Canada Goose Accountability

So, I saw the NTA president's report mentioned here the other day, and finally got our magazine and read it. It's a fairly long article, and although Chris and I usually don't see eye to eye, I agree with him 100% on this issue.

Basically, most of you have probably heard mentioned on here before about Canada Goose and their accountability labeling. Due to pressure from the antis, they want to be able to say that their fur was humanely caught.

Now, it appears their plan is to send a representative from Canada Goose to every state that allows them to, and go on the line with 5 trappers from that state, to see if the fur is being humanely caught. If it is, the representative will then certify that state as being a humane state, and that state's trapper's association will be given "humane fur" tags to distribute however they want to the association members, who can then use the tags to tag their furs before selling. Idea being, humane fur will bring a higher price on the auctions, and from the other buyers, than untagged, "inhumane" fur.

The NTA president's stance appears to be against this plan, as I would have thought everyone would be. I mean, what could possibly go wrong here?

They wont have to do that here,we have been harvesting with Traps that comply to the international certified humane standards for 20 years or so.We were the first country to do so under the international agreement and were instrumental in developing the humane traps and standards that we are so proud of here.
One of our early OTA presidents,the great Alcide Giroux who passed away recently and an Icon in Canadian fur trapping circles actually kick started the The Humane trapping movement in Canada and supplied seed money to the FIC to leverage money from the governments to get the state of the art trap testing facility in Vegreville Alberta up and running.This facility is responsible for the majority of great certified killing traps that trappers have in their hands today.

Sounds like they know our states will tell them to pound sand, so they're going to follow a couple hand picked trappers to certify a whole state. Interesting

And then use that "certification" to pressure the state into making their preferred methods required. Just the next step in NAFA's "certified trapper" program.

What happens if they see the same stuff that's on utube,lol.

Yes, Boco, I'm aware that Canada bowed down to the EU long ago.

I wouldn't be too happy Boco. They might see our 24hr check laws as agood thing or our cable restraints as better than snares and come after some of your methods.

No we were well ahead of the EU.We started humane trapping before the EU thought they could shut down trapping.Little did they know we were way ahead and had traps that far exceeded what they thought no one could achieve.
Alcide was a visionary.A great man.

Is it unreasonable to keep an end-user customer happy? The one hot fur in North America is coyotes largely because of this customer.

Looking at the bigger picture, traps in the US have done little to get ahead of the PR problems that have ended trapping in several states. The gameplan has always been reactive, which is too late.

Just how long do you think you can keep snares as "non-comercial" Boco? You better get your head out of the sand because the antis are not satisfied. Their objective was to stop trapping period, they didn't give a rats behind about "humane". A seeing eye dog is inhumane to these nuts.

No boco Canada and Russia threw the U.S.A under the bus on that deal, but re write history how you want.

Hopefully Canada Goose won't be able to find any coyotes for their over priced junk they sell to yuppie's!

But im sure many states will cave to their demands so down another slippery slope we go.

I think it IS unreasonable to keep ONE customer happy if they can dictate your entire method of operation. Camel, nose, tent.

So let me see if I get this correct. Some anti trappers are going to follow some trappers around from different states and then if all is ok they will certified them as a humane trapping state!
Personally I can do that myself. I don't need to give an anti the so called authority to give me permission to do what I know is humane and biologically sound.
Who comes up with the stupid stuff anyway?

And as far as the trapping BMPs, they are good information on trapping. We spent a lot of good money to work on BMPs so the dang EU would buy our fur. Well that was money well spent.
In the words of the famous and Southern icon, Earl Pitts, "WAKE UP AMERICA"

Except they are not dictating anything other than their own buying preferences. And they have significantly expanded the end user market in North America.

Well that is the question though. Although they have said they don't want to force any one to change any laws... their mission statement on their website says otherwise. It states they will only use fur that was caught using AIHTS or BMP methods. No states mandate BMPs currently.

Snares are an extremely humane device,except those set by untrained wahoos.(like any trapping device)
A ram snare or one with a kill spring set properly will kill quicker than a 330.
A snare can also be constructed and set to humanely hold an animal alive so long as check times are not too long.
J trap nobody threw the americans under any bus,you negotiated a separate agreement on your own.Trump can get you out of it if you don't like it,hes good at not living up to international agreements.

And now we're back to White's comment to mine at the begining.

Who knows what laws this company might decide is "humane" to them, and what laws they may try to push. Maybe even on the unsuspecting Boco.

You are right there. But once they are seen as having the ability to say AYE or NAY to a state...they will also have the ability to set prices. Once they become the sole or preferred buyer, then they can control prices.

You convinced me Boco. How about the bunny huggers? They think they're inhumane. They are the ones that you have to convince. Good luck.

Next thing they'll want is a death certificate filled out by a veterinarian.

If that were the case, they would already be setting prices. In fact, you could argue the opposite. If they eliminate potential suppliers, then the prices will go up for the remaining suppliers, especially if demand goes up.

You could very well be right . Hopefully so !

The veterinarian necropsys are all a part of the certification of the traps,to determine if the traps meet the time of death parameters

Unless the veterinarian, or the Canada Goose representative is standing by the trap 24 hours a day...........how is he to determine whether the trap meets the Euroweenie standards or not ?

That assumes quite a bit. First, that your state association agrees to allow the reps on their trapper's traplines. Then, that all five of those trappers pass Canada's Gooses standards of what humane is. If both of those things happen, members of those associations can get their tags, but that doesn't eliminate any suppliers. The trappers in that state that are not assn members, and the trappers in other states that did not agree, or failed the test, will still be sending their furs in. Canada Goose may not buy those furs, but I guarantee the people in China and Russia could care less, and will still be buying them as they always have.

If Canada Goose is going to get high bid on the humane furs, why wouldn't the other countries just let them have them, and buy the normal furs for a normal amount? Any states that do this, all it is doing, is allowing their trappers to sell furs to one company that other trappers MIGHT not be able to sell to. I say might, because if CG can't get enough humane coyotes from Canadian trappers, I bet they'd still be buying those uncertified US furs.

Russian fur is already traceable to country of origin and certified.So is European fur(mostly ranched)That is why it is carried in the fur salons in the large cities of Usa and Europe and Russia.
North American fur is absent in these salons because it is not yet traceable and certified.Nafa and other in the international fur trade groups want north American fur to be able to compete,thus the upcoming traceability and certification.

Really this should have been done long ago we are now sucking the hind teat to the Europeans and Russians in the marketplace.

I'm SHOCKED Angela !! It's a Canadian company. OF COURSE they'd only do the right thing and pay more !!

Coyote market is far from great. A very small part of the world produces pale heavies. The rest of them are just banging along like they have been for the last couple decades. I'm not to worried about what Canada goose thinks about the way I trap. I can look myself in the eye, without hesitation, when I shave of a morning. I know I don't torture them and that's good enough for me. If they don't want my coyotes they don't have to buy them. If 100 coyotes get to where they will buy a new 4wd pickup again I may be a little more willing to prove I don't torture animals.

Here is another point to keep in mind. How long until the Canada Goose coyote trim fad wears off? If anyone thinks it will last for more than a couple of more years I will put a $100 bill down that says it doesnt. Fashion is a fickle thing, all it really takes is a few "special people" to declare that coyote trim is no longer "IN". With that said I am glad Canada Goose has been able to provide a bump to the coyote market, but lets be real it is only a bump.

Neyotetrapper
My thoughts as well^^^^^^^^^

Excellent point !

Well our mangy, wire-haired, red tinted coyotes wouldn't be worth much to Canada Goose if we caught them with a feather pillow, shampooed them, and did their nails before we finished them.

I think any State that agrees to this is playing with fire.

Fair point.

They know our trapping laws, or could find them on-line very easy.

I'd like to where they're headed with this. To change some laws or just put a good face on the status quo.

We forget so fast. Doesn't anyone remember the fiasco a the trapper got into taking along a filming crew? You can have the most humane foothold going with all the bells and whistles and still get poor results if they tangle on a backing froze down or any of a number of other things.

When we have non trappers dictate to us our methods as well as tools we are allowed to use it is a losing proposition. Waterheads do happen from time to time in properly set snares for example.

Coyotes have been fairly strong for almost a decade. It started before the CG fad and it's not only CG driving that market.

Exactly how many total coyotes did CG buy this year? Looking at their website and all the garments with no fur and how little fur is on the garments with a coyote ruff, I'd guess not very many?

There's a heaping helping of truth here. I've seen it first hand too.

Happy and Healthy Independence Day to all us Americans.

How many here can remember the Eddie Bauer fiasco? That company said that they would only use coyotes that had been hunted and not trapped in an attempt to appease the ARF'S. It still wasn't enough for them, they wanted Bauer to not use ANY fur.

The animal rights industry is our mortal enemy. They advocate for the elimination of what we do. To attempt to "compromise" with somebody who is seeking to extinguish your very existence is nothing more than self-destruction on the installment plan.

Canada Goose is going to find this out the hard way, I'm afraid.

LOL, if you got a brain cell in that head of yours please give it back to the person you have barrowed it from. I guess you are completely unaware of the BMP testing that has been done in the US ?? I would have thought someone who claims to be all knowing of things trapping would have been privy to such actions. You act like the trappers in the US have been doing nothing over the last several decades, and that we all live in caves, and just discovered fire. Maybe you should learn a little more about what trappers in the US have done in regards to animal welfare, before you toss us under the bus again like before.


Another reason the auction house are pushing this is because of ranch goods. China was knocking off labels left and right, and the ranchers wanted goods certified in order to help limit the knock off's of cheap Chinese goods. So thank the ranchers for this certification BS as well people. This is what happens when trappers let ranchers market their goods.


People this is not a good thing, and will only help drive a wedge between trappers. This will in no doubt if implemented effect the recruitment numbers of new trappers in the future. Just another hurdle upon the already most heavily restricted outdoor activity we have today. I would also like to point out that many of the regulations/restrictions we have in place today come about with the help of trappers, and wildlife professionals working together. Your state, national, and even local associations, have worked with many state DNR's, and Dept's. of wildlife, and to toss all that work out the window, just because some company offers a few bits of silver, no thank you



Boco, need directions to your dumpster ???



RTT

You know where it is headed, just look at the change in the resent wording. It started out as certification, but now its labeled as accountability. I bet James our house lawyer could drive a truck between those two meanings.

RTT

Keep in mind people, Canadian Goose is a publicly traded company, and the BOD of that company is able to change direction anytime they feel it's in the best interest of it's shareholders. Poof, it could be gone in a blink of an eye !!



RTT

Accountability may have been my own word, although I believe I've heard that word used regarding this issue. The word used in the article was "traceabilty".

[/quote]

Accountability may have been my own word, although I believe I've heard that word used regarding this issue. The word used in the article was "traceabilty". [/quote]




Angela, like you I have heard the same thing, and yes the articles I seen at first said traceability. Neither is a good thing for trappers. I'm unable to wrap my head around the idea that by regulating the snot out of my fellow trapper it makes things better, and what does this do to trapper recruitment ?? We are already in an uphill battle there, so do we need another challenge in that department ?? This is something to help a few, and they are putting the spin upon it, and acting all righteous at the same time, and acting like the US trappers have done nothing. Funny how this always seems to come up during market turmoil.


RTT

. You can darn sure keep your thoughts about president Trump to yourself on this AMERICAN site if you have negative words to say about him! To the business though...... this is like me ropin a cow out in the pasture..... tied off..... horse aint ever been roped off....... You get the gist here, headed for a train wreck.

Definantly agree with ringtail trapper! A big black eye or possibky worst than that for the trapping industry is not worth satisfying a company like CG that is here today and coukd be gone tommorow. Again..... headed for a trainwreck here boys.

Sorry about Boco. He lives in a free country where criticism and free speech about anyone, including leaders is ok and welcomed. Heck, please make fun of our leader, he's a tool. Our bad, didn't realize it wasn't ok there...

Only one that goes with me is my dog and he ain't talking. Give me 60 bucks for one and nafa give them 30 for four bucks each. Make more money on their butt glands and heads. Money in killin them not undressing them around here. Let CG kiss their butts.

Sorry about Boco. He lives in a free country where criticism and free speech about anyone, including leaders is ok and welcomed. Heck, please make fun of our leader, he's a tool. Our bad, didn't realize it wasn't ok there..

It's in the interests of civility and decorum that I refrained from criticizing Trudeau. Besides, I figured that he's your problem, not ours. Now that I see that we both agree that Trudeau is indeed a tool and you say its OK to disparage him, I'll start (But where do I begin?). Is this a special permission good only today because it's our Independence Day, or can we continue until you Canadians wise up and vote the useless socialist-leaning tool out?

I thought the purpose of trapper education courses, required to get a license in some states, was to teach proper/humane trapping methods. There is the certification CG needs. Don't reckon they'll be visiting AR to get their hands on our lovely coyotes.

Really, you aren't making this up...? Did you feel any pain when the "traceability" people removed your nuts...?

P.S. So, it probably goes without saying that a single bullet is not "humane"...?

[/quote]

Sorry about Boco. He lives in a free country where criticism and free speech about anyone, including leaders is ok and welcomed. Heck, please make fun of our leader, he's a tool. Our bad, didn't realize it wasn't ok there...

[/quote]



Hutchy, Don't apologize for Boco !! You know its not the free speech, or criticism that bothers people when it comes to Boco, so drop that line of bull right in the dirt were it belongs. I have disagreed with him upon certification from the start, and have disagreed with it when it has been brought up in the past, so my position is clear as day, just as Boco's. Ridiculing our President is something that brings no value to the table in regards to a discussion about certification, but yet Boco thought it just fine to travel down that road., that approach speaks volumes. Boco's remarks are also insulting to so many people that have worked tirelessly upon many matters over the past several decades, and animal welfare as he speaks of has been front and center for many associations all across our country, national and state. He gives off the persona that we trappers in the US have done nothing, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Who in their right mind would agree to certification for access to only a temporary market at best ??


RTT

I'll let em ride for 500 a day and hope I blank for at least 2 days to proove that we already use humane equipment, that the coyotes themselves forced us to use just to hold em long ago.
One stipulation they must be blind folded until a catch is made...

Yep Marty, and look at how the fishing industry is laden with regulations, and quota's, and how every fisherman complains about those regulations, and quota's, and how it has limited the number of boats in operation anymore. Sustainability for a food source is by far a whole different matter as well Marty. I don't think CG's interest in certification has anything to due with coyotes as a food source, but more to due with public perception in regards with animal welfare. Sustainability, and traceability/accountability are very different things.



RTT

Not only that but does anyone believe that the coyote population is NOT sustainable ? Do we really need to have that discussion ?

how many do they actually buy in a year???

how many trappers directly benefit from them??

I'd guess lots and I benefit. If they only want certified coyotes and that's where the market is headed I'll go along. If the us decides not to then even better cause that makes mine even more valuable. You guys need to get with the times and stop fighting change.

no thanx,and i am happy for you,dont get me wrong.

...or we could stand together and tell CG to go pound sand. Never the less, the allure of the mighty dollar will drive another nail in the trade of fur trapping.

If you people think for one minute that CG is going to pay a higher price for "traceable" coyotes you are fooling yourself. They are a business they won't pay one penny more for a skin than they have to. If they are the only ones bidding on these "traceable" coyotes they will go cheap. I haven't seen where they have bought a top lot to this date. Think about it if they had to have "traceable" fur to satisfy their customers they wouldn't have sold as many fur trimmed garments as they have already. They are trying to satisfy the antis, which is impossible. A better approach would be to market their product as a environmentally sound, renewable resource.

...get with the times? times are changing fast! I am hearing one more good year for coyotes ....then you going to have a poor market with a bunch of unneeded and unwanted trapping restrictions to deal with! and once they are in place, they wont go away with the coyote prices. you get to keep those restrictions....we already have enough regulations in place to warrant what there asking of us. fashion trends seldom last lol.....but restrictions do! the largest percentage of heavy western coyotes in snow country aren't trapped anyway...most come from snaring and hunting!

Well we're already pretty much doing everything they want up here anyway so whatever. And I doubt coyotes are gonna crash anytime soon unless we tell people to go pound sand and they start buying ranched blue fox instead. Canada goose just announced not long ago that they're expanding into china with two new stores opening this fall.

we will see lol do you thing china cares about traceability?

Pfft I don't think China cares about anything. Canada goose who started the whole thing does though. And apparently the rest of the world does.

CG cares about proffit per share or the CEO is out the door.

No disrespect to our friends to the north, but thinking about this i see no reason for ya'll supporting this. Is it to qualify your accepting and spending all that time and money on AIHTS?

I don't see any difference in our traps/snares (talking Coyote trapping) compared to yours that amount to a hill of beans, other than we didn't spend money and sign some agreement. Are your snares marked? No.

Like i said earlier, carefull what you wish for, you may end up with our stupid (and more humane) laws like a 24hr check.

Tell me what is better about your trapping methods that you support a private company dictating your trapping.

Absolutely nothing. But if they want to call me a certified humane trapper or whatever they want I'll sign a paper saying I am, why not. Like I said it's stuff were all pretty much doing anyway.

It never has been about persuading antis.I cant believe so many don't understand that.The antis put out BS propaganda about trapping practices that have been illegal for 50 years.Trappers know for a fact that this propaganda is pure lies,but the general public that wants to buy our finished product does not.cg and other manufacturers could care less about harvest methods,but the buyers of their product in North America and Europe do.
If they cant prove and certify to the general public(not the antis) what we as trappers know already,that is, that what we do is humane and up to current international standards,then they cant sell their product in a lot of markets,because the retailers wont carry it.
More and more of the larger fur salons are not carrying garments that don't have traceable and certified labels on them.
Next time you go to larger cities like NY,Chicago,Toronto etc go into saks, The bay, and other fur salons that carry the top manufactured fur garments and look at the labels.It is all certified + traceable garments from Europe and Russia.Nothing from North America,because our product is not yet c+t labelled.
And as was mentioned this is indeed all about marketing to the modern consumers,who have no qualms about buying fur as long as they know it is humanely harvested and certified as not from an endangered species.

consumer smoke screen .....same one they are pushing with organic food products lol

Some fur buyers are already tagging yotes by state now.

Just more to make trapping less profitable .

Certifacation is only worth the value of the tag it's printed on. How in the world could they verify thousands of coyotes? You trappers that have more than 24 hour checks will end up with 24 hour checks like most states east of the Misssisipi. Therefore your cost of production and effeicientcy will go south quick. In reality they should already label all species.....

They don't certify the animal they certify the source.No one is looking at any expanded regulation.You have your BMP's we have AIHTS.

They are working on a method of certifying what we already do.

why? .....been doing that with bobcats for years (cities tag)....quality is what sells. most fur buyers can tell what state or area that they came from by looking at the quality of the pelt. and if you cant , well what state would you like me to say there from?!!!!)))

Oh I bet Russia has a very good program on certifying humane trapping standards. Get real.

Yes they do,they are under the AIHTS agreement like Canada,and they have gone to C+T already.Their incentive was to stop smuggling and tax avoidance.

I have been trapping coyote with rams for years. And let me tell you, shyte happens as well! I got 1 last year that tangled the ram up and got slack on the snare and lived quite a while. A hip caught one last year was not a pretty sight, messy catch circle.95 percent are dead, I've had two drop on the spot, not a Reich made, no mark in the snow. But about once a year it happens if u trap enough. I personally think our province quickly made the ram the only legal device simply to appease the antis, to heck with the trappers opinion, and his ability to use his tools humanely and just use common sense. I have used senneker snares as well and they put big dogs down fast. Yet they are illegal without a permit. What we use here is dictated by people who never even see a trap set. It makes no sense, they should let the trappers, who have the experience, decide what is ethical, at least to some degree.

Incorrect. We have BMPs, but they are guidelines, not mandates. Mandating BMPs WOULD be expanded regulation. Including not being able to snare any of those pale heavies....

two totally different agendas there boco lol

*Twitch

*Twitch

If I have a coyote that grades heavy right with the westerns and I do have a few, what will the certified source be? By grade or state??

Boco do you really believe that the Russians aren't cheating by saying their stuff is "certified & traceable"...? There IS a difference between free nations and autocratic ones where the gov or in Russia's case the gov and its sanctioned mafia on how things play out. Have you ever heard of "Potemkin villages"...? Maybe you should take a course in Russian history. They may have some saps from the EU follow them around but that doesn't mean its reality compared to free trappers in the US and Canada obeying regs. If your high-fashion fur buyers in Saks, the Bay etc. believe the Russians are actually really doing everything "humanely", then I guess they can live with the fantasies in their heads.

There was a well known American showman named P.T. Barnum judged the overall human population by a quote that said, "There's a sucker born every minute..."

Happy Independence Day, USA!!!

If you believe that I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you. They singed a piece of paper to get their fur OK'ed. Humane trapping standards, come on, they can't even be humane to their own people

...x2 I agree....boco claims it was not done to appease the antis up north though.

True. There is all kinds of stuff labeled "non-GMO" that has never been close to being genetically modified. Putting that label on makes stupid people feel better, I guess.
CG wants the same effect for their products, but at no cost or risk to them, of course.

From what I was told by a CG rep the fur is the last step. They have checked farms where they get the down. They have checked the material manufactures to make sure that there is no slave or child labor, they have checked the zipper manufacture. CG is driving the coyote market from what I am told. I don't think CG wants to rewrite every states trapping regs. To start with they can't, any more than a trapping association can tell me who can or can't ride on my line for what ever reason. They can both suggest, and request, but that's it. I feel this is going to happen with or without you.
Look at how much fur LL Bean has in its catalog now. I know a buyer that lost the sale of 1000's of coyotes a year over that "tell them to pound sand" deal.

Your the first Canadian making sense of this matter. Why anyone, even Boco who is infallible, would invite scrutiny of their trapping is hard to understand.

CG know exactly what and how we do what we do, there is no good to become of this. And it may not be us in the U.S. that pay the price, contrary to what some believe.

I'd shake that fur buyers hand for standing his ground. Not many people have the nads to do that anymore.

My thoughts as well, those lots will be separated into a totally different catalog of traceable fur, there will be the same quality of untraceable fur just in another catalog. You will loose competition on the auction floor and will see a significant price drop

It sounds as though Idaho may already be on board with this.

.....x2...if all buyers should take that stand....rather than hide behind a smoke screen and just tell them what they want to hear.

MB,100% is not required for a device to pass the standard,because everyone knows shite happens,that is not an issue.Read it.(95 % is well within the standard)

I say boycott the auction houses that push this, and boycott trapping coyotes altogether. If you trap coyotes, and sell them to CG, then you have no spine. Do it for your fellow trapper, and the future of trapping as a whole.



RTT

Do you think CG would be the only one aloud to bid on the traceable fur, because it was what they wanted? I think most of you have no idea what is wanted. How can you say what you will do with out knowing what they want. How many of you have spoke to anyone from CG? Would you sign paper work saying you fur was taken following your states humane trapping regs?

CG wants what the consumer wants they can careless about common sense or what the trappers want and have to go through...all this for a consumer fashion trend that will probably change within a year or to? most of this crap comes from EU nations and Europe that consume very little fur compared to other countries that can careless about C and T..

I think most of us are basing our thoughts on what Canada Goose told the NTA president they wanted. Unless you're suggesting his report on the issue is inaccurate?

When we sign our trapping license, aren't we already signing a paper agreeing to harvest the animals by our state trapping regulations?

[/quote]
Do you think CG would be the only one aloud to bid on the traceable fur, because it was what they wanted? I think most of you have no idea what is wanted. How can you say what you will do with out knowing what they want. How many of you have spoke to anyone from CG? Would you sign paper work saying you fur was taken following your states humane trapping regs? [/quote]


Mark, yes there could maybe more companies wanting traceability, but CG is leading the charge, and there is reasoning behind that move as well. It would be nice for CG if they could pull this off, they would be know as an innovator within the industry, and a better perception with the publics eye. Mark, this will leave us hobbled, and regulated in the long run, and when the trend is over they will be gone. As to the question you posted about state humane regulations, well most states already have trapper education, and yes every time I purchase a license, then I already agree to terms, and regulations set forth within my state. The real question is if I have already done all that, then why does CG need more ?? You see Mark it will never be enough, and after certification there will be something new come along to limit even more numbers of trappers, or their goods. This is not the first time this issues has come up Mark, just after 87 the same BS showed its ugly head.


RTT

MJM, I think what is wanted is coyotes. It is obvious buy the prices that people are paying for them. For CG to infer that they will pay a higher price for "certified traceable" fur is disingenuous, only if they have some one to bid against them will this happen. As far as signing a paper as to the humane harvest, where does roadkill come in. I'm not trying to be a smart A, the best coyote a sold last year I picked up off the road. How do I certify that?

bingo!!!rtt

if all cg wants is the trapper/hunter to sign a statement saying fur was gathered ethically and legally id sign it. don't seem to me that's what they are after.

A trapper could set themselves up for a real fall with traceability/accountability, or what ever you wish to call it. You sign up, and somehow the company makes a claim against a trapper for not being in compliance, then what ?? Civil suit ?? Teepee2's road kill could cost him the farm !!

Just what a trapper needs legal problems.


RTT

We sign our permits, if all they wanted was compliance with our laws, they would not do or say anything. The paper work they want signed says that we meet some Canadian standard that is not applicable at all in the USA.

So Russia must supply nearly all the pale coyotes CG needs? Already certified and traceable.

I have no idea what the NTA president and CG said to each other. All I know is what I was told.
TeePee if it is legal to pick up a road kill would you be wrong saying it was legal fur? I feel everyone is way over thinking this. Again I don't think CG want to change your state trapping regs and hobble anyone, from what I was told.
tjm Color is a very small factor in the coyote market other than the top lot. Look at what heavy brown and dark browns are going for. The key is heavy.

hope I not going off topic to much here....but most trapping methods are much more humane than mother nature!....does consumers realize that! if not ,educations might be better then C and T, it has been 20 below zero and large chunks of ice floating down the river and the ducks and geese are out there swimming in it not bothering them at all...a coyote at 20 below zero that has not stopped traveling and moving for days, just to stay warm and probably hasn't ate for 2 or 3 days...OMG!!!lets put little booties on them and knit them some sweaters...lol I have chased coyotes off deer that they have taken down and ate half the hind quarters with the deer still alive. not trying to condone inhumane trapping in anyway shape or form but we are kinder than mother nature.... but most consumers live in a fantasy world...how do you appease that and justify that......comply to there fantasy world and there way thinking to make a couple bucks on short term fashion item....but when that fades, what then? C and T Is just a hidden agenda for what they are really after...

Ringtale the only farm I ever bought was made by Playschool, it was for my grandson. The next time I buy the farm you can read about it in the obits.

Goes with out saying that all Russian coyotes are Heavies.

So did CG buy over 50% of all coyote traded this year?

I’m sure others would bid on a few of the traceable lots, but why would they when they know that cg buyers can’t buy any of the other lots. You will loose competition on the auction floor therefore dropping prices. Why would I get in a bidding war with someone when I can buy the same thing over here for a cheaper price that the other guys not even allowed to look at. I’m sure certain lots will have competition no matter what but this is all just for the antis. I’m sure what they will do is just go after the main states where they want the heavy westerns from and focus there. Might even set up direct buying for their company through certified dealers or whatever but I guarantee you they only care about 8-10 states and Canada. They don’t have a single problem selling their product, just to try to appeal and give a little to the people wanting to shut them down.

The states will have to be certified and you will have to tag every coyote, record all your data. Just like cats. Sex, date killed, county, license number, your address, name, tag numbers, date tagged etc. get ready for a lot more paperwork and regs.

Your right I don't get many WH, but I do have a spine.


RTT

good thing I'M BATMAN

Like MJM stated I think most of you are over thinking this CG thing.
I know for certain that none of my WI coyotes will ever have a CG label on them. LOL

A spine but no brain a lower form of vertebrate,lol.

Brilliant, just what trappers need more BS. The hits just keep a coming, gee I can't wait to be shackled, and chained even more than we already are, sign me up I love the pain.


RTT

I think CG Is already buying most of It's coyotes from certain western buyers. Anyway that's what I heard.

I’m sure they are, it’s just going to make for a lot of paperwork for those buyers and trappers once they go through with it, I just hope it doesn’t mess with the regulations in those states that it applies to

Sir, I don't think your certified to make that assessment about my body, but thank you for your input. Now if you would please return to the dumpster from which you came, and would you please let the intelligent individuals having this conversation continue with out your interruption. Thank you Jellyfish, sorry Boco.



RTT

As stated earlier, yotes are already being tagged by the buyer as to State of origination. If anyone thinks this is the biggest threat to trapping they're delusional.

I am sure they didn't. They don't want the light low end coyotes. Those SW Mo coyotes won't make the trim they want. There are a lot of coyotes that won't make the trim they want. Heavy's is what they want.

RM, let them tag them all they want, but I'm not signing anything dealing with traceability, or accountability, when I already adhere to a long list of regulations/requirements set forth by the state I'm already licensed within ?? This certification process just fly's in the face of what professional wildlife biologist have already put into motion within most states. I have no desire to support any action that will somehow impose more hardship upon my fellow trapper, and those that do, well there is a special place for people like that.


RTT

Someone on a different site... who also claimed that they had been talked to by the CG people personally.... said this only applies to 5 states. He also said that they were contracting trappers from associations to serve as their auditors... the ones going on the line with the chosen 5 trappers. Which doesn't make much sense to me. Supposedly George Brady of Washington is to be one of those auditors.

RTT, I agree. The problem is those that pay the piper call the tune. Now if all yote trappers quit for a year, that would shift things around a bit. But with $100 averages in some areas, that's not happening. I can't wait to see how CG likes the Chinese making knockoff coats using coon fur and horse feathers and copying their labels.

So if I head out to trap some pale heavy's, send them to a big auction, CG won't buy them? That's funny.

Boco, I know the standards. 8 of 10 dead in 3.5 minutes. We all know that despite our best efforts, sometimes undesirable catches are made. But Joe public doesn't want to hear that and CG sure isn't gonna tell him that. What if it happens with a traceability guy on your line? I'd say the men on here have better morals than most other subcultures, yet we are called cavemen. Look at the pride with which many trappers here modify their traps with shock springs, laminations and extra swivels to avoid hurting the coyote, but are accused of torturing it. I understand CG doing it to sell more coyote garments, but I wish they would stand up for us and say "Enough! Trappers are humans with and have feeling and passion and compassion as well, they are doing their best. Don't buy the coat if you don't want it" If the price of my coyotes goes down some, fine. Many better trappers than me are getting a lot less for their coyote. Not to mention anything else they catch.

RM,that was the primary reason Russia went to C+T,to stop the low quality junk smuggled in from china labelled as something else.I'm sure CG is well versed on all the benefits of C+T.

Russia has a special way of dealing with things, so comparing what CG is doing to Russia actions is like comparing our US Marines to the girl scouts. C&T, stands for crap, and trash.


RTT

No it is good in many ways,and unfortunately for fossils like you it is coming anyway,and not just coyotes.

I didn't read the whole thread just browsed over it but, there is a lot of mis-information being spread and thought/opinions being blown out of proportion. As a long time agent of the Colorado Auction, I was approached 3 years ago by CG to listen to their thoughts for the the future. For the last 3 years I have been in contact regularly with CG regarding these issues. Last February at the Colorado auction we had a serious sit down with the powers that be and their concerns and future plans are as such. This is a compilation of the meeting just to some what inform the folks here.

CG wants/needs only the best heavy/Semi heavy pale coyotes, texture/softness is important.
as of late they are having trouble with the large lots at NAFA/FHA not containing quite what they are expecting/paying for. so to rectify this CG is approaching the western association auctions hoping the harvester will sign a tractability/humane take certificate upon consignment to the sale. If the state sale can get majority participation CG will buy direct from those sales, being able to inspect each pelt allows them to purchase exactly what they can use. The "ride along " plan was a thought never really meant to go to fruition but mentioned in passing. Certain folks over heard this thought at different get togethers and from there ballooned into "the sky is falling ". CG would has discussed sending folks to ride along to see what it takes to to get a pelt from prairie to parka, but there would be no ramifications or assessments regarding the harvester. CG is going above and beyond to work with coyote harvesters to make marketability better, crap fur will always be that to them so yes the 5-6 main western states are on there approach list. I will probably not post much more to this thread but this should help shed some light.

The only thing that will stop China counterfeiting is China and that ain't happening.

That sounds alot better, Thanks Monster Toms.

that's great ,i hope they attend the sales and they can find the coyotes they need. they can certify them after they buy them if they fill the need to. state laws already in place, to ensure humane methods of trapping. and that should be enough for GC. Colorado is already a cage only trapping state!..but they do put on one of the best fur sales in the west....they do a great job!

Well, this discussion is well and good, but the fact of the matter is that C.G. is now a publicly traded company. The bottom line is all that matters. Period.
Trappers know better than most that death is required for fur to be harvested. Trees die when you cut them down. Cattle die so we can eat them, etc.
I do my very best to use humane methods, but will never bend to someone who knows nothing about me, or my line.

This.

So if they want to improve the bottom line, how is that bad for trappers? It is not a zero sum gain scenario. It is more of a symbiotic relationship where each party benefit from the success of the other. And companies usually don't change much because they go public....same management, same business ethic, etc. Most of the time original owners continue to hold a very large stake in the company. Very few companies are business for reasons other than improving the bottom line. But reading this thread I tend to think a lot of trappers may be included in that minority.

How is it a symbiotic relationship, when one party is giving up rights forever, for a couple more dollars for the span of what may amount to 1 or 2 years?

whens the last time you went to cabelas if you don't think going public changes a business?

went to cabela's in KC awhile back to get a bullet mold. I knew they had the one I wanted as I called first. while there I asked a whetstone. the only thing they had worth buying was overpriced worksharps and some diamond hones. they did have some of those junk man made abrasive stones whatever they are called. Not a single natural oil stone to be found. Couldn't find a butchers steel either. Had a lot of knives that would work as a weapon but very few an outdoors person would find useful. I still shop in cabela's but it aint the same business as when the only store was in west NE. Kinda like Walmart in 1985 when sam Walton ran it all and what it has morphed into today.

Going public killed Cabelas.

That and selling the business to Bass Pro Shops.

Thanks Monster Toms, im sure your insight will be ignored and the mass's will continue off in what if's and pixie dust, lol.

I have long said NAFA fur grading is the worst on the planet and from your post that is what CG is having problems with as
well. But I really don't understand why they don't just attend western sales and buy what coyotes they want? They want to ride
along with a trapper just to see what all it takes to produce a pelt that's fine but I don't get why they want some piece of
paper signed when they buy pelts at your sale? I don't think it's for bad evil reason's like many here do after what you posted,
I just don't understand why they need that.

I spent yesterday speaking to about 60 young people from several western states about the equipment and methods we use in New Mexico, that they meet the BMP standards. I would sign a paper stating that same fact to Canada Goose, my concern is not what the ARF's think it is how the public percieves how how fur is produced. If Canada Goose is going to attend a sale so will my coyotes!

The reason is called appeasement. If you go to their page they say only fur caught using BMP. So if we are NOT fully using the BMP guidelines we will be blackballed?

Canada Gooose fur statement

The Canada Goose Fur Transparency Standard™ is our commitment to support the ethical, responsible and sustainable sourcing and use of real fur. The first traceability program to cover the wild habitat, it ensures that all fur sourced by Canada Goose is in accordance with the Agreement of International Humane Trapping Standards (AIHTS) in Canada and the Best Managed Practices (BMP) in the United States, and is fully traceable throughout the supply chain. The standard certifies that we never purchase fur from fur farms, never use fur from endangered animals, and only purchase fur from licensed North American trappers strictly regulated by state, provincial and federal standards. As of April 2017, all fur used in new Canada Goose products is fully traceable, and includes country of origin labelling.

I can appreciate what CG appears to be trying to accomplish, but I also think they are going about it the wrong way. It is a good thing IMO that they demonstrate a concern for the well fare of the resource via humane trapping methods and sustained use management, and that they want to convey that message to their customers and potential customers. It just seems to me that the way they are going about trying to accomplish that goal out of touch with the industry. They are garment manufactures and seem to be totally lacking in understanding about the fur industry.

Trappers and trapping associations, in both the USA and Canada, have been working together with State and Federal game biologist, game management agencies, scientist, veterinarians and basically all stake holders involved with the industry to develop and implement "Best Management Practices" for at least the last 40 years that I know of. Many millions of dollars have been invested and thousands upon thousands of hours spent towards improving tools and equipment and developing a balance of the most humane methods for the welfare of the animals while still allowing for the harvest of the resource in order to accomplish a sustained harvest via wise, realistic, game management practices. The things that have been learned through these studies have been incorporated into State and Provincial government trapping regulations. The importance of these practices are also being taught to trappers through out the industry via trapping schools made available to both new and experienced trappers through out North America. In short, it has been and still is an ongoing program that trapping industry as a whole is heavily invested in.

All this information is out there and available to CG. All they have to do is research it, write it up in a short professionally worded statement and make that statement available to their customers and consumers. It is a slap in the face of all trappers and Gov agencies that have invested so much time and money in this that CG does not recognize that effort and honor it. I suspect it is not a deliberate thing on their part but is being done more through ignorance than anything else. They don't have a clue about what all has went into getting to the point where we are today. The idea of going around to individual trappers and collecting statements for each individual fur item is pretty far fetched.

Neither Canada's AIHTS nor USA's BMP's are absolutely perfect systems. As with fur farming, the beef industry, fishing, hunting, or any other resource harvesting along those lines, there will always be instances where things did not go well or as planned. All we can do is keep striving to improve our methods and means while harvesting the resource and continue managing that resource on a sustained use basis.

It would be nice though to see CG and other clothing manufactures make use of the information that is already out there as a way to further educate the general public about the trapping industry's efforts to do things right through continued research, improved methods and continued sustained harvest management.

Very good post, I agree 100%

Nice post!

I agree another well thought out post.

Pete, appears from you posted from their website they're just laying to rest exactly where their fur comes from, it isn't ranch fur, isn't this or that, basically EVERY pelt produced in the U.S. is technically BMP approved! Granted a 'rat here and there in a beaver trap, etc. but over all the majority of animals are caught in traps set for them and the BMP's pretty much approved every trap we use.

I see all this as a formality more so than anything else. With that said the suspicion is well deserved because our past we have agreed to this or that and then as time goes by they come back with something else and something else to the point restriction's make it impossible to trap per how someone else feels we should.

In other words it's a slippery slope they're heading down. I doubt they fully understand that attempting to appease the people they're trying to appease won't work, they'll just dream up some other problem they have with their products and how they are produced.

EVERYONE on this thread im sure see's or worry's that is the case.

Yep

Well, Boco doesn't.

Snares are NOT approved by BMP or AIHTS nor are my modified traps that we both know are better Jackie.

There is a discussion on one of the Facebook groups where certain people are claiming that the BMP part will be changed to in accordance with state if that were true, why would they even bother with this push?

As to the snares, 3/32 And 1/8 snares 42-60 inches are Eastern coyote BMP approved.

But not Western coyotes, which is what this appears to be about.

Jackie.... you do know that the 1.5 coil spring (Duke, Bridger, Victor, etc) is not approved for coon, right? That is hands down the most used coon trap in America... and not BMP approved.

I don't know about your BMP agreement(I believe it is near the same),but under the AIHTS,snares are approved under the "home made device" derogation,and as such are regulated under the competent authorities(provincial wildlife managers) that are the signatorys to the agreement.
In other words if the provincial regs are followed it is good for the AIHTS.
Just as fox and mink are not listed species,they also fall under the regulation of the competent authority,and as such are good under the AIHTS.
And to repeat Ad-nauseum,it is not about appeasement of the antis,it is about providing certification and traceability to the public.C+T is one of the most powerful weapons to fight and refute the anti lies about fur harvesting in the public forum.
C+T go together,because in order for fur to be certified it has to be traceable thru the entire chain from producer to end user.

It's a glorified marketing campaign is what it boils down to. They'd probably have the same or better results saying they only use free range, organic furs. Any person that has a trace of being a skeptic can see what it is.

consumer smoke screen for a short lived fashion trend.

The only documentation that I know about that CG is asking of the western auctions, Signing your name stating "these pelts were harvested legally by state law". Thats it, nothing else, Lot of pot stirring going on here that doesn't need to happen. CG believes in "truth in advertising" they can only be as truthful as the information passed on to them. Doesn't matter how a coyote is harvested as long as you say it was legal.

If that's the case, I agree I wouldn't see any problem with it. But that's entirely different than what the NTA president said.

Click on the link, read the bottom of the bottom page (in Red) that is all they ask of us, With that they were happy.
http://coloradotrapper.com/2016-fur-auction-2/2018-fur-auction/

A statement of harvested legally is far different than traceability, so what do they want ?? They already have the traceability via the auction houses, they can tell who furs are in what lots already, and from where they were shipped.

The certification is the real problem. Put a few trappers on a pedestal, and give them a title, and see how quick they toss their fellow trapper under the bus. You wont be able to sell a pelt unless your in the click, that is what these clowns are looking to do, heck Boco said it himself, this is a marketing play. A marketing play with a way to control the whole enchilada. They want to have every trapper certified, this will certainly limit the number of trappers, thus easier to control. Kind of like what happen to the farmers in the 80's

The devil with certification, just look at what Boco said, they want this for all species. These clowns have an agenda, and that is market control for a few, and we know who the few would be. Fine trappers they are tossing their fellow trappers out in the cold. Darn Communist!!!




RTT

.......hasn't that already been in place for years? as with most of the other western auctions as well? that's your form not theres?

Must be very proud . Some countries are the first to put a man on the moon . Other countries...

That's our form yes, we added the dis-claimer to appease CG.

Like I said the only "certification" CG wants is that you the harvester are obeying the laws.

I see thanks for info...most sales have that dis-claimer also.

So Monstertoms, do you know anything about these ride-alongs on people's trap lines that Chris was talking about then?

Yes I explained it earlier. Most of CG's people are foreigners, the ride alongs are more to educate them as to what it takes to harvest coyotes and the processes from the harvester side. No judgments, no contention, just education for their people. Just like them sending folks to the different state sales to get an education on how things happen. They are enthralled with Colorado due to the diversity in fur that we offer, along with the ability to handle all types of fur from all over the country. If we treated them the way most of the posters here feel, It would be an interesting state of affairs.

let coyotes go out of fashion, and then see how enthralled they are.

RTT

I seen a post made prior to the western convention in MT this year looking for trappers that would be willing to let a CG rep. ride along with them. A spokesman from CG was supposedly going to be at the convention to answer any questions. I don't remember where I seen the post or if this even transpired at the western convention but maybe someone from MT can provide some insight.

You can certify anything anything. One of the dirtiest bycatch fisheries in Alaska. I'm not sure the bycatch thrown overboard dead is sustainable?

Canada Goose was marketing their coats as using only fur from "Certified Canadian Trappers" years ago. Seems to be a company willing to lie to sell product, so might not be any standards, just a lot of paper full of lies.

If educating CG is the goal, so that they better understand the industry so that they can better explain to the public how coyotes are harvested, it could serve to educate the public and help against the antis. If CG wants its people to better be able to help in the fight for trapping, and to educate the people that don't understand trapping I support that.
But I do not support more restrictions. As previously mentioned by several people, there are humane trapping standards already in place. Just look at the thousands of coyote harvested quickly and humanely with Rams, Senneker snares, And other snare variants. Not to mention all the ways leghold traps are modified for the coyote's benifit. If CG wants to get that info to the public, fine. A lot of anti trapping site say that coyote are ALL held for days in cruel traps, suffer from dehydration and die from "exposure". Wouldn't I love to inform the people that read that how most of my coyotes expire in my Rams in a minute or two, that it's certified to render 8 of ten animals irreversibly unconscious in 300 seconds or less.(correction of one of my previous posts) That's the polar opposite of what the antis claim. We need all the help we can get getting our side of the story out and if that is what CG wants to help with then that's good.

Back then CG was only buying from NAFA/FHA and were un-aware that the lots contained coyotes from all over. They made an assumption that since they were purchased in Canada that they were Canadian coyotes. This in turn is what began the ball rolling for this accountability so that they can advirtise truthfully.

I find it hard to believe buisnessmen were unaware an internatiol buisnesss dealt with more than one country

Danny, if you ever go to an international fur auction and talk to the buyers and manufacturers that attend one thing you find out is they don't know much other than what they intend to do with the skins they bought.

Well guys(and gals) I've been vocally leery about traceability since NAFA started to "push" it but after long consideration and talking to some pretty big players in the industry I've come to the conclusion we need to take a serious look at it and quite possibly embrace it.

I understand the trepidation that comes along with it but lets explore the flip side. Lets start with CG. Yes I said in an earlier post that CG isnt the only user of coyote but lets ask ourselves, where would the coyote market be with out CG, at what levels and what quantities? Where would the fur trade be without CG today, and yes I mean the whole trade. Think about it a little bit and not only of the trapper but where would the buyers and brokers be without the margins generated by the coyote trade.

Next maybe most of us don't/didnt' realize that CG produces more coats without fur trim than with. How come? My sources are telling me that can't and wont get enough coyote to meet demand. I've been told they are looking at other articles of wild fur but probably won't use it without traceablility. IF CG said we will take 250,000 trim quality raccoon but only if they come with traceability to ensure that there isn't any finncoon are we going to tell them to fly a kite?

To be so flippant to suggest we tell them to pound sand is nuts. We all should assess our paradigms in life on a regular basis and I'm am thinking more and more that traceability is coming whether we like it or not. The cattle producers are starting to do it, pork producers, fish producers, chicken, turkey, eggs and the list goes on and on.

I don't know what the answer is but I do know without a viable fur market trapping as most of us enjoy it is dead. I'm a fur trapper, always will be.

That should spur the debate, fire away.

It's not "flippant" to tell them to pound sand if, as it appeared before Monster Toms straightened out what they want, was the way it was headed. I won't chance allowing one company that may not be here ten years from now even suggesting law cahnges. It sure looked that way at first on this post.

I think it would be "flippant" to allow something like that to happen. We have our state agencies working with our trapping assn's keeping things on the up-and-up so we don't need what appeared to be an outside, no idea what we do company telling us. IMO of course.

(like i said a couple years ago when this first came up, all our laws and methods are easily found on line for them to either accept or deny our goods.)

Traceability, certification is already here in BMP and AIHTS. what more do they want? Ask every fur buyer to keep track of who caught each fur? Their idea of the ride alongs, then issue tags is asking for trouble. The auctions could provide the traceability, but at what expense,and who is going to pay for that? CG needs to realize that this issue has already been addressed. If we need to educate them on the fact maybe the NTA and FTA need to get involved. It is time to take the offense on this and not the defense.

.....I don't thinking telling them to pound sand is the answer. but what they are asking is already in place with the laws that are on the books. that should be enough, we already have BMp in place. that should be more than enough for honest advertising! if what monster toms claims that's all they want we are already doing that, change the wording from Canadian to north American and there good to go.....people that are clueless about trapping don't need to be riding along on the trapline. ,IMO and as for cattlemen go its hurting them more than doing any good.....countries that are not compling are selling more beef than we are because of C AND T!

anytime you advertise humane methods used for harvest, to the general public to hear that,an animal died regardless of method, (as does our food sources)to them hearing that will turn more away from buying than talked into buying. humane or not that animal died. the only difference in fur and food is everyone needs food, not the case with fur.i don't remember who posted early but said to advertise we only use free range organic fur.....true story leave it at that! CG will never appease the general public with there approach... fashion changes quickly and so will GC when it gone... leaving the trappers to sort out the mess!....you want to sell fur= buy or get some "BIG NAME" endorsements!!!

Or Fur harvested from sustainable populations with state of the art humane equipment. As it has been forever.

See, here's my thing.

MonsterToms and NTA President Chris McAllister, are saying two COMPLETELY different things in regards to this issue.

Now, I never met MonsterToms I don't think but I've known him from here, and I know Otis from the CO association and those guys have always seemed to be straight shooters and I have no reason to doubt what he's saying CG told them. As I said in the first post of this thread, I've not often agreed with Chris McAllister in the past, but I would hope he would have some idea what he's talking about before issuing the statement he did on behalf of the NTA.

But that still leaves the fact that there are two entirely different takeaways from two people who have sat down and discussed this issue with CG.... so how do we know what to believe? If both MonsterToms AND Chris are telling the truth, then that means CG is lying to one or the other of them.

yup agreed

From the OP, here's my thing. If only certain states got issued " humane" tags, makeing their fur more valuable, it would give those trappers an advantage over those places where CG isn't working as closely, and label furs "inhumane" where there are no tags issued, such as in Canada and other states, even if the methods used are perfectly humane, and even more humane than the States issued tags. The laws are already set for each state and province to make sure animals are humanely harvested. CG could just look these up and buy fur from those states and provinces who's regs they like.But if the coyotes the want come from states/provinces that CG doesn't like the regs and would seek to change them, that's what also would be a problem most here seem to think is coming.

You really think I would come on here and post what I have just to stir the pot? Not hardly! Like I said i'm here to pass on what has been passed around at our meetings, and set some of the BS to rest, whether these thoughts come to fruition is yet to be seen. At very least I would say I'm probably the only person that has posted that talks regularly with CG reps. you want to find out whats up call them, ask for their product compliance and safety specialist. Hard to understand on the phone but helpful.

I'm proud to say that CG noticed how Colorado's auction works, and APPROACHED US first and foremost to help build this coyote market, We can only hope that it continues.

As far as these "tags" this is the first I've heard of them. The only incentive passed to me is that with compliance by the Auction they will be "CG certified" meaning that furs purchased at that auction will be welcome for CG garments.

It is flippant. Yes, they could be gone in ten years or they could just as easily double their market. Now ask youself how owuld they do that when they can not get enough coyotes already. They will have to come up with new product lines that either include another form a wild fur or go without. Right now I'm being told they want to use sustainable wild fur. Lets hope they don't start looking at something lkke blue fox.

I'm being told they have an idea of what they would like but are very open to suggestions and it's a work in progress. Make no bones about it, they aren't doing it to appease the anti's. Anti's don't believe in sustainable, humane harvests.

All I'm saying is I think we need to keep an open mind and be a part of the process or it may just be dictated to us.

Wallfur, I hear what you are saying. I'm leery of taking anyone on the line with me, even the neighbor. Not because I have anyting to hide but that is my nature.

Dried up and dead.




But lets bite the hand that reaching out to us with a life raft, and don't be shy, be boisterous, and ignorantly savage about it.


To be honest this whole thread looks like an article from the Onion: "Producers Shut down only customer, for trying to do a better job and increase prices for those Producers."





I guess we can all be ADC Artists.

thanks for your post monster toms ..It was good info and I think helped set some people at ease....(me anyway)just hope GC follows through with what they told you.

not bashing GC marty.. just there approach, it is consumers that drive the market.

No! As I said in my last post I have zero reason to not believe what you posted.... in other words... I believe what you posted is what CG told you!

Get your hands on a copy of the most recent American Trapper and read McAllister's 3 page report on this. In it, he is the one who outlines exactly what I posted in the first thread. So unless he just made it up, CG must have told him and you entirely different things.

Ok... here. Sorry if the pictures aren't the best but you should be able to read it.

Like I said. When 100 Ks coyotes will buy a new 4wd pickup again I will be more willing to prove I'm not torturing animals.

If you have questions about what Canada Goose wants, I suggest talking to Canada Goose. All I know is what they told me when I spoke to them in MT. I have no questions at this time. I don't really have a clue what McAllister said in his report. I feel I ask enough questions that I agree with Monster Toms.
For those of you that don't know Marty B runs a route up through ND and MT buying for Petska. Maybe he has a clue too.
The bottom line is the buyer has the final say. He can make an offer or pass. He can raise his offer or tell you to pound sand. Keep that in mind. CG sells a lot of coats without fur. I would bet it would hurt us a lot more than them if they stop using coyotes for trim. It would be a lot easier to use ranch fox than fight with 10,000 trappers that don't know what is going on.
From what CG has told me I will sign.

thanks danny

signing a letter saying your law abiding is one thing. telling states bmp's have to incorporated into regs is another. ive no use anymore for nta but I think mccallister is telling the truth when he says cg is not the only player. they have raised the price on the top grade of coyotes but the ones I catch here are still averaging about 25 bucks. I can double that if I go a couple hundred miles west. put in the effort and miles to average 5 50 dollar coyotes a day and you ARE losing money. The best market right now is high grade western cats and the incidental coyotes are just gas money. That is 100% the truth.

....yup just read report and don't look like I can sell to marty no more!!!!!!unless he wants to pay my state association fee...as reguired to gets those covenant certified tags!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol not going to pay street price for those tags!

signing a letter saying your law abiding is one thing. telling states bmp's have to incorporated into regs is another.

X2. If it's for the first no problem, but if it's for the latter y'all western fellers should tell them to pound sand. Hopefully the information Monster Tom was given is the accurate info.

Thumbs up! im not caving in to anybody,but I'm not biting the hand that feeds us.In this matter,some would be better off thinking before you put your neanderthal foot into your stupid mouth

I attended the same meeting as Monstertom. So I wouldn't have to add anything. Personally, I wouldn't read further into it right now as it is discussion. I believe there main focus right now is point of origin.

If its a big issue to anyone I would suggest call the Compliance Office and get it straight from the horses mouth.

Anywho, I have a hot game of cornhole waiting on me, so I better not keep the competition waiting. Carry on.

I'm thinking it is a brokers job to find the furs a garment maker wants, not ours.
We get more than our share of the chores in this "industry".
But I'm just a Neanderthal lol.

This is a very good topic in my opinion, leaders here.

I need some remedial explanation please. In MonsterTom's first post it sounds as though CG is unhappy with two things. The lack of quantity AND moreso the grading. Toms also used the phrase.."if the auctions comply". ( Monster....not doubting anything you say here. Just confused)

So then Coloradocat uses the term "Compliance office"

What I would like to know is COMPLIANCE with WHAT and by WHOM ?

I guess I fail to see how having a trapper sign anything, will increase the quantity and grade of coyotes offered.

I might add to eliminate a lot of confusion in the coyote industry as well. CG is really only interested in coyotes from 6 states. Not that every state would produce a diamond in the rough, but those 6 states would produce the vast majority of the coyotes needed for there particular market and interest.

And no its not OK,AR,TX,GA,MO,MS.

I won, so Im waiting for my opponent in the championship round is why I jumped back on.LOL

knuckle dragger here also

Well darn I was hoping to come to y'all's sale in the next year or two. Guess I'll leave my AR coyotes at home.

Producing a lot of coyote for the market using cages ?

Maybe not a cage Aaron but a rifle still works.

Otis, the guys in western edges of MN are averaging near as much as you CO fellers. The Goose shouldn't look past us.

I guess one could always look at the business perspective of things. If you cant find a article or material that you need in your production, then you search out the best alternative market. Wouldn't that just be a pile if that alternative was blue fox.

The bottom line to me is this. CG will do whatever is needed to protect there interest and there customers, and the shareholders. There will be some who would probably comply, and some who certainly wouldn't. Shearling producers seem to be onboard, and the goose down producers seem to be on board. If they cant make the other one work, then refer to the above statement and you search out another article.

Or as a business you only do business with individuals or producers that are willing to comply, and hope they can produce enough to fill the need. And if not refer to the above statement again and search out a article that can.

You would be shocked to know the number of coyotes produced in Colorado

Yes sir, I no doubt would be. Compared to what other states in the six state Mecca ?

So are the guys in NY. One has to remember CG isn't the only game in town. CG has a specific article they want and need. Other knock offs need a different look as well.

Don't kill the messanger, just relaying what I was told. It really doesn't make two _____ to me.

I stated that CG was un happy with NAFA/FHA due to the lots not matching the sample. If the the western states auctions will comply with there wishes of legal take CG will certify said auctions as compliant. Thus purchasing the goods they need.

We would sure sell them, just probably not to CG. I don't think I said a word about your coyotes not having any value. Pretty sure I specifically said CG didn't think so.

This about sums it up as explained to me by a couple really big players in the game, if not the biggest. Trappers need to realize that CG produces more coats without coyote trim then with. Maybe they would just drop wild fur all together or hopefully we can get them to look at other articles. In my wildest dreams they'd switch to beaver. I'd be rich.

Otis or Todd can correct me if I'm wrong but another thing that was explained to me is the best of the best coyotes aren't necessarily going to CG. There are other users for that market.

I am told that CG has a price range they want to stay in and a certain quality within that range. Make no bones about but the lower end goods are brought up in price from the demand for those higher goods if other users want to utilize coyotes.

I'm with Phil, I've been looking at this kicking and screaming but I am also educating myself to what it is about. You know what the worst part of it for me is so far? I am finding myself agreeing a little bit with Boco. Ouch!

Angela, I'm thinking that of anyone in the country that has discussed this with CG the most, Monster Tom has to be right up there. I think it would behoove the NTA and other organizations to talk to the organizers of the CTA sale and get a feel for what the trend is. Let's get on top of this now and get a seat at the table drafting this stuff instead of being on the menu. BTW thank you for posting the report.

.....you make it sound like this will make the coyote market last forever if we get onboard...if it does where do I sign? and any market guarantee go with that?.... bottom line the consumers decide the market not GC...but I understand why they are promoting coyote. because that market could change anyday. and as with any business they can careless about what we have to deal with when they gone or the fashion trend shifts...thanks for the insight you guys at CTA posted here and if that clause is all they need signed.....well I can live with that because we are already doing that.

You keep playing cornhole, it may make two___P to yah buddy ha.

When CG decides to use good coon they are going to come a calling seeing as you feller can't produce enough.

It is always nice to know there is another voice of reason out there! If CG can buy the best for the right money they will use them. but like everything, big business has a budget, buy the best you can afford and move on. This is how tractor supply can trim coats bought with $10 coyotes.

I think your missing the point. Its not about the total number of coyotes produced in any of the 6 state mecca. Its the quality of coyotes that are produced in areas of that "6 state mecca".

Colorado has great coyotes and it has horrible coyotes. WY and MT are exactly the same.

I really don't think myself or Monstertom could really respond to who uses what in the industry from the auction standpoint. That would certainly push the privacy issue.

That being said, there are certainly HIGH END users above CG. The best of the best. As well as users who seek the lower end. It just depends on what your using it for I suppose.

I would say at Colorado there is certainly times that there isn't enough heavy coyotes to go around that the semi plus and semi type coyotes get pushed up. I think with a little time and research one could follow the auctions and sort the grades out and somewhat figure out who was using what.

I wouldn't call me a voice of reason. If you would have asked me a week ago what I thought about traceability I would have said pound sand. That is until I received a phone call a couple days ago that made me rethink my position. I've made several calls since trying to educate myself on what they want and what direction the markets could be heading. I think one of these days you and I need to talk and you can educate me some more.

But I digress you were speaking about economics and margins. One would think that when CG is charging 700 dollars on up for a parka it wouldnt matter if a coyote costs more but it's all about managing costs and margins. That's over the head of most trappers.

Boy, we could really throw a flop in this and ask how many coyotes does CG actually buy? There are a few that knows the answer.

I'll take a guess and you know exactly what I'm going to say! Seben!

I thought you went to bed at 10?

Heavy coon is where it's going to be at, bleach and dye, looks as good as a semi. hvy

coon are as silky to...a whole lot cheaper....a lot more of them...99% of consumers cant tell the difference when its on the coat collar..hummmm .....no way! wont happen! coon are not C and T!! lol

eventually,and sooner than i wanna believe,we are gonna have to go to ADC if you wanna profit from trapping as i believe fur sales will never see levels of the past.nobody wants to think it but seems more realistic every season now.

That or we'll all be using cage traps when a buyer says we need to.

too old to learn new tricks.

Been that way in the south for some time. It's possible to profit down here selling fur,meat,glands,etc. but not much of a profit. As for coyotes unless paid to catch them or selling them live, they are losing proposition.

I asked Boco earlier if a single bullet is considered "humane" in any of the international "humane" standards but he failed to answer. So, does anyone know the answer? Can any shot furbearer be considered "humanely" harvested according to the rules...?

NonPCfed brings up an unusual but pertinent point....what's next....dictating the round and caliber coyotes can be hunted with...goofy! Dead is dead....

I agree. I also think they should have done so before issuing the statement they did, if they haven't.

If allowed, I'm sure the bullets will have to be full copper or something "non-toxic". I better buy some Barnes bullet stock. I need to go do some work outside before it gets hot.

With this I will exit,

I went over the article and my take is that Chris took alot of CG's thoughts and brainstorming ideas (some of which may have been passed to him as hear say) and printed them as gospel. From there folks have in turn amplified the intent into a S&%^$ storm of personal belief.

My original posts were made from MY/Our face to face with CG reps, no second hand info or day after opinion. Everything I have posted were put to us as thoughts and questions, nothing set in stone.

When Otis, CG, and I meet this last February, Quite a few ideas and intents where thrown on the table. Having boots on the ground real world harvesting, processing and auction experience allowed Otis and I to quell some of CG's un-realistic thoughts.

CG has there reasoning behind only wanting to use certain fur at this time, but their team is delving into other wild fur avenues as the knock off market increases.

No other furrier based entity is reaching out to the harvester, as CG is. They started the market climb for coyotes, the knock offs are helping sustain it. Agree or disagree changes are coming good bad? I for one am trying to stay ahead of the game and stay in touch with the markets. I am willing to work with any company promoting wild fur. If the Colorado auction reaps the benefit great, if Todd does, even better.

I am not aware of any official statement that CG has made other than they want a signed form saying that coyotes are harvested in a legal, and sustainable manner. The form being passed around as of now is benign.

Otherwise all I am hearing from folks is they are throwing out brainstorming ideas trying to see what is possible and sensible.

OK. I know you said this will be it. Then you say changes are coming. My point is these changes came long ago. A lot of money and time has been invested BMP and AIHTS. On the CG web page pertaining to traceability they state that all fur is harvested under AIHTS or BMP. You also state that at one time CG had "unrealistic thoughts". CG has to realize trappers and fur harvesters in North America have been fighting against these "unrealistic thoughts" for a long time. The only change I see as needed is the way the use of natural products, fur in particular, is perceived. CG does a very good job of explaining how the use of down and fur is the best ingredient for their product. Nothing manmade can offer the comfort and warmth in their expedition clothing. It is stated also that they are expanding their clothing line. Now if we can get them to see the beauty and style of wild fur, the sky is the limit. There is nothing wrong with a person , man or woman looking good and staying warm.WE are natural, we are green, we are renewable. WE ARE TRAPPERS.

I should have been more specific. The "they" I was referencing was the NTA. More specifically, Chris.



Thank you for your insight into all of this. I made this post based on McAllister's article alone. I made it because I wanted to see some discussion on it, and I think we've had a great discussion here on it and learned a lot more than what we all knew from just reading that one article. I trap for the live market, so literally have no skin in the coyote game either way. I DON'T want to see BMPs mandated in any state though, as that would set a precedent that wouldn't be good, and that was how Chris' article made it seem. I'm glad to hear that in your talks with CG, it would seem that isn't the case. The statement y'all added to your auction form is completely harmless, and IF that is all CG is wanting from states, than all of this really has been much ado about nothing.

my take and i'm also done.after sending a donation or 2 out west where the good coyotes are,to help fight anti battles,seems they have forgot who has helped protect their rights and have no problem pushin us in front of the bus.

This is what is on the membership application for the New Mexico Trappers Association


"The NMTA expects its members to be: lawful, always following NM trapping statutes and rules; respectful / thoughtful of other trappers, users, and landowners; and ever diligent in improving their equipment and techniques to ensure the ethical capture, treatment and / or dispatch of the animals they encounter on the trap line.”

I think our fur auction should satisfy Canada Goose

Has anyone else payed attention to the date that cg posted in the article. It’s says that cg guarantees everything is guaranteed harvested humanely or whatever after April of 2017. If that’s the case then they just wrote something down on a piece of paper to please some people. Nothing changed for anyone? We’re talkin bout this in July 2018. They already signed the paper 16 months ago if I’m reading that right

Greg, my understanding is there has been some changes, maybe more so at the direct sellers to CG.

PCR, are you comparing CG to antis?

Non PCFed,I missed your question. The T in AIHTS refers to trapping.Set Guns as a trap method for taking fur bearers is not allowed in any jurisdictions I know of.


Hunting of course is regulated by the competent authority(provincial wildlife managers here),and shooting with a firearm is considered by veterinary pathologists one of the most humane ways to harvest.

We are allowed under our trapping licence to use a firearm to take fur,as well as small game on our registered traplines here.

That's odd, you call me "FLIPPANT" when you'd have said exactly (pound sand) what i did before Monster toms added info.
I'd call that hypocrisy. I guess you don't understand the word "if" in my posts.

People can call me whatever, even a neanderthal but ya'll will never be able to call me a "sell-out" for a couple dollars.

See my "if" and "before Monster Toms" in your quote of me? Same thing your saying.

I'll add this and then i'll bow out to the powers to be.....

At least ya'll who are talking to these people MIGHT have learned from a couple of us that we all don't want to become a cage state to sell furs for a couple dollars extra.

SHOULD IT COME TO THAT.

So is there any way that we could sell illegally harvested fur without lying about it??
And if we do lie about it would the end user be able to tell the difference? Point is all CG or any other user needs to know about the legality of the harvest is that the fur could not be for sale other wise.

The gist of what CG wants now according to Monster Toms posts are far different than what they wanted according to the NAFA stuff a year ago and according to the GFW form a then. But, they can be assured that all furs shipped to auctions have been legally taken (or successfully lied about) or the taker would be in jail, that is how laws work. The sourcing should not even be a problem, coyotes are all North American and non-ranched, aren't they? Sustainability is again a no-brainer, no State or Province is going to allow harvest of endangered species. Some trust in the State and Provincial authority would be all that is needed for their certs.

Thanks Todd and Otis for your first hand information.

Uh huh ...

Now we're all getting on the same page with concerns

absolutely not,feel All trappers should stick together to set a precedent that what we are doing is already humane and then some.

I call BS on the whole traceability thing for CG, and the auction houses, because the avenue for traceability already exist within the current system. Each shipper supplies an address, and license number from their respected state upon shipping fur to the auction houses. the individual is thus identified, as is location, so who much more do you need for traceability. Traceability is something the auction houses have the ability to address themselves, and to some degree an issue that most shippers already was in some regards in place. Is not most fur already graded into sections ?? Why is this not something that the auction houses could have dealt with upon their own accord, thus offering an more opportunity to their potential buyers ?? All the good promotional efforts they said that have been going on, and they couldn't even come up with that has a service to their buyers ??


The issue is certifying trappers, that is the root of the problem, because it offers nothing in regards to traceability, but a whole avenue to accountability. If they certify you, then they will be able to hold you accountable, and how do the hold you accountable, they regulate you. Fewer trappers more intensely regulated is what you will have in the long term, and that plays right into the hands that look to do away with us totally.

I will oppose any type of certification upon my fellow trappers, and those that promote it. Like Mr. Jones point out, trappers have made many great changes over the last several decades, and I don't think these people are ready to toss all those efforts to the side, just at an opportunity at a temporary market. If we agree to certification, then trappers will be bound in chains foraged of themselves, and I pray that never happens.


RTT

Perhaps Google Peta and Canada Goose.Maybe it is for the defense of Canada Goose.I find it odd that Peta filed a lawsuit and owns stock in CG.

Makes sense. Peta is trying to stop Canada Goose in the courts and also trying to change them from the inside.

I have not seen an accountability tag on Canadian maple syrup.

No accountability tag, but I bet it is regulated in some manner if its certified.


RTT

PETA exists to make money. They do it by keeping the Disney movie watching crowd up in arms. They probably claim stock in cg is to change things from the inside but without a majority of shares the only thing they will do is profit. Something peta is well aware of. Aware not only that they will never have a majority share but that profit is likely.

Our Kansas coyotes don't fit the bill for CG anyway so I guess it is more of a smaller portion of the western states.Maybe the Chinese will still have a few dollars left this year for one more good run,lol.

RTT, I am not personally advocating for it all out. All I am saying is maybe we should keep an open mind.

One thing that I think you and I have agreed on in the past is without a decent, viable market with returns that are profitable trapping as we know it is in a big hurt.

Danny I agree on the money issue with PETA, but having shares in CG is a completely different matter, but the two different directions could intersect for sure. If enough shares are owned by PETA members, then they could effect positions upon the board. Even if it only was a couple of seats on the BOD, then these people could influence others upon the board to take a direction like we are seeing now. To some with no idea about trapping some of these request they are asking for seem like no big deal, and reasonable in their eyes. PETA will have an avenue to change culture from within, and they have the bank roll to do it. They have gotten creative, while we set back and just react to their next move, poor way to go about things.


RTT

[/quote]

RTT, I am not personally advocating for it all out. All I am saying is maybe we should keep an open mind.

One thing that I think you and I have agreed on in the past is without a decent, viable market with returns that are profitable trapping as we know it is in a big hurt.
[/quote]


Steven, I agree viable markets are in a big hurt, but I don't believe this is the manner in how to fix things. Why every time we have a problem within trapping, or the fur industry is it the trappers that is somehow at fault/ the problem ?? Why after all trappers have to go through to get licensed with their states, and the regulations afield, and regulations upon shipping fur, why do they need more. Enough will never be enough Steven, and it has to stop, especially from those within our own community.


RTT

ringtailtrapper I have to ask what do you base your opinion on? You seem to feel this is the death of fur trapping. What makes you feel that way?

Not to mention why CG is going to follow trappers around this year to see how things are done.I smell something fishy myself.

Couldn't we trappers band together to form some kind of committee buy shares in CG as well? As far as I know they have $4000 worth. And claim they now have a say so. That way we could educate CG on what goes on and a trapper would be at meetings advocating for us. Probably never gonna happen but buying shares in other companies that use fur makes sense to me. Not Just CG.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

Um, have you any idea how much cash it would take to own a voting share in C.G.?
I must assume not. $4000.00 wouldn't buy you crap. Sorry.

Allow me to put this nonsense into perspective:
Canada Goose stock is, as of Friday, trading for $59.84 per share. There are about 30 million shares "outstanding". Daily trading volume averages about 2.1 million shares. The market cap is 2.1 BILLION!
Get it? Your coyotes don't mean didly!
You can cave if you want, but will have zero effect on the company, either way.

Well PETA apparently owns 4,000 bucks worth and has CG by the buttons lol.

Lol! Like 66 shares! I have a lot more than that in Microsoft. I wonder if Bill Gates will have dinner with me? I have concerns,

I wouldn't let them bring a camera or smart phone. They can ride with me but it will cost them $200 a day plus expenses for the education. Business is business.

I am going to sell my GOOS stock and re invest in Pot Stock.That investment is going to skyrocket,

!...your starting to see the light!

I will invest but wont kill the brain smoking the stuff.If people are dumb enough to kill their brain cells,I might as well profit from it,lol.

You are going to invest in ROUX?

Pretty powerful statement right here by a man who was/is involved heavily in the fur industry.

Is traceability the answer. Nah, at least not the only one.

Might it help? I don't know. Doesnt hurt to explore it cause the ranchers are doing it.

The ranchers are selling their certified pelts at a loss. Do more research. Certification is a failed marketing scheme.

Actually there are 106.77 million shares outstanding. Unless you can afford to buy at least 5% of the shares outstanding, you won't even have a glimmer of hope of forcing a board seat.

If I was considering buying GOOS I would ask myself how many more high quality coyotes the company can buy ?? Where will they come from ? How will traceability or certification add to the available supply?

Generally, when supply increases, price decreases. I can see GOOS wanting their costs to decrease but I still don't see where they will get addition, high quality skins.

One site, investopedia, lists 87% of shares are owned by institutional investors.

White, I can't verify it but I would say GOOS probably can't get anymore of the pelts of the quality and price range then they are.

If they want to make more coats with ruffs they are most likely going to have to utilize another article.

Dirt, not all ranchers are loosing money at these levels

and wouldn't next in line be ranch goods and for comformoty wouldn't they go to all ranched fox??

That seems completely reasonable to me too

Only took them 50+ years to figure out where their Coyotes came from. They need some educating.

somethin smells,hopefully i stepped in bear poo.

I've been told they want to use wild fur

What smells fishy is that you are here blathering away on the topic in complete ignorance, having not even bothered to read CG's policy statement on the subject. What legitimate purpose does that serve? Read up or shut up.

That is probably a good idea Boco. I would not do it in this country but your government is now on board with pot.

Additionally, GOOS, just a couple weeks ago, notified the SEC that the insiders ( officers) will be SELLING 10 million shares. Might be some sort of signal there.

Here is an Economics 101 lesson for the Harvard MBAs at CG. If you want an increased supply, you have to increase the amount you will pay.

What if a person said CG doesn't buy ANY coyotes, and they are all purchased from ruff manufacturers.

what percentage of trappers in North America actually get coyotes to CG.??

CO,ID,WY,MT,SD,ND are the States of high interest.

There are only a few types of fur that is any use for hood ruffs in frigid conditions,coyote,wolf and wolverine.There is no species ranched that will work for their cold weather parkas for hood ruffs.Fox is likely the worst choice for a hood ruff.Fox tails are used for ruffs but are a poor choice compared to coyote.The guard hairs are just not stiff enough to shed the frost.
If they cant get enough coyotes,they have no chance to get enough wolves let alone wolverine.

Boco, I'd wager the vast majority of the people buying these coats don't have a clue if the ruff sheds frost or not.

You may be right,but CG knows.Their original products were made for the arctic,and that is one of the marketing points they use to sell their current goods to the yuppies.They could use sheared beaver for a hood liner.

I wish they would. With the hatter market it the way it is, if we had a strong shearing market it would be a heck of a time to be a beaver trapper.

Guess I am ignorant too. Peta sues CG,buys stock. Now they want to follow several trappers around,so tell us,what is the purpose and in what fairy tale world with all stars aligned will this do anybody any good? Make everybody conform to Canadian standards? I would tell them to take a hike.

Front and Center, supporting trappers, and the trapping of wild fur.



Directly from their website:



As a function-first company, authenticity is everything to Canada Goose. Since 1957 we have been focused on making the best products of their kind by using the highest quality raw materials and craftsmanship to ensure we deliver a product that performs when and where it’s needed most.

We understand and respect that some people think animal products should never be used in any consumer products, however we do not share that view. We are committed to providing full transparency about how we make our products, including the ethical sourcing and responsible use of animal products.

A COMMITMENT TO TRACEABILITY
Ethically sourced down, fur, wool and shearling are an important part of our story. We believe all animals are entitled to humane treatment in life and death, and are deeply committed to the responsible use and ethical sourcing of all animal materials in our products. We do not condone any willful mistreatment and neglect of animals or acts that maliciously cause undue pain, injury or suffering.

We recently implemented comprehensive traceability programs for both Fur and Down to ensure they are sourced from animals that have not been subjected to any unfair practices, willfull mistreatment or undue harm, and materials are fully traceable throughout the supply chain.

The Canada Goose Down Transparency Standard™ is our commitment to tracking the source of all of our down, from farm to factory. Through a third-party audit program conducted by International Down & Feather Industries, we can certify that our down only comes as a by-product from the poultry industry and has not come from live-plucked or force-fed birds. It also ensures that all down we source adheres to the Five Freedoms policy set out by the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) and European Convention for the Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes. As of January 2017, all down insulation used to manufacture new Canada Goose products is fully traceable.

The Canada Goose Fur Transparency Standard™ is our commitment to support the ethical, responsible and sustainable sourcing and use of real fur. The first traceability program to cover the wild habitat, it ensures that all fur sourced by Canada Goose is in accordance with the Agreement of International Humane Trapping Standards (AIHTS) in Canada and the Best Managed Practices (BMP) in the United States, and is fully traceable throughout the supply chain. The standard certifies that we never purchase fur from fur farms, never use fur from endangered animals, and only purchase fur from licensed North American trappers strictly regulated by state, provincial and federal standards. As of April 2017, all fur used in new Canada Goose products is fully traceable, and includes country of origin labelling.

DOWN
Why we choose down.
We use down because it’s recognized as the world’s best natural insulator, providing approximately three times the warmth per ounce as synthetic insulators. Each ounce of down has approximately two million fluffy filaments that interlock and overlap to create insulating pockets of air, which is what keeps you warm.

We purchase all of our down from Feather Industries Canada Ltd., a Canadian down-procurement company and it is hypoallergenic, laboratory-tested and exceeds all Canadian and International Cleanliness Standards. Each of our down blends contains some Hutterite down, which is among the most premium and warmest Canadian down available, enabling us to manufacture lighter jackets without sacrificing warmth.

Canada Goose was a founding member of the Down Association of Canada and has been an active participant for the 30 years since. For more information on down and its benefits, visit www.downmark.ca.

FUR
Why we choose fur.
No matter where they’re worn, many of our products are designed and built to protect against the elements in the coldest places on Earth – places where exposed skin can freeze in an instant. In these environments, we believe that fur is the best choice. Having fur trim around a jacket hood disrupts airflow and creates turbulent air which helps protect the face from frostbite.

We only use the best quality fur from the Northwest regions of Canada and the United States, where coyote populations are confirmed to be highly abundant. In fact, in many regions of North America, coyotes are considered a pest as they attack livestock, endangered prey species, pets and sometimes even people. We know that wearing fur is a personal choice and we respect that. In turn, we hope that people will respect our responsible use and ethical sourcing of fur.

WOOL & SHEARLING
Canada Goose is committed to tracking the source of all our wool and shearling from origin to the factory. Through our traceability programs, we can source the wool and shearling back to origin, assuring it came from farms that value animal welfare and do not practice mulesing.

That is the part that concerns me.

They don't even know where their Canadian coyotes come from. I'll educate them. South central to South western Canada. Of course by aboriginal trappers using traditional methods in order to feed their families.

I don't know whether irony is allowed on the forum

Yeah they're corporate business men. They don't have the faintest f#####g clue how nature works. They're trying to change that. And they're looking for help from the very people who are benefitting from their efforts. But they're up against weapons grade ignorance.

This is the exact type of self defeating nonsense that made Atlas Shrug.

My thoughts exactly,Marty.

The sky is falling. Run. The sky is falling.

not exactly marty. atlas shrugged because capitalism was usurped by socialism. producers were being told how to produce and forced to support those who do not produce.

in this case we have marketing people who want to tell us how to produce the goods they want to market.

not enough money for me to care what they want. on top of that the states they want coyotes to be trapped in have both county state and federal coyote control being done with tax dollars. so if you head out to catch those heavy pales better do a little homework or you will be in a low density area. of which there are a lot

Im sure they know the coyotes aren't form the NWT . They gave a broad generalization where they get there coyotes. Northwest Canada and The United States is close enough how far into detail do you want em to go?
Theyre using fur man, and trying to keep it that way. Most companies drop fur asap under that kind of pressure. CG seems to be trying to find ways to keep presenting it to the public...good for them
But I don't condone them trying to change trapping methods and laws just so that they're happy about buying certain coyotes from certain areas. But They haven't said they want to do that either. It seems we'll have to wait and see how serious they are about ride alongs. But again, I do not support them having a say in how trappers do their thing,no matter what they pay for the fur. We have enough laws already.

I don't know how they expect to get enough heavy pale coyote. There simply aren't enough around. All my coyote are always western heavies, pretty coyote with gorgeous fur if I do say so myself:) but I wouldn't call the majority of them pale, most grade into browner categories. If they're not happy with the big lots having what they want they should talk to the graders and managers. We simply ship what we catch. But you'd think they know that they'll have to buy some that aren't exactly pale.

Fair question Mark. Trapping as an outdoor activity is in a downward spiral, as is many of our outdoor endeavors. I have seen so many people just give up on certain outdoor activities, because they became regulated to death. All their efforts to be legal became such an effort that it took all the enjoyment out of the activity, or the cost didn't warrant the reward. In some states you have to be a lawyer to go afield. Trapping is already the most regulate outdoor activity on the books, and my fear with certification is that it would only limit the number of trappers to fewer than we already have. How many people do you know that would be willing to jump into a mess like this right from the start ?? Not many, and most would just look at another activity. Mark, we already have trapper education in most of the states, and the regulations we have in most states in many cases have been brought about by trappers, and wildlife professional working together, not all the time, but a good many regulations trappers imposed upon themselves. Trappers knew they had to do these things, or we would have lost trapping a long time ago. This is why I fear certification Mark, because I think it will inhibit the development of future trappers.


RTT

If I was in business for 60 years I would think maybe I would have a clue about my product. Good idea not to hang around a bunch of b.s. artist and repeat the b.s. they tell you.

i'm igggernant.

BS for sure Dirt, the traceability is already in place, that is if they are buying fur from legal licensed trappers. The question I have for CG is what do you want, traceability ? Accountability ? or certification ? maybe all three ?



Traceability- all fur shipped has a name, and address attached to a shipping tag. You can find them if needed


Certification- Most states have trapper education as a requirement to licensing, thus if I have a valid license, then I have already been educated to the types of traps I may use legally, and the regulations pertaining to harvesting fur. In other words you have been informed, and are in the know.


Accountability- The trapping license, and the ability to produce, and sell fur. Those that go down the road of illegal, or unethical activities find their license in jeopardy at some point.



Problem solved for CG, and your welcome.


RTT

They don't have to be pale. A little darker coyote makes for better trim. Density is king.

RTT, Trapping is in a downward spiral due to fur prices. In the last 3-4 years the number of people trapping and snaring in ND has better than doubled. It may be 3-4 times as many even. Why? Because of coyote prices. The number of fur buyers has increased by 3-4 times too. Why because of coyote prices. Let coon get up to a $40+ average and rats $8 and you will have trappers. Not everyone can or will put in the time it takes to trap with no chance of a return.
Every time I ship fur or sell local I give out all the information CG wants. In ND a fur buyer has to keep records of who they bought what from. Their grade sheets ask for name, address and license number. If CG wants that information you think we should say "NO" when we give it out already? Some how it make no sense to give that to one buyer and not another. Often there is statement saying the fur you are selling is yours and it was taken according to the state regs.

OK guys,I have been contacted to be one of these guys they come to see.We are fighting an uphill battle here so we better unite and stick together one way or another.

So you want me to rub your belly when you roll over ?? No thank you. By unite do you mean agree with you, and discard my concerns ?? No thank you.

Good luck.


RTT.

RTT, your concerns are my concerns. Does that mean we alienate one of the biggest supporters of wild fur or do we work together with them to see if there is a way to come to a mutually beneficial program.

I don't really have much in the form of a solution but what I do know is that MJM is right. We need a viable market for our passion to truly continue and flourish.

LOL, your right Steven we need to work together, but I still don't believe certification is what is needed. Speaking of alienating people, what will certification due to the smaller producers, the trapper that only traps on his vacation in the fall for a couple of weeks ?? how about the school boy trapper with only a few traps, just were do these trappers fall into the scope of trapping under certification ?? How many will just give up trapping rather than submit to the certification process to sell just a few hobby pelts. Should they not be rewarded for their efforts as any other trapper ?? Have we come to a point in our history that we now turn on one another, with hope of being the last one standing, just to sell our goods ?? I hope not.


RTT

Depends I suppose. If he was from IL there is a really good chance he wouldn't have to worry about what CG does.

LOL, if you think this is only about coyotes, then you need to go back and read a few of the post within this thread. This will carry on into other species from the sound of others pushing its agenda, so at some point it could effect everyone in every state. Like a lot of things trapping, what may effect your neighbor today could effect you tomorrow.


RTT.

once it starts it wont stop with coyotes they will need something else and all species they use..... its not that we don't want to comply we already are! through our state laws and regulations.

Boy you better get a group together and get busy. The next fur season is gonna be upon us before you know it.

Looks like exactly 6 months before the powers within start buying again. Do you believe in miracles?

Have you talked with CG or any of there representitives? Or are you just basing everything off hear-say?

Wonder what lines they will use this year.

I can not see how signing a statement like this, is going to keep anyone from trapping or selling fur.

i see it as less than 10 percent of the trapping community trying to push whats good for them on the other 90 percent or more.call me names and tell me why i'm wrong.i Do appreciate opinions different than mine.

Exactly who contacted you and what are they asking you to do?

All i'll say is good luck and know/follow this by heart.

http://www.nationaltrappers.com/bmpcoyotewestern.pdf

More may depend on you than you realize..or maybe not, but be prepared and eyes wide open.

Traceability would help alleviate the fears by US manufacturers.

I hate to say it guys, it's coming and sooner than most would like to think and from my conversations the push isn't only coming from GOOS.

So it's either fight it tooth and nail and loose or get at the table and help draft it.

No ones worried about traceability, that can be done easy.

c and T hasnt helped with ranch mink prices....even with C and T in place it will not increase prices.....to much ranch fur in the market place is the problem.....as far as CG advertizing goes,i think we are already meeting there demands with BMP with the laws that are in place......ride alongs will be a big mistake IMO

Steve it was raccoon dog going back to the Burlington coat factory fiasco. There are already U.S. labelling laws routinely ignored by Chinese manuacturers and American retailers. In the end American retailers want cheap Chinese manufactured products to sell and the ole switch a roo is are part of doing business with a country that has raccoon dog farms.

[/quote]
I can not see how signing a statement like this, is going to keep anyone from trapping or selling fur.

[/quote]



Mark, that is nothing more than a consignment contract. That document has nothing to do with certification in the manner that Boco was referring to. I will say that would deal with traceability, and would be no different than with the shipping tags via the auction houses. I agree that document would be no issue, because it has nothing to due with certification. The statement at the bottom is a no issue, the auction is just shifting liability way from itself back toward the shipper. The auction house does not want to be know as a business that partakes with Illegal activities.

RTt

This about control of not only product, but production as well, and that is were certification comes into play. I see a future of a limited number of only certified trappers that are able to market fur, that the end user may keep tabs upon, and if need be bring into compliance as they see fit, and if the trapper bulks at anytime, then they are out in the cold with no market. This would increase market share for those certified, but those not certified could be shut out altogether at some point. I guess the term "Free trapper" means nothing anymore.


Steven, if we fight this what makes you think we would lose ?? The traceability issue is just pure BS, because they have that already in place, and like I have pointed out most fur is graded into sections already, and all fur is shipped with names, addresses, License number, so do they want traceability ?? or certification with accountability ?? They want C&A, and traceability is the smoke screen. With certification they will limit our numbers, and with accountability they will crucify us with legal action.

Why does CG want a signed statement ?? Could it be that they are in some way protecting themselves ?? Does the average trapper have the ability to take on corporate lawyers if something goes south with those statements, and could trappers be found liable ?? Is that what trapping needs today, trappers taking on corporations in court on accountability issues ? Just where we need trapping issues, in the courts, brilliant. Great media headlines, and toss even more money into the coffers of groups like HSUS, and world wildlife fund. Free fundraiser for those groups !!


Maybe it should be trappers asking for accountability from end users like CG. There have been a good share of end users over the years get caught miss representing their products, and yet when they do it's trapping that ends up with the black eye. Why ???


I would advise any trapper looking to produce, and market fur in the future to oppose signing anything in regards to traceability, certification, or accountability.


RTT

RTT, when the details are finally settled I may agree whole hearted with your last statement, until then I'm going to keep an open mind.

You might as well sell your traps now if you believe all that crap.C+T is on track to be industry wide by 2020.
Long overdue too.

If you want an example of how C+T helps an industry just look at farming. It killed the little guys.

yes but in trapping the little guys are doing it for fun and using outside money too support a "hobby".

Traceability is already in place and has been for many years, self-certification is in place when we sign our permits saying that we will follow all laws and regulations.

The problems with raccoon-dog and false advertising were nothing to do with trappers or hunters, it was retailers and marketing people blatantly lying, I guess all the opposition to fur in the USA can be laid on the marketing people maybe. And now those marketing types want to set trappers up as either whipping boys or scapegoats for any future bad press that comes from false advertising at the retail level.

It was mentioned above and passed over, does CG actually even buy coyotes? It was said that they actually buy ruffs already made up by some invisible to the consumer ruff supplier, who may or may not be the dresser/tanner; but breaks any tie between the trapper and the garment maker.
I have already self-certified with my permit and provided traceability at the buyers level and beyond the buyer, whether it be a country buyer or through an auction, after the initial sale I have no more to do with the fur nor any control over it.
Certification of the brokers and tanners and dressers and furriers and marketing liars is beyond my control, but if there is a problem with the public perception, it arises in those areas. Always it has been the retailers that have created the public perception, the retailers need to look at their own house first.

Open mind, Ok. Voluntary whipping boy for corporate advertising, I don't think so. But others have volunteered and more will in time.
This entire discussion is moot, the folks that are affected first and most have already made the contract. The precedent is in place. Boco is correct in that it is too late to prevent all this.

Just curious where our state and national guys stand on this. I trap 60 to 75 days a year by my self so its not like need someone along. If I decide I think its good for the trapping image I will do it , If not I wont.

It is the unpredictable stuff that happens that concerns me. I just hope the bozos they pick live in a perfect world.

Data Mining

here is what the National guy said; https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads....lit#Post6274064

But, how can you or I be sure what will happen to the video and pictures they take on the line after they edit them and or sell them or whatever? If these people want to learn about trapping, they can take a Trapper's Ed Course a lot quicker and cheaper. They could take instruction from any of several well known trappers. Only need to ride along is to document you. What you say, what you do, what you don't say or do. How many minutes the animal is in the trap before removal/dispatch? This might be of particular interest in some states with multi-day check times on foothold devices, maybe?

I remember when many Candians had to sell all their traps after their trapping leaders promised them higher prices. The only higher prices they saw was higher prices they paid for Canadian produced traps.

BS.Why would we have to sell any traps,we can use more traps legally here than many states???

I ask for somebody to bring this to light.If there isn't any hidden agenda or hocus pocus then that shouldn't be a problem. So, why do they feel the need to have somebody ride along? It has nothing to do with traceability.You ride along to see,so what do they want to see?

And tell me why they need certified again? Consumers are buying them faster than they hit the stores...i dont think care where it comes from. As soon as fashion changes coyote prices will drop wheather they are are certified or not. CG has all they need now for honest advertizing

I wouldn't have any problem with somebody doing a ride along with me on my trapline. "Wanna see my line? You buy the gas, grub, smokes, a new set of CG bib pants, etc." Id be happy to show them a working trapline. As far as I can tell they just want to see where fur comes from similar to any investor who wants to see firsthand where their money goes. Im not paranoid of losing ground to anti hunters though so that's the big difference I suppose.

My observation was what occurred in the past.

In the beginning not many traps were what is the word I'm searching for? Hmm!
.......... Now I remember, "Certified".

Just be careful what ya wish for.

Never saw where more cooks in the kitchen made for better pie.

Wonder how many coyotes produced each year are shot not trapped?

Boco is right, they got to keep the traps, but they sold their souls, and that of their fellow trappers. I think we need a tariff upon Boco !!



RTT

We sell fur not souls.Thats for the religious zealots.
Where did all the preachers go that used to spout on here?

Don't get them started Boco.