Status of the International Fur Market

….so here we are four years later, and it does seem to be getting anything better. Fur it a peak since the 80's, and in the snap of a finger it was gone. It seems to be these were the issues that caused the decline. Correct me if I'm wrong.

China: cracked down on fur importers not paying taxes, put a number in jail, should have amounted to a hiccup in the supply chain. Any barriers concerning China now?

Russia: the destination of most wild fur. Invaded the Crimea leading to trade restrictions. I presume this meant less Russian oil be sold on the global market. Are those same restrictions still impacting fur? At the same time, OPEC flooded the global market with oil in order to make fracking unprofitable. The resulting gas glut equally hurt Russian economy regardless of trade restrictions, as they rely heavily on oil exports. But now the supply has leveled off and oil prices back up. So fur should be on the rise?

Greece: economic problems in Greece crushed a lot of furriers close to 10 years ago. But there doesn't seem to have been a hiccup in Greece in 3 years now.

Economically, I don't see why fur prices remain in the toilet. What am I missing? Regardless of Russia and the price of oil, it seemed Asian markets for end users was on the rise 5 years ago, what happened with that? What happened to the Asian demand for otter? What is NAFA doing in Asia to market wild fur???

The main reason why most fur is in the toilet is because of the over production of ranch mink. Way too many ranch mink being produced the past 5 or so years. China is saturated in mink. Luckily there is a downward trend in production that is happening right now.

Also sanctions have hurt Russia a lot taking them out of the market. And if Russia is hurting it hurts Greece too.

Weird. Last year I made the most I’ve ever made in trapping fur. Lucky for me I have a wide range of animals to trap and I can focus on the higher value items if I want. If the market stayed like this for 100 years, I’d be ok with that!

They said the same thing in 1850,then it came back gangbusters in the 1880's.
There were always ups and downs in the fur market,always will be.This current downswing is nothing new.

But I’ll be dead in 30 years.....

Dang me too!!

won't be long and we will know who the ones were that really meant it when they said"i'd trap for nothing"

Yeppers.
Been saying this and most thought i was nuts. (might be right) The auction houses were trying to tell the...
Well, it's a warm winter in China.

We are suffering from a lack of markets, without a truly vibrant Russian market and the ban on using raccoon in the US market we are dead in the water. When Russia is active you have all the other players buying to fill that demand, Greece, Turkey and China all buy wild fur to supply that market. The other internal problem with the Russia market is RFID tags.
https://www.russia-briefing.com/news/russia-tag-fur-imports-bid-fight-customs-fraud.html/

US companies will not buy raccoon because of internal bans on using raccoon because of the video skinning them alive in China.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-sold-West.html

Factor in the lack of Russia and you have the fur market in freefall. Until the supply equals the demand you have today's present market. Three years ago nobody would have believed the present state of todays fur market. At least 2 more years of this before the present production and stored skins are used up.

Really? A video made by AR rights activist is believed as SOP by fur producers? Thats why the coon market tanked? You sure it's not more warm weather?

Just one of the present problems, along with CITES issues on species that are listed. That video caused a lot of problems.
All these things cause tipping points and have an effect on the overall market, at least the price of oil is heading in the right direction.
Cold weather and fashion can change things in a hurry.

To give you an idea of the world fur production. Numbers are good but report is a little to optimistic.
https://www.fureurope.eu/news/world-fur-trade-is-booming-despite-china-slowdown/

If I was a car dealer and could buy new cars for a 1000 bucks for resale instead of 25,000 I would be booming to.

Ya if you were a car dealer and bought cars for 100,000 and now they are worth less than a quarter of their value you would be broke. I was talking with a Chinese buyer at the NAFA sale last week and he has a lot of skins from 2013 at high prices he can't sell. Coats in China are selling below the cost to make them just trying to use up inventory.

gibb; Do truly feel that the glut of fur in storage will be used up anytime soon? Or are we, as producer just going to continue to keep producing faster than usage?

There will be a huge pelt-out this fall which will cause a blimp in the production but by 2020 the market will be way down and that will be the start of the recover. The present mink crop is bleeding the farmers dry in comparison to the prices. Females have dropped $5.00 on average since February. Cost between 36 to 42 dollars to raise a mink that is averaging $20.
Still a lot of raccoon being held by dealers waiting for the market to recover. If Russia comes back it will improve things in a hurry.
Just heard today that the US has slapped a big tariff on fur from China.
We need the Danes to reduce their production and what I hear is the banks are pulling back in Denmark so that is a good thing.
2017 mink production was pegged at around 67 million.
This will all happen but short term the future is bleak.

By pelt out you mean liquidating what farm mink they have to lower production for the next yr?

I can see winter beaver coming up in price nicely once the market overall bounces back.
Beaver is the most versatile fur as it can be used natural as a utility fur,or plucked and sheared as a high fashon item.
There are special unique skills involved in dressing beaver that add to the cost,thus depressing its use in a down market.

As in going out of business and the ones remaining will cut production and focus hard on quality mink.

Wild fur needs Russia, even with a reduction in mink production, the sale of raccoon is very depended on Russia.

Supply vs Demand could be the reason. Tax and tarrifs are not helpful either. Not sure if public is ready for more fur in clothing. I know my daughter will not wear fur, yet has no problem with leather. Leather is a byproduct but fur isn't. Her reasoning.

Thank you for your time to explain. I’m mainly a coon trapper with mix of few other species. I haven’t trapped coon for the last 3 seasons. Guess I’ll wait for a couple more.

In that line of thinking fur is a byproduct of wildlife management including endangered species protection, habitat protection, public safety, disease control, nuisance control and food.

I had headbands and earmuffs made out of mink for my daughters and daughters in law as well as my grandchildren. If your going to talk the talk you have to walk the walk. If every trapper in the US used up a dozen pelts there would be a half a million less to market.

Agreed...honestly how many of us (trappers)actually wear fur?

I do if it's not 10,000 degrees I love my skins in winter though!
Colt

Do you think the day will come where there is no fur market ? When our children and grandchildren will have no reason to trap because fur is worthless either tanned for wall hangers/novelty or not used in any garments ? No one would pay a dime for any fur. Seems we are one generation away from that.

kyron4, if we're that detached we will probably have bigger problems than the fur market.

My ice fishing Hats and beaver mitts.....and when I want to make a scene at the bank and Grocery store ...lol

Whole family wears all kinds of fur along with a lot of other people here.
If you spend any time outdoors in the cold weather,all you have to do is wear fur once and you wont want anything else.
People will always wear fur here.
See lots of fur on people in the cities too,even when the weather is not too cold.More of a fashon thing there as opposed to utility.
I have a hard time keeping up on orders for fur articles.Getting a lot of orders lately for fur ruffs on hoods(cut off the fake fur and put wolf fur on).

Have to wear wolf mitts in the cold part of winter up here. Lots of fur boots (mukluks), hats, hood ruffs,etc. lots of fur getting used in the most practical way up here.

Working on some wolf mitts and hats right now Ryan.

Not for the international market however.

Good to hear i also have beaver mittens and hat....boco nice job! Nice looking mittens

I have beaver mitts, beaver hat, otter facemask, and a beautiful king-size beaver bedspread. Had Marten baby booties made for my granddaughter, and mad_mike's daughter. Those are just some of the articles.

HELLO!

Hobby production is booming.

Has been for at least 25 years,hard to keep up.
Customers know custom made is higher quality than mass production.

yea bcoz earmuffs work so well year round in miami

trappers shipping animals instead of selectively releasing and only keeping saleable pelts is part of it as well

can't argue with this one though.

That video even if real is about dogs not raccoons, if a member of the fur industry doesn't know a dog from a raccoon, it is no wonder that the industry is hurting.

No, they are not "dogs" in the sense that Americans use the term. Yes they are a member of the canine family same as a fox or a coyote. They are about as much of a "dog" as a fox or coyote.

A very good point. However, in my experience buying fur from trappers, there are quite a few Trappers that are unaware what a low grade pelt looks like even when stretched and dried.

Determining if a pelt is going to be saleable while the animal is alive in the trap could be a very difficult task. I'm thinking water logged Raccoon or a muddy coyote.

A very good point. I’ve trapped for about 40 years. And would consider my grading mediocre at best. I live within 20 minutes of both NAFA (Stoughton) & FHA (Cambridge). I’ve seen some very low quality fur, and fur handling alike. I mean goods that should truly be thrown in a dumpster!
Yet some trappers think that junk is worth as much as the best skins.

I have a beaver hat and a coyote hat. Temp has to get below zero to wear either of them, though.

There is a good point here.Some will not know if the fur is good or not.Some think just because they caught it that it is worth alot. When to the fur buyer that I mean a good fair one will tell them different. Also it is up to the buyer of what they willing to buy and pay for.When a land owner want problem animals taken out you take what there is no matter what the animal is and the shape it is in. I seen that for what I need to do for the land owner.I know I will not get much for the low grade.But that dose not bother me.I get land that alot dose not want to trap because of low fur price is for how it is now and I get what ever I want from there and also what the land owner wants trap out.

That's what I'm thinking

When I trap coons with dog proofs I always release the sows and the kits in the fall.Their fur is crappy period.I have often caught the same coons in our late winter/spring season and the females and young of the fall that previous year are beautiful.I have had those coons usually go 90% select-seriously.Catch the big males in the fall and the females and young later in the winter.Now I know lots of guys cannot do that when you use drowning sets etc..but with dog proofs it works out well for sure.

Seems that 25-30 years is the cycle, 1987 put a hurt on most who were in the business then, 30 years later we've seen another slow buildup, peak, and now the downturn. I sure hope it's not another 25-30 years, I don't think I'll have much interest/ability when I'm 90 years old. Here in the U.S. ski areas shearing beaver has been the star of the retail fur sales. 40% of my sales are heavy, sheared beaver. I think the level of production (read that lack thereof) has kept large manufacturers from picking up the item, that and cheap ranch fur. Granted there are more factors involved here but

My "Russian" hat made from a large otter is the same. But boy when it's cold out you just can't beat it. I have 10 tanned otters that I think I'm going to have made into a coat. It would be perfect for those below zero days, ice fishing, etc..

I send more beaver to the tannery than any fur for my own use and for sale to clients.I always sell out before the next bunch comes in from the tanner.
Beaver fur is a versatile and long lasting fur for all kinds of garments.
Much of the very best parchment Beaver from Northern Quebec never sees an auction.They go directly to France.

Al, why do you suppose the level of production is so low on shearable beaver?

I bet I get a couple calls a year from guys wanting shearable beaver. When I ask them how much and they give me some figures, my typical reply is you don't want them all that bad do ya

Sold a small *1 beaver for $2.50 and a medium *1 beaver for $4.50 both extra dark, kind takes all the fun out of under-ice beaver trapping.

Too cheap for the square inches of fur.
The problem is the dressing of these pelts in North America is too expensive for the manufacturers.
The deal is better for them on XXX\XXl.Cost of dressing is much higher per sq inch for smaller beaver than large ones.

Has anyone ever published or figured out the price of different species of fur by the square inch?
I would also be interested in the difference in price per sq inch between a small shearing beav,and a XXXL shearing beaver of the same grade.

Perhaps with Trumps easing of environmental and other regulatory roadblocks we may see the dressing industry expand in North America which was decimated by the implementation of these regs in the past.

International market?

This pic sums it up.

Last night I heard the Russian economy is so bad they have raised the age to draw pensions.

The harvest only top quality fur is a good idea for trappers. But since buyers don’t have to and won’t buy junk what possible difference does it make to the market for good fur. None, When the market is hot ,junk and southern fur have some value. When it’s bad it has none. It ain’t a glut of section three fur that’s killed our market

Back to what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Higher winter beaver price or better quality and more production? Maybe this item just dies out. The market is the market.

I agree that the market is the market.

But don't tell me that shearable beaver are the star of your skiing market and that the problem is lack of production when the prices that manufacturers are offering is an insult.

Ranch mink stole your shareable beaver market years ago. Fellas should read those magazines that the auctions put out. There is no hope for beaver when Herman is telling you beaver can't compete with cheap ranch mink and this was in 2013.

The market is in the marketing. There is a world of difference between ranch fur and wild caught...such as Canada Goose embraces. Wild fur should not be shy about embracing this distinction, and that can only happen through marketing.

If we had furriers in this country highlighting wild fur it would make a difference on fur sales in this country. When I bought my wife a sheared beaver vest a few years ago, I had to hunt for it had the fur store and they were pushing ranch.

Also, the upper middle class black woman is a market with huge potential in this country. Advertise to them, make it available, and they will buy all kinds of wild fur.

I sold a bearskin hat to a Black woman once.
When she put it on it was like a time machine back to the 60's.

Good luck with that, trappers don't want any part of that nonsense.


https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6275789/1

Oh, they want it.....just don't know how to get there from here! Trappers do what they do best, untill we get some furriers that want and know how to work and push wild fur, we're gonna be in this situation. They prefer to work with ranch crap, because it is easier. That is human nature!

Be fair! Some trappers support Certification, some oppose and some don't care. As far as the ride alongs,who knows, CG may be just looking to confirm what the anti's been saying about trapping so they can justify dropping coyote ruffs.

The one company on the face of the Earth promoting wild n.a. fur, and trappers, and the trappers overwhelming response to them?:



"POUND SAND"

ain't no western coyotes in PA last i checked.5 states does not a market make.open your eyes to the other 45 states.

As far as certification goes I think there is as much down side possible as there is upside. We already harvest fur under the rules of state and federal laws, what more do they want? Will it really increase price and volume they use, or will they see an actual harvest and be completely turn off by it even if it is completely legal and humane as possible?

Will certification stop you from buying snowmobiled or dog caught coyotes?

I was trying to keep an open mind and learn more of this, certification, the part about peta buying stock in cg made that a little difficult.
What does peta say when asked by their donors about this?

The scary part we should be concerned with is that PETA has the cash flow, liquidity and assets to invest in markets that create much more earnings and thus more funds to use to promote their cause. They are rapidly learning that the best way to win their battles is to join in our activities such as WCC attendance and being elected a county rep and by investing in consumptive use investments that create earnings and opportunity.

Bryce

The reductio ad absurdum of this is that you are letting PETA dictate your actions, and that is exactly the type of influence they were seeking when they bought the stock in the first place.

IMO both Al and CG want the same thing. They want trappers to supply all their wants and desires at unrealistic prices.

Do you have any clue how many coyotes CG buys? Take them out of the picture and the coyote market goes below production costs for the majority. When a market is below production costs it's as good as dead.

Nah, Al and the rest of the shearable beaver users are at unrealistic prices. CG's prices for the articles they want aren't bad. Not at levels that one could feed a family on but a profitable level non the less.

I am guessing that since they are only buying from one region of the country, CG is buying a very small fraction of the coyotes that are pelted.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad they are buying what they are buying. More money into the fur and trapping industries is great.

I think that the future of the fur market does not depend on CG.

You might be right,you might not be right.Maby you should go and spit in the face of a Canada Goose representative,and tell them we don't need them.Thats a great business model.

What is your definition of a "small fraction" and what areas produce the most coyotes? Don't forget they are targeting at least 3 Canadian provinces.

The future of the fur market depends on every manufacturer we can get to use our products. I don't know about you Shane but I don't like trapping fur below production costs.

I am not sure how you took away that I was advocating for spitting in CG's face from my post. I said I was glad they were buying coyotes.

They want and need those coyotes. I am no CEO but it seems like that should give the producers of those coyotes some degree of leverage.

No sir I do not like trapping in the red. It severely limits the amount of time I can spend trapping.

Like I said, I am just guessing on the percentage of coyotes that are pelted compared to how many CG are buying.

I dont't have the answers as to how to have a consistently thriving fur market. I don't pretend to. I read these threads to get more perspective. I agree with you Steven, that we need all the manufacturers we can find to use wild fur. I just think that all that we already do to produce fur in a humane and responsible fashion may not be totally appreciated by some of the manufacturers and consumers in general. If it were then maybe their would be more demand in North America for our products.

There has to be a way to use the current trend toward sustainable and environmentally sound production to market our fur. The modern trapper produces the epitome of what that movement wants.

Please explain why certification is even needed, when everything they are requesting from certification is already in place, like traceability, and accountability. It's not spitting in anybody's face when you just show them the information they requested is already accessible. Maybe the problem is with those that we as trappers have entrusted to market our goods ?? Both auction houses have the ability to trace pelts, and if that information was the best approach to marketing those goods, and with the current consignment agreement that all fur shippers agree to when shipping fur in place, that gives the consignment company almost complete control to market those goods at their digression , then why have not the auction houses already implemented traceability ?? The auction houses better be able to provide traceability, and if not then why are we shipping them fur to market ??


RTT

I don’t believe that is the case at all, they buy a select bunch of coyotes. They didn’t buy the top lots at either auction this year, I have been told the Chinese buy in the neighborhood of 300k of all shapes and sizes. CG is the most vocal but far from the only markwt

i'm takin this all in but it's makin my head hurt.

[/quote]

I don’t believe that is the case at all, they buy a select bunch of coyotes. They didn’t buy the top lots at either auction this year, I have been told the Chinese buy in the neighborhood of 300k of all shapes and sizes. CG is the most vocal but far from the only markwt [/quote]



True that !!

I had no idea that I "SET" the market. Does that come with braggin rights, and more important, can I sell them for anything?

There is a certain segment within the trapping industry, and fur trade that wants a more limited market, and certification is that avenue for those select few wishing to achieve that goal. This segment has been around for sometime, and many of the people that fought against this in the past are no longer of this world. They knew that this could divide trappers, and with that division trapping could very well become an activity that was only limited to a few certain individuals. They wanted trapping to be an activity for everyone that wished to take on the endeavor, and they believed in free markets, and creating more opportunities for more people to become involved in trapping. education was fine, but certification was an element that could be used so many different ways, and many of those ways could be very detrimental to trapping as a whole. The risk was not worth the reward, and thus they fought this tooth and nail.



RTT

I've been told that 2020 is the year NAFA will start to implement traceability.

I’ll believe it when I see it, just like when they were going to 1099 trappers and fur buyers a few years ago.

It is real simple Al, I can't produce below production cost and a reasonable rate of return, no matter what the market wants. If the market wants fur below production cost that is what hobby trappers are for.

No doubt, the proof is in the pudding.

Looks like a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice argument to me. Aint gonna be no winners, aint gonna change any minds.

I just bet ya a bunch of coyotes get whacked regardless.

I get the potential perils of certification but just looking at this from a manufacturer's end, how will a limited amount of trappers be able to provide enough fur to them without prices going through the roof? Why would they want to drive the price of a fur item they want to use up by limiting the supply? What am I missing?

[/quote]
You might be right,you might not be right.Maby you should go and spit in the face of a Canada Goose representative,and tell them we don't need them.Thats a great business model. [/quote].....how many PA coyotes do CG buy? no ones spitting in there face ,all everyones saying is that we are all ready in compliance with what they are asking for, with BMP already in place! don't need ride alongs from there hand picked trappers to represent all trappers. especially for a short lived fashion trim trade item....if you think by complying it will insure high coyote prices forever...haha they wont! fashion changes fast.

Steven, if that is true, then we are talking about a company that already has the name, address, and license information on file of every shipper they have dealt with. The very idea that it would take them two more years to implement traceability is laughable, and speaks volumes in regards as to how this company conducts business.


RTT

It was suggested the other day that they don't buy coyotes at all but only ready made ruffs.
So, I ask, do you have any idea of how many coyotes CG buys? or if they just buy ruffs, how many coyotes the ruff manufacturer buys? If not a number, an approximate percentage of production?
However many it is a good thing and it would be even better if they used some more, but for sake of discussion, some notion of just how big an impact they might have would be good to know.
How many coat ruffs can be made from a single pelt and what becomes of the rest?

i think we are gettin a mushroom treatment.kept in the dark and fed a bunch a poo

That is the part the the "don't question them" crowd is avoiding.

Every one of these posts several of us say this, they have all they need IF traceability is all they're after. I'd like to see one of them address this. Monster Toms said that is all they're after, so i'll believe him until i see different.

If they step over the line and start on our methods, as BOCO has, then they will get resistance from me and hopefully others. Dollars ain't worth losing traps/methods.

AMEN

What did I say about your methods?

hippy they won't start with you and western trappers have already accepted this as the best route for them to go. You saw the post the other day from a trapper who said he had been chosen for a ride with trapper. This is happening now, if I have read the posts correctly, it's a done deal.

I'll assume you read it, so i deleted it. A word that shouldn't be used on here. IMO.

There are some trappers in our area that have been pushing the auctions for a long time to develop the traceability tags and get them in the hands of trappers.These trappers have felt that some of their pelts had been mixed up before they were barcoded with the old system,and have been wanting to seal/barcode/tag their own fur.

I hear the auctions will have a tamper proof tag/seal that will go thru the entire line from trapper,auction ,tanning process,and manufacture by 2020.This is one of the necessary steps in the traceability process that they have been working on.

If Al could only find a Dresser who would dress hides for the same price he paid in 1985, he could pay me 1985 prices for beaver. Try telling a tanner you will only pay him 1985 tanning/shearing and dyeing prices and see how many pelts they will do for you. The cost of my beaver even if trippled the current rate of $15 would be cheap.

No,i didn't see it hippie.
PM if you wish.

Here's another issue i brought up on the other thread about this, that got blown-off.

Canada Goose went public, and that dilutes the morals/standards the company was built on.

Here's an example of the founder, the guy who built the company being pushed out of his own company........

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/papa-johns-fou...topstories.html

coincidence that after 50 years, once they go public they are now wanting these changes?????

I'll get back to ya after bit Boco, i have some questions about the mother land i want to talk to ya about also. Busy.

what impact do you all feel this would have on the recruitment of new trappers??

How long do you think it will be before China knocks off your tags ?? How long before someone is selling, or trading tags on the sly ?? How well did all that special label, or tag thing help the ranchers in regards to knock off's, guess we already know the answer with ranch mink prices in the toilet. A tag is your answer to traceability, that is laughable, and an insult to trappers to boot. I guess trappers will have to have a decoder ring, and a secret handshake, and the tags in order to sell fur. You guys are just creating more difficultly for trappers to market their goods, and it's a ridiculous idea. Out of all the things plaquing trapping this is your groups great idea, if so please quit thinking, because your killing us.


RTT

Dirt, I don't think you understand. There are no guarantee's in life for producers of any commodity, oil, cotton, gold, ask anyone affiliated with agriculture that works hard and is only sometimes rewarded for their efforts. Why should someone provide you with a livable wage for producing something you want to work to produce when the market for that product is really a much lower dollar amount? That was life in the former Soviet Union, they pretty much proved that that concept didn't survive. I would guess that in 2013 you were not saying this is to much money for my fur, I need to give some of those poor furriers some cash back, they're paying to much! That really was the case in to many circumstances, it didn't work well in the end.

Just another hurdle of the already many in place. Low fur prices combined with added requirements, many will say the reward is not worth the effort, and seek out other activities more open, and accessible. Who would want to jump in the middle of a mess like this ?? Hard not to blame them for taking up some other type of outdoor activity. The anti trapping groups love to see this type of BS between trappers, and would love to see a more limited pool of trappers marketing fur. The anti trapping groups could then pin point their efforts, and bring the full weight of their financial war chest to bear upon trappers, with focus and precision. Trapping should be for everyone, and marketing fur is a part of trapping, thus I feel everyone should be able to market fur equally in a free market system. No special tags for that special person with the brother in-law that was able to get tags, that lived in that special area, or state, see where this is going, or what it could become ?? it would do a great injustice to the recruitment, and the overall health of trapping.


RTT

Al there is only one guarantee, I won't trap beaver if it is impossible to make money. What other business model expects the first guy in the process to always lose money?

Tamperproof,like cites.
If they are cut off then the pelts will no longer be C+T,thus not saleable in the outlets that demand such.
RTT you have a very childish understanding of C+T.

Boco I put Cites tags on pelts. They are not going to follow the pelts or parts of the pelts to the finished product and show on the fur side.

What happens when you tamper with them in transit?That was the gist of the comment.

The only reason I’m trapping today, and the only possibility for my grandchildren to have that same opportunity long after I’m gone, is due to the fact that trapping regulations here in the United States are determined at the state and local levels. It’s a democratic process that gives me and others like me a genuine voice in the outcome.

As soon as you hand over that control to a non-elected, corporate, foreign body whose only interests are maintaining their bottom line and/or appeasing hostile interests groups, you’ve given up your voice and opportunity for self-determination.

Remember that all this certification and traceability nonsense began in the European Union as a means to appease European animal rights groups. And on top of that, the Grey Goose “traceability program” came about because the Humane Society of the United States took legal action against Grey Goose and host of other retailers by exploiting a provision in the 1951 Fur Products Labeling Act.

Certification and traceability has been an artifact of the animal rights movement from day one, and it's being fast-tracked by Grey Goose and NAFA as a way of bypassing state and local trapping regulations.

I agree good post

Again,C+T has absolutely nothing to do with appeasing Antis whatsoever.
On the contrary it is a powerful weapon against the antis propaganda.

Which business model do we follow now. I have some fur Id like to sell. Not sure what it is worth. Its worth more than that, you just insulted me, why I ought to roll around in the gravel with you. OK, I will give you 4 bucks for it. You got a deal you thief.

"The only reason I’m trapping today, and the only possibility for my grandchildren to have that same opportunity long after I’m gone, is due to the fact that trapping regulations here in the United States are determined at the state and local levels. It’s a democratic process that gives me and others like me a genuine voice in the outcome."

Trapping regulations might be determined at the state and local levers IF the feds decide to let that happen.
The federal government can and has greatly influenced trapping regulations here in Maine. The blasted Lynx deal has very effectively ended any realistic long line trapping for fisher and marten. Sad but true. Due to the federal governments involvement in the nonsense that has gone on, the face of Maine trapping has changed in a way I never expected to see in this life time. Ver sad.

Traceability does not exist today in the US fur market, no matter what laws and BMP's we follow. If my local buyer throws my hides in with the rest of his collection and then ships that to NAFA how do they know ANYTHING about the individual pelts? Saying we have traceability is silly. I sold to a guy in PA not too long ago. Are my hides in accordance with their laws? NO, so can he 'certify'? No. The Buyer didn't ask anything about it. Once my hide goes in his pile it cant be tracked as there is no ID on it. The ONLY traceability that exists is if you ship direct to NAFA or FHA or another entity bar coding each item, as the producer.

I'm undecided on the idea of getting my NAFA hide barcode tags and putting them on myself. Obviously there could someday be counterfeits, but they wouldn't scan when they arrived for grading at NAFA so that may be a moot point. The upside would be I could track each exact pelt and the mystery DG3 could be contested, hopefully. Who bears the cost of these tags? When I was trapping NH almost every hide got tagged and sealed. What a nightmare for the Game Wardens who had to seal them, and buyers who then had piles of hides with sharp tags cutting their hands and other hides.

Would I have to have different barcode tags for Groenwold if I sold through them? FHA? Local buyers all have to issue tags too?

I don't know HOW this gets implements past self certification- and we could do that with the form MonsterToms posted from the Colorado sale.

Yep! As with certification and traceability, the Antis are using the federal court system and threats of legal action to chip away our trapping rights until there's nothing left; again another example of bypassing democratic, state-legislative processes. This has been the standard tactic of the Left for decades. They can't push through their agendas with votes, so they use the courts.

Thank God for states' rights. Otherwise, we'd all be collecting stamps this coming fall instead of laying steel.

Childish, now that is real rich coming from you. LOL I think I have a very good understanding of what you, and your gang are trying to push down the throats of trappers. Thank God for those that seen through this BS many years ago when this was first presented many years ago. They seen the threat and knew that sometimes threats come from within, like this certification BS. How about doing something for trappers besides making their trapping experience any more difficult than it already is, try that why don't you then come back and tell us how good you are, wind bag.


RTT

You understand squat,RTT,you don't have the neuron capacity to function beyond about grade 4.LOL.

That's not very nice, BOCO

Go To Your room and Take your certification & Traceability with You !!

Stop being your Uppity Canadian Self .

w

On the contrary it was extremely nice.

So you admit to being contrarian.

grade 4, that's about 2 grades better than most Canadians from what I have been told. I will tell you what else I understand Boco, and that is I think you and your gang that promotes this certification BS are nothing more than self promoting hypocrite's, that want nothing more than a market for just a select few, and the devil with everyone else. You want trapping, and trappers to be limited, and that in truth is worse than the anti trapping establishment, because it comes from within our own community, shame on you.



RTT

You are way out in left field buster,you don't know me at all,and what I do and have volunteered
for the good of trappers and trapping in my lifetime so far.I work for an organization that is grassroots-run by the membership and carry forward the very wishes of those members.A proud and strong organization forged in 1947 and by some of the greatest men ever known to trapping.These men like Ralph Bice(order of Canada) and Alcide Giroux were visionaries who spearheded humane trapping which led to the great improvement in tools and methods we enjoy today. The freedoms as trappers we have here right now is due to these great men. Myself and others strive to carry on their legacy to make Ontario the greatest place to trap anywhere.We are constantly making gains for our trappers across the board with governments and will continue to do so.

it is fossils like you RTT that is causing the death of trapping in your country.Shame on you.

Right back at you sweetheart, and you don't know anything about how I have been involved in trapping matters, but rest assured Boco I have been involved. I don't agree with your assessment of certification, and I think it could be harmful to trappers, and trapping as a whole on many different levels. I have posted my concerns, and all you have done is insult me saying I'm childish, and I have nothing more than a 4th grade education, your a class act Boco. Your concern is the market, my concern is Trapping & Trapper's.



RTT

Wrong on all counts-you started the insulting of,not only me but all Canadians(typical arrogance)I will always defend myself.
You are misinformed again.You are not aware our constitution prohibits any involvement in sales/marketing,in fact our fights are for more liberal furbearer management, promotion and implementation of trapper education, humane harvest of the fur resource,access for trappers to harvest fur, and rolling back onerous laws that hamper trappers.
The C+T initiative for wild fur is being rolled out in 2020 by the manufacturing and retail sector of the industry in conjunction with the auction houses,and apparently other brokers south of the border.
A bit late,but better late than never.

We have many associations with a good number of past, and present trappers that have fought the good fight here in the lower 48 as well Boco. We have confronted many of the same issues that your organization has in the past/present, and we have made great strides in some areas, and others are still works in progress. Boco, please excuse me if I don't take everything your groups says as the gospel, because we have some very educated, and experienced people of our own that have some very real concerns over what you have been promoting. Are you insinuating that our people are inadequate in dealing with matters like this, and that your group knows what best for all ??

RTT

You can do whatever you want,I am proud to represent my constituents here,and only explained it because you insinuated that we threw trappers under the bus here which is lies.We always do whats best for trappers here and our record proves it.
Why would you say that I said you are inadequate?I never said that-more Bulls--- lies from you.

LOL, but yet here you are promoting C&T, LOL. Your such a tool Boco.

You make it sound like our efforts mean nothing, and that only your people know best, that is the way it comes off. You basically said this is the way it is, and take it or leave it with C&T. With that said what are people to think. Your approach to the matter was not subtle in the least bit, just take it, and live with it.


RTT

Here is one link that discusses the 2018 Russian economy outlook.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/04/russias-economy-is-a-mix-of-good-bad-and-ugly-amid-sanctions.html

As you can see definite improvement from 2015-2016 but still risky and uncertain. The rise in oil prices may be why there is some upward trend in the better coons.
Note however that Russia continues to have a negative population growth which means there are fewer younger workers, an aging population with fewer youth for the future; all of which indicate a slower growth economy and less consumable goods spending.

Bryce

RTT,it is a done deal,it is coming in 2020.Wild fur is the last in the industry to be included in C+T.You obviously don't keep up with the NAFA/industry newsletters.
Although I and others are happy to see this finally coming to the wild fur sector,If you think it is me and other trappers doing this,that is laughable.
I don't know what your efforts are that you are undertaking or are speaking of.So how could I say they mean nothing?I never said any such thing.

I wish the great trapping leaders could improve fur prices then there might be more money to accomplish all your social goals that I don't care too much about.

What social goals would that be Dirt?

Educating trappers.
Harvesting wildlife by made up standards of humaness.
Etc.

Hey I believe this conversation and educational seminar on the American fur market is starting to work. They just PT the rest of my southern coat coons for an 18 avg.

Have a bless day boys, lol.

Its good to know that you are opposed to improvement of methods and tools in the industry Dirt.

Not sure what you rub on yer hides before you send them Riverotter, but you've had the best averages of any that i saw all year. (rats, fox and now coon)

I WANT SOME OF WHATEVER YOUR USING!

These improvements are they working? Just wondering.

Kind of like the old ones they were using back in the 70's and early 80's myself. Getting a three dollar avg. on coons and 35 on otters I don't think I like these new improvement their coming up with.

hippie we ran almost 4000 southern hides through the last two sales if I can try and make light of a bad thing gone worse I believe most other trappers can to. lol. It is what it is and ain't a darn thing we can do about it but ride it out again. It will pass one day.

I hea ya,

My butt is getting sore riding this one already. lol

......you believe everything NAFA puts in the newsletters?..wow! lol

The info has been disseminated widely by wfsc reps also,as well as other officials in the company.It is common knowledge within the fur industry.

..........lol

they cant even grade fur! isn't that why CG is starting to buy at the lower 48 fur sales?

Nafa intersorts fur.I don't see what grading/sorting fur has to do with thier C+T rollout in 2020?

....CG does there leaving lol

what are your options for marketing fur in your area other then NAFA?

I sell raw fur to both auctions FHA and NAFA,as well as manufacture and sell fur articles to outlets or private customers.
I have sold to local buyers in the past but they couldn't compete with the auctions and a lot went out of business.I sold fur to the North West Company off and on,they became basically an agent for NAFA later.
There are still some local buyers up the coast,but they are basically middlemen.

Don't care is not opposed. Do you think I should show all the other fishing guides on the river how to catch fish?

We can both agree that fur prices at the moment (especially beaver prices) are in the toilet. And the very few good ones that are produced should be worth more $$. As far as your reference to a (fur) business model of expecting the first guy in line to always lose money, you must have been hitting the beaver to hard when your Alaskan marten were bringing $200+ averages, and Alaskan otter were averaging close to that. The retail/wholesale sale of sheared beaver items in North America could withstand a $70-80 blanket basis cost for heavy, northern, clear leather beaver pelts even at this time ( in my opinion). They can't offer enough of this quality at the auctions to interest the manufacturing on a larger scale than currently exists, that coupled with the dressing issue, cost, and time to get it back. No good business people like, expect, or wish to see anybody in the pipeline lose money. It's all about demand. Meanwhile I've had my say, let's ALL play better together, I think we're close to being on the same side.

Boco, who will be the governing body of authority over this certification ?? What will happen to trappers that are found not in compliance with certification standards, but yet certified ?? Will the governing body over certification move at any point to regulate shipper beyond already established regulations within their respect states, or provinces ?? Will the governing body over certification move at any point to limit numbers of shippers, or those shippers production numbers ??


just a few questions.


RTT

Governing body?
As far as I know it is not mandatory.Ask your NAFA/WFSC director how Nafa is going to implement it.I imagine NAFA will take non certified non traceable fur to sell to companys/buyers that think they can sell it.It wont be intersorted with traceable certified fur,thats for sure.

Ok, so from what you have said would it be fair to assume that NAFA/WFSC would be the governing body. I say that because any documents that NAFA/WFSC had signed by trappers would originate from them, so would that be a safe assumption ??



RTT

They haven't said how they are going to do it as far as I know it is in the works right now.You can probably look at the CG initiative as a pilot project for fur sourced in the USA.Some will choose to sign the declaration in order to market fur to companys that want certified fur,and obviously some wont.No big deal.

So at this point these are basically individual contracts between trappers, and certain companies at this time, is that the case ??


Is there a goal to consolidate manufactures, retailers, and suppliers under one uniformed agreement that trappers would have to compile with if signed ??

The way it has been explained so far is that once fur is received from a trapper that is on record as producing certified fur,the pelts are fixed with a tamperproof seal of some sort that will go thru the entire chain from auction to retail identifying the pelt as to country of origin and certified as humanely harvested non endangered species.

Wild fur from North America is the last to be done as ranch fur that is certified and traceable has been available on the market for a few years now as has wild fur from Russia.

That is not to say that all ranch fur and all wild fur from Russia is certified.

What determines certification( conditions) ??

That is what I am wondering. Is getting certified just going to be signing piece of paper stating that I followed all State and/or Federal laws?

Here's one of the traceability documents that had been floating around. I believe GC was requiring this from buyers for their coyotes. The absurdity of some of the questions, and irrelevance of most, just to sell your fur to some retailer is a bit alarming. So apparently this is the glorious future promised to us by our corporate benefactors to the north. Not me for any price!

^^^ that, to me, looks like a scary, intrusive and irrelevant document, that I want no part of.

They would probably not be please with my other comments column...

I do all that.I could check every one yes,no problem.

Boco, is the document that mainer provided in his previous post in your opinion accurate, or is their another document that your more familiar with lurking around ??

I have to say Boco after seeing some of the questions upon that list I'm wondering how some of the questions are relevant to marketing fur.



RTT

I don't think many of those questions are relevant.1 and 4 would be the only relevant questions in my opinion.
I don't know anything about any documents,expect to see something around 2020 according to info from NAFA.

Boco, I think that is the very first thing that we have both agreed upon about this whole process. The document that Monster Toms showed us was nothing more than an ordinary consignment sheet, with the normal affidavit statement at the end saying the items your attempting to sell were in fact legally yours. Nothing to get excited about, just normal procedures when selling goods lots of times, people want to know their not buying something obtained illegally, or stolen. The document that manier presented takes us in very different direction, and many of the questions do in fact concern me, and should all trappers. We don't know what NAFA is going to come out with yet, but if it is anything like the document mainer posted, then I will stand behind my current opinion of C&T. Just to many questions that have no merit in what they say they are really trying to accomplish. Another concern is giving that information to a marketing body(NAFA), and they share it with a third party(manufactures, retail), and how they might be able to use that information at their digression. Big concern !!


RTT

It's like quilted toilet paper, a feel good piece of paper.

Boco- You have "open" land up there in the Ontario paradise that any trapper can work, such as in the provincial forests, or is your operation one of those "granted" (by bid?) trapping lines that are given out by the provincial government? If so, does the provincial gov limit the number of actual trapping lines within its forests?? I'm just trying to figure out how truly "open" your type of Canadian trapping is...?

This document was around 2 seasons ago with GFW for coyotes.

So, after reading the enclosed document, what if I answer only half "yes" (e.g. most of my carcasses aren't use for bait or feeding other wild critters, I'm not involved in trapping ed, my state doesn't have a "master" list of "approved" traps), then I can't be certified...? Is it an "all or nothing" sort of thing? The auction houses get to decide my "grade"? Would they reject my furs or just throw them in the "non-certified" pile and sell them for less? I guess then that NAFA will concentrate on making its commission money on the "best" stuff (best quality and C&T) and be satisfied with making "crumbs" off of the rest...?

The only way to ensure that such intrusive documents never find their way here in the United States is to refuse to participate in any C+T program now and in the future. NAFA is attempting to put this into *practice* as voluntary in the beginning but will eventually seek to mandate C+T down the road by institutionalizing the practice as an industry standard.

There's nothing inevitable about C+T unless we cave in and participate, and if that happens it's over. We have one chance of stopping the push toward C+T before it becomes an industry-wide mandate. Presently we're not legally bound to participate in NAFA's marketing initiatives to sell our furs; We have plenty of options other than NAFA.

In the United States trappers are regulated at the state level: on the equipment we're allowed to use, the species we're allowed to trap, when we're allowed to trap, who is allowed to trap, what credentials are required to trap, where and with whom we're allowed to sell our fur, and so on. Most importantly, we have a constitutional say in the legislative process that creates those laws and regulations.

The model that's being shoved down our throats is Canada's federalized system, which we've already seen is a slow rollout of ever-increasing regulations and restrictions on all of the above. Certification is the crucial piece in all of this. Traceability is meaningless if NAFA cannot guarantee to their clients that AIHTS compliance is being followed because the EU requires it for importation of wild-fur products. Don't get snookered by following the traceability crumbs. Certification is what they want to impose on us.

Just say No to NAFAcare!

Sounds like you have more regulations than I do.

I realize that my "most importantly" proviso is easy for Canadians to miss and even easier to ignore, but for U.S. citizens it's the most important part of our Constitutional right to self-determination as a sovereign people. We threw off our European manacles several hundred years ago. You may want to give it a try sometime. But then I know that would be embarrassing for Canucks since you’ve already “adopted” the European Union’s AIHTS dictates.

Doubt it. The regulations here are traps must be checked daily and no teeth on traps. 25 dollars for a trapping license with no prerequisites in order to be able to purchase that license except for a State issued ID. No limits on any furbearer by licensed trappers during the open trapping season which runs from Nov.20 thru March 31st every year. Non-residents pay more for the license but have all the same privileges as residents.

The non-resident rules are the only ones I would like see changed and I would like our non-resident licenses to become completely reciprocal so that a State that doesn't let Louisiana residents trap or places restrictions on when and limits on what they can trap has the same restrictions placed on that State's residents.

Mainer,if I had to trap under the rules imposed in your state,i would pack it in,lol.
No onerous rules imposed here at all.Trappers steer the ship here.

Boco,, did you see my question earlier about who is allowed to "public land" in your part of Ontario (the provincial and national forests)??

I'm not sure I understand your question,Nonpcf,there are around 3000 registered traplines in Ontario,lots are vacant,and there is no limit to the amount of traplines you can work except for your ability to produce the mininmum mandatory beaver quota.And with a 7 1/2 month long season it is not difficult at all to harvest your beaver under any conditions you find most expedient.Some traplines have beaver quotas of 50 or so and some have quotas of several hundred.Some trappers don't like mandatory minimum beaver quotas,but I am a proponent of them as it keeps traplines in the hands of trappers and out of the hands of rich hunters who have no intrest in trapping.
Traplines are not given out by the government.You can apply for a vacant line and there is a process to go thru if there is more than one applicant.Vacant traplines are mostly undeveloped and will take several years of hard work to cut trail establish and build line cabins and survey/exploration of the line before you can maximize the harvest.These vacant lines are also not the fur producers that longtime established managed lines are,until they see several years of judicial harvesting.

By far the best way to get on a developed line is to make a deal with an established trapper to purchase his improvements and assets on a trapline and he can sign it over to you on the spot.You can also trap a line as an 02/helper besides your own.I have trapped as many as 5 traplines in my younger days,last year I trapped 2 and next year will trap 3.

You can also trap on private land here with written permission of a landowner,these are called resident traplines and are not registered.


There are some traplines within Native land claims that may or may not be transferrable to a non native,depending if a native trapper makes a claim and can provide documentation of past family use as a commercial trapline.

A large part of Ontario in the south is private land(no registered traplines).There are lots of trappers there that basically trap under the same rules as in the US(they don't have the freedoms from regulations we have in the north}.

There are quite a few trappers who trap and live in the south that also manage registered traplines in the north central part of Ontario as well.

How much of your area is privately owned so you wouldn't have to be "registered", produce a beaver quota, or have to pay someone for an established line that would actually could be usable without 2-3 years of sweat equity...?

You're not sure you understand my question because you've never had the ability to use public land without multiple strings attached. In South Dakota, there are certain types of public land that is closed to trapping (national parks) or have needed extra permission or possibly some cash spent (state parks, federal wildlife refugees), and maybe few more hoops to jump on USDA land (national forests, national grasslands), but for me around here, NO ONE tells me if I can go trap a federal waterfowl production area or state owned game production area other than being licensed, being in season, and following our less than 3 pages of trapping regs. I'm basically a "free" trapper. Things may be different in other states but many (most?) have as much freedom as I do.

And that's the big difference between you and us. You're much more controlled by your various governments (can't trap the public forests without being registered, trapping beavers if you only wanted to go after land critters, obeying treaties with the EU on the kind of equipment you have to use). And we want to keep the amount of control on us to a minimum. As mainier stated, our rights and privileges come from the Constitution and the consent of the people (or at least its supposed to work that way) and not bestowed by some government/head of state who is "above" us. Understand now...?

I think you got it backwards.On a registered trapline we are the frontline conservationists and manage the line.Trappers requested registered traplines back in 1945 in Ontario in order to be in charge of their fur resource.
If you ask any trapper who manages a registered line,they wouldn't have it any other way.I have the freedom
to leave part of my line for a few years to buildup,without having to worry about someone coming onto my ground and taking fur,especially beneficial for beaver harvest.
I have the freedom to harvest when fur is prime without having to get in on the opener before the next guy.
Way more freedom to trapping on a registered line.Also allowed to build camps and line cabins.
I will let someone from Southern Ontario explain the resident trapping system as I am not too familiar with that.I imagine it is similar to yours with trappers trapping on top of each other.

Probably the reason Pennsylvania has more trappers than all of Canada.

I wonder how many are actually professional trappers?
More likely hobby trappers.
I'd say there are way more trappers in Southern Ontario than in the vast north.Our lines can get pretty big up here,some 12-1800 sq km.
Likely 3 or 4 traplines be bigger than pensylvania,lol

You'd be suprised.

Non pcfed,i thought you were interested in how we operate but I see you just want a p---ing match.

.....just as well pack in then. with the road you are on more rules coming! with all AIHTS crap that will be coming down the pipeline you will soon be following there rules not yours lol.

For those interested in Canada's certified (AIHTS compliant) trap list, you can get the full list here (updated July 1, 2018): https://fur.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/1...D-X-14.docx.pdf

I've included the Phase 2 listings below, which provides a good window into where certification is heading. For example, look closely at the certified list of "restraining" (foothold) traps for coyotes. The list of approved traps thus far is mostly Victor Soft Catch, foot snares, and rubber-jaw type traps.

thanks and you can bet the next phase will be even more restrictive. and all this for an trim trade item.(fashion)that will fade away soon.

We add more traps all the time as they are tested and passed,not the other way around.
Softcatch or laminated for coyote,-our choice.And more added all the time.
All the tools I use now under aihts are exactly the same I have been using 20 years before the aihts.We were way out in front in Ontario for humane trapping.Long before the Europeans and Russians adopted it,lol.
Some of our founding trappers were in fact instrumental in the development of humane trapping.

I hear in Maine you cant even use snares?That must suck big time.

I can't hang a snare here...it sucks.
Apparently there is a new reg for cable restraints but I haven't looked into it.

Yea you can use cable restraints in the south.
Federation got that approved a few years ago.
The farmers were pushing for it,not so much the trappers as you have good conditions for footholds unlike the far north where footholds are basically useless,compared to snares.

boco just curious how many coyotes you trap with those traps......not snares just the soft catch traps?. you don't have to answer, but in your neck of the woods I bet less than 10 and that's probably a high number! I bet most are shot and snared.....with that being said I will bet you really don't care what type traps ,that we will be forced to use, because traps are not very effective in your area. so who cares as long as I can get more $$$ for my certified snared pelts, right?

...that's fine but its a one way street after you adopt that traps there is no going back! if you like em use them but don't force those on everyone else.

Ya whatever,I'll be trapping next year with the same tools I trapped with 30 years ago with no restrictions.
FYI,the aihts has been in force here since 1997-21 years.
Regardless,the aihts has nothing to do with your country,and you don't have to have your fur certified-its voluntary.The auctions will still sell non certified fur after C+T is in place.

..you just told me you adopt new traps and methods each year or all the time...soft catch wasn't around 30 years ago. sooooooooooooooo which is it? and I don't often sell to the auctions other then the junk fur my outlets don't want. I have way better options then them. just hate to see NAFA propaganda spread! the auctions make it hard to compete with for the fur buyers. Fur buyers have to use there own money and pay you when fur is delivered and auction houses use your money (for commission)and don't pay until they sell it at there discretion (prices that you cant control), even if it takes years.

I never told you I adopt new traps every year,I explained that new traps are added to the aihts approved list as they are tested and passed.There are more traps added all the time.
I use all the same traps I used 30 years ago including footholds for water fur. I don't use footholds for land fur,never have,since I was a kid,before I learned better methods for where I trap.You are correct,they're no good where I trap.There are no coyotes where I trap,but lots of trappers in other parts of Canada use footholds where they work fine.
And the list posted includes many traps besides softcatch.lots of those traps on the list are used by trappers in the US because they are good traps,and there will be a lot more on that list that trappers are using right now.

And I will say again,the only ones forcing you to use what you use now is your own regulators not the auction houses or anyone else,lol.
I just seen your other post.You send Junk fur to NAFA.Post your avg,lol.

no they don't! most U.S.A trappers don't use those types of traps unless they are forced to and ok what average? on which specie? all my central cats are still setting there. less than 50 so I am glad they held them rather than fire sale them. my western coyotes I had there averaged 37 dollars, but that was more than they were worth, semi heavy and shot up and rubbed junk and had less than 75 of them there. thats about all I had there in numbers. and a few odds and ends.

This should be another nightmare for Fur Buyers. Just the amt. of book keeping alone will choke a Horse. Will each trapper that sells to me have to fill out a certification paper? If they do, then each trappers fur will have to be held separate from other tappers fur. This alone will be a night mare. I can see where trappers will just fill these papers out and in a lot of circumstances will lie about what the have did, to make that fur get certified. I do know one thing about the public and that is, they don't mind telling a lie, so as to get ro sell their fur. This thing will end up being a boondoggle for buyers. I already have a mound of paper work in the ginseng Business. I really need to have to fill out and handle more paper work. Glad my years of doing any manner of business is coming to an end. Things are getting out of hand in this day and age.
This whole certification process started back in either the late 70s or early eighties. The Europeans told all fur producing countries that in either 10 or 20 years, all traps will have to pass a test to get a BMP certification for each state or the whole U.S will have to comply with BMP rules to sell fur in Europe. this is the way things are getting done to satisfy the Europeans.

very true Don I agree!

Here's what FACE-EU (http://www.face.eu/international-agreements/aihts/) states about the AIHTS implementation schedule:


And here's Canada's 2013 Phase 2 certified trap list (below). When you compare this list with the current list for coyotes, they've added 6 traps in 5 years, three of which were either Soft Catch or rubber-jawed traps. Footholds for coyotes are "added all the time" at a rate of 1.2 traps per year.

But the claim that "traps are added all the time" is misleading no matter how you define "all the time". Many of these additions are simply adding 4-coiled versions of the exact same model. So if you lump the 4-coiled with the 2-coiled of the same model, and start with the 2010 listing, Canada has at best only certified 8 foothold traps for coyotes since 2010 (3 traps were already in the 2010 listing). So basically Canada has newly certified only 3 new trap models for coyotes in the past 8 years if you lump the 2- and 4-coil versions of the same model together.

I'll wait to respond to Boco's usual rejoinder which blames manufacturers for this.

kinda saw this with sang already haven't we Don??

Boco-do you think certification will impact new trapper recruitment in a negative way????

Boco-do you think certification will impact new trapper recruitment in a negative way???? [/quote]

I think it’s gonna effect all trappers in a negative way. New or old. Trappers get set in their ways, and generally don’t like change.

We live in a whole different society now with weird agendas. I don't see the strength in numbers for future trappers.

Trappers have no strength in numbers. Back to the beaver market. It sure would help if registered Canadian trappers were not required to harvest beaver and then dump them on the auctions when they can't sell them.

Obviously it takes time to test the traps,and a big demand for footholds here does not exist,so some traps may not get put forward by US companys if their main market is the USA.And don't forget,some traps do not pass the accepted standard of humaneness regardless.Dont forget that is a list of traps tested and certified,not mandatory.After a trap is tested and put on the list there is years before it becomes mandatory.

If you look at the lists of killing traps,which is the traps of choice for northern trappers,there are traps being added from germany and Russia,who now have their own trap testing facilities like Canada.So if there is a demand for new traps in those countries there will be more traps on the list.
Personally I don't need 30 different traps to harvest a species.
I am glad we follow the accepted industry humane standards here as we can easily get all our fur certified,without having to jump thru hoops or become liars like you guys are talking about.

Jim Gibb is on the FIC board for the TRDC,he can explain the nuts and bolts of the agreement to you,if you are really interested how it works.
I doubt if he will respond if your just looking to continue a p---sing match though.

In no way does the AIHTS hinder trappers here.Per capita trappers in Canada produce a lot more fur than in the US.We have about 1/10 the amount of trappers but if you compare species which are present in numbers on both sides of the border we produce around half the harvest.

So any argument that says the aihts has hindered trappers here doesn't hold water,on the contrary,we now have a lot better traps available thanks to the improvements thru the trap testing program-which by the way was started in 1982 by the OTA and the FIC,which was at least a decade before the agreement was signed to use better traps.

And Dirt,no one forces anyone here to market beaver.Just because an animal has no fur value(plenty of value in a beaver to a trapper besides fur,lol) doesn't mean that you don't need to manage its numbers to keep the line healthy and protect your investment(registered line).

PRC,I think it already is negative for you guys the way you see it as some kind of conspiracy to stop you from trapping.I find that strange as it can do nothing but improve the industry(and the image of the industry),especially for the people that wear our product here in North America.Its interesting to see the guys out west that have the good fur that's in demand don't see it as a big deal,that is how we look at things here.We like to work with the people that are moving forward with positive change to improve and modernize the industry.

Well when the fha magazine excuses Canadian trappers for shipping them beaver they are required to harvest at loss or for poor returns nobody is being forced to trap beaver .

Dirt,That is likely spin they use to excuse themselves for selling beaver too cheap perhaps.It is likely more about nuisance beaver being pelted by trappers who have already been paid to remove them.Beaver need managed on the landscape,both in the bush and near civilization.
No one is forced to pelt and put up no value fur.Any no value fur shipped to the auction needs to go on the burn pile,that would help curtail the double dipping.

Boco, i don't understand your arguement that you have it better than we do, at all.
You say you can use anything you always did, then turn around and say you don't use footholds for coyotes, so the rubber jaw/lam'd jaws don't affect you. Well they do effect some of your countrymen!

Another of your counrtymen stated he can't use snares. Like i said before, careful what you wish for because you might be in his shoes soon if these people decide restraints are better than snares.

When someone brings up a law or trap you can't use that we can, you blow it off by saying i don't use that trap here because the grounds frozen. What about the folks just alittle south of you? They have to live by the sames laws you do and i bet they wish they could use things that are now outlawed.

We could claim, as you do that we haven't lost anything if we pick and choose what state/provance law we want like you do.

Want the most humane, go to cages Boco. You don't know what the end game might be if you allow some company to dictate what method you use.

No disrespect, but you come off as..........I'm not worried about the guys in Canada to my south, i can't use those traps anyway so i'm ok with them being banned here. i can use my snares, watertraps and bodygrips, i don't care if they lose their footholds.

Not true,we have tons of footholds to use here.I can only speak to my own experience and the fact is I use the same tools I used 35 years ago on the trapline,albeit with upgraded improvements thanks to aihts.And you can thank the bmp's for tool improvement too.

And cages are not any more humane or less than any other trap.leave an animal in a cage in the heat on an extended check and see if you still think cages are humane.-You guys are funny.

And hippie,there are states where you cant use any footholds at all,so yes we are way better off here than you are.How many states have blanket prohibitions on snares?Only in the heavily populated south of Ontario is snaring restricted to cable restraint snares,which makes sense,as does restrictions on large conis set on land.

I don't know of any trappers here that are hindered from trapping like you guys south of the border.

And when I explain in plain English how things are done here,you start calling names-very mature.

Who here cares a lick what you do down there?If you are curious and want information about how things are done here,I try to convey it in the most direct language possible.

You seem to be the ones that are always saying how we are hindered from trapping thru regulations here when in fact it seems to be the exact opposite.

Last year I took the time to document a season on my lines.They were short lines and I had the time to do it, and I enjoyed doing it as an info session on how we trap here,and try to answer any and all questions.
I don't see why people think that showing or promoting the way we manage fur here is somehow putting down the way others in different places trap.
I don't get that.


I think I am about done with this repetative banter.

I probably sound like a broken record,lol.

Any questions on fur sewing,the other part of the industry?

Boco- What's the name of the thread about your lines last season? I must have missed it. Might be fun to look at it now in the heat of summer.

Its on trapping only not sure what page now.

Is this it? Many posts; lots of pictures!

A few pics from the northern line.- https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6041493/1

Boco thanks for you time it has been a 2 hour read in the summertime

Is the royalty $ 3.50 per beaver in Ontario?

I chocked when I saw Gibb’s posting his prices, seems I had one in that 2.50 range as well.

I saw some of those summertime nuisance pelts coming in. Grrrrrrr

Boco, the question in mainers document that refers to BMP's I think could be a major hiccup for some US trappers. The agreement concerning BMP's in the US was a far different agreement than what your country had. The BMP's were to be completed, and then disseminated amongst the different state DNR's, and dept. of wild life to implement into trapper education, and use as recommendations in conjunction with already standing regulations. We know that at this time some states made changes in regards to BMP's, and in most case BMP"s are now a large portion of trapper education programs.
The regulating process as been another matter, and that is because some wildlife agency thought that their regulation that were already in place were sufficient enough in regards to animal welfare. A state that come to mind is New Jersey, if BMP's would have been applied to trapping in that state, then Newt might of been able to own foot hold traps, and actually set them there as well. The BMP's in the US were developed, and are being taught, and in some cases applied within some regulations, but nothing not totally like in your country. We have a lot amore variable's in the lower 48 than within your country, and those variables is what makes it so difficult to have a one size fits all agreement, and that is were the individual states come into play, they are able by adapting to those variable's, and taking the best from the BMP"s, and coming up with regulations that fit the need of the resource within that state. The BMP agreement was never a document signed with the intent to regulate, because that is totally a state right issue, and well with in the constitutional rights of the individual states, so an agreement with EU asking for total compliance was a no go from the very start, and the EU knew this.

Everything these people are asking for is in place in a large part, but not completely, and with BMP's in the education pipe line, then at some point in regards to regulations the only thing that might be different will be those select variables in some states. We are right back to square one if a license trappers is shipping fur, then they have the address of the supplier, and if their license is current then there is the traceability, same with fur buyer's and their documents. I just get the feeling there is more to these question than just traceability, because I feel that if the auction houses spent so money on IT, and tossed out their old Commodore 64 computers like some have, then maybe this would not be such an issue.


Nafa, the old HBC, this company has a past history of doing whatever is needed to assure a profit, and sometimes in that history it has not all been good for trappers.


RTT

Excellent post, RTT! You've summed it up very well.

In Canada certified trappers make good money on 2 and 4 dollar beaver that they are forced to trap. Must be the exchange rate.

Geography matters. Boco's problem is that he thinks his geography should be transferable everywhere in Canada and the US. Wrong. But, at least I'll admit that different geographies have different conditions and issues.


P.S. What top hide is worth more per sq cm, a top end sable or a top end Western bobcat...?