need cheap black powder?

https://www.skylighter.com/collections/black-powder-kits

What's the difference between this " lift " BP vs say 2F?

2F powder has coarser granules of powder vs 3F. Both are black powder. 3F is commonly used in pistols because it burns faster than 2F. 3F is also used to prime the flash pan on flintlock muzzleloaders. Black powder characteristics are much less stable than the black powder substitutes. In other words, it is much more likely to go off when a spark is applied. It is also much dirtier to shoot, but performs much better in traditional muzzleloaders because it is less affected by temperature variations, etc, IMO. There is also 4F black powder that is very fine and used, strictly, for priming on flintlocks.

It's been awhile since I fooled with black but I seem to recall 2F was used in cannons or other large bore applications. The fineness of the powder was used to roughly control the "burn rate".

Lift powder and flash powder are pyrotechnics, to lift the shell and to burst the shell. kinda, I'm not a pyro.
The FA designation vs FG is if memory serves unglazed powder = FA & glazed gun powder = FG; the 2 or 3 or 4 is the size particles that passed through a certain size screen.
In general 2FG is for rifles over .45 cal and 3FG is for small bore rifles and pistols 4 FG is for primer in flint lock shooting.
The 2FA lift powder listed in the red gum kit doesn't readily translate to shooting use for me, although there are many that know and understand it better than I.

Link wont' work.

works for me, but go to skylighter.com and under "kits" drop down select "black powder"

I am not sure about this kits details

FA and FG

FG is measured in Fg , FFg , FFFg, FFFFg when measuring it passes one screen but stops on the smaller meaning you get a very consistent size grannual

FA as I understand it is measured with different screens and includes what passes so you have a much wider range of grannaul size including a lot of fines.

I started asking some what similat questions about black powder a few years ago that some of you may have, here you can see the education on it I got. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208326-Ffg-fffg-ffffg-vs-ffa-fffa-ffffa

if your wondering what I ended up doing , bulk 25 pound bag of Shutzen 3fg at 12 dollars a pound this spring the current price. at the time I had asked these questions I had just bought up enough of the old elephant old stock to get by for a while back when I was asking questions about this and I collected up enough powder canisters to house all the new powder for the bulk 25 pound purchase.

we go through about 5-6 pounds a year with the 4-H and some running a training clinic so it will last a few years

if you have a few friends buying 25 pounds at a time is the most cost effective way , but it comes in a cotton sack in a plastic bag.

most of our target work is 30 gr loads and some up to 60 gr for targets out around 100 yards. so it comes to between 5 and 10 cents a load for powder , patches are running about 1.5 cents and I cast the round balls from lead we got donated form a local excavator who removed some lead water pipe a few years back.

GREENCOUNTYPETE , I had seen that thread and hoped you'd chime in, so you never tried the 5FA in place of 2FG? (actually the screens match for 3FG, I think)

My other reading indicates that the sporting powder (FG) is wet, corned, screened and tumbled (an Army paper said graphite added in tumbling) whereas the blasting powder is just ball milled. Chemically the same but one more refined.
I found a chart showing amounts of 2FG to use in mortars in place of the FA as lifting powder but never found the corresponding chart of FA to compare with.

What I gather is the FG is more uniform in size and also burns slower for a given size because of the granule shape. One source said the FG is more powerful than the FA, but gave no info on how that was determined. Either packs tighter or because of burn rate difference? both?
Because the different granule size and shape gives different weights per volume and substitution would require careful weighing, imo.

TJM , he didn't have any 5FA at that time.

I also came to the conclusion that if I bought the FG the the 4-H manual specifies as the correct powder for Muzzle loading arms there could be no complaint. but if I experimented with 5FA which is not listed in the manual as correct then I was taking on undue liability. since 80% of the powder is used for 4-H I just stayed with FG running mostly 3FG as it burns better for light target loads.\

it just didn't pay price wise for me to experiment with FA powders.

At this point, DaveP is thinking..... WTH? LOL

From what I have researched BP isn't terribly complicated to make oneself. But a few minor details separate the best from mediocre and poor performers...

The wood used to produce the charcoal... Alder Buckthorn is supposedly the wood that Swiss brand powder uses to make their charcoal

Amount of time the ingredients are milled in the ball mill... The finer the ingredients are, the better the performance of the powder.

I've given serious consideration to trying to make a batch of my own powder... The ball mill, sifting screens, sulphur and saltpeter are all commercially available...

The alder for the charcoal is the problem. It isn't native to the U.S. but it is here. Just not in my area of the country... But it is considered an invasive species in Minnesota.

Anybody up there got it on their property? Lol

Mike

I thought willow made good bp charcoal?

Pretty sure willow and paulownia make good charcoal, but alder buckthorn is the Rolls-Royce I guess.

Plenty of willow around. I might try it just for a starter batch.

Danny do you want any if I manage to make it work? Lol

Mike

I think its illegal to mail. might drive down with a couple guns to help test it though

No, I was thinking, folks are typing but most are not addressing my question.

I KNOW about the differnt granulations, I have been shooting BP rifles, pistols, and cannons for 35 years.

Was wondering how this compared to 2F. Doubt it would be consistent enough for my needs.

Still shooting Goex and not likly to run out.
Just curious.

Pretty sure FedEx will ship it, but the Hazmat fee would probably pay for the gas to deliver it oneself.

And I know for sure that I can't sell it to anyone... So we would just have to burn it up with an afternoon of shooting. Lol

Mike

Detailed instructions on making your own BP http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

yes fed ex will ship and if you buy 25 pounds it only adds a touch over 3 dollars to a pound if you order in 25 pound lots.

Dave , the difference between lift BP called FA black powder is how the grains are screened and that it is not glazed , so less even grains with mixed fines and not glazed they both go boom but you have greater consistency with FG but on a fire work it just doesn't need to be as precise as in a rifle you can figure out where your lot shoots then the next lot may shoot different.

When I was working in Illinois I was coming home one weekend and made a detour and stopped at Graf's in Mexico, MO.

I bought several pounds of powder, including a pound of their house brand powder in 3f... I'm pretty sure it's made by Wano with a Graf's label on it. It was only $15 or so a pound.

I haven't opened it yet because I'm still chipping away at a can of Goex.

Anybody tried it? If so, did you like the performance for the price?

Mike

Wano is made by Schuetzen which is good stuff

if it is in a plastic bottle it is most likely Wano/Schuetzen

I finally got curious enough to go dig the can out and check. And you're right Pete... Wano/Scheutzen.




Mike

What did the GOEX run at Grafs?

Trev... That was last fall. Might as well have been a decade ago. Lol

Let me see if I can find out what I paid.

Mike

Oh and there is another thing about the FA blasting powders, I forgot any one can make it for their own use but I think you need a Federal explosives license to buy it and (unless it's changed you can buy up to 50# of the sporting FG powders. Been a while since I contemplated making any, but a rock tumbler or Harbor Freight ball mill would be high on my list.

Not that important, probably gone in the meantime. Just wonder about comparison with the house brand.

You can order 25 or 50 lbs. of fg at a time (can't remember which) and 50 lbs. is the max you're supposed to have on hand without all the Federal/Fire Code gobbledygook coming into play...

I asked about it at Steve's Trading Post there on Main in Joplin and the guy said they weren't allowed to have it in the store by city ordinance... So dumb.

Mike

The site currently says $18.59 a lb for Goex. That sounds about right to my failing memory.

I also bought a lb of Goex Old Eynesford 3f while I was there. Their website says it's currently $20.79 a lb. Again that's probably what I paid.

Swiss was $24 or $25 a lb I think.

I probably spent enough in time and gas to negate any savings. But I got everything I wanted in one stop and got to look around the store while the fella got my powder out of the magazine for me.

Mike

www.powderinc.com

Prices are shipped.
Go in with a few friends and it is very reasonable.

If you don't have friends who shoot BP and can't afford a whole case of it, you can try these guys...

https://www.buffaloarms.com/

Last time I checked they would let you order as little as 4 lbs. at a time. The Hazmat fee would still apply so you probably wouldn't be realizing a whole lot of savings... But most anybody could probably scrape together enough to buy 4 lbs.

As an aside... if you don't have friends who shoot BP, you need new friends. Lol

Mike

you need to check local regs , as an example I buy my powder in ILL and IF I were an ILL resident I would need a foid card and only be able to purchase 5 pounds at a time , with the rule that 5 pounds is also max possession limit.

but I live in WI and alwasy have , I can buy 50 pounds at a time and 50# is the max you are supposed to store in any one place without a powder magazine


but different states have different laws as to black powder sale and possession.

this is where I get my powder http://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/product/

Good prices. I load FFG in 12 ga shells for some old doubles. It's a hoot to shoot. You should see the people look at the trap range!