PA, Antler restrictions

Who else HATES it?

I do. Kinda hard to count points when you jump one and only have seconds to shoot. I dont get the reasoning. On the game ranches they shoot the scrubs and the older spikes that will never get any bigger. With the restrictions they are breeding does year after year.

Just because a deer is on the decline doesn't mean the genetics are gone...

Yep, don't like being told what I can or can't shoot, thus I don't hunt PA anymore. You can't eat horns.

Bulls have horns, deer have antlers

I want more restrictions. Like a button buck cost you a doe tag. 15" spread minimum.

I believe the mentality behind it all was to get "Trophy" bucks here in PA. While we do have some big racked deer, they are far from the norm. Small basket racks are the norm around here and probably always will be. It's the gene pool. We have ample good food, corn, soy, clover, alfalfa, white oaks, you name it, PA has it. What we don't have is the gene pool and no amount of antler restriction will change that.

It doesnt have to be on the decline. Some deer all they ever were and all they ever will be are scrubs or spikes

The only way to get a big rack to grow on a bucks head is to let it live to at least 4.
We have the genetics, they just get shot young.

Wrong. Read Dr Deer's research on ( is a spike always a spike) it's a bit of an eye opener to you non believes.
And there is tons more research to back that up.
Just saying

Yep!

Some people like me just want a buck. If thats what you want then thats all you should shoot but dont tell me what to shoot. When a conservative thinks candy bars are unhealthy they dont eat candybars, when a liberal thinks they are unhealthy they try to decide that NOBODY can eat them.

I'm in MO and don't like ours so can I have an opinion and not like yours either?

Sure! You can not like anything you want.

Can't comment tonight as I am out of popcorn and beat up enough.
Perhaps by page 20 I'll chime in lol.

Some that would like a buck for the freezer are forced to do without just for the "trophy" hunters

Do you have age structure?

Pa is full of laws I don't agree with, the point restrictions are one of them. It is very hard to count points on a moving deer with a scope and even harder to count with no scope muzzleloader hunting.

Pa deer hunting is very pathetic around here anymore no deer or hunters. I never saw a legal buck out archery or rifle hunting this year.

There was always big racks around I don't think the restrictions made anymore of them.

I hate antler restrictions! Just because some people want to shoot nothing but TROPHY whitetails doesn't mean everyone wants to . Some of us want to choose what we harvest and now we don't have that option. Just another one of Pennsylvania's stupid game laws. I always like to still hunt. Now when I jump a deer I have to make a decision in a millisecond if he is legal or not. It is ridiculous! It has really hurt the deer herd around here because now everyone just goes out the first Saturday and shoots a doe. Between this practice and the game commission and the state forestry destroying the habitat with logging or burning there is not near the deer herd there used to be. Not even close. Say what you will, it is not good for the sport. Kids don't even think about hunting any more because they don't have much of a chance for success.

I think there is a bar there in uniontown that i saw some big racks.

I'm not saying that his research is completely wrong (haven't read up on it). However, though age does matter, I'm a firm believer that the gene pool matters more and we don't have it. We have had antler restrictions now in PA for over 20 years (I believe). Why am I seeing the same scrawny bucks I have seen since I started hunting 35 years ago? Where are all of these "trophies"? Again, I agree, age matters but not as much as the gene pool. Look at other states that have consistent big bucks like Nebraska, Kansas, Ohio and the like. Ohio is a great example because it's close to us and has just about as much hunting pressure yet they have huge deer. My vote is the gene pool.

I am in Missouri. I Hated it when they started it - just trying to draw out of state hunters. And guess what - only took 2-3 years and now the darn CWD is being found. And the Conservation people will tell you its spread by the wandering bucks!! Ok, how bout letting us shoot them? I have despised this since the beginning. And now, only after the CWD came into play, they have dropped the antler point restriction in most counties. Our Conservation dept. was one of the best in the country for years, but now it is really spreading lies and bs. just my opinion.

There certainly are more large racked bucks around than before ARS.
That said; I don't think the PGC has should be the one to decide how big antlers should be to qualify as good enough. I wait for what I think is a nice buck in archery season. I don't hunt with a rifle very often, but when I don't get a bow buck I shoot the first legal buck. Hunting with a rifle is all about the venison for me.

ARs were put in place to make stop the whining that was being done by those who belived the herd reduction plan put in place at the same time. Hunters who wanted bigger bucks but lacked the self-control need to pass on shots at small bucks caused lots of the guys who just wanted to "get their buck" to stop hunting. Gary Alt usually gets the blame, but when the whole thing started he was against ARs as they did nothing to help with herd reduction. The PGC used him as a scape goat.

I believe research show that it is the nutrients in the soil that matter the most which is what all those mid western states have. I think antler restrictions began in 2002.

What are your restrictions. You guys know why state DNR do that don't you. It is to try to attract non-resident hunters. IF a hunter is happy with the head gear on HIS buck that he shot then that should be the end of it. But if PA can brag "we put 79 B&C in this years harvest it makes out of state hunters look for spots to hunt. Why do you think Ky has made it to the top 5 list to kill a booner. Do we really know that it is or is our F&W just putting it out there to get the hefty non-res tag sales.....

It is definitely about the money. Its why the game commission sells so many doe tags. They are only hurting themselves. The number of hunting licenses declines every year. There are very few new hunters, as in youngsters, out there.

https://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/articles/top-10-booner-states-for-deer-hunting-since-2010

Here is the list.


(Oh yea I got 2 in that book they are talking about )

Lol

Agree with all of the reasons against and Rockfarmer you are correct.

If you want a good laugh, or get really upset, read the PGC deer herd management plan. Sportsman, the very people that pay for most everything they do or control, are I believe 8th or 10th on the list of priorities for managing the deer herd. It is like a punch in the gut.

I am going to tell you about shooting does IN MY EXPERIENCE. I had 2 farms that managed/ hunted every year. Both were around 150 acres. They were in adjoining counties so terrain and vegetation almost Identical. One we shot 5-8 does off every year , the other 1 AND ONLY 1 was killed. Over a span of 15 years the farm that had only 1 doe killed produced 4- 5 130-150 class deer EVERY year. Killed one in 2015 that scored 191 on this farm. The farm the does were taken off usually had 1 over 140 and non over 150. Most years only 1 buck and sometimes 2 were killed on the doe managed farm. ALSO ON THE FARM WITH THE BETTER BUCKS we shot the scrubby jacked up ugly looking deer( kids love to kill anything). BUT we let the four point/ 6 point 1 1/2 year olds walk.

THEN the blue tongue hit last year!!!! ZERO NADA ZILCH bucks on the shooting farm. Very few does on cam or near feeders. The farm that we don't shoot does on we harvested 3 bucks on . One scored 143 other 2 upper 130's.

My opinion you have does you will have the bucks. You will have better bucks if you let the 4 and 6 point deer walk but it should be at the choice of the hunter to let them walk .........

Post a link please

People that say we have bigger bucks now are missing the point. Some us don't care about bigger bucks.

For the first time in history we had a 16 day state wide gun season. Doe harvest was allowed in counties that had never allowed it with a modern firearm. 6 deer limit (only 1 a buck) . This non-sense was a link between someone taking over our deer management that is educated in a classroom and not the woods. They came from Ga where deer are like flies on road kill in the summer. PLUS the biggest Insurance company (farm bureau) in the state lobbied (with a big check) to have more deer killed. Remember we just came off of a year that they predicted that 30% of our deer herd died from blue tongue.. IDIOTS

I didn't say that if you are directing that at me . I just gave my data . Last line in my post says it should be up to the HUNTER to let them walk or shot them........

I can never understand why hunters kill does and then complain about less deer! I hear it all the time and my answer to them is to not kill more doe. As long as they buy the tags the game commission will sell all they can.

If you are a hunter that wants a trophy buck then by all means let the smaller buck walk. However, if you just want to get a buck for the satisfaction of the hunt and to fill the freezer then it should be each individual hunter's choice. Its one thing to grow a deer herd on a ranch in Texas and its quite another to try the same tactics in the habitat we have in Pa. I'm talking public land, not private land.

I used to see 20 to 25 deer before lunch time before antler restrictions and concurrent buck and doe season. Between the much smaller deer herd and lower hunter numbers out there in the woods deer hunting has become very aggravating and disappointing. I don't see 20 deer now in 5 seasons!

I agree with most of what you posted. The PGC need some people to pull their heads out of their arses and cut down on the doe tag allocation. However, it can't be done willy nilly. We will wind up with CWD and blue tongue. A change needs to be made though.

Pa deer are Borealis. Mid west up into Canada are Dakotas. Two different sub species.
There are plenty of big buck in Pa. Get out of the tree stand and find.
TV shows have hurt hunter recruitment much more that antler restrictions.

i feel like i'm havin a flashback.

I don't hunt out of a tree stand!

LOL

Yeah, didn't we have this argument back in 2002?

Yep, its a lost cause. Until it hurts them in the pocket book the PGC will change nothing.

I have seen a lot more big bucks since antler restrictions. But, killing them is another story. All these big deer now have several hunting seasons under their belt and have learned the survival game really well. I was content shooting a small, stupid buck every year than a nice one every three or four years.

I'm a confessed " Trophy Hunter". That being said, I'm that way because I Can! Have shot truckloads of deer, probably pushing 400. Shooting a deer is quite easy where I hunt. I routinely pass up 30-60 bucks a year while archery hunting. I choose to wait for older age class deer but to restrict those that are happy just to be out there and shooting a buck sucks! Most don't have the time/ properties as " trophy hunters" .
As for the genetic thing..., Your NOT gonna shoot genetics out of free ranging deer!
Does have just as much to do with genetics as do bucks.
Do I like antler restrictions?, No!
I will shake hands and help drag anyone that shoots a small buck.

Thier tag.

me, I look for them little bumps on the forehead. button buck. this years buck. bigger than a doe and o so tender!

I also like to wait it out for a mature buck. Restriction I don't agree with shoot what works for you.

Bucks >>> Of all those deer (400) you have shot are most from the state of MN and do most make P&Y or B&C? That is a lot of tags didn't realize one man could ever get that many tags.

Thanks

I don't like antler restrictions. I'm a meat-hunter and couldn't care less about antler size. I do like the herd reduction though. The does are so much bigger and healthier than they were pre-HR. It was necessary, Pennsylvania's deer herd was mismanaged for decades. There were way too many deer and they were half-starved scrawny runts.

I think the herd numbers are stable in the two areas I hunt (5C and 3A) and I'm happy with the population and the doe tag allotments.

I'm in WMU 4C and we never had small have starved deer. The habitat was always able to handle the herd. No browse line in the forests here and never was. Just another example of the PGC mismanaging the resources. They can't adopt an idea all across the board to all the WMUs because of diversity of habitat from one area to another.

My dad tells a story of seeing game officers counting grouse flushes to gage populations. They were walking through the woods counting flushes of grouse and each time they would flush a bird that would be counted as another bird in the population not allowing for two or three flushes of the same bird as just being that one bird. So they calculated the grouse population as being much higher than it should have been.

Well now that it is about antler point restriction in general....... I only go after big bucks but I could care less what someone else wants to/does shoot. I teach and when we talk in class I tell the kids that anything is a trophy and it doesn't even matter if you even see a deer. I absolutely hate hearing kids/people say: It was only a small 8. All I saw was small bucks. I only got a doe. etc. I was not alive but there was a time around here when my grandparents were amazed to see a deer track. How about: I saw a cool skunk. A squirrel almost touched me. I got my first deer. I saw a buck chasing a doe. etc.

I live in NY State, and have went to my family's land/farm in P. A. for around 30 years now. Just got back Tuesday. I have hated that 3 pt.law since they started it. I have to say, I don't know what happened this year there, but there were a ton of legal bucks this year. My friend killed a slammer. My cousins son and husband killed two really nice bucks. And 4 or 5 other guys as well right there. Usually I have to let a buck walk by every year because it is in the woods and I cannot not tell if it is legal or not. And/or it is just a spike or 4 pt. I am curious to see what next year brings, to see if there a lot of legal bucks or not, because they are lucky to get a couple legal ones there every year. My nephew lives in Western NY and he and I go back and forth over this subject every year, last night we did because he saw the bucks taken there this season. I feel if you don't want to shoot a small buck it is your perogative, if I want to take a small buck, I should be able too. I spend around $120 a year for my license and here where I live I can still do that.

Snowy, the hatred you feel for MN guys is almost legendary. I won't answer those questions

I would like to know what age class of deer are being killed under the current antler restriction in PA, and what size antlers they carried for their age.
I am guessing that the majority of the "legal" bucks had just become big enough to be "legal". If the goal is to produce giant racks, then those deer are exactly the ones which should be allowed to walk 2 more years.
There are some counties in Virginia which produce incredible racks as soon as 3 1/2 years old. The problem is that the very prevalent dog running hunt clubs have a 5 gallon bucket rule. If the rack fits in a 5 gallon bucket, the shooter gets fined $100 by the club. Herein lies the rub. They shoot every buck whose antlers are just a bit larger than a 5 gallon bucket. Again, the very age class deer which would need 2 more years to be monsters in that county never make it.

LOL >>> I don't hate MN people I might not agree with your ways or a topic you have started, but hate is something you said. That's fine but that is a lot of tags for one man. You must hunt many states to been able to kill that many. But good for you. As far a trophy hunting like you said you must have a lot of P&Y and B&C bucks.


You sure have done well as a hunter to accomplish what you have said Good for you Buck's.

Snowy you ever think maybe he is 247 yrs old? That is one way for 1 man to kill 400 deer. If my memory serves me right on your pics you posted you look to be late 30's If you started killing deer at age 10 that's 30 years

400 divided by 30 that's a little over 13 a year . WOW you are a killing machine !!!!!!
Of course my numbers are based on me guessing your age.

If you are 247 years old then that sounds like a normal deer hunters average !!!!

jbyrd63 >>>> Ya, exactly LOL. It sounded pretty interest so I thought I would ask a few questions on all his success but NO go. LOL And being a trophy hunter only, he has to have a lot of P&Y and B&C head gear.

The antler restrictions have done nothing but cause arguments between hunters. I like to shoot deer for the purpose of eating them. They look cool on the wall, but when I pull a chunk of backstrap out of the freezer in February, I see deer meat. I don’t see a 3.5 yr old buck or a nanny doe.

That being said, I choose to hunt for the oldest buck I get on camera through archery but come rifle, I’m still looking for a decent buck, but a good sized 2.5 yr old buck like the one I shot this year will do. I don’t think the state should tell anyone what buck you should be able to shoot. Most hunters I know are hunting for a buck for meat, prob 10% are going to pass up every buck they see until the “one” presents the opportunity.

If you want to shoot trophy bucks, pass em up till it’s at least 4.5, and I think it’s safe to say most people have never killed or seen a 4.5 yr old deer. I’ve killed one deer in my life in PA that was possibly that old. The rest 1.5-3.5.

I think it’s should be the hunters/landowners choice, not the states.

All you meat hunters think on this.
A 11/2 year old yields about 45 pounds of meat
A 41/2 year old yields about 100 pounds of meat
No w for the love of God tell me you don't see why they should be shot for meat at such a tender age.
It would only take 2 years to turn this state around
To many think, if I don't shot it the next guy will
Besides, doe taste much much better at this time of year.
The buck are worn out from the breed, no fat, and smelly
This is a subject that I will never back away from
I have changed a lot of minds in the last 30 years or so.

Take a look at PA top ten typical bucks records and look at the dates they were killed. If I recall the list, almost every buck was killed way before antler restrictions. I would think that after 15 years, AR should result in a few more recent additions, but that's not the case.

I don't like the restrictions. I also only shoot big buck, but that is my choice. Although I've shot quite a few dandies, I'm perfectly fine not getting a buck and putting a couple doe in the freeze. Our area of PA is polluted with deer.

same here Farmdog.

X 2

I too am like BucksNBears, I can take a small buck many times over every year. I don't wish to go out once or twice and fill my buck tag and my season is over, it is literally that easy. If I want meat (which I always do) I fill
3-5 doe tags between my son and I. For bucks I will never fill my tag with a 1 1/2 year old again in my lifetime, I prefer he grows and get no thrill from it. If someone else wants to shoot every 1 1/2 year old I pass then go for it.
I had a 160" buck I was after last year, the last day of muzzle I passed on 2 140"ers waiting for him, I didn't fill my buck tag last year. My sons buddy got him in archery at 182" this year. There are roughly 30 B&C Ohio bucks taken a year and he got one of them at
age 22, buck of a lifetime and much bigger high than a 6 point basket.Guys that don't like a trophy hunter could care less about the guys that don't like scrub buck hunters, two way street.

The most P&Y I ever seen killed by ONE man that only hunts ONE state is a guy here in London Ky . Won't give his name . He has 34 P&Y with 4 of the top ten bow kills here in Ky . HE HUNTS ONLY KY. He is 64 years young. 3 years ago Cabelas tried to buy his collection but wanted to pay 60% cash and 40 % merchandise. He told me he would be long dead before he could spend the cabelas bucks !!
At one time you could kill you could kill 2 bucks with a bow. Now its one regardless of size or method.

Don't think anyone of the meat hunters said they didn't like trophy hunters. THEY DON"T LIKE being told they can't shoot the smaller bucks. If they are happy and pay the same as you do for their tags they want the option of killing and go to the house. Some people may have ailments that won't allow them to sit in a tree for 15, 20 ,30 days a year waiting to "see" a trophy deer. Some people take for granted their health and or physical condition. My dad has arthritis and is 80 years old . A "TROPHY" hunt to him is sitting in a blind beside his barn and killing the "basket " rack 6 point that he has watched all summer.

More to it sometimes than what you or anyone "WANTS" !!!!!

I'll just let you fellas stew on it
Don't lose any sleep over it though

I'm not calling you a liar. I would like to see pictures of the trophy wall though. I would find it awesome.

Thanks Turkey Time. I lived and hunted in Northwest Missouri for over 30 years. It really dropped the deer numbers up there. Used to be Ray, Clinton, Chariton, Calloway, Carroll counties were full of deer. Not to mention all the northern tier counties. And there were plenty of big bucks for the guys who wanted to hunt them. Now the numbers are way down. And I think its hilarious they also want to blame it on SALT / MINERAL BLOCKS! I mean really? The big ones get big because they are smart. Let natural selection do its work.

I agree with you 100% on the outdoor experiences - not just shooting a deer. And I have done the same with my kids and others kids - Archery or Rifle - any deer you get is a trophy - be proud.

As far as PA goes, sometimes I wonder if we have less of an effect on the deer population than we like to think. Few years ago, some regs, lot less deer. What changes? IDK, maybe more does having twins and triplets, more food, natural cycles and so on. Butchers says a ton of small deer this year, which just means a lot of deer overall, just like if you're getting a lot of medium and kit beaver, you have lots of beaver there. Things run in cycles in the natural world and sometimes I wonder if we know all the reasons why.

Agree 100%, my son in law wants to get into hunting more. So since my son and I are fanatics I am welcoming him. The first thing I tell him or anybody is "you have to absolutely love
being in the woods and outdoors"! If its boring or not much fun then I say find another hobbie. I can sit outside hours on end because theres no place I'd rather be. When its zero out I have
to go to the woods on occasion just to get my fix. Shooting animals and catching them are a bonus.

wish we had it here....our deer get 1-1/2 yrs old and dead. to many hunters ....wish we had 4pts to a side restrictions.. I might be able to see some monsters in 5 yrs. evey one shoots everything here .....want a doe . pick one up on the road here ....there everywhere dead here .... we have so many rules on fishing ...who needs a 50 musky or a 30 in walleye ...lets make every thing trophy .....

Gary Alt put the Apr in place because Pennsylvania had the highest deer hunting pressure in America and it was a way for.more bucks to survive past 1.5. Not being able to count antler points while the deer is bounding away is one of the ways an Apr works.

Sorry, if you want to kill any antlered buck you see in the woods, its just not the best.management practice. Imagine harvesting bobcat kittens because all Bobcats are trophies. While they are, the sporting thing to do is let the small ones go.

And its hilarious how someone equates deer hunting regulations with liberal vs conservative political ideologies.

Worst thing that ever happened here Anglinscreek. Your hoping for something that will drop your harvest rate and hunters rate big-time.

All you'll have is 21/2 year old deer getting shot, and no more of them than before. Our camp went from shooting a dozen deer a year to a 3 deer average. All those the last ten years have been basket rack 21/2 y.o. When we were shooting a dozen a year, guess what? There was always 3-4 at least, basket rack deer. The biggest 5 racks ever shot at our camp were shot before A.R. went into place, including mine.

All we got from that is less hunters shooting bucks and more posted ground...PERIOD.

How many 41/2 yo bucks have you shot the last 10 years, on your lightly pressured private ground? I'll guess it's closer 0 than 5.

Now, think how many a guy who hunts pressured ground has shot.

That's hilarious?Almost as bad as somebody comparing harvesting bobcat kittens to shooting antlered adult deer for management purposes.

You are wrong on this one . Ok you are setting in the stand a doe and 2 yearlings come thru . Give you one guess which one to shoot if you want to HURT your deer herd. The doe!!! She already knows how to raise her young and not let them be killed by predators. The young ones may survive with out MOMMA but odds go down quiet a bit. So shoot momma and good chance the coyotes / BIG bobcats will get at least one of the youngsters ....
So if you shoot bobcat kittens you won't hurt the population the next year except by one.......

What some of you guys a failing to see about this subject is little Johnny kills a 6 pt . He is done. Joe Blow gets a spike he is done.If Sammy Snotnose has tagged out on a 4 pt he is done home watching football They are not sitting out there to kill the 5 year old 140 in ten. More hunters in the woods longer =more mature deer killed. Thus you are seeing less mature deer. Yes you have to have seed to grow but if you only have so many deer to shoot but more people soon all the bucks that meet the restrictions are gone. Think on that logic for awhile..................

discuss or cuss all you want we had AR restrictions for years did it matter not as much as the mild winters did now one tag of the combo license is 4 point or better on 1 side we also have the Gov. helping out type in usda deer sharpshooters your state has them too

When Alt was given the task of reducing deer numbers in the state, it was mainlyy because the PGC was under tremendous pressure from the timber industry and (less so) from farming interests in the state. At one of the first public meetings held around the state to present the herd reduction plans to hunters, he asked the attendees, How many of you would like to see antler resistrctions put in place for PA hunters?, most of the croud applauded.
He next said that those who hoped for ARs would be disappointed because his sole assignment was to reduce deer numbers state wide, and the killing of bucks had no role in controling deer numbers to the degree needed.

The game commision, upon seeing the opposition to the great increase in the antlerless harvest, saw ARs as a tool for gaining support from hunting groups around the state.

ARs have lead to a great increase in the number of posted properties and lands that used to be open for everyone is now leased by groups who try to copy the management plans they fill their heads with by watching the trophy-above-all-else hunting shows.

5 to a side statewide is whats needed.

1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks are dumb, they run around everywhere at all hours of the day looking for does,public land,private land,dusk,dark,noon it does not matter to a forky looking for a doe. The 3.5+ year old bucks are no longer stupid, they generally hide out on private land and if they venture off it is typically after dark. Antler restrictions force public land hunters to pass young deer so they can grow bigger and wiser and hole up on private land and leases. Antler restrictions sacrifice the enjoyment of the public land hunter killing a deer so that private owners can shoot bigger ones. Selfish.

I’m a meat hunter I hunt primarily heavy pressured public land. In 2010 I killed a nice 4 year old ten point my biggest ever

The next year I killed a 2 1/2 year old 7 point


Then I had a long lapse without killing a deer for 7 years until last year I shot a big gray faced doe in archery season then luckily I shot a 6 point this year the first day. I don’t hunt for trophy’s I hunt what’s legal to eat PERIOD. I do not shoot little fuzzy faced does or button bucks like some do around here I let them walk.

Well, don’t know why my pics got sideways lol

Beautiful bucks. I have had some tag eating years, bow hunting is always a challenge. LOL For me any way. We took a mule buck this year from the ranch that doesn't even make P&Y but is 27" wide. I was very happy with is buck and he has been around for at least 4 years. I had seen him often and really wasn't going to get any better but maybe wider. Shoot what makes you happy.

Hippi I've shot 3 buck in the last 10 years. One was a 31/2 but he was an exceptional buck still my biggest. The other two were 41/2 and 61/2 year old. We use tooth wear charts to age, but there are variables to that system also.
As far as public land, I still see deer a lot of deer. The real trick is to hunt where no one else does. The steeper the better. And I average 50 yards an hour. Or less, depending on thickness of underbrush.
The three of us that hunt that lightly pressured property have takes 7 buck in the last 10 years.

Lol. You stirrin the pot?

Its easy for you guys that still have a ton of deer to agree with antler restrictions or say there is still too many deer but if you were in a management unit like me you would definitely have a change of heart. The public land here is either state game lands or state forest lands and between the game commission allowing the slaughter of too many doe and antler restrictions over the last fifteen years and the habitat that they both are destroying by either timber cutting or controlled burns you can walk around in what habitat is left and not see a deer all day long. It happens, I've done it.

Old habits and tradition are hard to break and I don't want to abandon the areas that I've hunted since I was twelve years old but I will not have a choice. Should have done this years ago but like I said, old habits and tradition are hard to break.

I've done well on buck around here years ago. My first buck was a spike and since then I have let many smaller buck walk away because I knew I would most likely get another chance at a better animal. But these days this doesn't happen. You might only see one buck and it will most likely be one that doesn't meet the antler restriction requirements. If antler restrictions were working I should be seeing smaller bucks walking all over the place! Not so!

When we could only shoot one doe in the two day season after buck season we had plenty of deer and everyone was getting deer and yes there was always some monsters shot every year. Now with the concurrent seasons allowing more doe to be harvested the deer herd has diminished greatly. Thus, less deer less bigger deer. The game commission is not regulating the herd properly. They are out of touch with what is going on. At least they are in my management unit. They have to realize that one management unit covers a large area and what is good in the southern most area of the unit may not be good for the northern most part of the unit.

They say that lands are bought with hunter fees/licenses so we can always have public lands to use. Funny thing is they are not listening to the voices out there that know what is going on. They are more interested in the insurance company's voice, the hunt club's voice, and the trophy minded voices. I don't sit in a tree stand all day waiting for deer to come by me. I work for them. Hunting pressure is way down in my area the last few years because the few deer that are left are very hard to locate and put down. Hunters these days are lazy...its a fact. So its a situation that feeds on itself. Less deer, less hunters, less success for the remaining hunters out there. I don't see it changing in the near future because the PGC is delusional about the status of the herd and as long as we as devoted hunters keep buying licenses nothing will change. Just fallow the money. Its the bottom line.

Fixed it. They hurt my neck looking at them
Nice bucks grayfox54


Nice lobster claws on that 10

How many bucks are you allowed in PA? Here in Tenn we were allowed 3 for a long time but they recently dropped it to 2

One buck a season RM

One

Yes the people running the deer program in Ky have walls lined with degrees from fancy colleges , but don't have a clue about the deer herd. They base the herd on the number harvested !!!! So to say we have more deer they increased the hunting season by 6 days in 1/2 the state !!!

I thought the original question was if we like or disliked the PA antler restrictions. Can't compare KY to PA! Maybe your deer program is run properly, ours is not.

Nice bucks grayfox54, I like your wingbone call too.

Thanks that’s the first one I ever made

If people would get out of their tree stands and quit worrying about someone else shooting "their buck" people would see way more deer and the big bucks.

I agree.

LOL think I was meaning that they don't know what they are doing here just like you say your F&W D is doing there. ??? OH well some people want to argue just to make their own head hurt. . As to comparing why not. ? Deer are deer. They eat , poop , make babies, then get eaten.........

Guys we pushed the last two days Thursday all we did was bump bucks and we were looking for doe seen one.today we bumped 9 from one thicket killed 2 next drive 4 up no shots next spot nothing then moved to the nothing side 2 bucks up 20 yd self defense shot small 7 pt. And yes our antler restitution suck

jbyrd63...I apologize. Misunderstood your post. Sorry. This is a sore subject with me as you can tell. I should have never got involved in it. I remember when we had good times here deer hunting. Now I get more frustrated than anything else. Again, didn't mean to argue so strongly.

There are LOTS of people that only get a few years a day to hunt.
They may not have the time to scout. They may not have private , managed land to hunt.
Forcing them to count points ain't right.
Besides that, I've seen yearings with small 5 x5 racks and some. 4.5 year olds with 20+,6 pt racks.
Let the people shoot what THEY want!

Most desire a huge buck, few will achieve it. I hate watching t.v. shows where it shows a dad telling akid to " hold off" for a bigger one.
What if someone makes a mitake and shoots one they thought made he grade but a " point" shy. Now what?

I've bowhunted for 41 years and have had 100, s of bucks at under 30 yards and most of the time I can't tell Howe many points they have.

A mistake cost 25 and the deer with up to 500 later when it gets review. If it does happen take your chance to get it home is what we say

I remember as a kid, our local paper ( 20 pages once a week lol) would
take and print a picture of any ones deer they brought to their office,
every year they would have 2-3 pages of pictures,30-40 deer each week
ranging from spikes on up with usually double digits of 8 points or better,
and it was only bucks ,since ar the most they've had was 6-7 pictures.
I have seen 7 bucks so far this year none have been legal.
Don't like the AR.

If you don't like horn restrictions because it's to difficult to count/identify, why not just hunt does??

No need for the counting B.S. Wolfer.
It's just a crutch for guys who couldn't control themselves before to shoot a nice deer. I shot the first customer that came up, and i've got as nice of deer as they are shooting now, just that i also shot deer the years i didn't see a nice one. Antlers, or what we call horns don't excite me at all.

I went to the attic and dug out my nicer ones, most said i should've mounted. I just don't see the fascination with them to be completely honest.

Pardon the dust on them.


Front one is over 20 wide and rear on is about 16. ALL SHOT BEFORE A.R.

Was their a biological reason for antler restrictions? Just wondering?

They wanted to reduce the herd, and this was their lolly-pop.

Interesting stat. According to the Game Comm., even with the A.R., 43% of buck killed are still 1-1/2yo. Very few make it to 4-1/2.

Let me rephrase.
Very few being killed are 4-1/2.

No problem don't blame you for being touchey !! If I wanted to fill my freezer I'd shoot any buck I saw.....

How do you reduce the herd by limiting harvest of bucks? Thanks!

Ok now your average is down to close to 10 deer a year LOL !!!!!!

They sold doe tags out the wazoo. Knowing people would revolt, the came up with this scam.

Nationwide, greatest monetary & recreational value of white-tailed deer is directly related to the size/symmetry of their antlers.
In most cases, stage of antler development is directly correlated to age of the animal.
70% of all annually harvested bucks in the US are 1.5 years old...they never get a chance to grow up.
There is a great movement to "educate" hunters on the importance of maturity along with trophy status of bucks harvested.
Since 8 out of 10 hunters can't (or won't) accurately field judge buck age "on the hoof", game departments try to increase average age of buck harvest by restricting antler size.
A spike yearling buck retains a 20% chance of becoming trophy status at 4.5 years old, while a multiple point yearling has an 80% chance of becoming a trophy at 4.5 years old...play the odds, take out all spikes.
Whitetail fawns are born about 50% male; 50% female. In a male-biased activity like deer hunting, sex ratio gets out of wack very quickly if a doe is not removed for every buck taken from a population.
It is well documented that such imbalances in population characteristics like density, sex ratio, and fawn crop recruitment have profound effect on trophy antler production of bucks within a deer herd. Thus, careful regulation of these characteristics via harvest quotas can influence overall "quality" of a deer population.
Serious trophy deer hunters tend to be the loudest (political) imput in state deer management plans. Meat hunters that resent restrictions can stick to killing does or spikes-where applicable.
A good state game dep't will try to accommodate both types of hunters by liberalizing number and sex of deer included in annual harvest quotas.
Yes, active whitetail management by state agencies sells non-resident licenses.

Wildlife Biologist

HA HA do a little research about the one to one buck doe ratio that western states are using. Recent articles and studies have shown that since the ehd and cwd out break in the past 4 years some or all of the deer herds are in bleak conditions. The 1 to 1 has bit them in the behind. It has long been known that the mature bucks are hardest hit by these conditions. Some outfitters have had to reduce their "minimium" because of low success rates among clients. Google it won't take you long to find these facts.

So we are talking " tyranny of the majority" ?

Didn't recommend 1:1 sex ratio...that is simply a target that usually nets about 1 buck to 3 does in most areas. 1:1 produces higher injury/mortality rate in bucks from more increased fighting & competition.
I prefer 1: 1.5 as 1:2 gets densities too high for intense quality management.

B-T-W, I don't need to google anything, I teach whitetail management & disease monitoring seminars all over the country and currently have about 75 k acres under direct management.
Be careful what you quote from your education at Google University ; as you might run in to someone who does it for real.

Thanks for your opinion.

OK I have a compromise. Just change the wording on the license and the law, from antlered and antlerless to buck and doe. If it has a twig and two berries its a buck tag. And a doe is a doe.
Stop a lot of button buck from getting shot. And then shoot what ever buck you wish.
I've suggested this to many people, not many like it.
What say you Pa hunters?

I think he just dropped the mic

All of us neighbors get (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) if anyone shoots a button buck. Plenty of deer in farmland, can be choosier. I would agree with that. I like shooting and eating deer, always try for nicer deer. Horns a plus, meat a plus. Should always be my choice.

There has always been a difference in a question asked by Pa. "Deer hunters" and "Big Buck" hunters in other states.

A "Big Antler" asks: " Who is the best taxidermist you know ?"

A Pa. "Deer Hunter" asks: "Who makes the best deer bologna or snack sticks ?"

Pa. has always been a "meat" hunter state and that will not change. It never has been a "Big Buck" state and it will never be one.

I'm going to open another can of worms.
Some people feel that hunting over bait is somehow unethical.
I disagree.
I feel that there is no difference in taking a deer over a pile of corn or a pellet feeder than taking a deer in a Food plot with whatever deer attracting munchies a person has planted.
I feel that when hunting over bait, a hunter can have more of a choice and more discretion on what they want to take. He can have more time to count points and either take the first legal buck he sees or he can wait it out until Mr. Big shows up. If he choose to fill a doe tag, he can either take a small yearling or old single doe.
A hunter can take his time and make a clean kill, rather than shoot at a deer running at full speed, hoping that he will hit it, and if he does hit it, it may not be a killing shot at first, but somewhere down the line the deer dies anyhow. To me that is a waste.

Bait piles equal easier dieses spread. And with Pa now blowing smoke up hunter's butts about CWD, baiting will never happened. CWD is a crock of s*** just a way to make more money off the hunters.

Interesting isn't it! LOL

We (Pa.) are doing the exact opposite.
We are not shooting the yearling spike and are shooting the yearling multi-points.

If a state really wanted to improve antler genetics and had biologists worth what they paid them. They would ban shooting trophy sized bucks and allow harvest of small bucks. It will never happen because there is to much ego and money involved in hunting.

Keith

Snowy n Jbyrd, MN has party hunting . Please don't let your inaducatcy make you loose sleep
Killed # 187 this year with archery and still have a tag to go.
I posted those number on an earlier post for no reason other than to show even though ( I've) shot a lot of deer ( and yes, (one or two) decent ones ;), I'm still very happy for those that shoot whatever theydamnwell please!
Snowy, I may be coming out coyotes hunting near you soon. Would LOVE to meet you for a stand

I do not care if you do this for a living, you are blowing a lot of smoke.

"greatest monetary & recreational value of white-tailed deer is directly related to the size/symmetry of their antlers."

Show me the study on that one, maybe in Texas but certainly not in the north and not in the west.

"70% of all annually harvested bucks in the US are 1.5 years old...they never get a chance to grow up."

Who cares? I dont, most farmers harvest nearly all of their young stock every year and maintain healthy, productive herds.

"In a male-biased activity like deer hunting, sex ratio gets out of wack very quickly if a doe is not removed for every buck taken from a population.
It is well documented that such imbalances in population characteristics like density, sex ratio, and fawn crop recruitment have profound effect on trophy antler production of bucks within a deer herd."

So again we are just going to manage the deer for head gear? Having a higher doe number means more fawns every year, more deer born yearly means higher success rate and more deer being seen. You want to manage the deer so hunters have a lower success rate and see less deer but those who hunt private land will have access to more big bucks.

"Serious trophy deer hunters tend to be the loudest (political) imput in state deer management plans."

So we manage the deer to the specifications of a loud minority?

^Can you tell me what this means "Would LOVE to meet you for a stand". What direction from Jordan will you be?

So you have a financial interest in promoting Antler Point Restrictions?

Well sure. I think your a nice fella and would like to meet you . Yanna, calling coyotes.

Deer hunting, at least for white-tails, is becoming a pay to play game; to the misfortune for some. It has been this way in Texas for a long time, but it is also becoming that way in the mid-west and also Kansas and Oklahoma. I know first hand that the Game Department in PA sent folks down here to see how we manage our deer herd and youth hunters through education. Landowners and farmers are beginning to realize the monetary potential they can receive for deer on their properties from paying "trophy hunters".

It ticks a lot of the locals off that have been hunting properties/farms for years because they lose their honey holes to someone willing to pay a premium price. Love it or hate it, but it is the way the breeze is blowing.

I lived here in MT all my life never heard of Yanna. LOL I have no clue where you are going calling at.

IMO bucks are like guys. If a certain bar has alot of girls (does) why would you go anyplace else ? So if an area has alot of in heat doe,why would the bucks go anywhere else ?

DR.Alt,is that you????

I was thinking the same thing!

Bet the night hunters like these regs.
A shot in the dark made me think of that for the first time.

Didn't the Doc get promoted to a cushy sales position?

Gary Alt did not want antler restrictions to play any part in what he was given the task of doing-reducing deer numbers(herd reduction). It was a trade off to please deer hunters by filling their heads with images of "trophy bucks" being common enough that even the most casual hunters had a good chance of killing one.

Young bucks are supposed to be the deer that are most likely to travel far from their place of birth. If that is a fact, ARs could be speeding the spread of CWD. Plus, I don't think the PGC has any place dictating what qualifies as a trophy to any hunter who buys a license.

Grhkl this post is to back up a claim NOT CURRENT !!!!!

You sure did a horrible job trying to back up a claim
Sure didn't seem like I ran away from that thread so fast my shadow didn't know where I went
So, you're the " older gentleman" that figgered out the average?

Hooked on Phonics and whatever medicine folks with dementia take should be on your Christmas list.

Don't know Bucks, I see where you claim...."pushing 400" a couple pages back.

Indeed I did hippie, but bigmouth JByrd claims I said " over 400".
I'm just here the prove him a LIAR, and I DID

Kinda splitting hairs, you threw out the 400 number but are correct that you didn't say on or over.

I knew I didnt ;
Moving treestands from bear spots to deer spots today.beautiful day to be in the woods.
Don't care to play on the internet while doing so but it's like a train wreak. Ya can't help but watch it

Now Hippie, ( and others), since he thought he " had me) and said I should pay up on the bet, do you feel he accepted that bet?

Yep

Only thing buck were did I get the number 400 pull it out of the air. NO it came out of your mouth

I for one, do not. I need to rephrase, sorry. I meant he did accept that bet and fell short. I apologize because I got the wording wrong. I have had to eat crow before and took it. I think jbyrd should do the same.

He without any shadow of a doubt showed he accepted the bet when he held you to it.

Keith

We have foot long spikes here that have been passing along those genetics for years. Would make more sense to leave the big ones to breed.

Defense fund :
Page 3 of this thread I see “pushing 400 deer killed”.
Carry on......

I live in South East Kansas and also choose to bow hunt mature deer. Let many, many lesser bucks walk to see a 150+ during daylight. My choice. When I take the kids they can shoot any deer they want.

Hey yank. Its pronounced hurns, not horns, and deers got em.
I'll give you a pass this time since you come from a beautiful part of yankeeland.