How much has paganism influenced Christianity

I see religious post about Jesus and have to wonder, how, long after Paganism, did Christianity after copying Pagan practices take root? Other than a forced concept by the ruling, does anyone know?

Substantially.

Just about every modern, mainstream Holiday has pagan roots. I think the only thing I see commanded to be observed in the Bible is Maundy Thursday. Maundy being a word from way back when meaning "commandment".

Who cares ? Does anyone here trap ?


Just Wondering

Heh heh heh

Yer killin' me Outlaw

I don't understand the question; do you mind rephrasing it?

Hi Les, yes we do. And believe it or not there are other conversations going on other than trapping on the trapper talk forum different from the trapping only forum, go figure lol.

What don't you understand?

An answer to your question


But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:


Acts 8:9


Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:14


And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Act 8:18


This Simon would travel to Rome, where he would be known as Simon Pater, and be claimed to be Simon Peter. Pater mean "papa" and he would found the Universal Religion, which is what Catholic means. In order to gain acceptance, increase membership, he began incorporating all of the pagan practices from "The Dead Sun Day" which would be overlaid as the Christ mass and Easter, the fertility rites of spring over Passover.
So the answer to the question is, from the moment the Apostles began their commission there were satanic forces engaged in the great deception.

I'm not trying to be a smarty-pants, I know that you know what you mean by " how, long after Paganism, did Christianity after copying Pagan practices take root", but I can't quite figure out what you are asking. Just try rephrasing it a bit.

Paganism was here long before the bible from what I understand, it seems as though the people who wrote the bible plagiarized. A lot.

The pagan aspect may not impact the Christian tenets that much but in many of the symbols and rites there is considerable influence things such as incense, lilies etc. etc. If one would consider all the Jewish traditions prior to the onset of Christianity well then the door swings wide and very wide open.

Bryce

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'd have to see what particular things you are alleging Christianity "plagiarized' from paganism. Judaism/Christianity and their roots have been around for probably five thousand years at least. The story of Job was written down by Moses almost four thousand years ago, but told a story about a guy who predated Abraham (way before Moses).

When did the paganism that you refer to start?

If you are referring to recent pagan things like; Easter (estrous, fertility, bunnies), Christmas in December on winter solstice instead of when Jesus Christ was most likely born (October), worshiping a woman (Virgo the Virgin), then the answer is easy. All that stuff was introduced by the Roman Catholic Church as a melding of the rapidly growing number of Christians in Rome and the preexisting pagan religions. This was more of a political/strategic move, this happened about 325AD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity

Before my Catholic friends get their feathers all ruffled; I'm not saying this to start an argument, but the history here is just plain fact. Other denominations have also introduced goofy things that have no basis in Christianity. In the Baptist church I grew up in, men having long hair was a sin, wearing denim jeans to church was a sin, swimming on Sundays was a sin and on and on and on. Thankfully that church was able to see the error of all that silly stuff. I hope the things going on in the Rome Catholic Church will cause that church (the people) to see the silly things they have been holding on to.

I don't know what you could be meaning about the writers of the Bible plagiarizing from pagan writings. I'm sure false religion is as old as Cain. I'm sure some of the writers of the Old Testament wrote their books using other historical sources - both written and oral. When Moses wrote the Pentateuch I'm sure he had access to prior historical documents that recorded genealogies, historical events, and so on. But that can't be what you mean about the writers' plagiarizing, can it?

I've heard of other ancient stories that are very similar to stories in the Old Testament - stories of universal floods and creations stories similar to that of what is in the Bible. Some say these other stories show that the Old Testament history is just another set of ancient myths. But I would think that similar stories found in the writings of other ancient cultures would lend some credence to the story's basis in true fact. That is to say, if many ancient cultures have stories about a great flood (and they do), that may be evidence that there is some truth behind them.

I know Christians have adopted and adapted many pagan traditions over the years. I don't think these traditions ARE the Christian religion or that Christianity became what it is because of these pagan beliefs or practices. Rather, I think when Christianity takes root in a culture, it eventually transforms the existing traditions and changes their meanings and significance. For example, rabbits and eggs were once pagan symbols of fertility and new growth. But Christianity has transformed those pagan symbols to remind us about the resurrection and new life in Christ. I think the Christmas tree was originally a pagan tradition but now the Christmas tree reminds us of the tree upon which Jesus was crucified. Those are just a couple of examples and I am sure there are hundreds more. But that doesn't mean Christianity is based upon or derived from those pagan roots. Rather, it means that the Christian religion has overcome those pagan religions and transformed the symbols and traditions into new meanings.

What do you mean about paganism being here long before the bible? I'm sure false religion is as old as Cain. But that's not news to anyone.

Modern Christian holidays and celebrations are not specifically commanded in the Bible. But we see in the Old Testament that God commanded his people to observe certain feasts in remembrance of the things he had done for them. Old Testament believers often erected monuments to be physical reminders of something God had done. The nation of Israel was commanded to observe many traditions to set them apart from the nations around them. That old ceremonial law has passed with the coming of the New Covenant in Christ's blood. But the precedent of observing religious holidays and keeping religious traditions is firmly established by God himself. So, while modern Christian holidays and traditions are certainly not commanded in the Bible, they are definitely not prohibited or to be discouraged.

"How much has paganism influenced Christianity"

The devil makes mistakes all the time. lol

Seems like two different questions are being asked: Did the church adopt pagan customs is far different than asking if the writers of the Bible borrowed from pagans.
The writers wrote what they observed. The question still doesn't make sense to me.
There were very early writers who wrote false versions of the gospels. They were written by people with no direct connection to the apostles and so, were easily understood by the church at that time to be fakes. In modern times, people have tried to bring up the false gospels as if they had some legitimacy, but they are gibberish. Just like today when you have people today taking bits and pieces of the Bible and mixing it with myth and created false religions.

What makes you think its not the other way around?

It's proven in history that paganism was here long before Christianity. And I say paganism in a very broad way because after Christianity everything else was considered paganism. It's also proven that the Christians forced pagans to convert to Christianity.

As religions go, christianity is the new kid on the block. Other religions are way older then it. Thats why its not the other way around. Of course the hard core bible folks will say NO NO NO we are the first , one and only and all that ...it says so in the bible. Ironic that the question is asked by " catch 22 "
One among may things for certain. The folks who built Stone Henge put it there way before christianity was thought up.

I'm certain Christ thought up the folks who built Stonehenge long before the existence of the rocks of which it is made.

Scuba1
I think you might be incorrect in your assertion that "The folks who built Stone Henge put it there way before christianity was thought up."
How do you know that? Stonehenge is about 5000 years old, Moses wrote the first five books of the bible nearly 4000 years ago, Abraham lived many years prior to that, and Job probably even earlier. The God they acknowledged and revered is the God of Judaism/Christianity. Technically speaking, Christianity is a sect or outgrowth of Judaism.

The age of Stonehenge is disputable, as are all things. I'm curious about what "forced concept" Catch22 is making reference to.

Who or what came first really doesn't matter much anyway. There are still probably people in far off reaches of the planet who haven't heard about the God of the Bible or Jesus Christ, they may even practice what some might call "pagan" religion. However, the scriptures of the bible acknowledge that God will judge these people justly. A person is responsible for how they respond to God's prompting.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:20

Christianity was forced upon pagans. Forced conversion by making older religions illegal and punishable by death. Convert or die, which sounds a whole lot like the quran. I'm just saying, Christians say that the quran isn't true for a multitude of reasons including it wasn't written until hundreds of years after the bible. The bible came long after other religions, so why is Christianity the one real and true religion?

^^^^^^^
Happy you asked. True Christianity is the only "religion" in which God is pursuing man, and trying to get our attention. Other religions put man in the position of pursuing God, and trying to gain his attention and his acceptance of them.

Even certain sects of Christianity have adopted some of these false and Pagan practices, such as self- mutilation (nailing themselves on a cross, etc, etc). These practices are totally bassackwards. God does not want us punishing ourselves to try to gain his acceptance, he is waiting for us to accept him.

There is a famous poem written in the 1800s by a homeless, down-and-out heroin addict named Francis Thompson that describes God's pursuit of us, it's titled "The hound of heaven".

Waggler, I really enjoy your post, and not just on this thread. You have a great way of explaining things and coming across in a good way and I thank you for that. I understand what you are saying, I was brought up in a church of God, and left it. I guess my question is, Christians believe in their God, muslims believe in their thing and so on. Pagans believed in Odin, Thor and the like. Why are Christians right?

Being something of a staunch Calvinist, I don't view God as being a beggar. When it comes down to it, it's we who need to be found acceptable in God's sight. Until we see ourselves as God sees us, that isn't going to happen.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head that squares with what you're claiming. Constantine? That as 300 AD and that was strictly a political move. The RC church? The Crusades? What are you referencing?

The reason Christianity is a relatively new "religion" is because it couldn't exist prior to the crucifixion and resurrection. If you think about it, to be a Christian, you have to believe Judaism was the belief God instituted originally.

Posco, that opens up a whole other debate (Calvinism vs. Arminianism), I don't want to get into that debate here, although I and my Calvinist friends do have a good time with the question.
Personally I don't think either side can really defend itself totally, I'll let God work all that out, I think it would be impossible to really know God's mind regarding some of those things anyway.

However there is nothing we can do to "be found acceptable in God's sight" only Jesus Christ was able to do anything in that regard; which was being punished in our place and paying the debt for our sin. Otherwise, it would be to our credit for our salvation if it depended on what we were able to do.

I had a good friend who put most of the emphasis on "free will" and we went round and round about that. I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

After the flood there were only a handful of humans. So with all the incest how did different races and religions come to be? Why did judaism disapear completely from many parts of the world. You would think the original one true faith would have survived world wide at least among some scattered sects rather than disapear from whole continents

Good point.

X2! Rebuttals?

Interesting discussion.
Being Lutheran, I don't hold to either Calvinist double predestination or Arminian free will.

Catch 22, in asking why are Christiana right, this is why people often say they won't talk religion or politics. There's a discipline called apologetics, but it's more about defending the Christian faith from attacks on its validity rather proving without a doubt that it's the sole truth. Faith and hope are components of religion because the validity can't be proven utterly. So adherents of a religion believe it. It can't be *proven* right. A believer finds the religion personally compelling.

With some of the rest of the points being made there's a lot of generalizations tossed around. Pagan is a loose term to describe any polytheist and wasn't a term until quite recently that anyone would use to self identify. Christians don't consider themselves a new religion but a fulfillment of Judaism.

Judaism is a term that usually refers to the religious practices of the Jews that were developed at the time of Moses. That was hundreds of years after the time of the flood. It was an extremely simplified belief that existed before 1500 BC. With Danny's question, it's not that Judaism disappeared from parts of the world but the developed religion wasn't scattered to begin with. Regarding "incest" after the flood, the relationships would be first cousins between the three brothers' kids.
_

^^^^^^^
Catch22
I don't know that Judaism has disappeared from any "continents", its practice may have waned in many areas though. I think the transition of Judaism into Christianity may account for much of the change.

I'm just guessing here, but after the crucifixion of Christ (the ultimate and final sacrifice) Judaism abandoned the practice of animal sacrifice. My theory is that many, if not most Jews are subconsciously aware that there is no sense in sacrificing anything anymore, since the time of the veil tearing at the temple in Jerusalem (at the moment of Christ's death on the cross).

The original Jewish faith is still alive and has been completed within Christianity. I know my Jewish friends would have more than a little trouble accepting this hypothesis, but I think it might help explain it.

Brian mall had another religious post about the first promise that God gave to people in Genesis 3. At its core, Judaism/Christianity were always looking for a child that would come from God, born of a woman, that would overthrow the devil and all authority that he had laid claim to humanity. That promise existed from the dawn of time through the time of the flood and was unpacked more during the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and eventually Moses. That promise was global, that is, it would have been scattered throughout the continents. That promise, being maligned, easily could have been the source of the belief in demigods that are scattered throughout polytheistic religions.

Most all of the animal sacrifices in Judaism were to be at the temple. Since the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD the Jews have had no place to sacrifice. That ended the sacrificial system. God used the Romans to end the sacrificial system because Christ had come as the final sacrifice. The Jewish mindset had to change from then on; either recognize that what Judaism had looked for (the Messiah/Christ) had come and embrace Christianity or reevaluate Judaism in the light of no sacrifices ever again except for the passover lamb.

Hmm

As a Christian, we are all called out of one life style or the other. Those lifestyles have influenced Christian "cultures" for sure! But none have been around longer than God or Christ. But all those have left God/Christ.

There is only one truly riteousness/perfect model of a life. That model or prototype is Christ! That model or prototype has been foretold from the beginning. Everything else is either vanity and/or out right t rebellion against God.

Brother Brain says y'all better get right with the Lord, or get off the boat!

Where was your God before Hinduism, Buddhism etc? Are you saying that your God made the heavens and earth and allowed other religions to take place before he introduced Christianity.

Religion started when the first conman met the first fool

Christians are the first democrats I guess by using the dates that other religions have had long before christianity existed. Like obamacare " you can keep your fertility celebration " just name it easter from now on. Zombi day would have been non PC i guess.
And before anyone starts asking. Religions of any sort for me a right up there with the Oijiboard and sticking pins in dolls and invisible friends and other ghosts and demons.

Then I guess we can't count on you for a donation?

If its for a good cause, sure you can Hal. I have brought my catch ( fish ) to the church pantry to help the less fortunate. A couple of friends of mine are very involved with the local church. Nothing wrong with helping folks in my book. Those same folks also know that they ain't going to see my butt parked on a church pew on a Sunday ( or any other day for that matter. )

It's nice to see that the needy folks you help, don't care about your butt.

If we all had an attitude like that, the world would be a better place.

Namaste.

Hare Krisna.

As-salamu alaykum

Wa Bapa, Loopa Lappa, Lop Bam Boom.

Didn't know you speak Greek Hal

And they lived happily ever after!

I'm fluent in Canadian too, eh?

Sorry, but the Simon story doesn't quite cut it. Need to study the Bible a little more and Bible history. Simon Peter,not pater, went to Rome and was crucified upside down because he said he didn't deserve to die like his Savior, Jesus Christ.
This is the Peter that Christ called the "Rock" that he would build his church on. The other Simon was known as Simon Magus.

Welcome to the Forum Todd ....... ain't nothing like jumping in at the deep end

Welcome Todd!

Can anyone point to a single concept in Christianity, that was not previously in another religion. I can't think of any.

Keith

False religion spread to the rest of the earth after the tower of Babel.

Also I couldn't help but chuckle when I saw how many post you have now. Pure coincidence but funny nonetheless

That's 4 not 3. But just the same, follow me heathen lol. The story of the tower of babel was written after other religions existed, so.....

Anyone???

Predestination... duh...

Most books are written about things that already happened... silly

According to the people that practice the Christian religion They were the first. A claim that almost every other religion has as well. With close to 4000 different religions out there its a huge amount of choice. I would probably pick the wrong one so am not going to bother.

In 1975 the Reds will win the world series, mark my words.

Catch you are beginning to sound like Ginsberg

You’ll make millions with a prophesy like that....

Next you’ll tell me the Phillies win in 2008.

I don't think he can see that far ahead

You have to believe, if you don’t, you’re wrong.


Get the Ouija board!

See this has become some Christian bashing thread. As for me I'll keep on trusting in my "imaginary Friend" . Y'all boys can keep trusting in your imaginary wisdom.

Take that back you kraut lol.

Honestly J, I don't want to give that impression. I started this thread out of honest thought. I was raised in the church of God by parents who had us there whenever the doors were open. As I got older I began to question things and seek answers. What's wrong with that?

OkOK Just don't mention the war

Heck no ...... You must be very sensitive. When I start bashing things you would know it.
Not believing in something or taking it serious is not bashing. Almost every one of the almost 4000 religions claim that they are the first ..... Mainly because their particular deity was the one that created everything. None of them says ... yea the one from that other religion kicked it all off. And everyone believes that whatever religion he / she believes in is the right one and " bashes " all others as hokum.
So I for one am not bashing anything or anyone. I just don't take it serious.

What war?

So...religions don't exist so that the few can control the many ?

I thought you didn't careless les lol.

Nothing at all Catchh22. Enjoy such discussions and still have many questions myself. Just like political threads, religion threads seem to go haywire. Guess that's why the old timers said, " If you want to make enemies, talk religion or politics." No hard feelings though, I have no problem laughing at myself.

Right on J

Now Scuba you may be able to kill me with a piece of dental floss and a grain of sand, but comparing a man to a democrat...them there's fightin' words.

I am not comparing a man to a democrat. Just pointing out that there are certain similarities in how Christianity got its " customers ".
Stuff like ..... If you are not with us, you burn in......... the other lot had a slogan calling the ones that were not with them deplorable

I have been barely lurking, don't tell anyone.

Because Catch called me a Kraut

This one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

I won't tell, your secret is safe with me les. After all, if ya can't trust me who can ya trust lol. And I would like to say that there have been some good post that have gone unanswered, just saying.

Pure genius scuba!!

I know, I made one of them, lol.

What I have learned from this thread is that Catch has put the batteries of his crystal ball in the wrong way round and is now able to see into the past

That is hilarious!

My intentions are honest in the findings of religion scuba. I truly am seeking answers. If someone is forcing you to be here, signal with a code. Say, sauerkraut and we will come to your aid lol.

I was brought up a Christian .... Had many questions like you have. Found some answers and at some point Jesus and Santa walked out of my life hand in hand as it were and that was that. I do not begrudge people their religion in whatever flavor they prefer and if it helps them in times of need, I am happy for them.
I have talked to my friends and some of them are in church every Sunday. Sometimes wishing they were fishing with me when the weather was good. I have never sat on my boat wishing I was in church instead. In fact I have never thought that whenever I had some time with mother nature.

Interesting, why?

Why I stopped believing in religion ?? Is that your question?

Yes, what brought you to that scuba?

A whole host of things. The age of the earth and universe was one discrepancy with contradictions even within the bible. and when I pointed that out it was the age old answer for everything that does not quite ad up in the book. " You are not meant to take that literally. You have to interpret it right " Well over time all this interpreting it the right way to try and make no sense got old I guess. Then the broader picture comes into play that as I said, there are so many religions out there and everyone says . " Ours is the one and only right one and all others are blasphemy " Or some words along those lines. People have been killing each other for millennia because they do not agree with the religion of others.
This is it in a nutshell. The more comprehensive version would probably offend some folks around here and I'll keep that to myself, but you get my drift I think.
A fun fact is that even though I at times bring fish to the poor. A bit like one of their heroes in the book. Some of the more hard core bibelists are convinced that if I don't accept Jesus as my ........ you know the rest I will end up in a warm place. Fine by me as my bones never liked the cold much anyway. It confuses the heck out of some.

I'll have a stab at it.

The Ten Commandments.

The bible teaches against all the pagan influences you speak of Catch22.

Not all people who are "Christians" do the pagan stuff.

And when did these commandments come into play?

When Cain killed Abel, he broke one.

Don't have an exact date.

And that was how many years before "paganism"? The way I see it is the bible was wrote up to control people. How can you prove me wrong?

Hmm,
Maybe I'll have to reconsider Calvinism.

It was written to control people. Some think is was written by God others think it was written by man.

Well, God made the seventh day holy. So from the beginning.

Not many people I know keep the Sabbath. So I guess the bible isn't controlling too many people.

Catch ... what you are asking is a true catch 22 question. You see, almost every religion on the planet claims that its deity created what we call the cosmos. So by default there can not be a time "before" whatever religion one talks about.
Consequently, if you seek truth, you have to look beyond religions. <<< This one is not going to go down well with religious folks. And I must emphasize that this is my view. Its not written in stone and no one is going to get stapled to a oijiboard if they disagree with it.

And to add,

The Ten commandments...

Don't kill, steal, fornicate, covet, don't worship rocks, lie, etc ect.

You think these are about controlling people?

No Amspoker thats just common sense. "Treat people like you want to be treated" is pretty much the same thing in not so may words.

In this case the other religion is very, very, very obviously Judaism. That is completely ignoring the multitudes of clay and stone tablets , often with the same laws, produced by other cultures, before the 10 Commandments.

Keith

Keith, salvation is not earned(works) it is given(grace).

At what point in time? Why is your God the God?

The seventh day sabbath is a sign of God's people.

Formed at creation.

Kept by Christ.

Observed by the new testament church.

To be kept in the future.

I don't know many other cultures that kept that law for one example.

That is what the last six of the ten commandments are about. Love thy neighbor.

Has there ever been any other religion where the shepard died for the sheep?

Very, very, very obviously Judaism again before Christianity.

Keith

You said religions. Show me another religion with that concept.

Show me in the Christian bible, one scripture, where Sunday is holy.

Judaism and Christianity are different religions. The Christians took the Old Testament from the Jews.

Keith

One day reigion will never do, God expects all week from you.

I'm not making myself clear. And it is hard for me to type lengthy explanations on my tablet.Lol So g 'night.

Goodnight.

Keith

Reckon G'nite sums it up.

Why would you want to treat people as you want to be treated? Without a deity, you are left with: " Life is short, Grab all you can get and who cares who you have to trample?"
Right and wrong mean what in a world where there is no ultimate authority? Right or wrong are whatever one wants them to be in that world.

Again, that doesn't prove anything other than YOUR believe. So far, that's all there is.

No, the Christians rightly interpreted the Torah to prophesy about Christ and understood that he fulfilled all that Judaism stood for and the old laws were no longer needed. Do you know why Jews skip over Isaiah 53 when they read the Torah in synagogue?

And the people did what they thought was right for they had no king.

Do you believe some things are right and some are wrong? Why?

PAskinner that is the biggest load of bull posted in this entire thread. You are saying that because I do not believe in your deity it makes me a thief ??? I sure do not need or want a god to tell me whats right and wrong. My argument stands firm that treating people as one want to be treated works without the belief in a deity of any sort. War between religions on the other hand would not happen if you take religion out if that equation. Christians and Muslims have been beating the snot out of each other for millennia. And with the added user perversion of priests blessing the weapons used to kill the opposition.

To ad to that...... It looks like you need that belief in god, to stop you from running amok and I am happy for you that you have it.

Yes I do. Because of what was written before what you proclaim as God. I am a pagan, reckon.

Parents teach their kids what is right and wrong and their conscience is already made at a very young age. So if you were raised by cannibals you probably would not see any thing wrong with eating someone. After being born again the Holy Spirit will direct your conscience to what is right or wrong. The conscience is said to be the deputy to the soul.

The holy spirit is a late comer. Why is your God THE God, as a Johnny come lately?

PA Skinner Going by your logic I would not be surprised to see a pack of wolves in church on a Sunday as they have a pretty good social order without killing each other just to get what they can and then get out.

The people perish when they have no vision. There was no open vision during the period between testaments.

Dont need wolves when you have koolaid

I’m not a theologian, but there is a big difference between religious. Pagan, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity. All other religions salvation is earned. Christianity it’s given free by God’s grace, no strings attached. Grace

What was the vision before the testaments, before the bible?

You mean unless you believe that Christ is your savior, that's not a string?

The Holy Sprit only resided in particular prophets in the old test. the (HE) Holy Spirit was from the begining. There has been many dispenstions. I am very tired and please dont thinjk this is a cop out. Iwill be glad to show you some finger prints of God. So in the mean time with any other questions list them. I wouldn't miss this for anything. Perhaps when I awake after my first nap I can try to answer more questions or it can wait til the morrow.

Hadnt seen the string thing, but that is where I'm headed. Later

Sleep well Foxpaw!

I already responded to this by saying; Is there another religion where the shepard dies for the sheep?

Does this meet the single concept you are looking for?

I see no need to be trying to discuss something starting near the end to compare our similarities. So lets start at the beginning, do you beleive the world was created from nothing or did it just evolve from nothing.

Catch,
It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of the big things you're bothered by is that christianity is the new kid on the block.
I think Scuba is the one who mentioned 4000 some religions.
Scuba, btw, you make me jealous by your very existence every time you post! I'd love to get scuba certified but landlocked Nebraska doesn't really lend itself to that.

I'm gonna ramble a bit cause there doesn't seem to be much common ground to make any assumptions here other than we all trap and can write English. There's been a lot of generalizations tossed out and not all add up, kind of like someone saying "all furbearers spray". Most of us know better than that. Except Hal. I get a kick out of Hal.

Those 4000+ religions are kind of a misnomer. Most of them can be lumped together into categories. For example, Christianity isn't considered one religion but each denomination in Christianity is counted as a separate religion because it's a separate "group". That can make the list very long but not have a profound variety of religions. Not all of those 4000 have deities or gods. Buddhism, for example, has no god. Some religions are straight forward acknowledging that they are new and don't claim an "ancient" status, that concept isn't important to them. Not all religions claim that they were first. Nor do all religions condemn all other religions - Ba'Hai, for example, basically teaches that idea of "can't we all just get along" and there's truth in all religions.

They can be boiled down a bit into their respective species and just as mink, beaver and coyote have their distinctive smells, these have similar "odors" to distinguish them from the rest. You can argue the difference between a ranch mink and a wild mink but (I assume) they both smell the same.

First you've got the big three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You could lump Zoroastrianism in there but it never amounted to much. They all teach a resurrection of the dead at a coming Last Day.

Then there's the Eastern religions as a whole that really have no god, teach a generic good way of life and possibly reincarnation, hoping to end the cycle and avoid the physical realm. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Wuism...

Also paganism...in many, many, many forms. There's all of the cultural gods - some governed a country some an element... Greek, Roman, Babylon, Norse, Egyptian, Hittite, Akkadian... Native American, various African, aboriginal, Polynesian... There's old paganism that was just called "paganism" by Christians and new paganism that embrace the term paganism, like Wicca...unless it's the kind of Wicca that has no gods and is more like the eastern religions. Some of these cross borders from one category to another. There's so many but all have a similarity of various gods and/or nature worship.

Last is Hinduism and those religions connected to it/derived from it. Hinduism is like nailing jello to a wall. Some Hindus are polytheists like paganism and some believe in the generic way of life/reincarnation like eastern religions.

In terms of which came first...really, you have Judaism (Christianity and Islam are both dependent on it, in a sense), eastern religions in general, paganism in general, and Hinduism.

The eastern religions...the concept has been around but Confucius wrote down some of this roughly 500 BC. The ideas, some would say, go back to near 1500 BC but based on oral tradition or looser writings that Confucius consolidated.

Paganism in general - depends on which particular culture or group of gods you single out. Some aren't around any more. Knowledge of the old ones is based utterly on what was actually written down for some kind of preserved record. The biblical area in general is also where the oldest archaeological finds are of paganism, as well as the beginning of writing. The Hittites, for example, were around about the same time the very oldest Hindu writings were begun - both are supposed to be about 1700-1100 BC. Sumerian records are much older as they're the ones who are supposed to have invented writing (with three sided sticks, if I remember right). They're easily 1000 years older than most other religions. They're also not around anymore which leaves me to conclude they had puny gods. The Babylonians - there's record of the Code of Hammurabi. It's from about that 1700 BC time frame as well. That has a lot of laws similar to the ten commandments and some biblical laws, which shouldn't be surprising because they were from the same general area and relatively close to the same time.

The very earliest Hindu writings date to that really vague time frame of 1700 to 1100 BC.

Judaism - the exodus of the mass of Hebrew/Israelite slaves, led by Moses, dates to 1446 BC. Moses is generally understood to have authored the book of Genesis that predates him, presumably by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Typically this is understood as being guided to accurately write down the oral tradition that existed without error rather than have a strange ecstatic mystical experience to create the writing. Moses had at other times strange mystical experiences, don't misunderstand me. But the people were in Egypt for roughly 400 years. The bulk of Genesis describes Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, roughly 2000-1800 BC.

Oral tradition among all of these was important, especially in the early years. In modern day North America nearly everyone is literate so it's understandable to place great importance on the written record. But it's nearly impossible to date a religion based on oral tradition.

I would say that really early paganism and the core of what would become Judaism began roughly at the same time and that one was a maligned picture of the other. Being Christian, I think paganism is what screwed up. Hinduism came not long after and was a confusing mix. And eastern religions are really the new kid on the block.

Judaism, for most of it's history, was looking for a "messiah". There's a promise of an individual to Adam and Eve, to Noah, to Abraham, to David and the idea is explained more throughout the old testament of a specific one who would come from God to be a savior. Christianity emerged not as a new religion but the fulfillment of Judaism and what it had been looking for. Judaism continued because many Jews didn't believe that Jesus was the promised messiah and now Jews either still look for a messiah to come or have reinterpreted the promises to mean something different. Judaism fundamentally changed 2000 years ago and became something different.

Semi-random side note. 666...the meaning: in the book of Revelation there's no gray area - people are either on one side of the fence or the other. It's implied and expected the readers would get the idea that 7 was a number of perfection and 6 was a pretender number - wanting to be God but falling short. People were either marked/baptized with 777, the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or, if not, they were marked with the pretender, unholy trinity, the devil, the beast and the other beast that had been introduced in the book by that point.

Regarding forced conversion...no one was ever forcibly converted to Judaism. Typically you were born into it. The first few hundred years of christianity it was illegal and if anything, Christians were forced to deny it. Constantine made Christianity legal but it was hundreds of years before the was much forced conversion. Yep, sadly it existed. It was a bad thing. It's the typical human reaction to getting power and favoring their special interest. It doesn't make it ok.

The big bang theory is a guess. It's just as much based in faith as any religion. True science getting repeatable results is impossible with evolution. There's good science that concludes a young earth, however there's also a lot of really sloppy science by well intentioned Christians that has made the idea of a scientific young earth laughable.

Unique concepts in Christianity. Death and resurrection of a deity isn't a new thing. But the death of the deity (Jesus) for the benefit of people, and not for their agricultural benefit or earthly benefit but as a sacrificial act on behalf of the deity (and not the people) to provide an eternal life for them. That's unique to Christianity. Also the resurrection of the dead is unique to Judaism/Christianity...and Islam (the skunk of religions). A physical resurrection...nor reincarnation, not zombies...

"The bible was written to control people." Not sure what you mean. I have some rules to control my kids but it's to keep them safe or keep general order in the house. Though we may disagree with them, each state has trapping regs to control harvest. Is that what you mean? Or a different kind of control?

One of the quirks that has come up with the difference between Judaism and Christianity is how the law is viewed. The law had set the Jews aside as unique because the Messiah would come from him. Once he had come the unique laws were understood in the new testament to have been fulfilled.

Don't know if this answers any of the questions satisfactorily. It's long enough...it should count as more than one post. &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;

[quote=trapperrev]Catch,
.




Regarding forced conversion...no one was ever forcibly converted to Judaism. Typically you were born into it. The first few hundred years of christianity it was illegal and if anything, Christians were forced to deny it. Constantine made Christianity legal but it was hundreds of years before the was much forced conversion. Yep, sadly it existed. It was a bad thing. It's the typical human reaction to getting power and favoring their special interest. It doesn't make it ok.


Your part about no forced conversions to Judaism isn't exactly true. During the Maccabean war they forced the Idumean people that was of Esau's bunch. They forced them to Judaism and out of that lot came Herod. The one that killed all the babies. The sin cost them all of those babies.

Scuba. Have you ever stole,anything in you life?
Then what does that make,you?

No sir Catch. We have free will. You believe or don’t believe. Grace is a free gift take it or not.

Trapperrev, thanks for posting that. Good read

So, true! I think this is by far the most profound statement in this entire thread. It is the very crux of the story of the fall of Adam's race. That statement truly gets to the core nature of mankind as described in the Bible. If you were to try to lay out the basic tenets of Christianity on one page, that would be one of the first couple of sentences.

Scuba1, you have perfectly and succinctly said about yourself exactly what the Bible claims is the central nature of each one of us. Thank you for so forcefully providing a real world example to show the wisdom and truth of God's Word.

Some one said they had 4000 different religions
But that is not true. There are only 2, one worships the one and only GOD (the creater,and sustainer of all things),
And the other worships created things.
Wether you know it or not all people worship one or the other.
What do you worship? What do you trust in? Is it yourself?

Do unto others?
Have you stolen ?have you lied?have you cheated,have you hate in you heart? Ect etc etc...... ever?
Have you violated your own laws.? You can't even control yourself. Be honest

I'm glad I have a GOD that is perfect. . That is,who I trust in

My GOD is the only one who not only make laws for us to live by to protect us,from ourselves and others,
He is also the one who has the power to fufill them himself.

You find that one you know you got the right one

Foxpaw,

You'd mentioned:
Your part about no forced conversions to Judaism isn't exactly true. During the Maccabean war they forced the Idumean people that was of Esau's bunch. They forced them to Judaism and out of that lot came Herod. The one that killed all the babies. The sin cost them all of those babies.

Yep, forgot about that. Thanks.

I'm not saying you are anything. I'm asking why we should treat each other a certain way, if there is no law but the law of survival of the fittest? You say you don't want a god to tell you right from wrong. Then, what is right and wrong? It can be anything! Now in some religions, I'm told that lying to your enemy is considered a good thing. Again, why are they wrong? All you have is: "It's wrong because I say it is." Really?

Yeah, because I'm a sinner and I know it. And so is everyone else, and you know it, or you would not say we should act a certain way. There is no "should" in a world without an ultimate authority, there is only survival.

What was written? By whom? What gods or goddesses do you worship?

Every other religion is about trying to be good enough to please a god. Only Christians have a God who came down and became us to save us from ourselves. It's not about trying to be good enough. It's about believing He already has done what was needed to save us. It's not a performance, it's a relationship.

Most Christians confess that natural law is written on man's heart so that regardless of belief all people have an inherent understanding of morality. Typically called the conscience. People can teach contrary to it and a person can mute their conscience and immorality can abound without feeling guilty. Right and wrong are typically ingrained. In what religion is lying to your enemy good?

[quote=chickenwing
Scuba. Have you ever stole,anything in you life?
Then what does that make,you?[/quote]

Yes I have . And I will never forget it.. It was an oil lamp from a road building site. It ended up being the one and only whooping of my life I got for that from my grand father. Does that make me a thief ?? You figure it out.

But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut

Then there was the matter of working for a girl 7 years and not getting her but her sister.

Then there is getting the first born blessing , if it wasn't lying it was a misconseption

Not good!
5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these even

When the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) crowed Peter said no I don't know Him

Nehemiah
17-18 Then I gave them my report: “Face it: we’re in a bad way here. Jerusalem is a wreck; its gates are burned up. Come—let’s build the wall of Jerusalem and not live with this disgrace any longer.” I told them how God was supporting me and how the king was backing me up.

They said, “We’re with you. Let’s get started.” They rolled up their sleeves, ready for the good work.

"And then there was that little white lie "the Mexicans are paying for it" Sorry couldn't help it! The Devil made me do it.

Foxpaw,
Earlier PAskinner said this:

I had assumed he meant another religion other than Christianity.

You sent three messages - your first you have examples of people lying. Jacob lying to get Esau's blessing and Laban lying about which daughter he's giving in marriage - neither are ever described as good. They're just not explicitly condemned.
Rahab...yep. Good example

Ananias and Saphira are clear examples of lying being bad, not good, as is Peter's denial of Jesus when the rooster crows.

We,all are scuba
I hope you have a day full of love ,joy , peace,patence,kindness,goodness,faithfulness,gentleness,and self control

Was the world created by intelligent design or just evolve? I'd like to determine this for a starting point.

trapperrev - a very good post and one that will give me somethings to think on and study.

In what religion is lying to your enemy good?(Quote)

Islam, I believe.

Yup

Namaste.

Just because people lyed in the Bible doesn't make it right. By that reasoning, anything can be justified, because the Bible just records peoples deeds, good or bad. Fortunately, it also often records God's reaction to thier actions.
Yep, we are all lyers, rapists, murderers and thieves. If you have thought of doing it, you are guity of it. Until a person recognizes that, they will never understand the gospel, or the need for a dying Savior.

That's because you've never seen yourself the way God sees you. One peek at what God sees and you'd rather been born a dog.

The Big Bang closely resembles what the Bible describes as the creation event. Ex nihilo...out of nothing. I'm not suggesting I hold to the BB theory but it's the best and most generally accepted model science to date has got.

The Judeo / Christian Era is but a tiny blip in the space/time continuum .

Man is a tiny blip in same. Amazing how much knowledge man has accumulated in these last days. Just as the Bible says.

And yet Christianity is still on the rise 2000 years later. Still the fastest growing religion in the world, in spite of the shift in demographics. Hmmm..

The many parts of the earth you speak of were uninhabited after the flood, so Judaism didn't disappear- it just failed to appear until the Christians came to those continents and killed or subdued the " heathen aborigines"; making it safe for other religions to live there/here.


Do you think Judaism existed (and waned) in Australia, the Americas, India, or Asia prior to European invasion?

I think what turns a lot of people off is their new earth idea where the earth is only a few years old. I think that was started to put down evolution by saying there isn't enought time for evolution to have happened. I have coal mine buddies that find fossils of ferns etc. I have had guys tell me it was made that way, and If I questioned it I was against creation. Same way with oil. I put put the question to them how did the mountains on the east side of US get so wore off and not the Rockies. I have saw estimate that it took 200 thosand years to wear off. But they seem to think they was made that way and if I don't then I am questioning God (really I am questioning their ideas)

Many think philosopy has corrupted me. Socrates and Plato were searching for the truth. The sciences have picked from there and no longer start at 0. They want to start out in the middle and say that is the way it is.

Phi is 1.618 or .618 It is a golden mean or ratio. Even pyscholgy follows those ratio's. You can start anywhere out in the middle and come up with ratio's. Someone has to finaly start at 0+1 +1 +2 +3+5+8+13+21+34+55 and on out to eternity.

I am trying to cut some wood while the sun is shining, but I will continue looking for this thread. Til later

Can you give a recent example of Christians beating the snot out of Muslims? It's true that Muslims have been killing Christians in many parts of the world today for being Christians. You can't give an example of Christian's killing Muslims for being Muslims today, though.

When you say you need no god, you label yourself a humanist. In the Humanist Manifesto, it's written that no god will save us, we will save ourselves. That has to be the saddest argument of all time. Because death must mean, to cease to ever exist, ever see former loved ones, total nothingness, nothing to hope for.

Odin hung himself on Yddragsil, the Tree of Life, for 9 days, refused all aid and pierced himself with a spear to gain the knowledge of runes, to save humanity.

Prometheus gave man the gift of fire, so that they might live and was tortured by having an eagle eating his liver every day.

Horus died to save people and came back from the dead 3 days later.

Quetzalcoatl went to the underworld of the dead, to make humans and then came back to life.

It is a very recurring theme that a God dies, or suffers deadly torment for their people.

Keith

I am reminded of a Mark Twain quote, if I may paraphrase " I thought my parents were ignorant and stupid when I left home 30 years ago, and it's amazing how intelligent they had become when I returned ".

Sorry about cutting that one up so bad.

I would bet Islam is just because of the incredible fertility rate amongst it's people.

Islam is the fastest growing religion.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-39279631/islam-the-world-s-fastest-growing-religion

Australian Aborigines have been where they are for 40 thousand years. Predating the Judeo Christian Era.

Not to be a wise guy but perhaps you should read the article you posted... Seeing as how the first line is: "Islam is the world's second-largest religion, after Christianity. "

Growth is number of converts, not the number of people born into a religion.

Growth is the number of new people of that religion from all sources, including birth.

Keith

Keeping in mind that I'm in agreement with you. But, when you're born a Muslim 99% remain a Muslim out of fear. Everyone knows of cases where a Muslim leaves Islam. They are shunned by their family or in many cases, killed. If you leave Christianity, they don't kill you.

One of the things Keith said is Islam is the fastest growing religion. I agree with that. This holds true not only because of the fertility issue, but in some areas of the world today, you can convert to Islam or be dead.

Why not just go and be with Jesus then?

How did they survive the flood?

They were strong swimmers.

X2, great stuff rev!

Geologic evidence proves the flood effected Mesopotamia only, contrary to the now popular myth, that it covered the whole world.

Keith

What was written? By whom? What gods or goddesses do you worship?[/quote]


That is a good question skinner. I am currently, and have been for a while a pagan i guess lol. I don't necessarily believe in a polytheistic type way, but I don't rule it out either. I personally believe that there is a all Father, the Creator of everything. The Creator may have a Mother earth type Goddess to watch over nature. I have been questioning things lately and thought I'd seek out some things. So far I am really glad I did. There is some really good stuff here!

A quick 'net search shows these things that make the 5000 year old creation suspect: Beads in Isreal 100,000 years old. 7000 year old observatory in Germany. Alcohol in China 9000 years ago. 10000 year old calander in Scotland. Tools in South Affrica 77000 years old.
Artifacts in South Carolina over 50000 years old. 13000 year old corpse in Mexico.

Kind of remarkable how nearly the story of evolution follows the creation story in chronology of life beginnings from the squiglies through to humans in all but the number of years involved. Big bang is almost how you'd have to describe the creation of the universe if you stuck right to the Genesis story - He said it and and was created out of the void-

Every thing in the entire Bible only speaks about a single family and that small part of the universe they occupied- Yet the three most important religions in the world have grown out of that family's story.

But there are myths of great floods in other religions also aren't there? I seem to recall a beaver story told by Amerindians.

The metaphorical flood....what flood ? Australia records no flood .

Actually, record numbers of Muslims are converting to Christianity, even in strict Muslim countries, where it can mean being disowned or killed.

Jarod Diamond wrote a book...Guns , Germs, and Steel. Great read.

I like the Gilgamesh story.Even has an anti-trapper. Also I like some of stuff about the earth was made in 6 days x 1000 =6000 yrs +4000 since it was made . The earth is only 10,000 yrs old. I've always had a good imagination but come on. The best one is the actual 24hr. a day 6 day creation. Problem is I dont think the sun was made til day 4. My thinking is those days were millions of years long.

I think that we have beaten that horse to a pulp in past threads. We came to the conclusion that some folks looked into a mirror and decided that it had to be evolution. Some folks read a book and said it had to have been creation.
Well thats the whole thing boiled down to the essentials anyway.

No point shopping all over the different gods if your an atheist? I wouldnt know to try to sell you a knew one or a fixer upper.
Ive had different church leaders tell me not to talk to atheist (or JW for that matter) I started telling them I'd rather talk to an atheist any day rather than a half-baked Christian.

Foxpaw I sure aint shopping around for a new or slightly used religion to use in my spare time. Even posting my usual BS on here seem like a viable alternative to spend some time.

But that aside what the heck was your god thinking when he threw you together when he put in the appendix. A totally useless organ that can just randomly kill you. Does he drink ?? Or just some warped humor on his / her side ??

Creationism is cruel

God: 8

Angel: 9

God: We should not do this drunk

Angel: 10 lol

God : 15 !!

Angel ( mouth full of pizza ) 25

God: 30 !!

Centipede: ( tearing up ) Stop giving me legs, I look stupid

God: ONE HUNDRED

Angel: LMAO

Well maybe that appendix thing is kinda like you get what you pay for. I mean like Eve causing Adam to get in all kinds of trouble. Yea but he only gave a rib for her. Just think what kind of woman he could have got if he had give an arm and leg.

Think about that rib? The only bone that regenerates. Why would he use that to make a woman and not some other bone or organ. Could have taken Adams appendix, what kind a woman would that have made?

Just a arm flailing eyes close stab in the dark kind of guess here. .... A mother in law ??

LOL, thats funny!

Lets just think about that rib for a minute. Do you think when that was first written, do you the guy that wrote that knew the rib regenerated?

Also when they was in the desert getting snake bit and lifted the bronz serpent up and looked upon it, that the cause was the cure. Was that a pre thought up thing that one day would be anti serum for snake bites, still the cause being the cure?

Well it's your life. I would avoid messing with so called " god's and goddesses", as Satan is quite adept at appearing to be something he's not, in order to ensnare people.

PA that statement shows how little you know about the pagan way of life, we don't believe in your Satan, remember he's a fallen angel?

in general, when we say “Pagan” today, we’re referring to someone who follows a spiritual path that is rooted in nature, the cycles of the season, and astronomical markers. Some people call this “earth-based religion.” Also, many people identify as Pagan because they are polytheists – they honor more than just one god – and not necessarily because their belief system is based upon nature. Many individuals in the Pagan community manage to combine these two aspects. So, in general, it’s safe to say that Paganism, in its modern context, can be defined as an earth-based and often polytheistic religious structure.

Some people in the Pagan community practice as part of an established tradition or belief system. Those people are often part of a group, a coven, a kindred, a grove, or whatever else they may choose to call their organization. The majority of modern Pagans, however, practice as solitaries – this means their beliefs and practices are highly individualized, and they typically practice alone. Reasons for this are varied – often, people just find they learn better by themselves, some may decide they don’t like the organized structure of a coven or group, and still others practice as solitaries because it’s the only option available.

Great post Wolfwomen. My belief's are definitely rooted in Nature and would be in with Earth based religion. I would welcome exploring with others, some anyway, but there is nothing around here that I know of. There are some groups in the big cities who have gatherings and festivals that I might check out but it's a drive.

I believe it is noted in the Bible that Jesus is the only one born already knowing right from wrong. I'll have to check that.

I believe in the Trinity because of experiences. I suppose if you are praying to Mother Earth and living a blessed life absent of correction or conviction one could believe as strongly in Her.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I feel I may be the only serious brain tanner in the country who is not an earth worshiper. At least, that's what it seems like when I look at all the young people who are into primitive stuff. Most are also into earth worship.
A religion that has no guide lines, no right or wrong, just a vague notion that there may be higher powers and generally a lot of talk about the sacredness of the individual. I don't think I'd fit into the primitive skills gatherings, because it's all backwards. We are not sacred, only God is. And everything is only connected in the sense that one Creator brought it all into existence and maintains is all. That fact that there is no belief in an evil force is exactly the danger. It's very easy to appear as an angel of light to folks who are open to anything, but basically believe in nothing for sure.

I really try to understand people without judging them. I mean say you got snake bit and looked up at a pole and received the cure. It might be easy to make an idol out of that pole.I dont blame people for worship of the creature, I was that way some, but I got to looking a little higher and for the creator and when I was younger did keep looking back over my shoulder and still try to mind my work here. I try to keep one eye one my works on earth and one eye on the heavens. Also Ive known a few total blind people that had faith that far exceded mine.

I,ve had dogs that ran by sight and coon tree a coon in minutes, and that was good as long as they could see the critter, but then you need a need a dog that can smell.

Even Gods original tribes kept wondering. Just look at the tribe of Dan. They couldnt leave the idols alone. Because of that they wont be the battle at tribulation.

That's not entirely true - as soon as I'm more awake and had my coffee, I'll get back with ya. lol



I'm betting there are more out there than you think there are - they can be hard to find because they don't want to be out in the open, tho it is becoming more common. The stigma still exists,

We oppose the use of negative, harmful magic and discourage people from hurting others physically or emotionally. We believe in the ethical guideline called the "Threefold Law," which states that whatever a person wishes upon someone else returns to them three times over. (Karma's a you-know-what!).

Often confused with Satanists, we do not believe in the devil. The concepts of the devil and (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) are part of Christian theology and have never existed in the pagan religion. We also do not believe in one almighty God, but in many gods and goddesses, this places us in the same category as Buddhism and Hinduism as a polytheistic religion. Since it is a nature-based religion, followers are encouraged to respect all living things. We can make sacrifices or offerings to chosen deities, but these offerings are usually bread, fruit, wine or flowers. We also love animals. We never harm or kill them in our rites or spells. Blood sacrifice of any sort is against our law. That 'eye of newt and toe of frog' stuff is nonsense.

There is no bible that's followed. We may make a "Book of Shadows", or may pass one down from a teacher of the faith to his or her student, but that BoS serves as a reference book. Also referred to as a grimoire, mirror book or magical diary, a BoS is a customized book in which a person records information he or she finds useful to practicing the faith. While not everyone has a BoS, those that do fill theirs with myths, ceremonies, spells, religious ritual instructions, prayers, herbal lore or personal records of dreams.

Not sure if that clears anything up, or makes you go "hmmm....." but, there it is...lol

Interesting. What are the spells all about? What kind of religious rituals and ceremonies?
What is harmful magic? Where does any power to do any "magic" derive from?
How do you justify killing animals or using their hides if animals are basically your kinfolk? I know you didn't say that, but this whole deal with animal spirits is a big part of it. Creeps me out, to be honest.
Everything i read about paganism is so vague and convoluted, mixing Native beliefs with other new age religions, that it just looks like a hodge podge of anything and nothing.
Having dealt with both spiritual attacks and with God speaking to me personally, I don't have to guess whether there is a real evil force or a real God who loves me.

Wolfwoman --------You probably make a lot of us very nervous, most of us are used to a driven(or take flight) to protector religion. Your word stiga gives me an idea but I will have to look some stuff up to get my facts straight. My self I'm prone to take the bull by the horns and sling him into the heavens. You mention you all dont do animal sacrifice, well then I guess no need for the koolaid or plastic bags just in case someone wants to catch the next comet! I'll think on this stigma thing some and be back later if I dont get stigmatized, lol!

Paganism has influenced a Society of non-Christians, who just think they are Christian.

Christians are the saved, heaven bound folks, according to the Bible. But society has no clue these days since the Bible is not taught in a studied out fashion and the Bible has been changed many, many times.....to suit modern man.

"Christian" no longer means "Christ-like" in our ruined Society.

You can’t really say an evil entity doesn’t exist in paganism as that’s a really broad context.

The Bible warns of "magic"...to stay away/avoid it.

A little more salt for the table in this discussion is that pretty much everything Wolfwoman talks about is all neopagan with roots ascribed to Gerald Gardner and his Gardnerarian style of Wicca . Hasn’t been around all that long as the thread is talking religious practice timelines.

PA - You seem truly interested in knowledge, as you're a Christian - I find that refreshing.

Spells, in a different context, are really no different than prayer. For example, one that I use quite often for friends and family in need: "Healing thoughts sent in flight, bring the brightest of blessings this very night. Send this healing white light from above, surround my friend in healing love."

Rituals and ceremonies are usually performed on pagan holidays, some of which I'm sure you're familiar with such as the Solstices (winter, spring, summer and fall equinoxes), and a few others (see pic).

Harmful magick, is just that - something that harms another person, or even yourself.

The power lies within all of us - I know that's vague, but if one truly believes then it's there. Think about Jesus and the things he did that people thought were impossible? Feeding the masses, rising from the dead? (this is a sore point with a lot of Christians, and I'm not trying to offend) but what he did was magickal and powerful. Also, if you don't know, a coven of witches consists of 12 followers and a coven leader. Sound familiar?

No, I didn't say that - and there's plenty of vegan witches out there. :rollseyes: I love critters, but I also realize that there needs to be balance in nature, and because we, as humans have so totally messed that up, then we have to try and make it somewhat right again. I don't necessarily believe that animals are my kin, because I think they're better, more pure than we are. I also believe that everything that's here on Earth was put here for us to utilize in good stead - and in moderation.

I'm definitely not saying there's not evil in the world, but I think it's a cop out to blame it on Satan - evil lies within each of us, but we have to make that choice on whether or not to give in to it. For some people, it's easier to be bad, than to be good.

Native American beliefs are pagan - as is everything not deemed Christian. The word pagan, simply put, meant country dweller back in the day. It now is a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.




Foxpaw, I'm not sure why someone like myself would make you nervous? I don't do animal sacrifice, but I do eat meat. Whenever I kill an animal I give thanks that it offered itself to me. Not a lot different than what Christians do at grace, right?

The problem lies within perception and what others do - there are people that do animal sacrifice, there are people that worship Satan within the pagan religion - what sets those of us apart that don't do this is we are just a very small part of that community. Sorta like all the different sects under the Christian religion; Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran and so on.

Actually, no I'm not. Wicca is a new religion, and that's not what I follow. The roots of what I subscribe to are closer to Native American beliefs, or shamanic beliefs, or even further back than that.

So, feeding the masses with a few fish and bread and rising from the dead. Pretty magical to me!

Correct, and I didn't say that. I said we didn't believe in Satan.

Now, I'll be back later today, I need to get working on a fox and beaver hat.

I've found this thread to be really respectful and that is SO good to see.

Catch22 - thanks for starting it - if you want, you can PM me to chat if you're interested in learning more, or post here.

But you mentioned you have a Book of Shadows, correct ? That’s a Gerald Gardner concept .

I agree. My quest for knowledge is so I know what to warn people against. Much that seems harmless isn't.
We are not god's. We have no power of our own. Any power comes from almighty God or Satan. The only spirit we should commune with is the Holy Spirit. I don't have anything against Wiccans as people, but I'm not condoning any of their beliefs.

"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)

Thanks Wolfwomen, I'm really glad I started it and agree that it has been a wonderful discussion thus far. I was raised a Christian and still very much respect their beliefs and practices. Honestly I believe that removing them from schools and such is why America is in the shape she's in now. Even if you don't believe, it's still a wonderful moral compass pointer outer. As far as myself, I do have a lot of questions considering my path. For fun today I got on line and took some "test" to see where I fall into paganism. Some said Eclectic, one said Christo- pagan but my favorite lol, was Heathen.

Are you sure y'all ain't strayed from the Lord?

No, I, personally do not have one (I'm lazy in that aspect). But I also mentioned items such as grimoire, mirror book or magical diary - BoS is just a easy term to use nowadays. Some of the most ancient grimoires date back to the 1400s or earlier. The earliest known written magical incantations come from ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq), where they have been found inscribed on cuneiform clay tablets that archaeologists excavated from the city of Uruk and dated to between the 5th and 4th centuries BC.

I was raised Catholic, but it never set right with me - watching people able to commit sins thru the week and banish them with a word on the weekend. I only respect those Christians that don't want to convert me. Once they start, I'm done with them. I don't do that to anyone, it's not my place to force someone to choose.

Heathen, really? So you're going back to the ancient gods and goddesses of Norse origin! You're a Viking! At least this is the modern interpretation of it, in actuality, heathen is just another name for pagan, meaning you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

There ought to be a law against witches, mediums, psychic, and warlocks especially in states with the lottery. Its not fair for everybody else.

Still looking for my stigma thing.

Yep, Heathen. I feel more Eclectic but am still on my journey.

And lol Foxpaw, I think you have just as good a chance at winning the lottery as us Pagans.

Nothing new under the sun!

Ancient pagans even had to worship the gods they were forgetting about or didn't know about.

Acts 17:23 KJVS
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD . Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

This war is over and this worlds days are numbered and it has been appointed to ALL of man to die at least once (physical death)! No little g God will nor can save you from that outcome. It's those who follow Christ that will not be delivered unto the second death (spiritual death)!

Only one paths leads to eternal security and peace. That path is Christ!

All others paths no matter how they are dressed lead to the same second spiritual death.

Where did you find that, I like taking those kinds tests, they're fun...lol

The war is over friends.

The only battles being waged at this point are for souls. And as you may or may not see? As simple as those battles may look on a screen with typed words from people you may have never or will ever meet? They are intense!

I love you all and hope and pray that God will tear down your walls and open your eyes! Amen

There he is!!!!

She did, many, many years ago.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Here's one of them Wolfwomen. I typed in what branch of paganism are you, and a bunch of these test showed up. They are fun.

Pagan religion test

I don’t know what this means!

Oh wise one!

According to that test, you are a Wiccan Rob.

I hope my wife dont start digging into definitions, she may make me quit those Irish girls. Alot of the Tribe of Dan settled there, now go figure.

I wouldn't let the internet tell me what I believe. Just saying.

Probably not. Old though...lol

I don’t know what that means

But it’s on the internet, so it has to be true!

Those test to me are all in fun but in all reality could be used for a newbie in the Pagan realm to start finding out definitions helping to determine paths to take. It would be the same as a Christianity test to see if you are more in line with Catholics or say Methodist.

Very true Catch!

It could help you on the path or give you a starting point in your journey.

My understanding is different. The new and old testament is a man made division.

There is an old and new covenant, same 10 commandments. That is why we disagree .

That was my understanding. That Jesus came to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament not to replace it, but to make a new covenant. To pay the debt since sinners cant hope to follow them or pay it. They are still in force, but the sinners have no way of following them. So he payed that debt.

I’m sure I’m wrong.

God came out with a New Deal and it wasnt in 1933

Satin tested Jesus, we humans killed him that tells us how evil we can be and are at times. Even the devil let him live.

Bryce

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Did we take his life or did he give it? or both

Yes