Comparing rattlesnake venom

Snake experts. Which rattlesnakes have the most lethal bites. Western rattlesnake or the eastern timber rattlesnake? The western diamondback rattlesnake vs. the eastern diamondback rattlesnake. Or in each case, are they about the same?

Grandpa -

I can't answer your specific question. I've been working with rattlesnakes in Idaho for over 40 years, and still catch, measure, and release a couple hundred of them every year. All rattlesnakes have more than 1 type of toxin in their venom. Of the two major classes of toxins, neurotoxins are prevalent in most elaphids while hemotoxins are more prevalent in viperids (rattlesnakes). There are exceptions, however. Also, every species of rattlesnake probably has 100 or more different toxins in their venom, potentially leading to a whole host of problems in a bite victim.

With all that said, I do remember hearing many years ago that in Idaho, the northern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) has more potent venom than the prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis). In Idaho, the prairie rattlesnake is only found in Lemhi and Custer Counties, while the pacific rattlesnake is the species that is found in the rest of the state (so your Idaho Falls snakes are Crotalus oreganus). Too, I remember that young snakes have much more potent venom than adults, but, of course, the volume is reduced. Gets pretty complicated.

In my old age, I no longer have the reaction reflexes that I once had, so I no longer catch (by hand) the larger Idaho rattlers. They are simply too strong for me to handle and I worry about losing hold of the head. In thousands of hand-captures (I don't use a snake stick due to injury to the snake), I've only been bit once. That experience was not overly pleasant.

Jack

No expert but the Eastern Diamondback is considered by most to be the most dangerous of our rattlers.The venom is similar in potency to the Western but the Eastern delivers 400-700 mg,whereas the Western delivers 200-300 mg and 100 mg can be fatal to humans.Many more bites are caused by the Westwer,as it is more widely distributed.

I believe the Timber is more potent,has longer fangs and probably delivers a little more than the Prairie rattler.These days,they have lumped so many species under Western Rattler that it gets confusing and venom strength varies among what used to be subspecies.Jack already mentioned the Norther Pacific but the Southern Pacific also produces a dangerous bite and that varies in parts of it's range.

The Mojave is known for it's large percentage of Neurotoxins and can produce complicated symptoms that don't show themselves for awhile.

I find it best not to get bitten by any of them.An ounce of prevention......

I agree with Taximan....an ounce of prevention is worth several bushels of antivenin!

I certainly would not want to fall down while I was in with these Western Diamond Backs.

Ouch!

I wouldn't want to get bit by any rattler. One bit from any of them can kill you...

Slice that hand and suck out the juice,like John Wayne.

My ounce of prevention is stored in a plastic tube crimped on one end, with metal on the other end and is filed with #8 lead.

So interesting , Jack....I have to say Im relieved that I haven't needed to be so on guard in the years here in the northwest as I was in Florida.

All I want to find is a rubber Boa around here to be happy about !

But thank you for taking the time to explain the amazing details of your studies. I had no idea it is so multi layered and complex.

Makes total sense, though.

On the surface.....

Another variable is that toxicity and composition can be highly variable within different populations of the same species. Recent research has shown that timbers in the southern states, particularly Georgia, have more virulent and neurotoxic components to their venom than timbers in more northern areas.

One thing you experts may be able to answer for some of us woodsmen/women. If your out in the wild, say an hour from your truck, you get bit by a rattler, what's the best course of action? I'm sure it's not to kill the nearest doe deer, extract its liver, cut X's on the bite, suck the venom out, and apply the raw liver. Just always hear different remedies.

Seek medical help immediately. No cutting, sucking or touniquets. Keep the victim calm, immobilize the bite if possible and held at the level of the heart, no ice/heat. The idea is to not excite the victim or raise the heart rate.
DO NOT attempt to kill/collect the snake or bring it for ID. Secondary bites can occur and ID is not required for treatment. There is one antivenin to treat all north american pit vipers and one for corals.

call ahead to the emergency room so they can get antivenom headed that direction. very few places keep anti venom on hand

P.S. lots of people are scared to death of snakes whether they will admit it or not. if a black snake bites them they are in panic mode. or any other snake. many many non veneomous snakes will bite if you accidently put your hand on them or something. many many people can't tell a timber rattler from a garter snake. a venomous snake bite will leave two clear punctures in the skin. a bite from a black snake for example can cause some very minor bleeding but it will be from multiple holes.

This is one reason why medical protocols for snake bite stress observation prior to treatment.

All rattlesnakes have the same potency venom, bigger the snake the more venom it has to inject you with(and longer, larger opening fangs to do it with). On this basis the eastern diamondback gets the biggest, therefore would be considered the most dangerous.

Actually,potency varies widely among species and even between individuals within species.It can even vary day to day in one individual rattlesnake.

More reason why observation is needed. While any individual bite may vary from "dry" to life threatening, adverse reactions to antivenin are known, older versions were notorious for it. Many milder envenomations like copperheads may not require antivenin at all. Though other medications and supportive therapy almost always are.

A big eastern dback has the capability of injecting nearly an OUNCE of venom during a bite. If that happens you can likely kiss your arse goodbye.

Or count on long term disability and huge medical bills. I was told a story of a guy in your dept that took a hit from one and after sixty something vials had to take medical retirement as the venom destroyed the discs in his back and went round and round with his insurance over a bill that was said to be well over six figures.

I read this as out here by yourself and you get bitten, the reply is as though your companion was the one bitten. And the advice to call the ER doesn't work in an area far from town.

So, self inflicted treatments? (other than Boco's cut and suck)

The experts say once bitten not to get the circulation going in the body since the more rapid the heart beats the venom spreads through the body. However, here in the Rockies, a person may be three hours walking distance from the vehicle and then the long drive to the hospital. You would have no choice not to stay still. I also read suction cups don’t work.

So how do you get that 3-4 miles back to the truck and then the 40-100 miles to the ER by your self?
Knowing what to do when near the hospital and with a crowd doesn't help much. Hiking out and driving are both going to require increased heart rate, even the screaming as you realize what happened is going to elevate your heart rate and increase circulation. Have to assume no cell service either.
I remember when I was a working ranch hand riding through sage brush high as a man on a horse and seeing snakes at eye level and thinking what could happen, I have the same thoughts when wade fishing by myself a mile from the truck and observing snakes in over hanging tree limbs.

As far as what to do if you get bit: Get to the nearest medical facility ASAP.

If you are remote and 3+ hours away from help: Get to the nearest medical facility ASAP.

There are a ton of gimmicks and folk lore out there about what to do if you are bit. Some of my favorites are suck the venom out and use jumper cables or a taser on the bite area to denature the venom. If any of this worked, medical professionals would be doing it all of the time. You best tool for a snake bite is car keys.

Some other food for thought that Warrior mentioned or alluded to is sometimes you can be bit and have no symptoms for the first 23 hours and then boom, the symptoms hit you like a pile of rocks. This happened to a friend of mine that got bit when we were in a creek in east GA a few years back. She got bit through her wetsuit. Other than feeling the pinch of the fangs, she didn't have any of the burning that most talk about. I took her straight to the hospital and they started giving her an IV drip of saline. Her leg swelled up a little but not much. They told us they wouldn't administer anti-venon unless the swelling went above or below a bone joint. They kept her for observation overnight. The next morning after she signed her release documents but before she could get dressed, she started having the classic symptoms of burning, nausea, vomiting, swelling, etc. They ended up keeping her for 3 more days and gave her several doses of anti-venin.

I was bit by a cottonmouth twice in 2014. The first bite caught me a little forward on the calf. The second was about an inch behind it. The bite bled, and bruised immediately and swelled up to about a 3 inch circle. It never hurt or burned. The doctor gave me a tetanus shot and told me to monitor it and get to the hospital if anything changed. Nothing changed so I chalked it up to 2 dry bites or perhaps some natural immunity to the venom.

The only thing that might be good to carry with you (other than car keys) in case you get bit is some antihistimines. Some folks that have major issues with snake bites die because of anaphylactic shock from the venom more than the venom itself. This is also very useful in case pets get bit as well.

Same as any other in the field medical emergency, HAVE A PLAN. If you know you're out of contact leave a trip plan and eta. Know how to self rescue, travel with others or know how to get rescue alerted and moving in your direction.

This is kind of interesting, though somewhat disputed: http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...esnake-study-provides-clue/#.YS4v9Y5KhhF .

I have come across a-lot of venomous snakes in my time in the woods. For the most part, they tend to avoid me. The only time I was every threatened was by a copperhead last fall around dusk. I was walking out on a 'trail' (not really a trail, but where I usually walk) in early December in Georgia. It was hard to see, but the unmistakable rustling in the leaves caught my attention. At first not sure what it was, I just stopped in my tracks. Eventually, I put my headlamp on the noise and could see a copperhead about 6 to 8 feet away striking toward me. I have never seen a snake attempt to strike from that far away and there is no way it could have struck me from that far away. I assume it was feigning. That time of year, snakes are starting to hibernate in Georgia and they often do it with many other snakes, even different species. Some species that they would normally be enemies of. I could see a little hole in the ground and I was unsure of how many more snakes might be there or close by. It was a little tense getting out of there as dark settled in and I had no choice but to walk by.

I have been told that Timber Rattlesnakes are generally considered to be the most dangerous because of the amount of venom they can deliver, not because of their aggressiveness, likelihood to bite or potency of the venom. To be sure, you don't want to be bit by any venomous snake. I have stumbled across more timber rattlesnakes than any other kind and they have always been hospitable. That said, I also try not to get within striking distance, generally considered to be 1/3 to 1/2 of their body length. I stay the entire body length away and watch for any signs that it might try to move into a striking position. Timber rattlers always try to move away in my experience. The same with cottonmouths, they try to avoid me. In fact, I nearly picked up a cottonmouth one time thinking it was a stick and it just slithered away. I was shocked. Most copperheads that I have come across are not aggressive, but they also stand their ground. They have not looked to me like they were trying to escape.

The most aggressive snake I have some across was a little 18 inch garter snake. That little guy lifted his whole body off the ground to try to strike me. Not sure what he/she was thinking. Black rat snakes are very friendly, black racers try to get away and they are fast. One time, I had a racer cornered and it was starting to get aggressive. I was simply filming it, but it didn't like my presence for sure.

Interesting thread ...and good info.

A search brought up this: The venom of a Mojave rattlesnake is widely considered the most potent of all rattlesnakes. I saw them in AZ. We called them Mojave greens.
My brother in law got bit in the back by a rattlesnake that he had baled in a round baler the night before. He didn't know it was in the bale, and when he was greasing the baler in the morning he got bite. His wife drove him to the hospital in Gt Falls MT and they did not give him anti venom. They said it was as hard on a person as the venom was. The hospital did nothing. He was in pretty sad shape for a while and he had some problems for quite a while.

I have read that several times

A friend of my wife's was bitten on the hand by a Mojave rattlesnake. Was close enough to dying that her priest on 2 separate occasions read her last rites. A week in the hospital and 31 doses of antivenom later she was back home. A year later she was bitten by another Mojave, but this time the reaction was less severe. It has been a number of years, but she still has problems with that hand.

Per Google: CDC says rarely more than 4 deaths a year in the US from Rattler bites.

True, actual fatalities rare. Long term damage a very definite possibility with our more toxic species.

If you are in cell range, call 911. If you're 3 miles back in at least it will get the ambulance headed your way. All ER's have radios in them. So when they hear that call go out they can start preparing the antivenom. It's refrigerated so it needs to be warmed before administering. My wife has told me of times that they have had 5 or 6 people standing in the er rolling the vials between their hands to get it warmed.

Make your way out as fast as possible without getting your heart rate up to much. It only takes about 60 seconds for blood to circulate through the human body. So sucking venom is absolutely useless. If you make it out before the ambulance arrives you can wait if they're not that far away. If you have another person with you, you can start towards the ambulance. Notify 911 that you are doing so. The sooner you get to the hospital the better off you'll be.


Some people have really bad reactions to the anti venom. I think she said it's an anaphylactic type reaction in a lot of people.

Rattlesnakes are protect in state, have only seen few them ever many years ago, I heard there not as many used be

Seems i vaguely remember readin in Klauber's books on rattlesnakes that volume to volume western diamond was the most potent. Those were thick books and read long ago, so dont quote me.

Had a taxidermy customer of mine that was bitten by a Pygmy Rattler once when he lived down in Florida. It nailed him on the end of his pinky as he was unlocking a padlock chaining a rowboat to a tree. He said it felt more like a bee sting. He went to the ER and they said just to keep an eye on it. His finger swelled all up, the tip turned black and after a few days part of the tip sorta sloughed off. That was about it. He pummeled the serpent at the time it happened and took it to the ER with him. He gave the snake to me (it was in a mason jar in alcohol) and I had it on display in my showroom for years.

That's the stuff nightmares are made of .

My father was a surveyor and in the 60's he was surveying in Pike Co Pa for the new interstate 84. The highway destroyed Pike Co and many land owners refused to sell so the state took the property under the public good. One property owner would drop white pine trees in their way when they were shooting line. Early one morning, as usual, the chainsaw started and he was back felling trees. The saw stopped and the crew heard a scream. They went to investigate and thought the guy cut himself w/chain saw but a timber rattler was hanging from his thigh cut off from the saw. By the time they got him to the survey van his thigh was black and they rushed him to Honesdale hospital. He was in the hospital for approx. a week and walked with a noticeable limp.