Why are pagans so critical of others?

Just because one is not a Christian does not mean they are pagans. There are millions in the world with other belief systems.

Bryce

Lets get some real perspective. There are around 7.53 billion people in the world. Around 2.4 billion of those people are Christian. 1.3 billion of those Christians are Catholics, who have one leader and a unified religion, going back to Jesus Christ and his very first apostles. The rest of the 40,000 plus Christian religions are relatively new to very new off shoots of Catholicism. The new Christian religions believe that the members of the other 40,000 some Christian religions and 6.43 billion non-Christians are wrong and are probably going to suffer eternal torment, for not believing as they do.

In my opinion, any all powerful God, who feels the need to be worshiped, but who can't get his message across to most people clearly enough to impress them into following him, who will then punish them for it, is a many expletives.

I think any decent God would just want you to treat others as you would like to be treated, within reason.

Keith

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the seat of judgment to judge God.

Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of imagined persecution from Christians?

Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

The lighthouse dudes clearly did not get that memo then. They peddle their version of christianity from door to door. Can anyone please let them know they are doing it wrong and stop that nonsense.

I sure am. I don't know the truth about God and believe that nobody else does either. I do believe that God is good, because most of his creations are good.

Keith

Doesn't sound like a Christian to me, after all Christians don't convert anybody, Christ does. Hence "imagined" persecution.

Pretty neat that you are the official spokesman for Christianity.

Pretty neat that you are the official spokesman for Christianity.

I think it is just human nature to denigrate those who think differently than you do whether its religion or politics.

Religion has been one of the major reasons for war throughout history and continues to be today. It is used to justify killing people, it is used to control and influence the masses by religious and political leaders. It has also become one of the biggest con jobs in history! The truth is it is for to easy to take advantage of people that have little else in their life to believe in. We all need something to believe in and hope for in our lives and it is easier for us to be told what we should believe than it is for us to find our own path and what is right or wrong. I doubt that any god would be happy with the results of religion in today's world.

Pagan's and those who are into Wicca are some of the most open minded compassionate people I have ever met.
They are also very close to nature, and understand how everything in nature exists for a reason and that all is there for us to use - but not exploit.

There's a woman in town who has a Wiccan shop, I went in there to get some candles, as I was kind of curious about this shop - and the first thing I saw was a real nice coyote head that was mounted and on display with some other interesting old artifacts.

I ended up staying there for well over an hour where we were both discussing the importance of mankind's role in ensuring that the wildlife numbers remain in balance, and when I told her I was a trapper, she had no problem with that at all, and in fact spoke about the beauty of real fur, how special it is, and how fur can never be taken for granted.

*now, I was raised a Christian, and had a pretty good understanding of both the New and Old Testament when I was in school.
I even went to church for many years, but then once I was older, I stopped.

why ??
because I started to see things differently, and more importantly I started to experience things on my own - and saw that those who were preaching the loudest were not true to Gods word at all.

Tell me Warrior, have you ever spent time with any Pagans or Wiccans ??
I for one would rather spend time with Pagans over Born Again Christians because the Pagans are not fanatical, they are as close to a back to nature type of folk that one can get.

*also, don't think I'm not a follower of Gods Word, quite the contrary - I'm just on a path that is leading more towards Judaism today...

I'm sorry if I have an open mind, but I am not sorry for having Pagan and followers of Wicca as friends....

And what would a good God expect of people? You already said the whole point was to treat everyone as you want to be treated, which is good and is something Jesus said, but he didn't stop there. He claimed to be the only way to God. And none of us treat each other perfectly, so we all fail, even in that, so perhaps we do need saving.

The closer to nature we become, the better we know ourselves.. That's why we're all here.. isn't it?

Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith

EdP is right on. Political threads are axed which I think is a good thing but religion is a personal thing for many of us. Of course we can choose to not open a thread but these religious debates seem to be more frequent lately.

Just my two cents. Maybe a religion forum for those who wish to debate/discuss?

Pete

cult
[kəlt]
NOUN

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

So who's worse, so called Christians killing in the name of religion or Muslims killing in the name of religion?

Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith

They worship the same Hebrew God.

, but then what would of us old men have to argue about.

But you aren't God, so how can you know what he wants? You can't, unless it's revealed to you, you are just another sinful person like the rest of us. Acting holy for a short period of time, yeah that would be pointless. But that isn't what church is about. It's about thanking the one who is holy for everything he is and does. Again, have you always treated everyone perfectly? If not, you need to seek forgiveness.

[quote=PAskinner][quote=KeithC]





Exactly that, a good God would want people to treat each other well.

I fail to see why a good God would want to be worshiped in a particular way and then be so vague about how he wants to be worshiped, that only very small groups of people can agree on what way that should be, leaving most people to disagree. The penalty for not worshipping in the correct way, according to most Christians, is eternal torment, even though it's God's fault that he was not more explicit about what he wants. It seems petty to want to be worshiped like that. It makes sense to be appreciative of God's creations. Kneeling, sitting, standing, reciting the same words, singing the same songs, acting holy for short period of time once or twice a week seems pointless to me.

Treat others well, be appreciative of what you have, work for what you need and try to be the best human being you can.

Keith

But you aren't God, so how can you know what he wants? You can't, unless it's revealed to you, you are just another sinful person like the rest of us. Acting holy for a short period of time, yeah that would be pointless. But that isn't what church is about. It's about thanking the one who is holy for everything he is and does. Again, have you always treated everyone perfectly? If not, you need to seek forgiveness.

I am definitely not God and I am definitely not perfect. I guess like everyone else what the true nature of God is. Creation overall is good, so I would guess God is good.

I pray every night and other times too. Part of my prayers are the "Our Father" and "Holy Mary". I try to be thankful while praying too and ask for help to be a better person.

Whether God agrees or not, if we all treat others well, be appreciative of what we have, work for what we need and try to be the best human being we can, things will be better for all of us.

Keith

The lighthouse dudes clearly did not get that memo then. They peddle their version of christianity from door to door. Can anyone please let them know they are doing it wrong and stop that nonsense.

Sure they will. But being a nice person doesn't save anyone.

The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.

Thinking like this is why there are 40,000 some versions of Christianity, most who dislike each other, except when they face a common enemy and need each other.

Thinking like this is also what turns most of us off from organized religion. I don't want to have to hate somebody over something that no one really knows about or can agree upon.

Keith

The Watchtower Society isn't Christian. It was founded by Charles Taze Russell who pretty much left orthodox Christian teachings and formed his own wild and crazy ideas about life. He made many predictions that never happened such as the return of Christ several times, the end of the world, etc. I wouldn't even favor them as being an offshoot of Christianity.

Many believe in a God that is way, way too small. God is way too inclusive for many who choose to use region to divide and demean.

Bryce

They do not. Allah is an ancient bedouin moon god morphed into the story of mohammed. Some initial followers of mohammed included members of a Jewish community in Mecca, hence the linkage to Jehovah.

I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith

Maybe because European Pagans have seen a ton of persecution from Christians?

Of course it's convenient to forget all the Christians fed to lions, burned, crucified, killed for sport, etc... by the pagan Romans.

Nobody permanently retains the title of persecutor or persecuted.

Mike

I've never witnessed a witch being burned, or drowned, or pressed to death. So the "longer lasting consequences" is kind of a puzzle to me.

.

Mike

You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith

I was referring to the multitude of earlier confused posters, who seem to think pagan is one organized religion, rather than just a catch all for hordes of disparate religious beliefs. What possible guilt does a Wiccan, whose religion is less than 100 years, have for persecution of Christians, by Nero, 1800 years ago, who was a member of a totally different Roman polytheistic religion, based on an Etruscan religion that is over 3000 years old?

Keith

I have never met a mean or unfriendly Wiccan.

Keith

Ever married one? Marriage apparently changes people.

I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith

Knowing how things will turn out does not equal causing them. If I know my kid will steal the cookies if I leave the room it still doesn't make me liable for his actions. In your scenario, there would be no real choices, only the illusion of choice. What would be good about a God who forced everyone to follow his will?
I bet you believe that actions should have consequences, if not, then what is evil anyway? If there are no ultimate consequences, then how does any action matter? An action can't be evil if it's not worthy of punishment. We know that evil exists, so the next question is why a good God would allow it? You might as well have said that God is not good, because that's the only way your logic makes sense.

Kinda like a big kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass Keith.

You are nonsensically lumping all pagans together. People considered pagans made up and make up hundreds of thousands of religions, most of which are no longer in existence. I doubt there is a Christian on this forum or anywhere else who does not have more pagan ancestry than Christian ancestry, which is why Christianity is completely based on the earlier pagan religions.

Wicca is less than 100 years old. I seriously doubt any Wiccan ever persecuted a Christian.

Everybody who considers themselves an expert on religion should study other religions with an open mind.

Keith

I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...Don't want to bake a cake, can't have my Christmas decorations in some public place. Can't hang my 10 commands in city hall, don't like the people next doors life style..They comb their hair to the wrong side..think their Wiccans, maybe even lesbians heaven forbid???

Guess I've seen more Christian Hypocrites, Whine and Complain in my life time about other people than any other group I know...

You live in a predominantly Christian country... Simple statistics dictate that all those hypocrites, whiners, and complainers will be Christians.

If you lived in Israel then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would likely be Jewish.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be Muslim.

If you lived in Washington DC then the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be politicians/government employees...

Are you smellin' what I'm steppin' in here?

Mike

You live in a predominantly Christian country... Simple statistics dictate that all those hypocrites, whiners, and complainers will be Christians.

If you lived in Israel then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would likely be Jewish.

If you lived in Saudi Arabia then statistically the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be Muslim.

If you lived in Washington DC then the hypocrites, whiners, and complainers would be politicians/government employees...

Are you smellin' what I'm steppin' in here?

Mike

Don't most professed Christians follow that guy Paul that pretty much started his own church way back when?

They worship the same Hebrew God.

[quote=PAskinner][quote=KeithC]

I don't agree that anyone needs saved. A good, all powerful God, even if he gives you free will, knows how you will turn out. Since He created everything and knows how it will turn out, he is ultimately responsible. A good God would not create anything he would punish eternally, an evil God would. If God is good, all knowing and all powerful, I don't believe there is any eternal punishment.

Keith




I do believe that actions do and should have consequences. The incredibly huge difference is that unlike God, you don't know everything and did not make everything. You're responsibility level is infinitesimally less. Knowing and making everything makes God ultimately responsible for everything. He may give us free will, but he knows how everything will turn out. If God knows that you will make wrong decisions, knows that he will punish you eternally for making those decisions (over a relatively short period of time) and then creates you anyways, it seems very cruel to me.

Keith

Good point, Catch. He was actually Saul of Tarsus before he became Paul.

No where in the bible does it say Paul started a church. He was a soldier who prosecuted and killed followers of Jesus Christ until he went blind. According to Luke, Saul became Paul as a result of Christ's voice asking him why he was persecuting Christians? He became an evangelist as a result and regained his eyesight. His conversion was such a radical change and witness that it encouraged others to follow Paul.

There were differences even back then at the start of the movement. Paul wrote that there were divisions. Some felt it was of the utmost importance that followers be baptized. Some would only follow Paul, some would only follow Apollo, some Cephas. He writes, "Has Christ been divided up?" His point was all the nit picking was foolish because they were all on the same team.

Today, we have the same situation with many Christian churches. They have minor differences such as baptism, communion, etc. But, the basics are still there such as who Christ was being the biggest. Many of these non-Christian churches have written their own bible. Some deny that Jesus was the son of God. Some claim he was Michael the archangel. One even claims Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. There is nothing in the original teachings like that.

Luke was a traveling companion of Paul's. He is considered the writer of the book of Acts. He wrote that Saul was on his way to Damascus when a light from heaven shown suddenly on him. He was blinded and he heard a voice saying, "Saul, why do you persecute me?"
He asked, "Who are you, Lord?"
And the voice said, "I am Jesus whom you persecute."
When Saul rose from the ground, he could see nothing.
In Damascus, a man called Ananias was told by the Lord to go to the house of Judas and enquire about a man named Saul. But, Ananias was fearful of Saul because of his reputation of killing Christians. He was made not to fear and when he laid hands on Saul, a film fell away from his eyes and he could see again.

I don't think I could dig much deeper than that. If that's what you're referring to.

The people who refer to themselves as "Christian", who irritate lots of people, in my experience, are usually Baptist or Church of God members. No offense please, I am sure there are good people in those religions. Most of the people in those two religions, who I have met, remind me of vegans in that like vegans, the way you find out they are "Christian" is they tell you about it and that's most of what they want to talk about, when you first meet them. Frequently the Baptists and Church of God people I have known switch which church they go to and which minister they like and listen to a couple of times a year or more. They often get overly animated and crazy looking eyes when talking about their beliefs. Most of them made very serious mistakes in their lives with drugs, alcohol, sex or crime and will happily and excitedly tell you how they are now changed thanks to Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior. I think they use religion as a mental crutch to get them through their lives, to alleviate the guilt they feel for their previous poor choices. I guess if it helps them be better people, it's for the best.

Keith

Luke is considered the Author of Acts. However if you look to Acts, such as 9:17, 11:25, 11:30, 12:25 and so on, Paul was referred to as Saul by others and the Holy Spirit long after his conversion. Not to take away from the road to Damascus at all, but Saul became Paul ( theory)when Luke knew Paul was going out to preach to the Gentiles. Saul being Hebrew and Paul Greek. The passages though prove that the name change didn't come from Jesus.

The point is that Saul traveled under an alias and did in fact start the church by his travels and letters. Almost all of the new testament relates to Saul and his teachings. Every church/religion on earth has had a human leader. It is wonderful that men today can say for sure that this man was right in his leadership and that man was wrong in his leadership. It is the major Christian pastime to stone other Christians.
I propose that if any of these leaders was right and true in his interpretation of God/Christ there would be no divisions in the Church. All denominations have perverted the Word to suit their agenda to some extent.

The other major Christian pastime is to deny God to any one that does not speak English. I note above some of God's names in other languages yet it is apparent that He can only be named in English, eh?

Wow, never even thought about your last sentence, Paul not wanting to be Saul so people wouldn't freak out, great point! The Bible is a fascinating book, I enjoy it. And who said Christians and Pagans can't get along.

The new testament makes a guy wonder if a cult leader like say Jim Jones had instructed 4 or 5 of his closest disciples to write books about his life and times after he was gone, just what kind of stories they would have came up with and what sort of miracles they would have said he did.