Florida whitetails?

I was always under the impression that Florida deer where on the small side, but I saw several good sized deer several times while at Disney world. Saw some really big ones under the monorail tracks near Epcot.
Is the whole "southern deer are small" thing just a myth?

Well I am sure I will be corrected by a dozen guys but here is my opinion.
If a whitetail in the south has access to good forage, minerals and so forth he can obtain
real good antler growth. He will never obtain the body size and strength it takes to survive in the north.
Likewise a northern deer will not do well transplanted to the south as their body can not tolerate the heat.
Kind of like humans.LOL

Zim

I believe I read there are 5 different sub species of whitetail deer in the US. If I remember right Florida has some of the smallest.

I live about 20 minutes from the florida line. A few mature bucks might barely break 200lbs around here in south alabama. I havent seen many over 200 and most are in the 185ish lb range. Once you get into north florida they are about the same size but get progressively smaller the more south you get. When i hunted in kansas i killed mature bucks in the 250lb range and the does were massive compared to the deer i was used to hunting here. North alabama can produce some decent size deer but nothing like kansas body size. Where I am all the public land (national forest) is just lousy with florida hunters coming to kill bigger deer.

Down here when i kill deer i can load them into the back of my truck by myself. When i hunted in kansas i built a plywood ramp and a winch to load them alone.

First, what Zim says makes a whole lot of sense... I tend to agree.

But, I was a bit floored by the body size of some of the deer I saw. I remember.watching hunting shows back in the 80s where hosts would shoot these little tiny deer in the Everglades and then brag on it like it was a Saskatchewan Whopper lol. These deer would have been considered a fair size here and we have some big deer.

Take a look at just how much good topsoil, fertilizer, and irrigation is put down in urban areas. Southern deer on historic pine flatwoods and scrub were small. Those same deer at Epcot are eating high on the hog.

Matter of fact I've scooped up more massive wall hangers as road kill inside the perimeter of Atlanta than I've ever seen in the woods

Key deer are the true midgets.

In general Bergmann's Rule is that as you get closer to the equator animals become smaller. The Key Deer are the small deer that many think of when they think of deer in the south.

However, as you travel across the Coastal Plain in the lower productivity scrub of Blackjack Oak, Bluejack Oak, Water Oak, etc., nutrition really declines. Body and rack sizes decrease as a result. I remember seeing a facebook post a few years ago where the public was running a guy down that killed a ~75 inch 6 point from Ossabaw Island during a draw hunt. Everyone was saying he needed to let that deer walk because it was small and it would get bigger if he let it age. What these folks didn't realize was that 6 point was a trophy buck for that part of the state and it was aged at 6.5 years.

There was a neat study done over about a 20 year period at Mississippi State that questioned genetics of deer among 2 areas of Mississippi that produced different sized bucks. One area always produced smaller bucks than the other and was deemed to have "inferior genetics". The other was in the Delta where there were many larger bucks. After giving offspring of both of these areas the same diet for 2-3 generations, the "inferior genetics" deer got just as big as the ones from the Delta. This study really showed that the true benefits of better management of deer populations and their habitat likely won't be seen for a 10-15 year period once the population is balanced and habitat is allowed to recover. Fertilizers and such can really help that process as is seen in many farming areas.

Smaller deer in the Black Hills high numbers and poor food source in many places, it's nothing to see 500 deer on the way to my turkey spot is some areas when the ditches green up!

Just what I've seen in my lifetime but it's obvious deer are being better managed and are eating better across the south. Used to be big fours and sixes were something to be proud of and a buck seventy five was a heavy one.
I see 200 pounders killed every year and big eights and tens the norm.

Disney is a deer sanctuary

This is a good size central Florida deer that’s on my property

Maybe talking about the Key deer?

I was in the Panama City Wal-Mart a few years ago in the sporting goods dept. and noticed how small the deer mounts were....The bucks had volleyball width basket racks, and after seeing some live deer in the wild up near Bonifay, they definitely run pretty small, (at least in the panhandle) compared to the KY, MO, IL deer I've hunted.

I will go along with what people are saying, the deer are growing larger (at least rack size) around me. When i was a kid there were and still are tons of deer. But if you killed a buck that broke 100 inches gross, you killed a decent even trophy buck. Anything with more than 8 pts was considered rare. The state changed the bag limits to 2 a day a doe and a buck for several years. That went on all through my teenage years. Now that i moved back home 15 years later the bag limits have been cut back a bit on private property and back to normal for state land. I have been getting trail cam pics and seeing lots of actually BIG bucks being killed in this area. Some i wouldnt have dreamed could be from this part of the country. Heck ive got an 8pt behind my house that is bigger than any i EVER seen while hunting as a teenager, and he is only 4 years old.

Over population, which is what we had 20 years ago, can definately cause small bucks. Like previously stated it takes about 15 years before the results start to really show of herd management. I have definately seen the results of trying to manage deer herds for better results. I know of several really nice bucks within a few miles of me and had trail cam pics of them. 20 years ago that didnt happen, but you could see 15 deer in a herd walk out in front of you in certain areas.

15 years before you see results of managing deer? Really? How many deer have you ever heard of that lived to 15 years in the wild?

Dad lived in Charleston, SC always said the deer were smaller then the MI deer he grew up around.

Not necessarily a full 15 years before you see results of course, but it does take a while to start seeing FULL results. No deer dont live that long i know. I think it may take a generation or two of deer before you start getting bigger bodies and racks AFTER you make big changes to the herd. OF course some results happen fairly soon. But they started upping bag limits and trying to get the population under control and we werent seeing big bucks here. Now i left this area for about a decade, but when i got back and starting hunting here there were quite alot more mature bucks that definately were at least growing up with bigger racks than anything i saw in the early 2000s. But lots of things have changed since back then. Not as many people hunting for food and instead hunting for trophies and that is a different subject entirely. But I dont see as many people shooting smaller bucks, they plant more nutritious food plots, and lots of things like that which has lead to bigger bucks IMO. People still dont shoot enough does IMO, lots of hunting clubs they dont shoot any and they probably should.

I hunt in NE North Carolina mostly for 50+ years. We do not often kill 200 lb deer. Go west 150 miles and they become more common. No hounds allowed there and a shorter season makes a big difference. For some reason, we have huge black bears in coastal warmer counties. A 700lb bear is taken almost every year. Our mountain counties have many bear but about half the size of coastal bears. All are black bear.

Diet, genetics, and age matter. Hardly any B&C bucks taken anywhere in N.C. Go figure. Too much pressure. Long season, and hound hunting seem to work against a whitetail growing old in eastern N.C.

None in the wild.

15 years could be 6 or more generations though. The study basically attributed that better nutrition over at least 2 generations may turn the growth gene on that would otherwise be turned off as better mass and antler sizes are probably not necessary if nutrition is not there. Generally turning poor or mediocre habitat into good habitat takes a few years. When only mama ate good, bucks showed better growth but when granny and mama both eat a better diet, the bucks from the "poor" genetic region ended up being just as big as those from the delta.

It was a cool long term study and has really reflected what I've seen in several places.

Southern Ga and most of Florida have a subspecies of whitetail deer named Seminole whitetails. Generally these deer are adapted to lower quality habitat such as pine flatwoods that have a lot of browse but none of it is very nutritious. A mature buck (3.5 plus) will weigh around 135 to 150 live weight. 1.5 year old bucks average about 100 pounds live. The nutrition level of the native vegetation is low because of the soil its growing on...mostly sandy soils that dont hold nutrients well. Seminole whitetails that have access to large agricultural areas or other sources of higher nutritional plants such as large amounts of fertilized browse will exhibit heavier weights and better antlers because of the better food sources, but for this to show up it takes a deer generation. Also, the females will be more productive and fawn survival will be better. In these south Ga/Florida agricultural areas there will be older bucks that reach 200 pounds live weight and very good antler growth. It's all based on the soils......good soils =good deer. Two counties north and west of where I live there is the occasional B&C buck and several that that too 200 live weight....but there are more ag fields there than forest. Here its nearly all pine plantations and cypress swamps....a few miles from state line.

The picture below is a 4.5 year old buck on my place a few days ago. I know he's 4.5 because I have pics of him since he was 1.5. He has a solid black tail so he's easy to identify in pictures. At first glance he could be mistaken for a 175 plus pound deer....but he is closer to 135 pounds. Our rut peak here is late October and by first of November he will weigh about 120 or less.

I've hunted deer in only 2 states...Georgia and north Missouri. Whew! Night and day difference. It takes some focus to realize what your looking at when your used to looking at a mature buck that weighs 135 and then seeing one that weighs 200 plus. Thank goodness for a good rangefinder or I would still be misjudging them midwest brutes. Took me some time to adjust to seeing big deer with what appeared to be average racks when they actually had large racks....but their body size made their racks seem smaller. Had this same problem when hunting the coastal islands on the Georgia coast. Average buck there weighs less than 100 pounds and that makes his rack look large....but it ain't so.

Same buck...he looks as big as a midwest mature buck but his frame isnt as large as it appears. Someone mentioned Bergman's rule in this thread. This holds true.....there are exceptions....but not many.

Btw...his inside spread is only about 14 inches. Another optical illusion. If this was a pic of an Iowa buck you could say he weighed about 200 and had at least an 18 or more inside spread...

there are deer in florida that weigh 200 lbs but they are few and far between , i lived there for twenty years and never killed one over a 130lbs but i saw other deer that where killed that made the 200lb mark but you could count the number on your hand of the deer who made it to that mark, the nice thing use to be there was no horn restrictions and you could kill two deer a day every day of the season as long as you didn't have more than four in possession ,

The rare exception big bodied deer in the deep South will be corrected by the Bergmanns Rule during extreme hot years.
Same for a scrawny, or late born yearling will suffer the wrath of Bergmanns rule in the far North during extreme cold winters.
That would explain why these exceptions are rare.