predator gun????

please help me decide what caliber for fox cats and yote w/ minimal damage. I am not set up for reloading so it will have to be factory rounds.
I do have a couple stripped lowers on order so there is that option too.

With not knowing if I will have the ability to run my line this year or not I might make a few stands in fairly open country.

.223 gets my vote

" overall", I think AntiGov is right.

223 should take care of it. Sure like mine.

.17 Rem.

https://www.ableammo.com/catalog/no...hollow-point-4200-fps-rdbx-p-130607.html

... When I'm ready for a new predator gun it'll be high on my list! I've done a lot of reading on it and like what I'm hearing.

.223 is boring...

Yep, 17 Rem. For those who say it's not enough gun for coyotes, I beg to differ.

This debate can and Will go on forever but overall, for someone who does not reload, the .223 is a good choice.

ok .223 with what twist rate? Also any preferences to certain ammo?

how far would you say the 17 Rem is effective to?

I love all my .223, but i really enjoy my 22-250. Great caliber. Have a brother with a sweet .204

I have just this week started playing around with a .17 wsm I purchased. What a fun little caliber. As a rimfire it’s a very affordable gun to plink with. Mighty quick little laser, out to 200 yards I would not hesitate to use it on coyotes as the energy it carries out there is very good. I wouldn’t push it much farther on something that large.
I plan to really put it thru it’s paces out west this winter, so we shall see.

Osky

1:9 and 1:8 do well with 55gr

the 1:12 can do 55gr but may prefer the 40 or 50gr better

the nice part is there is a lot of 223 ammo available for the non reloader

.223 for me to say and it's easy to find ammo about anyplace you go.

My limited experience with my 17 has left both me and the yote wondering if he had been hit .

On open ground we both eventually figured it out

In the trees only the yote knew

I appreciate that knowledge. I am primarily a badlands and open range shooter. I am planning on visiting a couple places east of Bend this winter and I will take heed of what you said not knowing what I am getting into. I will have my forever trusty .243 along and .220'swift if the .17 isn't worthy of the task.

Osky

Its fun to shoot Osky , so give it a try . You may see better results.

I shot one from the truck out about 200 or so . He went into a fast run and covered some ground

I thought i missed and got back in the truck and started driving off when he fell dead in his tracks ....lol

That's interesting Anti... Hmmm.
To the OP in the end as Bucks prints it will forever be debated with so many great options available. .17 up to and thru the .243 size. In the end it will come down to what rifle you can afford, what scope you can afford to put on that rifle, and what ammunition you can afford to play with to learn the gun and then use to hunt.

Good luck
Osky

224 Valkyrie gets my vote. Flat shooting and hard hitting. Barreled upper will fit right on your AR lower. Easy to reload if you go that route.

Which ammo is the most readily available of the options that have been hashed over?

.223 for easy to find ammo. I prefer my .22-250 though.

I've been curious about the valkyrie for awhile now. How big is the exit hole?
I've plinked with the wsm just worried about the exit on a gray or a bobcat.
Will the .22-250 be too much for fox?

This topic is interesting for sure. Keep them coming

I think most options above have good over the counter options for ammo except maybe the .220 swift, at least around here the swift seems limited. Is the Valkyrie listing a good selection over the counter bullet gun?

Adam I plan to use this new .17 for dispatch here and there on my cat line and for calling, if your still looking then I can give you a better report if the cats cooperate. That begins after thanksgiving. Actually weeks after starting this year.

Osky

Ive got a thompson center encore 204, no need for any other calibers around that size. And at 75 yards a 17HMR will make 12 gauge galvanized steel look like you was shooting a pop can, itll work too.

Yup!

Fox and Cats you mentioned are the reason I chose the .17 Rem. None of the .20 cal rounds from the factory are great choices for them that I'm aware of.

Ammo availability should not be a factor. You can order ammo on line 24 hours a day, just order a couple extra boxes so you won't run out.

From what I'v read or heard them 16"ers on a iowa class battlewagon makes a fine varmint gun, might be a bit big for cat or yote tho.
Dennis

IMO, 22-250 is definitely too much for fox, but might even be a little too strong for coyotes as well. I've handled some coyotes that were shot with 22-250s & 220 Swifts. The exit wounds made for a lot of sewing.

My swift is a great rifle for lots of things but not fur friendly except on rare occasions.

Pete

Don't believe it as much the caliber as the bullet construction and speed that does the damage. Have shot coyotes with a 270 and not more damage than done by a 22-250. Do believe most 270 loads are too much for most coyotes, but I was hunting big game at the time. A bullet that will enter the chest and disintegrate, doing major damage to the internals and not exiting is most preferable. Of course that entails a perfect shot and everything working properly. Best advice is to learn how to sew and try to minimize the damage, if possible. Gerry Blair was a big fan of the 10 gauge auto loader and could easily reach out to sixty yards. Is a lot easier to swing a scatter gun at close range then a rifle, but those that hang up at one or two hundred yards will need something to reach out and say "howdy". If I was calling mostly fox, I do believe a shotgun and a 17 cal will do the least damage.

And Gerry's rifle of choice seemed to be the 22-250 in most of his writings for everything he encountered. But not saying it is the most fur friendly round. I sure wouldnt want it as top pick for fox gun.

Since I've been in on OVER 400 coyote kills, and OVER 400 fox kills :D, I will say this.
It's hard to put the perfect Ballance together unless you reload.
If going after both species, I'd probably go with a 17 Rem shooting a stoutly built hollow points.
If after just fox, I'd tone it down Abit but still stick to .17 call.
Strictly coyotes, I love my 22-250,s.
I like a stout bullet with them too.
Often get an exit but usually small. Coyotes can take alot of abuse if placement is not great.

Prove it!

17hornet 25gr hollow points

Oh man

At last a 220 guy who is truthful ,The 22-250 is about the same .Kudos to you

As stated bullet selection make a huge difference on fur damage

ADC, the 17 rem sounds interesting but seem scarce to find online.

Bnb, I target cats, fox and yotes when I call, not just one specific animal.

Traper7, thanks that's what I was thinking especially since some people hunt antelope with that caliber.

I hate sewing so the less damage the better.

Adam, really, if you don't reload, stick to a .223.
A 55 grain softpoint will be your best bet. You will most likely get an exit on Fox n cats but it should be manageable.

Out here a lot of callers use the varmint tip bullets load them up and shoot the yotes right in the shoulder plate where they blow a hole that's pretty big. Then they expect you to skin/stretch/sew them up and give them the lions share of what you might get. I tell them when they buyers coming but they toss most of them.

Yep Jerry.
The only plastic tipped one I'd recommend in nosler ballistic tip.

I don't believe that! I'm going to have to know your age, weight and approximately the number of days a year you coyote hunt.

One day a year John but I really stack em up!

Those little kitt fox especially tear up easy and desert greys are not much bigger or tougher. you need two rifles. Id like to have a rabbit/elk rifle too but it aint gonna happen

[quote=adam m]ok .223 with what twist rate? Also any preferences to certain ammo?

1/9 will work up to 68/69 gr bullets.

.223 will b most economical too.

you guys saying 223 for fox have never seen NM fox. jack rabbits are bigger than they are

that trap is a #3 and that fox is an adult

grey fox are not hardly any bigger. probably some red fox in NM someplace but I never seen one

you need two rifles adam. or a shotgun. load a 12 gauge with #4 buckshot. the balls are not much bigger than 22. call them close and take whatever shows up.

Over 400, just under 400?
LIAR!

I can believe it. I called in my first Fox in 1974 and have been hook. I bought a Faulk pump Rabbit in distress call out of the back of FFG FOR 4.95. Im not saying it was easy, but it was easier back then than now. In 1997 I shot 187 Fox and 92 Coyotes. And shot 75 to 80 animals a yr for many yrs. I started with a 22-250 and shot many other rounds from 223 to 17 rem to 220 Swift and 243. Now days I shoot a 22-6MM AI or 6MM AI..

Find a rifle you shoot well and use it, Theres not many that wont make a mess on a Fox.

Good luck in your search

Lol Danny. Thanks I needed that laugh. My first fox was a red. I destroyed it fleshing it. Thanks for reminding me about the 12ga with buck shot. I really don't want to take 2 guns on a stand but if push comes to shove...

Thanks everyone. Looks like I got some more research to do before I pull the trigger. Keep them coming.

If I was to get set up reloading (which I've been wanting to do) than what caliber should I consider

adam when you find a red in NM is it like KS? In a town 99.9% of the time?

how far can you the shooter reasonably shoot or would shoot?

I would get a job first, so I could support my family, before I worried about a coyote rifle.

I put up all my fur so skinning is always in the equation. Don’t have many fox so yote and cat are my targets. Most of my shots are under 100 yards and I do reload. The best fur friendly load I’ve found that drops the critter on the spot is from a .223 with a 55 gr soft point. Minimum damage to cats, which is what I’m looking for, and never had a yote run off. Very little sewing either, which is a huge plus for me. I’ve tried V max, but they will require quite a bit of sewing if not shot in the right place.

?? Kinda rude I think?

Vmax and coyotes should never be used in the same sentence!

Sure its rude. Its also good advice.

bacatrapper, thanks for the concern, I appreciate it. I am not doing this F/T but as a "breather". Not being in the mountains/outdoors hunting, trapping getting firewood etc...all the time for the last 3 years has got me in real bad cabin fever. 100% city life is not for me. A few weeks back was the first time in nearly 2 years I've been in the mountains and that was for a funeral. I need to get out in the mountains and since I can't do much setting up a stand and calling doing what comes naturally to me will help me and my kids. Even my kids hate not being in the outdoors all the time. Besides guns are always a good investment and great heirlooms. When the time comes my kids will have a couple guns that their dad built and others of course. Add that to the fact the way the 2nd is being treated, guns especially AR's are a great investment right now.

Danny, I have got them far away from the city, and have seen a couple in the city too.

GCP, only time will tell with how comfortable I am shooting with whatever caliber I go with.

Get a 223 and do not be concerned of barrel twist, as you are not going to have a long range shooter for what the 223 brings to your needs. Tailor your hunting with FMJ's for the cats and whatever you prefer from soft points to frags for yotes. It is not that big of deal to have a cat load in for fur, have a yote come in and jack out a round before they could hear that sound. Same bullet weights, unless you discover a heavier load mix with the FMJ's which you can figure out how to elevate for shots.
What you do need is a good variable for precision shot placement to make up for the handicaps the 223 brings in average powder and light bullets. I keep mine cranked to the highest setting. You are still looking at an under 400 yard rifle, more in the 200 yard range of consistent shooting for most rifle people. Get a bolt action until Remington wises up and starts producing an affordable run of 7600's.
Bipod, pad to sit on and I still like mixing it up with an electronic out front to divert attention and whatever mouth call is my target.
Hope that helps, but forget the high octane 22 250, 220 Swift etc, and the light ones, as coyote and cat are too expensive now to blow huge holes in.

Star flakes, thanks. I gotta get clarification if we can lawfully use FMJ on furbearers in NM. Our proclamation does or does not say if FMJ is allowed. I know FMJ's are illegal for big game. It does say air compressed rifles larger than .22 are legal (think that is a brand new rule).

According to the 2017-18 NM fur harvesters report there were 140 red fox taken state wide. You must be in a little pocket of them Adam so few are taken every year. Appears that 2/3 of them came from the far N.W. corner of the state.

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/download/hunting/harvest/2017_2018-Furbearer-Harvest-Report.pdf

I certainly do catch more grey than reds, but I do have a couple spots with reds

Adam what Danny and others have said is strait up , no one gun is going to cover it . I carried a shotgun and a rifle for several years and it sucks ! I started looking for an over/ under in .222/12 ga. because I was already loading for the .222 . I settled on a .223/ 12 ga. And really like the setup . It’s not perfect but does the job at least 90% of the time .

using factory Winchester ammo for the numbers

55gr 223 varmint load with a 200 yard zero the bullet is 1.4 high at 100 , 0 at 200 and 6.8 low at 300

55gr 22-250 varmint load with a 200 yard zero the bullet is 0.9 high at 100 0 at 200 and 5.2 low at 300

gravity effects every bullet , generally you see the effects really start showing about 300 yards

you can push a bullet faster and get a little more range out of it

in this case the 22-250 box velocity is 3680fps and the 223 is 3240 same projectile.

you gain 1.6 inches at 300 yards

but it costs you more for each round and double or more in barrel life for each round for 1.6 inches at 300 yards

if you only plan to hunt and 20 rounds was a years hunting and you really were interested in pushing distance then 22-250 makes sense if it means the difference between making a shot or not

but if you can't shoot well past 200 yards , then you need more practice, it is easy to shoot a lot of rounds in practice and 223 will get you affordable practice ammo as well as longer barrel life while still getting you game once your practiced up.

thanks everyone I appreciate it. I am looking up uppers as I get time.

GCP yup It has been a while (at least 3 yrs) since I have shot over 100 yds but shouldn't be too bad. Heck I am lucky to get pistol range time. Last range time was for ccw renewal I was shooting tight at 30 yds in the morning, by the afternoon it looked like Ray Charles was shooting because of my pain and health. I still shot 100% but far from tight.

All around use,243,with good stout 80 gr.bullet

:D, oh my!!
Fox and bobcats?

They are dead ain't they. I was going to say .243 with 55 grain bullets lol.

Skin them at the pull off the trigger.

Fur friendly for coyotes, AND fox, AND bobcats???

That depends on your definition of “fur friendly” (it IS subjective).

You’re looking for a unicorn IMO.

Centerfire .22s excel in the coyote world.

Centerfire .17s in the fox world.

Choose based on what you have the most of.

Following this thread as well. Love all the great advice from experienced folks.

Would a 204 be a decent compromise or not good for coyotes or fox?

No good for either with factory loads in my experience. If you reload you can get better results I'm told. I sold mine. It was fast and accurate almost no recoil so you could see the hits through your scope but the ammo splashed on impact and left gaping holes in the hide.

I've never myself Hunterd with a .204 but know several that do.
It's a very good round. Trouble is, seems most manufacturers are catering to the varmint crowd.
For pure killing/ saving fur, the 35 grain Berger bullet seems supreme.
But I'm not sure if anyone makes a factory load for it?

I've never myself Hunterd with a .204 but know several that do.
It's a very good round. Trouble is, seems most manufacturers are catering to the varmint crowd.
For pure killing/ saving fur, the 35 grain Berger bullet seems supreme.
But I'm not sure if anyone makes a factory load for it?

Whatever caliber you decide on, if you want true versatility, my advice would be to start rolling your own. You are not going to save any money as some folks are going to tell you. But you can tailor your ammo to what you want it todo. You can push a 223.. 55 grain pretty close to the velocities one gets out of a factory 22-250 ... you can load a 40 grain down to be more fox friendly. The options are if not limitless pretty open to say the least.

I guess this can be justification for getting all set up and learning to reload.

I have most predator calibers that are popular, shot the 22-250 for many years and it worked fine once I went back to solids, all them hollow points and varmint crap just makes sewing a nightmare.

I won a raffle for a 204 and it's the only one I shoot now for anything, and I don't worry about exits, and shoot solids, going to have my boy make me up a AR with this caliber for quicker shooting.

I will load down for cats and smaller critters, but I will probably never shoot the higher calibers or odd balls any more, until the grandkids are old enough to carry them. This caliber is so nice to shoot, stays on sight with scope, and the recoil is almost non existent, never had a dog run away, or an exit I felt was a problem for my work needs !

What ever you decide on, your probably going to want to reload eventually if you want total control on expansion, it's the only way to really dial it in !!

Thanks guys. Good luck Adam m

Thanks everyone. Lots of valuable info to consider

Here is a thought to consider if you roll your own. You can use a cast bullet from say " Berrys plated bullets " in the 55 grain range, put a modest amount of " trail boss " powder or similar behind it and with a 20 inch barrel you now have a 223 squirrel gun at 22 WMR levels. Set it up a few notches and with the same rifle you can push a Speer 70 grain semi Spitzer at north of 3300 ft.sec and have a legitimate deer rifle. So the people say " what caliber ? is best for X<Y>Z I tend to snigger a bit
The difference in two at distance between the 223 and 22 swift, 22-250 etc. is not worth talking about unless you insist on head shots on squirrels at 300 + yards ..... A song dog, cat or fox is not going to be able to tell the difference for sure.

I believe you ,10 years ago 4 of us took 225 coyotes by gun and it has dwindled 160, 100 , 65 ,now its 25-30 a year .Oh got proof to trailers full of coyotes lots of 8- 10 days and pictures