Shooting Does

I normally don't shoot does until later in the season. But the last few evenings. I've had a nice fatty showing up along with 4 others. The only reason I havn't shot her is. She has a yearling, I try not to shoot does with yearlings, but the yearling was eating in the food plot like hoover on steroids. Plus I need the meat.

So, do you think the yearling would hang with the others until time for it to go on it's on?

I'd wait for a dry one but I don't need the meat if you do then do what's legal go for it.

Her fawn will be JUST fine

Yes , it will stay with the others, go ahead and pop her.
Won’t hurt a thing , the yearling is eating, it will be fine.

It will be fine if you harvest her, but I’ve got a soft spot and always try and shoot a dry doe.

Take the yearling or two

Better eating

I did this for a few years on my friends farm
Early October to get my meat
Never hurt the deer population around the farm

It depends on how many does you have in the doe family group, If there are a surplus in the group , I might or might not take one. I would never take the old grandma doe, if you do the pattern that the family follow ,will change. Better to let her die a natural death. Also if you keep a good population of does, there will always be bucks around, checking them out. Personally I have not taken a doe , in at least 20 years, for that reason. My choice is a spike buck or a fawn, I am more a meat hunter, but have shot my share of respectable bucks as well. old243

I always try to shoot dry does. Even if the dawn is eating vegetation it’s chances of survival go down if she dies, she still protects it from predators and teaches it survival techniques

Go for it!

I faced this dilemma once. I solved it by shooting both.
(It was legal to do so and both were eaten)

Won't hurt a thing. I just shot one that had still had a full bag but the fawns are plenty d enough now to make it just fine. Years ago growing up we were always told not to shoot does but after years of seeing what happens when you have overpopulation or buck to doe ratio way out of whack I realized that I need to take out more does than bucks every year. Also a good time to take a kid and let them pop one

If the fawn has lost it's spots it doesn't need momma any more.

As others have said, the yearling will be just fine without mama.

My thinking is not the fawn it's the chance that doe will fawn again where the dry doe might be done fawning, this time of the year does are kicking the ones away that try to nurse.

A dry doe eats as much as another doe that will produce a fawn next year so the dry doe to me so more expendable for all concerned.

Yes! Just like raising cattle.

Heard of a old cow man that culled every cow that didn’t have a calf at gathering.

What if the calf was struck by lightning? “She should have moved him”

What if a lion got it? She should have protected him”

What if it got sick and died? “Bad genetics and immune systems”

Does actually have twins until well into their teens. The old dry doe is a myth. On average almost all white tail does die well before they are unable to have fawns. They die more from natural causes and predation than from hunters.

"Does actually have twins until well into their teens. The old dry doe is a myth. On average almost all white tail does die well before they are unable to have fawns. They die more from natural causes and predation than from hunters."

I MUST ADMIT WHAT turkn8rtrapper SAID IS WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE WOODS OVER THE PAST 60 YEARS THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHITETAILS HERE HAVE 2 FAWNS BORN AND THE BIGGEST PERCENTAGE OF THOSE FAWNS ARE KILLED BY PREDATORS BEFORE THEY ARE 5 MONTHS OLD. COYOTES ARE THE PRIMARY WHITETAIL PREDATOR AND KILL THE MOST DEER BECAUSE OF THEIR NUMBERS BUT ONE COUGAR WILL KILL AN AVERAGE OF 50 DEER A YEAR.
THAT IS THE REASON I TRAP AND HUNT WITH HOUNDS. IT IS TO TRY TO BALANCE RETURN THE PREDATOR - PREY RATIO! IF WE AS HUMANS WANT TO HUNT DEER WE NEED TO REMOVE ENOUGH PREDATORS SO THE PREY BASE IS NOT DECREASED.
IT IS CALLED TAKING CARE OF THE HERD AND THAT IS WHAT A RANCHER DOES, WELL THE ONES THAT STAY IN BUSINESS DO ANYWAY. IT WOULD BE NICE IF SOME OF THE WESTERN BIG GAME MANAGERS WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT AND ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, ESPECIALLY, WITH OUR MULE DEER . HERDS.

^^yeah don’t understand the stigma with not shooting does. I took a doe 3 years ago, last day of the PA rifle season, and her fawn had a white cow lick between her front shoulder blades. That doe I’ve called white spot has had twins the last two years and her fawns this year dwarf most of the other fawns I’ve seen, and that puts her at 3.5 yrs old. I won’t shoot her, I’d like to see how long she makes it. A lot of my neighbors won’t shoot a doe that has YOY, and I’ve asked, so when you shoot a doe that doesn’t have a fawn or fawns with, how do you know that the fawn just isn’t with her? Good thread.

I heard some trapper from Alabama say that coons like to eat small fawns.

Fawns can be weened at 8 weeks. The fawn will be fine. Take your does early.

Does taste like bucks, they do damage to cars like bucks, they eat field crops like bucks. You just dont get a set of headgear souvenirs after you shoot a doe.
Always makes me smile when I see someone shoot does, I want to go high five them.
Jim

X2 here

then you would really get along with me.
i shoot mostly does and younger deer, it aint about horns for me.
or deer farming for that matter

The dry for is a myth. Some don't get bread once and a while, but doesn't mean they won't the next year. It's been proven in studies.......O.P. shoot the doe if you want. The offspring hanging around will survive and be fine.

Bang!!!

I disagree. That's your opinion, and nothing is wrong with it, but do you have facts that's back it up?

Had a 3 button bucks go under my stand years back with a doe in tow a guy would be a idiot to shoot that buck factory! LOL

Interesting topic.
I for one have never harvested a doe in my life time. For no other reason then I don't need the meat, I get all the wild meat a man could eat in a year. I only take a mature buck or I don't take a deer at all and that will be with a bow.

I'm a meat hunter. I try not to take a doe with 1 in tow. That said, I have taken both if it's not a fawn. I will single out a larger doe in a group and drop her. I've taken more doe then bucks. Meat is meat. Not going to pass up a buck with nice head gear but not looking for it either. I need 2 deer in my freezer to get through the year.

Rusty, Sorry don't have facts written by someone. . This is my personal experience. I have lived at my farm since 1975. Have hunted deer every year. Most years I harvest a deer for the freezer. As stated before a spike buck is my , first choice. I have also taken several fawns, but no does. I guess my cattle farmer mentality, has something to do with it. Farmers don't usually kill a heifer for freezer beef, unless there is something wrong with her. Bad temperament or a non breeder. Usually kill a steer. and keep the heifer , for replacement. Anyone with a cow herd will know , that the old , boss cow , leads the herd. and its habits. As I said no written facts, just personal experience, each will have to draw their own, conclusion. Good thread old243

I would shoot the yearling, it won't produce you got at least another year. Tender and tasty too. That is if I were meat hunting

I can relate to the cattle operation mentality and boss cow habits. Those are a second reason for me not to take a doe also but conservation and practice is everyone's own choice. Old does have saved many of bull elk, and mule deer bucks from getting killed. It can be almost be impossible to kill a good bull or buck if that old doe is with them.

Lot's of things need to be considered like the population you have to work with, we have been dealing with blue tongue here and our numbers have been down for several years now so closer management is more of a issue.

^ very true law.

X2 what trapdog said , if you have the numbers .

Whitetail are not heard animals like cows or elk though.

I will add. We all do things a little different and hunt different areas with different animal densities and different terrain and thats great. This is a discussion and not an argument. I'm not fighting with people that have the same outdoor interests. We have enough issues with the antis.

^ > I think key word is mentality that should clear it up for you.

I'd eat the fawn. The Doe will draw Bucks later on and is a "proven performer". JMO

I am fortunate enough to hunt on a large hunting lease. Not a high price lease and we go by whatever the book says. No big buck rules or any of that. I have one area I primarily hunt and the first deer I normally take is the alpha doe as soon as I can identify her. Some years there isn't one so they get a pass. We are allowed 5 does and 3 bucks. I very seldom take more than one doe because I don't need the meat. My experience after 50 plus years of chasing them has been that once that alpha is gone the deer really start showing up during shooting hours.

We hunt bucks first weekend then after that success is measured in pounds of meat i try to avoid taking small bucks .We have so many does on our property i dont think you could make much difference. its not uncommon to see thirty or more in an eavening drive through our property if you see that many how many do you not see.

In a couple weeks the does will be chasing the button bucks out and they will be fending for themselves. The babies will be fine if you shoot momma now.

I always find these conversations about shooting does interesting The opinions and experiences very so widespread

To me it’s a population issue, I’ve been hunting the same area for 30 years. Prior to 2012 EHD outbreak here we were taking in excess of 10-15 does a year in a 300 acre area and the deer just kept coming

After EHD for a couple of years does were not shot. Now we are taking does again and the numbers are strong

What I noticed was fewer does made the bucks move more looking for receptive does. When we were covered up in does the big boys I believe were doing very little perusing as it wasn’t necessary

JMO

So far in six days of hunting this season I’ve seen 10-15 does/fawns a night and 1-2 bucks

Just walked to stand and busted two fawns out of field. So either someone shot momma, she got hit by car or she’s one that is getting bred real early and is with a buck

I have seen this almost every time I go to the ranch. I was checking on some stands and blinds in the area a few days ago and these two fawns come running at me and came with in 30 yards. LOL No Mom. Then I was walking back to another spot and this lone fawn came from a field right at me but had a twin and was at 15 yards. No Mom.
I took these pictures with my phone just stood there and they walked to me.

Not sure if she left them bedded and they are starting to wonder around or what is the deal. Interesting observation.

Well, I think I will hold off and see what else shows up. They are undisturbed at this point and will return. I held off last year and I believe these are some of them. They drew in 2 six points and a big 7 last year. But, you never know when the trigger finger gets itchy. Sarge

The food plot will continue to draw fat mamma, which will in turn continue to draw it big daddy when the rut comes in. Killing a yearling or two will not have any effect on big daddy whatsoever.

[quote=gryhkl]In a couple weeks the does will be chasing the button bucks out and they will be fending for themselves

/quote]

??? Really?

Pics??

Yearling or fawn? Yearlings have been feeding on their own since they were weaned last year as a fawn. Right now down here most all fawns are weaned already. Just about every doe down here has fawns and or yearlings with her. But all are legal game.
Guess it all depends on your population of deer. Down here I could shoot 5 tomorrow and it wouldn’t make a difference in the rut at all. I could shoot another 5 towards the end of season and it wouldn’t make a difference in the population at all. We actually need to take about 30-40 this year. The property my son hunts takes anywhere from 50-60 a year...every year.

This years fawn are often seen without mom.
The " dry doe" thing is crazy . Unless you KNOW she is barren, don't asume

These pictures are all this years fawns. They are just little runts and they still had spots that were just about gone but still could make them out.

Yep.

Down here we don’t shoot the “alpha” doe. She’s the one that leads the herd and the main reason the bucks come calling. I got an old Grey face granny that doesn’t have any fawns, but she has a following. Even young bucks give her the right of way. We target yearlings to 2 year old does.

Oh boy

The old saying in MI was, "everyone's a deer biologist 2 weeks a year", I never forgot that. LOL

The reason for not shooting mature does is they will produce the best genetics and fawns next year. I am not focusing on your question, but the uninformed in my area, who always are shooting the "big doe" and then wondering where the "nice bucks" are. This years fawn will produce in most instances a single fawn next year of low quality. Going back to the Bible, it is why God wanted first born sacrifices as anyone with livestock knows first born are smaller animals, due to lack of milk production etc...

The issue is not the fawns making it. The issue is producing a healthier maternal foundation stock. The "fatty doe" in most instances, unless she is a horrid mother or her fawn is killed by something, is going to breed, and most likely produce two large and healthy fawns next year. I know you said you needed meat, but I would opt for shooting a fawn this season and if the does you are seeing are not going to be shot by other "big doe" hunters, you are going to be better served in a few years as these females produce better genetics in deer to hunt.

I refuse to shoot mature does, and make a point of it to educate other hunters.

Yeesh, there is so much misinformation in this post I don't know where to start. First of all, you cannot tell genetics by looking at a doe, period. Secondly, a yearling will normally produce a single fawn, then after that, assuming there is good nutrition available, they will normally produce two fawns. Sometimes three, if there is abundant quality food and water. You also cannot tell the maternal characteristics of a doe by looking at her. By opting to shoot the fawn, you may be shooting the best genetics; there is absolutely no way to know genetics by looking at a deer. You also say that some does produce better genetics, but you don't specify what those genetics are: Body size?, Good maternal characteristics? Predator avoidance? Antler size? None of this makes any sense. Maybe you can clarify.

Ain't that the truth! Buddy and me are going to my cabin next week to see if we can get a couple doe's. I'm not going to ask how old they are

I shoot the first big doe that gives be a chance , an then I shoot the next one ,I hunt for meat !!!! ,an we have way to many doe's

Bang!

Right on Bernie B.

X 2

And then I shoot the third doe that gives me a chance.

if i had a 4th,it'd be next.

Three is about what we eat a year but we could easily do four!

And if a legal bucks happens by...

I shoot fawns of the year as they are easier for me to handle, lift, get through the breastbone and just flat out tender. I normally leave does until after rut in hopes of them bringing around a buck. But, I have also shot my share of does after rut. Every year after gun season, the does really start popping up more and I always think I should have shot more. This has been the last 3-4 years. 30 years ago, I remember still having a single chance in gun season of seeing a deer I could shoot at. Times have changed for the better in the overall Missouri deer herd. All of us are truly blessed if we have the ability to decide what deer to harvest these days.

spots come of with the hide i tell ya,i like more meat per tag though.

Right on, BernieB. A doe passes on the same genetics to her first fawn as she does her last fawn. Her genetic makeup doesn't change with age. And she's only half the equation. She could be bred by a buck with good genetics one year and a buck with inferior genetics the next. It's not just the big mature bucks that do the breeding. But just like does, you can't tell all the genetics just looking at a buck, especially a young buck that might breed a doe while the mature buck is off fighting another buck.

I've also heard that does will push button bucks away before the breeding season to prevent inbreeding, but they're more willing to allow dpe fawns to stick around. So if you shoot a doe with a button buck, that buck is likely to stick around rather than be forced out.

If you're after meat, it makes no sense to shoot a fawn because there's very little meat to be had. Plus there's always a chance that fawn could turn out to be a button buck.

In close to 50 years hunting I have only took 3 whitetail deer. One in early 70's, one in mid 80's, and one 2013 all bucks and never shot a doe deer in my life. I have shot elk (cows) but not a deer doe.

Everyone can hunt how they want as long as it is legal but we just don't shoot anything to get deer meat. For me and many others conservation, sustainability, and future of herds need to be managed by all of us. It is a personal decision/choice how we hunt and what we take from the land that will result in what we have in the future.

I have no problem with what everyone wants to shoot (fawns, doe, small bucks, mature bucks) but what you hunt and do today, will dictate to what the future will be in your herds.

Snowy, you obviously don’t understand the different hunting conditions around the nation. Here in my area of Pennsylvania we are absolutely polluted with deer, the vast majority of them are does. The game commission realizes this and issues almost unlimited tags to kill them. Despite having done that for the last 10 to 15 years the population is stable, overpopulated.

So I am actually performing an important conservation measure by killing as many does that I do each year.

We try to achieve a balanced buck to doe ratio of 3:1- right wrong or indifferent, this rule of thumb has served us well. Fawn production is one of the key indicators we look for, if there is a hard winter- a doe will ingest one or both fawns in order to survive- that might be a year we choose not to harvest a doe. In my opinion, if you don't harvest does- the breeding bucks have a lot of work once the estrus cycle starts, the result is a substantial stress and loss of body mass entering the toughest part of the year if winter comes early. Our efforts are far from scientific but if you spend enough time in the tree you can get a feel for the ratio. With a 3:1 ratio our rut time period is somewhat lethargic, bucks lockdown with a hot doe, breed and move onto the next. I've hunted areas where the ratio was 20:1 and you have bucks running down the trail with their tongue hanging out a mile long. A lot of good posts- never let the facts ruin a good story.

I absolutely know what you are talking about and all areas of this country is different. I don't get what you mean I don't obviously don't understand I can't see anything in any of my posts that I have said anything to what you are referring too, but what ever. Everyone has to manage what they kill I could care less what you do in your area what populations you have, you know, if legal kill what you want too, and conservation you are doing your part with the help from you DNR (limits etc.). Happy hunting.

counted 103 2 nights ago on a 4 mile ride.

^ wow! We have NO numbers like that at all.

Thanks

30 yrs ago,25 guys would be hunting that valley,now i doubt 5 hunt it.

Yeah, and our numbers here in the SRA are easily double that.

yepper

Brown and down.

I shoot does (part of the leases agreement). BUT NEVER shoot them early. Walking buck bait. If you have does the bucks will come. !!!!!!!! Last weekend of rifle season and Dec muzzleloader is doe days for me.
Plus less ticks and to dang hot to work up a deer early ...........

disclaimer,i have killed no where near 400 deer.

Pic's to prove that?

You've wasted a bucks time and resources by doing that. You're killing a doe thats been bred, removing not 1, but 3 from the herd. Kill them early, increases buck movement and let the does walk after the rut. 100% effort is returned into the cycle.

Good post Rye.

LOL OK it has been 90 plus degrees here for over a month now. Rain today and cool temps for one day. Back in 80's By Thursday. YOU kill does in that weather and I"LL kill them when I want to . I bet 90% percent of our does are not breed by second weekend in November. As for your STUPID remark for saying we are removing 3 from the herd that's a given if the doe dies in august. Plus how do YOU know she has been breed by nov 1st. You don't same way I don't know she has. BUT one thing I can tell you from experience if you are targeting a mature buck and you start BLASTING does and gutting and removing them from an area HE will know you are there. The chances of you killing him go way down every time you are in there. So I'M NOT going to booger up my stand by shooting does until I have a chance to kill him....

You say let them walk after the rut . We have had years that the "rut was hot and heavy the second muzzleloader season in mid December. Always still rutting action going on then.
Now don't someone pullout a moon phase graph and say " the rut will take place on November the 3 at 4.06 pm ..... thhhhhhuuuuuuh

So rye let me ask you . If someone shoots a fawn wouldn't that be a waste of the DOES time and resources? I can assure you she has more time in raising that fawn than the buck spent breeding her .Plus the vast majority say that you need to shot does to "take them out of the herd". The comment that you are killing 3 is so wrong. If the numbers are low then don't shoot any. But to claim it is better to do it early doesn't always apply.
As I said EVERY mature buck I have killed come from a farm that the first shot fired was at him. Hunt a farm with 2 guys that wanted to shoot anything legal. Does , fawns and each killed 6 points. NO big deer were killed even tho had 3 160 plus class deer on the farm. Next year they didn't go back until I killed the 191 that had been there for last 4 years......


Oh Yes you guys with all the wisdom on when to kill them. Not legal to kill them until December in some parts of the state. EXCEPT FOR BOW !!! But not everyone bow hunts..... Plus dang we have been in a drought that broke all records for temps and no rainfall. Who wants to field dress a deer in those conditions when if you wait a month it's cold weather.....

Are you not able to buy a bow tag?

I just stuck this big doe in Illinois and it was miserable hot, but I needed some meat

Good job RM! She will taste great I am sure.

Fire away, wont be long till the rut and the bucks will run the bobbin heads off anyways, they survive

This cracks me up..I’ve been bowhunting since 1982 and have taken a few does in my life and
there is no shortage of deer around here....

two down , one more an I'm ready for trapping season

Early season here is WI is a great time to get on bucks. Still in summer patterns and easy to find. No need to wait for the rut.

I would prefer to shoot does before breeding and plus save deer food resources if you’re going to kill them anyway seems like ga better time for management and to give the remaining deer a better chance for winter survival. Just my opinion

Yes some of these comments may be true if you like to bow hunt in hot temps. fighting mosquitoes, watching for ticks. Yes I could buy a bow tag as it comes with the state tag ,(tags don't specify method , dates and county zones do). I used to be a bow hunting nut. season opened 1st day of October . THEN the FWD decided to open revenue for non residents that wanted to shoot a velvet buck. So it comes in first weekend in Sept now. The first year I hunted early. Killed a dandy 8 pt that had lost it velvet . IT was 87 degress. Killed it at 7 pm that evening. I have gutted ,hunted, skinned, slaughtered about any animal that can be eaten in this state. Never once got sick to my stomach queezy or anything. Still don't to this day . BUT gutting a deer that was bloated 5 minutes after It was shot. Fighting flies and sweating my butt off wasn't my ideal of a good time. THEN did I mention that I had to be at work at 5 am but with a dead deer being hung up at 830 pm and 87 degrees meant butchering it and processing it. That officially ended my HOT weather deer hunting.

But you last few guys didn't even acknowledge my MAIN reason for not popping does before gun season. Targeting a MATURE BUCK..

And gryhky EVERYONE DOESN"T BOW HUNT

Private land gun doe hunt this weekend. Slick heads look out, meat season for me. Hope I see a momma and her fawn. Fawn for my freezer, momma for my church's food pantry.

Jbyrd I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I shot my doe this past Thursday in 92 degree heat and had her meat on ice within a hour . I definitely don't enjoy hunting in those temps but we always go to our Illinois farm for opening week and it was miserable this year but I was there so I was going to be in the stand. We always try to harvest 2 does to every buck if not more and we do it all thru season. And we only harvest mature bucks as well. Seems to me the less does the more the big boys have to be on their feet and compete to get one. We have harvested does out of a stand and then take a mature buck the very next day out of the same stand. I hunted Lewis county Kentucky for years and we had 10,000 acres of timber with very low deer population so we never shot does on that lease except for the kids

Holy crap. It's legal and you have a doe tag, kill her if you want to!.
Easy peazy.
I've been through every scenario when it come to this topic and bottom line is, it makes no matter!.
The only time I don't like shooting does is right at go time. early- mid November for no other reason than I don't want to disturb the woods.

Here, in the southeast, deer numbers are generally high. On the large recreational farms, high fenced and otherwise, the harvest of bucks is very limited and likewise the harvest of does can even be lower. Some of the properties where hunting clubs exist, have some doe harvesting regulations or stipulations. Many that are hunted by family and friends, the buck to doe ratio gets really skewed. Quality deer management recommendations are 1:1, trophy hunters sometimes manage at a 3 bucks per doe. Many landowners want to see big numbers of deer unless they have an understanding of QDM. I have been taking a group of around 10-12 trusted friends on some of these large (1,000 - 3,000+ acre) farms and helping landowners, that understand QDM and have an interest in growing bigger bucks, to thin their deer by taking large numbers of does. One high fence farm that we have hunted for several years, still produced 34 does for our group one weekend last year and the farm manager has already contacted me about coming back this year. I know that things are different up north and out west but here the best time to kill does is anytime you get a chance. In Tennessee the daily limit for antlerless deer is 3 per day from the beginning of bow season till the end of gun season. Some of the other southern states may even be more liberal. Working around other guests hunting or whatever puts most of our doe hunts around the last month of season. If there was a significant doe harvest during bow season, the bucks would have to move more to find the does that are still available.

I know that. But it seemed he was complaining that those who do bow hunt get an early doe season. If that's the case, and somebody wants to hunt early doe, buy a tag and hunt with a bow.

There’s a lot of misinformation on this thread. The best time to shoot a doe is when she stands still and presents a good shot opportunity.

After 3 pages got a little side tracked.

Shoot her. Yearling will hang with the others.

haven't been back until now, so I'll respond to what I can decipher in your post.
If someone shoots a fawn wouldn't that be a waste of the DOES time and resources? I can assure you she has more time in raising that fawn than the buck spent breeding her
A buck only gets so many days to breed does in a given year. It takes on average 36-48 hours to complete the process. He runs hard, exhausts himself and goes without food and sleep in order to complete his mission. He's a warrior. He chases and breeds a doe for two days, two weeks later you shoot her, she had twins. You've taken out 3 does. He wasted his energy to breed. But you have effectively reduced your herd if thats your goal.
Shooting one fawn - which is in poor taste anyway - isn't the issue. She most likely had twins, so the effort was already expelled. Does don't die from breeding, bucks do.

Best answer yet, it's just that simple.

There are more reasons to kill does then not to. Most of this thread is pure crap.

Amen to that.

Maybe this is a regoinal thing, but ive always referred to yearlings as 18 month old deer and fawns as 6 months old.

You sir are using correct terminology.

I prefer to nail her when she is in mid stomp mode, right before she makes that blowing whistle sound.

The best shot is when she’s standing on the road(my private road) around the field. Don’t even have to unload the four wheeler.