Iraq Veterans...Kurds

Don't trust politicians or news media much anymore so I'm going to ask the folks, Iraq vets, who may have had dealings with them. Are the Kurds truly friends to the U.S. and should they be defended by Americans militarily? Just wondering.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming you are an Iraq veteran since you answered. Did you work with them in Iraq?

Not an Iraq vet so I may not qualify to reply. I will say the history I have read shows that the Kurds helped murder Christians wholesale during the Armenian genocide.

I know so little about the Kurds. Are they of Islamic faith?
Donnersurvivor do you remember the reason for the murder of Christians? Did it have to do with their faith are was it more for conquest?
Why I'm asking Iraq vets is I figure some have come into contact with the Kurds and would have first hand knowledge.

I believe they were promised their farms or paid to kill them by the Turks. Most Kurds are Muslims.

I am an Iraq vet. All of 05 Infantry. Humvee gunner. Got to deal with them all the time. I have absolutely no use for them. They are the Cambodians and Laosians of Iraq.

Let us not forget Usama Bin Laden was our allie in Afghanistan during the Russian invasion as well. He was Mujahideen back then.

No one in that region of the world is truly a friend to the US. Their leaders might play footsie with the US for their own gain. Not all of the people are bad guys, lots of them want to just be left alone. But there is plenty that would cut your throat in a second just because. I dont like our troops being over there in any of those countries but im afraid if we totally pull out of the region one group or another will gain enough power to be a serious problem for anyone that isnt in that group. I do know that alot of the ex military guys that went back to fight as mercenaries went to go fight with the kurds. I was in baghdad for 2 tours and kuwait for the 3rd. I know baghdad pretty well but thats about it. When i was there they shia and sunnis were blowing each other up almost as much as they were trying to blow us up. All over flavors of religion.

If i was supreme overlord i would make that whole region a sheet of glass.

So it basically seems, from the comments of the veterans, that the Kurds are more "politically favorable" to certain parties but are really just another face of the enemy. Of course not all Kurds.

It appears only two vetearns have commented so far. That's not enough for a real representative sample.

Keith

This veteran has never met a kurd. All i know is hearsay. I have met a couple thousand sunnis and shias. Searched easily over a thousand houses. Can count on one hand how many rolls of toilet paper i have seen in an iraqi house.

If only two veterans comment, and one who hasn't met a Kurd, it appears that it will be the best t-man sample I'll get. Lol.
Hopefully there will be more reply's Keith.

I can say that in 2003 after the fall of Saddam's regime, the Kurds in the north were a US military partner. I partook in the invasion with the 101st ABN and got to travel that God forsaken land from the very south all the way to the Syrian border with then Major General David Patraeus as the division commander. Like any organization/sect you can only trust them so much and there is always going to be those that hate you. However, from 03-04' our military relationship with the Kurds was favorable as we knew they were willing to fight the Iraqi army with us. Not like we really needed them much, but if Saddam would have had chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction things could have been far worse and casualties could have mounted quick. So many of those that followed in the footsteps of the invasion forgot that we were wearing chemical suits when the order to cross the border came down and we didn't know what to expect. In hindsight any agreement to fight in unison with the Kurds was irrelevant, but they were still willing to put their lives on the line as well and we never disarmed them. I can remember them driving around in their Toyota's packed full of men and RPG's/AK-47's.

No one in that region of the world will ever trust us, not only for this as its pretty insignificant given that population density, but because of the possibility of being just randomly abandoned no matter who you are.

Also as history has taught us, we can fight with anyone up until it's time to fight each other. Look at our alliance with Russia. To think we could always stay at peace with the Kurds would defy history.

Very volatile region in which we cannot clearly win any war unless we want to occupy/govern the whole region. No point loosing any more of our guys there. Keep any real threats to the USA in check with airstrikes....which is what we should have done with bin laden in afgan, dropped a tactical nuke on him and his band of hatred. We will probably have to fight these folks sooner or later but not with two hands tied behind our back. In 20 years they will be running the eu.

I can agree with that.

Trumpy Bear is just performing his old tricks again. Like a schoolboy who says "look, your shoe is untied". He wants to distract attention from the real trouble he is in regarding impeachment proceedings at the expense of a truly explosive setting which could free thousands of IS fighters who are in detention camps.

What the ..........another liberal on T man

Bomb the detention centers....set em very free, in pieces.

What the ..........another liberal on T man

Heck yeah. Hey AntiGov you need to find a place to live where there is no government. Try Somalia. "Government for the people and by the people". You might have heard of that before.

Hey Rats! where did you serve?

I served three years active duty US Army; cold war in WEST Germany (before unification) Cold war period. Ready to fight at any time. Combat mobile unit. Expert marksman. Radar repairman for a HAWK missile air defense battery. Left the service as E5 sergeant. How about your service The Possum Man?

9 and a half years active duty US army infantry.

Actually encountered 2 different sects of Kurds. The ones in the north (more militant) and the nomads. The nomads never seemed to bother anyone and mostly kept to themselves. By 05 the ones in the north were very deceitful and were definitely not our friends. I also kicked in more doors than I care to remember or share. Also encountered MANY IED's. Some of which in Kurdish territory and almost always included ambush from cowards in that region. I can honestly say I have no ill will toward any of them. We did invade and occupy their homeland. I however don't trust the vast majority of any of them. As far as the religion I have no problem with it or those that practice it. just like any form of worship. Only the radicals are a problem with me and I question them being religious anyway.

Pretty sure they helped us in Iraq during Desert Storm and we helped them, heck they were naming their kids after Bush and Cheney back then. If they were not working with us why would we need to pull out our 150 troops we have working with them.

I believe they were the ones that smoked that Russia jet a few years back also.

Expert non combat Liberal
SE.Asia 69-72

still served for you and i.opposing viewpoints should be pondered,not automatically dismissed.

thanx to all that have served to give me this blessed life i have.

Rats I would appreciate if you didn't attempt to make this political in an attempt to get this thread axed. This has nothing to do with false accusations to try and remove a duly elected President.
My whole thought was to try to determine if the Kurds are enough of an ally to militarily defend if attacked by Turkey, ISIS, etc. My personnel opinion is that the U.S. military's job is to protect and defend the U.S. Not so much to be the world's police force. Although I do believe we should, if a country is a true ally, help defend it against unprovoked aggression.

I expect a man to keep his word. If the Kurds were told the U. S. has their back then our country should keep its word

Interesting.

Where I grew up had a significant Armenian population. It was the Turks that carried out the wholesale slaughter of Armenians (Christians) but not a single one of the old folks mentioned anything about Kurds.

In less years than that - less than a handful are running the US........and allowed to represent US God fearing citizens. We need to conduct a self examination.

Just from that child like response, I know he'll never add anything of value to a discussion.

I think that is a big part of the problem with the Kurds.

They are an unpopular ethnic minority in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

They have no established Homeland or Country

I don't think the Kurdish populations in any of these Countries

have the support of their governments currently in power.

Much Like the Montagnards in the Vietnamese and Laos highlands,

the Kurds are an unpopular ethnic group that everybody loves to hate.

Like the United States used the Montagnards in Vietnam,

So too have they used the Kurds as proxy fighters

to fight limited engagements against Saddam, Assad, and ISIS.

George Bush I essentially abandoned the Kurds at the end the Gulf War

after encouraging them to revolt against Saddam.

Now President Trump, or whomever is advising him, is doing the same thing.

This is the 1st instance where I disagree with President Trump on Foreign Policy.

The Kurds have always fought with their backs to the wall to the death.

We'll see how it shakes out, but President Trump is way wrong on this one.

w

I throw the B.S. Flag on Donnersurvivor's assertions that the Kurds are complicit in Genocide.

While some Kurdish sects may have been ordered by Turks to commit atrocities,

It was Ottoman Turks running the show

In all the History of World War 1 that I have studied, Turkey's Ottoman Empire

was responsible for the Genocide of up to 1.5 MILLION Armenians.

No mention of a loosely scattered ethnic Kurdish minority inhabiting

the Mountainous regions of Turkey, Iraq, and Iran

being responsible for any wholesale Turkish Genocide.

w

I can agree with that also. In about 40 years, unless the US makes some major changes, they'll be running America too. That is their goal if you listen to what some CAIR leaders have said.

I know some teachers in my area who refuse to teach in schools with high Muslim populations. They say the kids are extremely rude. On female teacher told me a Muslim girl was standing and walking around the room during class. She refused to take her seat when told to. She said, "This is America and I can do whatever I want."

We left thousands of Hmong to fend for themselves against their enemies, so if we left the Kurds it is not like it is a new policy for the US. Not saying I support that, just saying we have history of walking away from people who supported us and helped us until we felt there was no more need for the fight or them.

Bryce

I doubt it's a complete abandonment. Trump prolly has something up his sleeve.

The news media won't give us ALL the info

Trump says if the Turks touch the Kurds he will destroy their economy. We will see if that can hold back their hatred, but I doubt it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49983357

The BBC ????? its like the CNN of the UK

We will see if Trump keeps his word.

If he does it will be the first time. He thinks he's God as he flies by the seat of his pants right into a catastrophe.

Jarhead

Another one .....

Your username goes along perfectly with your ignorant comment.

Are you saying there is not the start of a Turkish Invasion of northern Syria by Erdogan's Forces

along with artillery shelling & airstrikes of Kurdish held territory ?

w

So how would you experts handle 70k ISIS pow, 10k expat ISIS that want to return to their homes in the EU and other places and 2 million Suni Refugees in Turkey that ASAD ran out. The Kurds cants keep them contained and the turks do not want them in their country. Asad and Russia are moving north and the Iranians are reving up their engines also. Last year the Kurds were negostiating with ASAD according to the news.. Its all not good, and we held the peace with 50 supermen.

All I have heard is they can not be trusted. JMO

Turkey is moving across the border and some kurds have already been killed. I believe they said 2.

Who ?

Trump, Erdogan,, or the Kurds ?

w

You tell him not to get political when all he did was express his opinion(one that is shared by many-even republicans). One of the next poster made it political by calling him a liberal. .....I suppose, when one considers trump's habit of name-calling, we should not be surprised when his followers use the same tactic any time somebody thinks differently than they do.

I agree with ND FTA. I was on highway between Basra and Baghdad with the 101st Airborne during Desert Storm as a sapper with the 187th Infantry Brigade. We were friendly with the Kurds in the north and they fought along side of of the allies. When we pulled out because we met our military objective of freeing Kuwait, we left them to be punished by Saddam. Then the Kurds helped the U.S. again during the next invasion. They are a good fighting force but knew they would have no peace with Saddam still in power. I think we may be hanging them out again to fend for themselves after we used them to fight with us. I feel sorry for them the way we used them and left them. I don't have an answer to the problems going on there now or how the Kurds should be treated now, but in my experience they were brave fighters on our side. I spent 11 years as a combat engineer (12B), five with 101st Airborne Division retired as an E-7 SFC for those that may want to know. Just my two cents worth.

And yet You hold the record( responsible) for " the most axed threads "

What do you think the Kurds will do with the prison full of ISIS members?

Fine move by the guy who claims to have “great and unmatched wisdom”

Could this have anything to do with it?

From Newsweek.

As the world reacted to America's sudden abandonment of its most trusted and effective local allies, a tweet from Trump's daughter Ivanka resurfaced, detailing a relevant conflict of interest regarding relations with Turkey.

"Thank you Prime Minister Erdogan for joining us yesterday to celebrate the launch of #TrumpTowers Istanbul!" Ivanka wrote in April 2012. The construction—made up of two conjoined towers—is one of seven current Trump Towers locations.

You just can't help yourself can you?

ND FTA / lestan 101 have pretty much summed it up. When I was up north in Irbil, the Kurds could not have been more friendly, for what they had. They just want to be left alone to raise their family's. And this talk of them being Muslim, I've seen mostly Christian Kurds, even worshipped in one of their Christian churches. They are a proud people who talk about their family every chance they get and want to know about your family in return. I just hope they do well in the future.
Retired Air Force/Air Guard MSGT. 26 years. Civil Engineer.

What do you think will happen with the ISIS prisoners under Kurd control?
The deed is done. Was it a good decision?

He can’t.

My thoughts are the Kurds being good fighters, probably will not tolerate them.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ish-assault-ahead-imminent-invasion.html

Let God sort em out!

If nothing else, he is predictable

The biggest problem with the entire Middle East region is that all of the boundaries of those "countries" were drawn in pencil after WWII and not by any of the people who live there. So not surprisingly, those "borders" mean nothing to the vast majority of those people. What does seem to matter to them, is what religious sect does one belong to.
The only ones who want us there are the ones who are being out-slaughtered by the neighboring sects which disagree with their religious sect beliefs.
We need to leave them alone and let Allah sort it out.

I agree Carl,....let them hash out their differences,...we can and have been played by so many angles,..they need to settle their own discrepancies.

At some point Russia is going to step in to fill the void as world police is my concern. And then what? Russian expansion? Putin seems to have already eluded to that.

I agree , Putin is the snake in the grass , and we should pay close attention

Becoming the worlds police is expensive( we know that),...I have faith our government leaders know that!

I don't see any way of looking at this that doesn't make me think it will be a historically huge mistake.

Yup

Russia is playing for central Asia/middle east. China is playing for the Indian Ocean and Africa.

Sure,... let them pay for,.(domination),..they will have to own it. Americans build America!

Wow, you actually made a substantive post! Instead of just whining about someone else's.

Jim

Who made you the post police , jimmy ?

While you're at it will you correct my grammar / puncuation ?

Is something I said inaccurate?
Is the question I asked out of line?

Some simply cannot tolerate thinking that does not align with their own. Many on both side are questioning trump's actions regarding this matter.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that trump is unstable and becoming more so as the election approaches. He/we needs a republican challenger.

Since I started this thread grackle, let me inform you my intent of this subject. It was not for a leftist Trump bashing, I get that every time I turn on the news, it was whether the Kurds were a true ally that should be defended. I think most U.S. citizens are tired of U.S. blood being spilled over foreign squabbles, yet most do realize in certain cases it's necessary, whether for protecting our allies are securing our own security.

Let'em have it. What the heck good is it? We got it, don't know what to do with it, cant even find a good way to dump it. We should give Afganistan back to the Ruskies also.

Its not like they came here to help us, or are helping anyone else on their good will. They fought along side the US because it benefitted them, period.
Pulling out was a good and long overdue call. If not now, when?

Thought of this comment this morning as I listened to the new. The Kurds are now reaching out to the Russians asking them to work with Erderron (sp) .

This could now escalate between Russia and turkey who have been historic rivals.

A fair evaluation of the situation, though one may have to go back to the restructuring that occurred at the end of World War I.

https://www.dodlive.mil/2017/08/11/how-world-war-i-made-the-middle-east-what-it-is-today/

You'd have thought Russia would've learned their lesson back in the 80's, in Afghanistan.

his ego would never let him,he's just as bad as that"who-flung-poo"in N.Korea.with a lot more bad buttons to push.

So pulling 50-150 American servicemen causes the entire regional chaos?
Our guys must be bad-a$$.

Instead of calling BS you could of simply Googled what I said and found out the truth rather easily. The Kurds had been extorting the Armenians since the late 1800s by charging them illegal taxes and routinely robbing them, the ruling Turks did nothing to stop and let it go on for quite some time. When the Genocide was occurring the Turks allowed the Kurds to wholesale murder the Armenians and steal their belongings including their homes. From my understanding the Turks did not pay the Kurds to rob and kill the Armenians nor did they demand they do it, they just allowed them and the Kurds took full advantage.

There are numerous Kurdish groups who admit this happened.

If I am wrong tell me why and give me the right information to educate me instead of just saying BS because the information I provided is outside your current scope of knowledge.

It opens up the Kurds to attack without the chance of killing any Americans and then opening up a can of worms they don't want to mess with! More about politics then firepower. Same as when we don't attack Syrian troops because they have Russians mixed in with them for support.

Interesting but typical.
J Staton asked for comments from those who were in the area.
I suggest a poll of those who have commented here as who was actually in the area.
just

Most who were there stated so, and are the ones who directly addressed his question.

Many ex military went back to fight with the Kurds so I don't think they are all that bad, Trump referenced that they did nothing in WWII for us but then what about the 2 latest wars in Iraq then?

You'd have thought we would have learned from what happened with Russia in Afghanistan before we got stuck there. At least they had the sense to pull out in around 9 years..... Thousands of lives and trillions of dollars and things are no more stable now.

There were quotes on foxnews in the past hour from US military members who are very upset that the men they "fought and bled with" are being abandoned. If you want opinions from those who have been/are there, they stated theirs.

Kurds are getting pounded now bad move for Trump, not happy and I let them know it.

The KURDS are our "Brothers In Arms"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5JkHBC5lDs


w

You are Talking as if The Turks had nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide and that It was planned, and

executed solely by the Kurdish minority while the Turks smoked hashish and watched.

That's B.S.

If you look at the historical record as a whole, The Turkish Army was by far, more involved in the affair than

The Kurdish Minority.

That's like saying that Bulgarians were responsible for the Holocaust because some Bulgarian Policemen

helped the Nazi's round up some Gypsies and Jews.

While I've read of some instances that Kurds were involved in persecuting Armenians, saying the Kurds were

the driving force behind the Armenian genocide is a load of Bull Excrement.

w

I said nor implied that the Turks had little to do with it, it is common knowledge the Turks were the main aggressors. That doesn't mean the Kurds were not involved which they were and not on a small scale.

I'll Give you that.

They were certainly involved but they played a less than major role.

I just read the entire wikipedia file on the subject, and there is mountains of historical data on the subject.

It was a free for all on the Armenians because they were Christians and the Turks Muslim.

The Kurds were only one of many who had a hand in wiping out the Armenians.

Now It looks like the KURDS have long out lived their usefulness to Turkey,

and They are next in the Turkish Genocide Lottery unless Mr. Trump Takes a couple steps back.

w

Armenia is on the West side of Turkey. The Kurds live almost exclusively on the East side of Turkey. I find it very unlikely that the Kurds left their area of Turkey and went through areas of Turkey that are hostile to them, in anything approaching significant numbers to hurt Armenians, who they have no issue with. It would be dangerous for the Kurds and make absolutely no sense.

Keith

Does Turkey have a legitimate reason, such as terrorism by the Kurds, or is this truly unprovoked aggression? A person or country has a right to defend themselves and determining if there's a legitimate reason for such aggression should determine policy . In my opinion.

Armenians were by in large of Russian origin and were

1st swept up and conquered in the 15th century by muslims.

When the Turks started evicting them from their homes

in Western Turkey, they were marched west into

the Syrian desert before the Kurds got involved.

If anything, It's more likely

the Kurds were victims of circumstance

and coerced into persecuting the Armenians.

w

The Kurds are fighting for a separate state.

The U.N should rewrite the national boundary lines to create a Greater Kurdistan

from ceded territory of the Mountainous regions of Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.

That way all three nations "solve" their KURD problem and the Kurdish people get a homeland.

The KURDS should get some of the oil rich region in northern Iraq

and a corridor between Syria and Turkey to the Mediterranean Sea

so they can pipe out their oil and become a self-sustaining nation.

w

in a perfect world Walleyed,that should be easy but these people have a hatred for eachother i don't think we can understand.

All the more reason to give the KURDS their own country.

Wouldn't be any worse than what they did in 1948 when they gave

the Jews their own homeland in present day Isreal.

The KURDS already "owned" the Mountainous regions of Turkey, Iraq, and Iran

before the League of Nations drew the arbitrary lines on a map after World War I.

They should have went with traditional tribal boundaries instead.

w

The Armenians are from eastern Turkey, are not Russian (Slavs) but are Caucasians (Kavkas)

After listening to the news conference about this today, there is alot of hype being peddled by the media/war hawks in D.C. as to what actually is going on over there.

I actually think Trump is on the right track, rather than send troops and money to the oppressed, put the squeeze financially on the oppressor.

Seen where some Special Ops guys are not happy, they said they fought and bleed with those guy and said they are ashamed of the actions being taken now.

I hear today Erdogan's forces shelled U.S. Special Forces with a heavy artillery barrage,

after which they were quickly evacuated from the area.

Sounds like Trump's decision to show weakness has had unforseen consequences

as abandoning the KURDS,(If he really has), has emboldened Erdogan to push the envelope.

Turkey needs to have it's military aid chopped, our air bases shuttered, and then kicked out of NATO.

Apply some crippling financial sanctions to the Turkish economy, and make them see the error of their ways.

w

The middle east is a bigger mess than the western world can comprehend. These people want peace but they also want revenge on one another. They always want war on one side or the other. We just created a power vacuum for the Russians. But, we forget. We were once Allies with Russia. We fought a common enemy together. Then we built up for a war against each other. Why? Because we both thought we betrayed one another. Now the Kurds will think we betrayed them. Hopefully we dont radicalize those in the US and subject ourselves to radical Kurdish extremist terrorism.

We kinda want an airbase there....are alliance to Turkey is more to keep Russia in check. It will be interesting to see how this turns out in the next 6 years.

Erdogan wanted F-35 or F-22 fighter/bombers from the U.S. and then turned around

and ordered advanced radar defense systems from Russia.

Erdogan has been slowly climbing in bed with Putin over the last few years, and playing both sides.

I understand that we need Incirlik airbase and others for strategic reasons,

But If Turkey is supposed to be NATO's check of Russian Hegemony,

then NATO needs to apply more pressure to Ergodan

to start acting more like an trusted ally.

w

You can put shiney new clothes on a caveman, but he will still be a caveman.

Osky

Could apply to anyone involved in this issue?

Well said.

What happened to the veterans?

True Dat.

w

I don't comment on many of these brouhaha's but my son did 4 tours in Afganistan as an Army Ranger. Part of the Army's preparation of Special Ops guys is a thorough education on culture and history of the regions they're deployed in. The entire Middle East/Central Asia region has been a tinderbox for centuries and will continue to be long after we're gone. My son attended a school in Florida to learn the Pashto language (the language of the Taliban). The teachers were Afgan friendlies working with the dept of defense hoping to earn American citizenship. These Afgans "teachers" were noticeably difficult towards my son during most of the training. He came to learn from some of them that because of his appearance and last name they assumed he was of Russian heritage. My point is that the Russians are certainly NOT loved in the Middle East. Yes they may garner some additional influence, but we don't need their oil anymore so let them have the middle east. Our only true ally is Israel and even Saudi Arabia will befriend Israel if it serves their political or defensive desires. Let Russia have it. Turkey was once considered a dependable ally. A little religion and politics makes for a mess.

Too bad we don't support our friends and allies like we used to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF6CPwOeS38

w

The Kurds are Socialist/communist and separatist, the U.S has listed several Kurdish groups as terrorist. They were useful in the fight against ISIS when we had a common enemy but I fail to see why we should help them usher in their commie separatist state.

Again, I have no first hand knowledge but everything I have said is easily researched, look into it yourself and come to your own conclusions as to why we would not want to continue helping them.

Pretty sure the Kurdish PKK and YPG were listed by the U.S. as a terrorist organization because of

enormous political pressure brought by Turkey as a NATO ally.

They are fighting for a Kurdish homeland for their own people (TRIBE).

That doesn't automatically qualify them as terrorists.

In another situation, they might be considered Partisans or Revolutionists fighting to establish their own country.

Kind of like during the American Revolution.

Erdogan has no intention of giving the KURDs a fair shake in their own country, and as an unpopular minority

They will continue to be an oppressed people.

It's tribalism at It's finest,but that doesn't mean it should be condoned by a civilized world.

w

A lot of Interpretors we had in 05 were Kurds. The ones I dealt with were very pleasant. I recall one was afraid if any of the local Baghdad population would find out he was Kurdish. Crazy times....

Weren’t the Russians our allies in WW II??

Enemy of my enemy and all that. It ended fairly abruptly when they started trying to decide who got control of berlin. Hence the berlin wall and the start of the cold war.

Tuff situation no matter how you look at it.
Both are concerned.soldered allies.

Yes and we basically helped them achieve everything Germany wanted to, a genocidal expansionist oligarchy who controlled half of Europe. It has become very obvious Communist/socialist regimes are destined for failure, I dont think the U.S should help form or promote them.

Kurds fought and died with us just like others we walked away from in the past! If they were the enemy why did the special ops guy work with them all of these years?

So did the Turks Lawdog.

What was the problem when our guys were there fighting ISIS then why not let them stay there and keep the peace! When were the turks on our side?

Not listed here but they did at least once!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Turkey

Not sure how we're heading that differently, by I see the U.S. and Turkey on the Allied column alot.

Kurdish general to U.S.: Either protect us, or 'move aside so we can let in the Russians'

https://theweek.com/speedreads/871455/kurdish-general-either-protect-move-aside-let-russians

We are, once again, planting seeds that will sprout terrorists bent on paying us back....... We never learn.

From my perspective the Iraq war we started may be the worst military and political decision we ever made as a nation. We further destabilized a very sensitive and fragile region of the world where hate and resentment is still the majority feeling by nations and people. We spent an awful lot of money to create a situation we don't have the patience, intelligence and fortitude to deal with as we probably should. Once we made this area scrambled eggs we have not put forth the discipline and force needed to paste it back to a more stable region then it is today. When you start picking and choosing clans and tribes as part of foreign policy we should not be surprised by the results we are getting and that has been the case for a decade and not just the last couple years.

Bryce

Spot on, bblwi!!! dick cheney should have his name dragged through the mud anytime problem are bought up over there. One of the worst Americans in history.

We could secure our border for a fraction of the cost as worrying about someone's border 7000 miles away.

Not saying I disagree but why let Bush jr off the hook and just look at the VP? Ultimately it was President Bush who had the authority (maybe only in theory).

Fight with people for almost 30 years then walk away and let them get slaughtered wholesale, you will never sell me any angle I will agree with. It's not this guy or that guy it's about loyalty nothing more.

Yes. There are sooooo many things that would have been better uses for the money we have pour down the drain of that cesspool.

And Donner, I don't give gw a free pass but, I believe cheney was pulling the strings and was upset that daddy-Bush didn't use the chance to stay over there and make him and heliburton friends even richer. HW was smart enough to know that going in without a workable exit strategy was a mistake.

Do we babysit forever?

Some of you genius' who are saying that we should not get out, are the same ones who screamed when we went in.
If I had been King when 3,000 innocent Americans were slaughtered in 2001, they would be mining glass over there now.
Our men and women were sent over there to fight a "kind" war with their hands tied behind their backs.
If we are not willing to turn everything into rubble and not worry about collateral damage (women and, children included), then we should not step one foot over there. Period!
Given all of the different factions involved over there who are mortal enemies of each other, it is impossible to "win" anything, therefore we should not spend one minute over there.
We should get out now and stay out. If they attack us again, it will be time to fire up the glass factory.

Leaving is not the issue but when, how and what the results of those moves that will come back to bite us is the problem. Could of been done better a lot of different ways is all.

Syrian Kurds are now appealing to Assad and Russia for help

holding off Erdogan and the Genocide-bent Turks who are invading northern Syria.

Reports say a large number of ISIS dependents (women & children) plus close to 800

ISIS combatants have escaped from holding areas run by the KURDS.

Every thing is descending into chaos.

Perfect.

Glad U.S. forces are not caught in the crossfire but the pullout

could have been thought out a little better along with a big stick

to whack Erdogan if He started to act aggressively towards the Syrian/Iraqi KURDS.

w

Well let me say that I was in NAM and we were fighting with our hands tried. I can't remember how many times I had to call in to the CP for permission to fire back!!!
What I needed was someone to help us win that WAR!!!! If it was the KURDS so be it. I don't think we should leave our allies. It just makes look more undependable.
I don't like the way we got into this fight, but we should stick it out.

If we stay, we better plan on staying forever because the Kurds can't protect themselves now and I doubt the ever will.

Allying with any faction in the Middle East has always been a crap shoot. You can NEVER be sure that you won't regret it down the road...

We aligned with the Shah in Iran... Didn't work.

We backed the mujihadeen in Afghanistan... Precursor to the Taliban.

We backed Saddam to help fight Iran.

We back the Saudis.

We always go in with good intentions... But how do you help a region of the world where humanity is not a concern of the inhabitants who live there?

I can't really say I support either side of this debate because it seems there is no "right" decision when it comes to the Middle East. We might end up regretting NOT helping the Kurds... But chances are just about even we might regret helping them.

Mike

I have absolutely no problem with bringing our Warriors home.

Maybe bringing our troops out is the best call now but we are leaving our dirty laundry scattered all over the whole Mid-East. One does not build solid foreign policy relations by starting fights and then leaving after damaging whatever balance may have been there before entering. It has been a good way for us to test our weaponry and find markets for our military arms and technology, but at the expense of lives of many who we seem to discount as lesser humans even if they help and support us.

Bryce

I didn't see it mentioned, the sticky point is that...

Whenever we go somewhere like that, blow it up, and then leave, the inrush of people back filling that void creates another problematic group. That is what created Taliban, Isis, and etc. So its easy to want our boys to come home but the worrisome part is the future problems it creates and it potentially being a major problem. That is my understanding of it, I might be wrong. But I suspect loosing the generals that Trump has due this view point in particular tells me that they disagree with him / it too. That is the part that scares me.

"Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. "

^Eisenhower?

Yes. Who would be more knowledgeable about both sides of the military industrial complex equation? I'm sure it has only gotten worse.

For one, It's not our job to police the world. I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, as long as it doesn't darken our door I say let them have at it. Secondly, I grew up as a kid during NAM and know how our Gov't hamstringed our Warriors, here we go again. If your gonna get'em, then dang it get'em. Thirdly, We defeated ISIS and that was the job, took years to do, now it's time to go. Lastly, we were only supposed to be there for a short while and what, 9 years later we are there, BS. All the blowhards in Congress, including Repubs that are running their mouths and slamming Trump for keeping a promise to us, bringing our troops home, need to either shut up or do what they are supposed to do. Declare WAR and then kick some butt.

+1!

I heard some place the other day the Kurds have killed something in the neighborhood of 40,000 Turks over a period of time, I can’t remember exactly what they said. We turned iraq and Afghanistan into a parking lot for 10 percent of that so hard to blame them for the invasion

The promise was. Fight the terrorist Push them back. Bring our troops home. Let the UN be the world police. Trump pushed the Russians out of Syria made them play nice. Let them back in. If people want freedom at some point in there existence they have to fight for themselves. Bring out troops home.

That's a good start.

Someone pick me one faction in Syria or neighboring countries which is trustworthy of anything whatsoever.

VP Pence brokered a cease-fire between Turkey and Syria today. We’ll see how long it lasts.

What needs to happen now is the Kurds, The Syrian Government Forces, and the Russians

need to hit the Turks, and hit them hard and knock their arses back across the border.

Maybe even roll about 50 miles into Turkey, and establish a "Buffer Zone" on Turkey's side of the border.

Turkey started this little border dust-up so they are the aggressors. No need for fellow NATO members

to come to their aid since they started it as they are the bully in the region.

IMHO.

w

Coptic Christians. They've been reduced from 1.5 million in the late 90s to around 250,000 now. You guys can argue about Armenian genocide from a hundred years ago all you want, it's happening today right under the world's nose. Islam is the trendy religion now, no one wants to offend them, yet they are murdering and displacing Christians at an unprecedented rate. USMC Iraq veteran, Fallujah 04-05, Rutbah 08.

That would be a violation of the cease-fire Walleyed.

I've been lurking for a while reading the forums, figured I couldn't let y'all have all the fun.

Welcome to Tman sneaky.

Very good point, sneaky.

Are the Syrians, Turks, Iraqis, or Kurds complicit

in the persecution of Coptic Christians ?

We know the ISIS Caliphate was responsible for much of genocide

but are any of the above guilty of the same ethnic purging in a systematic way ?

w

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/17/us-...vice-president-mike-pence-announces.html

w

Thank you, sir. Glad to be here

good insight. For you guys who feel like we need to defend the Kurds and attack the Turks, the Kurds accept western volunteers.

While this is several years old, I will chime in as I’m new… we had a Kurd as our interpreter in Iraq- 2004 and 2005, was very polite and helpful…. My 2¢, ….

Although this thread is old, it is still very relevant today. Particularly with the recent visits to the Middle East by both Biden and Putin.

Erdogan accuses US of training terrorists