NAFA Speaks again ....

New just in … 10/23/2019





Garry-

Yes I received this memo today as many NAFA/WFCS did I am sure.
I want to thank Paul for helping keep this issue on the forum and up to date. Whether one ships fur there or not or does not like the auction house or houses and or system it is a critically important aspect of the USA ranch and fur industry and we all have stakes in the ending outcome(s). For many it seems this good, bad or ugly situation is all about ranch fur, which from a numbers and revenue stream it most assuredly is, but as a shipper of wild fur I have benefited from having local pickup and drop off places that keep my costs low and my options more flexible. With so many disappointed in how this situation has unfolded and may play out it may well be a good time for more state organizations to start some auctions to see if more new buyers want to enter into the game. Not really a bad time to start when one can start with limited cash or leverage and somewhat lower risks of downside movement. $20,000 buys a lot more WI wild fur than it did 5 years ago

Bryce

we still need end users to get anywhere,bottom line.

Has anybody had any problem with the reissued checks. The original checks bounced. I have four accounts worth of reissued checks. I have not had time to deposit my checks. All the new checks are just copies of the old checks. My bank says they are good checks and they will be honored just like the old ones. Problem is, I was charged a fee for the check bouncing.

Does anyone know if the old checks good now?

The guy on the phone told me to send in a copy of the receipts showing a charge and they would cover that as well. Luckily I didn't get a charge, but I also havent got a new check either...

Okay... everyone else may know who Saga Furs is, but I have no idea … would someone please let use, that don't know, understand? thank you.

Garry-

Just google " SAGA fur Auction"

From their website



Wild fur is not quite their thing, but then one could argue that it wasn't quite NAFA's thing either.

Thank you Mainer … now I know to stay even farther away from NAFA …

Garry-

Soo looking over their website I don't see any talk about wild fur. I'm assuming NAFA is still accepting fur for future actions correct? Anybody heard which auction house will be selling what? SAGA farm furs and NAFA wild furs maybe?

Fellas at this time, you would have to be brain dead to send any fur to NAFA. I just talked to Brian at NAFA and he was not sounding to happy. I would really be skeptical about sending one pelt to Nafa, until some of us dealers , at least get our money from NAFA. It really don't look good at this time. Unless SAGA can say they will be interested in handling wild fur, I would not send anything to NAFA. I have enough fur at NAFA left to sell and they now owe me enough money, that they will have to prove to me they are fluid once again. Things do not look good at NAFA fellas.

Beav, Boco and BBWI aren't the least bit skeptical.

Thank you Don on your insight. Good advice from a seasoned and well respected fur buyer. Who still is in business today buying and selling fur.

When Don Wolf talks, ALL trappers should listen !!!

w

Something else to think about that wolf didn't mention is that Brian is leaving nafa . that should also be he knows something.

Brian is leaving nafa ?when ? I email him.month ago an told me things about same as last season, they may not even handle wild fur ?

i think there was another thread about Nafa coonman.not good

As I see, NAFA was for some country buyers the market and for some the competition. I would think a buyer who sticks his neck out to start paying last year prices this Fall might not be around come Fall 2021.

Alot small country buyers could not afford to wait months for auction pay, alot them go though groenwold i heard

What's chapter 11?

little bigger than chapter 10

I talked to a NAFA employee today at fur school. We are good friends and he wouldn't say anything about what's going on. But he did say within 72 hours everything will come to light ad the cat will be out of the bag.
He also said that T man posters don't have a clue on what has happened or what's going to happen. So I wouldn't be giving up hope just yet.

gotta believe the damage is done.

The old cks will NEVER be good.Tha bank account is closed. NAFA will make a statement as to the cks soon. Be patient and count your blessings.

Me either. I feel one (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) of a lot better today than I did a week ago.

To me for the one say the one T man don't have clue for what is going on because of that NAFA dose not want to tell there shippers what is going on for what do say is only what they only want us to think is going on then what is and bounce the checks. For what that one say prove that .

Your friend sounds like a company man. Wrong guy to talk to. Got find the employees that are a little irritated with nafa. Then you get the truth.

I guess we will just have to wait and see. He told me that there are only 5 individuals that know how this going to shake out. So I'm sure the disgruntled employees aren't In the loop. Be patient grasshopper.

No wonder we don't know whats going on, they don't tell us squat. I bet a lot of what we say on here is the truth whenever it comes out-if it ever does.

It's gonna be OK. I'll give em whatever support I can.

Oh, Beav. Really? They tell trappers to pound sand, lose financial credibility with the bank they have been working with for years, bounce checks all over north america, going radio silent, and you expect a rabbit out of the hat?!
Good grief. You are either sitting on a huge pile of bogus nafa checks and praying, or you have lost your marbles.

Good or bad the facts will come out soon. Nafa will either be still In the wild fur game or they won't.
My check didn't bonce.

Well, wait a minute: I assumed that when they issued an official statement that their bank dropped the ball, that was the truth. Then the letter/statement that all checks and fees were covered by the "new bank". Then SAGA will cover it, no problem.
In the next week, I forecast rain.

Talk is cheap and time will tell .

Beav, you got real lucky or you had small checks to cash. I was told if I want to pay more bonced check fees, to run the checks through my bank again. Bonce was your word, not mine Beav. Don't know if bonce means the same thing as bounce, but only the Beav. knows.
Was told that certain things might be known the first of next week. I think they are pretty sure about ranch Mink, not so sure about wild fur. Then the problem of,even if Saga decides to go ahead with the wild fur, will they pick up the tab on wild fur that was sold on the last auction. Lots of variables we talked about today.
I am thankful I started to diversify several years ago. I will have my markets on Beaver pelts, Beaver castor, Rats, Coyotes, and Mink. Coon on my markets will be a tough sell. Otter is a tough item and Red and Grey Fox will be tough. I hope MR. Phil didn't have a lot of Fox stored at NAFA.
The fur world will be a different place if NAFA folds on wild fur. I started selling to Dominion Soudak in 1962 or 63 or some time around there. Then started at the Bay in 65 or 66 I think. All I know is it has been a heck of a ride. One I am proud of being a part of. I was one of the founding members of the wild fur council. I met people from all over the world and these people were, good people. My wife and I always liked to get to the auction house early on sale days so we could sit and watch the buyers come in with a good looking gal, on each side of their body. All the Ladies were decked out in fur. In time we got to meet some of the buyers and did a bit of socializing with them.
It has been a great life and one I would never trade with not a Soul on this Earth. Even though I will still be buying fur for several seasons yet, I do know that my ride on the fur train is just about over.

So NAFA is insulting the Trapperman posters in they do not know what is going on, and from the above letter, the Trapperman posters have had this right from the start in NAFA blew it on ranch fur, did not have the markets, went "bankrupt", tried to get the regime in Canada to bail them out for millions in loans which fell through, left customers in the dark and with bad checks, and have now appeared in a SAGA takeover. SAGA is a Finnish auction house which prides itself on a RESPONSIBLE and ETHICAL choice in Europe.That means European regulations are coming to Canada and America. SAGA is in control not NAFA. With all the harping Europeans do about North American fur taking methods, and SAGA only deals with top quality furs, it should be easy to follow this trail where it is going. This appears to be tapping the high end furs for a monopoly out of Canada and the States and dump the rest as furs which will be rejected.
SAGA only entered this deal for the cream and I highly doubt if those at NAFA calling Tman posers ignorant are the cream, and within 5 years, these incompetent managers who bet on ranch fur, will be replaced with Europeans who will operate under the European Union's regulations.

Chapter 11 is an action when they file to be able to write-off certain items, and they want to reorganize, but then there is a person or a panel of people that are charged by the court to over see what happens. There are times when the court has stepped in and stopped the action, because what they wanted to do in not feasible in the long run. The corporation filling the action can select who they want to pay and how much and then the court decide if that is reasonable and fair. The court can also tell them they have to pay so much on the dollar. Believe me it isn't much. I was involved in one some years back when I had a business and I was only owed like $300 and I ended up getting a check for a little more than a buck fifty. The people or companies with standing claims are usually categorized and the high class you are in the more you get of what you are owed. Like banks are usually sitting right at the top of the list, the little guy gets the hind teat. I hope this explains so it make sense. But again that is Canada so God only knows how it will work there.

Garry-

This^^^^^^^^^^^^. Being realistic seems to be a rare commodity here! This man is as close as anyone knows. Good luck, boys!

FHA,Groeny's,and Warren Crum ROCK.

Where should the long hair go now...(not you Bogmaster) lol ?

your freezer.

lots of good country buyer out there

That's not the case In WI and FHA and NAFA aren't fur buyers.

They'd be hung on here if they beat someone outta a 4 dollar bottle of lure and him-hawd around about it.

Turn out the lights the party is over.

[quote=The Beav]That's not the case In WI and FHA and NAFA aren't fur buyers.[/quote/}.............why? you have to ship to auction houses so ship to buyers........lots of buyer willing to grade your fur and if you don't like there price they ship back to you at there expenise!

That was true in the past. Will it still be true IF NAFA is out of the picture?

Secretary answering the phone in Stoughton said Check and fees would be made right in October. That leaves them 6 more days. If it doesn’t happen NAFA is out of my picture. They also need to address the problem of grading 60 some sandhill caught coyotes as easterns. Furs shipped intact that end up damaged. They need to quit grading by zipcode of the shipper

With SAGA at the wheel i suspect wild fur is out the window with them.

IMO, if SAGA is looking out for their investments, they'd gain control of NAFA and close them down. It would benefit them two ways. First it would eliminate one big source for buyers and second, it would shut down some production of ranch furs which would also benefit them.

That is looking at it from a businesses perspective.

I agree. SAGA is after the North American mink production, some of which is the finest in the world. There are also labels involved, like Blackglma. In high fashion, labels are important. And yes, there are still mink coats in high fashion.

I can see that WissMiss, if it sells above production costs.

Without knowing the terms of their agreement, a good CEO would only keep solvent what will make them money. Time will tell what the terms are.

Blackgamma males selling at around $35 average. Not much value here.

The one thing I learned over the years from NAFA is every sale benefits from bringing the most buyers together.

Someone should call Kopenhagen.

Name me one country fur buyer other then groney that I could ship my fur to.
What would it cost me to ship 200 coon and 40 coyotes to some western fur buyer? So I don't like the grade and they ship them back on their dime. I'm still out my original shipping cost. That Is not going to happen.

"Tom Wiebke, CEO and founder of Wiebke Fur Co., heads our raw fur division. Tom is generally recognized as one of North America’s leading experts in the raw fur business. With over 40 years of experience, he has first hand knowledge of all aspects of the raw fur business.

Wiebke Fur Co. has a vast network of suppliers throughout the U.S. and Canada making it possible for us to produce fur from any section of North America. Our home locations in WI and MN give us access to our specialty, the finest western heavy raccoons in the world. In addition to raccoons, we are also large producers of Western Coyotes, Muskrats, Beavers, Red and Gray Fox, and Wild Mink."

Take I 90!

What about Weibke? He is a major buyer and right on the Minnesota/Wisconsin border. Just as close as Groenwald, isn’t he.

Weibke Is a 6 hour round trip from where I'm at. That's a bit of a haul to find out you don't like his prices. I don't think they run any routes.
Groney Is 15 miles from my door so as far as I can see he Is my only option If NAFA goes belly up.

So you ship them to auction and don't like the grade, you have no say and can't get them back and your out commission fees and drumming. Auction isn't always the highest price either, I've been shipping to buyers the past 3 years and am very happy with my results.

So no one Is stating how much these shipping cost are on a large shipment of fur. And I'm thinking coon aren't going to cut It on most of these western sales. You could be $200 $300.00 in the red before they even see that fur.

Phone: (608) 784-4402

Nafas been eating that cost for years. Might be one of the paper cuts that bled them out.

I guess you boy's are going to have to start hitting the flea markets to sell hides, call them fuzzy floor mats , lol.

....pm me got orders for coyote, rats, western cats, marten

Try shipping fur from my neck of the woods.

......yes agreed but I bought marten from there....the guy would put about 20 to 30 marten in a usps large flat rate box for 18.95 so shipping was .50 to 75 cents per pelt.

wallfur please PM me your marten price structure. Thanks!

You could do shipmthem to me for less then $100 and if it don’t work I’ll ship them back

I've sold marten to wallfur and was very pleased. Quick payment and accurate grades

I am targeting skunks this year because this market stinks.

We need doom and disparity to reach our bottom. Hopeless pessimism here!

I wish KS had a better fur auction. Our state requires a license to buy fur. For a non resident that is 400 bucks. Pretty steep IMO. That fee should be at most 25 bucks or something to pay for filing and other administrative costs. Free would be lots better. Buyers just don't show up at our sale unless they are already buying here. Its pretty common to get a better offer at their place of business than the auction. Colorado for example allows anyone that shows up to buy. No license required. That 400 dollar fee for nonresident buyers really inhibits free market competition.

There are several fur buyers around me despite NAFA. I know several who were told to go buy huge amounts of coon at high prices because they were going to be a huge money maker that season. They took advances to buy them and then the bottom fell out. Yes it was the buyer who borrowed the money(greed) but it was NAFA (greed)that loaned the money and told them to buy them. NAFA has broke more country buyers than they have helped. Heck Terry would even agree with this statement.(Greed). LLL

I laughed when I read this and wondered if you have finally lost your mind. You won't spend a hundred bucks to ship to someone like Shane who would offer you a fair price that you could turn down if you wanted to or get your fur check which I assure you would not bounce without taking out commission or shipping/ tumbling charges and he has no magazine to sell either. No waiting for three months or like some, still waiting. 100% Clearance and you don't have to defend him on here like you and wissmiss do daily with NAFA.

I don't get offended easily but you bragging your check did not bounce and NAFA is not to blame is just too rich for my diet and it turns my stomach a bit.

I pray for the day to return where a country buyer could tell you what fur was worth a month before season because he has orders in advance. If brokers cannot buy fur at a bloated top heavy fur auction then if the end users need them. they will find them. LLL

greed
/ɡrēd/
Learn to pronounce
noun
intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

Is this ^always bad?

Of course not. Greed is only a bad thing when it's the individual ox getting gored.

Some would say a person is greedy if he catches say a 1000 rats, or 1000 coon, or a 1000 fox, or 500 coyotes, or 500 beaver. Are they?

Greed is an integral part of what built this country.

That’s what I kinda thought. But whenever I see it mentioned it always seems to carry a strong negative aura.

Thanks Steve I’m not necessarily affiliated so morality issues can get confusing.

Well some of these furbuyers are no longer buying and had to pay NAFA back for the advances. So it does have its down side.

Catching a thousand of anything is only considered greedy by those who don't, won't or cannot usually. Those trapping 2000 would think they are slackers. LLL

That what’s so curious about greed it usually only applies to the other side. Lol

Catching good numbers of fur is not greed as long as it is not done to the point of harming the resource-then it is greed.

with our limited number of trappers anymore i have to believe it may be beneficial for certain species to have large numbers taken.

Thanks guys for straightening out the greed thing for me.

We should have celebrated when Wall Street and the other too-big-to-fail entities were bailed out while middle Americans lost their homes, jobs, healthcare, pensions.... Because that's what built America.

So let's all come together, liquidate our assets and bail NAFA out of this mess. Let's face it. They're too big to fail too. And when they have more of your money, we can all smile and celebrate their overseas buyout, knowing that it was the American thing to do.

Greed is good!

All Things That GO UP MUST COME DOWN

Yep, that's what THEY tell us.

I thought Boasting was a sin?

somebody miss a pill?

sorry thats my new catch phrase.

If they are making good money, That would be greed. If they are losing money or making peanuts, then I have a different word for that behavior.

So it supposed be early next week, as announced of what go be go on with wild fur at nafa?

I heard from a reliable source that things will be happening next week at NAFA. No indication if it will be good or bad, so we will have to wait and see.

Same with fur farming. If the money is there why not expand the herd.

Your example of Wall Street getting bailed out is a good example of what can go wrong when the markets aren't allowed operate freely.

Larry, it's unfortunate that country buyers lost money and possibly their business but that is the of this business works unless one has a direct market and even then it can be very speculative.

Is it? They got greedy

After all isn’t greed a simply equation of ambition and effort guided by knowledge?

The tricky part is balancing the risk to rewards.

It’s all about outcomes.

No

intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

Yeah, I was being a bit too snotty and sanctimonious.

But greed still sucks.

Kinda like the $20,000.00 bit-coin.

Another new email today. Not looking good, no guarantee there will be a 2020 wild fur collection

Just got new email too!!!

Hope mine arrives soon - curious to see what it says. Any body care to post it here?

October 26, 2019

Dear NAFA Wild Fur Consignor,

Our discussions with SAGA to collaborate on a wild fur collection and sale continue, however there appear to be hurdles that may be difficult to overcome. At this point in time, we are not in a position to guarantee a wild fur collection in 2020.

We are disappointed and saddened with the current situation and remain steadfast to find a viable way forward for our loyal and dedicated shippers and buyers. We will keep you informed of further developments and more details on paying outstanding prompt payments from August as they arise.

We are very sorry to all our wild fur shippers for this unimaginable outcome.

Sincerely,


Douglas Lawson
President & CEO

ruh roe raggy

View this email in your browser
My Account | Auction


October 26, 2019

Dear NAFA Wild Fur Consignor,

Our discussions with SAGA to collaborate on a wild fur collection and sale continue, however there appear to be hurdles that may be difficult to overcome. At this point in time, we are not in a position to guarantee a wild fur collection in 2020.

We are disappointed and saddened with the current situation and remain steadfast to find a viable way forward for our loyal and dedicated shippers and buyers. We will keep you informed of further developments and more details on paying outstanding prompt payments from August as they arise.

We are very sorry to all our wild fur shippers for this unimaginable outcome.

Sincerely,


Douglas Lawson
President & CEO

Well that is that. It appears the folks on trapperman have been right on the mark this whole time.

I thought we were told we didn't know what we were talking about and the truth would be told in 72 hours? Now 48 hours.

Obviously no money in wild fur at these levels. Or the “cost of acquisition “ is too high.

Saga is likely monitoring trapping threads.

You were "Grain Binned".

w

As I've been warning you all for the last five years..............BOHICA !!!!!

w

I'm sure paid up WFSC dues for years beyond 2019 will be refunded as well

does this make the free dvd's collectables??

I hear a large lady going ME ME ME warming up to sing the final song for NAFA. Once SAGA gets all their ranch fur clients it's Kay Bar The Door! Just hope everyone gets made right before it happens.

wow , what is about half the trappers and fur buyers going to do with out them ? seriously it's not good for wild fur.

DID SOMEBODY SAY FREE ?

w

Almost spit my coffee out!

No more Free DVD's.

No more International Trapper Magazine.

No more Drumming Fees.

No more Cities fees for Otter and Cats.

No more Fire sales.

No more Private treaty.

No more Fur advances for Coonman220 !!

It's all over but the crying.

If you listen real close, You can hear Herman Jansen drifting away on his golden parachute.

BOHICA.

w

BOHICA X2

What the heck is BOHICA?

Bend Over Here It Comes Again

That would be four times .........if my math is correct

That’s the best post yet on this topic.

What about the small handful of wild fur still laying around in small piles?

Thanks Boss.

Sad really. You can love em or hate em, but they were a staple in the fur industry and promotion of the use of wild fur. When you see what happened in California, whats happening in other states, certain fashion outlets deciding not to sell fur garments, etc, I truly fear for the future of trapping. Here in NY 10,000 licensed trappers, only 2000 in a good year are members. I hear the same from other states. CA regulated the heck out of the trappers, weakened the ranks, and put them down for good. It will be a model to eliminate trapping. Last thing we need is to lose a fur outlet and supporter. I've always felt that trappers will perservere, no matter the obstacles we face. I'm starting to feel otherwise, starting to feel what was always dear to me is finally, in jeopardy.

You mean golden parachute style like D.B. Cooper?

.......yeah with a bounced check!

I just can't figure out why so many people on here to find joy in this.

To the average trapper Nafa couldn’t do no wrong, but people in the know know the underhanded things they have done. IMO they may have done more harm to wild fur then good in the last 20 years

Its flyby night fur buyers or guys that likely never dealt with nafa for any length of time,and /or don't sell much if any fur.Pot stirrers.

No good will come of losing this big of a market player

............. bingo!!! how right you are!

What market, unless it’s coyotes or fancy western cats there is no wild fur market. And you can sell those items anywhere for same money

If NAFA makes it right with every person they owe money to then I will think differently. Bottom line. Businesses fail all the time. Plenty of other buyers or other markets out there.

Fur markets have been around for long time !! sometimes high most of times low..
nafa is a co operative owned by members... socialism at its finest !! ceo walks with the money and patrons eat sand !!!
Wild fur will always be a commodity .... someday not sure when it will be high again.
Might be when the green climate change people are burning tires around campfire to stay warm !

Thanks. What is chapter 11 liquidation?

Walleyed-
Shouldn't you be sitting in a canoe today and chasing after muskrats instead of waxing so eloquently about NAFA's demise...? I always enjoy your canoe and rat adventures every year (truly do) and I've said you should compile all your tman posting of those trapping threads into a book. Now, with NAFA being belly up for wild fur, you can add a chapter on how you predicted it and how you would re-order the North American fur buying world. I'd buy your book in a heart beat!

so what's the big deal an issue about me getting a advance ???? Like I only one??? Like I cause this????, Why should my name be even mention ???? I guess ppl on here always got be picking on someone an if everyone notice the ones that do it an location from, I just a real small trapper

"BURN, BABY, BURN.........Racoon Inferno.........

BURN, BABY, BURN........ Burn that Mother Down" !!!

w

I think he's just poking a little fun, coonman, its not a personal attack. We need something to make this deal a little brighter!

Your right,

I should be checking rat traps right now. Rat season started Friday, the 25th.

Unfortunately, I am dead in the water.

My Season ended before it started.

Monday afternoon I was preparing to wax the last of my #1.5 victor stoploss

and was hooking up a fresh, full 20 lb propane tank to my trap boiler.

Bend over to get the gas hose to hook up the tank,

lost my balance, and went down arse over tea-kettle.

Dragged my leg across to Top valve guard on the tank,

and sliced all the skin off my left shin from my knee to my ankle.

I'm on Blood Thinning Zarelto and 81mm asprin and I started bleeding out.

Hopped on one leg to the house, called a buddy to take me to the Medical clinic.

I am now at risk of severe infection due to chronic diabetes

until the wound heals and skin integrity is intact.

i have to get it disinfected, dressed, and wrapped everyday,

and I'm on a high dose of antibiotics

No trapping or hunting, or getting the wound wet unless I want to risk a peg leg.

So here i sit at my computer, a demented and bitter man.

w

Sorry Coonman220,

I did not mean to offend you.

I harbor no ill will towards you whatsoever.

I apologize for mentioning you name in my post.

sorry again.

w

dang i wanna be a smart arse but even i aint that mean.heal up young man.i'm gonna give ya a run for your money this year.

Yup,

That's a good,accurate way of putting it.

w

I may have mentioned him about advances but only in my sick, twisted way of praising him for possibly being one of the few that may have got one over on NAFA. I apologize for that.

I know NAFA automatically signed me up at the start of 2019

for another five years ol Membership in the WFSC.

(So thoughtful and responsive of them to do that.)

Then NAFA disabled my online account so I could not

opt out of another 5 year membership.

(I don't think I've shipped to NAFA since 2014 or 2015)

Since I might not be able to trap rats this fall,

How wilI I be able to reimburse NAFA for

my 5 year membership ?

Hope they don't charge me accrued interest !!

Oh The Horror !!!!

w

tried to take wfsc fees out of a fur check for me. I called and said no. had not been anywhere close to 5 years since the last time I paid it. they did say they would unenroll me but then the check bounced. wonder what will happen to the raggedy handful of my fur they still have?

How many country fur buyers depend on NAFA? Are They still going to buy fur this year if they don`t have a outlet,

Good point, one I have been wondering about myself.

i think so,or should i say-i hope so.

i've been asked by 2 buyers i've dealt with before that were wondering if i was interested in puttin up fur if they got behind or something happened.kinda a back up plan this year.not much but first call like that i've had in 5 yrs.

i believe theres money out there but i don't know how willing most are gonna be to use it.

Well the smart ones don’t, I gave up on the auctions nearly a decade ago after I learned all the dirty underhanded things they did. Creek I’ll be all over sw Kansas looking for coyotes and plan on being as aggressive at as we can

Walleyed-

Sorry to hear about your accident and underlying health issues. I truly hope you heal up just fine, maybe it is time to work on "Walleyed's Trapping Adventures and Thoughts on the World" (I'm sure you could come up with a catchier title than that!). Your point of view is always interesting to read!!

i wouldn't miss it and i'd probably be able to add some trappin pics and adventure stories for ya.

I just start my subscription at $100 to wfsc in January early, it was expired, my advances all long pay back

I was kind of hoping someone got one over on them (nafa).

Thanks NonPCfed,

I think I'll live but no trapping rats on opening day was a real downer.

w

So the 72 hours is long gone and it sounds like the people on here knew what they were talking about.As the only think from up north is they won't be buying wild fur and to pull up a chair and wait.

I guess this means the fur we all have at NAFA won’t be shipped back to us and we shouldn’t expect to get paid for it either. Shipping fur has always been a gamble. This time we lost.

27 and no.

I wish what I have up there was a raggedy handful, still have 6 good cats waiting.

......careful boco you might need them flyby night buyers!have you heard the latest on FHA?l told you months ago nafa was going under !!! You just laughed and said C+T and nafa was the great thing and the way of future lol

I have a bad feeling about where our wild fur market Is headed.
I talked to some people at NAFA today and they are still not saying what's going to happen to all the unsold fur they have.

I predict, NAFA will private treaty the remaining wild fur in their warehouses to Groenwalde and use the cash as severance pay to themselves.

They will sell it and the bank will get the money

Dealers are able to retrieve the goods they have at NAFA IF they are in their own lots. That might not be good for prices this upcoming season.

Could be if they owe lots to bank, that they keep it, so fha auction agents give advances ? I was looking at there sale results, not as good nafa, but depends on what kinda fur u got, I can't judge results by looking online. I have ship them , do they have $100 club, so no freight charge an 9 per cent commision. ? Who would be best head person at fha to contact. ? Local or us receiving ? There a local one. Or used be anyhow, that also buyer, i knew years back a little, about hour away, I know the us receiving guy better in wisc from conventions at he used work nafa

ya can't make it up folks.

i think its a good thing,hope i'm right.

On any fur sold, NAFA only has the rights to commission and fees on the sold fur. NAFA not the banks could take the money due to the sellers.

Where it's headed? It's been there for few years already.

The other day he said we were in the crapper, so I would guess the next place is the septic tank?

we's at the leech field Dirt.your at the tank.

Sent email to 2 fha places, no reply yet, I know little of them, no response back gives me negative feelings, call maybe, I don't know much of fha

They will tell you just what you want to hear.

How could it be a good thing? Many country buyers depended on a auction house for an outlet. Some of them may shut down too.

And lots of NAFA agents are now with out a job. Those agents also put up a lot of fur that the trapper didn't want to deal with. So know there Is going to be lots of green fur that some one Is going to have to deal with. It's a slippery slope we are know treading On.

FHA is probably getting swamped with emails and phone calls from trappers who previously used NAFA. You should give them some time to respond.

Keith

Maybe a little, I doubt that much, nafa is the who getting swamped with calls. I email them to, not heard , awhile back I emailed. Before all this, was told this all rumors, bussiness as usual but the Nafa letters now

Coonman not trying to be mean, but if your emails are like your posts, I'd call. I'm not sure they will even be able to answer your questions. I know I couldn't. Good luck!

Coonman, i got email back and u fill paperwork out at yr first pickup for fha.

Here is a link to a press release that FHA posted on their web site this morning.

https://www.furharvesters.com/pdf/pressreleaseOCT28.pdf

Sounds like they are well prepared for the upcoming fur season. Now if only the fur market would improve.

Thanks for posting that information wissmiss. Using the links provided in the letter I was able to look up the nearest FHA agent to me and it turns out he is only about 40 minutes away, about the same distance that my NAFA agent was. It’s good to have options.

So nafa is definately out ? I try find out if fha give advances or how much for advance? Long wait till there sale from end December until prompt date. I sure there is 2-3 week wait after sale for check

SAGA, who is taking over NAFA's farmed fur business has signified they have no interest in wild furs. Beyond that, it would be insane to trust NAFA at all this season. I strongly suspect a lot of trappers are going to get badly screwed by NAFA.

Keith

NAFA is not accepting wild fur for the upcoming season. It remains to be seen what will happen in future years. At least that is the way I read it.

Coonman220, if you are so concerned about advances and the long waiting period, why not sell to a local buyer. You walk in with your pelts and walk out with a check. No waiting. No second guessing what the market will be doing in March. With your section coon, you should do well selling to Groenwald or some one else locally.

Seems like a no brainer to me. I don’t understand why you are so set on shipping to an auction.

I haven’t shipped to NAFA for several years coonman. I found other options for selling my fur. It is good to have as many options as possible for marketing your fur. I may or may not use FHA in the future but it is good to know that there is an agent within 40 minutes of me. I agree with Keith above, you would have to be an idiot to ship furs to NAFA at this point. I’m glad I stopped shipping to them several years ago or I would be in the same boat as so many other trappers right now.

As far as advances go, I never took advantage of them when I shipped to NAFA. I simply waited for my furs to sell. Sometimes, like everybody else, I waited a very long time.

I just got email from fha, they can give advances, but as a rule, they do not, I not sure what want to do, groenwold likes wire stretch, I have boards, auctions may pay more for coon

Wood vs wire - doesn’t make that much difference in the pelt when it comes back from the tannery.

If you figure in all the costs of selling at an auction, I don’t think pelts bring that much more, especially in a down market.

But to each his own. I’m sure you will figure out what to do.

Dave I have sold thousands of board stretched coon to GFW. Both spots are good places to move coon. LLL

Or they MAY not!!

The other nice thing about selling locally is you can decide to sell or not based on the price offered. If you're set on shipping your fur somewhere, you can ship it to Groenewold and they will contact you with a price and if you dont like it they will ship them back on their dime I believe. I have a GFW pickup 10 minutes from home so i never tried shipping.

You may want to seriously consider them if you're worried about waiting for payment.

Seems to me that capitalism could work here. Guy has fur that needs put up and there is someone that still needs a job putting fur up. All they now need is to call one of many fur buyers who will be interested in buying them or they can ship to FHA or any state sale. NAFA was not the only outlet for fur for Pete's sake Beav. Also this way everyone will most likely get paid without waiting for a bad check so they can wait to hear all the lies about your check being in the mail.

Are you still shipping to them now beav? LOL, LLL

I shipped for the last selling season and my check was good.
I have a outlet for some fur but the rest may go to groney. I sold some fur to him last year and was happy with my rat prices.

And there may be a new buyer setting up a route here In WI. But It's not a done deal yet.

Well, at least Boco can count on the government to pay subsidies. Heck, may even get a bail-out!

Not true Dave. They use wire but I have seen a lot of boarded coons sold through them and Gary Groenwald specifically pointed out how great they looked.

How much money do you require in advances to feel you can trap?

Rick Hemsath is probably an hour drive from you (Rowley, Iowa)and a good guy. He is a FHA agent. Groenewold buys all kinds of put up fur on wood. Know what you have in fur and an idea what you are willing to settle for. Cash check, no bounce. Don't like offer, walk with fur. Have it put up so YOU are in control, not 100 thawed coon hides.

Coonman it might be a good idea to sell some of your catch local and ship some to FHA. That way you get some operating money and can test different markets to find out your new comfort level.

Sounds like good idea, don't sound like advances are common at all with fha , keep the mink, beaver an big better coon , maybe ? I heard somewhere or reading that groenwold likes wire stretch only, some pelts come with flaws other than skinning or knife cuts, with board, u can pin it shut, stitching is harder to do, which would have to on wire stretcher

Groenewold will be my place to sell. NAFA is done with me.

If I had gotten a bad check or had lots goods left there. I would have different feelings

Nafa is officially closing it’s doors Oct 31 it’s done

Does any one know what is going to happen to the fur they have in their buildings.

You might want to google Chapter 11 liquidation. Google bankruptcy of a consignment company . It don't look good.

Coonman you can slide a wooden mink stretcher in a wire stretched coon to pin a hole shut.

Well everyone knows things are not good but I missed that. Where does it say doors closing Oct. 31? Do not see on NAFA site.

im waiting on them to make my check good like they said they would. supposed to get sorted out in oct. still got a couple days. I dont believe that company was run by deadbeat liars. at least I wont believe it till thursday

You are out of luck like the rest of us minus Beav cause he was a company man and got his money. LLL

The Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum is the only other place I've seen this posted.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=371053

I read in an earlier article on NAFA that being a Canadian company chapter 11 isn't an option beings how it is an American Legal avenue. In that article it was somewhat laid out how a Canadian company would go through the process. I cant exactly find the thread as there are several million NAFA threads going right now. Maybe the writer of that or someone who is aware of Canadian laws on that will chime in.

Coonman it has been stated on here that Gary has said its not worth the time to board a MUSKRAT. Nothing else. To which I added the joke of forcing your young ones to run a rat line and just amass a huge stock of them. Hope that clears things up.

"The equivalent of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy in Canada would be either a Division I Proposal or a CCAA filing. A Division I Proposal can be filed by either a company or an individual and a CCAA filing can only be filed by a corporation with a very large amount of debt.
These two options are meant to provide both individuals and businesses with the opportunity to settle a portion of their debt. These options also provide protection from creditors while a company or individual works to regain their financial stability."

So it is a fact that nafa well not be receiving wild fur for 2020 or any sales ?

Sure looking that way Coonman. Time will tell

I have been told by a very reliable source that NAFA is out of the wild fur business. End of the line.

A no word on what happens to unsold fur they are sitting on? Kiss it goodbye I suspect.

Once the banks and courts get involved, it will take them quite some time to figure out everything that is/was going on at NAFA. It will be months, possibly a couple of years before everything is resolved.

Although it is possible that the bad checks will not be honored, I think it is too early to say that for sure. There should be announcements along the way to keep everyone posted on what is happening.

You’ve got multiple groups of people involved

- shippers that sold goods in August with bounced checks
- shippers with unsold goods that are intersorted
- dealers with goods in their own lots
- brokers that haven’t been paid their commissions
- mink ranchers that sold goods but still owe money on their production loans
- buyers that bought goods in August but only paid a 35% deposit
- receiving agents that haven’t been paid
- NAFA employees that are owed wages

Everyone of the above groups is going to want a piece of the pie.

Lots to figure out.

in laymans terms,BOHICA

i got ya Walleyed.

In chapter 7 bankruptcy, a creditor might get pennies, the bank trustee in the bankruptcy court, sells any non exempt property an keeps most of it for his fee. On $1000, u might get nothing to a dollar back , this talk on here, remind me of bankruptcy talk , just like where I work, it just happen like that

No advances or not like give them at fha, the next alternative is groenwold. Is he accepting possums this season ?

I have a big problem now. What do I do with the left over Fur bags?? I suppose I should return them. They may need them to haul the left over fur in storage to the incinerator?

You guys all talk about Chapter 7, Chapter 11, Chapter 13. Those are all US bankruptcy laws. Nafa is a Canadian Company, US laws don’t mean diddly. You should brush up on Canadian law if you want to be informed and try to figure out what is going to happen.

We all know what is going to happen. It already has happened. It happened the day they wrote the checks. In American court the civil side might not be a few at the tops biggest concern. It is possibly criminal. LLL

I did. They are similar. I can't find diddly on consignment goods though. A court basically divvies up everything. You gotta make a claim too. If you just wait for somebody to give you something, it don't appear that will happen.

I was told that you will get your fur back It might be 6 months to a year. Ungraded fur that's not already In the system might be sooner.
Nothing was said about the bad checks. Lots of things still being worked out so I don't know all the details of how this Is going to happen.
Don't start beating up on me I'm only the messenger.

The Beav, NAFA first said they were going to send out good checks by the end of Oct too. I would not put much faith in what they are saying at this point. It pretty easy to tell someone what they want to hear when you are locking the doors in two days.

The Final Fire Sale

To return all the unsold goods that are intersorted will be very expensive and very time consuming. Easy because of the bar codes but it still takes man power to pull bundles apart, separate, ship, etc. I’m not sure the bank/lawyers will be willing to spend the money necessary to accomplish that. Might just be easier to have a sale.

Details will be coming out slowly over the next couple of weeks.

When I called Toronto this afternoon, they still had some one answering the phone.

Why don't the nafa routes still run but deliver to fha?

There is a fee for getting ur fur back, it stated on your paperwork along with other nafa rules of sale

I not giving up hope on nafa until it is posted a letter from them, saying that no more fur sales. An more. As far as I know, everthing on here is rumors except nafa letters which sound bad

"I not giving up hope on nafa" that with out a doubt is the wackiest statement I have read in the twenty years I have been on tman.

use them to ship to FHA

stale and unsellable.

Not the case. Fur kept in a climate controlled environment can last for years with no problems.

How long do you think they will climate control under bankruptcy. I think wissmiss is correct. Too costly. kiss them bye bye.

Im sure threatening them with a class action lawsuit for stolen goods would get some attention. Maybe Im wrong.

Who is going to organize and pay for a class action law suit?

Terry and LL. BFF's

I don't know but go fund me exists.

On a typical class action lawsuit, lawyers get 85% to over 99% of the settlement.

http://www.triallawyermoney.org/attorneys-fees-in-class-action-lawsuits/

Keith

The cost of shipping them back would break them. Ohh wait, they're already broke.

I think that hiring a lawyer or setting up a go fund me account for a law suit would be throwing good money after bad. Trappers could very well end up,losing more money than they already have.

It would probably be best to wait 2-3 weeks and see what happens after the banks and their lawyers get involved. Once they have had time to fully assess the situation in person, they MAY make an announcement about what will happen to the goods at NAFA. Or they may not.

Only time will tell.

let em write the postal system a bad check and see what happens eh Hippie?

Yep

So I hear that NAFAs rental Winnipeg facility has told them to be out by the end of the month. Sounds like they are 6 months In the rears on rent.
I'm glad I have no fur at NAFA.

Are you still believing your NAFA contacts that told you the trapperman people don't know what they're talking about Beav?

Let me take this opportunity to reiterate what I have been saying for quite awhile.

BOHICA !!!!!

w

Did you know that the Winnipeg facility was closing? See I told you so. LOL

Well no, no I didn't. Lol

And I just got the word 5 min ago that everyone at the NAFA facility In Toronto has been laid off and the doors will close on the 31st. I'm assuming that the NAFA facility In Stoughton Wi Is also closing as of the 31st.


Are the going to turn off the hydro?

Too bad.
Just another nail in our coffin.

If they turn off the power - so much for cold storage.

nah Nancy,it's about to be real cold storage in a month or 2.

Beav said "6 months in the rears" …….Ehhh EhEhhEEhhE……(Beavis and Butthead laugh)

Has any one seen in writing on official NAFA letterhead that they are closing tomorrow (October 31).

Lots of people, including Beav, have said “they heard” or they “have been told” or “they know for a fact” BUT that doesn’t make it official.

I want to see an official announcement in writing before I believe it.

Insolvencys in Canada

Check here in about a week.

That is in a week. I’m talking about tomorrow.

I don't know that NAFA has to notify the creditors. Here is a good site that explains the process for people looking to get paid, or your fur back.

How to get your money and possible trust property back

I don't see how anyone can believe anything any of them say

Good luck with that. It's like squeezing essence from a skunk that has none.

Email from my NAFA agent;

By now, many of you have read NAFA Communication’s email that was sent out this past Saturday stating, “at this point in time, we are not in a position to guarantee a wild fur collection in 2020”.

I just finished listening in on a teleconference with NAFA this afternoon. They notified all of their collectors, receiving agents, that they will not be renewing our contracts. Additionally, NAFA will not run a “wild fur” collection or auction this season. They will be “winding down” their corporate operations over the next months and year.

Therefore, I will not conduct pickup routes for the 2019-2020 season. I know that not everyone utilizes electronic communications, so I ask that if you know of anyone else who has used these services in the past please pass on this information. It has been my privilege to serve you over the past two years and with John since the 2013 season.

Because I’m using my personal email account, I am limited to the size and quantity of emails that I can send on a daily basis (500 per day). It normally takes me two days to email everyone on my list. I hope to provide more information over the coming days.

I understand that there are many individual and specific questions. You are invited to contact me by email with your questions and I will reply.

Regards,

Wes Anderson

Thanks for posting that. Says that NAFA will be winding down their operation o ear the next months. It does NOT say they are closing tomorrow.

Big difference between closing the next day and winding down over months.

I’m NOT saying it isn’t going to happen tomorrow, I’m just saying I want proof positive.

Guess I will call NAFA on Friday morning and see if any one answers the phone.

You DARE question the seeing all knowing all Beav? Not sure what he's going to do with his NAFA pom pom's now though, guess Groney can get him some of their's made.

Has anyone contacted Savell to let him know the Canadian Casino has gone broke?

Only the one J-Trap'
The other Canadian Casino seems to be picking up speed.

Dennis told me that he was now informing each and every NAFA agent that their contracts would not be renewed. As far as I know he started yesterday.

From what I was told all the ranch mink graders are now unemployed at NAFA Stoughton and all the Hispanics have left for warmer climates. The office staff Is still In place as of yesterday. And Brian McMillan Is on vacation what ever that means. LOL

I bought fur that was sent back to trappers, when North Bay went upside down. Maybe NAFA should ought to talk to Don Rumsford about reorganization. He went through the North Bay fiasco years ago. Look at What North Bay did. They managed to buy and then pay for their building.
I bet Fur harvesters is having a bit of a , ( what will we do if we get a lot of business from NAFA) I don't know, but I doubt that Fur harvesters has the facilities or man power to handle the amt. of wild fur that NAFA has.
There would be a million things to do, to just get ready for the sales and notify the clientele as to when and where the sale would be at. Maybe Fur Harvesters should step up to the plate and take over the NAFA facilities. They could just kinda slide right in and be the fur Kings. One never knows, things do happen.
I would think that NAFA should have already contacted Fur harvesters, about selling the fur that NAFA has on hand.It wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world, but it could be pulled off. I think this would be a better option than trying to ship all the fur back to the NAFA shippers.

tomorrow is the last day of october

I doubt if anyone answers Nancy.

During the conference call Rob talked about the "nafa family" I reminded him that nafa just put 90% of the family up for adoption.

It was the Trappers and Fur councils that sent money and fur to save the OTA(FHA).UOI got on board and invested big also.
Also a lot of trappers sent fur for a sale not knowing what was going to happen.This was all held secret from the bank trying to foreclose.Truckloads of fur came up with Mark Spencer from Michigan,and also I believe from NY.North Bay never forgot those commitments from the American trappers for that first sale that helped save the company.
The building on Bond st which was owned by OTA had to be mortgaged,and I was at the big party when FHA burned the mortgage and paid back all the trappers.Fur councils in Ontario and the UOI with interest for the money given to save the Ontario trappers auction house,which became FHA.
At that time Nafa was working with the bank to try to make OTA go under,that is the root of the animosity between FHA and NAFA.
Over the years many of the graders have switched back and forth between the two.Some started at Nafa and went to OTA/FHA and some started at OTA/FHA and went to NAFA.

I could be wrong but I would guess the people in the know at NAFA had an idea they were in serious financial problems before the had the last auction yet they had no problem taking and selling the "family" furs knowing they might not be able to pay the "family" for them. I dont buy all their excuses.

If I was FHA I would wait for the estate sale. Gotta figure that fur Auction equipment will go cheap. I definitely would not run up debt in this market. Ask ALC and NAFA how that worked out.

I do think this is bad for the overall market, but where they loaned out money like a bank, except on promises not collateral, banks did some of that happened here in the 80’s farm crisis, I feel they did it to themselves. I do think it will affect Canadian fur sellers more than U.S. sellers or at least here in Iowa because of lack of delivery points for me NAFA an FHA pickup points are over 2 hours away and groenewold is 20 minuets away. I don’t know how the Canadian auction laws are but it maybe impossible for them to sell that fur at FHA because the sellers weren’t notified before they shipped.

Have seen this before where North Bay Fur Sales was left out of the evolution process of OTA going down and FHA coming up out of the ashes. Was not North Bay Fur Sales in between the two for a couple of years? I seem to remember Donnie Craig was the CEO. I don't know/can not remember the details of what was the difference between OTA and North Bay Fur Sales. And then I think North Bay Fur Sales "burned" and FHA actually came from the ashes of that. Is that how it went? U recall Boco?

Yes for a sale or two there was Northbayfursales.I believe that was NAFA and the bank trying to take over.
Ron Lancour was involved I believe when it was Northbayfursales.The trappers wound up getting it back anyway.

Does this mean I won't get my 'possums back?? LOL
Sheeeesh - what a mess!!

Well its the last day of Oct. Mail is up here about 9-10 o clock. I'm not working today so it wont be a problem to go to the post office and get my mail. Any chance the folks at NAFA that told the secretary to tell folks they would make bad checks good in Oct., were not lying?

I was told they would be issued "around" the first week of November.

Zero Chance,zip ,noda, nope. It gave them time to close the doors without the pitch forks came out. It is over and our money is gone. Sooner we move on the better. LLL

has anybody tried to check thier nafa account It wont even let you log in . I think we are all screwed if you have any fur left there or a bad check , which i have both

What are you on the hook for Larry? The boy and I are down 176 reds plus a check. Lotta time and effort.

That's good advice Larry and I will take it.

I was told your fur will be returned. I don't see how that's going to be accomplished but that was what I was told.

Beav - it seems like NAFA tells you a lot of things that they don’t tell any one else. Why do you suppose that is?

It is also interesting that of all the NAFA shippers on Tman that sold fur at the August sale, you are the only one that posted that your check did not bounce.

I, for one, have a difficult time believing anything you post that has to do with NAFA.

I was very fortunate that my check was good. What I’m hearing, my check was one of only a hand full of over 40 shippers that use the drop off I use. What I was told from the big pow wow they held yesterday, it’s a bleak situation. If they find help it won’t be from a bank, it will have to be from a private investment group or individual, IMO.

He hasn't eaten enough crow yet I guess

My small cheque for leftover fur at the NAFA august sale did not bounce.

Well guess what another good check has appeared I guess Jarrett must also be lying . I could name another 5 shippers from WI that had good checks but you wouldn't believe me. LOL

if he was callin your house every ten minutes you'd tell him what he wants to hear too ta get him off the phone.

It all started going downhill when the beav jumped ship and sold his rats to groany.

Sorry about that Boco.

You want NAFA to tell you their future plan? If they give up control to a trustee or receiver, they have no control of their assets. The companies decisions and future will be in new hands.

[/quote]

What are you on the hook for Larry? The boy and I are down 176 reds plus a check. Lotta time and effort.[/quote]

Sorry to hear that. I am not that bad off. The reason I was not was because I saw 4488 getting nervous all of a sudden last year, When he started getting sketchy I knew better. This has been a long time coming. I hope I am wrong on this but I bet we are screwed. LLL

It sounds like the Ratwagon is headed your way Boco, better stand back when it first arrives to make sure it's not full of hungry American water trappers!

"Q. I have consignment goods on the company's premises, how do I get these goods back?

A. You will need to submit a property proof of claim form (Form 74) to the Receiver which details the particulars of the property and provide evidence of a consignment agreement and ownership of the consignment goods."

receivership frequently asked questions

Any additional outlets for marketing trappers fur is a good thing in my opinion.
When I started trapping we had fur buyers at the NW co store in nearly every small town.
If there was no NW store there was a private buyer.We also had a travelling buyer that made the rounds just before Christmas,and we always had the two Auction houses.
Lots of towns had skinners that put up trappers fur for a small fee as well.
Times change in the fur business,like anything else and the prices of pelts fluctuate greatly up and down over the years.I have trapped thru several big crashes and also some phenomenal high prices.There are opportunities to be realised by those who stick it out when prices drop and other people give up on the trade.There are some really good fur producing traplines vacant and there for the taking right now.
It is not the end of the world like some think.

Have to agree with Boco...
Besides, I'm looking into investors right now for my possum bikini business... (Provided I get them back from NAFA) LOL!!

i'm goin with weasel hide member warmers myself.

Sounds like"Naughty Bit Furs" will be next year's fashion must have.

my check didn't bounce

My direct deposit was good.

What's the fur promoters game plan? Last time the former Soviet Union and China were the plan. Got some fur out of the last hole, for a few years. Europe is banning everything and the U.S. market is never gonna happen. Seems like the plan is cheap fur for cheap garments coming out of China. I don't see decent money in that?

Maybe Warren Buffett will step in. Didn’t he always get motivated when there was blood in the streets?

Hudson Bay built an empire on being fur dealers. Then the auction system came along and caused this collapse. I suppose Hudson Bay knew the new model was flawed.

And dirt continued cheap fur trends will be our demise. The producers carry the load and get left behind.

I stand corrected on Beav being the only person that did not get a bad check. Several others have stepped forward and indicated their check was good also. Probably just a matter of timing. Direct deposits were paid even before checks started hitting the banks.

Dang Nancy you're one of the few on here that ever owned up to a mistake! The rest of us just argue till we forget what the question was ?!

Figured I would make that post before Beav had a chance to say “told you so”.

I beat you to It. LOL

Well guess what another good check has appeared I guess Jarrett must also be lying . I could name another 5 shippers from WI that had good checks but you wouldn't believe me. LOL

Maybe Miss Wiss will comment on this. How much fur does Moscow Hide and fur buy?

And wasn't it wissmiss who said all the negative rumors were just rumors?

Wild fur trappers didn't break the company, that leaves management and or the ranchers. Management must have floated huge loans to producers or possibly other entities.

I was calling nafa out 3 years ago for financing the flood of ranch mink. I quit them 4 years ago, for that very reason.
Glad I did.

Reminds me a lot of the old adage "Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered"

Bryce

Ya all be sure to thank a FHA shipper for supporting a trapper owned auction house thats keeping the wild fur trade alive, over mink ranchers. And those of you that didn't support them at all, should be ashamed of yourselves.

Because they WERE rumors! No one knew what was really going on, but that didn't stop us (including me) from speculating on zero evidence. Just because the negative "rumors" turned out to be closer to the truth than not, doesn't change the fact that they were rumors.

Nancy was one of the few (the only one?) who took the more prudent approach and waited for more solid information - such that it was - before shooting. Good on her!

Someone said they were at fur school and talked to a NAFA employee and the truth would be out in 72 hours and the people on T Man didn't know what they were talking about.

Sorry Rex but I agree. Most people on Tman only express their opinion. thats ok! I do that too Right now there is no truth from nafa.

If you think your fur will be returned please dont turn blue in the face. If you think you can even go get you fur, that aint gonna happen either. Is there an attorney among us? We need a class action suit that does not allow nafa to sell YOUR skins unless you get the proceeds. Somehow their plan is to sell whatever they can and try to get off the hook.I think if your fur gets sold and you dont get the proceeds they have broke the law. There is no pie in the sky. Demand to be paid for your skins when sold. We all need an attorneyon our side and there is enough of us to afford one.

Can't pay James if you don't have any money!

Id not hire James to fix a flat tire.

He doesn't do tires. However, if you suffered a neck injury due to a faulty tire, well.........he might be your guy!

I talked to someone today who had their Nafa check bounce, and they have little hope of getting a good one to replace it. Or of getting the bank fees covered. What Nafa did, or how they ended up where they are...... I don't know the background story and kinda doubt anyone does other than a few that are in the middle of it, just my humble opinion.

Cheap fur only kills fur farmers and business trappers.

I find it amazing that they bounce checks and still can have a sale in Helsinki like nothing happened. I believe in the US we have laws against that. I wonder what foolish ranch mink seller would consign with NAFA now. except the ones in debt.

Did they all get paid ?

There's something somewhat disturbing rumor going on with saga and nafa on Facebook. If true, I'm glad my check couldn't buy a pint of bait as it was a few holdovers and a few low grade stuff left up there.

If NAFA doesn't give me back my 3 possums......I WILL LOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hardly any one has facebook around here, what is the disturbing rumor, is it one we've heard yet.?

NAFA will not have a sale in Helsinki. Saga Furs has completely taken over the ranch mink and do not want anything to do with the wild fur operations. Basically NAFA is done with both Ranch and Wild fur.

I expect a News release tomorrow or Monday to do with all of this.

LOL. I don't know very many people from here that are not on facebook,

If this post references what I think it does, Terry mentioned it earlier. Fire sale tomorrow, with NAFA intending to keep all the proceeds.

Where are Facebook are you seeing this, I'd like to take a look see.

X 2

Maybe this question has been asked but what happens to the 2 lynx cats i have up there? They are $500 cats all day long.

The lawyers and the bank and NAFA are still discussing what to do with the part Lot fur. It has been said an announcement will be made the first part of next week.

At this point - who knows.

You are not alone - lots and lots of other trappers are in your situation. Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

I'm with ya Bro, got 6 select 1/2 cats sitting up there

Kinda of what I figured. Nafa has been great for me for alot of years. It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

Yep, no complaints over the years, just a bad situation.

To be quite honest, I think the chance of shippers with part lot goods at NAFA have no chance of getting them back. Hate to say it but that is the way I think it will play out.

At some point, those part lots will be sold. I have no idea who will get the money.

Do I win a prize if I guess correctly wissmiss? Same people that got my 3.00 for two nutria's that sold 8 years later. Never saw a dime of that money, nearly lost my house over it, lol.

Latest e-mail from my agent;


This is a summary of Tuesday’s conference call, with the receiving agents from across the US and Canada, with Doug Lawson (CEO) and Rob Cahill (VP). Roughly seventy five percent of NAFA operations is ranch mink and twenty percent is wild fur. There is no separation of monies - all income is in one pot and all expenses are paid from the same pot. Ranch mink operations and unpaid auction purchases have hurt the company.



Here is a summary of that call:

1. NAFA no longer exists as a functioning fur auction operation. SAGA (European Ranch Mink) will now market what used to be NAFA Ranch Mink. NAFA Wild Fur will no longer exists.

2. A skeleton crew will remain in Toronto, Canada and Stoughton, Wisconsin to help with liquidation and closure (1 - 2 years).

3. Employees (outside of that skeleton crew) and receiving agents are terminated November 1, 2019.

4. NAFA's liabilities are with the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC). The CIBC has financially locked down NAFA and any income goes right to the CIBC. It will continue to do that until their liability with CIBC has been satisfied.

5. In order to reduce their liability, NAFA will liquidate their assets by selling equipment, and real estate. As well as, collect outstanding money owed for purchases at previous sales and collect from ranch mink farmers that are indebted or sell their notes.

6. Once the liability has been satisfied with CIBC, NAFA intends to private treaty the inter-sorted fur in storage. Inter-sorted pelts will not be returned to the shippers. Inter-sorted is what we have at NAFA - the pelt is ticketed, graded, and has become a part of a "lot" containing many more pelts of the same grade. Owners of dealer lots (which I don't handle) can make arrangements with NAFA to retrieve them.

7. Once NAFA has income without liability, they will establish an order of payment for their debts. First is shippers whose checks, from the August sale (plus any banking fees), that did not clear prior to CIBC freezing NAFA’s accounts after September 17th (see note below). Second is unpaid wages for employees and then commissions and expenses due to receiving agents. Nothing is expected to be paid out to anyone until sometime next year.

9. NAFA said they'll also update shippers via news on their account pages. Apparently, some part of the website will remain in operation.

10. I do not know how the Wild Fur Shippers Council will handle the requests for a pro-rated return of membership dues. Stay tuned.

11. NAFA has plans to resolve these matters; the bankers, lawyers, and courts have their plans too. We will see how it plays out…



Note: If you have a NAFA auction proceeds check that was “returned to maker” or that you have not yet cashed or deposited please notify me. I have no way of knowing, unless you have told me. I will try to provide those of you in this situation updates.

As I said long long ago now, ranch fur will be the death of the fur trade in the end. Now that they have their market's established
screw the wild fur bunch, they are on their own.

I doubt any money will be left for shippers after all is said and done, be nice to know what amount they owe the bank.

Interesting to me if they can legally sell fur to pay debts.

It doesn't explicitly say they will, but I wouldn't put it past them . (and the bank)

I wonder if anyone has scoured their shipping agreement for details.

I find the contrary statements interesting. Everything lumped together, prior to liquidation, till SAGA stepped in. By leaving the wild fur did they leave the liability?

Q. I am interested in purchasing the Company's assets, who should I contact?

A. You should contact either the Receiver and/or the Trustee (if one has been appointed) to determine who has the right to realize upon the assets. You can also check this website for information on the sale of assets.

I got the word on the 24th that the SAGA deal fell through and NAFA was going to be liquidated. They were just B.S.ing trappers after that date.

Since Saga wanted nothing to do with the wild fur division to help us out,maybe we should start working with the anti's to crush the factory farmed fur,as opposed to happy and healthy free range wild fur.

Their advances got us in this mess as far as I'm concerned!!

I'm sure they left the liability.

The class Action Lawsuit looks a lot better idea than doing nothing. That was one of the first things I thought about when my checks bounced. I did say checks not check.. I am with Terry on this matter if it is the correct way to proceed. We might even own a share of NAFA.
There may have to be some kind of lawsuit between the wild fur council members and NAFA also.

....brilliant ideal!!!! I hope it works better than C+T did lol

C+T is more important now than ever in the fur industry.
We are lucky to have it in place.

This whole NAFA thing has a bad smell to it....I have no fur up there, but they really threw trappers of WILD fur under the bus on this one. I personally believe you and Terry are spot on . Somebody find a good lawyer.

[quote=Boco]C+T is more important now than ever in the fur industry.
We are lucky to have it in place.[/quote/].......yeah lol

And so goes trying to appease the anti's, once again. NAFA led us all to believe that if we just went along with certifying this and that, all would be rosy. It was a distraction. Trappers became a burden to the selling of NAFA backed ranch fur. They gambled on the fantasy that fur prices would just keep going through the stratosphere, and they, (corporate pinheads), would cut a fat cow.
Now, everyone loses.

I shipped about 75% of my fur to NAFA since 2005 and felt that I did well by their auctions for the most part. When this started to unravel there were so many wild comments from many of us on this forum and elsewhere. I received memos from NAFA that have turned out to be very contrary to the outcome stated above. It really does not matter much now if there was unwillingness to state the seriousness of their situation or they did not know how deep of a hole they were in, but we can all see now how this played out. From my experience in working with foreclosures and bankruptcies in the past 2-3 months is an extremely fast closing which to me means that NAFA may have been having liquidity and collateral issues some time ago and by that I don't mean months. I have read many of the post and find many of the forum responses to be disturbing even with the outcome we have.
I am grateful for those firms and individuals who have maintained a very professional and helpful approach to helping all of us move forward and find new outlets for our wild fur.

Bryce

You really don't understand how important C+T is to the industry unless you sell finished fur articles to the public.I explain it to customers all the time and it is easy with wild fur.
Thank goodness FHA,our only wild fur big international auction has Furmark(their C+T) in place.

I have as much interest in trying to appease the animal rights crowd as I have in appeasing the no private firearms crowd. C and T is just another step toward having people that cant skin a dressed chicken bought in the grocery store, make the rules we have to abide by.

I am not letting idiots in Europe take my constitutionally recognized right

I agree

..........nothing more than smoke and mirrors! I understand the advertising end of it very well! just tell them what they want to hear and they will buy it.

^^^^ hogwash,If you think its about appeasing antis your an idiot.
It is about our customers.Antis don't buy fur and it would be a waste of time trying.

it is not about appeasing antis however they do lie to comsumers to!...you just cant grasp that can you!! nafa smoke and mirrors for consumers, but let me guess nafa never lied to you either!

NAFA know how …… to become over-extended and hope for miracles.

There is no space on a Balance Sheets for miracles.

I done allright by NAFA,they made me a heck of a lot of money over the last 40 years.
Sad to see them fold.

...............oh I understand why you post what you do, it fits YOUR AGENDA but go head and throw all the other trappers under the bus!

I don't throw trappers under the bus.Half my time has been volunteering on the federation(with other outstanding trappers volunteering their time) fighting for trappers rights and working with government to make sure Ontario's trappers have the best trapping system in the world.-You know nothing wallfur.
While most jurisdictions in North America are losing,Ontario has been steadily gaining for trappers year in and year out.

......really ?do you call restistered trap lines with aiths restricted traps dictated by the anti trapping cummonity in Europe a good thing? you cant gain to many more trappers with limited trap lines and traps with no market for fur!

This here maybe the dumbest thing I have ever read from a so called trapper. A trapper says to work with the anti’s.

Registered traplines put the trapper as the front line conservationist.The best trapping system by far.There are no limits on the number of registered traplines that can be worked by a trapper-no limits .Some of the improvements Ontario's trappers have realized due to the work of the federation is 600 sq ft trap cabins with ancillary buildings,as well as 400 sq ft line cabins,no limits on cabin use,even in the off season,also 5 million dollar liability insurance coverage,extended seasons,One of the best trapping education programs in the world,with trappers administering not only the course,but also licencing and data input under contract,and many other improvements for our trappers with more coming each year.
The traps we use here are state of the art and improved all the time.Tested to be humane on the animals as it should be.
Humane trapping (and trap testing)was implemented in Ontario for the betterment of the industry by trappers starting in the 70's,not antis nor governments.
We can use more types of traps here than you can in the states.And nowhere in Canada is trapping banned.There are some states where you cannot even trap and getting worse each year.And many others where you cannot use snares or bodygrips.Not so here.I guess you have thrown yourself under the bus.
Like I said before wallfur-you are clueless.

..... why didnt you answer my question ?is it a good thing to appease the EU? that is why you are doing all that nonsense you just stated about ? lol ! you don't have to tell me what you use I already know...as far as throwing myself under the bus I wont have to! trappers like you have already done that!

You are thick.Dont understand English?
Why are you asking me to repeat myself?

Class action lawsuit is meaningless in this mess.

just so you have to reread what you posted boco! lol maybe just maybe you will see you do not make sense with all the I am the best rhetoric!!! you do nothing but blabber

That was a fasecious statement 99,hitting at the ranch industry that basically led to the demise of the wfsc.Dont tell me you are thick too!You are a rancher aren't you?-The enemy now of wild fur.

My question is, why would SAGA take on the hot wet financial mess which NAFA is currently in? What will they get out of a corporation which is about to become completely liquidated and gone from North America? It doesn't make any sense.

But they did bail out the ranch sector-and cut the wfsc loose.

Just trying to educate you on Canada,wallfur,obviously you have no clue about trapping in Canada.
I find it funny how some of you Americans like wallfur think you know so much about Canada and trapping here,when likely you have never been on a trapline in Canada.
Probably haven't even been to Canada,lol.

I gotta go skin,I'll be back later for your next lesson.

I think all SAGA did was tell the mink ranchers send your mink to us we will try to give them away. Maybe they paid a little money to get the mink ranchers agree to do this, but why, what real choice do the mink ranchers have since NAFA is no longer an option. I suppose they could try Kopenhagen. Funny thing is, I got this strange feeling the North American mink ranchers are about to find out how it feels to be the red headed step child.

Boco time to take another holiday and keep these guys wondering ; : "where's boco" Their simple minds need some entertainment once and a while.

Lessons will not help this crowd.

They need to get out on their traplines and do some serious master baiting.

Just think of all those Russian girls from the Polish mink facility of NAFA coming to NAFA Wisc to work in the plant and replace all those Mexicans.
What you boys in Wisc going to do now?

In order to reduce liability nafa will sell equipment and real estate. Obviously they feel there is no chance they are getting the money they put out back. No or little mention of what broke the place, only liability. Company auctions on commission basis, charges both seller and buyer, and some how ran out of money. Any liability associated with mink ranchers should fall on saga, not trappers.

I'm back,skinned 3 beaver and boarded one.
All in fun.

Going to tan those beaver or send them to auction?

Chris

Chris,I ship the xl and up (no dmg)to auction.Small ones(not many)tan myself and the rest go to Winnipeg tannery.I make articles like hats ,mitts,and blankets,and also trade some up north for beadwork,which I sew into mitts.
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Very nice to market your furs as value added products! Make better money I bet!

Chris

Keeps trapping a money maker in times like these.People really like beaver fur as a utility article here.It is also a traditional fur used in this area because of its durability and warmth and it looks good.

Saga gets the opportunity to sell some of the best mink in the world. Plus they get the the labels. Labels like Blackglama are highly valued in the world of high fashion.

No one really knows all the details of the SAGA/NAFA agreement.

Brought up a good point Otis, how does a company that charges both seller and buyer end up going broke? Have to be a real idiot to lose money with that set up.

I don't get why they mailed those checks. Now I'm out a bad check fee too. Hard to believe the bank waited till they were mailed to tell nafa management they were going to bounce them. Even harder to believe that nafa mgt could not email people telling them not to cash or deposit checks. That alone should show the character of those involved to anyone interested. Wonder where they will pop up next?

Well said Danny. About sums it up.

I have no dog in this hunt but if I did I would be finding attonery in Madison, Wisc by Monday to get a court order to freeze the assets in Wisc. before they leave the states.

And who Is going to feed that Lawyer?

Boco, you are a master at equivocation but not very good at making it stick.

Furmark's position on certification and traceability of wild fur is nothing like the NAFA’s trademarked – and now defunct – Certification and Traceability program.

Here is FHA's position on certification:



Here was NAFA's Certified™ Wild Fur requirement (aka "NAFA Certified™ Ethical Sourcing Terms & Conditions"):



The two could not be more different. Furmark doesn’t have a trademarked wild fur program that requires trappers to “declare their intentions to fulfill the requirements for fur certification and agree to the NAFA Certified™ Terms & Conditions”. Furmark respects the sovereignty of federal, state, and provincial rules that are in place – NAFA’s trademarked C+T program did not.

NAFA was pushing for a one-size-fits-all C+T program that they controlled based on the Canadian AIHTS model.

This is the one bright spot in NAFA’s demise. U.S. Trappers at least now don’t need to worry about declaring their fealty to a corporation and the European Union’s AIHTS agreement in order to sell their fur. In this sense, the Antis were just dealt a blow, a pretty big one at that.

Furmark is C+T,no different from all other C+T throughout the industry,only differences is how they are implemented by each company.
And in either case,our decision to force the Europeans to sign our international agreement on humane trapping standards instead of banning fur 25 years ago has been great boon for trappers.
Look at how restricted you are in the States when it comes to trapping due to antis compared to Canada which has no provincial trapping restrictions at all.
Our use of internationally accepted humane trapping standards has done us very well in having the public accept our industry here,and is a big part of why we have much less restrictive trapping laws here than you have down there.
And you being from Maine,preaching to me is a joke.You need to start doing something to help your own trappers.We are good here.

"Saga Furs and North American Fur Auctions (NAFA) have today entered into an agreement to work together to secure a stable selling channel for NAFA’s farmer customers both in Europe and North America. Utilizing its strong financial position Saga Furs will start financing some of NAFA’s farmer customers with immediate effect.
With this solution Saga Furs and NAFA aim to remove the recent uncertainty and provide farmers the possibility to sell their 2019 production through Saga Furs’ auctions. The combined offering will create the most versatile collection of different fur types available for the international market. The agreement is expected to substantially increase Saga Furs’ volume of high quality mink in 2020."

no one else is gonna say it i will.....Bohica

That saying was old 10 years ago.

well excuuuuuuuuse me.

Boco you keep saying how we're more restricted than you are. I can guarantee you the opposite is true as far as my state goes.

Angela,you can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

How many days can you go on a trapcheck?

Only one, but if you went any longer than that down here, your fur would spoil anyways. Are there ANY traps you are not allowed to use? There's not here.

If nafa is broke trappers filing a lawsuit is almost a waste of time. Any proceeds from sales will go to secured creditors which we are not. The banks will get their money first which may very well be in the millions. If they have no money a lawsuit doesn't get you any money. You can't get blood from a turnip. I lost approximately 70 thousand in a deal similar.a company owed us for work completed and the state seized their property for unpaid taxes. The state and banks got all of the proceeds from the liquidation and I didnt get anything my lawyer was involved in the proceedings and advised me that they owed so much money to secured creditors that there was no chance that I would see any money. He said I could pay him to sue them but it would be a waste of money.

I just checked your regs yote.you got all kinds of trapping restrictions we don't have here.For example-you cant set traps within 100 feet of a road,your snares and bodygrips have to be half submerged,traps have to have tags,,and a bunch of other restrictions we don't have here.
The only trap we cannot use here is traps with teeth,and that is irrelevant as those traps are obsolete and have been for many years here with the development of better footholds.

Every jurisdiction is going to have common sense regulations depending on human population density humaneness,to the animal etc.
The fact remains your trapping activities in the USA are far more restrictive and in fact outright prohibitive compared to here.
Americans are definitely in no position to preach to Canadians about trapping restrictions.We are golden here when it comes to trapping freedom.Thanks to generations of trappers that came before us like Ralph Bice,and Alcide Giroux,Frank Conibear and many others who spearheaded humane trapping 50 years ago,that led to the standards we now enjoy here for the betterment of trapping in the eyes of the general public,whose support and acceptance we need to continue in the profession.

As I said Beav I would it does not cost an arm and a leg to file for a court order.

The entire season, here, (as to trap-check requirments).

I am still waiting to see how you think the closing of NAFA is going to help wild fur.

Why not a 4 or 5 season before you check your traps?lol.
Our regs state it is illegal to allow trapped furbearers to spoil-a common sense regulation.No time limit in the Patricia portion for footholds(North of the E/W CNR line,where I operate)because of safety concerns to the trapper and remoteness.Daily in other parts of Ontario for live holding tools.

Boco, this is your reality with regard to footholds today. It will be the reality of every Canadian trapper in the very near future. Here in Maine, we don't have anything close to those type of restrictions. In fact, we can use almost every foothold trap sold here in the United States. You cannot because Phase 1 and 2 restraining traps are now mandatory in Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick (see Note 1 below under PHASE 2 - RESTRAINING TRAPS).

https://fur.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Certified-Traps-List-FIC-August-1-2019-Eng-8-X-14.docx.pdf


https://www.ontario.ca/page/trapping-ontario

I'll simplify Angela's question. Can you use any footholds to trap marten? If not, that is what is known as a restriction.

Yotes question was can we not use any type of trap here-the answer remains just toothed traps.I doubt there are any footholds used for marten in mississippi either.Footholds do not pass our trap testing requirements at Vegreville alberta for humaneness for marten.This was well known by trappers.They are also much less efficient in deep snow country.It is also not humane to set footholds in trees where animals hang for extended periods of time before death.Trappers respect the animals they trap and do not like to see animals suffer.So this is not a restriction imposed by anyone,it is a choice of responsible trappers.
It is not a restriction when trappers gave up footholds for marten when we had the better more efficient and humane alternative invented by a trapper.We had it made law to protect the industry from Neanderthals.

I couldn't care less who has more freedom to trap. Kansan's where trapping is a right or Ontario whose prime minister swears fealty to a foreign monarchy. I just know I am not going to try and appease anti trappers. Yes people who are demanding C and T are anti trapping. Else they would accept that me and 99.9 percent of north American trappers are not interested in torturing animals. That we strive to give trapped animals a quick death and as little trauma beforehand as possible. That trapping IS humane and benefits animal populations as well as humans. The fact they want us to do stupid stuff like provide more information than a license # is proof they suspect we are barbaric sadists or something. I say they can all go pee up a rope.

How come I knew I was going to get a lecture?

I thought this thread was about NAFA going out of business. This C&T issue has been beat to death before. Same arguement from the same poster. Let it go!!

Could we get back to the original topic. It was more important.

That is not true.
Most of my fur customers have no clue about trapping,they just like the fur.
If they happen to hear anti bull--- in the absence real life information from the harvester how are they supposet to know?
I have a scrapbook of catch pictures,showing the humane methods we use,official harvest reports from many many years showing the sustainability of the resource and the lifestyle we lead and how we care for our traplines over generations.
Not all retailers are trappers.It is important to be able to prove to our potential customers who live in the city and have no clue about wildlife that they can wear and enjoy the fur articles that they love so much without being guilted by the lying anti garbage.
C+T can accomplish this by providing factual information about the fur industry to those who don't know or have any feelings one way or the other.
It does us no good to sit back and allow the anti lies to go unchallenged.We really need to get our side-the truth-out to the public.
Other industries have been successful in implementing Certification and traceability in the raw material-logging,fishing-agriculture in third world countries etc,all which comes under attack from antis,not just the fur industry.

Not sure what regs you're reading but they're not mine. Our traps and snares do not need to be half submerged. We can set 330s on land if we want and no restrictions on snares. They do need tagged though.

In Montana we have fairly relaxed laws. The only law pertaining to checking traps is that you must check them in such a manner that animals trapped are not allowed to go to waste. As for trap restrictions, nothing with a jaw spread bigger than 9 inches on dry land sets, and snares must have breakaway hooks. Footholds must be center swiveled and have a minimum of 2 swivels. Traps must be tagged.

Any further updates from Nafa regarding what becomes of the wild fur in their warehouse?

............no restrictions....none for usda,,,no mandatory trap check, no trap restrictions. m-44 and arerial gunning allowed, no bags limits no seasons.....but that is damage control work and that is where all trapping is headed if you and trappers like to continue to cave into the antis and organizations like the EU. you even suggested helping the antis crush ranch fur in an earlier post! brilliant!!! you have no ideal what free trapping is! don't forget to sew and knit the gueen some mittens so she will let you catch an extra beaver on your registered trapline and let your gov continue subsidized trapping!!!! lol as a gov trapper all I ever had to was put a USDA trap tag on trap and everything else was wide open!!!! I would reallyl hate to see all trapping come to that.

How did saga bail out mink ranchers? Basically saga took the blackglama name and said to the North American mink rancher we will allow you to sell your better mink with our poorer mink.

Most of you don't realize that a lot of mink ranchers are owed money too. Some up into the millions of dollars.

Nafa also invested a lot if money into Chinese fur shops thinking this train would run forever. Mink ranchers aren't at fault, it was poor investment decisions by nafa management.

I think the NAFA thing has been beat to death also. The people running it dropped the ball then lied about it. Next they lied again to the people who are owed money. I am 90% sure that all trapper fur will end up fire sold and the money will go to bankers. Don't know what else to say except I don't want anything to do with any future business any of them may get involved with

The NAFA situation is going to both help and hurt FHA.

Help - they will receive more fur than they did before this happened

Hurt - Trappers are going to be reluctant to ship fur any place where they loose control over it.

Country buyers and trappers sales are going to see more business because Trappers want to have cash in hand before they let go of their pelts.

NAFA and the banks and lawyers are supposed to make an announcement next week. I’m thinking it is not going to be what shippers want to hear.

I will let the statistics speak for themselves.
Canadian trappers are about 1\10 the number of American trappers,yet we produce half the fur in north America.Also no provincial bans on trapping all across the entire country.
Your lame arguments will never convince anyone who doesn't have a prejudice against Canadians that we are at any kind of disadvantage when it comes to fur harvesting.
I have no problem putting up good numbers of furs and use all the best tools necessary to do so.
And I agree with wissmiss,this subject is getting old.Trying to educate Americans about trapping in Canada is like trying to explain something to a Heinz pickle,lol.

Boco, you enjoy your system of trapping and we Americans enjoy our system of trapping. There's no need to impose either system on the other. So let's leave it at that. Capisce?

Boco - could you provide documentation that Canada produces half the fur in North America.

Half of what -
- number of pelts
- monetary value based on raw pelt price
- some other means of quantification.

Just curious. I like to see actual numbers not just broad statements.

Boco, here in the U.S. 10% of trappers produce 90% of the fur. Got a lot of kids buying a license, here in KS houndsmen hunt on the same license we trap on, got a lot of adults buying a license who just run a half dozen sets on the way to work, got guys trapping predators away from their chickens etc. So your statement, if accurate, is comparing apples to oranges.

Its in the fur management bible,wissmiss.
You must have acess to that comprehensive bible of the fur trade in North America.
I don't feel like looking it up right now.

2/3rds of the fur from canada comes from fur farming.

I’m not familiar with the “fur management bible”. Is that the official name of the book? If so, Ive never heard of it.

Must be something written in Canadian, which I don’t read.

There is only one book in the "fur management bible"----- The book of boco.

So what you are saying is the Board of Directors controlled by mink ranchers did not approve of these expenditures?

It gives percentages of animals by species between US and CAN harvests.



Anyone interested in professional fur management and conservation should be familiar with this publication.
Anyone with anything to do with the fur industry as a whole in fact.

"Wild Furbearer Management and Conservation in North America

1987 Copyright: by Milan Novak and others- This book examines all aspects of the biology and management of North American furbearers."

Maybe they update it?

Trapping in Canada is vastly different than trapping in the US. Most of Canada is a vast, empty wasteland. Canada's meager, insignificant population is mostly crammed up against the United States, like they are huddling to stay warm.



The United States is for the most part, in all the states but Alaska, a very well developed nation. Canada is mostly raw, underdeveloped, wilderness like Africa.

Keith

That was published in 1988.

It seems there are 2 conversations going on here. As regard to the NAFA issue. If they were taking profits from Wild fur to pay the failing fur farmers. Would that be considered a PONZI scheme...and is it criminal. ? and at what point is writing bad checks not criminal ?

There were 170,000 trappers in the U S the last time they counted way over half only trapped for a few days or weeks as a hobby. In Canada there were 60,000 to 70,000 most of whom made a portion or all of there income from trapping. Also the book you quoted is over 30 years old.

I need names to know who was on the board of directors to know if they were in fact mink ranchers. The final say always came down to Herman and mike. Seems mink ranchers owned the biggest share of nafa, but did they control the daily workings?

U better read yr 2019 trapping regs for snares. Boco is correct about having to be half submerged.

Saga has agreed to lend mink ranchers money and than let them sell under them. How is that not a bail out?
If not what are they lending them money for? Ranch mink and the ranchers sunk nafa. Seems like herman picked a good time to retire, also seems odd....

Kingrat is that your interview with CBC Saskatoon on NAFA ?

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjl787c1MzlAhWvUt8KHQ9iBnAQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fsaskatoon%2Fnorth-american-fur-auctions-can-t-guarantee-wild-fur-sale-1.5344486&usg=AOvVaw0g9OikWT8f2Yh18CQW4fcM

You can slice it anyway you want but the Canadian mink breeders and the U. S. mink breeders select people to sit on the Board somehow, someway and they should have veto power over the CEO. Unless the board just let the CEO make these big decisions, which again is/was a mistake.

Naw, I'm quite familiar with my laws.... those stipulations are in regards to traps set within 100' of the road, on private land. IF your traps are set on private land, within 100 feet of the road, THEN the snares and bodygrippers must be halfway submerged. Basically, they don't want coyotes dancing around on the shoulder of the road for every soccer mom to freak out over.

Nope

Boco, you can be a wealth of knowledge, then a "what-the-****?".
A 30 year old publication is certainly not relevant, today.
And wissmiss points out a very prudent point: are you talking value, (as in hammer prices, sans govt. subsidies that the states don't enjoy, total pelts produced for market at auction, total furbearer harvest, or what?

Another thing that’s interesting is how can a consignment company sell someone else’s property to cover their debt? What’s the banks obligation, have they no fault? I would think they knew the situation.

The bank is a secured creditor. Their obligation is to ensure that NAFA has the collateral to foreclose on in case things don't work out. I think they are doing this.

I'm glad that I'm just a sorry trapper. NAFA only got me for one leftover skunk that they sold in Sept. 2019 for 3,50 less commission of .39 cents. So if anyone starts a class action law suit please include me. I need that money its going to be a long cold winter Thanks Larry

Never met a banker that knew diddley about fur.

Its all there AV,and that encyclopedia of the fur trade is the best info available today.It covers the entire trade form the 1600's up to and including the 20th century
And yes the numbers are fur pelts.30 years is a short time in the big picture and would not change the numbers in any way.
If you don't want to look it up,give me a species and I will look it up.It gives the numbers of fur pelts in percentage between Canada and the USA.Some species obviously are produced more in the usa but taken overall Canadas trappers produced as much or more with 1\10th of the trappers.
Here are a few.This is for the 20th century when fur was booming compared to now.
Racoons are harvested in numbers 26 times greater than the Canadian raccoon harvest.
The Canadian fisher harvest fluctuated from 68 to 100 percent of the entire NA harvest.
The Canadian marten harvest is 68 percent of the entire NA harvest in any decade.
The American harvest of muskrats is 62% of the totals.
The Canadian beaver harvest fluctuated from 55% to 72 % of the totals
The Canadian harvest of otters was Dominated by Canada before 1970 with 51 to 66%,after 1970 USA has produced 54%.
The Canadian harvest of cats is between 86 and 90% of the total NA harvest.

That is just a few.

when you say cats your only talking about lynx then? what about coyote harvest?

Coyote was dominated by Canada earlier in the 20th century at 66% later declining to less than 20%

Bobcats nearly the same percentage but for the US.

weasels-70% Canadian

Skunks 89% American

red squirrels near 100% Canadian.

Hurt - Trappers are going to be reluctant to ship fur any place where they loose control over it.

Country buyers and trappers sales are going to see more business because Trappers want to have cash in hand before they let go of their pelts.

No they won't wissmiss, several of us on here been telling horror storys of NAFA and how crooked they are/were for 20 years, trapper's just kept
shipping to them year after year. They might sell local this year but by next all will be forgotten and they'll be back shipping here and there.

I see enough awards handed out at trapping events every year that lets me know trapper's have very very short memory's.

Been saying the same thing, and agree with everything you said except people forgetting in a year. In a years time there will only be Fha and they will only handle so much fur, not likely to give advances so less incentive for trappers to ship. I think there will be a monopoly on a few items, coon and western cats specifically

I have a credit for October auction proceeds. Anyone know what that’s from?

...and who gathered all this data?

Wow how far off the track do we get in a couple days? If fur related firms have the same attention span of those they serve it is no wonder things go south.

For every mile of road there are 2 miles of ditches and unfortunately we seem to spend a lot of time off the road.

Bryce

So do I. Looks like some private treaty sales have occurred. Interesting that they are still updating financial statements in Novermber.

Boco, are you being serious or just trolling everyone here?

You realize those harvest numbers are over 30 years old and only represent harvest percentages for the years reported at the time the data was collected. In other words, it can only provide harvest statistics and trend data for the time period(s) reported and cannot represent harvest totals or trends into the future. It's simple logic.

That data certainly has historical value but is completely worthless for telling us anything about fur harvest totals or trends today, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 25 years ago; in fact, those statistics were dated -- not reflecting the most recent harvest numbers -- at the time of the book's publication....by definition. A book of that size (nearly 1200 pages) takes many years to complete. The production process itself -- the editing, proofing, typesetting, printing and so on -- can take years before a book ever reaches retail shelves.

This is the most bizarre claim that I've ever seen you make.

That book is the Bible. Nothing before or since even remotely comes close to so comphrehensively covering what it does about American and Canadian furbearer biology, trapping methods, marketing, grading, history and on and on and on. It was compiled/coordinated by Milan Novak whom I had the pleasure of meeting a few times back in the day. Numerous Canadian and American authors contributed to it. It is so big it should have been printed in 2 volumes - mine is coming apart as the bindings can not take frequent referencing. 1150 pages and the print is on the small side.

Some of the info. may be a bit dated but much of it is as true now as it ever was. I doubt anyone soon will undertake such a daunting task as to try to compile a second undated edition.

Very true Frank,an excellent source of reference for all aspects of the fur trade.
One of our members on here,Gulo, is a contributor in the mink section
Mainer-that book is the bible of everything to do with the fur trade.
The records of harvest in there are comprehensive and cover all the harvest records from the beginning of the fur trade in North America,including of all the fur companys operating in the USA in the 18oo's.
The records I quoted are for the 20th century when the fur industry was at its peak.
It would be safe to say that there are far less producers in the usa now than there was then,especially with all the trapping restrictions you have now.
I would say Canadian trappers numbers are less also but not near as much percentage wise since registered traplines are still being worked for the most part,and vacant lines get scooped up.

reminds me of Wayne's world

we're not worthy,we're not worthy.

Look! Squirrel!

Yes, it's a great book, but fur harvest numbers reported in a 1988 publication however great (or biblical) it is have absolutely nothing to say about fur harvests numbers and trends today.

The basic fact remains today that with 10% of the trappers Canada produces the same amounts of harvest numbers overall as the USA,that is the point all along,and with all the bans in your country today It is highly likely even more today in the 21'st century.

Of course he is trolling. We don't have anywhere near the acreage of marten , lynx and beaver habitat Canada has. We don't have direct per pelt subsidies that Canada has. The state of KS produces more coyotes and bobcats annually than the entire country of Canada. Like I said earlier "apples to oranges".

I have submitted documented proof for the 20th century.
My trapline produced more Lynx than your entire state-so what?

Anyone have a NAFA update?
Sorry if OT.

Hey Boco, I was all set to buy a trapline in Ontario about 20 years ago. Untill I began researching requirements for a trapping license. Found out I could buy the line and cabins but had to hire a Canadian to trap it. Open trapping up to U.S. citizens and see just how superior Canadian trappers really are

do your own research boco. your the one making ridiculous claims

My claims are documented in the fur bible.
There are Americans trapping in Canada.
You likely couldn't survive a winter in Canada let alone produce quantities of fur here,lol.

I was going to find out if that was true or not boco but apparently you Canadians are scared of me

Soooo you guys wanna talk about nafa or everything else that comes to your mind?

You are experiencing the ripple effects after a giant falls

Might as well. From my understanding NAFA no longer exist to the wild fur producer.
On average, when the market is good, how many beaver does a Canadian trapper produce in a 5 month season?
Using the 5 month season because that is the length of Arkansas's beaver trapping season, excluding nuisance work.

There are several US Customs officers that have RTL's in Canada, work 5 days and get 9 days off to trap, just have to work in an airport.

NAFA. It was an auction company that marketed fur. Managers were charging buyers and sellers both a commission along with other mandatory charges. Yet they still managed to bankrupt the company. Even wrote checks without funds to cover them. Somehow no one has been arrested for that. Other outlets for trapper goods have been scrambling to get the market share NAFA had. That goose is cooked.

One of the potentials caveats of using your "bible" for trends now in then U.S. is that for much the 20th century, numerous fur species were still recovering over that time. You go back and actually look at some of the harvest numbers for say beaver is the U.S. for say 1940s though 1970s and they tend to be low. Same thing with species expansion. Coon where still making their way west and north in the Upper Midwest/Great Plains and coyotes still making their way east and south. I suspect that there are more beaver, coon, and yotes in the USA now than there ever was in the 1980s. Trapping technologies have also changed. Just look at what dp traps have done for coon trapping among other things. I don't think you ever did qualify if your "10% Canadians outproducing all of USA" was in the value of the fur or sheer number of animals. It makes a difference what is being said. Your marten distribution advantage alone could heavily impact overall value of the fur catch.

But whatever, if you want to believe that your noble 10% of Canuk trappers catch more critters than all trappers in the USA, keep believing it. Your winters are long and there's plenty of time to keep smoking that bong...

Yup, Im tryin to figure out if they opened the gates and let people already start buying goods for pennies or not, or if there were just a few pt sales. I’ve got an October auction proceeds credit but no way to find out what sold. Does anyone have any info on that.

Y’all can start another thread to figure out how many beaver you can catch in Canada in a season and if your traps are legal and if you can trace em to make sure there legal and if you have the right license or on your on trapline etc.. kind of what I was getting at there

https://thefurbearers.com/the-issues/trapping/canadian-statistics

According to this Canada produced 47340 coyotes in 2009. I don't have Ks coyote numbers by year but we produce an AVERAGE annual harvest of 80,000.

Bobcats harvested in 2009 were 1770 for the entire country of Canada. I can't get the bobcat pelt tagging report for KS to load but it is normally around 5000.

Beaver habitat? I trapped In Ontario and the beaver habitat was pretty slim. Now If you want to talk about beaver habitat lets talk about the South. With bit of work In 2 months one year my partner and I caught 386 beaver and 82 otter along with some greys and reds and cats.

I just dragged out my US Fur Harvest Statistics Book for 1970-1995.

1970 (Squirrel) 821,520 Michigan produced all those squirrels. In 1982-83 the total was 783,710 Michigan was still the only state that reported.

1970 (Weasel) 8,544 US total catch.

That's why I was wondering about how many beaver the average Canadian trapper produced in a season. To catch a 100 beaver in a season in east Arkansas is no great feat. I just couldn't see how someone having to deal with trapping beaver under ice could compete with open water trapping through 98% of the season in beaver rich territory. Now if we're talking fur value that's a totally different story.

beav how did you get licensed to trap in Ontario?

Welcome to the 21st century!

Let’s all take a breather, and remember that the entire fur industry doesn’t revolve around Ontario.

Contrary to what some believe.

Alberta exported 42000 plus coyotes on average with 3000 licensed trappers per year. Last 5 years.

Even with out nafa. It’s business as usual here.

Looks nice out there this morning.

beautiful day here too,snowy cold,lets get this thing goin weather.furshop is about 80 and traps to be worked on while listenin to the radio.NAFAwho.com

I think it is raining and I have a pack of bald eagles killing my beaver/ and or holing them up. Got a picture of a 60" beaver the gang probably killed yesterday. Bet this stuff ain't in the Bible.

l

LOL ….Can't help but think Boco is trying to distract everyone from the task at hand...Which is....Did the fur ranchers rip off the trappers and get away with it.

what facts could possibly be stated about NAFA that have not already been hashed out in the last week 47 times each.

the handle done broke on the gravy train,accept it.

Did you not read my last post, I’m fully aware of the whole situation, as of 2 days ago I have a fairly large October auction proceeds credit to my account which either means they sold a few cats or they opened the door to anyone who wants em with no bottom end. Do you have anything for that? That’s my question

You made me look at mine and a cat sold and is credited to my account for Oct. I'm sure they are scrambling to raise cash and we'll never see any of it.

I had a friend I trapped with. We actually went and talked to the M&R and got their approval. But I couldn't take any critters home. Well they did let me take home a Marten and a Lynx. I guess I was considered a helper.

I feel the same ,,,looks beautiful out this morning.
It was a place for guys who had low grade fur a place too sell . For anyone else it was nothing but gambling.
Never sent a thing north In 50 plus years of trapping.

Yep I just got the truck loaded with colony traps and 160s foot holds and DPs. Headed out tomorrow to catch some coon and rats.
No Idea what the coon will bring but the rats are going to bring a $10.00 nose count and If I sell them for $2.00 well It's going to be fun If I don't get froze out In 2 days.

..................there is no record of animals taken by usda or damage control in it!!!.those numbers are huge ....so how can you say that's accurate report? and it is way outdated!

Where’s coonman 220

Well,

Of Course They Did !!!

BOHICA !!!!

w

I believe it's the opening day of trapping season today

Question............

What options do you Canadians have for marketing your fur? Are there country buyer's like we have that are easy to get to?

How did ranchers rip off trappers? Someone dare to explain this one?

Wasn't NAFA majority owned by mink ranchers. ?

Wasn't the majority of the NAFA Board of Directors comprised of Mink Ranchers ?

Didn't that board of directors make decisions that bankrupted the company ?

Didn't these Mink Ranchers make a decision NOT to pay trappers

for their fur sold at Auction ?

Did these Mink ranchers not conceal that fact, and make up excuses,

withhold pertinent information, and string the trappers (victims) along ?

Is this Ex-company of Mink Ranchers now holding unsold trapper fur hostage

with no intention of paying for, or returning the fur to trappers?

I'd say regardless of how NAFA's Mink ranchers got to where they are now,

they certainly fit the description of ripping off trappers.

w

While it is true that mink ranchers owned a major portion of NAFA. They were not the ones making business/financial decisions for the company.

Decision making was handled by upper level management. They are the ones that made bad decisions.

In my opinion, only your first two question deserves an answer of Yes.

Yes
Possibly
Maybe
No
No
No

So the board of directors and WFSC had no say in any of this ?

They were oblivious of the financial decisions made by the CEO ?

When Herman Jansen was in charge, they didn't know what he was doing ?

Seems hard to believe that with many millions dollars of Mink Rancher money at stake,

nobody but Herman Jansen and Doug Lawson knew what was going on. Really ?

Regardless of who made the Decisions, The board of Directors owned the company

and the CEO's were their proxy to execute their wishes and business decisions.

Bottom line is this.

This Mink rancher owned company obviously gambled and lost big time,

and dragged Innocent, hard working trappers down the rat hole with them.

w

Then what of Fiduciary Responsibility? I don't imagine Canadian companies are set up so differently than US companies. It is the board who is financially responsible for the company. It is their duty to know what decisions the CEO and upper level management is making, and to replace those people if they are making financially irresponsible decisions. No, I don't think you can pin this solely on the CEO and other management. It is their job to manage, and it is the boards job to make sure they are doing so correctly. The board is who is financially responsible for this mess. Technically, a good lawyer could go after the board members personal finances to pay back those that NAFA owes, even.

I thought NAFA went under because anti's got to their primary lender.

What have all you American armchair trappers been blathering about while I was out trapping?

I was out eagle viewing. Only 11 eagles today. Must be running out of beavers. I should hire them out for ADC work.

been milkin the dog ta feed the cat.

Hey PCR,I see bedsore bob came back while I was gone trapping.

I been out butchering a hog. Everything in the freezer now. Lard is rendered bacon and ham is in brine. Bacon gets smoked next weekend and ham the week end after. Its about two weeks to early to start trapping here. When we do start though a few hundred trappers are going to pelt more coyotes and bobcats, right here in KS, than your whole country will produce Boco.

had to tell the wife what i was laughin so hard about so she didn't think i'd lost it even more than normal.

Just got in the house after skinning some muskrats.....wow...this blog is still going?

Hey Danny,several thousand trappers here will have more fur than your piddlin little state produces in 10 years of all species caught and put up before your season even starts this year.

bet we got ya on possums.

Big deal! Without NAFA where are you going to sell all that fur. Are you going to flood the market at FHA?

Don't forget to thank CANADA goose for creating a market for your fur,lol.
Wissmiss,Why do you think the market will get flooded because NAFA doesn't exist?You think Trappers are going to catch more fur now that NAFA is gone?I don't follow that logic.
If you mean,can FHA handle more fur-that will be no problem.They handled way more fur at their North Bay facility 20-30 years ago,way more than they have for quite a while now.

Yes! FHA gave them a free pass on sending beaver a few years ago, because they have to harvest their quotas.

Watch out for the lecture coming soon out of Ontario.

What I don’t understand is the argument going on in this thread between certain Canadians and Americans. It’s pretty pathetic really, like a couple of chimps throwing poo at each other

Hey Dirt,

Please don't slander the good name of Great Lake Ontario

confusing it with that other Canadian province that BOCO guy hails from.

w

I'm sorry to interrupt you guys, but I have another NAFA question. LOL....Does anyone know how ( legally) a trapper can retrieve his personal property (furs) that are being stored at the Nafa facility.

"When a secured creditor wishes to realize upon a security interest which they have against a debtor's assets, they employ the services of a third party, a receiver, for the purpose of liquidating the assets. Such activities are carried out under the authority of the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, as they apply to estates of insolvent persons or bankrupts."

"
Q. I have consignment goods on the company's premises, how do I get these goods back?
A. You will need to submit a property proof of claim form (Form 74) to the Receiver which details the particulars of the property and provide evidence of a consignment agreement and ownership of the consignment goods."

We are screwed from what I have learned.

Thank You....Dirt....

I’m not sure that is going to be possible. There should be an announcement from NAFA/lawyers/banks some time in the next week or so. That should outline the procedures going forward, will be interesting to see what they say.

form 74

I believe (could be wrong) you signed your rights to those furs away when you put them on the truck. What's the fine print on your receipt say?

And like everything they've said so far, I'm sure it will be absolutely true.

That sounds like it’s up to the individual to file and make it known that Nafa has your property

Not sure if it’s good advice to hold and see what Nafa says at this point.

wondering why the bank 's name has not be mentioned?

Furs that are at you agents and not left their premises are being gone through and if you get a call, it is up to you to go get it.
F7 on the bar codes identifies you to the skins.

Make sure you check your email that is on file with NAFA. Many people do not check these that often and may have missed the boat. Some people are being called so don't block the call.!

Many agents have not been paid so be patient with them

The bank's name has been mentioned. Several times.

thank you for update north

One more mud slinging Canada -USA and things are getting deleated PDQ
keep it on the subject bozooos

no

Couple of NAFA questions if we can go back to the topic.

If NAFA was shut down October 31, who has been updating financial statements with October auction proceeds?

If there is no intent to pay account balances what is the point of posting them on financial statements?

NAFA is not completely shut down. They have a “skeleton crew” in Toronto and Stoughton to take care of routine procedures in the shutting down process. That process is expected to take 1-2 years.

My understanding is that at some point in the shut down process, the intersorted goods will be sold and owners paid. NOTE - that is what I have heard. I do NOT know for certain that is what will happen or when it will happen.

An official announcement is expected within the next week or so.

As I’ve said before, instead of panicking shippers to wait to get official information from NAFA.

So far as I'm concerned the phone call I made in SEPT when my check bounced was an official word. "your check will be made right in Oct. it was the banks fault"

Well its Nov and its not been made right. NAFA made a bad situation worse by lying. I don't know who told that secretary to tell people that but it sure enough shows what kind of people we have been dealing with. Im not interested in anything else they have to say or any business they may morph into or become a part of.

I’m not so sure NAFA was lying to you in September when your check bounced. I personally believe at that time they fully intended to cover the checks in October. Unfortunately things didn’t work out the way NAFA wanted. And now it is November, the bad checks haven’t been covered and it appears it could be some time next year before the checks MIGHT be covered.

I know that isn’t what you or a lot of other people want to hear but that is what I’ve been told. Unfortunate situation all the way around.

I keep thinking about a bag full of sandhill coyotes I shipped from here in ks that all got graded eastern. when I called I was told just because I was a couple hundred miles north and couple more hundred west, was no reason to think they deserved a better grade than what I caught here. Insisting that the grade was correct that just because they were pale and heavy in my eyes, and just because I caught them in an area known for pale coyotes, doesn't mean they really were. That I should quit complaining and accept that they knew best.

I didn't ship to them for a couple years after that. I also never forgot it. No, I'm certain they have no interest in making things right.

#1 BOZO LOL

Thanks Wissmiss

Does everyone not realize that 97% of what nafa has told us so far has been a straight up lie.

It would not surprise me that the bank in this issue wants NAFA to list all the values of fur on hand be that dealer lots or not as this will give the bank some idea of how much liquidity NAFA can create by sales. Also they can check to see if fur on hand was used as collateral when they were not owners of those pelts. It seems to me that the bank is concerned as a 1st creditor that there are not enough assets to cover the secured debt. I don't know if SAGA has taken some of the producer debt through NAFA and that is now "off the books" so to speak and they are dealing with other assets and liabilities.
Really a raw deal for the route individuals who were becoming NAFA contract employees and now set with nothing and maybe some or a lot of their own debt that they would use to help service customers.

Bryce

Ok.....come on it's more like 95%

I do not agree with this at all. I feel what NAFA has said, they felt was correct when they said it. Saying 97% of what they said is a lie remind me of the party that opposes the President. Maybe that why I don't like it.

what part of "it's the banks fault we will pay you in October" was not a lie MJM?

Seems to me according to form 74 you got a few weeks or so to make your claim. After that you may be SOL. Even if NAFA is not stalling for time, I would print one of those form 74s out, fill it out and certify mail it to NAFA to CYA if you really want your fur back.

In theory, the bank could sell your fur, take the money as the secured creditor, and put more unsecured debt on NAFA.

Yes
Don’t know
Don’t know
No
No
No
Get some real evidence and I will believe you.

Next time I'm in Iowa I would like to visit your farm, if you still have one. I think more like a mink farmer, apparently.

I agree 100% with MJM. Lots of things changed over the 6-7 weeks since this situation became public. And things will keep changing until this situation is completely resolved, whenever that might be.

Once the banks get in there and actually start dealing with the whole situation, what NAFA is saying will most likely change again.

It will keep changing, and not for the better, whether they are lying or not.

Sad deal for a lot of hard working men and women for sure!

Chris

I wonder if the King and Jester have warrants out for their arrests yet? The Mounties always get their man! Those Canadian Mounties also wear the best darn muskrat trooper hats made! Select heavy winter top dollar skins they are!

Well in the age of litigation this is interesting. Some might be interested to Google "North American Fur Auctions Wikipedia". Says NAFA went into recievership and some pretty strong words about the CEO's role in the company's downfall.

More: Google "Insolvencies Deloitte North American Fur Auction"

What a tangle - letters from Dutch tax authorities in the mix here too

The way some of it reads they really went out on a limb with certain mink farmers.

Whether we were lied to or not doesn't change the fact that some of us were left in a heckuva predicament with basically no recourse.
If after all the facts come out that NAFA went under by subsidizing ranch farmers, it's gonna really tick me off.

I haven't had the chance to go through them, but here's the link to NAFA's court docs, etc. -- bottom of page under CCAA Documents.

https://www.insolvencies.deloitte.ca/en-ca/pages/NorthAmericanFurAuctionInc.aspx

Some really good info, they owe cibc in excess of 30 million.

I read on another forum that they officially filed for bankruptcy today it comes from a fur buyer that would know

Anyone that still thinks mink ranchers didnt sink nafa maybe read some of those court files.

Right back at you mink99. Ditto.

How about YOU show me some real evidence that what you say

above is anything more than your unsupported opinion,

and I'll take it under consideration.

I don't have a skin in this game of flim-flam & bamboozlement

of hard working trappers but I have personally witnessed,

and called attention to NAFA's long history of unethical and underhanded

business tactics towards trappers, and towards FHA over the last 20 years

and lucky for me I didn't have fur consigned or sold by NAFA during the last

three or four years.

I really feel bad for those of my fellow trappers who were taken for a ride.

w

Holy Crap!

You do understand how the loan agreements worked dont you? Nafa would give out loans to some mink ranchers ( a lot of ranchers don’t need loans) in return the ranchers consigned the pelts to nafa. Therefore nafa had the pelts to sell and get commission.

Now as the price of mink tumbled, the commissions became less and less and the loans were never paid back.

So you can say because of the ranches going broke and not paying back the loans they brought down nafa. Problem is who gave the loans? Those operating on the financial side of things, like Doug Lawson, former ceo of nafa. Who is also not a mink rancher. I know another lady that worked in the financials who also wasn’t a mink rancher.

Bottom line is nafa mismanagement and greed, yes greed, sunk nafa. Not all these evil mink ranchers. As loans were given out to fur shops in China too

Nafa once claimed to have over $50 million cash to there name. Thing is this was actually rancher deferred money that nafa was paying interest on.

So that was a big fat nafa lie.

I think when people say the "mink ranchers sunk NAFA", what they really mean is "the people in NAFA overextending the company to provide advances to the mink ranchers sunk NAFA".... which is pretty much exactly what you just said.

.……..and took down trappers with them

Open up the "Application Record - October 31, 2019.pdf" file and read the subsection: "Need for DIP Funding to Fund KIT Loans". It begins on the 51st page of the PDF document. There's 658 pages to this document; I should finish reading it this evening.

Yes that's what I mean, had nafa not been a bank for the ranchers we wouldnt be having this conversation.

So if I am reading this right, the mink ranchers were still receiving money from NAFA AFTER the trappers' checks bounced???

Wow! What a mess. Taxes owed, paying mink farmers feed bills and in the middle of it all the board of directors trying to make sure they get their money when they have people that worked for them out of a job.But for those of you who still like them they are going to try and come out of this in a year or so. Just go and read it long but they knew this was coming.

Seeing as how nafa is owned 70% by mink ranchers I guess you could understand where all the pressure to do business how they were came from. Bottom line if the evil mink ranchers paid there loans back nafa would be ok.

You do understand how the loan agreements worked dont you? Nafa would give out loans to some mink ranchers ( a lot of ranchers don’t need loans) in return the ranchers consigned the pelts to nafa. Therefore nafa had the pelts to sell and get commission.

Now as the price of mink tumbled, the commissions became less and less and the loans were never paid back.

So you can say because of the ranches going broke and not paying back the loans they brought down nafa. Problem is who gave the loans? Those operating on the financial side of things, like Doug Lawson, former ceo of nafa. Who is also not a mink rancher. I know another lady that worked in the financials who also wasn’t a mink rancher.

Bottom line is nafa mismanagement and greed, yes greed, sunk nafa. Not all these evil mink ranchers. As loans were given out to fur shops in China too [/quote]
Seeing as how nafa is owned 70% by mink ranchers I guess you could understand where all the pressure to do business how they were came from. Bottom line if the evil mink ranchers paid there loans back nafa would be ok.[/quote]


The correct summation of this all is, honest Trappers in Canada and the United States were robbed by a number of unscrupulous people, and the Trappers are the ones who are paying NAFA's globalist debts, while many can not pay their own.

I read the pdf of projected cash flow through Dec.13 and none of the money paid out by the "Applicant" in that period shows anything to do with wild fur shippers. It does mention paying everybody at NAFA. Looks like the promise of making the bad checks good in Oct. and then in Nov. was a lie. How anybody can still hold up for NAFA is beyond my comprehension.

and.... carried on business as usual with another auction company.

while......dumping trappers as if they were part of the problem

I don't have skin in the game either but I sure do feel horrible for the trappers that got caught up in this. It's no different than any other scam. I doubt it started out that way and I suppose greed on the part of NAFA played a large role in it. The wild fur trappers no matter where they are were honest and believed that everything was fine and would go as planned. The company however knew what they were doing and to whom. The ranch fur industry played a part but not as the culprit. Yes the speculated on a market and the market went south. Those folks are in bankruptcy as well as they can't pay their bills either. Which means their suppliers that they bought from on credit are getting hammered too. It is a chain reaction. That's why it's called a pyramid scheme because when the one at the top pushes the eject button it all comes down like a house of cards with all the trappers and everyone else being the cards. The only unfortunate thing here is there probably won't be a proper investigation done to vet out criminal activity and non of the true scoundrels will be held to account whoever they are. SAGA buys up the ranch fur operations that they want which provides NAFA with some relief but when SAGA puts the hammer down on the ranchers they buy (who at this time think they are being rescued) by imposing their strict rules on them then they are going down too and SAGA wins. I'm actually glad that SAGA is not getting involved in North American wild fur. Again I hate for those that got stuck. I pray for all that they come out ok or better than ok. This is a good opportunity For all trappers to rally together. What these folks have done is despicable but no matter how angry we get it isn't going to change it. I understand venting though as sometimes I think we all do. I do believe that though they seem to gotten away with it for now there are two things I know. They have to live with it for the rest of their days especially when they look a fur trapper in the eye and sleep at night and somehow someway they will get in return what they have done to others. It won't happen at our hand or in our time table but it will come.

Very well put, turk.

w

They invested heavily in European production hoping it would provide long term dividends. Bad speculation. Most of their loan debt is tied up in Europe. Some of the USA listed loans amount are foreign owned-USA produced.
Also, if you knew how close some of the gone management was to the ranching sector, you might say they were married. Literally. Not that any of that matters now.

Not the business at all that Werner envisioned. What a sorry mess. My sympathies to anyone they owe money too: trappers, dealers, employees, etc. There were some good people there. Not everyone was a bad character.

What are all of you going to do with your fur now, support a locale dealer, ship to FHA, or support your state asso auction?

i'll still ship to Nafa

"Support" is an odd way of putting this. I always thought we were both supposed to make money on a deal?