One Shot

I have a question and I am certainly not trying to start an argument. I have hunted deer for fifty years and have shot, probably, seventy deer. I shot all but two of them with a model 760 Remington shooting 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt bullets. The other two I shot with a Smith and Wesson 500. Out of all those I have only had three go down with one shot. One was the first deer I ever shot. I hit him high, in the spine, and he dropped. One was hit in the front shoulders and had both front legs broken, so it went right down. The other I shot in the neck.

Almost all of the other deer were hit in the lungs, or the heart and lungs, with some of those shots completely destroying the heart. All of those deer ran. Usually only about 40-50 yards and when I walked up to them they were dead. I remember one deer that I shot at and it took off running so I shot again. After the recoil the deer was gone. I went up to where I had last seen the deer and there he laid. I grabbed its antlers, like I am sure most everyone does with a downed deer, and they were loose in the skull. I had hit the deer in the head with the second shot. But the thing is, when I gutted the deer I found I had broken his front leg, and hit his heart and lungs. When that deer took off running I didn't even notice he was running on three legs.

So my question. Where do you guys hit the deer to drop them with one shot? I often see people saying the animal never took a step, or it dropped in its tracks. I do not mean to call anybody out, I am just curious.

70,almost 70,or over 70.lets get that outta the way right now.

the neck

I am typically a heart/lung shooter and I would guess 95% of mine drop. I think it makes a difference if the animal is already spooked or on alert. Mine are shot from a tree stand and they never even knew I was there. I also shoot 180 grain but they are Nosler Partitions out of a 300 H&H. Other calibers they may run a short distance but are DOA.

I do the same as you, go for the heart/lungs shot. It’s a kill shot and doesn’t waste much meat. I’m OK with them running 30 to 50 yards before they collapse.

A spine shot will put them down immediately but sometimes won’t kill them. Same thing with a shot through the front shoulders. Both shots waste a lot of meat.

A headshot will put them down and kill them immediately.

I have never taken a headshot, too much room for error. That’s the same reason I don’t like neck shots but I have taken those on occasion when it was the only shot presented.

Follow the front leg up, at the top of the Scapula. Very Top. They Drop.

Does that get into the front end of the loin then?

I do the same, take heart-lung shots. The only neck shot I ever took was just like you, his head and neck were the only thing sticking out of the brush. I have never taken a head shot. The one I hit in the head was just a lucky second shot, while the deer was running.

More than half the deer I’ve shot with heart/lung shots I have been able to see or hear them collapse after a short run. If I don’t see or hear them go down I will mark the location it was hit, go there and start tracking. Sometimes, even if I can see a white belly laying out in the distance I will track anyhow. You just don’t get that many opportunities to blood trail a deer so I take advantage when I can.

You lose a pound of meat ...depending on cal. Used But they fold like a Dove.

And for what ever reason, 95% of mine run. They do only run a short distance, and they are running dead, but they run.

I rather enjoy tracking a deer for a short distance. 40-50 yards, maybe up to 100 yards is fun and exciting. When the distance gets much more than that I start to get worried about the shot.

Deer I shot with my .444 Marlin or with one of my flintlock muzzleloaders always ran regardless of the lethality of the shot unless spined. With higher velocity loads such as a 30-06 or 6mm Rem, I have had them drop from a heart/lung and also had them run before dropping. An article I read several years ago put forth the theory that it depends on the timing of the bullet impact relative to the heartbeat whether or not it causes a severe blood pressure spike that results in loss of consciousness. That makes sense to me as a deer rendered unconscious for 5-10 sec from a lethal heart/lung shot will drop and never get up.

Yep. You know from experience that you should have found that deer laying dead by now. When you don’t, the self-doubt starts.

I guess I didn't say but the 760 Remington I shoot is a 30-06

I used to shoot 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt for bear and 150 grain for deer. I didn’t always have time to re-zero my rifle between seasons, ours here in PA are back to back. So eventually I settled on 165 grain Remington for both. I shoot the old style, standard Core-Lokt and have been for the last 40 years or so. I’ve recovered several bullets over the years and have found that the mushroom perfectly and lose very little weight in their travel through a deer body.

I shoot a pre-64 Winchester M 70 in 30-06.

I only ever recovered one bullet. All the rest passed through, even the one that broke both front legs (shoulders) on one deer. The one bullet I did recover was also, as yours, a perfect mushroom.

I’ve recovered three, all were lodged under the skin on the offside.

Off the subject, but one thing I found in a deer once was an arrow, or at least a part of an arrow. When butchering the deer I found, in the front shoulder, a broad head with about 3 inches of shaft. The wound had healed over and the deer gave no indication of having an arrow in its shoulder, when it walked out.

Keith,I think you should try a lighter bullet.I consider the 180 gr to be better suited for elk.A friend had this problem and I suggested trying 150's.He likes them a lot better.It sounds like 165's are good a swell,but no experience here.

The high shoulder shot just a little forward towards the base of the neck will fold them right there! I have had a couple fall with their legs facing opposite direction from me when hit there with my 7mm STW. I think when hit somewhere solid like that area the bullet shock is what puts them down so fast

Your point of aim must be a problem. CoreLokt bullets are great for deer. You do not need a 180-grain bullet. I also prefer a high shoulder placement. It takes out the aorta, spine, both lungs, and the very back of both shoulders.

I have taken over 200 deer in NC. I am 73 now. I can no longer drag a deer so I need immediate kills.

what would ya'll says more important.the bullet or the shot placement??

The placement wins hands down. No bullet will compensate for bad placement.

If a deer is facing you, head up, a bullet into the CENTER of the throat will hill the spine and drop it right there. Even a 22 rimfire, 40-50 yards will drop it right there with that shot. CENTER of the throat. No missing, right in the CENTER.

My grandad told me that on a cold day you want to squeeze the trigger as soon as you see the steam from the deer's breath. They will just drop if shot on the exhale. I don't know how true that is but I know that sometimes shot in the heart they just collapse and sometimes they jump straight up then run with their head down and collapse. If your on one ridge and the deer on the other shooting across canyon, a good heart shot that deer my go uphill a step or two then will stumble down hill and collapse. Mule deer like to run uphill. You will be eating backstrap if it goes down hill with its head hanging down.

Shot a whitetail a few years ago with a 50 caliber round ball and 85 grains of goex blackpowder. That deer looked to be unhit when it ran. Only went about 30 yards but thick brush. I couldn't see it after it jumped straight forward. Got to where it was standing and could see foamy lung stuff on the ground. I knew it was dead and close but I thought I had missed till I walked over there.

Anytime you shoot have a good look. Not just for blood either. I think its all to common for somebody to kill a deer and never go get it because they thought they missed.

I shoot 130 grain out of a .270 and usually they run a short distance, maybe fifty yards. That’s fine by me, but where I hunt is wide open, probably still see it go down if it ran a half mile first. I might feel different if I was hunting in thick woods

head or spine and they pile up. I have a tendency to shoot high so I make a lot of spine shots. Probably 50% of the time they are not dead when I walk up but they usually don't move. Once in a while you get one that can still use its front legs and they may drag themselves a ways. If I have a good rest and a calm deer I will head shoot,killed a doe this morning, no loss of meat and they don't move. IMO any other shot the animal can run a ways.

Neck and through the shoulders have dropped the deer I have hit there. I don't hunt with a rifle much anymore but I like to shoot them through the heart. They never go far and little meat is wasted.

Might bit scary lol. I've had a few give me the shot that Sako said above and they dropped immediately. So I'm going on record saying I have shot more than three deer.

Have always taken a heart shot. They have never gone more than 30 feet if they did not fall over where they stood.

See, this is what I don't understand. I don't know how many but a lot of the deer I have shot have been hit in the heart. Never have I had one run only 30 feet. They run more like 40-50 yards, sometimes even more than that. I have NEVER had a heart shot deer drop in its tracks.

if you desire the DRT (dead right there) results you hit them with a high velocity, quick expanding, cup/core bullet, reports are the 25/06 and the 6mm's account for a large percentage of those DRT hits, and you hit them at the point of most resistance (the scapula) if the bullet expends all its energy on/inside the deer and doesn't exit, the hydraulic shock of the blood going backwards through the major blood vessels hits the brain stem causing the brain to send out an all systems stop message, however you will lose much more meat than the traditional double lung/heart shot which is fatal 100% of the time.
RR

Yes . We call that the "OFF" button around here.

But if Its thick and the shot is fairly close the neck shot is better (in my opinion) We call it the NTR shot. (NO TRACKING REQUIRED) !



Ok bucks and bears tell me and everyone else why I'm wrong.

I had the same issue on the place I hunted for years . Perfect kill shot and deer would run . It was so thick with briars and honey suckle that sometimes finding them even tho we heard the crash was all most impossible. I stopped using rem core lock first and foremost. I switched to federal soft points. 270 and a 6mm. Then if I had the chance would always shoot them in the neck. From the throat patch to just above the brisket was instant drop. If it was a walking broad side shoot the "High" shoulder as mentioned before dead in the tracks. That is were the spine drops down in a deers frame were the front legs are attached/ shoulders.

I never considered myself a good shot, so I always aim for the biggest kill area, which is the heart lungs. I neck shot a deer once because that was the only shot I had.

People keep saying certain shots "loose" meat. Any kill shot will cause loss of meat except for one. Head shot between the eyes. Most of the calibers and bullet grains you guys are talking about don't expand enough to cause much Muscle tissue( meat) lose. But if you start comparing the 243, 6mm. and flat shooting rounds then yes it will increase meat damage . But unless you are only allowed 1 deer a year why worry? Heck just shoot another doe and hit it in a spot that will kill it in a few seconds. !!!!!!!

I have seen bow kills with a rage broad head have more bad tissue that has to be cut off than most 130 grain or above bullets. No matter what the caliber. If you use a 150 -180 grain bullet chances are the exit wound wont be much larger than a quarter.

That is the best and most common shot. But I have seen guys wait for a deer to turn before shooting. The kill zone on a deer is about the size of a basket ball. That zone is still present in that deer regardless of how he is turned. To me the only no shot is straight away. Looking right at me ? If he is under 150 yards I'm grinning because if I hit him he don't move. Except straight down . LOL If he runs off 99.9 % chance he was missed. That white throat patch makes a great target by the way !!!!

Try switching bullets. Give the federal or Hornady ammo a try. Core loks sometimes just "poke a hole" thru the deer and they will run off before dying.

I did that once and it made such a mess of the guts I decided not to do that anymore

Dead on RR. But with those calibers and no exit wound also comes little or no blood trail. So if you hit them back too far or not in a vital area the recovery may not happen.

Thinking about that, I didn't aim for the white patch, I aimed for the chest. That was a mistake.

Sounds like your bullet is not expanding and just passing through, and not giving any shock or much energy transfer.

PM sent.

I take a lot of head shots. If I have no intentions of mounting a buck or it's a doe I will generally shoot it in the head if it is 150 yards or less. These shots are taken from a good rest and I rarely shoot off hand. Everyone I hunt with calls me the sub dural hematoma guy. Most of the deer I shoot never take a step. I average 5 to 8 a year. And no there are very few misses. I have a LOT of rifles. The vast majority are accurate. I have 5 or 6 that are very accurate and those are the only ones I hunt with. My go to deer rifle for the last 20 years is a custom Weatherby 30-378. It was accurized and loads developed by Randy Selby in Wyoming. 180 grain Barnes TSX at 3500 fps. Sub 1/2" rifle. My next rifle is a custom T/C Encore 35-375 Ultra Mag 225 TTSX 3400 fps sub 1/2" next is a cheap Thomson Compass 30-06 165 TTSX 3300 fps sub 3/4" . fourth is a custom 25-06 I built on a Savage 110 action 110 gr accu bond 3300 fps sub 1/2" and last is a custom 6.5 creedmoor I built on a Savage 10 action 140 gr accu bond 2750 fps sub 1/2" All my loads have a 10 or less fps standard deviation in speed All have Night Force or high end Leupold optics picatinny base and high end usually custom rings that are lapped. If I think I might mount a buck I usually take a heart lung shot but very few run away and when they do except for a handful don't go further than 30 yards. I love to track animals and have the chance to do it quite a bit for the guys I hunt with. I will admit that our deer average between 150 and 200 pounds so these aren't the brutes you folks up north grow. I have shot some large animals but only with a slug gun in Indiana but hopefully I'll get to try out my 30-06 on some big ones this year.

One thing that comes to mind, is taking into consideration all of the variables when shooting at a deer in the field/woods before selecting where you want to attempt to place your bullet.
Do you have a decent enough rest to place the bullet exactly where you want it?
Did you just walk a half mile so that you are you out of breath?
Are you 100% confident in the range estimation?
If you find yourself saying no, or maybe to any of these questions before pulling the trigger, then you would be better off attempting to place the bullet in the center of the chest. This leaves you with plenty of room for error.
If you are dialed in and have the shooting skills to do it, then take a head shot, neck shot, or bust the blade as we say.

I don't care for the bloody cleanup of the meat from a head shot, at least in the chest they do bleed out inside.
RR

That's where it lies. It's a man or women who has done their due diligence and know. Everyone that hunt's should fall in to the no doubt. If you're shooting is 50%, or hey I shoot high lol, then dial it in or stay home.

CNS is the only right now guarantee.

CNS= Central Nerviness System brain or spine

on deer the head , neck hitting the spine or point of the shoulder



the point of the shoulder damages a bit more meat but it has the largest margin for error and still getting the deer

where the spine and the shoulder bones intersect , heart and lungs are still hit if your a bit low if you move strait back you still get spine if you move forward you get spine

the more forward front of shoulder neck keeps you off the back-straps and damages less meat if you can make the shot

the base of the ear is no meat damage and DRT but by far the smallest target that can move quickly.

Hi Keith,

I did not read through all of the responses, so I apologize if you were informed of this, but it is not where you shoot a deer primarily that drops them in their tracks, but what you shoot them with as what you are asking is not about spine or brain shots, but what is termed shock to the central nervous system.

The legend, Jack O'Connor of Outdoor Life was the advocate for a miracle cartridge which came out of John Olin's Winchester Western, and it was built on your 30,06, 180 grain casing. It was the 270. O'Connor was mystified that no matter how far he shot that cartridge in open sights days, that he put it on the deer and the deer dropped in it's tacks. The 270 is one of those "perfect" cartridges in powder and bullet dimension for energy transfer. I remember O'Connor writing about a 30 caliber cartridge that he was loading old bullets in from a vintage cartridge and in that form, he said he never saw such energy transfer as that round was blowing opposite quarters off deer.

Your "problem" is that you are shooting a firearm cartridge not designed for the shock you are asking about. Few 30 caliber rounds as offered ever dropped game in their tracks. They were like the old 7 x 57 Mauser in being sure killers, but the game did not drop, due to bullet speed. Your 180 is too heavy for deer for energy transfer. A friend of mine in the 80's started loading 165 grain bullets into 06 cases and on a running shot, he hit a deer in the ham, and it literally about blew the opposite ham off, as Jack O'Connor experienced.
That is about as close as you are going to get to the perfect load in 30 caliber and it is devastating in energy transfer. Lighter loads in 30 caliber in the 125 grain tend too square for good shooting. The 06 is a load that really never had a comfort zone as it was too light and too heavy, but it killed well. The 35 Whelen is much better heavy game load on elk in the 06 case. So unless you want to trade for a 270 Winchester in 760 which is what my uncle shot everything with for 50 years, you could try your 7mm 08, which is a 270 in a 308 casing and a fine expensive load.
I used teh 150 grain Silver Tip from Winchester for years on deer. It drilled hols through them, and it would obliterate lung and heart. In that load, I did have a number of deer drop while trying to take a step.
Powerpoints, CoreLokt and soft points are all good too, but are better in the 150 to 160 class than the heavier loads in the 180 to 220 class.

Deer shot with 300 magnums are at times too much gun, due to bullets constructed for elk. I have seen 7mm Magnums knock the life out of deer literally and blow things up beyond what I would prefer. You just have a better elk rifle in your configuration than deer. It would not drop elk in their tracks and they would amble off like Ohio deer, but it does get the job done.

I hope that helps.

I do not mean to brag, but I cannot recall the last deer that took a step after being shot. At age 73 my memmory is not good. I shoot non-magnum calibers and fast light bullets. I reload my bullets. I do not use premium bullets, but prefer cup and core lead bullets. I use Sierra a lot. No ballistic tips at all. Never liked them, nor all copper bullets. Give me fast expanding bullets.

I think many new hunters use bullets made for heavy game animals and don't get the rapid expansion a lighter bullet can provide. In 7mm-08 and 280 I like 120 or 140, For 270 I like 130, and .257 I use 115-120. For 243 I use 100 grain. In 223 I use 60 gr Nosler, the only premium bullet I use. I repeat, no premium deep penetrating bullets are needed for deer. No magnum calibers are needed. Just place your shot high on the shoulder.

I hunt from elevated stands and never take running shots. Ranges are 100 - 300 yards. Some over crops and some over bait.

I hunt only with a 30-30, mostly heart lung shots and they almost always run 50-75 yds, some more. This usually isn't a problem except at dusk or near close property lines. I replaced the 170 gr bullets with 150's and most deer never got out of sight, I replaced those with the newer Hornaday 165 gr leverevolution and got more DRT then ever. The extra velocity and expansion does the trick.
In a 30-06 I think the 180 gr bullets are too stout, try 150's or 165's.

When I said I have a tendency to shoot high I meant I break their back not take out their heart and lungs as intended but I am glad I amused all of you. As far as neck shots or high shoulder shots you are getting the spine no matter what you call it. I have killed deer with 243,257 Roberts,270 S.M.,308 and 300 Winchester Mag. Caliber doesn't matter much as long as you shoot it well and know its ballistics. I don't take head shots often but will on unsuspecting deer.

I made that drop in their tracks statement on the 7mm 08 thread. Until starting to hunt with that caliber, I had always used larger calibers with heavier bullets. I had bought that rifle used with a lot of Federal ammo with 140 grain nosler bullets. Hunting out of a box blind with shots from 50 to 300 yards the kids and I have never had to track a deer. All heart / lung shots. Usually relaxed deer. 90% bullet recovery under skin on far side. They have dropped so fast that I thought I missed. I am more sold on the bullet than the caliber. Nosler ballistic tip. I feel it's the perfect whitetail combination! That's not to say that you can't kill deer with whatever you want to poke a hole in them with.

If your putting a lethal shot on the animal don't worry about dropping it in it's tracks. You pull a head shot in my camp and it's the last time you will be in my camp. Ever seen a deer a few weeks after season missing its lower jaw because some idiot couldn't wait for a good shot. Slow death and extremely hard to track and catch up to. Boiler room, boiler room, boiler room. Everyone will make mistake sooner or later but it's much harder to miss bad on an 8 inch circle.

300 mag with 165 Hornady interloks going 3200 FPS. I think I am 8/8 with instant drops. Lots have been through the rib cage as well. Of course your spine and head shots should always drop them

I feel you are shooting to heavy a bullet to get a drop shot, with out hitting the head or spine. I shoot light bullets going fast and drop stuff where it stands. I shoot a 75 gr HP out of my 25-06 at about 3600 fps. It blows deer off their feet shot in the ribs, broadside. I get an entrance and no exit and they never move after being hit. I have shot a lot of coyotes with the same load and it folds them up as good as anything and most the time no exit. I would try a fast expanding bullet in 150 gr out of the 30-06.

I shoot like MJM does, fast bullets thru the ribs. Not a guarantee to drop on the spot like a spine or neck shot, but pretty close.

Another good point of shooting them in the ribs is no wasted meat like the shots in the shoulders and neck area. To me, nothing worse than a shoulder shot deer.
But, that's just my opinion.

I've had deer go right down and quite a few ran away, but didn't make it far with a heart-lung shot.

I reload and use 150 grain Barnes TSX bullets. I like them because they have great penetration and leave a heavy blood trail because the bullet always exits the body. I shoot a 30-06 as well

If you don't reload, I believe Federal used to use Nosler Partition bullets in their Premium grade shells in 30-06. These bullets are great for penetration too.
I never cared for Remington Core-Lokts.

I have a 270 Ruger M77 I have always tried to shoot my deer through the chest using 130 grain Remington core lokts. The would always run 150-250 yards. I switched a couple years ago to the Barnes 130 grain TSX bullets. The first deer I shot through the chest it’s front shoulders dropped to the ground and it pushed itself with its hind legs about 15 yards and died. I shot a 168# black bear through the chest and it dropped instantly. Only two animals I have shot since using the Barnes TSX bullets. I have been using the Barnes MZ Hollow points in my 50 caliber muzzle loader and they shoot well and are devastating on deer.

Exact reason I stopped using core lok Federal soft point 130 gr in my 270.
6 mm handloads 87 gr spritzer 44 grains of 4831

Here is what I have noticed more than anything else. Whether high powered rifle, or shotgun slug, if the bullet does not pass through on a chest shot, the deer is DRT nearly every time.
Hydrostatic shot is a terrible thing. A pass through cheats you out of it. Bullet type selection can greatly aid in the prevention of pass through.

I think whitetail deer are one of the hardest big game animals to put down. They are certainly tougher than their Sitka blacktail cousins. Whitetails are tougher, in terms of running off with half their heart gone, than any Alaska animal I've hunted. (I haven't hunted the bears or bison.)

Some outdoors writers say African animals are tougher than North American game. They must not have hunted whitetails. I killed eleven animals on my two African safaris, and only one, an impala shot in the heart, ran as far as a whitetail deer might run (400 yards). The buffalo was tough--he required four rounds to the heart/lungs from a .416 Remington for dispatch--but he only ran about fifty yards after the first hit.

Jim

I have to disagree somewhat, Carl. I'd rather have the bullet punch on through and leave two holes to better leak blood.

I worry more about lack of penetration than lack of hydrostatic shock.

Jim

I take the neck or brain shot all the time. Never shot a whitetail before but it’s sure worked on the several hundred caribou I’ve shot. I don’t feel like the brain neck shot is irresponsible. I have a lot of confidence in my shooting and I hate wasting meat. I eat my ribs bone in so I don’t even like a few busted ribs and bloodshot shoulders. I have always seen and heard guys talking about their small group sizes on paper but the same guys won’t take the brain shot. I’ve come to the conclusion that seeing antlers might mess with their concentration. So called buck fever. Everyone can make their own choices but I’ll take the clean neck or brain shot. Btw I’m shooting 270 with 150 grain corelokt soft points. Works great on moose and grizzly too.

Ryan, I commend your marksmanship. Myself, I look at how small a deer or caribou's brain pan is, and I get worried I might horribly wound the animal with a shot that misses.

I'm especially cautious when I don't know the exact range. The heart/lung area is a much larger target, and I can live with a bit of ruined meat.

I'll save the half-inch groups for the 100-yard shooting range.

Jim

760 Remington is a model of firearm. Which caliber is an important consideration.

Shot many whitetails with my 700 Remington, 870 Remington and my other 870 Remington. Feed 180gr Rem Core-Lokt to the 700. None went more than 200 yds. (See how caliber is important?? Mine are in 30-06, 12ga and 20ga.).

Good blood tracking dogs are successfully following 1-3 day old 1,500 to 5,000 yds tracks on wounded whitetail. Whitetails can cover some ground even when fatally wounded.

I noticed after I posted that I had just said 760 Remington. After a few posts I added a post that said my gun was a 30-06.

I have a 270 i really like. I load 130 grain sierra boat tails on top of 55 grains of IMR4350. Lots of choices out there and they all work but I like that old combo. Don't fix what aint broke. Its pretty common (not every time) for a heart shot deer to just fold up with it. Kills elk good too. Have heard of bullet jacket/core separation with that bullet but I havnt had a problem using them. I don't believe you need a bullet that costs a buck fifty to reliably kill deer or elk. You do need to learn how to hunt and shoot. You wont learn either one watching those tv commercials called hunting shows. Turn your tv off and give to an old folks home. Pick up a rifle and head outside. Leave TV for people that are bedridden or in prison.

K,
It sounds like your having troubles with your bullet, not the caliber. The .30-06 has probably killed more head of game than most any caliber, and the .30-30 would be a close second.
The 180 gr bullets have heavier/ thicker jackets on them than the smaller 150-165 gr bullets, and are designed for deeper penetration on larger animals, just read the manufactures literature to confirm that. Like MJM posted above, it doesn't take much to kill a whitetail with the right bullet in the right place. I've taken a lot of whitetails with the .30-06 and found the 165 gr Nosler Ballistic tips or Hornady apex bullets work the best for me , taking heart/lung shots. The 180 gr. offerings out there are usually running somewhere in the 2400-2650 Fps range. Some of the 150-165 gr. offerings are running up near 3000 Fps, so you get more speed and a faster expanding bullet with the lighter bullets, by design, which translates to more transmitted shock.
I personally enjoy a shoulder roast, so avoid shoulder shots like the plague. I've found if I hit the shoulder blade or major bone with the lighter bullets they tend to fragment and not penetrate completely, and ruin a lot of meat. If you look at the picture of the deer that GreencountryPete posted, and look at the little dent in the fur right behind the shoulderblade. That is where I shoot my deer when offered a broadside shot, or anywhere 6" straight above that mark. That gives me a lung/heart shot and with the 165gr. Ballistic Tip bullet, at 2830 Fps, I pour the lungs out of my deer most often. They usually hunch up and drop within a couple steps. I had one Y buck I shot in the front shoulder, the bullet fragmented into three major pieces and he ran about 40 yards. I had a Antelope buck in Mt. that ran in a 10 yard circle and tipped over after two laps. I've missed a few too, but that wasn't the bullets fault!

That's because you do not understand the principle of hydrostatic shock. If the the 30-06 bullet does not pass through on a broadside chest shot, the deer has absorbed the entirety of the energy of the projectile. It will almost always travel vertically about 2 to 2 1/2 feet depending on how tall your deer stand.
A pass through does not transfer the energy into the deer, that is why you need to know how to track.

So-called "hydrostatic shock" as an aid to killing big game is a controversial subject. See https://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_deer.html

"The notion of "hydrostatic shock" is silly. The sound speed of muscle tissue has been measured to be about 5150 fps and that of fatty tissue around 4920 fps. (Source: A Cavitation Model for Kinetic Energy Projectiles Penetrating Gelatin, Henry C. Dubin, BRL Memorandum Report No. 2423, US Army Ballistic Research Laboratories, December 1974). Even varmint bullets do not have an impact velocity this high, let alone an actual penetration velocity exceeding 4900 fps. Unless the bullet can penetrate faster than the inherent sound speed of the medium through which it is passing, you will not observe a shock wave. Shock cannot happen due to bullet impact, much less the junk-science terms like hydrodynamic or hydrostatic shock."

The main thing that kills is punching holes through vital organs.

Jim

i've saw a dozen or so deer shot with a 222 and am always amazed at wht that little pill does to soft tissue.normally use a 270 that ive had for39 yrs.and it really shoots.was a head shootin fool til one just low shot caused me a half day chasing a deer missing half its jaw.last hedshot i ever took and yes i recovered her.

"Many arguments promoting hydrostatic shock as the killing mechanism caused by fast bullets are sadly physiologically, medically and intellectually dishonest. Like with the improper promotion about the killing effects of kinetic energy it appears is as if people desperately wish to believe the amorphous claims of these entities’ function in bullet behaviour, and care little for the value of clear thinking."

https://www.bullet-behavior.com/hydrostatic-shock

What I know about bullets is what I've seen. And one thing I seen was a problem with Nosler ballistic tips in my 270. Killed several deer with them that just collapsed. Worked great and very accurate. Then I had one ricochet off a rib. Bullet hit where I was aiming but changed direction enough off that rib to miss lungs. It did destroy that deers liver and bled out mostly internally. It also ran a good quarter mile. I found it. the meat was fine. Running that far is not good. It might have just fed coyotes. Like I said I have heard people talk about jacket/core separation with the sierra boattails I went back to. I have killed a lot of stuff with them in my 270 and no issues with animals running a quarter mile.

I don't think anything is perfect and no matter what you go with somebody wont like it. Not every animal you heart shoot will collapse either. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart though. It will die real quick and you should be able to find it.

Just like the very most important thing to catch a coyote isn't what trap what set what bait where you bought your urine or if you used urine or polyfill or screen or cable stake or rebar or drag or length of chain, it is location. Location is critical. The rest is personal preference. With hunting it is accurate shooting and knowing where that spot is on the animal you are shooting at. For many many years the world record brown bear was killed with a 22 rimfire. Look it up.

You got that backwards 30-30 killed the most....

.22.

Dang, I am not even in the same ball park as you guess with your favorite deer rifles. I prefer my 338 wm. I load 215 sierra boat tails. I have not shot as many as most of you but of the 12 or so deer that I have shot with it I can not think of one that was not alerted that did not go right down. The few that were went down within 50 yards.Those were deer shot on drives. I like how it does not ruin meat even on less than ideal shot (front shoulders). I have shot them through the front shoulders and was able to save 3/4 of the meat. I shot a nice nebraska whitetail through both shoulders at 220 yards with a 165 grandslam bullet (30-06) and it destroyed both shoulders. He still managed to run about 150-200 yards, most of it was down hill. Yup, right to the bottom.

Most of my killing from now on will be with a 760 30-06 since it was my Dads (killed my first buck with that gun). The guns shoots great. Killed my buck last year with it at 420 yards. I may play with the bullets as I think the 165 grandslam may be a bit much for our deer. It is a great bullet for penetration tho.

And for the love of the animal that you are hunting, do not shoot a light for caliber bullet. I understand the pros of it but there is the chance that the deer may be a more of an angle than you realize. It is always better to have two holes in a deer. I have had the pleasure of being able to have a descent chunk of land to hunt on. We have friends and family hunt on it. 95% of the shots will be less than 100 yards. I have seen shots on deer with a 7mag with 140grain bullets that just blew up. Deer ran off and this guy had to put his tracking hat on. Once found and I could get inside, at best the bullets took out one lung. Once the guys started shooting heavier bullets (160-175) they were able to find the deer. And yes, their shots on the deer were good, they were just too close and the bullets blew up too quick. If their shots had been in the 200-300 yard ranges the bullets would have performed great.

Just my experience, but, one shot and two holes equals a dead deer that is found quickly.

If you are going to aim for the spine, do so at the shoulders. If you shoot low you still hit lungs, it your shoot high you missed. Going for the head or neck opens you wounded game. If they are close enough go for it, but know you limitations.

I have killed tons more beer cans and soda bottles than I have drank. Err, lets just say soda cans. I don't want to lie to you fin fellers.

hey,i aint no fin.

With all that has been said, I don't really have any trouble killing the deer. I always find my deer usually within 50 yards. My observation was that many people talk about dropping, where they stand, with one shot. When my dad was alive, he shot 150 grains out of a 760, 30-06. I don't really remember his deer dropping with one shot. But, all this talk of a lighter bullet is interesting.

Err, I meant fine.

Give me some slack, it is almost midnight for me.

Dang, couldn't find that emoji that was raising a beer. Oh well.

I've found every two hole deer I have shot.

Tell this to the deer That were shot with a 7MMSTW, 165gr.TSX hollow point at 3450fps. or the Prairie dog that just swallowed a 40gr. Vmax at 4000fps. I am not sure what to call it, but it definitely shocking.

shot a fall turkey once with my 220 swift--once

I can only suggest that you spend less time inside, reading, and more time working up different loads and bullet types and actually shoot more than a handful of deer with a rifle.
There was a thread recently about a fellow mentioning killing something shy of 400 deer. You won't need to shoot that many to actually learn something about what drops a deer in its tracks.
Many have mentioned the devastating effect of a 30-06 placed on the scapula. Some mentioned that it was due to hitting the spine. This is often true enough, but not exclusionary. Many deer succumb to the mass trauma caused by the full expansion of the bullet and the fact that the deer took the brunt of the entirety of the force (mass X velocity) which that cartridge had to offer.
Conversely, a 30 caliber hole going in and coming out cleanly indicates that the energy contained within that cartridge was not absorbed by the deer. I have mortally wounded two deer with one bullet on more than one occasion, indicating this.

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance/

this article explains shock reasonably well.

they are talking cape buffalo

I agree that on a sub 50 pound animal you can get shock every time maybe even on 80 pound and less animals.

their theory is shock works when catching the animals heart mid beat if you think of blood pressure and say your 140 over 80 not good but some what normal if the bullet doubles your BP on the 140 it pushed it to 280 and your get brain damage but if you were at 80 when the bullet hit it only took it to 160 not a good bp but survivable for the brain , even if your likely to die from the other fatal injuries.

if your shooting a 7mm STW at 100 yards and blazing a bullet into the deer at 3200fps you probably do get shock more often.

but that is a barrel burner of a rifle and a magnum round and still may not be enough to get shock on every one



back to a more reasonable round that has been mentioned a few times in this discussion a 150gr 30-06 a 150gr bullet at 2910fps say you shoot most deer about 75 yards 2704fps at target if your shooting 75 pound deer yes they probably all drop where shot , but when your shooing a deer 3 times larger at 225 it isn't a sure bet.

most of my deer shooting has been with 12 ga Winchester rifled slugs , on 100-130 pound does they never ran then I shot a few 200-230 pound bucks same shot placement most ran and some distance.

had I had a 300 win mag maybe fewer of them would have run but shock isn't a guarantee most definitely not with a shotgun and rifled slugs even with a devastating as the wound channel can be and a solid exit

the article/ study talks about how on autopsy the animals that fell had hemorrhaging in the brain and those that ran did not , as I recall it was approximately a 50/50 split run a distance vs fall where shot.

if your shooting smaller deer with a 150gr 30-06 you may see high percentage of DRT. but at some point you can flip a coin 5 times and come up heads every time but eventually you toss a tails flip the coin a hundred times and you likely start to look closer to 5050.

and if you could keep increasing the size and energy of the round you could probably keep shocking deer to a certain size , but at some point counting on shock as you get to larger animals with out constantly increasing bullet weight and velocity , but we hit a limit you and your shoulder can only take so much.

while shock is great and works well on smaller animals, hitting the CNS is really the only guarantee.

in which case a 308 or 30-06 with a 165 will take anything US and make it drop where it was shot.

you can shock the CNS with a pressure wave through soft tissue/fluid if you hit hard enough or you can just hit the CNS with the bullet and anchor any deer or other game every time

If I was shooting this deer I would aim where I put the yellow circle.

You and me both, Keith.


Jim

if it was standing in the middle of a field like that and 150 yards in every direction was mine to hunt or retrieve deer on and was open like that I would might shoot it in the yellow also.

however there are a number of circumstances that would make me shoot the red cross either one .

say I am on land that if that deer runs a hundred yards off to the left it will be in the yard of 100 condos. my brother shot a doe she ran about a hundred yards and expired in the back yard of a condo place that backs up to a cousins 400 acre farm. welcome to hunting where the deer are , that county is giving 5 free doe tags this year and has for the last 4 years they are over run with deer, because there is so much sanctuary for them.

if it is going to potentially cross the fence line off the 40 your hunting and run into the neighbors 40 where they will put another round in it and it will be there deer.

if I am hunting public land I am in my tree I can see orange in basically every direction and that deer is in front of me in presenting a safe shot, I am definitely shooting the red cross because if any of them get a round in that deer while it is running , it becomes theirs , the killing round takes the deer.

if I am hunting the edge of standing corn or soy beans and if it runs 75 yards into the beans it is going to have to get drug 75 yards back out trampling beans , or disappear into the corn

then I am definitely shooting the red cross.

it is a matter of circumstance

it's the last minutes of light and I am hunting the edge of a thick cedar swamp , red cross.

The yellow circle is great advice for the vast majority of hunters to select. It allows for the largest margin of error for still killing the deer. The vast majority of hunters need that margin of error not because they are not precision shooters, but rather because it is hard to bring a shooting bench into the field.

I used a 7mm 08 with Remington Express Ammunition 140 Grain Core-Lokt Pointed Soft for deer for over ten years taking one to three deer a year and always shot for the heart and lungs. They never dropped but also never ran more than about 30 yards.

Many, many, years ago, when my dad first started hunting deer, Michigan had a "Deer for camp" thing.
I don't remember the details at all, but you were allowed to shoot a deer, that did not count against your license, for consumption at your deer camp. One year, one of the people in the camp, shot a deer, for a camp deer, that had been shot in the bottom jaw.

"The yellow circle is great advice for the vast majority of hunters to select. It allows for the largest margin of error for still killing the deer. The vast majority of hunters need that margin of error not because they are not precision shooters, but rather because it is hard to bring a shooting bench into the field."


Why not just shoot the deer in the leg and wait for hydrostatic shock to dispatch them?

Jim

Well, I'll add my 0.02.

Lots of stuff going on.

When I see a thread like this I try to think about everyone. From the young man, shooting at his first deer, to the old fart that's shooting at his last. And everyone in the middle.

My opinion, looking at the pictures above with the red X's and all. The one on the deer's head should be removed. Nothing wrong with a good solid neck shot, if it's available. The 3rd X, my opinion is too high.

And I'll disagree, with the yellow circle. My opinion, it's not the most "forgiving".

Lots of variables. If I were to take a shot at the deer pictured, (see the little point on the yellow circle, high and left?) I'd shoot it, just a smidgen higher and left. The deer has a little "dark spot", right about there.

Lots of different ways of thinking. But, kind of in a way, (hard to explain), break a deer down. Take it's shoulders out, it's down. Yes, you might end up with a few pounds of bloodshot meat. What's best? Ruin a little bit of meat or take a chance on it and lose the whole thing?

I know that a lot of hunters will agree with me, most big game bullets are not designed for the average whitetail. That's been mentioned above.

I understand an African sable is a different animal than the whitetail deer, but they surely have similar central nervous systems. The sable is an antelope. I shot my sable just a couple inches lower that the left-most red cross on the deer phot, and that sable ran 70 yards RIGHT AT ME--by accident, more than intent, I think--before he fell over--not dead, but still trying to get up until he bled out.

"That's the first time I've ever seen an animal shot in the neck not die instantly," said the professional hunter.

My point is, it happens--that an animal can be shot in the neck without hitting a vital area. In the case of the neck, the vitals are the spine and carotid arteries, the latter leading only to a delayed kill, as in the case of my sable.

I'd rather shoot for the heart. If I miss, there are the lungs to take the hit.

Oh, and I used a .300 Win Mag shooting 200-grain bullets at 2,800 fps.

Jim

Since there are no yellow circles on real animals, I actually shoot for the far shoulder.

Jim

Why not shoot for the shoulder that you can see? Or at least split the difference, like I mentioned above. A deer without both front legs is pretty much down and out. Agree?

shooting for the far shoulder is not necessarily the best way to say it . when shooting from a variety angles you shoot for the space between the 2 front shoulders as you r point of aim.

if perfect broadside you shoot both shoulders if quartering away behind the shoulder you can see at that center point between the to shoulders .

I think this is what Jim may have been trying to say.

I added the red circle / oval on the head to note that as a CNS hit that does work while not necessarily a good idea , it is a preferred place for poachers shoot at the base of the ear with a 22 when night hunting. a 22 at night doesn't set off people thinking of deer shooting , rather someone running coons and dispatching if they hear it at all.

Jim when you skinned the sable did you find bone fragments from the spine or did the bullet pass low and only get arteries.

doing your own butchering and taking the time to analyze shot placement and effect will make you better informed to choose future shot placement and projectile.

Uh, in Africa the PH's clients don't do their own skinning. Black labor in Africa is cheap but not particularly reliable by Western standards. The PH on my second safari did not want me to tip his staff because they might go off on a several-day drunk. I tipped the buffalo scout anyway, as he did a good job putting me on a bull.

Based on what I saw of the dying animal, I hit him in the near-side carotid artery. Missed the spine completely. Last time I target a neck shot.

Except for Africa. I've done my own butchering, and I always try to look for the bullet and track its path through the animal.

Jim

Redsnow that is not always the case either. Brother shot a doe at about 150yds and may have gotten a deflection. but the round took out both shoulders. That doe "ran" 450 - 500yds bouncing all the way on her chest and just using the rear legs. It was a pain the A to try and catch up to her and get a finishing round into her. But yes I would agree that most of the time that is true

Perfect boiler area shoot a deer with an arrow and it runs the 50 75 yards your talking about.

Perfect boiler area shoot a deer with a 12 ga slug they pile up. Slug at the skin on the opposite side.

Perfect boiler area shoot a deer with a 45-70 325 gr and they pile up.

Seems to me your experience with your setup is more of a precision arrow type of kill. What do they call it? Hydraulic shock or something? Maybe thats why my heavier stuff drops them.

I've seen running doe shot straight through the heart with a 20 gage and she never missed a beat and made it another 100+ yards.

Sometimes it just depends on the situation I think. But yours always being the same thing statistically, I think points at that Hydraulic shock factor of your setup.

Be less like an arrow and more like a baseball bat. Make sense?

i think defining perfect boiler room in terms of a circle on the deer where that is , might be in order. because I think it means different things to different people.

a double lung shot many would consider perfect boiler room and they run all the time when shot that way with slugs

like you said 20ga slug through the heart and runs 100 yards without even missing a step or bucking at the shot.

my argument is unless you shock the CNS central nervios system causing spine damage or brain hemorrhage you have a runner.

that shock to cause brain hemorrhage can come from hydrstatic shock , but unless you can get a very very high energy to animal volume counting on hydrostatic shock is roll of the dice. on a 50 pound or smaller animal if you dump 1k fpe it generally happens

but dumping 1 or even 2K in a 225 pound or larger animal is no guarantee

In which Outdoor Life Magazine did you read that, Poindexter?

I wasn't going to bring it up b/c someone will want to argue about it but since you did... the boiler area isn't really just strictly behind the front leg.
The deers shoulder isn't right above the leg like a humans arm/shoulder so its hard to picture it that way but thats the way that it is.
I've marked the perfect boiler area shot in green. Notice how high the shoulder blade is and how open it is above the front leg.

The best thing I read thats stuck with me is not to picture only where the bullet is going in, but also where its going to come out... you want to go through the boiler area, not just into it.

Notice that if you go for a spine shot above the leg that thats really where the shoulder blade is and I've seen that thing stop 12ga slugs like armor plating. You wouldn't think so but I seen it for myself.

Being high there trying for a front spine is the last thing you want to do b/c its covered up.

Now shooting from above between those should blades for a spine and through boiler area making a whale blow hole through there is a trifecta. Thats a show stopper.

A good example of picturing where it goes in, comes out, and everything in between.

Also notice how low the spine is. It doesn't run along the skin like on our backs. Its way down in there. See grey line.

Anyway, thats just me and my thoughts.

Take some gallon jugs filled with water and do some shooting. You'll find some rounds will just put two holes in it, and others will blow the backside clear off the jug.

Ask those magazine writers why that is.

Thats what i was trying to say earlier. You did a better job hippie.

Ohioboy we agree on the your shooting for a point at the center of the heart and lungs and angle changes point of entry and exit but yes very much through.


yes there are bullets that punch two holes in a milk jug and the water leaks out.

there are also bullets that spray water 10 feet in the air and shred the water jug

some combination however is needed I have shot bullets into deer that make a water jug rupture sending water 10 feet it the air but they really didn't have the penetration I wanted either no with exit hole.even though it resulted in a dead deer that didn't go far that was more a product of shot placement an had it hit any large bone it likely wouldn't have done as well I then decided not to use that bullet any more for deer

an ideal bullet expands but also carries the majority of the weight through and makes and exit and shatters any bone it hits.

slugs can be a real let down, I have seen a lot of deer shot with foster type slugs and shot a lot of deer with slugs myself a 2 3/4 inch 12g slug at 1600fps is falling sub sonic at around 70 yards at 100 yards it carries 1/3 of it's original energy so shooting a deer that is 90 yards away vs one 30 yards away produces very different wound channels .

while I haven't seen a near side shoulder stop a 12 ga I am sure under the right circumstances it could , I have seen 20ga slugs stopped in the far shoulder

Shooting deer in the shoulder/shoulders is a waste of meat to me, but that's another subject. That's about a quarter of the meat wasted.

I agree on needing the proper bullet, but even with the same bullet, the fast one does more damage.

Example....... Take the 22cal bullet of your choice and shoot a jug with it mounted in a 22 hornet case, then shoot a jug with it in a 220swift. You'll see what speed does.

I agree. I want a blood trail to follow if the deer runs off. Two holes will leak blood. One hole, not much if any.

I have heard it said this shot ^^, is the "Game Warden Shot"...as the deer will drop in it's tracks and not run off.

https://youtu.be/0akv5_WSJqI

A chest shot caribou can disappear really quick in this terrain. A chest shot moose can run 200 yards into the roughest swamp adding hours to the work. I was taught to minimize meat wastage. Growing up my Grandpa didn’t say “great shooting. Wow look at those antlers”. He said “good you got it but next time aim better” wasn’t enough just to hit them. I was taught to hit the sweet spot for a humane kill and no wasted meat.

I need to learn how to get a quarter of the meat of the front shoulders. I figured about 1/5 if I ground all the tendons and other stuff that dont taste that great. If I clean it I to good meat then about 1/8 of the meat. Oklahoma must have small shouldered deer.

is this where your grandfather had you shoot? red circle.

Right where the head and neck meet was his advice. He always showed me the anatomy of animals as we worked on them. We take all pieces bone in and don’t like trimming bloodshot meat. Aim small miss small is good advice. No room for buck fever. All animal bleed just like us. All his advice. Keep in mind we hunt for meat only. Grandpa has killed at least 1000 caribou.

Keith
I shoot a 7600 and also used 180 corelock and had the same results
Deer run till they drop dead as a hammer

I switched to lighter bullets. 150. Or 165. This will drop in
I think the heavy bullets RIP through and dont expand as much


On the other hand I also gave a 243 and shoot 100 grain bullets and haven't seen a deer take another step yet

what does he use for a rifle?

A 1954 model 94 Winchester 30-30. He was working on the barge and was sent ahead with the speed boat to get supplies. He seen the rifle and really wanted it. On the return trip he asked the captain for a pay advance which he got. He took the speed boat and got the rifle and two boxes of ammo. Handed over 100 bill and got change. He always says the gun doesn’t matter it’s the man behind the gun.

I figured it was something very useful that , many horn hunters today would consider insufficient.

Yup. He always said there’s no use to have multiple rifles. You just need one. Then once you learn your gun you’re set. Nerves of steel helps. Grandpa got up to pour tea at the camp one year. 3 bears in the yard so he opened the door and gave them one shot each. Then poured his tea.

But what's the fun of collecting only one rifle?

Jim

Having the familiarity and confidence with your rifle Drop your target in its track for one James.

Cool story Ryan.
Reminds me of some Buffalo hunting stories.

Good point, but why not master more than one? I have several that I can grab and go. Several more if I am only woods hunting. Way back when, they only had one rifle because that was all they could afford. The rifle was nothing more than a tool for them. Now, most folks have more than one rifle. Heck, I even shoot a ton of shells a year just for fun. I doubt they ever did that back then.

How far are you guys taking these head/neck shots? I can see a high shoulder shot but once you start stretching the distance you are asking for trouble with the head/neck shots.

When I was a kid shooting targets was "wasting ammo" according to my Dad. He never changed from that either. Any competition shooting was just silliness to him. When I was 11 he gave me his old 30-30. Bought a surplus british 303 to hunt with. First time he shot it was at a deer. Emptied the rifle and didn't hit anything. He was worse than mad. Several people told him to shoot it before hunting with it but he wasn't going to "waste ammo" with silliness. How could a military rifle be inaccurate? So he took my "new" 30-30 and killed a deer then gave it back to me so I could kill one. He bought a .308 FN mauser. Brand new. Came with a scope. Had the store "bore sight" it. We did talk him into shooting that one. Shot it twice and took that worthless (his description) scope off. The iron sight was dead on. He was happy. Never shot it again except to make meat. That rifle has made a lot of it. I don't think the "waste of ammo" philosophy was uncommon years ago.

If you're only hunting a single species, like caribou, in the same country, I can see getting by with one rifle, one load, one bullet.

But what if you predator call fox, hunt deer, moose, brown bear, and bison? One rifle would not be suitable for all those species; though it could be done, it wouldn't be ideal. So why not let me have a .223/22-250 for fox and other predators; a 7mm-08, ,257 Roberts for deer; .30-06 and 300 win mag for moose; and the 416 Rem and .375 H&H for the big bears and bison.

Oh, yeah. And I wouldn't mind trying out a 28 Nosler on those caribou. If they hold real still (yeah, like I've seen tons of caribou holding still) I might try a neck shot.

Ryan, you've undoubtedly shot more caribou than I've ever seen, so don't let me step on your toes. Put me in my place if I need it.

Just don't make me be monogunous.

Jim

reminds me a bit of my grandpa on my moms side , farmer and stone mason here in WIS , he ran the masonry businesses from the farm the gun was a tool and his tool was the Ithaca M37 12 ga full choke grandma had bought him as a wedding present.
he shot so many fox and anything around the farm that needed it.

my great uncle never took anything but neck shots , but in almost 30 years of hunting with him I also never saw him take a shot beyond 50 yards most were 25-30 the only time I can recall him shooting any further than about 30 yards he was putting down a deer a cousin had a shot in already and it was still running.

James most of the gun is a tool folks never hunt more than a days travel from home. let alone another country or Continent.

until my grandpa on my moms side came hunting with us in north east Wis where my Dads mom is from , he never hunted outside of about a hundred miles from his farm and most of the time it was on the farm or an adjacent one.

I am going to admit that I have more than 1 gun , I almost always bring 2 hunting parts break things happen and a spare is a good idea but then I also only get out hunting for a few weekends a year so I want to minimize down time, although I could see where if you never left your home geographic area you could easily get by hunting with a 30 cal in a 308 or 30-06 and everything you shot would die and end up on the table.

if I spent a lot more time hunting and a lot less time at work thinking about hunting I might also have fewer guns.

I have spares as loaners also because I am trying to bring other people into the shooting sports all the time.

Rifles are still considered tools here Jerry. Most shots are under 100-120 yards. I have no problem with multiple guns and me owning about 40 guns is proof of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwHbgNtop1U
neck shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_wnbk_P-wQ
head shot.

Nothing wrong with having lots of guns. Hunting and fun don't really go together here. although it is fun we are just there to get a job done (meat on the table). most guys have 3 guns. a 22, a shotgun and a rifle. nobody really calls fox (I do sometimes) that's more for the traps so we don't have to sew bullet holes.

Doing inventory again?

Just disconnect the coil wire , everything stops right now.