Nuclear EMP

A friend and I were driving through a small isolated town in western Utah. Out of the blue he says, "These people would survive a nuclear emp". (Electromagnetic pulse from the detonation of a nuclear weapon at altitude. It could completely shut down an internet and electrical power dependent nation.) Most homes in this small town had wood stoves and wood storage, it was a cattle ranching and farming community. They were over a hundred miles from the nearest populated area and they were used to a rough outdoor lifestyle. I think he was right. If anyone could make it, it would be these people. We continued talking about the problems an EMP would create; rioting, lutting, death from exposure, mass starvation and we wondered how we would fare. Like many outdoorsmen we felt we were quite prepared and capable of survival. But then who knows. It would be tough when the hoards of starving city folks came looking for something to eat. It's an interesting thing to think about. It would be akin to going back to the late 1800's Would you make it?

If you have a wife and young kids, I don’t think you would make it. Unless you abandon them.

Too old to worry about that stuff.
The people that survive will be those who are part of and can contribute to a tight knit family/community looking out for each other.
Like a wolf pack,the lone wolves will be the first to go and wont last long.

How are all these hungry hordes going to make it out of the city if their vehicles are zapped by the EMP too?

I live in the country, but I'm only 15 miles from two sizable cities. I know I could walk that far if I was hungry enough.

LOL,there wont be any food in the city-it will all be looted.

Without meds most people today would be dead in a month if not sooner.

Without i-phones most teenagers would be bored to death in three days

if there is a nuclear war it will likely be an extinction event except maybe for a few indians in the amazon or something.

I don't think everyone will turn totally crazy. If people pull together like any major event it wouldn't be total anarchy. Depends on how big of area is affected.

Doesn't need to be nuclear. We get plenty of solar storms from the sun. In 1895 a solar coronal mass ejection hit Earth's magnetosphere and induced one of the largest geomagnetic storms on record, September 1–2, 1859. But more recent in 1989 a solar storm blacked out all of Quebec.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/sun_darkness.html

I'll ride it out at an undisclosed location in western Oklahoma. We have most of everything we would need to survive off the grid. We're 1.5 hours from a major city.

I'm not really interested in having a group beyond close family (I am the first, only and final vote). Maybe loosely associate with a neighbor or two for bartering and security.

The key would be hunkering down and not letting others know what you have. And, lots of ammo to defend your place.

Cool topic.

I don't disagree but have wondered how likely that is now? Sure, the Russians still have plenty of nuclear weapons and who knows how many the Chinese have but it seems like the threat has changed.

I think it will be something else that causes . What? I don't know.

18-20 years ago an ice storm knocked out the power here for a week. That was fun. I watched an elm tree in my front yard catch on fire in the upper branches. Icicles were arcing juice into it. It must have blazed and went out 15-20 times before the electricity went out. Its always a good idea to have a generator on hand for freezer and frig. Get out whatever you need for the day. Freezer stuff to thaw and frig stuff in a ice cooler. Can run the generator for an hour if you dont open the door on either one till the next day. 3-4 Coleman lanterns and fuel are good to have on hand also.

There are some good fiction books out there that follow such a thing....one second after, one year after; are a couple

if a solar storm knocks out the electricity i doubt its more than a couple weeks to turn it back on nation wide. probably a lot less. if it happens during the winter it will cause trouble. without electricity , hundreds of millions of people have no heat. i never understood why anyone would buy a total electric home or even a heating system that will not operate without electricity

More likly to be a biological weapon then nuclear in my opinion

Nuclear is expensive and requires hard to produce items while biological weapons can be produced cheaply with little expense

There have been several instances of groups setting up bio labs to produce various kinds of bio weapons that have been caught one right here in MN where they were producing anthrax with the intention of using it

Don’t know about now but I know that you used to be able to just order live samples of various germs and viruses from several places and the only restriction were on some of the nasty ones like hemorrhagic fever ect but there are plenty of them that could do mega harm but f released in large quantities

And any decently knowledgeable person can grow a virous with a little equipment and research

well, we all gotta die of something

I sit roughly 1 mile from the third largest stockpile in the US. I won't have to worry long if one detonates......neither will anyone within a 90 mile square radius. That is roughly the blast corridor of just a single safe one.

The danger is those that cant take care of themselves and just want to take from others. It would be worse than some imagine. People turn into animals quicker than most realize when they run out of lifes necessities. And once it started it would snow ball very fast. Having the stuff to survive wont be the problem. Keeping it would be the problem. And you wouldn't be defending it against a couple people but rather hundreds or thousands depends how populated an area you are in.

well the aoc's of the world would be happy. they want to see a 95% reduction in human population

My preparation has been for when all the earth is cleansed by fire. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord. If you are prepared to meet my Lord, any devastation should not bring fear into your life. I know the One who brought water from a rock and He also created this earth and knows when it will pass...….there are many preppers out there but few will enter His gates.

An emp or cmi that knocks out the large majority of the power grid in north America would result in 25%+ of the people dead in 30 days, 25%+ more dead in 90 days and 25%+ more dead in a year. Nuclear power facilities would melt down due to no power to cool them. No food or any type of product delivery.
If you can find a spot where you will have enough food/water/shelter to survive for the first 90 days your odds of being able to live for years after would go way up.
If the larger components of the electric grid are fried there are really no replacements available. It would be a very long time for 'normal' times to return if they did at all...the strong/self-reliant people would do the best, the weak/unable to care for themselves would not do well at all.
Food/water/shelter.....staying hidden would be better than 'fighting off the hoards'.

And, about 95% of those family’s would have that (7 year food storage) thing going on.

Boco has it right. It's the small rural communities that pull together that will have the best chance to survive a cataclysmic event. It's not just about having the resources and capability to keep warm and feed everyone. Civilization requires a social structure that allows specialists to thrive. Blacksmiths, mechanics, doctors, carpenters, etc are all needed. Everyone can't be hunting, planting, and harvesting all the time and have civilization survive. The high population areas that depend on mass transport for all of their goods, beginning with food, will be the first to devolve into chaos and terror. Anyone expecting to "bug out" better have some very special skills to offer the small rural community or they will be on their own.

Well Marty, wolfcreek is south of us and close enough to cook us both with a meltdown . (prevailing wind) Getting old also. Was completed almost 40 years ago. Im thinking if it gets that bad it will be best if old geezers like us die off anyway. More resources for the young strong and healthy

I need medication now to stay alive anyway

I am not ready to die, thanks anyway. I will do my best to survive any situation I find myself in. There would be time to evac before wolf creek goes, at the first sign of emp/cmi head to a remote area not near any nuke facility. Most folks will hang around waiting for 'help'....get going quickly. I would be gone from Lawrence within a day.

Another thing is that in the late 1800's there were lots of horses and people who knew how to use/handle them. The majority of horses around today would be eaten within the first 2 months. A half dozen pack goats would be good to have thou... ..along with a good/light floorless shelter and packable wood stove.

well if you want to flee nuke plants you will need to go west. not to the rockies as that part of the world is crowded . the praire along the co ks border has very limited water and wood for fuel. the people living there may not want any refugees. you could maybe hide out in the mo. breaks of s.d. winters are horrible but there is wood. again though you may have to kill some of the people already there. what makes your life worth more than theirs that you can justify stealing what they have?

i doubt people here will eat horses. plenty of beef available. horse would be very valuable. especially a stud

I never mentioned killing anyone or stealing anything but I certainly will defend my life/well being anytime/anyplace.

You guys give the "hordes" too much credit, most if not all city folks will die curled up in a ball sucking their thumbs in their tiny apartments.

If you need refrigerated meds, you're in trouble in the first week. For anything else, you'd had better be stocked up or know what to look for as herbal remedies. Hard pills last longer than their expiration date, though the effectiveness dwindles as they go on.

Next thing is reliable water source. You'd need to have wells with non electric pumps or artisan wells or rain water collection or access to clean surface water. Running water is gone, if you have a water tower that might last till its supply runs out.

Then you'll have to be able to have multiple food sources within walking distance of your home .plus learn how to preserve food without refrigeration via canning, curing, root cellars, etc.

It took fema days to just get water to people after Katrina and that was a localized event.....water purification ability will be critical.

I bet you all would be thankful for those wild boars running around eh!

I've been thinking the same thing JP. Those carp and bullhead catfish in the river below the house would quickly go from trash fish to a delicacy.

I also have to think those people trying to take our guns would be doing everything in their power to get one of their own. And the so called bunny huggers would quickly develop a taste for rabbit.

This is just like the 70's when we were all gonna die from nukes now its global warming going to do us all in don't you know?

Oddly enough, I just spent the last couple of days researching both The Hollow [Hamlet in Day, NY] and Oniontown [Hamlet in Dover Plains NY - I think...] where the folks are very simple.

When I mean simple, I mean they live very pure practical lives - and yes they are poor - dirt poor - but they have the knowledge to survive on nothing year after year after year, and have been doing so since the 1800s with the only real issue being harassment from outsiders.

There's a pretty good documentary about The Hollow that can be viewed via the Folkstreams website.

Oniontown - now those people are just plain nuts - astonishing to find out that's real close to Connecticut - but anyhow - the first thing that came to mind was that these are the people who would survive an EMP or something similar - because they don't use any modern things in the first place.

I've often wondered if technology will bring about the end of life as we know it, because it does make people lazy, myself included... I'll be the first to admit that !!

I truly admire those who live off the land, because they got what it takes to survive under any circumstances, because that's what they do - they survive, on their own - as it is... because they don't know any other way, and I believe there is something to be said for that.

Living off the land will only be possible for people in remote areas.
Other more populated areas will be totally depleted of wild game and plants in a matter of months.In a lot of places people will resort to cannibalism to stay alive.

Check out Survivalistboards.com

I had a discussion with a guy apparently planning on bugging out to the country . I told him it was best to stay where he was at. I told him it was people like him that were my biggest concern. Not for his safety but for me and mine.

When the solar storm knocked out the power grid in Quebec it was back on in 12 hours. If we get invaded I believe we will come together not kill each other. Some emergency supplies are just smart and building a bunker is just nuts.

I think we are much more likely to have a bad disease outbreak break things down, than an EMP. The Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918 killed 50,000,000 to 100,000,000 people world wide. We have much better medical care now, but it could be quickly overwhelmed. Millions of people travel huge distances daily now, so diseases can spread much, much faster. Once people start getting sick enmasse, everything will fall apart.

Keith

It doesn't have to be a full nuclear exchange... One warhead of the right yield popped in the right spot in the upper atmosphere would be enough to cripple the grid in the US.

Those big transformers you see shipped on special rail cars don't get built until there's an order for one... Manufacturers may have a few sitting in the yard. But there aren't enough on hand to replace what units are in service... And ironically, they're dang hard to build without power. Even if you get the power plants back up quickly you won't be able to step transmission voltage down to distribution voltage and so on... It would take years to get back to present circumstances.

Mike

I'm not sure how many would actually survive, maybe 20-30%. But I'll bet those who did wouldn't mind wearing fur.

Cant get money from bank or atm,,cant get gas,,,store shelves bare in two days or less.OOOOH yea,gonna git ugly.

would an emp destroy a transfomer or just the circuit boards? computer chips and that kind of stuff. aren't most of those circuits inside a grounded metal box? isnt a metal box another word for Faraday cage?

I won't be here when it happens! Will be raptured out just before it all hits the fan.

Good luck

Ruptured from heavy lifting?

Does anyone actually know how exactly an emp works? For example, does it knock out anything with electricity, or just anything with a circuit board? And does the circuit have to be on during the emp? For example would an old vehicle with a carb and points ignition be okay? What about a carb and electronic ignition but not running during the emp?

Will depend a lot on how strong the pulse is and how it will effect things. First to go would be anything electronic like computers and TV's. The cars since 86 at least are all electronic on fuel injectors and timing. All the grid is computer controlled as well. All the overhead power lines would act as an antenna to gather and direct the surge to the grid. Few if any transformers are built in the states any more it seems.

If I understand correctly, yes, a lot of things in and of themselves are capable of withstanding the hit. A transformer case is usually grounded and would shunt the the current to ground... But the conductors going in and coming out are not grounded... The pulse induces a massive amount of juice onto the conductors and anything connected to them that can't handle the load is basically toast.

In simple terms, power lines and wiring act like a giant antenna. The pulse induces electrical current into the conductors and, similar to a lightning strike, the current goes where it can.

And just like a lightning strike it is nearly impossible to predict what exactly will happen and what will/won't survive. But chances are good all the transmission and distribution equipment is gone.

Mike

Anybody remember the old TV antennas with the little flat 2 conductor cable that connected to the back of your TV?

Ever disconnect that cable from the back of the TV and stick it to your tongue?

Same basic concept.

Mike

Guess you had no toys as a kid eh?

Just rocks and sticks... And a few magnets and some copper wire.

Mike

The whole concept of an EMP attack has been in the news in the last year as the U.S. Government has finally begun to take the possibility seriously. They have also consulted with some of the better known fiction writers on this subject.

If I can make it to my cabin i would have a clean water source easy to an access that wouldn't require electricity, a good source of heat, a lake and sufficient isolation to be difficult for the crazies to find

For make believe I have 9 seasons of the Walking Dead. The living seems to be the biggest problem on it. If there is mass death and there is not proper burial or incineration then disease would be the major killer later. Darrell, Maggie and Rick types would be good friends to have in those times, should it ever come.
At any rate preparation is always wise. I've known people that thought the end was near, sell or give away their possessions thinking today was the last. Their is nothing wrong with living a good life as if your judgment day was coming with the setting sun. Teaching or convincing others esp. the younger ones that they have no future is a terrible thing to do. I think its best to live as if this was the last day but to work as if it was never ending, and thus not robbing the young of any hope.
We were given two eyes, one for watching the Eastern sky and one to attend to our works for no man knows the time.

Anything with a coil will be unusable.
just

There's a fellow at work who I would call a borderline prepper. He's convinced one day he will need every item he's stored over the years. In fact, he's says the world has become prideful and needs to be humbled. I believe he'd like to see something catastrophic happen just to see if he could make it through. Actually he's kind of an idiot.

A radius is not square.

Zim

Neither is pie.

Cornbread R square.

Mike

How about a circle within a square within a triangle within a larger circle. Turning lead into gold may be possible it just ain't profitable, lol.

I seem to be too obtuse to this conversation. While some consider me acute, I prefer ruggedly handsome.

Zim.

EMP is very destructive to electronics.....all airborne planes hit would crash for instance....

I hope what ever the intended delivery system used it is secured with a sturdy knot. Where is Gordian and his knot when we need him the most?

Yup...nobody will get any further than the gas in their tank.

[/quote]

Neither is pie.

Cornbread R square.

Mike[/quote]
PI is 3.14. Write that on a piece of paper with a magic marker....turn it around and looking from the back it says PI.E

Hunger tends to make all animals more ambitious and turns the fat and lazy into thin and fit . Now if they can survive long enough to figure out how to feed themselves some other way than taking from others is another story entirely. Heck most folks on this forum would have no idea how turn corn,soybeans ,milo , acorns ,and whole grain rice or wheat into something palatable and nutritious. We are all hunters and trappers but very few are foragers. I doubt MOST (NOT ALL )on here have even successfully started a fire using primitive techniques .

I don't know who your talking to Bigfoot

I live along a river that has millions of salmon and a huge moose population , as well as beaver.I Have my own well and generator. Sled dogs, boats ,chickens, quail for eggs and meat. And bees for meed
Have a wood stove. Logs drift to my house every spring so easy firewood. I keep a net for fish year round. Also have the knowledge to dry meat and fish for long term storage ,and have a small garden too.
Your all welcome to my house for dinner. If you can get here.

Well, since 95% of vehicles will not run after an actual well deployed emp or severe cmi the gas in their vehicle will not matter …..

I need the map grid reference #'s.....

I wish I could move to a spot like that..kudos to you.

I plan to just log on to T-man because all the survivors will be here..They already regularly tell me where to go..:-)

Mac

Knew an old guy that bought up all the mules in the area when tractors first started getting a good start. He bought them cheap or had them give to him, his plan was that when the newfangled tractors didn't prove out, then people would want their mules back and would pay to get them. Problem was after the first winter they ate him out of house and home. They ate all the bark off the trees in his woods and the humane people took his investment, I think there was a flood on the mule hide market and it went south too.
Maybe a guy could get a fleet of Galloping Gooses and put small steam engines on them or a small diesel engine in them. If the starter system wouldn't work then you could just park them on a hill to start. A diesel engine will work but you might need a manual solenoid to turn the fuel on and off on the injection pump.
Bicycles will surely be a great investment.
Wonder if a guy could get a pacemaker with a hand crank?

You are correct, but you can square a radius.

I recall watching the news when things started falling apart in Venezuela (?) and the food shortage started the folks that lived in the country were victimize by city marauders- murder, rape, pillage, plunder.

Private gun ownership was banned in Venezuela. In America those hordes of city dwellers might make a good alternative food source for country folk.

Marty, if I think of it I'll ask the avionics techs at work tonight if that applies to military aircraft, as I recall in the late 1980s on the A model UH-60 Blackhawks, we were converting all the wiring to a shielded type so a garage door opener would not bring one down [I am not making that up...]

We were having problems with the Stab actuator's driving un-commanded - which believe me is a real bad thing.
To this day, all Blackhawks have a manual slew pinkie sw. on the cyclic sticks.....

I'm almost positive that all the white tops - VH aircraft [Presidential] are all protected against EMP

I'm now curious about other military aircraft.

As for civilian FAA aircraft, yeah.... I think you are right on the money - especially since everything today is fly by wire - which I am still not sold on.

I suppose a good question would also be how would an EMP affect today's modern automobile... lots of them are fly by wire too.

*wish my 79 C-10 truck was running.... that had none of that crap which is used today.

How do you protect these electronic devices, other than making a Faraday (sp?)Cage.....and exactly what is a Faraday Cage? According to most prepper/survivalist books it is simply a metal box. Would a metal sided/roofed pole barn then be a Faraday Cage???????

A Faraday device is a conductor that keeps electric charges on the outside of the device. So basically a met box...like your car.

Mike is right, if the larger transformers are knocked out, it would take months or years to get electricity back on line. We no longer make or stockpile these transformers due to EPA regs. They all come from South America now and to ramp up production would take quite a while.

Faraday cages are not designed to conduct electricity or emp charges to ground. Grounding actually makes item MORE susceptible to damage. They are isolating devices. A common faraday device in just about every home these days is a microwave (unplugged). Electronics placed in there would survive an emp. It is the double insulation of an item that makes a faraday cage. Think of it this way, If you place items to be protected in a metal garbage can they will still be affected as the emp energizes the metal can and items in the can are fried. You can put the trash can on a wood (or other non-conductive surface) but this will only help minimally. However, if you use a large can and a smaller can you, place a wood board in the larger can, set the smaller can on top and then place wood between the sides of the two cans AND then put on the lid to the smaller can and the bigger can without them touching each other; you now have a homemade faraday cage.

As for autos, all newer ones would be fried. Older cars would start once you replace the points and condensers. If your not old enough to understand that statement, or know someone who is, you will be walking. You also have to have access to these pre-electronic vehicles.

We will have to go to Cuba to get car parts.

Anybody got any idea how big an area would be affected from a bomb the size we dropped on Japan. Would the electric part be bigger than what the wind and radiation would wipe out anyway. Does the thing have to go off up in the atmosphere or on the ground?
Just checked my unopened bottle of potassium iodide, its still there and I feel safer already, lol.

An EMP is detonated some distance above the earth and radiation/destruction is not an issue in comparison to a ground burst. One launched from either side of the US could shut down the entire country.

We've covered a few "What Ifs" here. How about another one. What if an EMP was successfully detonated over the US by a country intent on taking over. The only military we would have would be that which was deployed in other places or on Naval carriers. Other than that, ground soldiers would be our only means of defense on the home front. I do however believe that if there was a successful EMP it might well be an act of domestic terrorism. I would then hope humanity would prevail and other nations would come to our aid. And to be truthful, I really don't believe any of this will happen! It's just kind of interesting to speculate on the event it MIGHT.

On the bright side, none of my traps or snares have electronics in them, I don't think I'll starve. Shot by jealous husband maybe, but not starve.

No one ever does think it will ever happen......................but then we have Iran, North Korea and China...............................

I think modern weapons are going a different direction.Russia is more interested in improving on weapons similar to the older neutron bombs that will annihilate humans but leave valuable infrastructure intact.
Just move in after the attack and clean up the rotting corpses.

The big guys are not going to start anything like that. They stand to much to loose in trade. If it does happen it’s going to be a country like Iran , Korea etc.

E.M.P.,,or hacking into the computer systems and shut everything down.Either way,,,gonna get ugly when no gas, or no food on shelfs.No banks open to get money.

I tend to agree with you...not something a domestic terrorist could accomplish

Sure I can give you directions. Just need to get over the Chilkoot trail to Lake Bennet, then it's smooth sailing 1900 miles down the Yukon to my house.

Smooth sailing ? I can do that

The bombs dropped in Japan were (IIRC) in the 15-20 kiloton range... firecrackers in comparison to what is used today.

You would need to detonate a fairly high yield device (hundreds of kilotons to megatons) in the upper atmosphere ( 18 to 60 miles up IIRC) for it to be effective for an EMP attack. That's far enough up that blast and fallout aren't an issue.

It sounds simple in theory... But you need a decent bomb, a way to get it several miles up in the atmosphere, and then detonate it in the sweet spot over the North American continent for full effect... And most of the calculations are just that, calculations. Nobody really knows all the variables you'd have to figure in... I suppose somebody could get lucky and black the entire country out, but I think that would be a long shot. But frying the grid in a quarter of the country would be pretty bad.

Mike

I would lay money that most military installations are hardened, at least in part, for this scenario... And since EMP is a byproduct of nuclear detonation I would guarantee that our missile solos are protected... Along with our ballistic missile submarines.

A country might manage to cripple the US electrical grid but I doubt they would live long enough to celebrate or invade us.

Mike

Someone should come up with a bomb that can completely destroy the atmosphere.

I wonder if some kind of super virus that would affect all the computers would stop everything in this country. The electric plants and grid are all controlled by computers along with all financial systems and all communication systems. Seems like it would have the same effect.

Who says it's got to be man made or caused?

There is debate about what kind of technology we have at Armageddon. Almost seems as if we have lost all our technology by that point.

Maybe one of these things renders most of our tech useless?

I will go with Marty on this.and add.

Nowhere would be safe. As the Nuclear reactors started melting down and ejecting radioactive waste into the atmosphere uncontrolled my bet is all of humanity would be lost. Humans would become part of the fossil record for some other life form in the future to dig up.

A God would have nothing to do with it. Man would have perished at his own hand's.

At the rate the world is going it's almost inedible.A solar flare could cause the same.

"When the disaster is upon us,,the time to prepare has past".

Not sure about the world but the USA has become prideful. Today it is for a large % of folks that what you have is far more important than who you are. Self centered and 'look at me' reigns.....I find it very disconcerting.

Mike -

I firmly disagree. 9/11 showed us clearly what a few individuals could do. We were invaded and our guard is down again......God gave our country a warning, our wall was breached and He will allow an invasion of our country while we continue on our prideful path of sin.

When I was still an active member of our all volunteer fire dept, one of our members who worked in the control room in the New Haven Power Plant made it sound like all one had to do was arc the feeder lines, which could be done with a crossbow and some heavy gauge copper wire attached to the trailing side of the arrow.
a] I doubt you could successfully fire such a rig without being tangled, and b] I question the validity of that statement because I feel the wire being used to arc the feeders would just burn off.

However, after he made that statement, we were blessed with a massive power failure in the north east, this was I think during the summer of 2003, maybe 2004 ?? which somehow got attributed to the trees of the Mohawk Valley, which is another statement I find hard to believe - but it did make me reconsider the crossbow statement.....

Regarding my previous comment, I did as a tech on the Blackhawk Assembly line, he felt that the aircraft are shielded from an electrical standpoint from EMP radiation, but not the crews.

VH aircraft on the other hand are fully shielded - which one would expect.

I'll poke into that further when I cross paths with some of my old pals in Flt Ops....

Yeah, either way - EMP would be real bad for those who depend on modern technology...........
But for those who modern society views as backwards, my money is on that they would be just fine, since their way of living tends to be more survival based to begin with,

Our Church stresses the importance of self-reliance by getting out of debt, gaining as much education as possible, managing family finances, learning to garden and how to store food and resources in the event of an emergency. I think that's great and I try to comply with those principles. I think I also understand the purpose and importance of mortality but find it a bit ironic that we cling so hard to this mortal life when we also believe in a much better life to come. Still I know it would be a most difficult thing to watch loved ones suffer knowing that with some preparation and knowledge we could have made it better.

I suppose this is why I like to be a part of this board. I'm pretty sure most of us here know how to catch a fish, shoot a rabbit, plant a seed. I think many here would be just fine.

There will be plenty of those preppers ripe for the picking.

That 2003/04 incident started near Mansfield, Ohio. The electric companies were pushing so much electricity through high voltage lines that they heated up and expanded, sagging into trees below the lines. Once that circuit went electricity was then automatically routed through different lines, which were already maxed out, causing a cascade of failures which led to the blackout over such a large area. The 1968 (think that was the year) blackout in the northeast was caused by a single relay failure that caused another cascade of failures over a large area.

I too know of a former electric company employee who gave insight into the vulnerability of the entire electrical grid. One or two key components, and they don't have to be very large or expensive, failing at the right time could take down a very large area of the grid. He stated that an individual with the knowledge and know how could EASILY do the same.

The wire does not even have to be that thick. Once you have an arc, the very air is ionized, thats what the ark is and ionized air conducts electricity just fine. Its the basis of electric welding. So all you need is a thin wire to initiate said ark and the rest will happen without any outside materials being needed.

Disclaimer. Don't try this at home.

Those transformers are oil filled for insulation and cooling a couple of rounds of .50 BMG AP ...one in the top and one at the bottom would get them to fail real quick.

Boco, Is that how you're going to survive? By cherry picking preppers? I wouldn't by any means call my self a prepper, but you can come to my house an I'll share what I have.

And a lot of people getting real sad real quick when they think that.

I seen them preppers on utube,lol.
I stand by my statement that most will be ripe for the pickin'.(not by me though).

So that brings up another interesting question. If you've got food resources and guns to protect it, do you shoot or do you share?

That I can answer with a definite " that depends" .

By the time you figure out the depends part it will likely be all over.
Trying to hold out alone would be a miserable existance and only a matter of a short time before you were gone.
Only way to survive would be as part of a "tribe" or tight knit community sharing skills and defense and work.

Well BOCO it is always refreshing having these insightful and educational comments from experts like yourself. Nice to know there is a role model for every one of us out there.

Hahahahaaaa

You can keep your snarky remarks to yourself mr expert.

Nah, it happens all the time in thunderstorms... A tree branch will lay across a couple of phases and and it automatically trips and shuts down. Then the little timer in the recloser waits X number of seconds and then closes the circuit again... It will do that for a preset number of times before it gives up and leaves the circuit open. 2 or 3 times is usually enough to burn a tree branch in half and clear the fault. Copper has virtually no resistance so it will burn quick. It's like a self cleaning oven.

You would need something that can handle several hits of a bajillion amps of fault current.

Mike

Never share of tell anyone what you have

I
That's BS! The more people involved the more desent and devision. I will take my chances alone or with a small trusted group any time

Individuals or a small cell of terrorists aren't going to be able to put a guided missile topped by a nuclear weapon 30 miles up into the atmosphere... That's a state-sponsored act of war... Iran, North Korea, etc...

Our missile silos are protected from the effects of nuclear EMP so that retaliation is ensured. If they weren't, I'm sure the Russians or Chinese would have tried it years ago and then invaded while we were in the dark with non-functional nuclear missiles.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/04/opinion/l-emp-can-t-stop-american-nuclear-retaliation-084377.html

Mike

History shows it's not BS. If you have prepped and have everything you need to get by for a while you have to guard it. Who's going to guard it while you cut more firewood, tend your garden, or fetch drinking water?

People band together and formed communities for a reason. Strength in numbers and division of labor. Everyone can take a turn at growing food while others pull guard duty and so on.

Mike

Its been many moons since I was in a power station but if I remember right, those disconnects are after the transformers. I have seen a conductor melt down under a steam turbine. It turned the concrete walls of the room they where into glassy looking stuff. And someone let go of a bucket of rice skins and the wire handle of that bucket destroyed a Rolls Royce Avon Turbine in seconds. ... Powerstations are fun places to work in.

Mike

Your thinking is nieve given the idea of an EMP. You will be dealing with people who are entitled and think they should have what they want when they want it. Your concept might work if initially discovering america. But not in an immediate emergency.... They may get there eventually, but not in the middle of a crisis

I have to agree with Mike on this one. No man is an island. His point of needing help is well founded. Whether that consist of family members or friends and neighbors, small groups of people would have the best chance of survival. Besides his points of security and division of labor you also have a more diverse pool of knowledge and you have folks to help out during times of injury or illness (That are survivable).

Plus if you have ever worked on a 5 man railroad construction gang it is amazing the amount of work 5 strong men working as a gang can accomplish.
A couple of gangs of men could throw up a formidable and sizeable fortification in short order.Entire winter supplies of wood etc could be put up in a few days, and like the natives two or three good hunters,in the right locations, could supply meat and hides for 20 or 30 people for winter.There would be lots of things women and children of all ages could do also.
No doubt a tribal society would thrive.

Get far away from any populated area as fast as possible.....if you have a good group take them with you.

I try to do that already,,and theres not even a disaster yet!!

A nuclear explosion isn't the only way an EMP happens If the earth gets hit with an X class solar flair, the same effect happens!!! Check out the Corrention (SP) effect that happened in the late 1870's or 1880's, it fryed the telegraph wires and heated the rail road rails so hot that the cross ties caught on fire !
Dennis

IAD - that was the Carrington event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

Agree, if all are known and tested compaions.....but put one or Two unknowns in the mix and it could bring all down

Your life depends on the maintenance of modern technology weather you believe so or not. Running and hiding will not save you.

Nice!

exactly what I was thinking. Ive talked about something similar to an EMP(hopefully not nuclear though). I think it would be good for us to get back to depending on ourselves and clearing out all of those that have lost some of the most basic human skills. I think the more rural you were the better off youd be, the cities would be a war zone at least for a while

Without power It will be Chernobyl's and Fukushima's everywhere.

Getting far away better mean a different planet.

I don't think so. In the event of an EMP here is what will happen... Life as we know it will come to a dead stop. Within a week cities will have devolved into complete chaos and people will start leaving the cities in a mass exodus. Some will have the idea that they can go to a family or friends place out in the country... "So and so has cows and stuff..." Most will just be looking for anything they can get their hands on to survive. And there'll be thousands of them. And they'll figure out pretty quick they need to "gang up" to hold on to what they have and protect themselves... From there they'll make the jump from "safety in numbers" to "force in numbers." And a lot of them will be armed in some way.

Meanwhile you and 6 or 7 of your family and friends have forded up in a cabin, shed, farmhouse, whatever... You've got canned food, firewood, a decent source of water, medical supplies, and 18 guns and 10K rounds of various ammo. You thought you were ready for the end of the world.

The first thing that's going to happen is a large group of desperate marauders (we'll say 300 of them) are going to see/smell the smoke from your fire and they're going to surround your cabin. They might even give you the chance to hand all your stuff over... So what do you do? You say "nuts" to that and kill a dozen of them. But one of them gets close enough to chuck a Molotov cocktail at your place. Everything you have is going up in flames and you're getting shot/stabbed/beaten to death once you leave the burning house. They take whatever is left that is salvageable and move on to the next place... Over the course of a few weeks they learn how to get what they want by intimidation and force. Sure, they lose a few dozen through the learning curve. But they learn... You don't get to learn anything because you're already dead and your cache of supplies is divided amongst them. They move like a horde of locusts killing and looting along the way.

Until...

Our band of merry marauders runs across an isolated town that is a farming community... This town has 600 to 700 people who saw what was coming and fortified the town... They've got folks out cutting firewood, tending crops, and purifying water while 200 armed sentries keep watch. They even had guys out at observation points looking for signs of trouble coming... So these folks knew what was coming. Our merry marauders didnt stand a chance and are now in a mass grave. And yes, our isolated farming community had a handful of ne'er-do-wells, dopeheads, etc... Who decided it was easier to steal or let others do the work... But the lazies were given the option of pitching in or hitting the road. And the thieves were hung to save ammo.

The above scenario is a simplified version. You could fill chapters with all of the angles. But historically, thats basically how it plays out. People willing to come together in enough numbers and kill to keep what they have... Because the ones coming to take what you have are for sure going to do the same thing.

If you want more/better insight into how things would play out you might read the Patriots series by James Wesley Rawles... His books are more in-depth and give a better picture of what one could expect.

Mike

Gee, Mike. can I steal all that for a dystopian novel?

Jim

Folks we are not dealing with muskets anymore. You can run and hide all you want. One weapon will annihilate your county and the adjoining counties. Our nukes are NOT emp protected. We watch our enemies for days before remotely ending their lives We just had 6 Saudis arrested for NAS Pensacola - and one was a flight student. Folks, our enemy is already in Congress and some of you voted them in........Mark my words again - our country will be invaded again. God has lifted His shield due to the open prideful sin of our country.

I can't take credit for it... I learned it from the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Romans, Vandals, Goths, Angles, Jutes, Turks, Mongols, Americans, Blackfeet, Sioux, etc...

Mike

I dont know if you ever read the book-The man in the ice,
It was about the discovery of Otzi,a perfectly preserved neolithic man from the alpine area between what is today Northern Italy and South Austria.
One of the theorys about his demise was that his settlement was invaded by a neighboring settlement for their stored winter supplies due to widespread crop failure,and he escaped to the mountains but was hunted down.
These early neolithic villages were well fortified for just such conflict which was common,and eventually evolved,in later times into City States,which were organized like small countries,often warring with each other over resources.
Einstein once said-"I dont know what the 3rd world war will be like,but the 4th world war will be fought with sticks and stones"-basically saying mankind is destined to return to a stone age existence at some point.

I've read a little about Otzi. But not the book you mentioned.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of hunting down one guy after you've already sacked and pillaged his village... And why not take his copper axe if that were the case?

Mike

He was wounded and got away to die later,They figured he either had time to gather some meagre supplies or was already set to go into the mountains herding or hunting.
They found an arrowhead embedded in his shoulder,they figured he got hit being pursued by the village invaders and they gave up the chase,like you said his stuff would have been taken if he was killed outright.The scientists could not determine if the arrowhead was the ultimate cause of his death or exposure, due to his weakened condition and no place to return to.

Interesting idea in that book Boco. I watched several tv shows about him.

My opinion on him is, he got caught with the neighbors wife and when the husband didn't believe he was there for another tattoo, he shot him.

I knew about the arrowhead. I figure that copper axe would've been reason enough to pursue him. That had to have been extremely valuable back then.

I read an article a few years back that stuck with me. The basic premise was that modern science really can't answer why we developed stone arrow points... They had done tests where they whittled the end of a wooden arrow to a sharp point and flame hardened it... Penetration into test animals was only about an inch less than flint arrowheads...

I figured the flint points cut a larger wound channel (faster blood loss) than a sharp wooden point would. But I'm just an average Joe. Lol

Mike

I think a flint arrowhead would provide more weight for better flight,momentum and penetration.

This is one fascinating discussion here, I'm going to sit back and do some more reading as the comments keep coming in.

Mad Max will rule !!!
Dennis

And all of that would be in vein as the radioactive waste invisibly rained down.

roving bands of marauders and cannibals, nuclear fallout, disease like cholera, typhoid, tuberculosis, coming back with a vengeance, any break in your skin posing a danger of life threatening infection, round worm, tape worm and giardia making a big comeback, ricketts and scurvy are likely.

very few 60 or older or 12 and younger lives very long. Anybody dependent on insulin or blood pressure meds wont last. There wont be any coming back from a heart attack or stoke.

people from countries like mexico will have a good chance. their babies die if there are any medical problems rather than grow up to reproduce. they know how to live with very little other than hard work.


indians in the amazon, farmers in the philippines, hmong still living in the mountains of vietnam, san people in the khalahari desert, thats who will repopulate the world with humans, assuming the disaster is world wide.

3-4% might live long enough to recreate a society in N.America and Europe.

Nope. dont think i will run off to live under a poncho, hiding and eating mice , bugs dandelions and cat tails, while waiting on everyone else to die. It is not something i want to do.