NAFA still has a pulse

Did another check in on my NAFA account and was surprised to see some recent activity. They have updated the financial statement with October sale proceeds showing a $40.00 credit. Also an updated detailed October sale summary where they moved 2 grey fox at $22 each. Still showing 9 reds and 3 greys remaining in the current this season column.
Not sure what it means but found it interesting they continue to update accounts and sales summaries.

Rising from the ashes like a Phoenix.
I heard they have some tentative funding pending.

What I find interesting here is they sold your 2 fox in October and they got money for it presumably. And looks like they took $4 of the $44 for commission and drumming and fair enough. So why can't they write you a cheque for the $40 they have in their pocket that should be in your pocket? Or is that just too simple a view of things?

So they can loan more to the mink ranchers. Lol

Probably selling your fur to pay the mink feed bill owed to the bank.

I suppose they could write me a check, but I'd prefer cash!

Good call walleye. We already know how good their checks are.

Yes you are right. Real good one!!

I hope they make it back,

That's the long and short of it.

I hope they don't make it back I'd like to see how it goes with just one auction house, see what the buyers do without all the subterfuge. I may regret that view in time but what have we got to lose at this point, can't get much worse price wise. NAFA just added to the carnage with their involvement with the mink ranchers so I say good riddance. Rant over lol.

They may have control over the movement of fur if their management firm agrees they know more about fur and markets but not able to send the proceeds. When you file for protection you can not pick and choose who you pay and who you don't pay.

Bryce

Gonna be real tough to get sellers to trust them again. They done burnt too many bridges.

If they came back and raccoon prices were $20 all you hillbillies would be back! LOL

Wow! I wrote all that fur off. I had a gray at $22 as well. Also 3 opossums at $4.50 each! Man, I released a small fortune this year

Check is in the mail...

Seriously, by updating individual accounts on line it certainly appears they intend to follow through with payment if possible. I see this as positive news. Having them back in a competative market would be positive as well.

Imaginary selling going on so all of you can get imaginary checks. Maybe the tooth fairy will leave your check under your pillow as well.

IF they were to come back I really don't see how anyone with half a brain could justify shipping to them again.

its a sad day that Jtrapper makes the most sense.

I am guessing that updating of accounts is part of the legal process of documenting exactly who is owed what. Certainly not expecting a check, real or imaginary any time soon. And, it is hard to predict what folks with half a brain might do.

The purpose of this post was to inform folks that some NAFA accounts had been updated if they were curious to take a look at what items had been sold.

2 greys for 22 each and 3 cat 46 avg, No reds sold or coons here.

According to the deloitte, any proceeds from fur sales post October 31 will be paid to the supplier, so there is a good chance owners of accounts with recent fur sales will be sent checks for fur sold, minus the normal fees collected by NAFA.

- The CCAA Court order of October 31 prevents the Company from making payments to creditors that were outstanding prior to the time of filing.

-NAFA has received DIP financing to operate from a DIP lender.
- Most of the NAFA operations including financial transactions have to be approved by the court or Monitor.

-

only update on mine is that they actually have posted on my account that my check was "canceled"

If they could only move those grinners that are left ( :grin) !!

So this is bad news since these sales occurred in October? Just updating your losses.

P.S. NAFA was a North American mink ranchers COOP. If the mink ranchers of North America want to start another Auction, they still may not want to sell cheap wild fur.

If coonman sees this there'll be fur on the way!

Dirt, I believe you are correct. NAFA is still operating with a outlined business plan with the court, they are selling assets, and working with SAGA.

Nafa competing with FHA to entice buyers could only help.....the buyers. The trapper suffers.

Nafa helping drown the markets with ranch mink does not help the trapper.

Timing was terrible for Nafa.Going under right at the bottom of the cycle,with the fur market set to take off,and they wont be a player.

If NAFA crawls out of this and is still in business a couple years from now, they will be operating much differently.

Boco, What indicators are you looking at that tell you that the market is poised to take off?

Same as it always is,the demand for fur has not changed,but the supply is drying up.The downward prices were due to overproduction after the last spike in 2012.That was a very good year-$186 avg on marten that year,and ranchers were making big money too-greed took over and the overproduction by the ranchers set the cycle in motion once again.
Anyone who has studied the fur trade over the last 300 years knows that it is always cyclical for one reason or another,affecting supply and demand.

So, none?

So none what?

Economics 101, Supply and Demand

They may be running like in past. Give them a year

It’s gonna take more than a year. IF it ever happens. They’ve got a long way to go to figure out the current mess.

Plus they’ve lost most of their employees and will have to rebuild the trust of trappers to get their shippers back. And if they are selling off their buildings, where will they operate out of.

I would like to see it happen. Just not overly optimistic that it will.

It is my understanding that around 70% of their business was ranch fur. That means that 70% of their business is gone with their deal with SAGA. Does it not make sense that somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of their assets, facilities and employees are no longer needed since 70% of their business is gone? Granted, if they do rise out of the ashes on the wild fur side, they will have to gear up facilities and employees to support that business. The way the bad checks and leftover inventory is handled may well determine if will be able to restore enough confidence to even attempt to rise from the ashes. And many of their blue collar employees are already working for FHA or Groenewold.

Still a lot of questions to be answered.

I like the way you think.....my intuition tells me your right .

Management at NAFA obviously knew nothing about history of fur trade like Boco. A bunch of buffoons running that company into the ground.

Pretty much yup. They lived the high life that's for sure.

The problem was NAFA's suppliers (mink ranchers) can't ranch on love like trappers can trap on love.

Yea they should of stick with wild fur. They could sell it , collect the fees and didn't have to make production cost for the shipper,and they would all be back to ship again next year. .

They were always a Mink ranchers' coop. They were always going to do what was best for the owners. Wild fur was the sideline business. It was never the primary money maker.

Ready to have your feathers ruffled?

If NAFA were to come back then anybody who send fur to them or engages in business with them is asking to be taken again and needs to have their head examined. NAFA has shown their hand and made it obvious to everybody that they don't care about the wild fur producers, only political/farmed business interests. From a business standpoint the farmed fur is more reliable but they need to see the wild fur market is an unreliable market as far as what they may receive in a year, but their wild fur producers are reliable people and there are far more of them than people in the ranched fur industry.

But they sure handled a lot of wild fur and trappers made scads of money off Nafa for a long time.

One of the guys in the top of who NAFA owes money to (like somewhere in the top 10-15 as shown by the list that was going around) must be a mink rancher near Arlington, SD. Never knew we still had some big ranch minkers around this state anymore. Or was he a fur financier that loaned NAFA the money-- they owe him a million+

I don't think anyone can say they made scads of money from NAFA, especially for a long time.

Myself and a bunch of trappers here have been selling at the auctions for 40 +years,I can guarantee you we made scads of money thru the auctions.
Some years even the poor fur sold for near the same as the better goods.

Big money, big money.

I can't. I had a few good years. Most years were unimpressive.

I know of this rancher you speak of.

SD Coon Catcher- Is his operation with outside pens or inside? Or maybe the outside way of doing ranch mink is so 1970s.

I know a guy from my former church that used to work at a mink place over by Luverne, MN until about 2+ years ago, then got a factory job. I wonder if that operation is still kicking, I didn't recognize any southern MN names on the list of who NAFA owes money to...

I only know of him through a friend of mine, I don't know any details on the operation. Believe me, I was just as surprised as you when I heard there was a mink farm in SD. I would imagine NAFA falling through might be a big problem for him and his operation.

I guess that all depends on your definition of "scads"

Darn few businesses go broke at the TOP of the market! Good grief.

Several colleagues of mine received bad checks just in a 5 mile radius of my house. They called NAFA and we're told that new checks would be sent out in October then November. Of course, they said they would take care of the bank transaction fee associated with the bounced checks. Nothing has happened and nothing is gonna happen. If they have your fur too, like my buddies, it's in a different country. It may not be their fur, but do you want it back if it was even possible? Shipping costs. I still say it's gone. I'm right until proven different. Your losing money while they hold it too.

NAFA was supporting ranch mink operations across Europe, and had a large operation in Poland. The over supply of ranch mink was created in part by NAFA, NAFA cut it's own throat.

Low of $400/day high of $2000/day.Trapping all species.Both houses.

What do you think existing ranches are doing now?

Not even close when compared to Kopenhagen and the Chinese explosion.

Borrowing from SAGA, who will eventually be bailed out by the Finnish government. Like they bailed out their fur farmers back in the late 80's.

"Before Finland joined the EU, public subsidies for fur
farming were substantial. When recession hit the fur industry
at the end of the 1980s, the government intervened to help.
In 1990–91, the fur industry received an additional package of
25 million euros from the state in direct support for the price
of skins. Without this funding package the Finnish fur industry
would probably not have survived this period."

Boco, you do live in the promised land, don't you! I wonder what you happen to your daily tally if you couldn't catch sable or your high-end northern beavs...?

I wonder how Boco would do if he was forced to re-locate to IN or KS (not picking on you all, just trying to get Boco out of his element) and make his living or at least part of his living-- remember he worked on the railroad up there--from trapping...? I asked the question before, what's more valuable per cm2, a prime pine marten or a prime western bobcat on a normal year?

[quote=Jurassic Park

If they came back and raccoon prices were $20 all you hillbillies would be back! LOL [/quote]

I kind of think you are spot on

My hat is off to anybody doing 400 daily in this kind of market. We just don't have that kind of quality or numbers of fur like that where Im from.

In this country I know of no ranchers borrowing money from Saga.

I find it humorous that some on here think NAFA was responsible for the hot market back in the day. If that's the case then are they responsible for the crash as well ?

Promotion can be fickle

Not yet maybe. Where you selling your mink this year?

Nafa updates accounts with information from two months ago and everyone is talking about how the market will be with them back and what not lol. They are being handled by the court step by step right now on what they need to do and how they do it. Personally I would be even more (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) off if I found out they sold more of my stuff and owed me more money. But that is just me. Like Wiss Miss said they are a long way from even being able to see the tunnel let alone coming out of it. I have my doubts but i also know that there is value history of a company and them being allowed to become solvent again. Similar to bail outs that happen here in the states as well. I would expect leadership would have to completely change before i would trust them with anything. And even then i would need to see the fellow trappers repaid like promised before i would ever send a thing to them.

Two different places.

If you guys think we are getting rich off some of the best fur in North America on Auction prices, why do they have to guarantee a price above the Auction prices in the NWT? Maybe because Auction prices are not that lucrative anywhere you may trap much of the time.

P.S. Even the guaranteed prices are not IMO get rich prices.

My grandfather use to say "If you get taken once, shame on them. If you get taken twice, shame on you."

Hey folks, I get trapper predator caller magazine that came today. Pretty informative on NAFA and short-haired fur in general. Looks like it's best to use other buyers that will pick up 20,000 additional customers.

Dirt-

I was inferring to Boco's range of what he thought (knows) his fur was worth on an average day when he was sending pelts to both NAFA and FHA. The unknown variables are 1) how many days a year did Boco trap?, and 2) what were his expenses? Revenue in, obviously doesn't equate to profit.

Boco's stated minimum was $400 a day so if he trapped 60 days his revenue in would have been 24k for the year, 90 days would have been 36k. He stated his highest grossing day was $2,000 a day. I doubt that was sustainable for a whole season but let's just say it was so for a 60 days of trapping, cash flow in from his furs would have been 120k, 90 days it would have been 180k. I don't know what a boreal forest trapper averages for actual trapping days but if it was 60-90 days, then Boco's value for the year would range from $24,000 to $180,000 a year. I'm sure he or you will tell me where I'm wrong.

There are guys in the lower 48 who bust their butts with size of their lines and sheer efficiency of their efforts (that will never be me, never) reach that lower range of $20-35k range by trapping the species we have here but perhaps only a few dozen who can reach towards the middle of Boco's potential range, and they would have to be long-liners of western bobcats or heavy pale coyotes, maybe a few other exceptions. But Boco just flipped his numbers out there like its no big thing. That's all I'm saying.

More local buyers will come on board to fill a void but there will need to be another major collection outfit be it auction, private whatever that can develop the markets for the numbers that the international buyers want to deal with so they can make decent profits on small margins. FHA, GFW, and others have responded. Weibkes is another established buyer in the upper Mid West with a long history of buying fur and has his outlets as do other long term larger buyers and regional collectors.
Fur is not a good likely product to try and become horizontally involved in with the market being cyclic and fad driven, unlike fuel, energy, food etc.

Bryce

Now I am just talking about my way of running lines here,Not everyone runs their lines the same.In normal years (prices)a one day run of one line could get a low of around 400 or a good days could be upwards of 2000,depending on the amount of animals caught,and the species.When marten and otter and cats were high it did not take much fur to hit 2000 on a run,Not every year did I have enough different lines out to run 5 days a week,some years I did.When I was working full time I could only run 3 lines a week.And my mid week line was a smaller one.
Last year and this year effort was very small because of the market conditions,Plus I am older now.
But over the years I ran 5 lines a week for quite a few years and no less than 3 lines a week most of the time.We did make very good money thru the auction houses for 40 years,when fur prices were normal.
Costs of running lines here is low 40 to 60 a run would be the expense.
I was never a big numbers trapper like some guys in the north.Some guys run very long lines on extended checks,their take on one run of marten could be very high.
A few years ago,one trapper picked up over 70 marten on one check of his long line in this area,I believe he ran a 10 day check.He also had a couple other lines in different parts of the province at the same time.
I never liked running those long marten lines as when it came time to pick up traps late in the year,the work in the deep snow and constant breaking new trail was very hard on equipment and dangerous from a safety standpoint when running alone.

.......boco is always flipping his numbers and ideology out there!!! very little truth or merit to either lol

Well Wallfur,I have documented a season a couple years ago,on here not a normal season like when I trapped in my younger years though,but it was a 3 day a week short line,since I'm,64 now.
I dont know your age but do you even trap?I cant recall you ever sharing anything about your skills.

.......document here means nothing ....

Means everything.
You put your tax return on here and then I will.LOL.
You sound like the democrats,lol.What are you going to do Impeach me,LOL.

...;like most on here I don't find the need or want to brag about my catch or skills lol maybe you should try to stay on topic not every post is about you or your skills and your limited knowledge about trapping based on your own little trapline.

I very seldom made his "low", even when prices were good here.

I'll sell through FHA. But I doubt I'll get the kind of averages I got from NAFA

i like turtles

You guys need to keep in mind that boco is talking Canadian money which is typically worth 20 to 30 percent less than ours. Now I'm not trying to take away from Robert and I did say typically. $2000 days is hard for the imagination to grasp at $125 Marten and $150 otter.

$400 days aren't hard to imagine at $40 Marten and $20 beaver

So,...….he averages 10 beaver and 5 marten every calendar day? Or any mix of numbers that come out to 400 cn

Yeah, that was part of my point, sable has been one of the most valuable furs out there, especially on a sq centimeter value. When the marten were over a $100 USD a piece, it wouldn't be hard to pick up 4 a day with enough traps out. Dirt traps marten and says my basic premise that concentrating on sable in the boreal woods and making good coin from it is not correct year in, year out so I'll defer to him. I have not, and probably never will, trap any marten.Given the species that most lower 48 eastern and Midwestern trappers have to work with, on an "average" year over the past 25, it would be hard to get AND sustain $400 a day catch. Maybe there's more guys that can (have) done that, especially if they have multiple gigs a year where they can trap full time Nov through Jan and put in the time. Or just extremely talented and efficient guys who can work full-time (or nearly full time) and still catch lots of animals. That's all I was trying to say.

P.S. The guy that is on his quest of catching a 1,000 yotes this year, let's say he averages $50 a piece for them (I think a lot of them are KS coyotes) that would be 50k in cash flow this year. How much of that 50k would be used up running fuel for his vehicle, 10k, more...?

And don't forget....that's the worst he did. He is a machine.....

And Never Has

He should average more than $50 if the market holds, his expenses will be substantially more than 10k.

Seen way more years of $40 marten than $100 marten. Got NAFA Top Lot one year $43. Didn't see a $50 average until 2005. Marten population varies from year to year. Weather controls harvest also. Season hasn't even started here yet. Because of weather. That is American money. I'm Humble, not bragging.

P.S. I don't sell beaver for $20 unless I get stupid and send them to NAFA.

BTW I don't operate in a boreal forest.

All Hail Dirt and Boco.......

.........were not worthy..were not worthy.....

I dont think a lot of you guys really understand how traplines are run here.On winter land lines We have to let our traps time to work,so we run morelines on extended checks,this means checking less empty traps,and being able to run a lot of traps if we have the ground and inclination.
Often on a typical run I would pick up 5 or 6 different species of fur.
A few otter and a few cat plus 6-12 marten,then the usual weasels squirrels,mink,fox,fisher, etc and it adds up.
Some days the traps will be full with 2-3 otters 12 - 15 marten,2/3 cats maybe a wolf or two.
Now to avg out over time and account for the value of the dollar,I would say marten would hit at 70.A lot of years marten were around 100 and for a few years around 50 then there were the spikes.Some years our dollar was at par with USD most years below(which was better)
Cats would hit around 250,Otter sold for real strong prices for a long time,so Otter would hit at 70.Beaver was fairly solid early in my career,and dropped over time,on avg beaver would hit around 35,maybe a bit less because of the last 5-6 years.In the 70's 80's beaver was king.Avg's were good.
Wolf was a real moneymaker-I sold tanned wolves all day long for 500 ea,for decades thru the outfitters,did not matter quality or prime.Bear was another-2/3 bear a week in the spring for 2-3 weeks brought real good money each year.And the spring under ice beaver runs for a week or two was also good return for the work back in the day.These pelts always brought top dollar at auction
So over the last 40 years or so,avg out on all fur $400 to $500 day on the line was expected.With the high days not uncommon.

In the very odd years that marten dropped to below 40 avg then it was necessary to run longer lines and extend the check times ,and concentrate on other fur If you wanted to keep the daily rate up.
Many years weasels were good money on the marten line.At 8-10 avg and 5-10 a day common they paid the expenses and then some.

oh i believe ya Boco.

Well like I said you can check my blog on the trap talk to see typical trapchecks on a reduced line.I was in my 60's when I posted that.That line is not typical of my haydays.
I'm just trying to share the methods that are used here by trappers,I am by far not near as productive or skilled a trapper as a lot of guys in my area here.

Robert, don't bore them with the details.

Not me. I know better. NAFA started after the fur boom crash in 1987. I thought that was the prices we were talking about?

I actually have records of what NAFA prices were since '96 and '96 was an upswing year until the crash in '97.

Whether one believes it or not-the proof is there,A lot of money was made thru the auction houses by trappers over the last 45 years.I stand by that original statement.I guess if you werent there or are a johnny come lately you cant grasp that.

although i've never sold direct to one of the auction houses,i'm sure they had a lot to do with me making the amount i've made in the last 30 plus yrs.

So Dirt-why do you keep trapping if you didn't/ don't/cant/never make any money at it?

Why do you keep asking this stupid question? I never said I can't make money trapping. I said I can't make good money selling at most of the Auction prices over the years.

BTW Since '96 Lynx brought over a $200 average once in 2008. 2013 was right at $200. Since 2003 most years the average would have been in the $125 range. Prior to 2003 The average would have been in the $70 range. Since 2014 Lynx is averaging somewhere in the $70 area. Auction prices.

Add %30 for the exchange rate

i was talking about your raw fur operation,not your value added operation.
I dont go by the auction avg,I go by my own avg.If you have ever attended an auction,and seen the junk in some of the bins,you know why there is a substantial difference for a lot of us between one and the other.

......yes I agree with you 400 dollar days are easy but not consistent for very long......what boco claims are gross not net! what he don't tell you is that it cost him 375 dollars to make that 400 lol (example).....lots of expense comes with trapping especially if you count your time.....was skinning until 3am today! but I guess if you live in the bush like boco time means nothing there is lots of that.

They can ride out the bankruptcy then open under a new name. Got a bunch of "self made " millionaires did exactly that !!!!!!

Ironically the two high years the Canadian dollar was worth more or the same as the U.S. dollar.

There are rumors of some mink ranchers and maybe some skin dealers getting together in the near future to start another auction company.

Yea that would be a good idea to get involved with mink ranchers again.

I could see a north american auction with nothing but ranched fur. Even if nafa did come back with wild fur I doubt many people would go back.

So many morons shooting off at the mouth. Anyone with the smallest amount of sense can see that the demise and collapse of NAFA only hurts everyone. INCLUDING those that market their fur elsewhere. Whether it be FHA or the local boob in the truck.

Funny, the ones cackling the loudest seem to be Groenewolds fan club. They must be happy to see someone else getting nothing for their fur for a change.

A lot of short sided ignorant "trappers" here

So tell us how it hurts everyone. So far Groenwold has expanded into canada and is currently paying cash for our western coyotes at above levels of what both auctions were doing last year. Fha more than doubled its operations and took over where nafa left off. Now buyers cant play both auctions against each other. Etc etc. Personally I haven't been effected at all by nafa shutting down yet.

Yeah because it only worked for how many years?

Most of those numbers I gave on lynx prices would have been Section 1 averages. So in conclusion, most likely you averaged over $250 Canadian on Lynx 2 years out of the last years 32 at NAFA. I'll be generous and make it 4 years or 12.5% of the years NAFA has been your middleman.

Day 3.....

As dawn breaks around the country,it still can be seen in the distance by all.

although hard to see,its obvious its only half as thick as it was just a short time ago.

yet they swing at it with all the vim and vigor of a juiced up teenager.

..............................Ode to a Dead Horse...........................

Well, pcr2, you and me are not believers, but I'm hopefully helping other people see the light. Or not.

"But they sure handled a lot of wild fur and trappers made scads of money off Nafa for a long time."

If you could read right I said Lots of money was made at both auction houses not just NAFA.
Although there were a lot of years in the 70's and 80's where lynx were around 300Adjusted for inflation that would be like double of today),there were years when good lynx sold over 500.
So I still say over the 40 years my lynx I marketed thru the auctions would hit around 250.avg'd out over the 40 years between the two auctions.
Trappers definitly made scads of money thru the auction houses over the years,thats why they continued to trap and ship fur,and the local buyers disappeared.

The local buyers disappeared because they weren't getting enough money at auction...…. and died off, around here anyhow and nobody surely wanted to step in.....

Groney bought out a few country buyers In this area.