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usury

Posted By: danny clifton

usury - 01/11/20 11:57 AM

https://www.openbible.info/topics/usury

Should modern banking and an economy based on debt be done away with? Is it a sin to pay or charge interest on a loan?
Posted By: cfowler

Re: usury - 01/11/20 12:47 PM

I'm not sure "sin" is a politically correct topic in today's modern age.
Posted By: maintenanceguy

Re: usury - 01/11/20 01:28 PM

Usury is unreasonably high interest rates. Interest is not prohibited in the bible. Unreasonably high interest is. And yes, the world would be better if there was no usury. Credit card companies charging 28% interest after you miss a payment is designed to make it impossible for you to pay so that they can collect the high interest and all sorts of punitive fees. Late payment fees, and if they can push you over the credit limit, over the credit limit fees. Banks make more money on charging fees to people in financial trouble than they do in regular interest. Usury is predatory and should be illegal.

I haven't had a credit card in 30 years. Haven't had debt in that long either. Because I know that the credit system is designed to force the customer into financial trouble so the bank can collect fees.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: usury - 01/11/20 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by cfowler
I'm not sure "sin" is a politically correct topic in today's modern age.

Well a "sin" dosent change because jt becomes politically incorrect.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/11/20 02:05 PM

Yes, it is; in fact, it is a major sin. Interest/usury are the same thing in religious law, and it is related to greed

The Jews permitted charging interest to non-Jews, but forbade charging interest to Jews (chosen people)


Earlier Christians tended to view interest as evil, so Jews in Europe often profited from shady dealings in lending, etc. Modern Christians generally have no objection to interest (consider the rise in the belief that Faith is rewarded by material wealth)
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/11/20 02:31 PM

If you take that scripture in context, that is one part of an entire economic plan for a nation.

Another part is every 50 years land would would go back to the original families who owned them.

Which would keep land prices stabilized. There were other factors with that.

Provisions had to be made for the poor, read the book of Ruth. She was employing the rule where landowners were to leave the corners of their fields for the poor. But the poor had to go gather it themselves, Not a free handout.

There are many other rules and principles involved.

So no, it is not a sin to pay interest. The "give into Caesar what is Caesar's" principle applies here I think. God is doing something different now.

Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: usury - 01/11/20 02:33 PM

Don't invest your money, bury it.

Knew a old dog trader that was as poor as dirt, came into some money. Since he had seen some of the depression, he didn't trust banks or people. He buried his windfall of $300 in a plastic fertilizer sack. In a little over a year he dug it up, counting condensation and the fertilize dust he had nothing. That was real interest!

Free enterprise is being able to trade and hopefully being able to trade up. Interest is rent on money and a easy way to increase value without having to haul anything in a truck. We live in the easy microwave society.

Back in the 80's when the Federal Land Bank (stock held not federal) was charging 23% interest many farmers didn't consider it as usury, but stealing and that's one of the big 10.

Danny its great to see your taking an interest (no pun intended) in the bible!
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:21 PM

I'm more interested in the often heard claim that god never changes, but I find that isn't so according to the way I see christians live today. Now before I get chastised I'm not talking about being human and knowingly making a bad choice, but rather how much of what the bible says is sinful is not regarded as sin anymore. Usury (interest on loaned money) is just one example. How can something be sinful one day, and not sinful the next? The only conclusion I can reach is that religion must change as people's values and morality continue to change. Jesus went after money changers (bankers) with a home made whip if I remember my sunday school lessons correctly.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:26 PM

Yes this economic system is wrong Danny.

You still are taking the scripture out of context.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:35 PM

The Roman and Jewish government was.corrupt. Jesus paid the temple tax.

The usery law was for a society obeying God. God's laws are the "government ".

Just bc he is doing something different means it was wrong then.

Try not paying your interest. Or your "temple tax".
Posted By: jabNE

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:35 PM

Any business has to mark up the products and services they sell...to cover costs and a generate profit. Every business. It's the point of running any business.
Why is it wrong for a bank to lend with a markup sufficient to cover its costs and also profit? If its not an excessive markup...why would this be different or "wrong" than ANY other business selling goods and services?
Usury rates are set to cap rates from being excessive or predatory.
Big difference than just a typical loan with a market level interest rate.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:37 PM

Don't ask me Jab. I didnt write the bible
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:43 PM

To try to give some insight on the money changers getting ran out. People had to travel many miles sometimes and the travel alone would wear down the animals and since you were to bring your best many times the guys over seeing that would say your sacrifice was unacceptable. But just so happens they would have one that was up to par in the back they would sell to them at greatly inflated prices. That is part of my take why Jesus run them out.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:46 PM

There's plenty of sins Christians commit nowadays without thinking twice. Divorce and remarriage, hatred of our neighbors (murder according to jesus), cursing, premarital sex, lusting after pretty women (adultery according to jesus), lying, not paying taxes (on income that the government might not know about otherwise), etc etc, and yes, usury. If the bible says it's wrong to charge interest, then it's wrong to charge interest. We shouldn't try to justify it by saying it's got be done because of reason XYZ. What was sin then is sin now.

Unfortunately, we all sin in various ways. All have sinned. Luckily, we don't get to heaven by not sinning, we get to heaven by placing faith in Jesus and accepting his forgivness.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: usury - 01/11/20 03:55 PM

So just don't forget to ask for forgiveness for all those loans you have had all your lives.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Don't ask me Jab. I didnt write the bible

Are you A Believer though?
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:04 PM

There is a verse that says you should have a parapet on the roof. They had flat roofs, and did work, spent significant time on it. It was a guide for living wisely.

That's what the usery verse is about. We don't as a nation follow biblical guides for our economy, that's why it is a house of cards, and we are trillions in debt.

It doesn't mean it is sin to pay interest.

Nor is it sin for me to not have a parapet.

That being said, greed is a major sin of our nation.
Posted By: Blaine County

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:08 PM

Interest is bad but tithing is required? Sounds like it's designed to allow more free cash for the offering plate.

I'm perfectly happy collecting interest. And I'm perfectly happy that others collect it too. It allows for the movement of money through the economy.

If interest is such a sin, one shouldn't facilitate it by borrowing money. Pay cash for that house, car and TV.

And check your 401Ks and make sure you're not invested in bonds.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:12 PM

The civil laws only applied to Israel.

When they got packed off to Babylon they had the Talmud for instruction. That was the second Talmud. The one to Babylon was oral and wasn't written until years later. It contained laws even about tanners. We are not under all those ceremonial laws. And I hope I don't start an argument here, but the 10 Commandments were to be nailed beside ones door so when he went out the door he would see them and follow them in his outgoing. Today we have those laws in our hearts.
Since law is the heart of any religion, there is an Ark in Heaven which the one here was patterned after with the Ten Commandments, Almond branch and manna. Those laws are in Heaven and in Jesus's heart. Sorry for the crash course, maybe later tonight.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:15 PM

Despite its Judaic roots, the critique of usury was most ferverently taken up as a cause by the institutions of the Christian Church where the debate prevailed with great intensity for well over a thousand years[v]. The Old Testament decrees were resurrected and a New Testament reference to usury added to fuel the case[vi]. Building on the authority of these texts, the Roman Catholic Church had by the fourth century AD prohibited the taking of interest by the clergy; a rule which they extended in the fifth century to the laity. In the eighth century under Charlemagne, they pressed further and declared usury to be a general criminal offence. This anti-usury movement continued to gain momentum during the early Middle Ages and perhaps reached its zenith in 1311 when Pope Clement V made the ban on usury absolute and declared all secular legislation in its favour, null and void (Birnie, 1952).



Increasingly thereafter, and despite numerous subsequent prohibitions by Popes and civil legislators, loopholes in the law and contradictions in the Church's arguments were found and along with the growing tide of commercialisation, the pro-usury counter-movement began to grow. The rise of Protestantism and its pro-capitalism influence is also associated with this change (McGrath, 1990), but it should be noted that both Luther and Calvin expressed some reservations about the practice of usury despite their belief that it could not be universally condemned. Calvin, for instance, enumerated seven crucial instances in which interest remained “sinful”, but these have been generally ignored and his stance taken as a wholesale sanctioning of interest (Birnie, 1952). As a result of all these influences, sometime around 1620, according to theologian Ruston, “usury passed from being an offence against public morality which a Christian government was expected to suppress to being a matter of private conscience [and] a new generation of Christian moralists redefined usury as excessive interest” (1993: 173-4).
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:20 PM

It's a big topic that one must read everything in its whole context and study it to grasp the answer to the question. My take without studying it deeper and getting into a deep answer is it is wrong to take advantage of the needy for ones gain especially a brother in Christ. And when I say needy I mean someone that is in a desperate situation that is coming to you for help.

Danny may I ask you why you asked this question?
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:21 PM

no 330 i am not. Paradoxs like this are one of the reasons i do not

wild unbelievable stories are another.


How about Lot? Told to flee Sodom or Gomorrah, I forget now which, and don't look back. Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salt for looking. So Lot and his daughters move into a cave and Lot impregnates both daughters. Apparently that was OK or least nobody was struck dead over it.

I keep thinking about the Indians who set a couple priests on fire after being told about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. I bet those priests were doubting pretty good about the time their toenails burned off.
Posted By: rex123

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:26 PM

I like the way the old testament laws always get quoted.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:27 PM

Yes Sir, its snowing hard, all my traps are pulled and I thought of it reading the post on mortgages . I had to order some new pans from MTP and I will get back to trapping soon enough. Have a good bunch that have been hanging outside for a couple months. I got the ones I just pulled washed and tuned except 3 that need new pans. They are on 650's that are probably 20 years old. The back of the pans wore and they wont stay set unless I increase pan tension to an unacceptable level.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: usury - 01/11/20 04:36 PM

I'll just say that there are a lot of unbelievable stories that can be proved both in the Bible and real life. A bias man rarely seeks or finds the truth. I know because I can be quite bias sometimes.

Danny have fun working on the traps just cold here no snow to speak of.
Posted By: jabNE

Re: usury - 01/11/20 05:59 PM

Sorry Danny. I'm not trying to argue. grin
I probably take it a little too personally sometimes....and not the bible, either. grin
We woke up here to snow and -8 windchill which is actually not a big deal but its first weve seen so far this season, been so mild and dry I think most folks around here forgot how normal cold should be for us this time of year.
How's kansas this morning, danny?
Jim
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: usury - 01/11/20 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
no 330 i am not. Paradoxs like this are one of the reasons i do not

wild unbelievable stories are another.


How about Lot? Told to flee Sodom or Gomorrah, I forget now which, and don't look back. Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salt for looking. So Lot and his daughters move into a cave and Lot impregnates both daughters. Apparently that was OK or least nobody was struck dead over it.

I keep thinking about the Indians who set a couple priests on fire after being told about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. I bet those priests were doubting pretty good about the time their toenails burned off.

Eternity believingseeking and trying for God is fine With me....rather Live for God Believing in Him...than wish I had 5 minutes into Eternity.

When the Holy Spirit knocks Danny, I hope you heed. Its a wonderous. Thing!
Posted By: Donnersurvivor

Re: usury - 01/11/20 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by rex123
I like the way the old testament laws always get quoted.

because the old testament is basically insane and impossible to defend, you can bait Christians into an indefensible position by getting them to defend things like burning bushes leading to the promise land.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: usury - 01/11/20 07:37 PM

King James Version of the Bible it is translated as: Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John_20:29
Posted By: James

Re: usury - 01/11/20 07:38 PM

Usury used to be defined in my state's law as charging excessive interest, established by our legislature as more than five points above the rate charged member banks by the Federal Reserve. Even at the high rates of interest prevailing at the time, the usury rate was in the 10-12 percent range. Most state laws provided similar limits.

Beginning in the late '90s, as I recall, interstate banks lobbied Congress to preempt state law on the subject, with the result that credit card banks can now charge loan-shark rates that might have put their officers in jail before.

Jim
Posted By: Furvor

Re: usury - 01/11/20 08:14 PM

In 1954 I was in Topeka, Kansas, having been discharged from the Air Force there. Maximum legal interest rate for personal loans at the time was something like 15%. Kansas then raised that rate to, as best I remember, about 28%. Almost immediately like black magic, personal loan offices opened by the dozens all over Topeka.
Posted By: cfowler

Re: usury - 01/11/20 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by 330-Trapper
Originally Posted by cfowler
I'm not sure "sin" is a politically correct topic in today's modern age.

Well a "sin" dosent change because it becomes politically incorrect.

What was a sin, is today seen as acceptable, by many who claim "Christianity" as their faith, about MANY topics. Even things described by God as abominations are now accepted, even uplifted in many of today "church" buildings. I'm not judging anyone, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not trying to argue about the topic. I responded to Danny's question, and that was it. There are so many conflicting views, ideas, interpretations among today's "Christians" that it isn't as though someone can grab up a Gideon's Bible, begin reading, and have a clear idea of what Christianity is, because it doesn't seem to fit most "Christians" today. Even "Christians" can't seem to agree on what God meant, and so there are more denominations and non-denomination "Churches" than a fella can count. Who is to be believed? All say they are right, and others are wrong.

Even with Danny's question, he got multiple views of the subject, but wasn't many that thought he could just take it the way he read it. Most thought it required serious research and interpretation. Others, it just didn't apply, because God set new terms. Whatever a man believes or doesn't believe is between him and God. What he does is who he is though. What he says means little, if his actions prove otherwise. The bible says, you shall know a tree by it's fruit. In my opinion, the orchard is full of trees, but most aren't bearing edible fruit.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/11/20 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
no 330 i am not. Paradoxs like this are one of the reasons i do not

wild unbelievable stories are another.


How about Lot? Told to flee Sodom or Gomorrah, I forget now which, and don't look back. Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salt for looking. So Lot and his daughters move into a cave and Lot impregnates both daughters. Apparently that was OK or least nobody was struck dead over it.

I keep thinking about the Indians who set a couple priests on fire after being told about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. I bet those priests were doubting pretty good about the time their toenails burned off.





God didn't kill Cain either, who killed his own brother.

And he allowed Satan to nearly destroy "Righteous Job".

Maybe an ancient text, written in an foreign language, roughly 1/3 of which is poetry, might be more than a light read?

Why do you cut down a tree, drag it in your house, and and decorate it, to not celebrate Christ's birthday during the winter solstice? I don't do that. Why do you?

Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place for answers.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/12/20 12:49 AM

or maybe i already know what i believe and just like to see what others say


yes i put a xmas tree for grandkids. i like xmas. not for religious reasons but a family get together, feast and gift exchange
Posted By: rex123

Re: usury - 01/12/20 12:54 AM

I guess it's easier to belief once upon a time there was a big bang and everything came into being. Of course where the material in the big bang came from ? Lets face it we can debate forever but what we think is what we think.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/12/20 01:07 AM

i dont know how you can believe in the big bang theory rex. i am skeptical. there is some evidence that our galaxy is expanding though.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/12/20 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
or maybe i already know what i believe and just like to see what others say


yes i put a xmas tree for grandkids. i like xmas. not for religious reasons but a family get together, feast and gift exchange


Guess you aren't really after truth then.

Just like to stir the pot.
Posted By: rex123

Re: usury - 01/12/20 01:23 AM

Not saying I believe it was just putting it out there.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: usury - 01/12/20 01:26 AM

I know a woman raised in a jehovah witneses family. When she was a little girl they trotted her out regular to "witness". She got baptized when she was 12-14 whatever it was. She later rejected the religion. Her Mom and Dad will pretend they don't see her if they meet in a grocery store now. Same with the rest of the cult. What "truth" is there in that? The truth in their prophecy's that never happened I'd say.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: usury - 01/12/20 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
I know a woman raised in a jehovah witneses family. When she was a little girl they trotted her out regular to "witness". She got baptized when she was 12-14 whatever it was. She later rejected the religion. Her Mom and Dad will pretend they don't see her if they meet in a grocery store now. Same with the rest of the cult. What "truth" is there in that? The truth in their prophecy's that never happened I'd say.



I'm not one. Sorry for her though.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: usury - 01/12/20 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
I know a woman raised in a jehovah witneses family. When she was a little girl they trotted her out regular to "witness". She got baptized when she was 12-14 whatever it was. She later rejected the religion. Her Mom and Dad will pretend they don't see her if they meet in a grocery store now. Same with the rest of the cult. What "truth" is there in that? The truth in their prophecy's that never happened I'd say.

Jahovas witnesses Do not Believe Jesus is Gods Son. Or in a Trinity
They believe Christ was a prophet

Not a belief System To equate with Christians

Even so putting that aside. A Christian isnt Perfect...just Someone who has Accepted Christ into their Heart....
Hypocritical actions still exist in a life transformed by that acceptance...because we are Still human
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