Love your enemies?

In Matthew 5, Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for them. He explained that even pagans love those who love them, and great their own, so if we as Christians only so that we're not doing anything more than what the pagans do. This morning at the national prayer breakfast, Aurthur Brooks gave a speech about loving your enemy, something that's important to not forget in this time of high strung politics. After he spoke, trump got up and at the beginning of his speech, chuckled and said he didn't agree with Aurthur, implying that he didn't believe it's necessary to love one's enemies. So, without devolving into a pro-trump/anti-trump political debate, do you think we should follow the words of Jesus and love our enemies, including our political enemies? And what exactly does that look like?

If loving your enemies means you let them walk all over you, tell you how to live, put your loved ones in harms way, destroy the economy of your country, enslave others, then no you don't love them. You kill them.

We should, but won't/can't.

It would look like turning the world upside down.

I think we should always strive(I used the word strive because I'm not perfect and a lot of Christian critics think we cant be Christians if we aren't perfect) to do what the Bible teaches us. What it looks like to love our enemies is the question a person must answer. I think what true love looks like is a pretty deep topic.

You love people but hate and don't support the bad things that they do.

You should love a heroin addict, homosexual, murderer, rapist, but a democrat is pushing it.
If the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and the second greatest, love they neighbor/enemy, is like the first, as a follower of Christ you should heed his words.

Jesus loved his enemies. Jesus was a better man than I or the rest of you. I cannot be slapped in the face and smile about it. Sorry, I am mortal. All I can say is God bless President Trump! He is the best President in my lifetime and I'm no spring chicken. You fools that want to vote against him should go to the hospital and get your head removed from your arse.

Sometimes I fall back on the Old Testament ....God didnt care for the believers to Join in with. Liars, idol worshipers, a whole list...... He kinda said do not mingle.
Sampson and Delilah was a good example

I understand what Matthew 5 says. And Im a firm believer of Christ, its just the Whole word of God which includes the Father Son and Holy Ghost. Some being a believer of the literal Bible leads me to Really lay on Faith.

Get off of my lawn!

God often asks us to do what is humanly impossible and they say being a Christian is for wimps.

We can love our children even if they are going down the wrong path. From God's perspective we are all his Children, even the ones that may be heading the wrong way.

and according to your bible those beloved children get set on fire if they dont believe the bible is truth. if setting your kids on fire for disobeying you is your idea of love then i guess my answer is right in line with loving your enemies?

God never met Nancy, Schiff or Nadler.

Nor did he probably create them. They are the spawn of Satan.

Agreed

I use the Bible like I use recipes.They are a "guideline"Great thing to start out with as a base, but some things need to be "tweeked" a bit.

I totally agree with you Danny...

Absolutely

It certainly would turn the world upside down, but arguably that’s the story of the Bible beginning in Genesis and going through the Revelation:: God’s mission to turn the world upside down. Yes, we Christians should absolutely love our enemies, political or otherwise. However, as much as we want to argue about the goings on in Washington, the majority of our lives take place at home and at our work places. It makes little difference how we feel about our national representatives if we can’t love our actual neighbors: the jerk at work, the in-law I can’t stand, my politically backwards neighbor, the drug addict down the street, or even the guy who disagrees with my internet post.

For me to even attempt to give an explanation of the consequences of the rejection of Jesus's atonement would take pages and I'm a poor typist. You have to have a good grasp of the whole picture and then we still dont have the mental understanding to see it through the perfection of our creator. Remember God is perfection in the full realm of the meaning which also means he has to be a just God. Justice is part of perfection, then throw in free will that he gives us and it gets into some deep water. When he gave us the glory of free will it also came with consequences.

If you were walking down the street with your wife,,and some punk ran up and belted her in the mouth,,would you tell her to turn the other cheek,,or beat him to death?

It doesn’t mean you can’t have disagreements. I am tiring quickly of demonizations from both parties. Not benefitting anyone.

How many posts have to get deleted before some of you fellers get the point? And dont say this isnt political, because you know where it's going

It's either all true or it is all a lie

God helped David kill Goliath . I'm good with that

Looseygoose , if a man rapes your wife will you shake his hand ?

Yep

What Bible are you reading and did you read it all the way through or just the parts you could pick out for your pleasure?
In the Old Testament God told them to kill everyone in battle.
In the New Testament Jesus, that would be Gods Son, basically said the old ways aren’t needed anymore...he came to die for your sins.
When reading or investigating something it pays to read all the way through the Book, otherwise it’s not doing you much good. Heck, just stop where ole Solomon had 700 wives and try explaining that one to your wife...don’t see that working out for you if you brought home 699 other women to share the love with.

Seems to me President Trump must abide by the "feed your enemies". He keeps feeding them and they just keep gobbling it up! They seem to be slow learners.

Good argument. By telling someone that setting your children on fire really is love but your mind is incapable of understanding it , you make it all seem plausible and sensible.

Forgive your enemies after you sort them out I can get behind.

Bible doesn't say that.

Your biggest problem with the bible seems to be with the eternal heIl fire.

If anyone actually read the bible, they would realize that's not what it says happens when you die.

So all your angst is over a bad interpretation of the bible, given by people trying to scare you to go to church.

You seem like you are genuinely looking for answers. Maybe I am wrong.

Depends what an enemy is. For example: If its someone who wants to personally assault you or your family, respond with reasonable force. If its someone who disagrees with your beliefs, then you verbally discuss within rational parameters .
PS: (Parameters are not defined)

So what are you saying? When the Japanese bombed Pearl harbor the U.S. should have had prayer vigils instead of declaring war?

The love part is what Jesus endured for my sins and your sins.

Were did anyone say anything that let you to that?

Lot of buffet Christians here .


Just like a certain political party and the constitution.

So declaring war is loving your enemy? You Christians spend a LOT of time wandering around in circles. My belief is not yours but I dont go round and round the mulberry bush either.

You sure about that?

100%

Romans 12:18 is a good verse to refer to on this subject.

Read Luke?

What's interesting is is you always jump in for a ride around the circle with us and I'm thankful you do friend.

And the rest of the bible.

I answered the question that was asked and then got challenged for my answer. No circles there that I can see. Is it OK for you to give your opinion but people who don't agree should be quiet?

So what about Pearl Harbor? Was going to war and killing Japanese people a sin?

Not true my friend.You have to take into consideration when the Bible was written.When they said "the world was flooded" how much of the world did they even know existed at the time?I went to Catholic school from kindergarten through high school,, and even the nuns and priests said you had to take these things into consideration.I believe in our creator,,but also believe in evolution.

Ok, I tried to stay quiet. I did some investigating on the "turn the other cheek" meaning. In those days, in the Jewish culture, there was an insult where you would smack someone. They people listening to Jesus would have understood this. It was not to do bodily harm, it was just an insult.

"Such a blow connotes an insult, not a fistfight, and was a normal way to reprimand someone over whom you had power (e.g. masters to slaves, husbands to wives, Romans to Jews). To strike your equal in such a manner was socially and legally unacceptable, carrying with it a huge fine.

With this new understanding of the context Jesus was speaking in, picture the scenario with yourself as the oppressor. You are a wealthy, powerful person whose slave has displeased you in some way. You reprimand your slave with a backhanded slap. The response you expect is the response you have always received from your slaves – the response you yourself would give if someone higher than you treated you the same way. You expect your slave to cower, submit, and slink away. Instead, your slave defiantly turns their other cheek and challenges you to hit them again. What can you do?

You would like to give your slave another backhanded slap to show them their place, but to do that you would have to use your left hand which would admit that your action is unclean.(Jesus lived in a right-handed world where left hands were reserved only for unclean tasks.) You could hit them on their left cheek, instead, but it would be embarrassing to hit your slave the way you should hit your equal. You’re confused. You don’t know what to do. Flustered, you could order the slave be flogged, but the slave has already made their point. They have shown you that they are a human person with dignity and worth. You don’t own them, you cannot control them, and they do not submit to your rule."

(Not sure if this is 100 percent right, but most sources agree that it was about not returning insult for insult, not about self defense.)

Some other things to consider:
Proverbs 24:29 - “Do not say, ‘I will do to him as he has done to me. I will pay the man back for what he has done.’ “

Jesus is expressing an important principle which applies to our relationships with friends and neighbors. It does not apply when we are confronted with a murderer, rapist, or like person of violence; nor when we are facing the enemy on the field of battle. Jesus is not talking about how to deal with violence. He is talking about the fundamentals of brotherly relationships, about how to relate to our neighbor. If, for instance, a neighbor dumps a pail of garbage on our lawn, we are not to retaliate by dumping two pails on his lawn. If someone cuts in front of us in traffic, we are not to catch up and try to run him off the road. Wanting to “get even” is, of course, a natural response; however, it is not our responsibility to punish our neighbor for his action. That responsibility is God’s. We are to respond to our neighbor in a way that will disarm and shame him for his actions.

Proverbs 25:21 - “If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

In doing so, you heap red-hot coals on his head, and the Lord will reward you.” Once we discover how to correctly translate Matthew 5:39, we can then correctly understand the verses which follow. Each verse is an illustration of how we should react to a hostile neighbor. If, for example (Matthew 5:39), a friend insults and embarrasses us by slapping us on the cheek, we are not to slap him back, but instead offer our other cheek. This, by the way, is probably the best-known of all the sayings of Yeshua. It also is another of the sayings on which pacifism is based. Properly understood, however, it has nothing to do with battlefield situations, defending oneself against a murderer, or resisting evil. It is an illustration of how to deal with an angry neighbor, a personal “enemy.”

Mistranslation of Matthew 5:39 has created a theological contradiction. But, when this saying is understood Hebraically, rather than contradict, it harmonizes beautifully with the rest of Scripture. Our response to evil has to be resistance! It is morally wrong to tolerate evil. Our response to a “hot-headed” neighbor, on the other hand, must be entirely different. His anger will only be temporary if we respond in a biblical manner:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 - “See that none of you pays back evil with evil; instead, always try to do good to each other and to all people.”

1 Peter 3:9 - “Do not repay evil with evil or curses with curses; but with blessings. Bless in return – that is what you have been called to do – so that you may inherit a blessing”

Romans 12:14, 17-19 - “Bless those who persecute you. Bless them. Do not curse them. Do not pay anyone back with evil for evil….If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live peaceably with everyone. Beloved, do not take revenge, but leave that to the wrath of God.”

The responsibility of the godly person is to defuse a potentially divisive situation by “turning away wrath.” We are not to seek revenge. If a neighbor or friend has wronged us and is in need of punishment, God is the only one who can administer it properly:

Proverbs 20:22 - “Do not say, ‘I will repay the evil deed in kind.’ Trust in the Lord. He will save you.”[i.e.,"He will take care of it"]

Our responsibility is not to react, not to respond in kind, to be a belligerent (combative ) neighbor. We are not to “be overcome by evil, ” but to ” overcome evil with good.”

I've noticed in your posts that you seem to be a mighty bitter man when it comes to Christianity.

Wow skinner. That makes sense. In that context yes, love your enemy

So if we all love are enemies who will stop the enemy fro. Murdering us all? So one has to stand up and say enough. I look at it as if I have to sacrifice my soul for my kids and all of y'alls guess I will then. I cant love some one who wants to destroy me. I cant pray that they will just go away and leave me be and believe it. I can pray for the strength to will and help others that may not be able to help them selves.

, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I said Luke but I meant Mark.

Some seem to think that to love your enemies means you have to be a pacifist, that when someone belts your wife in the face you can't do anything about it, that if someone rapes your wife you should just shake the guys hand. That's bizarre. God loves the whole world, yet punished many people for their sins. He killed people for their sins all the time. He wiped out nations, he made people go crazy, and he drowned armies. He even made a couple drop dead for lying about how much they sold something for. Yet he still loved the whole world, in fact he loved them so much he sent his son to take the punishment that they deserved.

As I stated I'm glad you joined in on the conversation. The Bible says there is time for war, and no I dont believe killing in war is a sin. Murder is a sin. Murder and killing in a time of war are two things.

What is your point of this thread lucygoose

Read it too. All the gospels, epistles, etc etc.

Sometimes I even try to make sense of Leviticus.

Hate to tell you this... but the Nuns and priests arent all thet Credible...No Authority of the Bible in my mind throws away the half that they want.

Hahaha,atta boy.My son has my 3 year old grand son making mean eyebrows and saying get off my lawn.Cracks me up.

Love is not mushy gushy warm sit-in-a-circle-and-sing-kumbaya feeling. Love is not a feeling or emotion at all. Love is an action, it's a way of treating people. And we're to treat them differently than how the world treats them. What exactly that means, I'm not totally sure. But it definitely doesn't mean that to love someone, you have to be their best friend. I out can love a homeless person by letting them starve and shiver on a cold night so they finally seek real help. You can love a drug addict by letting them rot in their addiction so they can hit rock bottom. You can love the guy that belts you wife in the face, or rapes her, by beating him to a bloody pulp so he sees the error of his ways. You can love the people that bomb you by showing them that evil deeds result in their country being destroyed. Love is sometimes rough sometimes it's not pretty.

It's easy to pull out a verse and build on it. What about 2 Timothy when the Apostle Paul writes to Timothy from prison in Rome. He tells him to stay away from bad people. Or in 2 Corinthians 6:14 when Paul tells Corinth to not team up with unbelievers. 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Paul says to stay away from bad people, and so on. My point is, define what love Jesus is talking about, I don't believe he in no way means be a door mat. I think he, and Paul mean to let your light shine so it may bring others to the fold. It doesn't mean you have to hang with them, which is written. Secondly, to bolster that, he gave discernment.

Nothing more than something to think about. Iron sharpens iron and men sharpen men, right? It's good for men (and women) to talk about these difficult to figure out subjects, we can build each other up, even if we don't agree.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I agree with this 100%

Why is it better to pluck out your eye according to Jesus?

I agree with you."men"decided to remove many scriptures that did not alighn with what they wanted you to believe.Thats why I try to have an open mind when it comes to the Bible,,but can still use it as a guideline.

Every Day upstateNY I pray as a believer to help me do better tomorrow
My salvation is clear and on faith but we're a work in progress

We can get some clarification from God someday when we die.

Well since I'm not important enough to be a good martyr I figure to be a living sacrifice is acceptable to God. When things descend past the living part then the hair raises on the back of my neck and the self-defense mode kicks in.

X2. I can’t see how anyone could vote for a Dumocrat after seeing how they hate and obstruct everything recently. They care nothing about the people or the country, only their own hunger for power and control of the ignorant

You can still love (show compassion) to someone in your sites...that doesn’t mean you won’t pull the trigger. Wounding someone doesn’t show compassion...headshots do.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

ad·ver·sar·y
/ˈadvərˌserē/
noun
synonyms: opponent, rival, enemy, foe, nemesis, antagonist, combatant, challenger, contender, competitor, opposer, fellow contestant; opposition, competition;



Are we to love the devil as well?

James 1:19-20 is another good verse on reacting to our "enemies".

I believe from the context of the scripture that when it speaks of loving our enemy that its is referring to our fellow mankind

The same reason you should pass on one that refuses to return peace unto you.

We had a neighbor that had an old cat named "Sputnik". One day the March wind caught the door and cut Sputniks tail off. It was an act of God and as a young man I was just an observer.

Then why did it say adversary and not your brother or fellow man?

Wait don’t answer that.

We can’t understand the Bible and need scholars to tell us what it means.

We get clarification every day if we take the time to acknowledge it.Just look at your kids,,or grandkids,,or just smoke billowing out of your chimney when its cold out.Thats all the clarification I need.

Why are you here? Really, why? You are on a site that for the most part is very Christian, very conservative and extremely pro American yet every post you make is the exact opposite. So why are you here? The things we enjoy, hunting, trapping, fishing, the outdoors among other activities are rooted in the basic concept of the beginning of our country yet you always disagree. Why are you here?

2 Peter 1:20-21
But know this first of all, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

To stir the pot

No. When Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus whipped him with the word of God, he said it was written. Jesus whipped him but didn't try to convert him because Satan's fate had and is sealed.

So ask yourself why would there be contradictions in the Bible?

The passage comes post satan’s whipping. This identifies him as still a viable threat, aka enemy.

Yes, and it doesn't matter, his fate to eternity in the lake of fire had been sealed, that's my opinion anyway.

Hobbie
You will have to be more specific, I've not encountered any yet.

The original language in the verse in Peter for enemy is antidikos, meaning one who accuses, such as an opponent in a lawsuit. The word for enemy in the verse in Matthew is ekthros,one who hates you. It's good when you have a word used in two different places to look at the original language, you can often gain a lot of context that way. In Matthew Jesus is telling us to love people that hate us. In Peter the word enemy or adversary refers to how Satan accuses us in front of God.

Beat me to it. I have my Strongest Strong's Concordance out

Hobbie,,the Bible was written by men,not God.To the best of their ability,,but still written by man.

You know what I would love right now,, a piece of pizza,,see yous after I do that.

That's the type of argument you see in Bible Deniers 101.

les had that copyrighted and you owe him 5 bucks

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness

I’ll start with an easy one.

Luke 23-32-43

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[b] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[c]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Matthew 27- 38-44

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

You believe he can create the world around us but he cant inspire his creation to write his perfect world? Surely you jest my brother?

So it doesn’t mean what it says? How can that be. Surely God knew not everybody would not get the decoder ring?

Check went out to Clint today sorry.

"In those days, in the Jewish culture, there was an insult where you would smack someone."

PASkinner, are you saying the New Testament applied only to its time and place? You are saying that the plain meaning of the text should be ignored, in favor of an interpretation based on Jewish culture of 2,000 years ago? Sort of like arguing the plain meaning of the Second Amendment doesn't apply, that we should look at the original intent to allow muskets, not ARs.

If you want Jesus' words to apply to our time and place, you can't make the argument you're making. (But it is comforting to know I can slap my slaves without being fined or jailed!)

"Mistranslation of Matthew 5:39 has created a theological contradiction. But, when this saying is understood Hebraically, rather than contradict, it harmonizes beautifully with the rest of Scripture. Our response to evil has to be resistance! It is morally wrong to tolerate evil. Our response to a “hot-headed” neighbor, on the other hand, must be entirely different. His anger will only be temporary if we respond in a biblical manner:"

There you go again, with the original Hebraic intent. Doesn't any part of this Bible apply to 21st century America? If not, whom do we trust to translate it for us?

Your argument that we should not tolerate evil, an attack by a murderer or enemy in wartime, makes sense--as a survival doctrine. I don't see how you can square that doctrine with Jesus' teachings because it's so easy to define "evil" as being any force that opposes your own wishes.

I think Jesus meant what he said. He said many controversial, revolutionary things. They are controversial now, just as in His own time.

I don't see how you can say you follow Jesus, while reserving the right to define "evil" for yourself--anyone who disagrees with you on a political issue is bad, and therefore deserving of slaps. That's certainly the attitude of some who post here.

Jim

If an accident happened on the highway and there was 4 witnesses which would be more believable? If 4 witnesses had an identical description of the accident word for word or if all 4 witnesses had a different version and their descriptions were not identical but in general all had the same conclusion.

The 4 gospels while not identical reach to the same place.

Yes, it means what it says, I don't think it's misleading or a homonym. As mentioned earlier, Jesus did not try to convert Satan when he could have. The Archangel Michael didn't cross him or try to covert him either when they were having words about Moses' body. He simply said, "the Lord rebuke you". My point is, Satan is not a mortal man and "enemy" is enemy but on a different plane.

Hobbie, it says what it means, but it wasn't written in English originally. Those sections we're talking about were probably written in arimaic or Greek originally. Translation isn't exact. Translators don't translate words for words, they translate ideas for ideas. The word enemy can mean different things. Maybe a better example would be the word love. The Greeks had like four different words for love; Eros, agape, phileo, and porneo. We as English speakers would say we love our wife, we love our kids, and we love our best friend. But a Greek would say he porneos and Eros and agapes his wife, he agapes his kids, and he phileos his best friend. We use the word love to express many different ideas, the Greeks had a word for each type of love. In the same way, we use the word enemy for all types of enemy, the original language had many different ways of expressing different types of enemies.

Jesus called his followers to love their enemies, etc, etc..
Jesus doesn't expect people who don't follow him follow his commands. That would be rather pointless.
Trump does not claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ, so therefore, it doesn't surprise me if he doesn't agree. That still doesn't mean he can't be a good president though.

I like it and you are getting there but the claim is the witnesses were all told/inspired/coached on what to say.

No contradiction at all. Matthew was just hard of hearing.

I believe its quite probable that at the beginning of the Crucifixion both men mocked Jesus but after seeing Jesus's response to his tormentors one realized who Jesus was and repented of his sin. Both accounts can be true there for not contradicting each other. You are assuming both accounts report the complete accounts of the Crucifixion but rather they only testify about part of what took place.

Also you have to take in account the times and what was going on for understanding. It was when Nero was going all wacko, The great persecution. Peter was telling Christians that when they are down and out is when Satan likes to pounce.

It is wrong to tolerate evil, whether one believes the Bible or not

Who defines "evil"? If you say the individual decides it for themself, then what about the sociopath?

Jim

Loving your enemies, also includes capitalizing Trump and addressing him as President Trump, as you capitalized Jesus and Arthur Brooks.

If you are sincerely interested in following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, then learn what it means to love your enemies,to forgive your enemies, and to pray for those who spitefully use you.

To love is not to accept that which is evil, but to shine the light of prayer on your enemies and forgive them. Forgiveness again is not condoning evil, but forgiveness hands your enemies over to God to avenge you for the wrongs they have done. For a Christian, the path to repentance is excruciating in the emotional turmoil. What Christ teaches is to bring evil people before God, turn them over to God, for God to deal with them, in all their hypocrisy, troubling them day and night. God states He will give no rest to the wicked.

The reality of loving your enemies, is not being degraded in doing things which will harm you and most likely be illegal in revenge, but trusting God to deal with people who are at war with His Way and Will. God's Love also involves fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, rather than leave people who will never repent to degrade further. There are far too many ignorant people judging others when they are ignorant of what the Bible teaches a Christian to live by.

Amen!

Revelations 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of this prophecy of this book; if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book

I agree. If man defines morals then the left is right in that there is no truth.

That is very true. And by His righteousness justice must be served. But He loved mankind enough to offer an atonement, a gift. It is each individuals CHOICE to accept the redemptive gift or not. He doesn’t force anyone to. It is of their free will to decide which eternal path they want as by our sin nature we all deserve eternal separation from the Holy Father. It isn’t based upon what is done in their lives. As the Bible clearly says that all fall short, but because of a deep love, what was done for us on the cross of Calvary, our debt can be paid. The sad part is that whether a person chooses to believe it or not, it is what is, and if they wait to be face to face with the Holy Creator it is too late, as it is the one sin that cannot be forgiven. That is why it takes faith, believing without seeing. The question then becomes why would a loving Father send His only son to die, and then let those that turn their back on His sacrifice still receive forgiveness... that would not be just.

I do not love my enemies.

Yep that about sums it up for me as well

Matt 5:29
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into (Gehenna).

Gehenna is the original word used translated to "he ll".

Gehanna was a trash dump outside of town that was always burning.

If your had committed a sin, sentenced to death, this is were you might end up.

Not a place where you would want to end up.

Gehenna


There several different words translated to he ll. All have different meanings. Some mean simply the grave. Some a trash dump where the dead are taken. Translators were just applying their understanding of the afterlife when they used that word.



The bible is very clear that those who are dead sleep, awaiting a resurrection. All but Christ.

Where was Lazarus the four days he was dead? At the pearly gates playing golf, strumming a harp?

Bet that was a bummer when he had to ride the elevator back down to earth.

The wages of sin is DEATH.. Not perpetual fiery torture.

You could show me several scriptures that could be interpreted as the heaven/he ll understanding.

But you would have to ignore the multiple scriptures that say plainly the dead sleep, awaiting a resurrection.

You would think a creator of universes would have a set of instructions to live by that were plain and easy to comprehend. That those instructions would be the same in every culture. That there would be no riddles or allegory. That there would be no debate, as the proper way to live would not require interpretation. IF there is a creator I don't believe the bible is the instruction manual. People do not even agree on translation let alone what it means.

Every human culture in the world has made up stories to insure loyalty to tribal leaders/shaman, to explain things unknowable, to ease the grief of losing loved ones, and aid people to accept their own mortality.

EVERY religion I am aware of is filled with wild stories of things that happened long ago but do not happen now. Of people so special they escaped horrible deaths, were given great rich's etc. Of monsters and evil spirits that one can only be protected from through ritual and magic.

This is an excellent explanation for a man writing a book however in the company of a divine inspired doctrine argument, it lends itself to the exploitation that such lack of attention, to the voice of God, of this magnitude, is permissible.

If a Christian is wrong...they've lived a good life . One enjoyed with their faith.

Then at death They are saved, by Grace through Christ.


If a Non believer dies and There Was God and His Son He gave up for salvation...Then the agnostic goes to hades.

Id just rather have those chances.

So just some irrelevant information in the Bible. This is why we need Biblical scholars, to tell us what is relevant and what is not?

God gives a believer discernment: "(in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual guidance and understanding." end quote.

330trapper, as i understand it you have to believe to avoid the big bbq. if your just hedging your bets, is that belief or are you counting on the magic ceremony's?

No...Faith


True Faith That God Sent His Son for our salvation.

Faith is in the heart not head ( book learning . Faith comes by hearing the Word of God

In this Life there are no perfect people....Christian s inclided

Imma go ahead and turn my cheek to a proper stock weld, obtain a correct sight picture, pause breath in the same place I always do, and squeeeeeeze.

I don't hate or love anyone, meaning enemy, when I have perception or information that they are an "enemy" of mine. Like any other obstacal in life it needs dealt with properly.

That can be and in fact usually is best handled by separating one's self from it/them and the situation. It's incredible how things tend to balance themselves out and I get to watch.

Emotion needs kept in check at that point IME and the ramification(s) of any action evaluated accurately.

I assure you that my response(s) will be constitutional.

All of which is nothing more than simply my opinion.

The beauty of this country is that we have the LIBERTY to be and do as WE SEE FIT for ourselves.

I'm proud to have served to continue to make this possible, it definitely wasn't for the money.

really? doesn't sound like it.

We should all try to love our enemies. Being human, we often fail. It is hard to see the acts of some fellow humans and not let hate creep into our hearts.
We should all do our best to reject hate as it is counter to the teachings of Jesus. If a Christian does not try to follow the teaching of Christ, is he truly a Christian?
We are to pray for those who persecute us.

I thought it was good that Mr. Brooks reminded those at the prayer breakfast and all of us of this teaching.

The bible states that there are two deaths. The one you mention is the first death. The second time around is judgement to eternity. Eternity involves a lake of fire according to the bible.
Now personally, I believe there is no greater h ell than eternal separation from God. The lake of fire would be the easy part.

Danny keep on Dancing ...what good does it to just analytically snatch on and always "Prove" or try to that a Christian is a hypocrite. If you had Zero belief in Christianity then you wouldnt fight so much against it.
Christian s are A Work in progress with Faith in The Trinity.

Just like there are no contradictions, there is no irrelevant information. Are all tools in a tool box useful for ever job?

That’s not a very good analogy since nobody has every pulled a 9/16ths wrench out of a tool box only to be told by a mechanic that it’s actually a hammer. lol

There are contradictions in the Bible and they are there for those that would have the Bible become the place of their faith and not Christ.

May I ask what are you basing this assertion on? The one about the Bible becoming your faith and not Jesus.

Im just pointing out how ridiculous it is to tell someone to hedge their bets. Try to scare in them into joining a cult. Hypocrisy never entered MY mind.

It’s the only answer as to why they are in there.

Hobbie
Thanks for the response. I was curious.

NP

That's an interesting take on that Hobbie. I would think the opposite. I've known people that have seen contradictions, indiscretions, and figured that the men who wrote the New Testament could not of been guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore walked away from God. Taking into account the four Gospels were written by four different men, after death, and spanning at least 35 years, it does give credence to a non believers view that if in fact they we're guided by the Holy Spirit, then why the different stories.

Another thing is the three documented stories that are basically the same as the flood and Noah, but predate the Bible.

Have seen people that never had time for church and God that when they became older started talking about God, always seemed like they started to think about their time ending and were hedging their bets.

Is walking away from God because of a book any different than walking away from Him because of Jim Beam? A woman? Selfishness?

I will say based of personal studies I have yet to see what I believe is a contradiction in the Bible. I believe that if the great deceiver can get us to doubt parts of God's word that in the future it will be easier for him to get others to doubt the Whole Word.

Which deceiver are you speaking of?

Yes, I do see a difference in those scenario's. Why would you think that some people would have faith in the Bible, but not Christ?

The same reason congregations misplace their faith in pastors and walk away from God because it came to light that he was human.

If it came to light that the Bible was written by men just making note of events that happen in their lifetime would you walk away from the things you have experienced?

Are there people that are saved because they believed what they have heard, understood the importance of their personal relationship with Him yet have never seen a Bible?

In the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh. Putting your faith in the Word is the same as putting your faith in Christ. They're both the same.

Here is a question for everybody. Is concealed carry a form of deception?

Really???

I suppose contradictions has a lot to do with the person perceiving. One might say tulips and daisies are different but another might say yes but they are both flowers.

Its just my opinion but I think God allows different denominations as a protection against such as what was happening at the time of the Tower of Babel. Its a protection against a one world government even in the church body. Many feel they have to be on the side of right, therefore if you don't believe the same as me you must be wrong.

Some people just have to be right all the time. A married couple was about to split up and went to a counselor. The husband was persistent that in the one part that they was having problems with, that he was right. Since no amount of debate would convince him that maybe he could be wrong, then the counselor asked him if he wanted his wife or if he wanted to be right!

The Gospel according to.........wait for it............John.

Is the question too difficult?

Lol, have a good one.

I know you folks think I’m being obtuse but I find it hard to believe that most of you having experienced an incident of divine nature in your life would throw that away simply because the Bible may have been just an account of events.

You too Catch.

I have no problem with thinking of it as a history book, but seems to take man's hand out of it especially the parts of history that are written a thousand years in advance.

That would hold water if there were specifics regarding time of events.

Based on what is happening currently anyone of us could write a book with “prediction of events” and many would happen.

Really???[/quote]

Is the question too difficult?
[/quote]


Your probably the only on this thread that thinks that's why he didn't answer the question, I believe that you even know that isnt the reason.

Is there great harm in answering it?

So is it ok if I use your name when I say Hobbie said that in Isaiah 9: 6 it was just something Isaiah threw out there with a chance that maybe if we wait long enough it might happen. My self I don't put much faith in random chance.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I apologize in advance everyone. I do my best to refrain from posting anything ever, especially when it comes to religion and politics. The internet is really a terrible place to actually discuss either. As you can see after 8 pages of this, it is however a wonderful place to argue about them, which, I assume, is why politics is (or was?) a banned topic. After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I just can't bring myself not to say anything at this point. There are so many common misconceptions floating around out here. We need to clear the air a bit, so I'm going to toss a few grenades into the room and leave you all to reckon with them. Just to be clear, I'm addressing those of us that call ourselves Christians, who have heard what Jesus said, reckoned with it, and are doing our best to follow him. If that's not your thing, that's fine. I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm not telling you how to live. I have no beef with you, and I certainly have no intention of arguing with anyone here.

First, we Christians believe that the Bible tells our story, and if we're thinking about it appropriately, we view our lives as being a part of that story. We believe that it tells us the truth about ourselves and our world and that it was inspired by God, but it didn't fall from the sky on golden tablets. It was absolutely written with human hands and has a long and complicated history. There is no reason to deny it. It's well worth acknowledging or even studying.

Second, in light of the Bible's long and complicated history, there have been many, many misconceptions surrounding it, and there have been for a long time. It is an ancient text written in other languages and in a totally different culture. There are parts of it that are downright bizarre. If we can work to understand the meaning that the authors are trying to convey with all those strange and difficult stories, I find the story very compelling. Others don't, and that's fine. The biggest misconception that I've seen floating around on this thread (and in our churches too, for that matter) is that Christianity is a set of rules, and if you obey you'll go to heaven when you die or suffer eternal torment if you don't. The biggest problem with this idea is the Bible. There are rules in the Bible, but they were never the point. The idea of heaven as a place for dead spirits is not in the Bible. It's just not. The Bible's conception of heaven is very different. Our western notions of heaven and (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) are based on Greek/Roman ideas (Elysium and Tartarus), not the Bible. The devil as a red, horned beast with a pitchfork is an image that is foreign to the Hebrew Bible. I'm not going to argue about it here. Read the book.

To bring this topic back to the original post, a major theme in story of the Bible is political oppression. Jesus said to love your enemies. If you're calling Jesus your leader, then I think you have to believe that he meant what he said. If you don't, read the story. His political enemies--the church leaders and Roman government, had him executed, and he went willingly to his death. Living in modern America, I doubt any of us will face a situation that dire, but we should still follow his example. Loving your enemy doesn't mean simply being passive, and it certainly doesn't mean being passive aggressive. It means actively seeking to good of another even when they actively pursue your demise. It's standing up for good in defiance of evil even if it costs you your life. It is completely illogical and backwards. It is a radical idea, but a good one, even if it's hard to accomplish.

Careful, doing so surely identifies a misguided faith.

I have had old timers tell me that the The Apocrypha was not inspired but it was history and that I should know it and keep it as history and not to forget it so as not to live it again or at least identify it. So you might say that is concealed carry?

No. The point of the question is so far out there based on the discussion that it's not worth answering

That was your idea not mine!

Nicely done.

I remember a girl in a school shooting that confessed Christ before she was shot.

So I guess if a shooter shows up shooting people in church I should I pray for him before or after the head shot is taken?

So are you accountable for my idea or your faith in it?

I'm only accountable for your sins if i do or condone them. How long does it take for someone to throw out garbage on your trapline before someone else follows suit. How deep does it have to get before you decide this is a problem?

If you do, it is no longer my sin but yours. You certainly are not accountable for my free will to sin.

As for the trapline metaphor, I will pick up the trash each day that I see it and do so as if I were doing it for the Lord and be glad in it.

Turning the other cheek only means your jaw will hurt on BOTH sides!

I dont call Jesus my leader!

Hes the Savior for me AND for you. Unbelief does not - nor will not change that.

I believe and put my Trust in my Savior as the go between to the Father. The Holy spirit convicts and is also the comforter. The 3 in 1 are the Trinity

Wow! Excellent Post!

I think that when we find "contradictions" in the Bible, we should rejoice......because if we do our job and study the contradiction through the Word, then the Holy Spirit will give us a great surprise and make that 'contradiction' crystal clear.