According to the Bible it wasn't "Regional flood

Genesis 7:17-23
(17) Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. (18) The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. (19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. (20) The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. (21) And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. (22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. (23) So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
New King James Version Change your email Bible version

Amid the prevailing violence of the pre-Flood world, God singled out Noah, called him, and began giving him the grace he needed to complete what likely seemed like an impossible assignment. He spent one hundred and twenty years preaching, undertaking the hard labor to build the ark, and enduring the mockery of his neighbors. When the Flood came, he faced torrential rains combined with earthquakes that produced frighteningly huge waves on an endless sea, making him fear for his family's survival. While never knowing a period of absolute calm, he cared for the animals, including the birds sent out to reconnoiter conditions outside. When one did not return, and the ark settled into the soft but stable soil, the lifesaving voyage ended, and the reestablishment of life on earth began in a world of absolute calm dominated by silence.

where is the evidence that happened? where did all the water go? if all the water in our atmosphere condensed into rain and somehow evaporation was halted both ice caps melted completely, how high would the oceans get? im pretty sure denver for example would be dry.

In The beginning. God Created the Heavens and the earth....
Not too hard for God to make that happen.

Why in Wyoming, Montana, yes Denver ...Can you easily find Sea creature fossils Today?

Danny, there have been fossils of sea creatures found on summit of Everest. I've found a coral here, I didn't take it as I was tracking a few bucks on the rez. Plenty of fossils of sea creatures have been found in NM too. I'm sure you've noticed while in NM there are areas that look like the entire area was once covered with water.

Interesting but lineage should trace back thru Noah and I never see or hear of that .
just

Yeah...thats my Gggggggggreat Grandpa

Can anyone say PANGAEA or how about GWONDONALAND? I knew you could.

You already know how those fossils got there. You just won't accept it. Preferring instead to rely on an explanation reached by people who thought the world was flat and could not even conceive of a trip to the moon.

There is clearly different lineages. Europeans have Neanderthal DNA in them. Some Asians have Denosovan and or Neanderthal DNA. Sub Saharan Africans do not have Neanderthal or Denosovan DNA.

So how'd it get there Danny from a big bang that's easier to believe in a big bang and we all crawled out of the muck as a single cell organism and evolved

How long does it take coral to grow? How long does it take beds of oysters and clams to form? There used to be an inland sea where the great plains now resides, this is how we ended up with shark teeth in Montana and Coral in NM.

If i knew i would tell you. I dont know the answer to how life began any more than you do. I thought we were talking about the fable of Noahs ark and the flood? That tale is demonstrably false. Whether you choose to ignore what we do know or not is entirely up to you.

I can vouch for this: found fossils in NM on top of Mesa's at 9-10k ft. while trapping out there!

You want to know my belief Firm belief!

God created
As in Genesis.... but Day 1 was - a time period , hence the layers and development

Day 2 - another time period

Day 3 etc.... etc.. An intelligent being "God" creating all that IS, ....is much more believable than A Bang alone and then us developing from algie

Thats it.. my Belief explained. Did it all develop in Time ...yes by Gods hand

Myself, every president of the United States but Harding, all current royalty in Europe and millions more people can be traced back to Adam through Noah, from Milesius of Spain.

https://www.araltas.com/features/milesius.html

"The descent of the Irish Celts from Adam
1. Adam
2. Seth
3. Enos
4. Cainan
5. Mahalaleel
6. Jared
7. Enoch
8. Methuselah
9. Lamech
10. Noah divided the world amongst his three sons, begotten of his wife Titea: viz., to Shem he gave Asia, within the Euphrates, to the Indian Ocean; to Ham he gave Syria, Arabia, and Africa; and to Japhet, the rest of Asia beyond the Euphrates, together with Europe to Gadea (or Cadiz).
11. Japhet was the eldest son of Noah. He had fifteen sons, amongst whom he divided Europe and the part of Asia which his father had allotted to him.
12. Magog: From whom descended the Parthians, Bactrians, Amazons, etc.; Parthalon, the first planter of Ireland, about three hundred years after the Flood; and also the rest of the colonies that planted there, viz., the Nemedians, who planted Ireland, Anno Mundi three thousand and forty-six, or three hundred and eighteen years after the birth of Abraham, and two thousand one hundred and fifty-three years before Christ. The Nemedians continued in Ireland for two hundred and seventeen years; within which time a colony of theirs went into the northern parts of Scotland, under the conduct of their leader Briottan Maol, from whom Britain takes its name, and not from "Brutus," as some persons believed. From Magog were also descended the Belgarian, Belgian, Firbolgian or Firvolgian colony that succeeded the Nemedians, Anno Mundi, three thousand two hundred and sixty-six, and who first erected Ireland into a Monarchy. [According to some writers, the Fomorians invaded Ireland next after the Nemedians.] This Belgarian of Firvolgian colony continued in Ireland for thirty-six years, under nine of their Kings; when they were supplanted by the Tuatha-de-Danann (which means, according to some authorities, "the people of the god Dan," whom they adored), who possessed Ireland for one hundred and ninety-seven years, during the reigns of nine of their kings; and who were then conquered by the Gaelic, Milesian, or Scotic Nation (the three names by which the Irish people were known), Anno Mundi three thousand five hundred. This Milesian or Scotic Irish Nation possessed and enjoyed the Kingdom of Ireland for two thousand eight hundred and eighty-five years, under one hundred and eighty-three Monarchs; until their submission to King Henry the Second of England, Anno Domini one thousand one hundred and eighty-six.
13. Boath, one of the sons of Magog; to whom Scythia came as his lot, upon the division of the Earth by Noah amongst his sons, and by Japhet of his part thereof amongst his sons.
14. Phoeniusa Farsaidh (or Fenius Farsa) was King of Scythia, at the time when Ninus ruled the Assyrian Empire; and, being a wise man and desirous to learn the languages that not long before confounded the builders of the Tower of Babel, employed able and learned men to go among the dispersed multitude to learn their several languages; who sometime after returning well skilled in what they went for, Phœniusa Farsaidh erected a school in the valley of Senaar, near the city of Æothena, in the forty-second year of the reign of Ninus; whereupon, having continued there with his younger son Niul for twenty years, he returned home to his kingdom, which, at his death, he left to the oldest son Nenuall; leaving to Niul no other patrimony than his learning and the benefit of the said school.
15. Niul, after his father returned to Scythia, continued some time at œothena, teaching the languages and other laudable sciences, until upon report of his great learning he was invited into Egypt by Pharaoh, the King; who gave him the land of Campus Cyrunt, near the Red Sea to inhabit, and his daughter Scota in marriage; from whom their posterity are ever since called Scots; but, according to some annalists, the name "Scots" is derived from the word Scythia. It was this Niul that employed Gaodhal [Gael], son of Ethor, a learned and skilful man, to compose or rather refine and adorn the language, called Bearla Tobbai, which was common to all Niul's posterity, and afterwards called Gaodhilg (or Gaelic), from the said Gaodhal who composed or refined it; and for his sake also Niul called his own eldest son "Gaodhal."
16. Gaodhal (or Gathelus), the son of Niul, and ancestor of Clan-na-Gael, that is, "the children or descendants of Gaodhal". In his youth this Gaodhal was stung in the neck by a serpent, and was immediately brought to Moses, who, laying his rod upon the wounded place, instantly cured him; whence followed the word "Glas" to be added to his named, as Gaodhal Glas (glas: Irish, green; Lat. glaucus; Gr. glaukos), on account of the green scar which the word signifies, and which, during his life, remained on his neck after the wound was healed. And Gaodhal obtained a further blessing, namely-that no venomous beast can live any time where his posterity should inhabit; which is verified in Creta or Candia, Gothia or Getulia, Ireland, etc. The Irish chroniclers affirm that from this time Gaodhal and his posterity did paint the figures of Beasts, Birds, etc., on their banners and shields, to distinguish their tribes and septs, in imitation of the Israelites; and that a "Thunderbolt" was the cognisance in their chief standard for many generations after this Gaodhal.
17. Asruth, after his father's death, continued in Egypt and governed his colony in peace during his life.
18. Sruth, soon after his father's death, was set upon by the Egyptians, on account of their former animosities towards their predecessors for having taken part with the Israelites against them; which animosities until then lay raked up in the embers, and now broke out in a flame to that degree, that after many battles and conflicts wherein most of his colony lost their live, Sruth was forced with the few remaining to depart the country; and, after many traverses at sea, arrived at the Island of Creta (now called Candia), where he paid his last tribute to nature.
19. Heber Scut (scut: Irish, a Scot), after his father's death and a year's stay in Creta, departed thence, leaving some of his people to inhabit the Island, where some of their posterity likely still remain; "because the Island breeds no venomous serpent ever since." He and his people soon after arrived in Scythia; where his cousins, the posterity of Nenuall (eldest son of Fenius Farsa, above mentioned), refusing to allot a place of habitation form him and his colony, they fought many battles wherein Heber (with the assistance of some of the natives who were ill-affected towards their king), being always victor, he at length forced the sovereignty from the other, and settled himself and his colony in Scythia, who continued there for four generations. (Hence the epithet Scut, "a Scot" or "a Scythian," was applied to this Heber, who was accordingly called Heber Scot.) Heber Scot was afterwards slain in battle by Noemus the former king's son.
20. Baouman;
21 Ogaman; and
22. Tait, were each kings of Scythia, but in constant war with the natives; so that after Tait's death his son,
23. Agnon and his followers betook themselves to sea, wandering and coasting upon the Caspian Sean for several (some say seven) years in which time he died.
24. Lamhfionn and his fleet remained at sea for some time, after his father's death, resting and refreshing themselves upon such islands as they met with. It was then the Cachear, their magician or Druid, foretold that there would be no end of their peregrinations and travel until they should arrive at the Western Island of Europe, now called Ireland, which was the place destined for their future and lasting abode and settlement; and that not they but their posterity after three hundred years should arrive there. After many traverses of fortune at sea, this little fleet with their leader arrived at last and landed at Gothia or Geulia-more recently called Lybia, where Carthage was afterwards built; and, soon after, Lamhfionn died there.
25. Heber Glunfionn was born in Gothia, where he died. His posterity continued there to the eighth generation; and were kings or chief rulers there for one hundred and fifty years-some say three hundred years.
26 Agnan Fionn;
27. Febric Glas;
28. Nenuall;
29. Nuadhad;
30. Alladh;
31. Arcadh; and
32. Deag: of these nothing remarkable is mentioned, but that they lived and died kings in Gothia or Getulia.
33. Brath was born in Gothia. Remembering the Druid's prediction, and his people having considerably multiplied during their abode in Geulia, he departed thence with a numerous fleet to seek out the country destined for their final settlement, by the prophecy of Cachear, the Druid above mentioned; and, after some time, he landed upon the coast of Spain, and by strong hand settled himself and his colony in Galicia, in the north of that country.
34. Breoghan (or Brigus) was king of Galicia, Andalusia, Murcia, Castile, and Portugal-all of which he conquered. He built Breoghan's Tower or Brigantia in Galicia, and the city of Brigantia or Braganza in Portugal-called after him; and the kingdom of Castile was then also called after him Brigia. It is considered that "Castile" itself was so called from the figure of a castle which Brigus bore for his Arms on his banner. Brigus sent a colony into Britain, who settled in that territory now known as the counties of York, Lancaster, Durham, Westmoreland, and Cumberland, and, after him were called Brigantes; whose posterity gave formidable opposition to the Romans, at the time of the Roman invasion of Britain.
35. Bilé; was king of those countries after his father's death; and his son Galamh [galav] or Milesius succeeded him. This Bilé had a brother named Ithe.
36. Milesius, in his youth and in his father's life-time, went into Scythia, where he was kindly received by the king of that country, who gave him his daughter in marriage, and appointed him General of his forces. In this capacity Milesius defeated the king's enemies, gained much fame, and the love of all the king's subjects. His growing greatness and popularity excited against him the jealousy of the king; who, fearing the worst, resolved on privately dispatching Milesius our of the way, for, openly, he dare not attempt it. Admonished of the king's intentions in his regard, Milesius slew him; and thereupon quitted Scythia and retired into Egypt with a fleet of sixty sail. Pharaoh Nectonibus, then king of Egypt, being informed of his arrival and of his great valour, wisdom, and conduct in arms, made him General of all his forces against the king of Ethiopia then invading his country. Here, as in Scythia, Milesius was victorious; he forced the enemy to submit to the conqueror's own terms of peace. By these exploits Milesius found great favour with Pharaoh, who gave him, being then a widower, his daughter Scota in marriage; and kept him eight years afterwards in Egypt. During the sojourn of Milesius in Egypt, he employed the most ingenious and able persons among his people to be instructed in the several trades, arts, and sciences used in Egypt; in order to have them taught to the rest of his people on his return to Spain. [The original name of Milesius of Spain was "Galamh" (gall: Irish, a stranger; amh, a negative affix), which means, no stranger: meaning that he was no stranger in Egypt, where he was called "Milethea Spaine," which was afterwards contracted to "Miló Spaine" (meaning the Spanish Hero), and finally to "Milesiius" (mileadh: Irish, a hero; Lat. miles, a soldier).] At length Milesius took leave of his father-in-law, and steered towards Spain; where he arrived to the great joy and comfort of his people; who were much harassed by the rebellion of the natives and by the intrusion of other foreign nations that forced in after his father's death, and during his own long absence from Spain. With these and those he often met; and, in fifty-four battles, victoriously fought, he routed, destroyed, and totally extirpated them out of the country, which he settled in peace and quietness. In his reign a great dearth and famine occurred in Spain, of twenty-six years' continuance, occasioned, as well by reason of the former troubles which hindered the people from cultivating, and manuring the ground, as for want of rain to moisten the earth - but Milesius superstitiously believed the famine to have fallen upon him and his people as a judgment and punishment from their gods, for their negligence in seeking out the country destined for their final abode, so long before foretold by Cachear their Druid or magician, as already mentioned - the time limited by the prophecy for the accomplishment thereof being now nearly, if not fully, expired. To expiate his fault and to comply with the will of his gods, Milesius, with the general approbation of his people, sent his uncle Ithe, with his son Lughaidh [Luy], and one hundred and fifty stout men to bring them an account of those western islands; who, accordingly, arriving at the island since then called Ireland, and landing in that part of it now called Munster, left his son with fifty of his men to guard the ship, and with the rest travelled about the island. Informed, among other things, that the three sons of Cearmad, called Mac-Cuill, MacCeacht, and MacGreine, did then and for thirty years before rule and govern the island, each for one year, in his turn; and that the country was called after the names of their three queens - Eire, Fodhla, and Banbha, respectively: one year called "Eire," the next "Fodhla," and the next "Banbha," as their husbands reigned in their regular turns; by which names the island is ever since indifferently called, but most commonly "Eire," because that MacCuill, the husband of Eire, ruled and governed the country in his turn the year that the Clan-na-Milé (or the sons of Milesius) arrived in and conquered Ireland. And being further informed that the three brothers were then at their palace at Aileach Neid, in the north part of the country, engaged in the settlement of some disputes concerning their family jewels, Ithe directed his course thither; sending orders to his son to sail about with his ship and the rest of his men, and meet him there. When Ithe arrived where the (Danann) brothers were, be was honourably received and entertained by them; and, finding him to be a mail of great wisdom. and knowledge, they referred their disputes to him for decision. That decision having met their entire satisfaction, Ithe exhorted them to mutual love, peace, and forbearance; adding much in praise of their delightful, pleasant, and fruitful country; and then took his leave, to return to his ship, and go back to Spain. No sooner was he gone than the brothers; began to reflect on the high commendations which Ithe gave of the Island; and, suspecting his design of bringing others to invade it, resolved to prevent them, and therefore pursued him with a strong party, overtook him, fought and routed his men and wounded himself to death (before his son or the rest of his men left on ship-board could come to his rescue) at a place called, from that fight and his name, Magh Ithe or "The plain of Ithe" (an extensive plain in the barony of Raphoe, county Donegal); whence his son, having found him in that condition, brought his dead and mangled body back into Spain, and there exposed it to public view, thereby to excite his friends and relations to avenge his murder. [Note: that all the invaders and planters of Ireland, namely, Parthalonians, Neimhedh, the Firbolgs, Tuatha-de-Danann, and Clan-na-Milé, where originally Scythians, of the line of Japbet, who had the language called Bearla-Tobbai or Gaoidhilg [Gaelic] common amongst them all; and consequently not to be wondered at, that Ithe and the Tuatha-de-Danann understood one another without an Interpreter - both speaking the same language, though perhaps with some difference in the accent]. The exposing of the dead body of Ithe had the desired effect; for, thereupon, Milesius made great preparations in order to invade Ireland - as well to avenge his uncle's death, as also in obedience to the will of his gods, signified by the prophecy of Cachear, aforesaid. But, before he could effect that object, he died, leaving the care, and charge of that expedition upon his eight legitimate sons by his two wives before mentioned. Milesius was a very valiant champion, a great warrior, and fortunate and prosperous in all his undertakings: witness his name of "Milesius," given him from the many battles (some say a thousand, which the word "Milé" signifies in Irish as well as in Latin) which he victoriously fought and won, as well in Spain, as in all the other countries and kingdoms be traversed in his younger days. The eight brothers were neither forgetful nor negligent in the execution of their father's command; but, soon after his death, with a numerous fleet well manned and equipped, set forth from Breoghan's Tower or Brigantia (now Corunna) in Galicia, in Spain, and sailed prosperously to the coasts of Ireland or lnis-Fail, where they met many difficulties and various chances before they could land: occasioned by the diabolical arts, sorceries, and enchantments used by the Tuatha-de-Danann, to obstruct their landing; for, by their magic art, they enchanted the island so as to appear to the Milesians or Clan-na-Milé in the form of a Hog, and no way to come at it (whence the island, among the many other names it had before, was called "Muc-Inis or "The Hog Island"); and withal raised so great a storm, that the Milesian fleet was thereby totally dispersed and many of them cast away, wherein five of the eight brothers, sons of Milesius, lost their lives. That part of the fleet commanded by Heber, Heremon, and Amergin (the three surviving, brothers), and Heber Donn, son of Ir (one of the brothers lost in the storm), overcame all opposition, landed safe, fought and routed the three Tuatha-de Danann Kings at Slieve-Mis, and thence pursued and overtook them at Tailten, where another bloody battle was fought; wherein the three (Tuatha-de-Danann) Kings and their Queens were slain, and their army utterly routed and destroyed: so that they could never after give any opposition to the Clan-na-Milé in their new conquest; who, having thus sufficiently avenged the death of their great uncle Ithe, gained the possession of the country foretold them by Cachear, some ages past, as already mentioned. Heber and Heremon, the chief leading men remaining of the eight brothers, sons of Milesius aforesaid, divided the kingdom between them (allotting a proportion of land to their brother Amergin, who was their Arch-priest, Druid, or magician; and to their nephew Heber Donn, and to the rest of their chief commanders), and became jointly the first of one hundred and eighty-three Kings or sole Monarchs of the Gaelic, Milesian, or Scottish Race, that ruled and governed Ireland, successively, for two thousand eight hundred and eighty-five years from the first year of their reign), Anno Mundi three thousand five hundred, to their submission to the Crown of England in the person of King Henry the Second; who, being also of the Milesian Race by Maude, his mother, was lineally descended from Fergus Mór MacEarca, first King of Scotland, who was descended from the said Heremon - so that the succession may be truly said to continue in the Milesian Blood from before Christ one thousand six hundred and ninety-nine years down to the present time. Heber and Heremon reigned jointly one year only, when, upon a difference between their ambitious wives, they quarrelled and fought a battle at Ardeath or Geshill (Geashill, near Tullamore in the King's County), where Heber was slain by Heremon; and, soon after, Amergin, who claimed an equal share in the government, was, in another battle fought between them, likewise slain by Heremon. Thus, Heremon became sole Monarch, and made a new division of the land amongst his comrades and friends, viz.: the south part, now called Munster, he gave to his brother Heber's four sons, Er, Orba, Feron, and Fergna; the north part, now Ulster, he gave to Ir's only son Heber Donn; the east part or Coigeadh, Galian, now called Leinster, be gave to Criomthann-sciath-bheil, one of his commanders; and the west part, now called Connaught, Heremon gave to Un-Mac-Oigge, another of his commanders; allotting a part of Munster to Lughaidh (the son of Ithe, the first Milesian discoverer of Ireland), amongst his brother Heber's sons. From these three brothers, Heber, Ir, and Heremon (Amergin dying without issue), are descended all the Milesian Irish of Ireland and Scotland, viz.: from Heber, the eldest brother, the provincial Kings of Munster (of whom thirty-eight were sole Monarchs of Ireland), and most of the nobility and gentry of Munster, and many noble families in Scotland, are descended. From Ir, the second brother, all the provincial Kings of Ulster (of whom twenty-six were sole Monarchs of Ireland), and all the ancient nobility and gentry of Ulster, and many noble families in Leinster, Munster, and Connaught, derive their pedigrees; and, in Scotland, the Clan-na-Rory - the descendants of an eminent man, named Ruadhri or Roderick, who was Monarch of Ireland for seventy years (viz., from Before Christ 288 to 218). From Heremon, the youngest of the three brothers, were descended one hundred and fourteen sole Monarchs of Ireland: the provincial Kings and Hermonian nobility and gentry of Leinster, Connaught, Meath, Orgiall, Tirowen, Tirconnell, and Clan-na-boy; the Kings of Dalriada; all the Kings of Scotland from Fergus Mór MacEarea, down to the Stuarts; and the Kings and Queens of England from Henry the Second down to tile present time. The issue of Ithe is not accounted among the Milesian Irish or Clan-na-Milé, as not being descended from Milesius, but from his uncle Ithe; of whose posterity there were also some Monarchs of Ireland (see Roll of the Irish Monarchs, infra), and many provincial or half provincial Kings of Munster: that country upon its first division being allocated to the sons of Heber and to Lughaidh, son of Ithe, whose posterity continued there accordingly. This invasion, conquest, or plantation of Ireland by the Milesian or Scottish Nation took place in the Year of the World three thousand Ova hundred, or the next year after Solomon began the foundation of the Temple of Jerusalem, and one thousand six hundred and ninety-nine years before the Nativity of our Saviour Jesus Christ; which, according to the Irish computation of Time, occurred Anno Mundi five thousand one hundred and ninety-nine: therein agreeing with the Septuagint, Roman Martyrologies, Eusebius, Orosius, and other ancient authors; which computation the ancient Irish chroniclers exactly observed in their Books of the Reigns of the Monarchs of Ireland, and other Antiquities of that Kingdom ; out of which the Roll of the Monarchs of Ireland, from the beginning of the Milesian Monarchy to their submission to King Henry the Second of England, a Prince of their own Blood, is exactly collected. [As the Milesian invasion of Ireland took place the next year after the laying of the foundation of the Temple of Jerusalem by Solomon, King of Israel, we may infer that Solomon was contemporary with Milesius of Spain; and that the Pharaoh King of Egypt, who (1 Kings iii. 1,) gave his daughter in marriage to Solomon, was the Pharaoh who conferred on Milesius of Spain the hand of another daughter Scota.] Milesius of Spain bore three Lions in his shield and standard, for the following reasons; namely, that, in his travels in his younger days into foreign countries, passing through Africa, he, by his cunning and valour, killed in one morning three Lions; and that, in memory of so noble and valiant an exploit, he always after bore three Lions on his shield, which his two surviving sons Heber and Heremon, and his grandson Heber Donn, son of Ir, after their conquest of Ireland, divided amongst them, as well as they did the country: each of them. bearing a Lion in his shield and banner, but of different colours; which the Chiefs of their posterity continue to this day: some with additions and differences; others plain and entire as they had it from their ancestors.
The Celts of Ireland descend from three sons of Milesius, (37-1 Heremon, 37-2 Heber and 37-3 Ir) and from his uncle (35-1 Ithe)"

Keith

More or less. Look at the Genesis account of creation and compare it to the BB theory, they're remarkably close to the same thing. God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing...ex nihilo. The BB theory says everything that ever was or ever will be was once condensed into something the size of an orange, maybe smaller. Science is catching up to the Bible.

Just a thought, a dwarf planet sized ice asteroid came into earth gravitational field about 10,000 years ago, deposited that ice at the poles as it broke up, glacier over North America, animals like mastodons and mammoths trapped in ice, no time to migrate south. But melting ice raised water levels, ice at poles changed earth weather, and it rained for weeks. As water receded into low areas like the ocean depths, great canyons were carved in a very short time, again it is speculation, lot easier to believe as a lot of mutations creating complex beings like us.

Good stuff Keith!!!
Thanks... never read that before!

There's more than enough water underground to cover the earth if it all came to the surface

So does the Noah crowd also think the earth is 6000 or so years old?

You're welcome.

If you go to:

https://www.familysearch.org/en/

and enter your grandparents. You may be able to pull up huge numbers of your ancestors. They have more of my ancestors then I could probably look at if I wanted to accomplish anything else in the rest of my life. The farther back you go, the more repeats of the same people you will see in your pedigree. Some people are likely in your written pedigree hundreds of times and in reality many thousands of time. There may be people that let you connect yourself to Adam and Eve. Most of the English, Irish, Scottish, French, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish kings do and they are very inbred.

The DNA evidence does appear to show that we are all out of one woman and possibly a few men at one point and that there were population crashes where the population went down to small numbers of people. There is definitely some truth in the Bible.

The older information was mostly passed down by word of mouth. There are most likely some errors.

Keith

I'm pretty sure some of you guys could trace your lineage back to the neanderthals

If the last of humanity ended up on a boat how did we end up having populations with various amounts of archaic humanoid DNA? How did Europeans end up with Neanderthal DNA and Sub Saharan Africans did not? How do Sub Saharan Africans end up with Archaic DNA that Europeans do not have?

[quote=330-Trapper]In The beginning. God Created the Heavens and the earth....
Not too hard for God to make that happen.

Why in Wyoming, Montana, yes Denver ...Can you easily find Sea creature fossils Today?[/quote



Here's my un- educated guess as to why fossils are found in the mountains you ask about...

Many years ago, longer ago than the Bible claims and before they were mountains, they were below sea level. They are our "newest" mountains on this continent.

Because the science of DNA is the work of the devil.

Thats another thread Pat :

Amazing Keith

https://youtu.be/82j1IqwA6P0

I think the Hebrews likely borrowed most of their oldest history. I think there was a large flood, that killed lots of people, but definitely not all. Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptians, Yazidis and more all have the same story.

The Neanderthal genes were picked up by Asians and Europeans after our common ancestors left Africa, by interbreeding with Neanderthals.

Sub Saharan Africans interbred with non homosapien, homo species after the ancestors of Asians and Europeans left Africa.

The concept of world was different in the past. The Scadanavian people believed in 9 worlds. I have people in my pedigree, from most of the 9 worlds including Elfheim, Jotunheim and Valhalla. I am positive they were not elves, giants and gods, though it is pretty cool to be traceably descended from Odin. I think worlds referred to isolated kingdoms rather than another planet, especially when you read the descriptions in the Sagas.

Keith

WoW!
Heresy ! The sun revolves around the earth! Only devil worshipers would say the sun is at the center.
Just wow.
I say a prayer for you that you don’t need genome mapping (DNA) to fight cancer or some other genetic disease
Hopefully you were being sarcastic BC

You can see how that does not jive with the Noah's ark story.

Parts do jive up.

Remember it was much harder to travel back then. People had no concept of how big the earth truly is.

The arc had no means of propulsion. It went where the water pushed it. It is possible that they floated for 40 days and 40 nights with no sight of land. It is impossible that they fit two of every animal or more on it.

Keith

The "mitochondrial Eve," to which this claim refers, is the most recentcommon female ancestor, not the original female ancestor. There wouldhave been other humans living earlier and at the same time. The mtDNAlineages of other women contemporary with her eventually died out.Mitochondrial Eve was merely the youngest common ancestor of alltoday's mtDNA. She may not even have been human.


2. The same principles find that the most recent human male commonancestor ("Y-chromosome Adam") lived an estimated 84,000 years afterthe "mitochondrial Eve" and also came from Africa (Hawkes 2000;Underhill et al. 2000; Yuehai et al. 2001).


3. The results assume negligible paternal inheritance of mitochondrialDNA, but that assumption has been called into question. Male mtDNAresides in the tail of the sperm; the tail usually does not enter theegg that the sperm fertilizes, but rarely a little bit does. It isalso possible that there is some recombination of mtDNA betweenlineages, which would also affect the results (Awadalla et al. 1999;Eyre-Walker et al. 1999). But these challenges have themselves beenquestioned (Kivisild et al. 2000).

Links:
Kunchithapadam, Krishna, 1995, 2000. What, if anything, is aMitochondrial Eve? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

Bottom line is, you either believe the Bible as to how old the earth is or you believe science. They are too far apart to believe both.

I believe in a catastrophic flood, I even believe it wiped out much of humanity living along the coast and most of the evidence probably is under water since the water levels are now much higher.

Likely cause of the flood was a asteroid slamming the North American ice sheet around 10,000 years ago.

In the Beginning...

With God all things are possible

Our beliefs are similar on most of this subject matter.

Keith

So Keith...now not only are you descended from "the pilgrims", but also from Noah and Odin? By chance, do you prefer Dos Equis as well?

What are the chances that this website tends to splash some colorful historical references in to keep up traffic on the site? It would be interesting to see what someone else's history would contain.

"Sub Saharan Africans interbred with non homosapien, homo species after the ancestors of Asians and Europeans left Africa." -KeithC

Is this your way of publicly stating on the internet that you believe Africans interbred with primates? Asking for a friend...

Yes

I do

https://youtu.be/aIYZjclfg9Q
https://youtu.be/3AomTKRLB_4

No matter what evidence is presented you will believe in the bible stories and that is okay. I personally think there is more to be gained from the bible by not taking it literally, I believe the stories are parables or metaphors and offer much more substance if taken as such.

Here a thought for the climate change folks. Not to hyjack your thread!

No matter what we do as man in regards to pollution:. Mankind has at the very least 1007 years left on this Earth!

Not with "primates" as you are thinking of them, rather other humanoids that are now extinct. Example, all Europeans have Neanderthal DNA, Neanderthals were Humanoids who likely hunted with ranged weapons, buried their dead, made art and practiced religion.

Sub Saharan Africans interbred with different now extinct humanoids though we know much less about that branch.

Homosapiens, AKA people, are primates. Some African homosapiens did breed with non homosapien species of homos. It was on PBS again just a few weeks ago. It has been scientifically proven as fact. European and Asian homosapiens bred with Neanderthals another species of homo. It's also been proven scientifically as fact. Just because we are hybrids does not mean we are any less.

www.familysearch.org is a very well respected and well vetted website.

I''ll put up my numbers and you can search my pedigree if you want me to take the time to look at it.

My maternal grandfather LTHG-9LS.

My maternal grandmother LTHL-5V9.

You will find several thousands kings and queens, lots of emperors and saints and a few gods in my pedigree too. Millions of other people are descended from many of them too. They are not just my ancestors.

Keith

How old does the Bible say the earth is?

Lol

What calenders do we use?

Anthropologically speaking....I'm up to date on the topic. Which is why I asked the question using the exact words I did. You did not use the word "some" in your original statement, causing it to read very different. Since you are such an expert after watching a few PBS shows, I'm sure you're also aware of how much humanoid history is still a mystery and the vast amount of hypothesized suggestions as to how those links are filled. I was stunned to see you had now solved these and shared them on Tman.

I absolutely do not have the time nor interest to read about your "pedigree". I'm curious if you literally believe the things you say regarding your ancestry?

Was There No Rain Before the Flood?
by Dr. Tommy Mitchell on October 19, 2010; last featured January 8, 2013
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Some Christians claim that there was no rain before the Flood; however, as Dr. Tommy Mitchell shows us, a close examination of Scripture does not bear this out.

Some Christians claim that there was no rain before the Flood. Many of them make this statement quite dogmatically as if it were obvious from a reading of the biblical text. However, a close examination of Scripture does not bear this out.

A Biblical Analysis
Proponents of the “no-rain” view refer to Genesis 2 to support their position. Genesis 2:5–6 states that “the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground” (emphasis added).

From this passage, all that can really be said is that no rain had fallen up to that time—that is, prior to the creation of man. Remember, Genesis 2 is primarily a detailed recap of Day Six of Creation Week. The passage describes the environment before Adam was created. This mist may have been one of the primary methods that God used to hydrate the dry land He created on Day Three. Furthermore, while this mist was likely the watering source for that vegetation throughout the remainder of Creation Week, the text does not require it to be the only water source after Adam’s creation.

Some argue that this mist eliminated the need for rain until the time of the Flood. However, presence of the mist prior to Adam’s creation does not preclude the existence of or the need for rain after he was created.

Genesis 2:5–6 reveals that before the Sixth Day of Creation Week, God had watered the plants He made with a mist, but had not yet caused rain or created a man to till the ground. To demand that rain didn’t happen until after the Flood from this passage has no more logical support than to claim, from the passage, that no one farmed until after the Flood.

Water Cycle
Another often-overlooked aspect of this argument is that rain is an integral component of the water cycle. The term water cycle refers to the physical processes of water evaporation, cloud formation, and precipitation (rain, snow, etc.) that continually recycle the world’s water supply.

The water cycle, being powered as it is by the sun’s energy, is intimately tied to many other aspects of the earth’s climate. While we cannot be dogmatic about the details of the pre-Flood environment, we can be certain that the sun and seas were present (Genesis 1:10, 15). Therefore, there is no reason to insist that this normal environmental process was not in operation before the Flood.

Things Not Seen?
Another passage often cited is Hebrews 11:7 in which we learn that “by faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark.” Some assert that “things not seen” means rain, implying that no one had ever seen rain before Noah’s Flood. However, the passage more likely is referring to the impending catastrophic global Flood—certainly something not yet seen, not imaginable to anyone, and far more needful of a warning than a nice spring shower!

WE SHOULD USE CAUTION IN MAKING ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS ABOUT THAT ENVIRONMENT, AS THERE ARE MANY THINGS ABOUT THE PRE-FLOOD WORLD THAT WE CANNOT KNOW WITH CERTAINTY.
It is fascinating to speculate about the pre-Flood environment. We would expect it to differ from today’s environment. Both the cataclysmic forces with which God produced the Flood and the great changes in the surface of the earth in the aftermath of the Flood—breaking open the fountains of the deep, for instance, with volcanic activity, disturbance of tectonic plates with reconfiguration of land masses, and deepening of the oceans to accommodate the floodwaters—would result in permanent changes in the world’s topography and climate. However, we should use caution in making absolute statements about that environment, as there are many things about the pre-Flood world that we cannot know with certainty.

Rainbow
Well, then, how about the rainbow? Didn’t God specially create the never-before-seen rainbow as a sign of His promise? Not necessarily. In Genesis 9:13, God said, “I do set my bow in the cloud,” and the fact that God does not imply that He had never set a rainbow in the clouds before but only that, from now on, the rainbow—appearing as it so often does as rain is ending—would henceforth have a special significance as a token (reminder 1) of God’s promise to never again send a worldwide Flood.

Conclusion
While we cannot prove that there was rain before the Flood, to insist that there was not (and even to deride those who think otherwise) stretches Scripture beyond what it actually says.

There are some arguments that Christians should avoid because of their absurdity and some we should avoid being dogmatic about because they are not truly supportable from Scripture. The “no-rain” argument is in the latter category, and as such, it is an argument Christians should not use.

Footnotes
Assigning special significance to familiar things is common in Scripture. For instance, the Israelites had certainly eaten lamb before the first Passover and Jesus had no doubt eaten bread with his disciples before the first “Lord’s supper,” but those activities acquired special significance as symbols of God’s intervention.

Ohh, there's a catch to the years?

Do yuns believe there were millions of Mayans in Mexico, millions of Egyptions, millions of Incas and millions of Aztecs thousands of years ago, shortly after this flood?

I never used the word "all" or other inclusive language either.

The same information on human origins is also in many scientific journal articles. It is main stream enough to be on PBS now.

If you read what I wrote, you saw that I posted,

"The older information was mostly passed down by word of mouth. There are most likely some errors."

Keith

Is it true that after 10 generations the chance that any DNA could come from any particular ancestor is way less than 1% or maybe even.01%?

Keith.....

I wrote a reply and deleted it. I have no desire to argue on the internet.

Whether intentional or not, your "interbreeding" comment flirts a fine line with skewed Morton skull-size data and other institutionally racist comments. You, of course, would not have meant it that way, but this discourse sets a platform often used by those who do.

I will say that you discussing your "pedigree" is some of the most arrogant garbage I've seen anyone post on the internet in a long time.

I will not direct any posts at you and please do the same for me.

Origin of races
https://youtu.be/NCYiJtHIwdc

How Many Races Did God Create?
Creation Basics
by Dr. Tommy Mitchell on April 1, 2014; last featured February 15, 2015
Also available in Español and Português
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Some people think the Bible justifies their racist attitudes. Yet when we examine what the Bible says about the origin of different people groups, we find a different story.

Science Confirms The BibleShop Now
It’s easy to see that people come in all shapes and sizes. Some are short, some are tall, some have red hair, some have brown hair, some have big noses . . . well, you get the idea. It’s an amazing variety of people.

Despite this variety, we tend to group people according to one or more physical features they share in common. These groups are often called “races,” and the features that define them, “racial characteristics.”

Many people treat others differently, depending on these supposed racial characteristics. They believe those differences are more than just skin deep and have implications for their value as human beings, and even their place on the “evolutionary ladder.” Is that justifiable? How many “races” of people are there? How did they come to be, and do these differences justify prejudice?

A Biblical Basis
God’s Word settles this issue. There is only one race of people. This is clear from the history found in Genesis.

In the beginning God created the first man, Adam. Then He created the first woman, Eve, from the man’s side. Adam and Eve were our original parents, made in the image of God. All humans can be traced back to these two people. This is made abundantly clear in Genesis 3:20, where Adam said that Eve “was the mother of all living.”

So, if we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, we should all look pretty much the same, right? How can we explain all the differences in people?

The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11 describes a time when humans rebelled against God by settling at Babel and refusing to spread out in the world. Because of this, God confused their language, and groups of people separated and moved away from one another.

AS A CONSEQUENCE OF BABEL, THE PEOPLE GROUPS BECAME GENETICALLY ISOLATED.
As a consequence of Babel, the people groups could not easily mix. They became genetically isolated, meaning that they married and had offspring primarily within their particular group. As the years passed, each group developed its own culture and ways of doing things. Genetically isolated, certain physical traits became more prominent in each group. These ethnic characteristics are wrongly considered racial characteristics; but there really is only one race, the human race. All of these people were simply people.

Skin Color
Let’s use skin color to illustrate the process.

The pigment primarily responsible for everyone’s skin color is melanin. Ultimately, everyone has the same skin color—we just have varying skin tones. The two forms of melanin are eumelanin (brown to black) and pheomelanin (red to yellow). Their proportion determines skin tone.

So what would cause some people to have very dark skin while others’ skin is lighter? Where they live makes a difference. For example, darker skin on people living in regions near the equator protects them from intense sunlight, reducing their risk of skin cancer. People in higher latitudes where there is less intense sunlight need lighter skin to produce vitamin D efficiently. In each case those who had the characteristics conducive to living in the region stayed and reproduced. Those who didn’t either moved on or died out.

Over many generations, these favorable characteristics would be carried forward in the gene pool, and the less favorable characteristics would tend to fall away. Thus, genetic variability in isolated populations gradually decreases. So today people with very dark skin usually have children with dark skin and people with very light skin usually have light-skinned children.

However, people with “middle brown” skin often have children with a much wider range of skin tones. Why? Because these “middle brown” people groups still have significant genetic variability with regard to skin tone.

Based on our understanding of the inheritance of skin tone, we strongly suspect Adam and Eve were middle brown. This would give the widest range of skin tones in their offspring, from very light to very dark.

The Masters UniversityCedarville University Pensacola Christian College
Genetic Variation
Racial Characteristics
Beyond skin tone, other characteristics are used to distinguish one group of people from another. These include straight versus curly hair, thickness of lips, and the shape of eyelids. These features would have developed or become more prominent in various isolated people groups over the generations.

Regrettably, instead of giving glory to God for the differences between us, we fallen human beings use these features as an excuse to judge our fellow man. Why?

Evolution and Race
The problem is that most people, including many Christians, do not base their worldview and values on the Bible. Instead, they ignore God’s truth and adopt man’s ideas and values. This is always dangerous, but it may be most destructive in the area of human origins and its implications for social behavior.

The most prominent view of origins today is called evolution. According to the evolutionary worldview, humans evolved from an apelike ancestor over millions of years. Unfortunately, many have used this philosophy to teach that different people groups evolved at different rates. This allowed them to consider some people groups “less evolved” than others, some “races” closer to apes than others (always putting their own “race” at the top of the scale, of course).

While evolutionary thinking certainly intensifies racist attitudes, evolution is not the cause of racism. The cause of racism is sin. Man’s inhumanity towards his fellow man has existed since the Fall. The very first sin recorded after Adam took the forbidden fruit is Cain’s murder of his brother Abel; and a few verses later in the same chapter, Lamech actually brags about killing a man.

However, evolution has been used as a justification for racism. The late Harvard professor Stephen Jay Gould said, “Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859 [the year Darwin’s On the Origin of Species was published], but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.”

Modern Genetics
Evolutionary ideas about the races, taught for many decades, are now so ingrained in some people’s thinking that it is nigh impossible to correct their misperceptions. But in truth all humans are fully human. No group of people is less evolved than another. In fact, the genetic difference between any two people is only about one-tenth of one percent, trivial at best. Interestingly, genetic variation among people within a particular ethnic group is often greater than between members of different ethnic groups!

Scientists involved with mapping the human genome have declared that there is only one race—the human race. Some have even said that the term race is meaningless.

One Blood
God’s Word is clear. There is only one race.

Acts 17:26 reads, “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings.”

We can rightly talk about people groups, but only with the understanding that these groups represent what the Bible refers to as “tribes” or “nations.” People do have ethnic and cultural heritages that can be honored and celebrated.

But we are all one blood. Even in the midst of our differences, we are all the same.

The Consequences
The idea of races calls us to ask a serious question: if there are different races, then which race did Christ die for? The answer has eternal consequences.

All human beings are related. We all can trace our ancestry back to the first man, Adam. As descendants of Adam, we are all sinners. As sinners, we are in need of a Savior (Romans 5:12).

Jesus Christ, the Last Adam, was born as a man, as a descendant of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45). Because of this birth, He was able to serve as our Redeemer. He was crucified, died, and rose again. He overcame death, and those who put their faith and trust in Him need not fear death, for they inherit eternal life. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Dr. Tommy Mitchell, a fellow of the American College of Physicians, earned his MD from Vanderbilt University School of Medicine and practiced medicine for over 20 years. He is now a speaker for Answers in Genesis–USA.

So your saying you can't answer my simple question Brain, which is...do you believe there were millions soon millions of people shortly after the great flood?

Hippie

Yes

I do believe there could have been millions soon after flood

The way I get that someone comes up the 6000 year figure is they use the six days of creation and use the scripture that to God a day is as a thouand and get 6000 years. Then you would have to add the time from the of creation to now. That's where some are starting or at the end of creation to now and they get the 6ooo+.

To say creation took 6 literal 24 hour days is ludacris , when the sun was not created til the 4th day. But I wasn't there!

I'll take the last word. I don't see how posting the truth about human origins is in anyway racist. I definitely did not mean it to be. I just agreed with facts posted by Donnersurvivor.

I also posted no judgment on whether it was good or bad to have some non homosapien genes.

I see no reason why my pedigree is garbage. It has been vetted by many people. I had nothing to do with its creation. Most of us here share huge numbers of common ancestors from the last thousand years and even more back further. When you read my earlier posts, on other threads, you saw I posted facts like 3 million men have DNA from Nial of the 9 Hostages. It's not a very exclusive club. I enjoy history and for me its just a way to feel more connected. I am proud of my ancestry. I did not intend to make others feel less about theirs.

Keith

Hippie

Answer:
Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood. (GENESIS 10:1)

Bible
GENESIS 10:32

GENESIS 12:10

GALATIANS 3:28

The Tower of Babel incident occurred around 4,200 years ago—about 100 years after the Flood but before Abraham was born, This was before ancient Egypt, Greece, and other early civilizations. These places couldn’t have begun until after people left Babel to establish these other civilizations.

Noah’s grandson Javan founded Greece. When we read “Greece” in the Old Testament, it is actually the name Javan, which we translate as “Greece.” Noah’s grandson Mizraim founded Egypt. When we read “Egypt” in the Old Testament, it is the name Mizraim that we translate as “Egypt.” Famous and ancient civilizations you are familiar with couldn’t have existed until after Babel. This means the Tower of Babel was built prior to the appearance of these ancient cultures.

The Bible in Genesis 10 gives a list of families that came out of Babel with new languages. Since we don’t know how many people were in each family, we can’t know the exact number of people who came out of Babel. If we add up the families, there were at least 78. There could have been a few more, since the line that goes from Noah to Peleg (ultimately the line of Jesus) doesn’t give us all the information. For example, this line contains Noah, Shem, Arphaxad, Selah, Eber, and Peleg. (Some of these sound like strange names, huh?)

But GENESIS 11:13 says that Arphaxad had other children. GENESIS 11:14 says that Selah had other children. And GENESIS 11:17 says that Eber had other children as well. So these families that were not listed specifically in Genesis 10, but mentioned in Genesis 11, may have had a new language and would add to those 78 families. If each of these 78 families had a dad, a mom, and three kids, that would be just under 400 people! One person named Joktan had 13 kids (GENESIS 10:26–29). So some families may have had much more than just three children.

God is the light before sun

True, but I don't think he was punching any 24 hr time clock.

Foxpaw

He created time!

Have you ever heard of the eternal "now".

Lol

Mind blowing for sure!

Does anyone believe that the Milky Way is growing by at least one solar system each year?

I have no idea, you have a good source? That type of stuff is interesting to me.

Don't remember but I look for it, don't think I dreamed it, lol.

I wrote that belief theory on page 1 of our chat here.

Hope I was confirming it then, lol. I look to see. I was addressing the 6000 yr thing. I was over whelmed when I saw this thread, my speed reading ain't what she used to be, lol.
I took off on the Celtic heritage thing. I always thought they had a lot of the tribe of Dan in them. Since many of those are now Catholic, I just wonder when judgment day how that will play out. The tribe of Dan won't be present for the tribulation because of their idolatry.

Growing Galaxy

My wife said I seen it on TV and that they said there was thousands of of solar systems being added to other galaxies and that our own was slow and only adding about 1 per year.

This site says that and that while some are sucked in from other galaxies that some are made by sucking in gas.

Isaiah 42:5 “Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:”
The word stretched to me implies something not ridgid or fixed.

How long was Eden around? A day , a thousand years, 10,000 years? The bible doesn't specify such.

Very Good Foxpaw^^^

Isaiah 42:5

My guess would be it was inundated with the flood, whatever date that would be. But like the Ark of the Covenant which was a copy of the one in Heaven, there will a type of Eden where I can get back to the Tree of Life. Jesus paid my way when he was on the Tree. There is some scripture about the tree that produces fresh fruit each month, Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. I don't really have enough revelation or knowledge to comment on it.

Foxpaw I should have said how long was man in Eden. I believe humanity as we know it didn't begin until the fall of man.

We used the ages given when so-and-so beget so-and-so starting with Adam and moving forward... Then by adding up known historical events on top of that.

It sounds complicated but just involves a good deal of addition and subtraction.

Mike

Well its all semantics without the power of the Blood of Christ shed for us.

Genesis states that Seth was born after removal from the garden... And that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born.

So less than 130 years is about the best one could guess.

Mike

Can't remember who it was but I heard a theory that the land and mountains rose out of the floor waters. That is why ocean type fossils are found in mountains and and could have created the deep canyons in a short amount of time. I don't claim to have the answers but it sounded plausible to me.

Yea 330 that's a good verse for discussing the heavens.

Another comment on the flood from above where , I think Danny was saying there wouldn't be enough water to cover the earth. I have studied that the earth was pretty smooth before the flood and thus would not take as much water to cover it. Now in Gen 7:20 it says the water covered the mountains, which may have been an after the fact statement and if that is true. Then the flood water after a few days of soaking and erosion churning up the earth, that water was so heavy it actually put enough pressure on the earth surface to heave up the mountains. An explanation that before the waters receded sea life made deposits on the mountains. It sorta makes sense that if internal pressure had been in the interior of the earth there would have maybe been volcanoes instead of heaving up mountain ranges. So I can kinda go with that . Except that if the geologists know what they are talking about our mountain ranges on the east side are wore off more than the Rockies on the west. They say 200,000 years older than the west. So unless there was more than 1 flood, I don't know what to think.

Another thing is they say that big Ark they have built in Kentucky has dinosaur on it. Some from church wanted me to go and see it, I said no that ruined it for me.

Riveratdm We must be thinking alike, you posted while I was pecking and didn't see yours til I hit enter, lol.

I dont believe the Dinos were around with man. Cataclysmic event of earths forming put them out of the scene.

Humankind (finite) has attempted to explain with certainty the infinite since time for humankind began.
Thankfully the infinite One has a plan which actually allows the finite to debate and choose what he or she places faith in.
Most choose "me."

At the start of my first seminary course, one of our professors, himself about 80 years old and worn weary of generations of humanistic enlightened theological "debate," kept dropping his pen and dropping his pen and dropping his pen....

Dr. _______ then looked at us in his class and without smiling said,"For those of you who know all the answers already, and are here to confirm what you already know and have now intention of changing, please know that I have decided after 50 years of worldwide theological debate with wonderful faithful and non-faithful Christians alike... I believe God created gravity (pen falling) in a split second while He was on break from doing the really serious stuff, like making a million galaxies. My point - as soon as one of you can create gravity, let's talk about how ingenious and all knowing our brains are. Until then, please know that we all live in an age where; we see, we take, and we say what is good. Believe me folks, we're not that good, any of us. None of us. If we could make gravity, or sunlight, or smile at a neighbor we hate with sincerity, in spite of... then I would place my trust in what we say with 100% security. Until that day, I'll rest in the mystery of the infinite Creator who has given us revelation about how we are here. Why we are here. What's our purpose. And while we may not know the Creator exhaustively, we know the Creator satisfactorily enough to say 'yep' or 'nope.' " I say yep. Welcome to class. Let's begin.

Gravity is a given that don't change. Airplanes don't fly by defying gravity, they fly by using another law, the law of lift. And usually people like me are safe when we say water flows downhill, unless of course you get in the argument that the earth is bigger around at the equator therefore the Mississippi flows uphill after mixing in centrifugal force and some other measurements. I had to quit working on that one, my tape measure ain't that long, lol.

You guys have no idea how though it is not to comment on this thread

Scuba how long did it take the water to recede from your ark. I don't remember seeing in the bible it settled in Tennessee.

I like your style Mark. Let's learn from the scriptures rather the projecting our own knowledge back onto them. It makes all those strange stories so much more meaningful and gives them some serious gravity (pun intended). The theme you mentioned (and I quoted) above is a good example. Trace the words "see", "take", and "good/desirable" through the Tanakh, and your mind will be blown.

Regarding the flood narrative, it may be entertaining to do the mathematical projections, genealogies, and fossil-explaining, but to do so misses the point (or points, there's a lot going on there). The main purposes of the scriptures aren't to provide mechanistic explanations of anything but instead to provide functional explanations (i.e. the nature of ourselves, God, and the world). An interesting place to start on the flood might be to think of it as the second iteration (and there are many - reread Genesis 1, check out Moses, the Israelites crossing the Jordan, or Jesus's baptism) of God's rescue of humanity through the chaotic waters. There are lots of other themes and concepts that pop up in this story too, but this is one that should be easy enough to grasp and to track. If you can start to see how some of these themes and symbolic images are woven into the Bible, I promise that it will not only make more sense but it will also take on a more important personal meaning, and I think that's kind of the point.

If you believe the news, its still rising

One year while elk hunting in Colorado, one of my hunting buddies climbed to the top of a mountain. He was looking for elk sign and found seashells up there. He put some in his pocket, but most were so fragile, they crumbled. Still, you could easily make out that they were shells. He said before he picked some up they were whole.

Good thing Noah was a really good carpenter so he could build huge and strong cages to keep the T rexs from killing all the other dinosaurs and the food storage needs were huge. Just the tree twigs for the elephants alone would take up a lot of space. Needed a lot of extra gazelles to feed the lions water buffaloes for the tigers etc. etc.

Bryce

There is so much evidence for a world-wide flood it is undeniable. You also have to realize that the world looked a lot different back then than it did now. It had never rained for one thing, The atmosphere was totally different and people lived hundreds of years; the world was enveloped in a thick cloud of ozone layer and during the flood, the mountains heaved up, the tectonic plates moved, etc. Gigantic reptiles could no longer live in the new environment. It's all very explainable with so much evidence. it's just that most people are totally ignorant about it because for some crazy reason it's taboo to talk about it in school science class. Science in schools these days are more like religion than they are science.

People will believe crazy nonsense about the mayans, etc. when the explanation for it all is clear to see. The one that really gets me is when they find footprints of humans and dinosaurs in the same layer and even on top of each other, they make up all kinds of ridiculous, implausible excuses for it.

Most people have no idea how much they have been lied to.

I got force fed this type of stuff as a kid in church, then I got old enough to start doing my own research and when I found out I had been given a load of BS my entire childhood I left the church.

Sounds like alot more people need to watch Ancient Aliens. It is a documentary style show, that gives all the true evidence. It is what i fully believe in, and there is infinitely more evidence on the ancient alien side than anything else. Every one of the "big" religions on earth are just a control and power scam. If you actually research every single religion and all of the different groups, tribes, etc, on the planet, thoroughly, you will see that everything has been misinterpreted, and also manipulated. They all say the same thing, gods came down from the skies on fiery chariots, dragons, snakes, disks, etc..they didnt understand the technology they were looking at. People honestly believe that two of every animal would of been gathered up onto this ark!? No! But their DNA, yes it would hold all of the DNA....

Read and meditate on the Bible

Don't put your faith in Man

jht,
You are a wise man. May your tribe increase.

God's sending His Son was not
Biblical Symbolism

Well who doesn't like a good old fashioned wager....

Here's one I enjoy reading about, from the annals at the end of the Renaissance, that time in history when great thinkers built upon other great thinker's works from the previous 2,000 years. They still teach Aristotle and Plato in schools today, so themes such as this are in a way "timeless". You might not realize you were Aristotled in school, but you were.

French philosopher, mathematician and physicist, Blaise Pascal (1623–1662) premised that humans bet with their lives; that either God exists or does not.
A non-Christian himself, he argued; "A rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss, whereas he stands to receive infinite gains and avoid infinite losses, if God does exist.



You've heard themes of this man's work when you heard,
"You bet your life!"
or...
"The bet of a lifetime!"
That's Pascalian.

That is way to simplified. You would need to add all the other religions to the box and then decide if one is true which one is it. You yourself are wagering that Judaism is not right or Islam etc.

Well said Donnersurvivor. Well said. It is simple. Not way too simplified. Just simple.
Not too hard to pick the victor really. He's the One who rose from the dead on the third day.

The prophet Mohammed - he died and stayed dead.
The Mormon Smith - he died and stayed dead.
False prophets throughout history - all died and stayed dead.
And all the other Gods wouldn't work, because Pantheists believe we're all particularized in form, there is no good and evil. They don't exist. Their God is everywhere in everything. There's no after life to the Hindu or Buddists, so that's not what Pascal was referencing.

There are many cults

But one Creator

His Name is Yahweh who Sent His Son!

I would never try to live the Christian life as though it were nothing more than fire insurance, I wouldn't waste my time that way. I know God exists. I can't prove that to anyone else, but then, it's not my job to. God reveals himself to those who diligently seek him. One encounter is all it takes and you'll never doubt again.

So so Very True Posco ...all you said!

So so Very True Posco ...all you said!

Neither would I Posco. Pascal's work, like many apologists throughout history, is rationalistic, humanistic endeavor trying to explain what can not be replicated and reproduced (the modern definition of science). His writings were, and still are deep theology, at the core.

Augustine of Hippo (4th century) may have summed it up nicely in the 4th century, "We are speaking of God, what marvel if thou do not comprehend? For if thou comprehend, He is not God."

Blessings
Mark

Back years ago I used to hear "know so salvation" quite a lot but I don't think I've heard that expression in last 20 years. The world has always been worldly, but now the church is worldly and the world is churchy !

I made the original post hoping not that anyone would question...but hoping Someone might be blessed through the moving of the Holy Spirit in their life.. if not now then down the road.

Just some points I ponder..... Since God is all knowing and all powerful it doesn't seem to me that time is linear to Him as it to us....... God does what He does and science just tries to figure out how He did it......Sometimes describing a relationship with God to someone who doesn't believe is akin to describing what vision is to someone has never seen......

I believe thats true obaro about the relationship with God

Anyone been to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History recently? I went through it last April, had been in DC 4 times and had never been in one of the Smithsonian museums before, so a couple of us played hooky from a conference and went. There was a newer exhibit there, sponsored by one of the Koch brothers-- can't remember if it was the one that died recently or the other one. It was on the "Coming of Humans" or whatever it was called. It ended up giving me the willies. It wasn't the various lines of all kinds of skulls of different shapes and sizes (most "replicas" of something that had been found). No, it was the half a dozen or more bronze sculptures of the various forms of sub-humans frolicking in their earlier world environment. It struck me odd, why does a science exhibit have to have "art" in its portrayal? Sorry, I got nothing from little bronze hairy gnomes of people. That, and the stacking of the various skulls like it was Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge, just left a seriously bad taste in my mouth. I much more enjoyed the gems and mineral displays and the oceanic life. If I really want to dwell in cave people lore, I'd rather watch Raquel Welch in Million B.C. or whatever that movie is called. Much more enjoyable than Mr. Koch's little bronze gnome idols or stacks of freaky little replica skulls.

P.S. I actually do "science" for a living, not the disciplines discussed in these pages, much more boring, less controversial stuff. I do peer review, both as a someone who submits a manuscript and as a reviewer. Peer review is the best we humans have but that doesn't mean its not failable, anything human is failable. I know I've had reviewers who are against my publication not because they can present other data to refute it but because it doesn't fit their worldview of the subject at hand. I try not to let my bias creep into peer reviews but I'm sure it does sometimes to some degree or another because I'm human. I sometimes wonder who has the more faith, believers in a all powerful God who could send part of himself as a man to save humanity or people who think we're just all cosmic dust that came to life and "created" an extremely complicated natural world. We'll all find out one way or the other in the end...

I think that is a worthy goal. Most consistently happy people that I have met have been Christians and I think religion is typically a good thing. I do not question your motives or desires I just question your methods. As I said earlier in the thread growing up in a church that taught the bible as a literal document made me turn away from the church entirely once it was clear to me that that is impossible.

It's pretty simple. There's no evidence of a worldwide flood that occurred 6,000 years ago (or any time). It never happened.

It's either that or believe that God covered up all evidence of his own doings.

Jim

We are immersed in the period of "isms" and are taught/instructed/mandated/ridiculed to place our faith in and on the potential of them.

Rationalism, empiricism, romanticism, transcendentalism, Darwinism, capitalism, socialism, communism... you might even toss in the latest 'ism", climatetism. Or call it climatism for short. It's not a word spoken as gospel truth yet, but it will be in my children's lifetime.

All of these "isms" have crept into the teaching of church orthodox until you do have, as some on here mention, teachers who interpret God's narrative inaccurately, to the detriment of those they teach.

There is so much great meaning and value in the spiritual aspect of scripture that I find getting totally caught up in all this rigid literal interpretation is stopping us from really getting the message and the gift that we have been given.

Bryce

Lots of evidence for a great flood. Grand Canyon is just one example. No way, I'll ever be convinced that the tiny "trickle" down there called the Colorado River carved all that. I don't care how many millions of years it had to work. Nearly all fossils are found in giant graveyards/formations within sedimentary rock.

Well said Bryce.
It's foundational in Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, let Us make man in Our own image, according to Our likeness." A triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in perfect harmonious unity.

When we love our spouse, care for our children, enjoy special friendships and even tap away on TMan fellowship threads...
All these, and more, stand as resemblance to the God of the Bible and shout loudly that what we do in our life as a finite being, is crafted in God's image.

Luke 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

Since some people are bringing up the many religions, many paths to God point, I'd like to add a little bit on the religion that I've researched personally - Islam
Consider the following events from Mohammed’s life:
Mohammed coveted his son’s wife Zaynab, causing his son to divorce her so that Mohammed could marry her. Mohammed justified his covetousness with the revelation that Allah was the one who was giving Zaynab to Mohammed. It is written in the Quran “We gave her to you as a wife…”
When Mohammed broke the promise he made to his wives to stop sleeping with Mary the slave girl, Allah told him that he shouldn’t try to please his wives by not sleeping with Mary. Allah also told Mohammed that it was okay for him to dissolve his oaths, as long as he made expiation for them by doing a good deed that paid the “price” of his broken promise.

Quran 66:1-2
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

When Mohammed’s wives began to unite against him because he took Mary the slave girl into his wife Hafsa’s bed, Mohammed received a revelation. The Quran says that if Mohammed’s wives unite against him, Allah will be his ally. If Mohammed would choose to divorce his wives, Allah will support his decision and give him better wives. (Quran 66:3-4)

When Mohammed sent his men on raids against the Meccan caravans, he received the revelation that certain things were given to him that were not given to other prophets. Other prophets were not allowed to steal, but Mohammed was given the right to take booty. “The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.” (Bukhari 1:331)

Quran (8:69) - "So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good."

When Mohammed moved to Medina, he and his followers were welcomed by the three Jewish tribes who lived there. These Jews were more prosperous than the Muslims. Mohammed soon received the revelation that the whole earth belonged to Allah and his apostle, and therefore he could drive the Jews out of Medina and take everything they owned. He soon acted upon this revelation. He took the possessions of the Jews, murdered their men, and took their women as sex-slaves.

Mohammed didn’t like it when people mocked and criticized him. On a number of occasions, he sent out assassins to kill poets who mocked him. Mohammed received the revelation that those who mocked or criticizing him were mocking and criticizing Allah. They were guilty of disbelief, (Quran 9:64-66), and the penalty for Muslim who disbelieves is death.

When Mohammed’s men had taken both male and female captives at the battle of Hanain, the men wanted to rape the women, but they weren’t sure if it was lawful to so because the women’s husbands were present. Mohammed received the revelation “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" (Quran 4:24).”

With these words, Mohammed freed his men to do what they wanted to do. Because these women were captives who were the “possession” of the soldiers, the men were free to rape them. The soldiers of Isis follows Mohamed’s example in this today.

When Mohammed wanted to break a treaty, he received the revelation that he could break any covenant if he feared treachery from his covenant partner (Quran 8:58). Mohammed was quick to accuse non-Muslims of treachery, so this revelation allowed Mohammed to break any covenant that he wanted to break.
Women came and offered themselves to Mohammed. Mohammed received the revelation that he was permitted to have any women for himself who came and “dedicated her soul to him.”

Mohammed really liked women. He received the revelation that he would be given many women in heaven. He received the revelation that believing Muslim men would have 100 times the sexual strength and desire in heaven that they had on earth. (Sunan al-Tirmidhi 2459)

Worst of all, when Mohammed wanted to please his Arab followers, he received the revelations that instructed them to participate in pagan, idolatrous ceremonies. Mohammed’s Arab followers grew up worshiping idols. The central focus of idol worship in the pre-Islamic days was the Kaaba in Mecca. Mohammed received the revelation that his followers were supposed to bow down and pray in the direction of the Kaaba five times a day. In this way an old house of idols became the center of Islamic worship. Today much of the world bows down and prays in the direction of that house five times a day.

Every Muslim is supposed to go on a pilgrimage to Mecca and the Kaaba at least once in his lifetime. When they arrive there, they are supposed to circle the Kaaba just as their idol worshiping ancestors did and kiss the black stone just as their idol worshiping ancestors did. They are supposed to circle the two mountains As-Safa and Al-Marwah just as their idol worshiping ancestors did. They are supposed to offer animals as sacrifices just as their idol worshiping ancestors did.

Did the Kaaba become holy just because Mohammed claimed that Abraham built it? Of course not. The Kaaba is still the same house of idols that it was before the days of Islam. It is still the house of the most important idol of the Arabs, the black stone. The ceremonies that take place there today are just as idolatrous as the ceremonies that took place in times past, before the days of Islam.

I have studied religions. I believe in Jesus

If those who believe in "Science" and the Earth and Sun is millions of years old Why are they so worried about a few degrees change in the tempreture

It seems to me that one of the reasons we have atheists is because of the belief of the impossibility of God. One example is prayer. Consider New York and its huge population. If 10% of the population were praying to God, that would seem impossible that their prayers would be heard. But, that's just one large city. There are thousands of large cities around the world. If 10% of their populations were praying to God as well at that same time it is unimaginal that all these prayers could be heard because we can't see beyond our materialism. As humans we consider things as fact if we SEE them.

That's also why the things some read in the bible are impossible and they are for us humans. It's no different than believing God can hear all these prayers at the same time. For some, if they can't put God in a box and understand him, he couldn't possibly exist. We aren't capable of fully understanding the nature of God as a materialistic human.

Created in His image, I completely get it. Sometimes I want to take people off the planet other times I can’t do enough for them.

I think it takes more faith to believe there isn't a God than to believe there is.

At one time I would have believed that but not so much anymore. From grade school through college kids are taught, in an indirect way, there is no God.

That's the truth.

Im Glad I believe

I am fairly confident that the visual that Mark June posted is also known as a "Type 1 Error vs. Type 2 Error" analysis. It is definitely thought provoking and makes a point. That method of decision making is also quite old. Although recognized by Pascal, it is also scientific. I have seen it recognized anthropologically as a determination that helped to keep mankind alive as a species. The example given being running from a noise in the bush will be the best move, even if the noise was just the wind. I do really enjoy things like this that provoke thought. Thanks for posting!

A few years ago, a friend who is very rooted in faith and biblically-versed, shared something with me that I will never forget. He said, "God is not insecure." He went on to explain that God will not be angry with me for questioning what it means to follow him, why so many aspects of faith are confusing, and the ways in which the actions of humans may complicate and mislead. God will not become defensive, because there is no reason to. He said that God wants me to question things. A God, belief system, and way of life that is fully rooted in truth will patiently allow me to investigate. For doing so will only, ultimately, lead me to an understanding that surpasses blind submission. It would lead to a higher understanding, of everything.

I'll say it again. By questioning, I would be able to find a higher level of faith and understanding that would otherwise be unattainable. This inherently means that some things I felt to be true may in fact not be. It also means that I may find truths which were previously unavailable based on my prior misconceptions.

I think Nietzsche's madman, although often misquoted,misinterpreted, and misunderstood, raises a valid point. When the lantern is smashed and the light extinguished, he essentially says that he is "too soon" and that the people aren't ready. Although perhaps a bit of a stretch, I'm always reminded of this when I read or hear people who refuse to even carry a discussion about anything that contradicts their preconceived beliefs. I find it discouraging, actually disappointing, when people can't remain rational and competent when discussing such things.

This is cognitive dissonance. An uncomfortable, anxiety-filled, physiological response to a concept that somehow contradicts a person's preconceived beliefs. This reaction indicates a contradiction. It does not, however, indicate that the preconceived beliefs are true.

Notice this post is neutral. I will say one thing...

The rigid-thinking, white European, ethnocentric lens will become difficult to see through when you truly, honestly, start to question the way things are. The New Testament is filled with stories of someone who was patient, sought out those in need, and questioned the status quo of the time.

It would sure be nice if the people who profess to follow Him could do the same.

Quit the Pointing out that Christians are hypocrites - believers are Humans who are falible despite their faith...trying just like everyone else


The Non believer ALWAYS pointing out those flaws is just their defense mechanism. Everyone is hypocritical some times. No one on this Side has been made perfect.

330 is that directed at me? Just who exactly is using a defense mechanism on this page? It's not me. I tried to share something I put a lot of thought into that has also helped me in my life. Are you saying that is not going to be allowed by a moderator on this page?

I said nothing about being hypocritical. There is, however, a huge difference between falling short of perfection due to being human and professing faith without living it.

All humans fall short of perfection including Christians. I don't know of any Christian who has achieved perfection. I consider myself a Christian, but am far from perfection and it is because I'm human. I'm not qualified to determine whether someone isn't living their faith.

Not directed

And moderators have opinions too..

I agree, all humans fall short because they are simply that....human. The people who say they are Christian but treat people like garbage, consistently, are the ones who scare me.

330, glad to hear that. I never said I wasn't a believer, but I have put a lot of thought into my beliefs.

There are many many Things that we will never quite understand or put a finger on

Friendships

Instant attraction

Faith

Experiences...etc.

........especially experiences. Some say this is Fact
The next person couldnt conceive of that so then it couldnt happen, never happened or could analytically be proven this way

Faith also cannot be proven or understood...but its a very powerful thing.

I think when it comes to questioning we all have some Habakkuk in us, esp. when God isn't moving fast enough for our schedule.

I also think particularly in church we have a hierarchy in which, well I'm certainly better than them, I mean I've never done that!. Then we had the higher learned group that sometimes like to play keep away with their learning and use it for an advantage. In those situations I always say there is no better example of the big fish eating the little fish than the pecking order in church, particularly when it comes to the paying jobs. Also I think we believe we can replace faith with knowledge and work our own way in or up, only to be disappointed. I tell both the learned and not so learned, that you don't need to be a mechanic to drive a car. That you can know all about the valves, push rods, and pistons and how they fit and their timing, but still if we don't have the key it won't start. Yes we need a mechanic when we break down, but God has his own triple AAA roadside assistance. Its called The Prayer Bells Of Heaven.

If I ever achieve perfection here on earth, I want be wearing hip boots while setting and running beaver traps. I'll be walking on the water!

Very good thread, thanks fellas!

^Good post.

Type I & II Errors can be confusing, but they are important to understand. In country folk terms....

Type I Error - Accept something as true, when in fact it is false.

Type II Error - Accept something as false, when in fact it is true.

These kinds of errors have the potential to shape our world view; it is important to distinguish between the two.

MNCedar,
Well though out sir. You mention Nietzdche's and you have to give those old 19th century German philosophers their due. They labored lone and hard, those great thinkers and they changed many a thought... and their liberated thinking is with us still. As I'm sure you know, one of his many thesis was that the moralistic teachings of theology - the study of God - and man's own innate morality, would seem to be intertwined at a level we can't understand, but should seek to understand. He, and so many others would build on the Enlightened thought of those Deists two centuries before, many who founded our nation, themselves "enlightened" to the fact that evil among us is hard to explain with a "loving God" doctrine. God must have created, and walked away, leaving us to our own devices (minds/resources), so many philosophers and theologians debated the means by which man could create paradise.

I hold to the fact we can all get more moralistic and "better," but there is a limit to us that these philosophers struggled with, especially when they cross the line and advocate - if God were "dead," as some proclaimed in the early to mid 20th century, then man himself could finally rise to the level of perfection to which he is "fairly" due. Fairness was a big 19th century philosophical topic and we're all the recipients of the - "you're not being fair" doctrine today... of those "liberated, clear thinking" philosophers from not so long ago - when my great grandparents would have heard it, and heard it, and heard it again.

But, by who and what power are we to declare we are to be treated fair? Most declare they are to be treated "fair," but no one promises that, and we're not owed that. Good old 1800's thinking right there, mostly from the other side of the pond. Stellar European thinkers they were. Now we see it every night on the news. Who is and isn't being treated fair. Sadly, many in the last 300 years have been taught to blame God, not man, for the un-fairness we see. As a friend of mine once said, "That right there is backeerds thinkin."
Yep.

You're also correct MNCedar, in that, as these philosophers outlined, in our ignorance, we seek righteousness of a man-made kind. The "I and I alone hold the truth" mantra. "Any questions for me anyone? I'm a Googler so I am correct on this, many say!

But,
I see, I take, and I declare what is good and evil.
God's revealed narrative to us (Bible) points us to this basis of our sin;

The woman did it in Genesis 3:6. She is not yet called Eve - mother of all the living (seed of the woman).
Men did it in Genesis 6:1-2 when the sons of God saw that as they multiplied, the daughters of men were beautiful and they took whomever they chose.
And David did it in 2 Samual 11 when he saw a beautiful woman bathing.

We all do it.

Thankfully, our Creator has a better path, should we so choose.
I'm glad he allows us all the freedom of will to choose.
Cause cookie-cutter would look like a North Korean army lined up on parade.

Christian means follower of Christ. If these supposed "Christians" treat people like garbage as you say, they aren't following the teachings of Christ and probably not Christians even though they profess they are. I know people who are Christians who by their actions it's apparent. But, they're not perfect either. They still have that human side. I also know people who aren't Christians that are good human beings. The way I see it is, it's not my problem, it's God's problem. Let him sort them out.

If you're walking on water, what do you need hip boots for?

Mark June,

Thank you for taking the time to share such well-written and thought-provoking words. In addition to reading your book, I have talked with you (very briefly) a few times at conventions. Those conversations were just small talk and not quite along this topic line. You have always been a class act and I respect what you have done for trappers and the industry.

I can't say that I ever expected to discuss philosophy and European thinking on good ol' Tman, but here we are! As I mentioned earlier, in recent years I have been moved to press into the belief systems of both myself and others. To say I have a new understanding of diversity would be an understatement and this world is in desperate need of it. I also appreciate the opportunity to share discourse with someone like yourself.

For me, there is a lot to unpack in the word Creator. It reminds me who I am, but more importantly it reminds me of everything I am not. After all, I am just a very small part of something that is so much bigger than myself. Most importantly, I will always be a work in progress.

MNcedar,

Pleasure. When one is confident, not arrogant (there is a cavern of difference) there can be good apologetics at many levels.

Interestingly, I've been getting quite a few theology questions on the PM side of things here on TMan and it's humbling to help folks with issues of a personal nature. I get to them as best I can because I'm slam packed with studies every day - 15 credit hours in grad school, especially with Greek and Hebrew is.... well it ain't easy. I'm checking emails here at 12:30am and I have class again in 7 hours.

But, we only live once. Why not trust in and do what most in society scoff at now. Trapping and faith in Christ. That's two subjects, most in society say are not worthy!
But just as some are rock solid on "why" they trap, some of us, maybe many of us here on TMan are even more solid on the foundation of life - our own salvation and that of our family, our friends, and even our not-so-friends.

We're all gonna end up in the same dirt we dig our dirt holes into. The wages of sin are death and everyone we know, including ourselves, will pass on - die.
The hope of eternity - blessings - mercy - and love from our Creator, who made us as image bearers for Creation is a blessing at any level.

Mark

I believe the Bible.