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Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven

Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:46 AM

if they live a virtuous life?
Posted By: mink99

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:48 AM

No. One must believe in Jesus in order to go to heaven. Doesn’t matter how great of a life a person lives.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:49 AM

Accept a man be born again...he shall not enter th re Kingdom of heaven.

So no
Posted By: James

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:50 AM

Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:53 AM

So does the person go to hades even if he lives a good life not hurting anybody and faithfully takes care of his family. Should that person rot in hades the same as somebody like Adolph Hitler who did monstrous things?
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:54 AM

If they deny Christ ...Yes
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:57 AM

Didn’t know I couldn’t use the word hades even though it wasn’t used in a cursing sense. However, you get the gist.
Posted By: FairbanksLS

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim


If.you believe some Protestants you'll have a lot of Catholics keeping you company.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by gray dog
Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim


If.you believe some Protestants you'll have a lot of Catholics keeping you company.

grin
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:03 AM

If that were possible there would have been no need for the cross. No matter how virtuous you or others believe you to be, you ain't virtuous enough to enter into the presence of the Glory of God. The Cross is the Way.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:07 AM

It may well be for those who are part of the Triumphant second coming of Christ and the reestablishment of Heaven on earth to look around and say;

"Well I'll be... I had no idea "you'd" be here!"

Same as they might say;
"Hey, where's _________? Thought for sure they'd make it in!"

grin
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:08 AM

None so clean that they can and none so dirty that they can't. Runs contrary to the way man thinks.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:09 AM

The Empty cross

Many people were crucified

Only Christ Died for our sins

And was resurrected on the 3rd day!
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by gray dog
If.you believe some Protestants you'll have a lot of Catholics keeping you company.


I'm waiting for Boco to chime in.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by gray dog
If.you believe some Protestants you'll have a lot of Catholics keeping you company.


I'm waiting for Boco to chime in.

Oh oh
Posted By: Mark K

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:16 AM

What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?
Posted By: adam m

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim

Matthew 7:21-23 nasb

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Posted By: grumley701

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:19 AM

Roman's 3:10-19.....no is the answer.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by adam m
Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim

Matthew 7:21-23 nasb

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Very good Adam
Posted By: AntiGov

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:22 AM

Jesus aint coming for any of us until all have had a chance to hear the word of god and accept or deny him
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:23 AM

Mark,
You ask a classic 19th century (1800's), humanistic question built upon the atheistic thesis presented by philosophers and theologians (non-Christian) of that day... as to why there is no God.

It's a big topic and there are answers but TMan probably isn't the best spot to answer this intriguing question.
Posted By: grumley701

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:28 AM

Isaiah 64:6. You can not earn it..
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:28 AM

We mash a cockroach under our foot without giving it a second thought, why would we deny God the same choice?
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
if they live a virtuous life?

All have fallen short. But hypothetically if someone lived a perfectly sinless life I would say hypothetically yes.
Posted By: star flakes

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:29 AM




Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim



Luke 7

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Ephesian 2:8

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."


In secular terms, a Mexican can sing the Star Spangled Banner, wear an American flag, work in America, but it does not make them an American. An American can break every law the United States has, but when they are caught for judgment day, their actions forfeit the right of being an American. Likewise an atheist can be the best person in the world, but not accepting God's payment for their rebellion in Jesus as their payment for their eternal death, negates the good deeds. Likewise a person can sit in the pew every Sunday and spout Bible verses, but if they have not accepted the Way, the Truth and the Life, the seed of eternal life in them will never grow as the Holy Ghost is not in them., Both receive the same end they desired as they chose it.

God gave each person the free will to decide what their future is, but it is according to God's Rules, not what their intellect argues of what is right or wrong in their flawed reasoning.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:30 AM

Its not a topic for any titled theoHornedphilosoWhatevertitle man makes up

Christ gave us the answer

No
Posted By: rex123

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:30 AM

You do realize you can't just talk the talk you have to walk the walk? There are very few real followers of christ in this world.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:30 AM

A person cannot receive eternal life (wherever that might be spent, heaven, paradise, or whatever you want to call it) by a "virtuous life".

The reason a virtuous life won't do you any good is because it would then be because of your good behavior, or in other words, God would owe it to you because you deserve it. God doesn't work that way; He is never put in the position where He owes us anything.

It's his gift to us that allows us to have eternal life; we can't earn it.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by waggler
A person cannot receive eternal life (wherever that might be spent, heaven, paradise, or whatever you want to call it) by a "virtuous life".

The reason a virtuous life won't do you any good is because it would then be because of your good behavior, or in other words, God would owe it to you because you deserve it. God doesn't work that way; He is never put in the position where He owes us anything.

It's his gift to us that allows us to have eternal life; we can't earn it.

Amen!!
Posted By: grumley701

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:33 AM

Ray Comfort has a pretty good test if you think you are worthy..
Posted By: Jurassic Park

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim


From what I understand the better Christian you are, the better Heaven will be for you.
Posted By: traprjohn

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Posco
None so clean that they can and none so dirty that they can't. Runs contrary to the way man thinks.


exactly

YES, they can if they get saved before death, or even accepted Christ early in life, but backslid their adult life, since "once saved always saved."
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:44 AM

You and your wife die and both go to heaven. She is a lot better person than you and gets a higher reward in Heaven. What happens to you. Can you still see her or be with her. Or do you have to visit her and once the visit is over do you have to leave and go to your lower place in heaven. There are now billions of people in Heaven. How is all this going to be decided when each soul sees each other. Some of this doesn’t make sense.
Posted By: traprjohn

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:45 AM

The Bible says in several places we get to Heaven "not by works", but through salvation, by accepting Christ as our saviour.
Posted By: AntiGov

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
You and your wife die and both go to heaven. She is a lot better person than you and gets a higher reward in Heaven. What happens to you. Can you still see her or be with her. Or do you have to visit her and once the visit is over do you have to leave and go to your lower place in heaven. There are now billions of people in Heaven. How is all this going to be decided when each soul sees each other. Some of this doesn’t make sense.



You are right , some of it we will just have to see when we get there
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
There are now billions of people in Heaven.


Millions wouldn't surprise me, billions would.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by traprjohn
"once saved always saved."


I believe that, John. I think a man can rob himself of the assurance of his salvation but the Lord never goes back on his word. The Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We can't trust ourselves.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
You and your wife die and both go to heaven. She is a lot better person than you and gets a higher reward in Heaven. What happens to you. Can you still see her or be with her. Or do you have to visit her and once the visit is over do you have to leave and go to your lower place in heaven. There are now billions of people in Heaven. How is all this going to be decided when each soul sees each other. Some of this doesn’t make sense.

I wont see her anyway...till death do us part...contract ends. wink
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by 330-Trapper
I wont see her anyway...till death do us part...contract ends. wink

Lol!
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by adam m
Originally Posted by James
Do they have a separate section in the heavenly bleachers for those who believed in Jesus, but lived the life of scoundrels?

Jim

Matthew 7:21-23 nasb

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’



I would say the most important words in this are, "but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

I don't think it's a coincidence that God is a shortened form of good and devil can be shortened to evil.

Keith
Posted By: kyron4

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mark K
What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?


I have asked this question to many pastors and theologians over the years and never got a straight answer. There are peoples in South America and Africa that have never seen a white man , let alone heard the name Jesus. If Christianity began in the Middle East 2000 years ago did generation after generation of people across the globe die and got to Hyades for being born in at certain time and location ? Millions burning because they never knew the way ? Doesn't seem right , but I'm told the Bible is to be taken literally. You tell me .
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by kyron4
Originally Posted by Mark K
What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?


I have asked this question to many pastors and theologians over the years and never got a straight answer. There are peoples in South America and Africa that have never seen a white man , let alone heard the name Jesus. If Christianity began in the Middle East 2000 years ago did generation after generation of people across the globe die and got to Hyades for being born in at certain time and location ? Millions burning because they never knew the way ? Doesn't seem right , but I'm told the Bible is to be taken literally. You tell me .


There is no way a good and just God, worthy of worship, would allow most of the people to ever exist, to suffer terrible, eternal torment, for no fault of their own, not knowing of Jesus Christ.

Keith
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:31 AM

Most Christians will say the Bible isn't to be taken literally.
Posted By: Scuba1

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:34 AM

Does the atheist even care ? Can't go to a place that is not there.
Posted By: wr otis

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:35 AM

Where there more people that lived and died before the bible was compiled, or more people after?

The idea that you yourself, are qualified or righteous to the point that you can pass judgement on another person's eternity is a pitfall. One man reads a bible, how can that possibly make him the judge of another man who reads a different text, or none at all.
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by adam m

Matthew 7:21-23 nasb

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


So this says, not every one who proclaims faith and belief will get in-
and it also says that only those who do good works (will of Father) will get in -

Seems contrary to the by faith alone line of talk?
Posted By: warrior

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mark K
What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?


Romans Chapter 1

All mankind knew God from the beginning.
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Scuba1
Does the atheist even care ? Can't go to a place that is not there.

Op also included agnostics in the question. You are correct though about the atheist.
Posted By: Mike in A-town

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by kyron4
Originally Posted by Mark K
What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?


I have asked this question to many pastors and theologians over the years and never got a straight answer. There are peoples in South America and Africa that have never seen a white man , let alone heard the name Jesus. If Christianity began in the Middle East 2000 years ago did generation after generation of people across the globe die and got to Hyades for being born in at certain time and location ? Millions burning because they never knew the way ? Doesn't seem right , but I'm told the Bible is to be taken literally. You tell me .


A few points to ponder...

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/

Mike
Posted By: Scuba1

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by tjm

Op also included agnostics in the question. You are correct though about the atheist.


I sure am glad I am right on this one
grin
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:48 AM

I believe in God. I don't think any religion or living human being knows the true nature of everything. I believe there is some truth in the Bible, but that it was written by man. I think we were likely made in God's image and that there is a soul or divine part to us. I think the best part of dying will be hopefully learning all.

Keith
Posted By: adam m

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:04 AM

Thanks 330. I can't take the credit lol
Posted By: adam m

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by tjm
Originally Posted by adam m

Matthew 7:21-23 nasb

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROMME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


So this says, not every one who proclaims faith and belief will get in-
and it also says that only those who do good works (will of Father) will get in -

Seems contrary to the by faith alone line of talk?

Negative. It's cut and dry. For those that are saved desire to do the will of God (more than good deeds) and not desire to fulfill the sin nature. There are plenty who think they are saved but they live and act the world.

James 2:14- talks about works without fallout faith and vis versa
Matthew 6
Ephesians 2:1-9 saved by faith not through works
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:50 AM

The question is could an atheist still go to heaven? What about if a person is like:Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

If he had rejected the Gospel call when it came and kept rejecting it til he died ( I am not God to judge). I'll just say if it was me I think I would be doomed.

As far as babies, mute. or the guy stranded on an island, or maybe a person in the middle of China that's never heard the gospel then I think Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

If God is a just God how would he judge a person on a set of conditions the person had never even heard. Possibly some type of judgment would be in store for a person that was supposed to take the gospel to that lost person and didn't, a sin of omission.

If I want to tip toe thru the tulips and take the Gospel to the lost but believe they are too corrupt to be able to choose then I'm just wasting my time. However if I believe God has conditioned there heart to accept the Gospel, then maybe revival is at hand. Since I don't know for certain what God will do I must sow the seed even in windy conditions or keep the seed in a sack where almost for certain it will not grow.

As much as I loved Dorris Day's song "What ever will be will be", it leaves no room for evangelism or for "whoso ever will". I like God's two step program "Repent and Believe".

So probably my short lines here probably hasn't answered your question fully but i did make an attempt. When I was young and I would ask a guy with a PHD complicated questions kinda like the one the OP has asked, usually he would say"if you want to know something ask God". Yes they was complicated questions and he didn't want to get dirty. Imagine if a guy didn't want to get dirty and God would send him to stay at a tanners house. Also the same guy would stress that to much knowledge would lead to gnosticism, strange a guy would waste 4 or 5 yrs of expense on classes to gain knowledge, if he truly believed that. He seemed to hate the term "this much I know, that I know nothing at all". I would remind him often.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mark K
What about the millions of people in Australia or further reaches of the planet who never heard of either Jesus or his father? No way for them to know anything. Is it just for a just god to condemn those who never had a chance? How about those born deaf and blind who never learned to communicate with the world? Damnation for them too, huh?

I think you have to have the knowledge of sin....When Adam and Eve were in the Garden they had no knowledge of right and wrong.

But after eating the Apple they gained that knowledge and were ashamed of their nakedness.

I also think at some point everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and make a choice.

Never bought in to newborns being born into depravity, or people going to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) without the knowledge of sin.
Posted By: James

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:28 AM

I was raised Catholic and taught you get to heaven through belief in Jesus AND through good works. I've been told many Protestants dispense with the second requirement.

I used to torment my parents with questions like this one: If Adolf Hitler had accepted Jesus, after taking the cyanide pill, would he be in heaven--alongside the six million Jews who were his victims?

As a variation of Pascal's wager, how about if you lead a debauched, wicked life, with the plan of accepting Jesus on your death bed? Of course, your conversion would have to be sincere--but sincerity would be easy if you're looking at eternity.

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by KeithC
I believe in God. I don't think any religion or living human being knows the true nature of everything. I believe there is some truth in the Bible, but that it was written by man. I think we were likely made in God's image and that there is a soul or divine part to us. I think the best part of dying will be hopefully learning all.

Keith


I believe in some of those things, but have to take issue with part of your beliefs. Unless we're speaking figuratively, saying we're made in God's image has no logic behind it at all. Why would God need arms and hands, when he can manipulate anything by thought alone?

Since God isn't stuck in the bottom of a gravity well, why would he need legs or feet? Why would he need a digestive system?

And why would he need reproductive organs, unless there is a Goddess out there somewhere?

Jim
Posted By: kyron4

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by James

I used to torment my parents with questions like this one: If Adolf Hitler had accepted Jesus, after taking the cyanide pill, would he be in heaven--alongside the six million Jews who were his victims?


Jim



Do Jews go to heaven when they die ? Don't they reject Jesus Christ as Savior ?
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:52 AM

First it is unlikely that all 6 million Jews were in Heaven. If Hitler truly repented and believed, then yes he would go to Heaven. The Apostle Paul murdered Christians but became the Apostle to the Gentiles.
In His image....I often wonder what the immortal humans image was like, I've only known the mortal.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by James
I was raised Catholic and taught you get to heaven through belief in Jesus AND through good works. I've been told many Protestants dispense with the second requirement.

I used to torment my parents with questions like this one: If Adolf Hitler had accepted Jesus, after taking the cyanide pill, would he be in heaven--alongside the six million Jews who were his victims?

As a variation of Pascal's wager, how about if you lead a debauched, wicked life, with the plan of accepting Jesus on your death bed? Of course, your conversion would have to be sincere--but sincerity would be easy if you're looking at eternity.

Jim



Adolf Hitler would be in Heaven, because before his theoretical conversion he was just as sinful as those Jews (all have fallen short of the Glory of God), and after his theoretical conversion his sins would all beforgiven, just like anybody else. Psalm 103 says he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.


Also, pretty much all jews don't go to heaven, since by the nature of being Jewish, they reject Christ. There are some Messianic Jews that accept Christ, but most jews do not.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
if they live a virtuous life?


I haven't read all the comments, but here is my 2 cents

Matthew 10:15
15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

“The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here” (Matthew 12:41-42).

Rev 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

If Sodomites and Ninivites will be raised, in a FUTURE judgement, and condemn others, it would seeem that a "good" atheist/agnostic would benefit from virtous living.

Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by KeithC
I believe in God. I don't think any religion or living human being knows the true nature of everything. I believe there is some truth in the Bible, but that it was written by man. I think we were likely made in God's image and that there is a soul or divine part to us. I think the best part of dying will be hopefully learning all.

Keith


I believe in some of those things, but have to take issue with part of your beliefs. Unless we're speaking figuratively, saying we're made in God's image has no logic behind it at all. Why would God need arms and hands, when he can manipulate anything by thought alone?

Since God isn't stuck in the bottom of a gravity well, why would he need legs or feet? Why would he need a digestive system?

And why would he need reproductive organs, unless there is a Goddess out there somewhere?

Jim




I should have not used the word "and" there. I should have used a comma. I think the soul or divine part of of us is made in God's image, not the physical part. The questioning part of us that seeks knowledge and wants to know the nature of creation is God like.

Keith
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:11 PM

They can make it to heaven so long as they accept God and Jesus before their last breath.
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
They can make it to heaven so long as they accept God and Jesus before their last breath.


This ^^ is my take on it as well.
Posted By: cotton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:36 PM

A believing wife can save an unbelieving husband and the other way around.

but trust me the marriage will be way yonder better if both are saved
Posted By: Donnie H

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:42 PM

No body should wait til they are on their deathbed to accept GOD.
What if GOD don't draw you when your there ?
No man can be saved unless GOD deals with him.
He gives us all a chance when he deals with our hearts, once, but he
May deal with me once and you several times. This is why it's so important
to accept him when he does deal with us. Only way to heaven is through the
blood of HIS Son JESUS...Only way. Our best works is as filthy tags in HiS eyes.
I fail him every minute, we all do, but the blood covers our sins.


Donnie
Posted By: Animals Only

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:50 PM

Every religion believes that if you do not believe in their religion you will take a dive upon death. It's a scare tactic to get more recruitment. Recruitment = $$$ tax free for the preacher. It's big business at its finest. But to answer your question, who knows.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Animals Only
Every religion believes that if you do not believe in their religion you will take a dive upon death. It's a scare tactic to get more recruitment. Recruitment = $$$ tax free for the preacher. It's big business at its finest.

There are some religions that don't think you go to heck when you die. Universalists believe that all roads lead to heaven. There are some (misguided) people that call themselves Christians that think God will give you a second chance when you die. Those are just two examples. Pastors pay taxes on income, just like anyone else. Churches themselves don't pay taxes, because they provide a benefit to the community. Our church, just to use an example, provides a meal on Wednesday nights during the school year in a meth-filled town where for some of those kids, it's their only square meal of the day. If they had to pay all kinds of taxes, they likely wouldn't be able to provide that meal. Would you rather those kids go hungry?
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Donnie H
No body should wait til they are on their deathbed to accept GOD.
What if GOD don't draw you when your there ?
No man can be saved unless GOD deals with him.
He gives us all a chance when he deals with our hearts, once, but he
May deal with me once and you several times. This is why it's so important
to accept him when he does deal with us. Only way to heaven is through the
blood of HIS Son JESUS...Only way. Our best works is as filthy tags in HiS eyes.
I fail him every minute, we all do, but the blood covers our sins.


Donnie

Well put
Posted By: JTaddeo

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:05 PM

Into the void.....with pickles!


whistle
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:09 PM

Workers In The Vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16)
The first part of the 20th chapter of Matthew records another story that Jesus told, this time about the wages paid to the workers in the vineyard. It clearly is about serving the Master, or working in the kingdom, but the twist here is that many of those who worked in the vineyard did not think that the wages were fairly paid. The story follows logically the ideas of the last chapter concerning wealth and the kingdom of heaven, that is, following the Lord and the cost of that discipleship. The theme of the last being first and the first being last ended that chapter, and this one as well. God’s economy of grace is not the same as the natural order people expect.

After this passage the focus will turn to Jerusalem and the suffering of the Messiah. In Matthew 20:17-19 Jesus will speak of His death again. Then, when the mother of the sons of Zebedee comes and asks for favors for her sons in the kingdom, Jesus speaks of their being able to drink the cup that he must drink (20:20-28). And then as a climax to His teaching and His mighty works, Jesus healed two blind men in Jericho as he headed toward Jerusalem (20:29-34).

Reading the Text
1 For the kingdom of heaven of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 And after agreeing with the workers for the standard wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When it was about nine o’clock in the morning, he went out again and saw others standing around in the market place without work. 4 And he said to them, “You go into the vineyard too and I will give you whatever is right.” 5 So they went. When he went out again about noon and three o’clock that afternoon, he did the same thing. 6 And about five o’clock that afternoon he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, “Why are you standing here all day without work?” 7 They said to him, “Because no one has hired us.” He said to them, “You go and work in the vineyard too.”


8 When it was evening, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, “Call the workers and give the pay starting with the last hired until the first.” 9 When those hired about five o’clock came, each received a full day’s pay. 10 And when those hired first came, they though they would receive more. But each one also received the standard wage. 11 When they received it, they began to complain against the landowner, 12 saying, “These last fellows worked one hour, and you have made them equal to us who bore the hardship and burning heat of the day.

13 And the landowner replied to one of them, “Friend, I am not treating you unfairly. Didn’t you agree with me to work for the standard wage? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave to you. 15 Am I not permitted to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous? 16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Observations on the Text
We have here a story without any additional teaching. The statements of the landowner in the story therefore form the teaching that the Lord wanted to make. After all, the landowner does represent the Lord.

The story could be divided into two or three parts for the organized study. I have chosen three parts: the basic story of the hiring agreement, the twist in the story when the workers were all paid the same thing, and the landowner’s explanation of what he was doing (the first two could be joined together).

The passage is uncomplicated. There is no citation from an Old Testament prophetic passage to be dealt with. There is no miracle in the story that has to be explained. There are no heavy theological expressions or terms that have to be studied. And there is no real sin in the story that has to be confronted--perhaps a mild complaint and dissatisfaction by the workers. What we are left with is a fairly simple story with a twist to it, and a lesson made out of the event.

Analysis of the Text
I. THE MASTER ARRANGES FOR PEOPLE TO WORK IN HIS VINEYARD (1-7)
There is no reason whatsoever to go into this passage in great detail--the grammar and the vocabulary is all pretty much straightforward. In fact, an excellent reading of the story will provide enough color for any explanation of the meaning. But because even reading a passage requires a certain amount of exegetical interpretation, we must trace the basic things here.

In order for the story to work, the imagery has to be clarified. The landowner clearly represents the Lord, and the vineyard represents his kingdom. These two motifs have been used elsewhere in Jesus’ teaching with these meanings. There is no reason to ask what kind of work they were supposed to do, because that is not the main thrust of the text. But what is important is the apparent inequity in the pay scale.

The story unfolds as the day progressed. The landowner wants to hire some men to work for him. He simply goes to the place where he could find such labor--the local labor pool. Even to this day men stand around these areas in the hopes that they will be picked up and given a day job. And in our story the landowner made several runs at the marketplace, perhaps because the work apparently proved too much for the first two who were hired, or perhaps because the day was spent and the work needed to be done--we cannot tell.

But we can already anticipate where this story might be going. As time progresses, the Lord goes looking for more and then even more people to come and work in his vineyard--with the promise of a fair wage. In the Bible, working in the vineyard is a fairly solid image of serving in the Lord’s kingdom. The emphasis on wages in the outworking of the event means that this story is primarily about God’s gifts, or rewards, for faithful service. But the length of service and the amount of work does not determine what the reward is.

II. THE MASTER PAYS EVERYONE AN EQUAL SALARY FOR THE DAY’S WORK (8-13).
After the day came to an end, the landowner called his manager to pay the workers. But to everyone’s surprise, he first paid the workers who came last, and who probably worked an hour or two. They received the pay for a full day’s work.

This led the other workers to think that they would get more, because they had been there all day. But they were wrong--they all received the same thing, a full day’s wages. This landowner was certainly unconventional.

Quite understandably, the workers who had been there all day complained to the landowner. They thought it was unfair that the men who worked only a little should get as much as they. Most workers would think the same thing. But the landowner simply had to remind them of the facts of the case, and that ended the discussion.

III. THE MASTER PAYS HIS WORKERS FAIRLY BECAUSE IT IS BY GRACE (14-16).
In response to the complaint the landowner simply had to remind the workers of a few important points. He paid the early workers exactly what He promised, what they agreed to. So they had no reason to complain. And since He was the landowner, he was free to offer the other workers what He thought was fair if they would come and work as well. And finally, He told the workers to take their wage and go. There was no chance of their changing His mind; and nothing good would come out of their wanting more than the later workers, for there was no law that said he had to pay everyone proportionately.

The final point of the story says that the last will be first and the first will be last, a statement made elsewhere in the Gospel. At the least this statement says that the Lord cannot be held to social convention or custom in the way that He rewards people; but it certainly also says that His pact with each group is fair--and generous since without it they would have nothing. In other words, it is by grace that He rewards the workers, just as it was by grace He offered them the place.

Formulating the Lesson
Was this story prompted by the disciples claim that they had left everything to follow Christ, implying that they deserved some kind of reward for their service? Most likely, for Peter thought he should receive more than the rich young man would have. After all, they were the first to leave everything and follow Him. This lesson was apparently prompted by the event that led to the teaching on wealth and the kingdom and concluded with the same theme of the last being first. But the message here goes even further, to the general call to faithful discipleship.

We may form the interlocking lessons out of the answers of the landowner at the end of the story, for those represent the teachings of Jesus on reward for faithfulness.

1. The Lord is sovereign over His kingdom. Because He is the landowner, He can pay people whatever He wants to pay them, as long as He is just. And no one here could accuse Him of being unjust. He owed no man an explanation of His dealings with the workers in the vineyard. He arranged for the first workers to be paid a day’s wages--that was fair. But the other workers He only promised a fair wage, and He certainly was more than fair there.

In God’s kingdom, then, He is absolutely sovereign and He can deal with all people in whatever way He chooses. He is free to give some people more than others in relationship to their years of service or contribution. He alone makes the decisions of what to give people for service, how to use them (all day or not), and how to reward their faithfulness. And no one can challenge the decision of the sovereign Lord.

2. Everyone who serves the Lord will be treated fairly. The workers either got what they agreed to, or they got more. In fact, the latter servants came to work without an exact agreement, so they were actually trusting the landowner that they would receive a fair wage. They did not have a settled agreement fixed. And because they trusted His equity, they were rewarded with the same wage that the others who worked all day were receiving. But they got theirs first when the owner paid the wages. This no doubt was designed to underscore the point that the last shall be first.

3. How the Lord treats all of His servants is by grace. Until the workers were approached by the landowner, they had no work. If He had not found them and arranged for them to enter his vineyard, they would have remained with nothing. No one can complain that such a gracious provision is unfair--unless they think that everything must be based in a legal arrangement. Everyone should be thankful that God opened up the opportunity for service.

The story starts out with a conventional plot, hiring day workers. But it turns at the end to what is totally unconventional, so that the people who worked the least got equal pay. How is it possible that the last shall be first? Not by agreement and not by contract--but by grace and grace alone. As 19:30 reminded us, with God all things are possible, and especially this work of grace that the last is first. If God extends grace to people at the eleventh hour, and they respond, trusting in His goodness, they will also receive what He promised others. If God calls people into service in His vineyard, and they serve Him faithfully, both the calling and the reward is by grace, especially if their work was not a full day.

4. The workers should be pleased with what He gives them, and not concerned with what He gives other people. If the workers were genuinely pleased to receive the work and the day’s wages, they would have focused on that, and not on another worker’s packet. It is when people start comparing what God has given to other believers that they begin to judge God’s fairness. But in the final analysis it is not by length of service, or amount of work, that grace operates--it is based on what He chooses to give.

The warning to each of us is not to be proud of what we have done and expect more than those whom we think have done less. After all, if we have done more, or done it longer, it is only because by His grace He made the opportunity available earlier for us. The word here drives us back to the instruction that whether He gives us a whole day, or just an hour, we must serve Him faithfully and trust that we will enter into the reward that He has in store for those who are faithful. That God chose any one of us for His vineyard is amazing. We should rejoice in that, and rejoice in the fact that He is still inviting otherwise “unemployed” folks to join.

In the final analysis this story is basically about people responding to the opportunity to work in His vineyard when the invitation is made to them. For some the arrangements are clear, for others they are not, but in both cases the Lord deals justly and fairly with His people. It is not a parable about salvation per se, but about working in His vineyard, and the rewards that will be given for faithfulness. The bottom line is that people should be ready to respond to the opportunity for service, and rejoice in what He gives us as a reward for our service. He alone knows the value of each person’s service for His kingdom. But we can all rest assured that when the opportunity and the rewards come from the gracious Lord, they will be just and generous.

FROM THE SERIES: AN EXPOSITION OF THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:11 PM

The miracle of Jesus is right up to that last breath we can be saved.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:17 PM

Interesting thread.

We all wrestle mentally with the what/how/where/why of God's Repetitive story. The process; asking questions, answering, debate, agreement, argument, gathering of thoughts is how all of us have been taught now for 500 years, and has been how all humans in civilized regions have been taught since the end of the "Middle Ages." Or as some refer to them, the "Medieval Period," signifying the 1000 years when the orthodoxy of Christianity was slandered and taught with much heresy thrown in. The original faith had been corrupted, some said. Thus sprang Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and many more to reclaim the orthodoxy of the Christian faith from those who had perverted it. The western Catholic church had already begun to purge itself from historical heresies lodged within it during that time.

During the 1400-1500's came the wonderment of the Renaissance and the "Age of Discovery." We're all products of that age sitting here as we type away, as education was opened up to more of the masses in a time in history when most were illiterate. Education was formalized with "teachers" of knowledge being placed in institutions of learning, and learning changed to one where great summas (summaries) were the objective. No longer did you learn theology and math, and science at a monastery. Now you could learn great things outside the theological backdrop.

How would I get a bigger summary of what I know? By asking questions of someone else to see what they know, and then I respond with what I think. This was a novel and new process developed during this time. The more I ask, the more I can write down. The more someone disagrees with me, the more I can investigate, especially if I lived in that new era of discovery. I could then, write that I have discovered and someone else has not. How intoxicating. I could make a name for myself. I could make a bigger name for myself if I argued with more people at one time. Thus it was discovered during that time of great thinkers and new discoveries, that I can become my own brand of God... being revered and cherished by the illiterates simply by answering the perplexing questions of my day. Or I could be called greater still if I had answers about the past, or even the future! Like a prophet I would be known! I have found truth! Absolute truth! I am great!

Here we all are, 500 years later and many in society now say they and they alone (with the help of what their friends who agree with them say or what they've looked up on the internet. After all, we don't usually hang around those who argue with us) are the holders of what good and evil are = truth. You don't even have to be taught by teachers now, we're told, to have great thoughts yourself as the rational, humanistic era thinkers of the 1700-1800's have now developed such a process, that we can deem not only what is right and wrong, good and evil.... we are now holders of the truth of what is just and unjust! Fair! Justice! Equality! We're there. Humans have evolved from apes to now be so developed, and with such brain power, that we now see perfectly what is rational, irrational, what is real, what is fake. Some can now holler, "that is cruel! Killing animals is not fair to the animal! trappers are murderers! (same mental theme - just a different group of folks).
Or Pantheists, those like Buddists and Hindus, who say there really isn't good and evil because God is in every particle.
Some say there is no Christian God and they point to the works of man to prove it - what preachers preach. What they and others have deemed as "fair." How others act. What a God should or shouldn't do according to how they would structure it. What a God, all powerful, all knowing, all capable should or shouldn't do, and if not.... well there can't be a God.

But some of us believe, but cannot prove
that the Bible of the Christian faith is inerrant, without error - in it's ORIGINAL form - written by human hands with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If you want to read the original biblical Scriptural text, in the original languages - from Moses to the writer of Revelation, you can learn them yourself - or next best, with one level of interpretation, learn from someone who learned them.

Did you know;
Because of this educational history I've summarized in high point form,
We've all been taught What God is in our western churches for the past 300 years or so. We teach and learn from that era of great summas. Ideas. Debate. Learning, Ideas. Debate. All to strive to learn more about What God is or isn't.

But the Bible teaches Who God is.
There's an infinite difference between the two.

[Linked Image]

While some attempt to figure out how to travel 1,000,000 light years away, perhaps we should just marvel at the One who created it all.

Blessings to my trapping brothers and sisters,
Mark



Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:34 PM

Yes!

If they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior!

Your question would be better suited if you asked if someone who denies Christ can go to heaven. Then the answer would be no for whosoever that person may be ("Christian" or pagan alike).

You all always seem to forget, ignore, or get confused by the fact that we are all sinners (even Christians) and that God sent His Son to die on the cross so that all mankind would have a way to heaven. It's not that Christians are better than you! It's that we have realized we are sick in sin and are in need of a Savior therefore accepting Christ as that Savior. And even that doesn't stop us from being who we are (human with human nature). It's your own pride and flesh that make you not want God! And it's your own pride and flesh that will condem you to H3ll. Not God!!!!!! YOU! You obviously know better, and are better than our creator. So carry on! One thing is for sure. You won't be able to say this Christian didn't do his job of warning you. God will ask you some day and you will have nothing to say but that it's your fault! And then you will know what it's like to have a God who truly doesn't know you! And then it won't matter what you were here in this life. You will be cast into H3ll all the same!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:44 PM

Sometimes it's just good to stop for a sec,
as you're looking for coyote tracks,
pulling yet another raccoon from a DP
or emptying your leaky waders on a beaver dam,

to say thank you.
to the One who made your day
and all around you possible.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:44 PM

Amen.
Posted By: TreedaBlackdog

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by grumley701
Ray Comfort has a pretty good test if you think you are worthy..



Thats good! Not one of us is worthy - hence our need for Christs redeeming blood.
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:47 PM

Your good deeds won't save you! All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord! Doesn't matter how good or bad you are period! Only sin that will forever condem you to H3ll is rejecting His Son Jesus Christ!


Romans 3:22-23,25-28 KJVS
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] [b]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b]
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:51 PM

But

Who you are here will be judged!

In terms of those who chose H3ll: your deeds will dictate how far you fall!

In terms of those who chose Christ: will be your rewards in heaven
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:54 PM

Choose hades? Choose Christ? Where do you get this stuff? Just because you think its a real thing doesn't mean everyone does. The idea of a hades or a man god is so ridiculous I honestly don't know how any rational person could believe they exist.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by brianmall
Your good deeds won't save you! All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord! Doesn't matter how good or bad you are period! Only sin that will forever condem you to H3ll is rejecting His Son Jesus Christ!


Romans 3:22-23,25-28 KJVS
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] [b]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b]

Actually there are two types of sins
Mortal sins are contrasted with venial sins, which usually involve a less serious action and are committed with less self-awareness of wrongdoing. While a venial sin weakens the sinner's union with God, it is not a deliberate turning away from him and so does not wholly block the inflow of sanctifying grace.
Britannica.com › topic › cardinal-sin
mortal sin | Definition & Examples | Britannica
What is considered a mortal sin?
According to Catholicism, a venial sin is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by danny clifton
Choose hades? Choose Christ? Where do you get this stuff? Just because you think its a real thing doesn't mean everyone does. The idea of a hades or a man god is so ridiculous I honestly don't know how any rational person could believe they exist.



Why? For what proof do you have to make such claims?

We're your here at the begining of time? Science right? What?
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by brianmall
Your good deeds won't save you! All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord! Doesn't matter how good or bad you are period! Only sin that will forever condem you to H3ll is rejecting His Son Jesus Christ!


Romans 3:22-23,25-28 KJVS
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] [b]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b]

Actually there are two types of sins
Mortal sins are contrasted with venial sins, which usually involve a less serious action and are committed with less self-awareness of wrongdoing. While a venial sin weakens the sinner's union with God, it is not a deliberate turning away from him and so does not wholly block the inflow of sanctifying grace.
Britannica.com › topic › cardinal-sin
mortal sin | Definition & Examples | Britannica
What is considered a mortal sin?
According to Catholicism, a venial sin is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God



We call it reprobate.

Still, All I said I'd biblical.

And this is why you shouldn't trust men (Catholicism)! Your priest will be leading you straight to H3ll.
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:02 PM

But yes Bruce

At some point your sin can cause you to pass a no turning back point in which God gives you over to reprobate mind.

And maybe even demonic possession!
Posted By: BernieB.

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:04 PM

Anyone who thinks you need to be good enough for God, or that there is some kind of balance or being virtuous enough, just needs to look at the two thieves on the crosses on either side of Jesus. One had been a lifelong criminal but moments before he died, he gave verbal witness that he believed Jesus was God and he was saved to go to heaven right then and there, moments before his death. That moment right there encapsulated the entire Gospel.

I have been asked, why do bad things happen to good people? Well, because there are no good people. We are all sinners. We do not have the ability to choose which people we think are goo based on our own standards. Not long ago I was having a conversation with a Catholic about grace and forgiveness and salvation and he kept adamantly saying that we have to live up to God's standards. He just couldn't let go of that. My answer was this: God doesn't have standards! He has just one standard, perfection. God is perfect and no one who is imperfect can be in his presence. We cannot live up to His standard so we must depend on Jesus who put our sin to death on the cross and defeated that death. When Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life, he was saying that he is the only portal to God and an eternity with God in heaven.This is the entire theme of Christianity and permeates the entire Bible. Unfortunately it has been perverted by many religions that want to serve themselves rather than God and the Catholics are number one in that category, but there are many others from legalistic Baptists, TV evangelists and right on down the line.

We just need to keep the main thing the main thing, the devil has a lot of ways to get us off course.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Choose hades? Choose Christ? Where do you get this stuff? Just because you think its a real thing doesn't mean everyone does. The idea of a hades or a man god is so ridiculous I honestly don't know how any rational person could believe they exist.

I look at it this way.I have nothing to loose.If I'm wrong we both rot in the ground but if your wrong you won't be rotting in the ground.
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:07 PM

To all Catholics and Prodistant denominations

I do believe there are truly saved folks in these denominations! But it's because you or your priest were actually reading and preaching God's word! And you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior.

You all need to read some history books though. For years you all killed those around you for doing just that!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Choose hades? Where do you get this stuff? Just because you think its a real thing doesn't mean everyone does. The idea of a hades is so ridiculous I honestly don't know how any rational person could believe it exists.


Good point danny.
For those who don't have faith in the God of the Bible
They sure don't have faith in the Inspired Word of it.
Why would they? It's foolishness to them.

The era of humanism (rationalism) you speak of danny started back about 300 years ago and really gained momentum of intellect in the 1800's.
If something could not be
duplicated
and/or
observed
it was deemed false.

That's where we are today.
Boy-oh-boy, how often do we all follow that "rationale!"
I know I'm guilty far too often.

And then I wonder, how come, Darwin and his family and crew of evolutionists never demonstrated repeatability and visibility of their thesis - the premise that changed all of our world so completely? They never made a species transform (poof) into another species. They didn't have to fit the rational criteria of their 1800 days? How come? You know there's never yet been a proven trans- species transformation (evolution). One species becomes another. Strong survives and (poof) one species becomes another. That way goo from the swamp can crawl up and become rational thinkers on TMan. Easy-peasy.
But it's not proven. None of it. Never has been.
Yet, our teachers told us all of it as "fact." Correct?
We believe it (most - but not me).
Why?
Because we don't want to believe that we are not able to deem what is good in our eyes, and we don't like other folks telling us that either.
Now that CAN be observed and replicated. I just have to walk down the street.

As it was in the original creation, the woman - not yet called Eve - decided, that she could see-take-decide what is good in her eyes.

Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by brianmall
To all Catholics and Prodistant denominations

I do believe there are truly saved folks in these denominations! But it's because you or your priest were actually reading and preaching God's word! And you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior.

You all need to read some history books though. For years you all killed those around you for doing just that!!!

I would sure hate to be them facing God.
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:12 PM

Lol

There is actually a Prodistant priest on record saying that all his chickens were turning to ducks as he preached from the Bible. Meaning once he broke away from all the position and tradition and started shucking it down to the cob. His congregation became something else! Then they were labeled Anna Baptist and we're killed by the other prodistants and Catholics.
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:13 PM

Read trail of blood or day in Baptist history.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:13 PM

It's gonna be the serious moment when our Lord says, "Can I speak with you in private for a moment?"
Posted By: brianmall

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:17 PM

Gonna go run dogs

So I'll exit by saying there are some Prodistant folks out there that are more Baptist than some "Baptist" are! Just haven't changed the name on the sign yet! There are some Baptist churches that should take the name off!
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by brianmall
Lol

There is actually a Prodistant priest on record saying that all his chickens were turning to ducks as he preached from the Bible. Meaning once he broke away from all the position and tradition and started shucking it down to the cob. His congregation became something else! Then they were labeled Anna Baptist and we're killed by the other prodistants and Catholics.

So they were going against Gods wishes by killing people and are no longer part of Jesus's church.Jesus warned to not change one word in his church or you are no longer following his church.
Posted By: Rolee

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:21 PM

No christ no heaven
Know christ know heaven
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:23 PM

Mark I wasn't alive 300 years ago

Bernie are you saying when a 3 year old is suffering because of a horrible cancer, or starving to death in Somalia, or even born addicted to heroin or crack, it is because they are a sinner and deserve it?
Posted By: LLtrapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by BernieB.
Anyone who thinks you need to be good enough for God, or that there is some kind of balance or being virtuous enough, just needs to look at the two thieves on the crosses on either side of Jesus. One had been a lifelong criminal but moments before he died, he gave verbal witness that he believed Jesus was God and he was saved to go to heaven right then and there, moments before his death. That moment right there encapsulated the entire Gospel.

I have been asked, why do bad things happen to good people? Well, because there are no good people. We are all sinners. We do not have the ability to choose which people we think are goo based on our own standards. Not long ago I was having a conversation with a Catholic about grace and forgiveness and salvation and he kept adamantly saying that we have to live up to God's standards. He just couldn't let go of that. My answer was this: God doesn't have standards! He has just one standard, perfection. God is perfect and no one who is imperfect can be in his presence. We cannot live up to His standard so we must depend on Jesus who put our sin to death on the cross and defeated that death. When Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life, he was saying that he is the only portal to God and an eternity with God in heaven.This is the entire theme of Christianity and permeates the entire Bible. Unfortunately it has been perverted by many religions that want to serve themselves rather than God and the Catholics are number one in that category, but there are many others from legalistic Baptists, TV evangelists and right on down the line.

We just need to keep the main thing the main thing, the devil has a lot of ways to get us off course.


Thanks Bernie. You are spot on. I have had similar conversations about this very thing. How do God fearing folks vote for someone who thinks marriage is man on man or woman on woman? How do they vote for folks who want abortion to be used as birth control? Lots of people are perverted because they are told what to believe instead of reading God's holy word and letting the Spirit of the Lord interpret that into their minds. LLL
Posted By: adam m

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by James
I was raised Catholic and taught you get to heaven through belief in Jesus AND through good works. I've been told many Protestants dispense with the second requirement.

I used to torment my parents with questions like this one: If Adolf Hitler had accepted Jesus, after taking the cyanide pill, would he be in heaven--alongside the six million Jews who were his victims?

As a variation of Pascal's wager, how about if you lead a debauched, wicked life, with the plan of accepting Jesus on your death bed? Of course, your conversion would have to be sincere--but sincerity would be easy if you're looking at eternity.

Jim


Same here James. My testimony of my salvation is a long one.

1) protestants disagree with Catholics about works as a requirement salvation because if you are saved you will desire to do the will of God. The will of God is way more than God deeds Hebrews 11 is a perfect example. It talks about many people who showed their faith through works even though some of those works were sacrificial like Abraham offering up Isaac, moses suffering affliction, the walls of Jericho fell faith etc... keep in mind that when the Bible is talking about faith and works together, works is not just good or bad deeds it is doing the will of God.

2) Hitler, or any other person could receive salvation at the last moment. The kicker is most don't know when they are going to die. The problem lies at the heart, a person can run from the calling of salvation but they eventually will accept it. The apostle Paul is a good example.
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by brianmall
To all Catholics and Prodistant denominations

I do believe there are truly saved folks in these denominations! But it's because you or your priest were actually reading and preaching God's word! And you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior.

You all need to read some history books though. For years you all killed those around you for doing just that!!!

I would sure hate to be them facing God.

So, you both say that all the Catholic and all the Protestant denominations are wrong in their doctrines? I'd like to see a list of heresies by denomination and can you specify which non- protestant denomination is right?
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Choose hades? Choose Christ? Where do you get this stuff? Just because you think its a real thing doesn't mean everyone does. The idea of a hades or a man god is so ridiculous I honestly don't know how any rational person could believe they exist.


It's admittedly hard to accept some things written in the Bible. We believe for example, that only two of every kind of animal were saved from a flood, and that every animal today descended from them. Dogs for example....there were two canines, and every dog, wolf, coyote, and fox descended from them. Seems kinda ridiculous, sure. But an atheist believes those dogs, wolves, coyotes, and foxes descended from non-living stuff that suddenly by accident became alive and then ate stuff and then by accident became a multi-celled plant and then accidentally became an animal in the ocean and then accidentally became a land animal and then accidentally became a wolf. Which is more ridiculous?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Mark I wasn't alive 300 years ago

Bernie are you saying when a 3 year old is suffering because of a horrible cancer, or starving to death in Somalia, or even born addicted to heroin or crack, it is because they are a sinner and deserve it?


danny, you missed the point of my point...
I wasn't labeling you sir. I was just pointing out the history of our learning. Of all of us.
But some don't care about history and that's fine too.
And then you use the processes of the point of my point to "ask" Bernie a question.

When we ask questions, are we seeking answers? With open minds?
Or are we setting the table with a transactional move so that we can tell someone what we deem as truth? This is most commonly done now.
And that's what was first taught 300 years ago as a way to think, speak, interact. Our fore-fathers thought and I suppose we now do the same, that this is the way in which we're "educated" to things.
But we typically seek first, the kingdom of man, by habit, by training, and the urging of many around us.
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:42 PM

Faith is belief only, it does not make works or do the will of God. Those who cry "Lord Lord " and are turned away are examples of Faith, they wail because they truly believed they would be saved without "work".
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 02:54 PM

Tjm all I'm saying is that when those that are the church leaders or what ever that go against Gods wishes will be held accountable by God as well.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:11 PM

yes mark, it is easier to explain why i can not believe by asking questions.
Posted By: rex123

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:15 PM

I won't right a bunch of lines on what I think because this post is all over the place from my way or the high way to nothing here just words. God or belief in him boils down to one word FAITH you have it or you don't .
Posted By: FairbanksLS

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by rex123
I won't right a bunch of lines on what I think because this post is all over the place from my way or the high way to nothing here just words. God or belief in him boils down to one word FAITH you have it or you don't .


Short, sweet, and to the point. I like it.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:34 PM

I've lived a good part of my life without Jesus and another part of my life with Jesus. I have no doubts about the truth.
Posted By: Mack

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:34 PM

Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mack
Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.

Be sad to not be able to at least warn other people about the truth.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:48 PM

I don't think humankind coulda come up with all these languages crazy crazy
There must be a God at the helm.
This stuff is way too tough

[Linked Image]

Makes catching a quad on coyotes look easy peasy.

We're reminded here at Seminary that we are studying at a library of 380,000 books written about one Book.
Need to keep some stuff in perspective.
But God gave us a brain to use it, we suppose smile
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mack
Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.

Why? Nobody on here is personally attacking another.. Doesn't seem like too much anger going on. Just a group of people discussing their disagreements like a majority of the treads on here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
yes mark, it is easier to explain why i can not believe by asking questions.


Understood sir. Understood. Makes sense.
Seeking knowledge is deemed productive by both society and God.
Posted By: Scout1

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:00 PM

Ask the thief hanging to the right of Christ at the Crucifixion!
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Scout1
Ask the thief hanging to the right of Christ at the Crucifixion!

Exactly right.
Posted By: Donnersurvivor

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mack
Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.


Pretty easy to just scroll past those threads... It seems to be important to alot of members and they seem to enjoy the discussion, whats the harm?
Posted By: Getting There

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:04 PM

There is no answer to the question because they are dead. The rest is just hear say or something a live person wrote. JMO
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Getting There
There is no answer to the question because they are dead. The rest is just hear say or something a live person wrote. JMO

There's been people that have been brought back that say differently.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:13 PM

Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.
Proverbs 27:17
Posted By: Getting There

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by Getting There
There is no answer to the question because they are dead. The rest is just hear say or something a live person wrote. JMO

There's been people that have been brought back that say differently.


The were not dead then were they, only my medical standers.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by rex123
God or belief in him boils down to one word FAITH you have it or you don't .


Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Sometimes we're afraid to ask for fear we might get an answer. There are a couple of postures a sinner can take. He can shake his fist at God and demand an answer or he can humbly ask God to reveal himself.

The defiant act seems to work, at least in the short term. You get no answer. It takes far more courage to open yourself up to God and allow him to reveal you to yourself. That's why Adam chose a fig leaf.
Posted By: Sprung & Rusty

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Getting There
There is no answer to the question because they are dead. The rest is just hear say or something a live person wrote. JMO


I disagree.
Posted By: LLtrapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mack
Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.


Not going to happen. The Boss man is a Christian and upholds Christian beliefs. One of the reasons I stick around here. LLL
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:11 PM

As a child growing up in a Catholic school, I was taught that suicide was a mortal sin. Therefore, according to my teachings, if Hitler repented before he shot himself, he would still burn in eternity for murdering himself.
Nobody still hasn’t answered one of my questions in this thread. Would a fair and righteous God send a non-believer virtuous person to the same place to rot as a mass murdering monster such as Adolph Hitler who caused untold hideous suffering?
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
Nobody still hasn’t answered one of my questions in this thread. Would a fair and righteous God send a non-believer virtuous person to the same place to rot as a mass murdering monster such as Adolph Hitler who caused untold hideous suffering?

Yes
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
Nobody still hasn’t answered one of my questions in this thread. Would a fair and righteous God send a non-believer virtuous person to the same place to rot as a mass murdering monster such as Adolph Hitler who caused untold hideous suffering?


Yes


If that is the case then all I can say is Wow!
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:22 PM

They both are bad Grandpa Trapper.Be it murder or denying God and Jesus.Both will land you in the bad place unless you repent and truly regret your sins before you die.
Posted By: HondaXR250

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:23 PM

God only loves his children that give money to the church.
Posted By: Sprung & Rusty

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by HondaXR250
God only loves his children that give money to the church.


That's only the Catholics. laugh
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by HondaXR250
God only loves his children that give money to the church.

Not true at all.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
Nobody still hasn’t answered one of my questions in this thread. Would a fair and righteous God send a non-believer virtuous person to the same place to rot as a mass murdering monster such as Adolph Hitler who caused untold hideous suffering?

Yes

My understanding is Jesus provides a way, then we make a choice. So I dont believe God sends anyone to hades but rather we chose it.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by LLtrapper
Originally Posted by Mack
Maybe "Religious Beliefs" should be one of the topics listed at the top of the page that is off limits.


Not going to happen. The Boss man is a Christian and upholds Christian beliefs. One of the reasons I stick around here. LLL

Me Also

Theres several other Barroom trapping forum board sites like that This Site is unique in being Kid friendly
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by HondaXR250
God only loves his children that give money to the church.

Not true at all.


I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:53 PM

Lots of motives to the forming of a Denomination

Some good some become cults
Posted By: DelawareRob

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 05:56 PM

This may or may not help

Attached picture 503B0F61-4A66-4B2E-85EE-1812286A8BD3.jpeg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:05 PM

What happens to us after we die is a level of consciousness that we cannot comprehend. As vain and selfish humans we try to define it ......hence the number of religions that exist. I think we all have a soul and therefore I am a spiritual being. IMO organized religion and it's enforcement has been the cause of war and genocide and tragedy throughout history. If you feel you need a strict religious belief system to treat others well then you already have a problem.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by MsgRet
What happens to us after we die is a level of consciousness that we cannot comprehend. As vain and selfish humans we try to define it ......hence the number of religions that exist. I think we all have a soul and therefore I am a spiritual being. IMO organized religion and it's enforcement has been the cause of war and genocide and tragedy throughout history. If you feel you need a strict religious belief system to treat others well then you already have a problem.


I think it has more to do with being curious than being vain and selfish, but I otherwise tend to agree.

Keith
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by MsgRet
What happens to us after we die is a level of consciousness that we cannot comprehend. As vain and selfish humans we try to define it ......hence the number of religions that exist. I think we all have a soul and therefore I am a spiritual being. IMO organized religion and it's enforcement has been the cause of war and genocide and tragedy throughout history. If you feel you need a strict religious belief system to treat others well then you already have a problem.

The number of religions are due to someone not agreeing with something and starting their own religion.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:22 PM

I guess what I meant is that we often fear what we don't know and the vanity and selfishness begins when a group of people think that their view of the unknown is the only correct view and they impose it on others.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by MsgRet
What happens to us after we die is a level of consciousness that we cannot comprehend. As vain and selfish humans we try to define it ......hence the number of religions that exist. I think we all have a soul and therefore I am a spiritual being. IMO organized religion and it's enforcement has been the cause of war and genocide and tragedy throughout history. If you feel you need a strict religious belief system to treat others well then you already have a problem.

The number of religions are due to someone not agreeing with something and starting their own religion.


If it is so important to God for people to believe and act in a very specific way, why would an omnipotent, all powerful being allow so much confusion? I would posit that the small differences are not important to him.

Keith
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by MsgRet
I guess what I meant is that we often fear what we don't know and the vanity and selfishness begins when a group of people think that their view of the unknown is the only correct view and they impose it on others.

There are many views but for me I will have to go with the one started from Jesus himself and his disciples.I need all the help I can get.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:29 PM

Keith because God gave us free will.He wants us to come to him.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Keith because God gave us free will.He wants us to come to him.


Bruce there are over 4200 commonly recognized religions in the world, many hundreds of them Christian religions. Do you believe that you only have to accept Jesus Christ or that you have to be the one specific and correct Christian religion?

Keith
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:43 PM

There is confusion on this site that what some people do in the name of religion - perhaps the Christian theology - or perhaps in the name of other theologies, is supposed to be perfection? Who has that idea? That thinking is surely a seed plant from the current prince of the power of earth, given to those who would water it, watch it grow, and ultimately declare with boasting, "there is no God!" That conclusion however is a statement of faith at its core. I'm not sure it's spot on however.

Also perhaps some confusion about;

A. Why is there something instead of nothing?
B. Why do I exist?
C. Why are there moral standards worldwide, regardless of culture?

There are some deep theological reasonings pointing us to solid evidence of an eternal Being with a designer's plan, but we could never absolutely prove it. I could list them, but not sure how many would truly be interested in the deeper theology.
We have a saying here at DTS that we use a lot.
"We can never know God exhaustively but we can know Him sufficiently" to make a faithful decision about our spirituality. Yet many seek exhaustively. Satan loves that thinking.

But we wonder;
Who said we're due anything - of any nature in our life?
And who declared anything about all that we claim we know? Ma or Pa Experience? I'm thinking that truth might vary house to house, country to country.
And how did galaxies get a million light years away from each other anyway? Who created that? Was it Poof? Bang? Did my really nice neighbor who's a loving husband create it? He's a great golfer. Or maybe that crabby dude down the road? He knows everything or so he says.

I would offer that never were any of us promised anything by a Christian God, or otherwise, (unless you're a Universalist where everyone is assured of salvation), just because we breath the air given us daily. I also offer the a portion of the biblical narrative (story), in that there's only one way Satan can get between God and His created in the Restorative narrative that is unfolding as our hair grays develop. He can't stop God so he stops the created as best he can with power we don't fully understand.
And that is to make us (created image bearers) think that we are alone, we don't matter, and that there is no purpose to why we are here.

How's that plan working for the "Enlightened Multitudes?"
Interesting how American's are the richest nation that's every been but the loneliest (chronically 30%), most stressed (>75%), maybe most drug seeking nation that's ever been.
How's that possible? All the great thinkers, who got us here, with their super duper planning have given us comfort but we don't even know, or want to know our neighbor? Was that the "plan?"

Maybe the Prince of darkness has shaded too many from too much and it'd be much better of some of the worries about what this pastor did, or what Churches used to do, or what my dad told me to think, are rethought, so that people might live a bit better. Worth a shot.

The end result for all who breath is the same. We stop breathing. We die.
What happens after that may be of more interest to us after we stop breathing then any of us can fathom.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by Scout1
Ask the thief hanging to the right of Christ at the Crucifixion!

Exactly right.

No Sir, At the point the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when he entered into his kingdom, the thief was neither atheist or agnostic.

At that point in time when they were together the thief BELIEVED and had FAITH that Christ could save him, and just by his asking, it was done.... Christ himself said that the thief would be with him in Paradise.

Clearly the thief hadn't lived his best life prior.

This also rules out works being essential to salvation IMO...Yes, works are good stuff, and you hear faith without works is dead, but not a deal breaker to salvation IMO.

Maybe works comes into play more with the 3 degrees of heaven discussed in Luke.

Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by DelawareRob
This may or may not help

Clever, cute and correct.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by Bruce T
Keith because God gave us free will.He wants us to come to him.


Bruce there are over 4200 commonly recognized religions in the world, many hundreds of them Christian religions. Do you believe that you only have to accept Jesus Christ or that you have to be the one specific and correct Christian religion?

Keith

Accepting Jesus Christ is the key and regretting our sins and also for me is receiving his sacrament at church.No to one specific religion being the only people making it to heaven. .
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by DelawareRob
This may or may not help

Won't be that simple.You won't be able to recognize Jesus.He with come in many forms.Maybe a beggar asking for food.A lost boy asking for help.Someone fallen and hurt and needs help,etc.,etc.
Posted By: Preacherman Les

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by KeithC

I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith


That is a lie. It is an idea promoted by those who want to choose their own path rather than follow "the way, the truth and the life." You as with all things in a free-will existence are free to believe the lie if you so choose and even promote it.
Posted By: Preacherman Les

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:04 PM

I also (as others have already mentioned) appreciate Mr. Dobbins maintaining a clean, kid-friendly site.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Preacherman Les
I also (as others have already mentioned) appreciate Mr. Dobbins maintaining a clean, kid-friendly site.

Ditto.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Preacherman Les
Originally Posted by KeithC

I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith


That is a lie. It is an idea promoted by those who want to choose their own path rather than follow "the way, the truth and the life." You as with all things in a free-will existence are free to believe the lie if you so choose and even promote it.


What part is a lie?

Keith
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:13 PM

Quote


I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith


Hey Keith There is one religion where the preachers/bishops are not paid.
It's the one this bunch burned at the stake in another thread a few days ago.

That's right it's the MORMONS!

The only paid person on church property is the janitor.

grin
Posted By: Preacherman Les

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton

In His image....I often wonder what the immortal humans image was like, I've only known the mortal.


So did Paul.
Posted By: Preacherman Les

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by KeithC


What part is a lie?

Keith


Well I tried to quote but there are too many levels.
wealth, power, giving money to God, extortion, control; in short your doctrine in its entirety:
Posted By: Preacherman Les

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by ky_coyote_hunter
Quote


I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith


He Keith There is one religion where the preachers/bishops are not paid.
It's the one this bunch burned at the stake in another thread a few days ago.

That's right it's the MORMONS!

The only paid person on church property is the janitor.

grin


Why is the janitor paid? Is his/her work not valuable or helpful?
Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:39 PM

The Bible teaches us that God made humans in his image. This image is how humans look at present. However, the Neanderthal Man, Homo Erectus, or ancient Homo Sapiens or whoever was the first individuals that could reason and think looked like hairy apes and were not eye appealing. So did God make himself in early man’s Image or decide to change it to how we look now. A friend of mine asked a priest this and the priest said that was a stupid question. I said the priest didn’t know how to answer it so he just shrugged the question off. Maybe somebody on here can answer this question.
Posted By: MNCedar

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
It's gonna be the serious moment when our Lord says, "Can I speak with you in private for a moment?"


Word up, Homie! Now that is beautifully stated.

I do have my qualms with the ways in which, historically speaking, belief systems have at times led humanity astray. All that aside, I have found that the conversational approach as quoted above has been so helpful in fostering my relationship with my Higher Power. It helps me to get out of my own head. It helps me to stop overcomplicating something that is, at its core, so simple.

[Linked Image]

Speaking of those questions.....These are a few that the comments on this thread brought to mind and I'm asking them in all sincerity. (The first being why, even in this image, Jesus is portrayed as rather Cesare Borgia looking and is for some reason "whiter" than those surrounding him. But that is a little off-topic...)

As is par for the course, human beings have the uncanny ability to OVERCOMPLICATE everything, constantly. Are many of the replies on this thread an example of overcomplication?

Did Jesus ever direct followers to worship him directly as a god? Or did he offer himself as the means with which one becomes closer to Him, meaning God, and that as a result of his death the sin of man was absolved? Through this absolution of sin, he allowed humans, should they choose, to follow his teachings and live a life that could be deemed worthy of salvation?

Are the teaching of Jesus the toolkit, or means, that allow a human to live in a manner that will ultimately bring him or her into a higher relationship with God?

Those of you saying NO to the original post....If you could somehow tell Jesus all the ways in which you, as a mortal human, judged who among you deserved to burn eternally, would Jesus be supportive of that? Or would he perhaps try to direct you toward other behaviors?

I would also strongly encourage any that answer to do so without making obscure, ambiguous scripture references. Quoting scripture works great for people who quote scripture. It can at times be far from persuading to people who don't.

I'm going to pour this thermos of homemade kombucha, check beaver traps, and try to not condemn my fellow humans to eternal suffering today.

Deuces.


Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:51 PM

[Linked Image][/quote]
Love all people but hate the sin.Its all right in the bible.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:55 PM

granpa trapper so does god look like an australian aborigine or maybe an indian on the amazon river, how about an inuit up on the coast of alaska, or are we sure that vikings were the humans made in gods image? maybe it is all just fairy tales invented to control wandering herdsman in ancient times and allow tribal leaders to own all the wealth?

how much money does the vatican have?

how about the baptist head office?

since somehow they are all tax exempt i doubt we ever find out. i think its safe to say the number is in the billions
Posted By: Catch22

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:59 PM

The title of the thread, to me is a misnomer. According to the Christian bible it's a blatant no. To those that do not believe, it's just another no pants Saturday.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
granpa trapper so does god look like an australian aborigine or maybe an indian on the amazon river, how about an inuit up on the coast of alaska, or are we sure that vikings were the humans made in gods image? maybe it is all just fairy tales invented to control wandering herdsman in ancient times and allow tribal leaders to own all the wealth?

how much money does the vatican have?

how about the baptist head office?

since somehow they are all tax exempt i doubt we ever find out. i think its safe to say the number is in the billions

You worry to much about money.There are much more important things in this life other then money.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Preacherman Les
Originally Posted by KeithC

I would say that's not true too. That is however what many preachers, who make their living off of people "giving money to God", want people to believe.

The primary purpose that I see organized religion used for is to control the behavior of other people to obtain wealth and power. What better tool for extortion can there be than the threat of eternal suffering if you fail to agree exactly with your pastor and do exactly as they say.

Keith


That is a lie. It is an idea promoted by those who want to choose their own path rather than follow "the way, the truth and the life." You as with all things in a free-will existence are free to believe the lie if you so choose and even promote it.


Just because you disagree with true statements does not make them lies. You can't point out a lie because there is no lie in what I said. Just search "preacher steals money" and many thousands of articles will come up proving that many preachers are in it for the money.

The "primary purpose I see" refers to my opinion that I absolutely believe to be true.

There are no lies in my statements.

Keith
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:06 PM

Keith some churches have priests not preachers.Priests in my church get just enough living expense money to get by.Thats it.Money put in the basket handed around goes to good causes and helping people around the world.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:08 PM

brucet then you should sell everything you own and give all you have acquired to the church of your choice. keep a nice warm robe and live the rest of your life without any money. by the standards of much of the world you are a rich man. we all know its harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

you will assuredly get to your heaven and test your theory on just how important money really is
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:08 PM



Quote


Why is the janitor paid? Is his/her work not valuable or helpful?


Good question...Maybe ones faith doesn't extend to cleaning toilets?

Actually the ones I've been involved with hired a contractor.

They (Mormons) pay tithing or offering to cover costs of building, utilities, etc.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
brucet then you should sell everything you own and give all you have acquired to the church of your choice. keep a nice warm robe and live the rest of your life without any money. by the standards of much of the world you are a rich man. we all know its harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

you will assuredly get to your heaven and test your theory on just how important money really is

I'm weak and can't be like Jesus's disciples.I want to hunt,trap,and fish and take care of my wife and grandson which are more important things to me then money.I could make much more money in the city but I hate the lifestyle there and would much rather live a simple life in the country.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Keith some churches have priests not preachers.Priests in my church get just enough living expense money to get by.Thats it.Money put in the basket handed around goes to good causes and helping people around the world.



That's the way it should be.

I do think there is a lot of good in some organized religions. I do unfortunately know there is a lot of bad too. When I use the word religion, I mean all the 4200 plus religions, not just Christian ones.

Keith
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 08:43 PM

MN Cedar,
I sure do like your input. It's flying over the radar at some airports, but keep that plane in the air bro.

The money issue brought up here is interesting as I read comments. It's not a sin to be rich (regardless of what Bernie says) but we have to guard against what money does to the hearts of men. Massive portions of the Scripture speak to this. Money and the accumulation of it by the Middle Ages churches was was played out in BIG fashion during Martin Luther's days in the 1500's where he witnessed the selling of remonstrances... stay outta purgatory cards so to speak, by the papacy in Rome. They were building a monstrous cathedral after all and money was needed. Many people, maybe even your ancestors were involved in that hard time. People fought long and hard and many were banished, or killed, and the Protestants or "Protestors" were begun. Are they better than any other Christian? No, but they sure do focus on God's Word as the primary means of interpretation. But many other denominations read their bibles too, so that can't be a deal breaker.

Wondering why people make analogies that are not apples to apples here?

If I say that a coyote pulled out of my trap and took off running, there are many reasons why that may have happened.
Brute strength.
Bad trap.
Bad setting technique.
I'm late.
Do we blame the trap or the coyote?
I don't know.

But the coyote is better off than if he woulda stayed in the trap. At least to him and his world. Not mine.
To say all traps are bad may not be correct.
To say all setting techniques are flawed may be incorrect.
To say I'm a lazy trapper, might not be accurate.
So the truth is elusive.
But not when you figure, I don't know it all. But then who does?
grin

The Father-Son-and Holy Spirit of the orthodox Christian faith.

I wouldn't darken the door of any of these thousands of new religions, (more will come) calling themselves Christian, that have sprung up in the last 150 years, a time that just happens to coincide with man's greatest era of humanism and human effort? Many of them are appealing because their doctrine is making man into God. Nice. The ones who say you can be a God if you do this, that, or the other. But, these religions have been around since the pagan days of Baal and before.
Or maybe the religions that promise reincarnation so you can be all you can be in this life, and then come back and try to be better next time, and the next time, and...



Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 09:08 PM

Preachers who do the preaching for free are the ones I respect the most.

They have a little more skin in the game so to speak, their heart is in the right place...Money corrupts.

Everyone thinks their the one who is right, who is really right?.. None of us!

You do the best you can, repent, and I mean of everything!
Honestly try to live sin free, study your Bible, ask Jesus to change your heart, your thoughts,
ask him to cleanse your sin with his blood and to save you.

Have a relationship with Christ, talk with him in prayer, form a relationship and watch
the changes start in your life.

This is the meat of it, the rest of the stuff people trifle over is the stuff no one on this earth has completely right.
Posted By: bblwi

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 09:57 PM

I am guessing there is no religion in Heaven. I could be wrong but that is my belief. We use religion on Earth to separate people into groups that we feel have better or worse ways to obtain an afterlife. If only Christians can go to Heaven and there are 2 billion Christians (giver or take a couple hundred million) then with 5 billion non Christians and counting there should be a lot of room for 40% of the world's population. I find scripture very spiritual, enlightening and valuable for me. The politics and dogma of religions, not so much. Many Christians seem to feel that life on Earth is sort of a purgatory prior to being granted an afterlife in Heaven. Might explain a lot about the really negative emotional tidal waves rolling through the Earth. Most other non Christians have some sorts of afterlife belief system. However many believe in forms or reincarnation to come back to Earth in a different form and thus don't see life on Earth as dismal as some Christians seem to believe. Also Agnostics don't have the same beliefs as Atheists do. Agnostics don't deny there is a God where Atheists do.

Bryce
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 09:58 PM

Doesn't a person have to drawn by the Holy Spirit. So if a guy hears a message on the Gospel but isn't being drawn, then does he really hear it ? Maybe a concern is when a person is being drawn but refuses, then the next time he refuses his heart is hardened a little more each time.

Any thoughts on double predestination, such as does a man really have a choice?
Posted By: DelawareRob

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Doesn't a person have to drawn by the Holy Spirit. So if a guy hears a message on the Gospel but isn't being drawn, then does he really hear it ? Maybe a concern is when a person is being drawn but refuses, then the next time he refuses his heart is hardened a little more each time.

Any thoughts on double predestination, such as does a man really have a choice?


I’ll say most folks have a choice. Some don’t, because they don’t ever hear about it. You know, in remote parts of the world.

But, I have noticed something, and your reference to being drawn by the Holy Spirit reminded me.

You ever notice, or anyone else, that sometimes when your reading scripture, that sometimes everything makes sense and you can’t stop reading, then sometimes you gotta read it a few times to make it make sense? Or am I the only one?
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:27 PM

Would a remote part of the world include Chicago?
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by DelawareRob
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Doesn't a person have to drawn by the Holy Spirit. So if a guy hears a message on the Gospel but isn't being drawn, then does he really hear it ? Maybe a concern is when a person is being drawn but refuses, then the next time he refuses his heart is hardened a little more each time.

Any thoughts on double predestination, such as does a man really have a choice?


I’ll say most folks have a choice. Some don’t, because they don’t ever hear about it. You know, in remote parts of the world.

But, I have noticed something, and your reference to being drawn by the Holy Spirit reminded me.

You ever notice, or anyone else, that sometimes when your reading scripture, that sometimes everything makes sense and you can’t stop reading, then sometimes you gotta read it a few times to make it make sense? Or am I the only one?


Not at all. Sometimes scripture you have read several times over several years, and never paid no mind, decides to reveal itself. Part of growth I reckon.
Posted By: gman

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:40 PM

Does anyone really want to take the chance of spending eternity in h___? Doesn't sound good to me.....
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by gman
Does anyone really want to take the chance of spending eternity in h___? Doesn't sound good to me.....

I know I sure don't.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by gman
Does anyone really want to take the chance of spending eternity in h___? Doesn't sound good to me.....


With over 4200 other choices in religions, supported by billions of other people, how is anyone supposed to know what choice keeps you out the pit. There are around 2.4 billion Christians out of close to 8 billion people in the world. Over 1.3 billion o the Christians are Catholic. Many of the huge number of Christian religions hate each other, especially hating the Catholics, over differences in belief. The message has obviously not been made clear for most people, or more would agree on 1 religion.

Keith
Posted By: Donnersurvivor

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by gman
Does anyone really want to take the chance of spending eternity in h___? Doesn't sound good to me.....


At least I'll be in good company.
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by gman
Does anyone really want to take the chance of spending eternity in h___? Doesn't sound good to me.....


With over 4200 other choices in religions, supported by billions of other people, how is anyone supposed to know what choice keeps you out the pit. There are around 2.4 billion Christians out of close to 8 billion people in the world. Over 1.3 billion o the Christians are Catholic. Many of the huge number of Christian religions hate each other, especially hating the Catholics, over differences in belief. The message has obviously not been made clear for most people, or more would agree on 1 religion.

Keith

Go with Jesus Christ.Look thru the bibles and do what Jesus would do.
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce T
Go with Jesus Christ.Look thru the bibles and do what Jesus would do.


"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I think if you try your best to follow these 2 commandments, you will come out okay, if God is truly good, which I think he is, because creation and people are overall basically good. The second commandment, with variations tends to be at the core of most religions.

Keith
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by KeithC
Originally Posted by Bruce T
Go with Jesus Christ.Look thru the bibles and do what Jesus would do.


"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I think if you try your best to follow these 2 commandments, you will come out okay, if God is truly good, which I think he is, because creation and people are overall basically good. The second commandment, with variations tends to be at the core of most religions.

Keith

You can't go wrong with that.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:42 PM

If you believe you are elected to position then doing those works mentioned above would fit. But if you are doing those works for any other reason than its what you do as an impulse because that's who you are as a believer, then your works may be void as in trying to work your way in.

If you believe you are elected to salvation purely by God's grace because you were too corrupt or not smart enough to make the choice to choose God. And none of those good works are following you then maybe you may need another dip, before you meet the status of once in grace always in grace.

I believe if the prodigal son had not returned to the Father and had a heart attack or got ate by the pigs before he returned , he would have been lost. In other words I do believe one can fall from grace.

There the cat's out of the bag !
Posted By: James

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/15/20 11:55 PM

Jesus never visited my Japanese in-laws. They never heard the Word.

My mother-in-law lived her entire life without ever a chance to be "saved," as Christians would call it. She was born and married to Shinto ceremonies, and buried according to Buddhist ones. (A curious Japanese custom.)

Jim
Posted By: Bruce T

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by James
Jesus never visited my Japanese in-laws. They never heard the Word.

My mother-in-law lived her entire life without ever a chance to be "saved," as Christians would call it. She was born and married to Shinto ceremonies, and buried according to Buddhist ones. (A curious Japanese custom.)

Jim

They might make it to heaven by not knowing any better from what I have read in the bible.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by James
Jesus never visited my Japanese in-laws. They never heard the Word.


I have a very dear friend who was a missionary pastor to Japan. A brilliant man who taught himself to speak the language and he does so fluently. He ministers to exchange students on the Fairbanks campus today. You might have heard of him. He has been a thorn in the side of the faculty for years and they've done nothing but try to run him off. You can't thwart God.
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
if they live a virtuous life?


No, I don't believe so Grandpa Trapper. Virtue is a matter of opinion among man, dependent upon what state of mind or cultural norm fits the bill.

I take the Bible very literally. The Creator of the Universe gave us an instruction notebook and set of rules to live by. It is called the Bible.

Every single one of us (Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, preachers. saints, rabbis, agnostics, and good ole boys) are doomed no matter how "virtuous" we are. WE (all of us) are doomed because we are fallen and sinful. Every single one of us is SIN positive in the eyes of a Just, Holy, Righteous, and Perfect God. This is one of the reasons so many have a hard time with Leviticus.....we as sinful man have a hard time understanding the Holiness of God the Creator of All. The Book of Leviticus (authored mostly by God himself), points out every single one of our flaws, unrighteousness, uncleanliness, etc. I admit, its a hard pill to swallow, but that is because of our prideful and sinful nature. The Book of Leviticus is intended to show us our short comings compared to God rather than make us squirm. This is why we need a Savior.

Most of us 'think' we are doing good if we follow the 10 Commandments, but Jesus raised the bar exponentially when He delivered the Sermon on the Mount. Every single one of us cannot stand in the presence of the Lord. This predicament is the heart of question you are asking Grandpa Trapper..... How can a Just and Holy God reconcile sinful man? This is the question of all eternity.

He can do it, because He sent His one and only Son, a piece of Himself to cover our sins for us, if we only accept it. God's salvation is a gift, and like any gift, one does not have to accept it.

Jesus Christ is the skin that we as sinners today put on to cover us. In Genesis, after the original sin, God made clothes from animal skins in order to cover Adam and Eve. There had not been death in Eden until that point as for as I'm aware. He (YHVH) was teaching them a very important lesson. That lesson is that only by the shedding of innocent blood will they be covered.

Today, we are covered by that same commitment and covenant through our Lord Jesus Christ (The only perfect MAN without SIN to walk the face of the earth). We are saved through the Blood of the Lamb.

I wish you peace and happiness Grandpa Trapper. Chancey
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by James
Jesus never visited my Japanese in-laws. They never heard the Word.

My mother-in-law lived her entire life without ever a chance to be "saved," as Christians would call it. She was born and married to Shinto ceremonies, and buried according to Buddhist ones. (A curious Japanese custom.)

Jim


Well, if one says they missed the boat, then maybe if the calendar changes and we have no news of it until 3 months later and I had bills to pay at the first of the year I guess I might get forclosed on and would be an April's fool. I think God is a just God and won't be playing any April fools jokes on people that don't have the information they need. If God is a just God he will judge us on what info. we've been given. In the case where they have never even heard the gospel he will judge the person with what they do have which is : Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
They have that much and will be judged by that, and Jesus did die for the whole mankind, the payment was paid and just because the recipient didn't receive notice doesn't mean its void.

I don't see how anyone can say that man is so void of understanding and thus not capable to choose for himself who he and his family will follow, and therefore they are predestined to election of salvation by God and are in an elite group of once in Grace always in Grace. I don't believe that way but if I did, I would not be so arrogant to believe that someone else who has lived a good life but hadn't received the news their bill had been paid, would fry.
Posted By: James

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 06:44 AM

Good answer, Foxpaw.

I have trouble with the idea that anyone deserves to fry for eternity, but at least in my case I was put on notice. Not so for my in-laws.

Jim
Posted By: tjm

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 07:22 AM

Protestants as group say there five "only" ways to get there and each of those "only" ways by virtue of being an "only" excludes all the other ways.

I don't find the Gospel flawed but modern interpretation defies basic logic.
One. One God, one gospel, one interpretation, one Church, one denomination. All who think there can be many denominations based on many interpretations are saying that neither they nor the other denominations really believe the Scripture.

How much of what is commonly recognized as "Christian" doctrine is taken from Jesus' own words and teaching and how much people telling other people what they think Jesus meant to say?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Can an Atheist or Agnostic go to Heaven - 02/16/20 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by tjm


How much of what is commonly recognized as "Christian" doctrine is taken from Jesus' own words and teaching and how much people telling other people what they think Jesus meant to say?



To you, the wise man. May your tribe increase.

One particular text seems pretty straight forward from a man who was personally witness to the power of God: Saul, a Roman Jew, renowned for his ability to track down and kill early believers of "The Way," as it was known, but who himself was transformed by miracle, design, and grace on the road to Damascus - into the Apostle Paul who wrote, with the Inspiration of the Spirit, much of our New Testament text.
He would routinely suffer terribly at the hands of non-believers of that 1st century, and die a gruesome death for his faith.

In Paul's letter to the church in Ephesus;
Ephesians 1:13

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

The best promise ever made available.
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