Eagles and Lead

Saw on the news in Carolina, eagles found with lead poison. Officials cite deer hunters as the cause.

Really?

How many bullets would an eagle have to digest?

Does lead frag on impact?

Just curious how legit the claim is.

Just another way to try and outlaw hunting.

Maybe a way to eliminate affordable ammunition, not many lead smelters left either.

If lead were that bad, we would all have been dead a long time ago.

I thought cali was lead free for hunting already

California is brain free

Article says that the big box stores need to start carrying only copper or non lead shells only... always another lib to deal with.

I would imagine if they are eating a lot of "not followed up on" deer it could be a problem.

From what I remember in college it's pretty bird dependent on how much is needed to kill one. Some could eat one lead bullet and die. Others could dang near eat a whole lead battery and be fine.

We went to a bird sanctuary once that had a couple BOP's that had lead poisoning. Most of them had some sort of neurological condition. There was one there to look at it you wouldn't think there was anything really wrong with it. It would fly around. Fight. Everything a normal bird would do.....Right up until feeding time. It just couldn't feed itself. They had to force feed it this mush type of stuff like you would a baby bird.

i bet lead kills a bunch but theres always a big hole too.

World has plenty of owls, eagles , hawks and falcons. Eagles are good scavengers. Especially this time of year when there are no turkey buzzards. Owls hawks and falcon numbers need reduced about 90%. Eagles could be cut in half and there would still be plenty. These communists get on tv flapping their lips to make lies and somehow people believe it.

So what. Eagles are not threatened.

Just more anti propaganda.

The US has given eagles a very special immunity and a direct attachment to the heartstrings of our residents. I’m not saying they should be eradicated and that they didn’t deserve protection at times, but the overprotection is ridiculous. The way the average is citizen views an Eagle is that they do have rights. No wonder our country is losing touch with reality. I know many die hard sportsman that view eagles as “untouchable” not because of the laws but because they truly have been indoctrinated to believe these animals are more special and important than other wildlife.... JMO eagles, hawks, owls, are an important part of wildlife and play an important role. They should be managed not given immunity. Most of these birds of prey are in such abundance now they have made pests of themselves. And are having negative impacts on other forms of wildlife.

THIS

I love all birds of prey I remember back in the early 70s my parents taking us way back in the north woods just on the chance to maybe see an eagle and a few years later a report on the news that MN had 8 active eagle nests and all the excitement about it

Well last year I topped that because I know where there are 27 just along the couple different routes I drive back and forth to work, I have no real idea how many other bird of prey nest I know of

Like Zac states about they do need to be managed but unfortunately the majority of uninformed people basing their decisions only on emotion prevents any such changes

We have to use Copper, carry out the guts, or bury the gut pile here in Northern Az. The California Condors can’t handle the lead fragments either.

If your using copper why don't they want them eating gut piles?

Scientists have known for decades that Lead can be a boogie man and poison things.. I read some of the old stories about gasoline industry and lead and it is really something..
My sister is very much up to speed on birds of prey. Is kind of her thing to photograph them much like Johnathan did with water fowl.. Any way her and I have had this eagle's eating lead bullet discussion more than couple times. I have no reason to question that some eagles are indeed being poisoned by lead. I do question how many really are and where they are picking up the lead? There was no doubt that DDT was a big culprit in the decline of many birds in the 60s-70s.. We always had eagles here along the Mississippi far back as I can recall.. We now have eagles literally in the hundreds at ice out as they migrate back north.
I kind of think this eagles eating lead is the now become the new... "If it saves one child" battle cry against lead.. I personally find it hard to believe there are that many deer laying around with lead in them. Then that one eagle has to pick up that one bullet or piece of it. Then some one has to see and capture that one sick eagle and bring it in.. Awful lot of things got to happen to get that one lead bullet into that one eagle..
Not saying eagles don't get poisoned by lead.. I believe my sister and she say is real deal. I really do question though where they are picking it up. Here along the river is probably a better chance they'd pick up a split shot while picking their grit???? They must pick grit like any bird?? don't they? Of course we all know lead sinker are whipping out the Loons too?? Right? We have been shooting steel shot here on river since I think late 70 early 80s..
I just don't get it how them birds can find that one little lead bullet in great big world..With as many eagles as there are here now if the lead was such a big problem. There would be all kinds of birds flopping around all over the place..oh yeah and deer season is just November, December thing here..


Mac

pcr2:

Tell my WHY would anyone want to kill an Eagle?

I believe would be mostly ignorance.. Same as people think they can save every bird.

Mac

Ask a sheep Rancher in SD.

Copper is one of the options. AZ game and fish actually gives you a box of factory or you can get just the bullets and reload

I seen a hawk fly off a high dollar bobcat I had snared. Was a giant mess stead of valuable fur. Bald eagles will clean up a pile of coyote carcasses pretty quick. Same for a beaver lying half in half out the water in your conibear. If you really want to know why people shoot eagles talk to sheepherders. They dont always ignore a newborn calf either.

BTW you guys that turkey hunt just be glad they are not our national bird. It was close and people would worship them instead of eagles.

Eating that beautiful fisher that you finally trapped and had to wait who knows how long for a tag

Canucks have no problem trapping their national animal. I dont see how a turkey would be much different...Heck...it might have been better since there would've been earlier habitat protection and turkey hunting would be a national past time

HP:

It is VERY real. First I have taken 4 eagle into be rehab. I am a falconer in Mi. so I get call several time a year about raptors. You have to remember Eagles are scavengers. It is had to believe but a any bird of pray can die from lead the size of a BB. Yes a BB. An small example, someone goes out hunting sqr. and uses a 410 shoot gun. Shoots at a sqr. and does not kill the sqr makes it to a hole. The sqr. how has lead in its body. He leaves the hole and dies, the eagle eats the sqr. and now he has lead poisoning. Ever loose a lead jig fishing? Eagle eat fish. There are several ways to get ingested.
So you don't believe it, google it. Why did they band lead in paint? It may have been a deer issue because the bullet was still in tact and the Eagle got a large chunk of meat off the deer that had the bullet would have been my guess. Yes lead can kill Eagles.

I had an eagle swoop out of the fog at grab a big green head Mallard I'd just shot.. Dog hadn't even gotten in the water to get the duck and eagle was carting it off..Sat up in tree across the channel where I could watch him eat it. Lost more than one muskrat to hawks and eagles too. Pretty sure lost a small coon too. See eagles here sitting on road killed deer all time. Some years back lady lives a mile over let her little dog out in dark to do it's business. Watched in horror as got carried away by an owl.
So them things happen..

Mac

there are plenty of eagles in the world. i dont want to quit using lead cause 4-5 out of every thousand die from ingesting it. HOWEVER, i have been a truck driver most of my adult life. I will get behind an initiative to ban trains as they kill several every year too.

Here in the Susquehanna and Juniata rivers we used to have muskrat houses on darn near every grass patch and island in the rivers, then along comes the plan to build White Headed Buzzard hacking towers!! No more muskrats!!! Where did they go?

Don't forget the Windmills!!!

Float the Bighhorn river here in Montana during waterfowl season it you want to see a bunch of bald and golden eagles are just waiting for a duck or goose and I'm sure a dead fish to float downstream .
Granted it's been awhile since I've hunted down there but geese still showed up with lead pellets in them because I was shooting Kent fast steel .

There's been more than a few tribal members who have been caught with shot eagles in their possession and have gone to a federal prison for it , instead of going through the proper channel's to obtain feathers and parts for their ceremonial garb.

Tell me why, as a trapper and conservationist, you believe in giving total protection to any animal? That is no different than the antis and their wolf propaganda. That is where this country drops the ball, they decide a few species are "special" or too pretty to die! Everything in this world dies.....sooner or later, and one species is no more special than any other.

Lead poisoning will help keep the population in check, I'm all for it.

I didnt know the Natives had regulations... wow

C-a-r-o-l-i-n-a. lol

Read these:

http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/whyUseNonlead2015.html

http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/bullet_performance2015.html

http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/lead_in_meat2015.html

Getting to be too many IMO. Like anything else, soon time to control them.

Crazy the Turkey all most became our national bird because of Ben Franklin. Im thinking it would take a bunch of ingested lead to kill an eagle or duck. They outlawed lead for waterfowl hunting and Im not thinking we have more ducks. I read not long ago the Fish and Wildlife gave the wind generators a big Im talking thousand plus incidental kill on eagles for wind generators in Wyoming and thats ok!

What I have read was the reason they outlawed lead shot for waterfowl was not because the adult eagle getting lead poison, but the eggs from eagles that ingested lead having too thin of shells and eagles were not able to reproduce because all of their eggs would crack prematurely. Of course, this could be another head fake by the antis trying to outlaw lead shot/sinkers.

No regulation of any critter equals a anti agenda, you can bank on it. Pattern.....

I think that lead poisoning is still the leading cause of death in the CA. Condors.

the leading cause of death is old age

yep

Don't really want to kill them but I have to scare them off from time to time trying to kill my chickens they grt right down in the pen and kind of hover trying to grab them

They call it Acceptable loss

The numbers are not really known. Only the ones that are found are taken in for rehab. A lot of them do not make it. I know a guy that is not a trapper kill every otter he spots in the river because he feel they eat to many fish.

Must have been a REAL big Hawk. Most hawks can not pick up a normal size cottontail rabbit.

We need Regular skinny white guy Eagle regs

The White Headed Vulture (Buzzard) is a Vulture they have NO power in there feet so they only eat carrion ( dead meat). How is the mink, bob cat population?

do you need reading lessons getting there? dont disparage me in such a fashion. especially hiding behind an alias

You maybe thing of DDT.

Danny Clifton: Sorry if your are offended, but I hide behind nothing. I flew many hawks over the years and I know what they are capable of doing and not doing.

I think one of the reasons that raptor are protected is because there reproduction rate is so low. In most cases a Eagle will product three chick, in most but not all cases only two will make it out of the next. One of the two chicks will not make it until the next spring. In most cases but not all an eagle will only have one clutch a year. This changes in number with different raptors. JMO

been living in Southern WI for 41 years in that time we went from never seeing a bald eagle to having it be a normal thing to see . you used to have to go way up north to see a bald eagle now a trip to the next town to go grocery shopping you might easily see one.

I also don't buy that it is deer hunters causing the majority of the issue , but because they wear orange and have a short season and are highly visible deer hunters bear the blame,

never mind late season pheasant is happening when they are finding these eagles , never mind shot amounts to a lot more volume and weight than the fragments from bullets in deer that typically exit with a high percentage of retained weight.

What are you talking about? Who are you? Can you not read? What part of a hawk flying off a dead cat IN A SNARE makes you think I claimed it was being carried. Who are you? I will tell you this I dont like being called a liar

Collateral damage.

There is more birds killed by the wind turbines then they are for what the OP is about. also there is more eagles around me then there was when I first move in that I bought some years ago. They are just full of it .

yep

coydog2: I have to agree about the wind turbines, and it will continue. But it is just like the lead issue, some do not believe it is happening.

Well danny, this subject is closed on this site. If you want to know who I am, etc. you can send a PM or give me your phone number and I will call you on my dime.

Getting there you need to go back and reread Danny Clifton’s original post. It has not been edited and clearly says “flying off a cat” not flying off with a cat.

This takes strength in the feet.



I don’t know how many survive “the hatch” here but I watched an adult standing in a field watching 4 juveniles (no white yet) taking turns munching on a road kill deer about two weeks ago.

my phone number is listed. im not hiding. not behind a fake name or an unlisted number

I know people like that also

Low thats why I trap in other states.

Don't eat them and the lead won't hurt you. Bahaha.

[url=https:

Eagle on my carcass pile at my house. A few .22 slugs in the pile, for sure. I never considered it would be a problem.

I guess you could send them all to a landfill....but my garbage man ain’t gonna like it.

Banning lead to save eagles is a solution looking for a problem. More and more eagles are dying from lead poisoning because there are more eagles and eagles have to dye sometime somehow. The fact that the eagle population has continued to grow is an indication that lead poisoning is not a significant problem. A lot more eagles are killed by cars now than we killed back in the 1960's because there are a lot more eagles now. Unless eagle numbers were declining, and they are not, these sources of mortality are simply compensatory, nothing to be concerned about.

"There was no doubt that DDT was a big culprit in the decline of many birds in the 60s-70s"
Really? I suppose in certain circles there is "no doubt".
I am not in that circle, as I have challenged anyone who espouses this notion to provide unbiased scientific proof that this is factual. I have yet to have anyone provide it.

If I remember, a while back there was info posted. Did you post anything saying hoorah for your circle? I don't remember, it's been a bit. My thing is when any apex predator is permitted to go unchecked and takes food from my table, well, I think it BS.

When I was a kid shooting hawks owls and eagles was a good thing. It was a pretty common idea of conservation to kill predators. The boy scout handbook had a drawing of a kid shooting a bobcat in it. There was a lot more small game too. A lot more.

Here in KS deer were scarce. They all got ate in the depression years. At least the ones that didn't die drought related deaths.

The fact remains nobody really knows if DDT effects bird eggs. It effects insect populations though. Just like pesticide used today. You know the pricey stuff that replaced DDT. No bugs means a lot of ground nesting birds don't eat much. Used to be real common to see scissortails , whippoorwills , prairie chickens , bob white quail and meadowlarks here in my part of KS. Over the course of the 40 years I have lived here I estimate the populations have dropped 80-90%. Rabbits and muskrats the same thing.

Hawks owls and eagles are everywhere. Time to start killing them again.

red tails are the worst here.

eagles here are unreal. Almost anyday I can look out my windows and see 4 sitting in a bald tree ,,,red tails next. Im with Danny.

Probably no changes in habitat or farming practices over those 40 years?

Just an observation from the lands I tread on. It seems the Red Tail hawks have been in decline around here. A hawk was a very common site on any given farm. There are certain trees preferred on each place that would have a hawk perched in them each morning. In the past 3-4 years they have been nearly absent. No longer do I see 4-5 at a time soaring above the chicken pens. Not sure where they went or why the decline but, am convinced there are less now at least in this area.

Eagle sightings have sky rocketed. 5 at a time soaring over my place were seen. Eagles eat hawks?

i never saw a eagle eat a hawk but i never saw an animal they would not eat either

As Clark points out there have been changes in habitat (and prey abundance) as well. Predator populations can only increase so long before there is an inevitable crash. As small game has declined from unchecked predation and habitat loss, eventually the predators that depend on that prey base (hawks) will decline as well.
Eagles are probably doing well since deer populations make roadkill quite abundant.

hawks eat roadkill too

When they have to they will, but I believe they are less prone to scavaging than eagles.

Anyway, if or when the protectionists succeed at banning lead it will be interesting to see what the next major cause of eagle mortality will be. Watching the protectionists try to eliminate all sources of mortality in an ever expanding population is like watching someone play whack-a-mole.

Folks no matter how you slice it, this is an end around to hurt, regulate, ban hunting.

https://junkscience.com/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/


Here is some interesting information.

YES!! And so is not managing apex predators!

I guess the same thing could be said for hand guns, they are helping with population control, so why ban them. LOL

I have been banding Hawks at Whitefish Point for almost 50 years in the Spring. You can go up on the dunes and find old shot gun shells but only the metal end. People use to go up and shoot the hawk. I have been to Dodge City several time also Liberal, Garden City, Great Bend to hunt with my birds.
One thing I notice in the place in KS I have been in, not a lot of trees. We always found rabbits and Jacks. May not have been in the number you remember but a lot more than I have in my area. While in Great Bend I did not see an ungodly number of birds, but again you can see for miles.

With the ban of DDT came the decline of the thin eggshells. Any landscape can only support so much game when the load gets to great the numbers will drop. JMO

DDT and PCB's are very definitely proven reproductive inhibitor's. Most heavy metals are toxic. Lead Paints took a heavy toll on children that ingested it.Eagles are not the only thing adversely affected; loons are another example.. The lead in pewter cups proved to be fatal..We need to stop pulling the wool over our eyes, I'm not some idiot liberal. The problem is very real and needs to be addressed.
As for birds of prey being federally protected, I'm not so sure about that, they take a heavy toll on small game, birds, mink, muskrats, etc.

The enclosed article is from The Minnesota Volunteer, September 2013. The Volunteer is a Minnesota DNR publication.
Lots of photos, lots of sound facts. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mcvmagazine/issues/2013/sep-oct/copper.html

I use Barnes 80 grain TTSX bullets in my .243. I figure it costs me about 75 cents to kill a deer with these superior copper
Bullets. 75 cents doesn't seem like a lot of money to me.

Lead is everywhere in the US environment. I suspect almost none of the lead found in eagles came from lead bullets. Lead in eagles is probably mostly from fish they consume. The fish eagles prefer to eat, like salmon and carp all store lead in their fat. Alaska, Idaho, Montana, and Washington have the most naturally ocurring lead in the US and most of the salmon too. The water in those states has high amounts of dissolved lead in many of the streams salmon are in. Retention ponds, where carp are common, have huge amounts of lead dust that washed there from automobiles.

Missouri is another state with high levels of lead. Eagles eat the ducks that pick up the lead from the water, when they travel through that flyway.

Keith

The 120 eagles which show up every fall at the Raptor Rehabilitation center in Roseville, Minnesota, are there because
They've eaten from lost deer and more importantly deer gut piles. Please read article.

i dont really care if a few die. there are plenty of them and the population is growing. its time to start culling a few more anyway

They're a nuisance in some areas. There is an active nest at a nearby boat launch and county fairgrounds. A couple events needed to be rescheduled or moved or adjusted so as to not interfere with the nest.

Is Eagle salami better than Loon?

Not as much meat, but I think it makes good jerky

Hmm...never would have thought of that

The eggs are good.... “poached”

It's closer to California Condor, with just a hint of Spotted Owl.

Keith

Geez!!!

I need a pen and a recipe card ....

Spotted owl sounds delish!

Talk about want to cut some number down, lets open a no season no limit on White Tail Deer. Outside of a food source they are worthless. 50,000 car deer accidents in Mi. in 2019. 17 death, crop damage in the Millions, damage to flower, trees and scrubs who knows. Lost two friends that hit a deer with a motorcycle. I think Mi. is #5 on the list. JMO

Terrific idea IMO, so is thinning down raptors.

If all the deer died tonight I wouldn't miss them. They have raised the price of tags so high here its not really much of a money saver anymore to eat them.

never ever ever ever had bald eagles here until a few years ago...…….thought it was pretty cool to see one when they first showed up...not so much now. they are not our national symbol...wish we could kill them.

I agree that the numbers of deer need thinned also, they do a lot of property damage. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if both deer and BOP became a rare sight again.

I have a book "Life Histories of North American Birds of Prey", In the old day, they shot hawks to see what they eat. But everyone has there own opinion on what they eat do it is not worth looking up there diet. They eat lots of small item. You can google it I would think.

Deer are money makers for most state agencies. Birds of prey, not so much. Bird watchers don't bring in much revenue.

When my Dad was a kid growing up during the Great Depression, they shot hawks and owls because they were killing and eating their free grazing chickens.

The article was written to imply that eagles are somehow in danger since 120 showed up with lead poisoning. To put that number in perspective you need to know total population size and total annual mortality from all causes. The reality is the eagle population is healthy and thriving. Any increase in mortalit from lead poisoning is relative to the increase in total population size. Nothing to be alarmed about.

To get all warm and fuzzy for minute, I would be crushed if all the deer died, or all the eagles, or all of anything. I loves huntin, trappin, and fishing...aw shucks, I love nature. The thought of there being less of it is depressing.

Don't worry, eagles are doing fine, but if it makes you feel more warm and fuzzy you can write out a big check to the Raptor Rehabilitation center in Roseville, Minnesota!

He was just being real Walley...

Totally agree...

I think that is how they got there name "chicken Hawks" at that time they were not protected.

Deer hunting is a big money maker for the State. There is no money in BOP. Bird watching is a different story, the money that comes from, bird feed, bird houses and other items related to bird is great. I buy 150 lbs of black oil seeds, 150 lbs of corn, 50 lbs of junk seed, 25 suit blocks a winter. That add up to the economy. JMO

Googled Parker Guns, they were the gun in there day. A very collectable gun even today.

Cool old ad Tomahawker ^^^

Parker’s along with Winchester model 21’s are the most sought after collectible American shotguns. And for a good reason, they’re well made, and darn near hand made. Fox, Lefever, LC Smith are also in the top. That advert was made by William Harnden Foster.

http://www.startribune.com/money-to-prevent-lead-poisoning-of-loons-released-to-mpca/568022312/

It's all about the money.......

I thought USDA wildlife services had been killing loons and cormorants for a couple decades to keep populations controlled?

Cormorants yes, but loons no, at least in MN. Loons in MN are on a rung just a bit higher than the eagle. They are thick as flies and in no trouble at all but there was all kinds of money to "protect and restore" them recently from the deep water Horizon oil spill in the gulf. You know, the one that was going to silence the loons.

I live with in 100 yds of a lake that connects to Lake Michigan, and there is a road that runs the full length of the lake. Lots of ducks, geese, swans. But I am lucky if I see 4 loons in the spring and 2 in the fall. Mi. is like MN, we have lots of water. I would say there are rare in Mi. You would have to really look hard to find 2 loons 2 days in a row in my area.

The eagles ate'em lol

Looks about right based on this map.

Yes, My description of loons being thick as flies was a bit of an exageration, and not really possible since loon pairs are very territorial. In fact, a fair amount of loon mortality comes from fighting to protect breeding territory. You only see them in larger groups as they stage for migration. Relatively speaking the population is high since there are about as many loons as the habititat will support across the breeding range.

Bingo

I don't necessarily disagree that switching to all copper in rifle bullets is a good idea to keep from killing eagles if you choose to, but being forced to is what is wrong with it.

Give them an inch, they will take a mile. If they succeed to ban lead for one thing, they will use it as a prop to ban it for lots of other things.

Fishing jigs and sinkers would be next. And what one earth am I supposed to shoot out of a traditional muzzleloader? Copper balls?

I don't think everything in this world is a conspiracy to take away guns and bullets..You know there are people out there as passionate about the outdoors and wild life as many here are. They just don't feel the need to hunt or shoot and probably really don't give a rip if you do.. I know this because my sister is one of these people, shoots but don't hunt..I also have other relatives that are the same way..But they do ask about our lead, or none BMP traps. Heck even ask about the the plastic shell casing and wads laying all over the river here.. How any good sportsman leave them laying around???
There are birds being poised by lead and maybe not in great numbers. Yes there are more birds than 30 years ago..I can look out my window and know that.
Not all science in this world is junk science the data is out there on lots of topics. I don't have to go look for it and post it here so you have your fact that you need..Not my job as they might say..
We as people of the outdoors, people who use the out doors.. shouldn't we be looking to help all wild life when and where we can.. So if there is an alternative to lead bullets, much like the steel shot was to water fowling. Why not look into that??
I'm not saying just stop, take everything away,,cold turkey.. I like my fishing jigs I make myself.. You give me something better I can do myself I'm there..
I may or may not see it in my life time?? These changes I know I've seen a lot of changes...For sure not buying into the every thing BIG Conspiracy Thing..
I do think a lot of people could back off on their narrow minded thinking. All or nothing, extremist, I got mine, it's the best way, thinking..World be a better place for everyone.
Rant Over
Let the name calling begin:

Mac

The quintessential reason as to why the left is succeeding imo.

Is it extremist to point out that the sky is not falling when a few birds die from lead poisoning, even though their populations are stable or expanding? Or, to suggest that mortality in any wildlife population is normal and sustainable?

Yesterday on the way home I seen a im Eagle on the ice. Today I see the Eagle is dead on the ice and the sea gulls are feeding on it.

Drive by again tomorrow and see if all the seagulls are dead too.

Nope no I don't think so and can agree with that. I've said it in past post. I know there are more birds need only look out window..grew up watching it all..
That is no more extremist thinking than the people trying to save that one bird that is sick..My point is that somewhere in all this is middle ground..Talk respectfully with each other..Everyone comes at so many of these issues, like you stated as "The sky is always falling." Some one is taking this from me..Toe in the door and all is lost..
These younger folks that get so worked up. They don't know the past only what they see now.. If we can't educate them, work with them to understand their concerns. Show them that yes some things are a problem an it's been worked on now for years. Here is where we came from and are passing that work on to you to move forward..
But the Sky is not falling..


Mac

Thank you Mother Nature, at least someone is managing them.

The middle ground as I see it is to allow some controlled killing of raptors. Eagle feathers and claws could be marketed easily if it were made legal. I dont want to see them disappear but 6-8 raptors per square mile is just to many. Only a few extremists have a problem with controlling coon fox and coyote populations. Should be no different with eagles hawks and owls. 99.9 % of lost fishing sinkers are in deep enough water no bird will ingest one. How many deer are unrecovered in deer rifle season? Some, yes, but not hoards of them. Else you would be tripping over antlered skulls everytime you were in deer habitat.

FWIW I have started shooting those TSX bullets too. Very accurate and weight retention is close to 100%. Has nothing to do with lead. I like blackpowder shooting too. Along with my 22's. I just dont see lead bullets being a big problem.

Danny is right, logically the middle ground would be some controlled management of any species. Total protection or killing to extinction are the extreme positions. No one is suggesting killing to extinction, but there are plenty of people advocating for and insisting on total protection. Treating every case of incidental mortality as something that needs to be eliminated only plays into this extreme position.

It is ridiculous that we are even having an advisory group discussion in MN to determine if a fully recovered wolf population should be sustainably managed with controlled hunting and trapping.

Very well said! I sure don't want to see any critter get gone gone but they like everything else need managed. I too believe when there isn't management of apex predators there is a agenda there too. I'm not saying entirely, because you have the wolfs, eagles etc, are so cute people, but more predators mean less prey, critters we hunt. Hunters in a lot of States have gotten tired of going out on public land and not seeing game anymore, some give up and quit buying hunting license. Imo, this is a tool being used.

We have to remember not all State have those high number of Raptors. But I do realizes that the Western States has a much better chance at seeing the Raptors than in Michigan. I was in Great Bend in Nov. and drove a lot of back roads. Also drove up from Wichita I see hawk. But I did not keep track of how many. There was no shortage of game, but I do not know how it was back in the day.

Lead comes from the soil. We drill through it to get water. Does that water have lead in it?

I have had an eagles nest by my house for the 12 years I have lived there. They set in it all year. They eat the coon carcasses I leave out. There are now 6 instead of just 2. I'm sure these will die of old age here.

I know there is a trapping season, BUT is there a limit on the number of rats, coon, fox, and other animals that can trapped in your State? In MI. there is a limit on Otter and Cats.

MI has a lot of regulations that make sense at all

Any city/village/ or township that sell water to there residents have to do a water quality report once a year. One requirement is a lead and copper test.
Most lead that if found in drinking water comes from lead water service lines. Lead Goose necks, and leaded water main joints. Non used in many years.

Remember I saw a Eagle on the ice the other day, the next day the sea gull were eating the eagle, yesterday an eagle was eating the dead eagle and today the sea gull were eating on the eagle again. By tomorrow there will not be anything left to eat.

Most of the time the bullets go right thru the deer.