Pastor arrested for holding church

A pastor in Florida was arrested for holding church services. Is this America or China? Next they'll be lightinghis house on fire and he'll "disappear".

Florida megachurch pastor arrested for holding crowded services Sunday

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pastor-arrest-church-service-coronavirus-tampa

I see a church held service in the parking lot over there radios. A lot smarter move. Risking the life of other at this point is not a good move. IMO

so much for the first amendment

what happened to the old adage about surrendering your rights in the name of security? i hope they keep holding services. whoever issued the royal proclamation needs kicked out of office

what happens when they decide that speech against whoever is in office is to dangerous to allow or a news story is too controversial? this is very bad people

Serious question.

If it was something more serious, like bubonic plague, would you feel the same way?

what kind of a man takes an oath to uphold the constitution then arrests a preacher for holding a church service. i would post the word im thinking of but its not child friendly

How much more serious does this have to get?,,,

amspoker nobody is being stopped from isolating theirself at home.

bubonic plague is treatable now. put on your big boy pants and take care of your family the way you think is best. quit expecting other people to do it for you

i am not surrendering my constitutionally recognized rights

If citizens are dumb enough to attend mass meetings they should be allowed regardless of how stupid they are. This reminds me “the gouvernment can’t tell me to wear a seat belt”
Sorry guys some people can’t take care of themselves. Take your shots. This old guy isn’t going anywhere.

So it begins...

Many Christians, myself included, believe that regularly gathering in person with other believers is an essential part of their religion, that it's just as much a basic part of practicing their religion as praying or reading from a Bible. If some Christians choose to get their teaching in other ways, that's fine, that's up to them. But to create a "law" (not really a law, just a royal decree) tellling them they can't meet in person with other believers is akin to telling them they can't pray or can't own a Bible. You may have other beliefs, and that's okay, it's not the point. The point is that people are being arrested for what they feel is an essential part of their religion.

Unlike you, I actually believe the precautions are justified. So it isn't about surrendering rights for me. It's about slowing the virus.

From your point of view, thinking it's overblown, you are right.

As far as church goes, the bible teaches about quarantine, and obeying government authorities... within reason...

Government knows best for it's sheep herd

Comply or die is not off the table

Its that sense of entitlement popping its ugly head up again.
"I can do anything because I'm entitled to do it-to with everybody else or the consequences".
They need to lock that idiot up.

If it was just the pastor's flock that could potentially die I guess I wouldn't care. But what is criminal is that there are innocents that would suffer the consequences as well.

Innocents? Why are the innocents not isolating themselves? If they stay home and practice social distancing how are any "innocents" (whatever that means) going to be affected????????????

By this reasoning , someone with the flu ( with alarming death rates ) walks into a church should be executed

Eventually most of us have to go out and get groceries. Can't isolate ourselves 100% from the foolishness of others.

400 million test kits available soon, get a test and a chip if your kung flu free....the chip will automatically detect kung flu and notify the proper authorities. If your positive.....off to the kung flu camp for a while.....kinda like summer camp, only with armed guards with a shoot to kill line drawn on the ground.

Danny: people still have to go out for groceries and medical treatment. Why should they be endangered because of someone else's religion?

Jim

Only in your mind.

Jim

Not far fetched at all......

Psalms 115.17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

You don't have to be among a thousand people to worship. Didn't He say that where 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name He would be in the midst ?

Where you been Jimmy ? Thought the coronavirus got you

They send people home every day with coronavirus . Those people have family members who go to stores and move about town.

Seems More reckless than a church service

If they were just clamping down on religious services I would be worried. The case now though is they are cracking down on everyone. I there was a Joe Biden rally and they turned a blind eye to that, yet stopped a church service, then we would have a constitutional issue.

Regardless of the law this preacher is showing blatant disregard for the health of his church members, possibly for a boost to his proud ego.

Our church last Sunday held our service over Zoom Meeting an internet App. It was great, that was a surprise to me since I'm not a big tech fan

way to late if you want to worry about your constitutional right. Never look at the RED FLAG LAW that will be coming to your State sooner or later.

There is a high possibility of quite a few changes happening in the USA this year.......

They should look him up and through away the key.

To each his own, I am glad he is not my shepherd

Bryce

Well said.

He' probably one of those wingnut fake preachers that play with snakes.

I believe precautions are justified. I believe this church should not have met. But I also believe that when the government, by the proclamation of one government official, can arrest a pastor for holding a church service, we are right around the corner from me being arrested for speaking out against it.

Did you notice in the article that he was charged with "unlawful assembly". I thought the constitution had some mention of that. Next thing you know they'll be arresting people for unlawful possession of a firearm...oh, wait.

There is a fine line being towed here with this virus with the loss of rights! But its not the 1st time we have been asked as citizens to give up something for the greater good of the nation!

Here is one example:

"Lights can simply be turned off or light can sometimes be minimized by tarring the windows of large public structures. In World War II, a dark blackout curtain was used to keep the light inside. Tarring the windows can mean a semi-permanent blackout status.

During the 1940s and 1950s, cities such as Detroit would practise blackout air raid drills. During this time, the city's Civil Defense workers would immediately activate the neighborhood air raid siren and families would be required to do the following in order:

Shut off all appliances, such as stoves, ovens, furnaces
Shut off valves for water and natural gas or propane, as well as disconnect electricity
Close blackout curtains (plain black curtains that would block light from coming in or going out). This step was changed after the atomic age began: where white curtains were used to reflect the thermal flash of the bomb, black curtains were used in World War II to prevent any airborne enemies from seeing light from windows
Get to a public shelter, a fallout or bomb shelter, or the household basement, and stay there until the local police or block warden dismissed the blackout.[14][15]"

This topic of church service has hit close to home for me! I'm sure I have lost a couple friends during the last week or so when it comes to being a good citizen and obeying the request of social distancing. Haven't been to church in 3 weeks (haven't missed a service in ten years!).

You have to understand that I this case for once Christians aren't being attacked!!!! We are being asked to help slow the spread of this virus by adhering to the guidelines set forth by govt!!

It is my opinion that these "pastors" that refuse to cancel service are being inconsiderate, uncompassionate, distasteful, rebellious, and are a danger to others health!

Now I see why this virus is going to take so long to get under control, just read some of the above post. Do what you want but stay away from me. Lick all the door handles you want. Get together all you want, just watch the numbers go up in your area. I see they had the first baby die today. Sad.

They aren't attacking Christians this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are asking everyone to help America by staying home!

It's a war! And this is a modern day "blackout" order!!!!

It's one thing to be arrested for preaching The Word of God!

Whole other ball game if your arrested for putting people's lives in danger by holding a church service!

well said brian.

I can gather with others to work in a cabinet shop but can't gather to worship.This is what's fishy to me.
As far as the church, it's members attended services of their own free will. If an arrest was to be made, they should have all been arrested for breaking .govs mandate.
When a church makes the call, as my church has done, to not hold services that is perfectly fine and likely the smart thing to do. When .gov decides that you aren't allowed to meet and worship, that's tyranny.

Man alive!

I could probably drive through town and find a couple hundred people who have lost their jobs over this because their work was closed! And some bone head preacher wants to make a name for himself by being rebellious!?

X2

I have never met a dead person that has any 1st amendment rights, maybe some of you have, if so enlighten us.

Bryce

For those that believe 100% in your rights, strap on your favorite handgun and stroll on into a Federal courthouse...

What concerns me more is the Government having to TELL people to use common sense! And since people don’t they have to enforce it. What preacher in his right mind would tell folks to come on down and let’s all get sick. Guess it gives a new meaning to thinning the herd...or in this case “flock”.

They don't talk much, but they still vote.

The difference is you go to work with a few people, probably less than 10 or 20. Those "mega" churches gather hundreds or thousands of people all within less than arms reach in a room.

If it's that bad why are any of us working? Are we essential or just expendable?

Civilian = essential

Military = expendable

A lot rejoiced when some States stopped abortions because of the virus. Just like Brian said, they are not attacking Christians, they are stopping all non essential activities like sports for instance.

Try telling some cupcake in a factory making toilet paper they are expendable! Cupcake will flip you off and walk out!

Tell the infantryman he is expendable and he'll toss himself on a granade to save his brothers!

When the government tells you that you can only worship in certain ways, the government is telling you how to practice your religion, plain and simple. And that should be unacceptable to anyone here who claims to love freedom. Now, maybe if you wanted to sacrifice virgins, or rape 13 year olds, the government would have a legitimate interest in telling you that you can't practice religion as you are fit. But to tell me I can't gather with a few people and sit and talk and eat? No way. I will not comply.

We're all soldiers now fighting an invisible enemy it seems.
We plan on sun rise services on Easter at our church. Spread out across a field. That may change.

I just got done holding church in my house. 12 of us sat at a table and talked and ate. For now that's not recommended, bout still legal here. 40 miles away in the town I work, it's illegal. If I would have done what I did tonight 40 miles north of me, police could have came and knocked on my door and broke up our church service. In who's world is that acceptable, besides a tyrant?

Wouldn't they do the same if MLB started a game?

Only a wolf would ask his flock to endanger themselves to a known risk. Wonder if he sorts out the true believers by having them stick there tongue to a hot frying pan. They are only saints if it doesn't burn them. If a guy wants to handle snakes and he doesn't endanger others then thats his business. Or drink poison as long as he doesn't endanger others by passing the Kool Aid.

My son works for kabota. several hundred people gather every day. daughter works for horizon. same thing. lotsa of places around here where hundreds gather every day. fedx ups jett. thats ok.

you people watch to much tv. your being brainwashed

There's a difference between production and non production.

I agree.

Strange times we are in. We are trying to do our best.

Whats his name ?

Dunno

Liked it so I pinched it!

Maybe he doesnt buy the crisis bs


Something fishy with your reaction ...............different religous denomination than you ?

Seeing how we are on the subject of soldiers and how this compares to the world wars and how civilians gave up stuff to help win the war.

I have to say Trump took a page outta their play book!

By getting the general public involved and private sector of business!

Got everyone staying home to slow the virus and private companies pumping out PPE and other medical equipment like it was wwII etc...

He looked at this like a world war and went straight to a proven play book! I'm telling ya he did. Crazy smart like a fox!

This article helps illustrate the difference between a "cabinet shop" and a church gathering.
People generally sing at church, so really belt it out.
60 People attended a choir practice in Washington State and 45 end up with CV-19 at least one dead so far.
https://www.heraldnet.com/northwest/dozens-from-skagit-valley-chorale-have-covid-19-and-two-died/

I'd say he doesn't buy the Bible either!

God has set govt over us! And as long as your not being told to do something against God!? Your to obey!

Being asked not to hold a church service to help save lives is not unbiblical!

Did I read that right? You are supposed to obey the government unless God tells you not to?

i dont believe in god. i do believe in freedom. peaceable assembly does not threaten those who choose to isolate

Yes it does-it spreads the disease.

I had virtual church last Sunday via "Zoom Meeting", every household was connected via an internet zoom connection, it was great.
Many of the these folks come from a place where they have actually suffered true religious persecution, I haven't heard any of them complain that what we are doing now is in any way persecution. We're just wimps and want everything our way a lot of the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raDCEhCKa84

Wonder if he needs all those people to come to his mega church so they can put money in the plate when they pass it. Got to keep up with Jim and Tammy Fay. He may need a new caddy or A-C for his hounds dog house.

Nope

Reread it, think, then start another thread and I'll go there with ya.

I know the thinking part may be a problem. But try

Ive been wanting a solid debate.

Being asked is fine, I've got no problem with it. Being told I can't is a whole different ball game. I believe that meeting regularly with other believers in person on a regular basis is an integral part of my faith, no different than reading my Bible or praying. 40 miles away I could get arrested for it.

No need for the insult. Just asking if that is what you meant. You said no. Thanks.

You'd be singing a different tune if you were a member of his congregation .........

Who are these people that isolate? All of us have to go out for stuff some time. Those people go to church, go shopping, get gas and so on. They are helping in the spreading of the virus. I am all about freedom, right now I don't see an infringement, I see sacrifice for our fellowman.

If you are so stupid or reckless to risk your life on a false premise I guess you deserve your fate. However, that does not give you the right to put the lives of your family and friends in jeopardy.

Catch 22

Exactly, you got it right. It is the Christian thing to do to sacrifice something in order to serve others. Being selfish and saying "I'm going to do X because it is my right" is not being very Christ-like.

I wonder what some of you would do if the government said you can own guns, just not certain kinds, because they're too dangerous.....or you've gotta give up your guns, it's dangerous and puts other people at risk....you can talk the talk but would you walk the walk? When your rights are put on hold in the name of safety would you stand up and disobey, or shrug your shoulders go along?

What about dropping off groceries for a coronavirus patient? What about offering to hold narcotics anonymous in our basement (more than 10 people) because the church that holds it is closed and some of these guys (two of which are in our temporary home church) are on the brink of falling off the wagon? Would that be a good Christian sacrifice, or should those people just suffer so that I don't risk getting sick?

so its too dangerous for 3-400 people to gather at fedx?

Depends.

Do they have a pot luck afterwards?

This is just the beginning of this type of dissension/arguments......wait a month or two and see what it is like....

If a addict/drunk is about to use its probably best for their sponsor to meet/stay with them....but ultimately they have to want to do it for themselves/by themselves. Really no need to have 30 people @ a meeting, limit it to 8 or something reasonable where people can keep their distance.

BINGO !!!

The entire episode screams SELFISHNESS. Is that what Christianity is all about ?

Whether I own a particular gun or not is no threat to you unless I choose to use it against you. There are already other laws that cover that eventuality..............even if it is a gun approved by the government.

The two situations are not comparable at all.

Wonder why they dont just issue a royal decree that no one leaves their home, for any reason, for 1 month. Make it legal to shoot anybody you can see outside from your window Would get rid of a lot of homeless people. Virus would be gone after a month. If a month isnt long enough then make it two. Emergency services could deliver sterilized food and water while wearing bio hazard suits.

Goose, that's apples and oranges and different scenarios. Again, wouldn't they do the same if MLB started up a game? You can worship with your family. You can do outreach, pray over peoples homes, take groceries to someone in need, you can do a lot and it be pleasing to God without congregating in numbers. Your routine is shaken, not your freedom or your faith.

Maybe could have church at the FedX facility?

Fine by me.

When it is against the LAW to spread the gospel, to witness, to preach... to share the word then its wrong. The fact that we are STILL meeting through video and not in person is not against the gospel. Its for the common good of people. I am not going to unnecessary put my family at risk. Why? Because I LOVE them!

We dont have people shutting down FB because of a sermon.
We dont have police coming into houses and stealing bibles.
We dont have youtube channels of pastors and sermons being blocked.
We dont have churches, seminaries being burned because its the gospel.
We dont have christians being arrested for being a christian. (of course this is debatable in this thread) Im thinking of china, india, and korea where you DONT HAVE FREEDOM.)

That is an underground church.

You apparently weren't around during the Watts riots in 1965. That is exactly what happened. I recall seeing ..on TV....the national guard open up with an M60 on a car load of looters. That ended the riot immediately, after way too many days of tolerance.

Just saw on the news tonight where a choir practice was held in Washington on March 10th (before the shelter rule came into effect). Almost all of them ill with the virus now and two deaths. Just breathing and singing next to each other did it.

They don't sing at churches by any chance do they?

I think there must be a disconnect between what's "right" and a right. You have the God given right to assemble even if it might not be the right thing to do.

The church does have choirs

Agree with this statement.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should

Religion is not being singled out. I look at it like drunk driving. If the worshipers were just endangering themselves at their own risk then go for it. When their irresponsible actions endanger unknowing innocents in the community then there is a big problem. If they quarantine in the church for 14 days after the assembly service it would be okay with me but that would never happen. Seems like grandstanding by the pastor and not very Christianlike.

Can you yell fire in a crowded theater without repercussions?

Just because it's not a good idea doesn't mean the government should arrest you for it.

That exact situation exists right now in Brooklyn. Orthodox Jews continuing to meet at their synagogue have infected their entire community.

22, these people attended of their own free will knowing the possible consequences. It would be like the movie crowd knowing that someone was going to yell fire.

Lol

Go shoot a jukebox and see what happens!

Your rights end where the other man's nose begins!

Govt isn't telling you how or when to worship in the sense of our inalienable rights! Heck, they aren't even limiting the guidelines to churches!!!! They are telling everyone.

Most churches have a very high demographic of elderly folk! I'd suspect that will change real soon in churches like the one in question! The pastor is the head of the church. If anyone is to be arrested for civil disobedience? It should be him!

I was serious.

Out of respect for other people i choose not to gather in large crowds for the time being. Slowing down the spread of a virus that we don’t know much about and giving medical professionals some time to test some medications is a smart move in my opinion. It will also help to keep hospitals and the employees from being overwhelmed, It’s pretty bad when people can’t take a few weeks off of their normal routine to protect the safety of others.

My knee jerk opinion on these pastors is that they wanna make a name for themselves.

Because I don't see any logical reason why a pastor would put his church in harm's way needlessly! Just give it a couple weeks to at least see if it is what they say it is!

If it is!? Then you helped save lives!

If it ain't!? Then you tried to help save lives!

If it is as bad as what they say? This guy will get people killed!

"All things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous. "....


On the other hand, online meetings ARE the same as personal assemblies. To be reasonable . To be otherwise is to stumble others in fanatical unreasonableness.

The pastor was arrested for violating the law. No one was arrested for how they worship, what they worship, who they worship, what they read or think. No one is persecuting Christians with these restrictions ( There may be OTHER efforts in the political realm directed at Christians but this isn't it )

Contrary to what you have posted this "pastor" has violated the law. LAW made and passed by Congress, signed by a President and adjudicated by SCOTUS.

You are usually a lot more cogent in your arguments Goose. You are letting your religion overrule your logic.

That is neither good for your religion nor society.

You can still meet with fellow believers........just not in the numbers or places you are used to.

If your Christianity doesn't care about the rest of society, then something is missing in your belief system.

The old man has some good stories of the watts riots ..........he went through several boxes of 00 buck shot

J, my point is rights are not absolute. The people attending these services are going out into the public as well, they aren't just risking themselves, they are putting others in danger as well. It's bad enough that we have to go out to get supplies once in a while, why add to the chances of getting infected and infecting others. The right to worship or assemble is not being infringed upon.

Im not concerned so much with the religeous aspect of it as much as i am over a law made over a fake crisis and then an arrest .........snowball fallout

As one chief justice once said...".The Constitution is not a suicide pact"

Matthew 6-5, may be worth a read for some of these Pastors.

Exactly. Many are holding online meetings and seeing the logic of showing love-doing to others as they would wish done to themselves....without a single thing missing from their intent or message. All in compliance with unselfishness to those whom they preach in showing example in action.

Shall not be infringed. Guess that's a farce.

At least it's for the good of society.

I don't know what law you are referring to that was ..."made over a fake crisis.."

Not only that

But also,. The "guidelines" will multiply, tighten, and become more severe if we don't get this virus under control. There was mention today of making is all wear mask while we're out in public! I can't stand wearing hard hats and safety glasses! And I don't like confined spaces! Face mask would kill me!

Stay home!

At least half our population is part of the "essential service" work force. So anytime you go to th store, or anywhere else, at least half the people there are out mingling with other workers every work day. Doubtful many of these people are practicing "social distancing" while at work.
Medics are leading this country down the road to DEPRESSION! Some doctor here in Alaska just released a "model" that says we may have to hunker for months to slow the spread. Months? Really? Wonder if his model is one of those garbage in, garbage out models. Does anyone else notice that all the folks calling for, and supporting more restrictions have GUARANTEED incomes? How guaranteed will that income be when no one, except govt. employees, has the money to pay taxes?
We have had "pandemics" before. Didn't have to destroy lives financially then. Supposedly some other countries aren't forcing hunker down orders and dealing with the medical aspect satisfactorily. Maybe we could too if we didn't have fear mongering.
For those who will respond that we are saving lives I ask, are we? Did you count the increase in suicides? Did you count the increase in drug abuse/deaths? Will domestic violence/ deaths increase?
Minuchin was on today saying they are preparing for round 2 of stimulus money. Hey, maybe I can retire, move to my wilderness trapline, and get stimulus money for the rest of my freaking life!!!
MT

You cant put money ahead of peoples lives.So what if you wind up poor and destitute,at least millions of lives will be saved.
Empires dont last forever-there is always a re-set.

Whats way worse is sending thousands of peolpe home with cv19 ........because of predetermined guidelines .

But hey we can arrest a pastor

Me 3

Me 4. Ever wonder what the difference is between a missionary and a mercenary ?

.......usa just hit the 3000 dead mark today, I hope none of those were from your church gathering.

I will point out that Boco is one of those with a guaranteed retirement income, right, Bo? We put money ahead of lives all the time.
mt

It seems that some still don't think this is even real. I wonder if it was just fake when they was staking up the dead bodies with a fork lift into the reefer. Looks like someone would double check they are not just faking us. What will it take to make some believe, maybe when they toss a loved one in the truck then it will sink home.

Doctors and nurses are just people and they can only handle so much, and unless we get a miracle they will wear out.

First time I saw some firefighters setting a back fire I thought they was just setting fires. Well this is turning out to be one big wildfire and I don't think there is any way to set a backfire, but I do believe any grand standing preachers need to suck on a pacifier for a while.

....... and we have a president that is bring back prayer and pledge of allegiance back into the schools

Isn't that norm ?

A bunch of people watching a sermon at the same time sitting here n their homes is NOT the same as meeting in person. If you watch a sermon in your home, that is NOT "going to church". The church is the group of people that go to the building and meet together. If you don't meet with the people, you don't meet with the church. If every member of T-man eats lunch at exactly 12:00 tomorrow, would we say we all ate lunch together? Of course not, because we weren't together. In the same line of thinking, watching a sermon at the same time as other people does not mean you did church together. There's nothing wrong with watching a sermon at home, but it's no different than watching a teaching on YouTube, or listening to a podcast. Its not the same as meeting in person with other believers.

In any case, it's not up to the government to tell me how to meet with other believers. If a government official tells me I can't meet in person but I can meet online, that amounts to a government official telling me how to practice my religion.

You are wrong-my income is not guaranteed-nothing is guaranteed.
My income is a return on investment from when I worked and sacrificed part of my income for several decades.If the stock market crashes-no more income.
its not free money from the government for doing nothing like you get in Alaska.

So your 'church' and belief is dependent on a building ??

The IRS will have a problem with that as well as Muddyriverdogs.

What if ...because of fire hazard.....the Forest Service restricts your access to the forest. Are you going to ignore that also ? Is that telling you how you can/should recreate ?

I have been enjoying all the different online services by all the local churches here. About time they try to reach the masses again instead of putting their congregation in danger.

Sigh.......it IS meeting together, online. Every religion who is doing this worldwide sees the logic of this,.if yours is so local it doesn't know this, others do who are organized worldwide .....along with everyone else who speaks by phone, face time , zoom or Skype to their loved ones without being with them, or via an online conference- as big business corporations do. That is as true as the grandmother loving to see and hear her grandchildren encouraging her via Skype or other wise.

If you cant see the live action in all of that, at least see the apostle Paul's letters- all his writings- that he said meant as much to the building up of the congregations as in person.

But if you need to save face - no reasoning will suffice .

X2

Same arguments anti-gunners use.


" it's for the good of society "

" when it happens to one of yours you'll feel different"

I'm torn on this one, what's next, tracking devises?

Cuomo just signed by executive order that landlords can't evict someone for failing to pay rent. Only a dirtbag would throw someone out right now if they couldn't pay rent, but beyond that is the taking of yet another piece of freedom.

You start a thread, you don't answer questions, you keep saying the same thing over and over. I have said what I believe is my best to help you and your family and I wish you well. I'll leave you with this. You can have your own service at home, a sermon and fellowship with your family. You can do many things that please God without possibly hurting others. Read the Bible and talk to God, ask him for guidance. I personally don't believe any God would want you to feel this way. I will pray for you and yours.

People not following the guidelines will end up causing much more suffering for everyone....

It happens quite offten ..... Forest Diservice restricting access because of a so called fire hazard ........always trying to save us from ourselves

And some of those " evil landlords " rely on that income to survive ............gov picking the winners and losers

Have you ever had an initial attack crew cutting fire line in your back yard ? I have. They weren't trying to restrict my access to the forest, they were trying to save my house.

I'm guessing you'd be offended by that and tell them to get off your property ??

Forest service will restrict roadways because they know idiots will burn the place down if they don’t and ruin something good for everyone. If they didn’t have restrictions everything would be ruined. Unfortunately it seems like half or more of humans will totally destroy things if there not regulated. Imagine if garbage wasn’t regulated.

Come on white , you know thats not what im talking about

You said restricting pubilc access to public forest because of a fire hazard ........happens here all the time for a multitude of reasons , alot of it is bs

Obviously if an inferno is in ones backyard its not going to be unrealistic to have restricted access to mushroom picking in that moment

It happens here too but it isn't some Big Government plot to keep citizens out of the forest. It's to protect the dang forest and the public resources in it

You might think differently if you lived where the national forest is managed soley by liberals

Its always in the " name of protecting public resources "

I lived in CA for 29 years.

That is way long enough to understand the motives in undercurrent tactics....and to discern the need in protection, in other dealings.

Memory loss then ? ....lol

That was a long long time ago ....things have changed in the last 30 yrs

Where in cali did you live ?

I have absolutely no doubt it is worse now than then.

AS a kid I was was about 20 miles east of L.A

After the military I was in N. CA in Humboldt county

I was born in west covina , lived in big bear for awhile

Part of my high school yrs i lived in Truckee

WOW I was born and grew up in Monrovia.

Fished Big Bear many times.
College at Humboldt

In n out ...has finally moved north into oregon ( ive been waiting 35 yrs ) . If you hold out long enough they may move into washington and then alaska

I remember the orange/ red tide ( gold fish ? ) in big bear lake . And the layer of smog that would creep up from the valley ....

I remember the one in Monrovia. On HGWY 66 right under the train trestle. I don't know how early they were there but I remember them at least around 1950. Good stuff !!

I had family in West Covina from about '53 to '60

Prolly not a place either one of us wants to return to ......

LOL !! I still have family there that I haven't seen in decades and never will unless they leave.

You couldn't pay me to even transit the area! If I can't carry, I'm not going !

It was 1948 white , first one in baldwin park , a mile from my grandmothers house ..........growing up i never knew what a mcdonalds was .....lol

Me either. Peaks, in Pasadena was the prototype for MCD. I met Sirhan Sirhan at that place. He was working there around 1962-63

1948. They sure have been a success

Good thing you didnt wiz him off ............lol ...........crazy

Actually he was a pretty decent guy. Good shot too

What a time and place to grow up. ! Highway 39, woodys, surfer girls, Bob's Big Boy on Colorado Blvd. Deuce coupes and the Little Ol Lady From Pasadena.

Bowfishing for carp at Puddingstone dam in the spring and San Gabriel drag strip .....off Rivergrade Rd.

Dont forget Sambo's resturant ....lol

Oh riiiiiiiigght !! I do remember that !!

Well I suppose we've hijacked Goose's thread enough for one night !!

Fun to reminisce without having to be there !

Wasnt puddingstone a small man made lake / swim hole with steel slides into the water , and a nasty overcrowded beach ?

Or am i thinking of something else ?

Roger that

Many good things that has had us led to the appreciative places we have found .

And the depth we see in goals we will meet . Everything else is unfocused static . To see the gems sparkling in our timeline is all we need.

True story

Getting back to LG original post.... I often wondered how Our Lord would view these mega churches when the Second Coming arrives.

I attended one in Minnesota, several times, at a friends request. Both he and his wife were big time "arm wavers" and liked the pastor... Mac Hammond. Now a service at this church was a real New York production. A band that could put Elvis's Hawaii tour musicians to shame. A great choir and awesome speakers. The underlying message I got out of Mac's sermon was the "God wants us to be successful and wealthy".

My friend said that he made a tithe to the church of 20% of his earnings. When the market crashed in '98, he was unable to give but a small pittance to them, but was chastised for going back on his original pledge.
He was shunned by those in the inner circle, of which he was originally part of.

Seems to me like some churches have lost sight of what a house of worship should be about. I remember a great movie..... If I remember correctly it was called Leap of Faith, with Steve Martin. He plays an evangelical preacher who pedals his bogus cures to reap big donations. The movie ends with him getting stuck in a small Kansas town where a miracle actually takes place.

Born and raised Catholic.... Yeah, I heard all the Catholic priest abuse jokes, but my church now is watching a trout "tail out" a redd in our stream or watch a grouse drag her one wing on the ground, when you come upon her on a spring hike. Must be babies near... Watch your step!

Getting back to the abuse thing...... After attending Catholic school for 12 years in the late 40's, well if nuns were included in these "abuse" cases, I'd be a millionaire.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No need for the insult. Just asking if that is what you meant. You said no. Thanks.[/quote]

I was serious.[/quote

Me too. You answered my question. Thank you.

Yep..

Was this the church that now has 41 people testing positive for covid? Or a different church ( that wasn't taking it seriously)?

Most every other church has found a way to get the messages out without endangering their entire congregation.

Our seminary cancelled on-site class, and in-house daily chapel service even before the orders came to do so. DTS, and other world-leading non-denominational seminaries came to the same conclusion fairly quickly. We are now all online from this point until ???

Everyone I interact with daily from Dallas Theological Seminary (professors, staff, students) realize that this isn't optimal, but there are times when we as followers of Christ should be an example; salt, and light, to the world. Churches should be the very first to protect brothers and sisters, whatever that may look like.

It's not a earthly political or freedom America theme.
It's a biblical calling to serve your brother and sister and guard them.

Helping to protect "other" people's lives isn't selfish, it's biblical.
Many know Matthew 22:39, where Jesus answered the religious Jews who asked the greatest of commands, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," but Christ who came to fulfill the Law knew the Hebrew Scriptures intimately so Jesus knew that He answered the religious Sadducees quoting the words spoken by God to Moses in the Hebrew text; Leviticus 19:18, "You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord."

We as followers of Christ should never put "my rights and privileges" above our concerns over others. If we do, please don't quote your Bible, because your hermeneutics and interpretation skills need a Divine reset.

Unselfishness and righteous (opposite of self-righteous) behavior is not common in society, but the redemptive way has been made available as a choice to each of us... by the One who described it as a narrow, not well traveled path.
Mercifully some are allowed on it by choice, not by good deeds or cash or any host of false means.

Blessings y'all
Mark

Millions of people are going to work, getting ready for work, getting out of bed to work and already at work, right now as I write this. They are all going to mingle with millions of other people. More millions of children than the millions of adults going to work are going to mingle with millions of other children and millions of adults who drop off and pick up kids at daycares all over the nation. That is all perfectly fine.

When 30 of those people who all work together, get together outside of work to celebrate one of thems birthday, or peaceably assemble at a church, or take those kids to park to mingle instead of a daycare, why they are just irresponsible jerks doing their best kill old people and kids with asthma. I say put them in prison to mingle with only a few thousand and slow the spread of this virus.


Anybody that decides to use a TV set for target practice is clearly unhinged and should be redflagged.

Who yells fire in a theater that has fire alarms? Does it really cause a panic?

Wonderful post Mark!

A quote from the movie "Cool Hand Luke"...... "Some people, you just can't reach"

Exactly the opposite. The church is not the building, it's the group of people that meet anywhere. I feel like there's too much relying on a building and one dude to do all the teaching today. The early church met every single day in each other's homes and shared a meal together, which is why we're meeting in our home and having a meal.

What questions have I not answered?

ksp,
The pandemic of a bug is one issue.
The pandemic of sin heightened during times of societal stress is bigger than any bug.

What about all the millions of people going to work today. Taking their kids to a daycare. Some of those people working are in factories, distribution centers and warehouses with hundreds of people all coming into contact with each other. Why are you folks ignoring them??????????? Shouldn't they have to stay home also? How long before they too start dropping like wasps sprayed with carb cleaner? I am thinking it should happen any day now.

Not certain I folla ya.
Are you concerned about your fellow man & woman?
Or trying to prove a point?

you answer first mark june

You may have already done so.

Two of the people who hat were in our small group were recovering drug addicts. They had been coming for a couple months, had made a decision for Christ, and we're baptised the week before the church building closed. How sincere their commitment was, nobody knows I guess, but if I had to guess, probably not very, but at least they were coming and learning. But as soon as "church" closed, they just gave up. For them as brand new church goers, the building was church as far as they were concerned, and the dude that stands up front was the only one that did the teaching and ministering. After "church" closed, they kept communicating for a while, but never came to our home church. Once we offered to host narcotics anonymous in our basement because the church that had the meetings closed, they quit communicating with everyone in our group, except to tell one guy they "have other stuff going on". So now these two guys are probably lost again because as far as they were concerned "church" just gave up and shut down just like the rest of the world and gave up on them.

No worries Loosegoose. Its illegal to assemble now so drug addicts are just all going to stay home. They wont be able to buy drugs. Homeless people won't share needles or poop in the gutter either. They are staying in their tents and cardboard boxes. Pooping in dumpsters while maintaining their 6 foot distance from each other. Im not sure how they are keeping other peoples poo off their feet but they must be doing something. Thats why the homeless are not clogging up the emergency rooms.

I just opened this because I have been staying off the computer. I knew I would find you being cynical on this thread. Can't help yourself can you Danny? Are you working or still hiding and hunkering down like a tick. You and several others on here have really shown your (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) here the last few weeks. The transparency is a good thing. Knowing those who can't play well with others because they are to selfish is actually a good thing really. You have had nothing but argument in this crisis. LLL

LLL you are a real piece of work. Where have I said dont hunker down like a tick?????????? Quit putting words in my mouth its getting on my last nerve.


WHAT I"M SAYING IS DON"T TOSS THE BILL OF RIGHTS OUT THE WINDOW

Freedom is a good thing even when its scary

The church doors may be closed here. but we have found ways to worship and serve. Services by TV, Facebook and other social media, food by bag instead of sit down. Need to break out this week and go to a doctor, the battery for my tremor control (Deep Brain Simulator) is near dead and needs to be replaced.
Prayer for you my friends.

https://www.stevechilders.org/chine...worship-meetings-immediately-eradicated/

Now this is what i was talking about.

Speaking of putting yourself and others in danger......
Another woman that was attending our small group is a brand new christian, and her commitment seems sincere. She's a single mom, just broke up with her boyfriend and moved out, and in a rough place in life. She was a waitress and lost her job at the same time the "church" closed, and was having a really rough time with it. Nobody would go visit her, not her family, not her new church friends, nobody. My wife went over to her house and visited, and this woman said it made a huge difference. She was really struggling with her faith, and feeling like the church just gave up on her because of a germ, but she held on to her faith because someone (my wife) was still willing to visit her. A week and 4 days after my wife went to visit her, this woman was presumed positive for covid19. (We're past the two week time by the way) Obviously my wife, by going to visit her, put our entire family at risk, and the risk was very real as this woman is now sitting at home sick. Was it worth the risk? Absolutely! This woman likely would have just given up had no one made the effort with her. Now my wife is dripping off groceries on her porch, because no one else will. Should we just abondon this woman, because she's sick? Or would the Christian thing to do be to take a chance and minister to her?

So the right to assemble peacefully is unimportant rambling?

Just because you have a right to do something doesnt mean you have to do it.

With all the millions still working, all the millions of kids in daycare, THIS VIRUS IS STILL GOING TO SPREAD. If you are in questionable health you need to stay home. If your healthy and your family is healthy and you CHOOSE to assemble it is your right. Recognized by the first amendment.

With all the talk on here about defending the 2nd amendment I am astounded at how many think tossing out the first is a wonderful idea.

I will never apologize for sticking up for the constitution and its recognition of individual liberties. I will never back down from it either. It is important to me. I am not giving up my liberty to anyone.

No lll I am not working. I have turned down full time work. I dont want to work except part time now. I am not giving my word to work even when I don't want to. I am hoping I have 20 years of life left and I am going to spend those years doing what I want to do. No more putting the needs of a business above my own.

I believe one could accurately say this country was founded by,"those who don't play well with others". Maybe they were "too selfish" too!
MT

Really? The government should chain the doors shut on a religious institution because they don't practice true Christianity? Who cares if he's a nut job? It's not the government's job to tell him how to practice his religion. That is the entire point I'm trying to make.

Seems you have switched from the subject of having a huge crowd now to a one on one. Even if you are limited to a crowd of 10 you still aren't limited in your work. There is still 24 hrs in a day, unless somehow now you think the sun will stand still for you. Somehow i discern that you kinda believe in pyramid building. I could be mistaking but are you not the one that was advocating having lots of kids to finance social security in the future? And now you are advocating people risk their children and their older parents by assembling together and then go off in their community bearing good gifts. You can't gain Gods' good grace by throwing the children in the fire. And besides that throwing them in the fire is putting your future social security in jeopardy.
This thread seems to have came along way from a gathering of a huge crowd down to saving one sick woman, Ok that's your saving face even if it is along way from where you began. Carry on !

Settle down everyone
Now everybody sing-Jesus loves me.

Jesus Loves Me yes I know,Cause the Bible tells Me so--who's next?

Huh? It's two separate but related things I'm speaking about.
Thing #1: I believe it's still good to gather with other believers. I've never said anything about gathering in big groups; our home group has been 12 people.
Thing #2: it's good to take risks to continue ministering people. My wife took a chance ministering to a woman who ended up being presumed positive with covid19 a few days later, which yes, put our family at risk, it because she took a chance this woman is not just giving up. Sometimes you can't minister to people over the intertwebs, you have to meet them and take a risk. Some of these people are babies in their faith and will just give up if no one makes an effort for them.

who cares that he is a nut job? its all about the gospel! false teachers leading others to an eternity in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). I CARE!!

Danny, help me out here:

You hate it when the common man is helped out by our government to try and stop this virus dead in it's tracks, you hate it when people are told not to congregate to try and stop this virus dead in it's tracks, you talk about the millions and millions working and in daycare [Christ !!] and, yet - you don't even work full time - or even part time - unless you want too ??

Must be nice !!

No wonder you feel the way you do, it must be great being able to avoid contact with other humans for the most part - by choice.....


But I'm with you - I just last week walked off the job, after 33 solid years - with no intention of returning - because I myself don't relish the thought of working on a poorly ventilated assembly line where sickness abounds, and oh we have to be there because we are considered essential, God knows why.......

So, I up and left - because unlike you, I do not view this virus as B.S. and I also have elderly parents that I am close to and help out.
*and right after I walked out - a co-worker turned positive for this new virus, which makes me feel real good inside..............

Now, as luck would have it - a job I put in for - to get me off that disease ridden assembly line - literally today - just came through, so I'll be riding on a forklift shuttling parts back and forth, unloading trucks, etc... which is great because the amount of human contact which I will have will be minimal, which is something I am completely acceptable with during this crisis which is obviously something not effecting your neck of the woods at all.

So, right after Easter I return to work, in a new position of my choosing, yes - for much less money, but I'm at a point in my life [just turned 55..] where everything is paid for/off and I can now just coast.

*If I had not gotten that job, I would have take an early retirement, get my pensions rolling in and that's it - I'd be completely free to pursue my hobbies, etc.. while I'm still able and healthy enough to do so.


Tell me, do you also get angry also when the government bails out the rich, the corporations, the stock market, or is it only when the common man is being helped out that you become enraged ??


I ask because one thing I can't stand is corporate welfare and these never ending bailouts ensuring that the rich stay rich..



You mention something about how it is surprising how many people here in favor of the 2nd ammendment are not in favor of the 1st, actually... you are wrong.

Well, I think you are just seeing things differently, as I have no problem giving up some of my civil liberties if it means stopping a - contrary to popular belief - a very deadly virus [*give it time, it's still 2 - 3 months out from hitting the U.S. full force]



This is my very last post here.



T-Man is just not a good forum for me, and that's fine...


I'll just miss the many good people I crossed paths with here, who helped me out when I had questions about trapping and wildlife, and who also those who posted real interesting things trapping and wildlife related....


Adios Amigos.... !!

Big George leaving, 2.0 The sequel, called; Seriously everyone, I really really mean it this time.

I care too if he's spreading a false gospel and leading people to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). But does that mean the government should shut him down? Should the government decide what is and isn't true? Perhaps we should just go back to a state-sanctioned religion?

First of all, this "germ" is causing world wide suffering ...most people have some kind of phone or computer, which she can reach out to others, and they to her. From the way you wrote , it seems like she didn't appreciate, or downplayed (or you did in your phrasing) the seriousness of learning about it and being thoughtful of others. Anyone is capable of understanding that , aside from being "new". There are many ways of being in contact with others without traveling to homes at this time. The whole world is doing that , it works. Now, unfortunately, she HAS to learn to be in contact via other means , phone, computer, etc.

Fox, and others have made some good points. Missionary, or mercenary -or wanting to sacrifice risk to others by wanting to be seen a martyr ...

Everyone meeting in a group risks illness . To solicit that risk onto others without asking their permission ...in effect, when they go from there to anywhere else. Many others would not agree that it was "worth the risk " , when their loved ones are at stake. From there, everywhere those others go also poses a risk. I'm amazed anyone would WANT to meet anywhere , given all the warnings on a state and national level.

There is a real concern on asymptomatic carriers .

I'm certain there are not a few in your area who would be very upset with that risk being pushed on them , in all the ways transference happens. I feel for them. I for one am glad there is no one in my area with that attitude.

Figuratively speaking, standing proud on the bodies of others who have real risk of becoming sick , due to reckless pride. Many on this forum go about the safe ways of helping others, humble in practicing their religion, without waving a banner of self righteousness , doing just fine in online communications.

It simply cannot be overstated how this gets spread by asymptomatic carriers.

Where are day cares open? That’s why most folks are out of work, they have no one to take care of their children.

Pretty scary how the things our ancestors risked their lives, their families lives, and all their possessions property and money to give us, are being thrown away like useless trash.

If you want to isolate yourself and your family it is certainly your right to do so. Just like it is your right to go to church or to your buddys house for a couple beers and a bbq or to stay home and have groceries delivered. The information is out there. So make your choices. Its what free people do. Make choices. Then live with them.

So you have no issue with someone infecting you or your family with the virus?

They are open here wanna be. The only people out of work are people that work in bars and restaurants. Everybody else is "essential"

LooseGoose and others who are hinting at the fact they feel somehow persecuted or infringed upon (to date) due to virus precautions...

I encourage you to someday share all the ways in which you were "presecuted" by social distancing measures to someone who was actually persecuted for their religious beliefs. A person who has been tortured or maimed, possibly forced to watch while loved ones were raped or murdered. A person who was exiled, lived in fear, or forced to practice their beliefs in secret due to oppressive regimes. Please, by all means, explain in great detail the pains you suffered while not being able to potluck and tell each what great 'Christians' you all are for a month or so.

I have been fortunate enough to cross paths with many different people in life. Even more fortunate to have established enough of a relationship to be able to ask and process what it is that they believe in. Often, learning the beliefs of others has served to only strengthen my own. It is through the examination of beliefs that differ from our own pre-existing ones that we can often gain a more well-rounded view of our fellow man. I thought understanding and caring for each other was something that Jesus guy talked about a fair amount...

While I understand some have a need for fellowship and community, I cannot comprehend my own beliefs ever being dependent on other people 'watching' me practice my own beliefs. This does not mean either of us is right or wrong. I do think it means that many could perhaps benefit from a re-examination of community and what it means to care for others.

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this thread, but when you brought up the 'drug addicts" and made implicit reference to how you could have somehow "saved" them by having meetings in your basement...that was it. Also you alluded to your belief that if the church were still having services these people would be "saved" from relapse. This is equally disturbing, however, it fits right into your consistency in drawing attention to all the "good works" you apparently do. This again seems to highlight your dependence on other people seeing you practicing your beliefs.

Their addiction is not your burden to bear, and their recovery is certainly not your victory to celebrate. As someone in recovery myself, I beg of you this..... do not let your worldy understanding of RELIGION confuse an addict's understanding of the RELATIONSHIP they need with a higher power. When you muddy the water you prevent others from seeing

No one is going to infect us if we practice social distancing and hand washing are they?

I don't go to church. I don't own an AR either. I guess I don't need to worry about your rights so long as I am not using them too?

I agree the government should not try to decide what is true and what isn't, without empirical data. Then again, neither should you. I would question how you know what is and isn't "false gospel" ??

I am fine with you believing whatever you want. I support you in that. But that doesn't mean you have a pipeline to truth about what others choose to believe or disseminate.

I have the pipeline!

Jesus Christ is his name! He is the only Truth!

I understand your point, Danny. And certainly, freedoms are not being banned , just a temporary need to take measures to get through this , healthy.

People are still gathering freely. Just using the modern ways available . No one is banned .

Communist countries BAN freedom to assemble , in any form , that they don't agree with, and anyone found doing so is shot or imprisoned .

Actually, the subject of this whole thread also agrees with total quarantine. In Israel of old, there were very strict commands in dealing with disease and those who had them. Contagious illness had their own camps where they were in effect, exiled for life, unless they beat the illness and then, under a test by those trained to perform, the ok given to allow them back in society.

Anyone infected , upon seeing healthy ones , at a distance, were required to cover their nose and call out to them, "unclean !" as warning.

And, if anyone disregarded strict Israelite laws, mingling with healthy ones ,they were killed. KILLED. That was all commanded straight from divine power down through the priesthood . Old rule, yes...but rule it was , then.

Actually , restrictions are in force to support our freedoms . Freedom to be a healthy society, to take care of those we love dearly.

We all give up certain "freedoms" all the time , for the good of the many...

If you fly on any commercial aircraft....you submit to TSA searches. If you do, why not refuse , and insist on your 4th amendment rights ? When you buy a plane ticket it says right on the ticket jacket that by buying the ticket you relinquish your 4th amendment rights while using the air transit system in the US.

Or wearing seat belts...speeding, to hand over license , registration and proof of insurance to the cop with a smile on his face ..

We are still free, with all our possessions , property, money. Restrictions aren't always a bad thing, and actually support our freedom in safety.

Hey

Anyone see the call for a one world govt due to this virus!? I posted a thread about my opinion on what's coming a few weeks ago when this all started to hit the fan!

Now they are actually calling for it!

Tic Too Tic Tok

I think I see a lesson in "The Letter of the Law" and "The Spirit of Law" is this thread.

This is one thread I'll remember a long time when I see some stating the constitution when it comes to something they hold near and dear like guns and free speach.

And no, I don't attend church, I'm just looking at how easy rights will be given away if it suits the beholder interests.

Why don't you just state your point now and get it done?

I don't comment on here much but I find this thread to be incredibly SAD! Its sad that a person in 2020 is willing to sacrifice the lives of their grandchildren, children , spouse, parents, grandparents and friends lives and all the lives of their friends grandchildren, children, parents, their parents, and grandparents and possibly my family members lives to prove their point that they can do what they want to. You want to save a couple people who have made some bad decisions at the expense of over 100,s of people who have made good decisions including all your family and friends. On top of that its only for a few weeks until this virus passes and they develop therapies and vaccines. Nobody's rights have been infringed upon except the people that you and your family and friends are endangering with your actions. I'm curious what you will tell your children when that one infected person in your meetings infects your family and you have to bury your wife, mom, grandparents because you refuse to do what is RIGHT. If you think this is a hoax maybe you need to have a conversation with Joe Diffies wife or John Prines family or the families of the 3000 people whos family's are grieving the loss of their loved ones that they couldn't even be with in their time of need. You cant get 10 people on here to agree on something and you think 151 countries agreed to start a hoax just for you. Its REALLY just SAD!!!

Lol, sarcasm I hope?

Nope, explain how the Constitution is being trampled on.

There will be a one world governing body in the future-I will say within the next 200 years.

When I joined the military, I gave up lots of my rights, but I knew that it was for the greater good, and that I'd get them back. And I did. I love my rights and want to keep them. However, The short term rule to ban, or minimize, large assemblies is reasonable right now. This pastor blatantly flaunted the rules to gain attention and boost his ego. He could have ministered his flock in safer ways. We'll probably never know how the virus spread through that church service, but since Florida is a hot spot, it probably did. The whole episode is sad. It is not a valid act of civil disobedience. For what it's worth, I am currently laid off, probably until early June, so this is definitely hurting us, but social distancing is really the only way to slow this down. We have 3 distant family members sick, and my dear aunt's doctor just died from it, all in lower 48.

They have been challenging the first, second and forth amendments in various states. It is something to consider.
My wife and three children are considered essential all working in healthcare. If I had not retired, I would still be working.

Saw a lawyer say that stopping people at state lines because they had outta state licence was against the 14th.
I don't know enough about the law to know, but he was pretty infact about it.

Yeah, I took the time to read this entire thread (I guess I thought I needed a laugh, and I got that, but they weren't happy.) I can hardly believe some of the ridiculousness I read on here. Thankfully, I did read a lot of common sense replies (such as the one above) that give me hope for humanity and Trapperman. Be safe everyone, hug your loved ones (that live in your immediate household right now), and use your brains. Happy trapping! ScottW

When do my rights become more important than other peoples lives?

Forgive me as I am about to butcher a quot, but the point will be clear enough.
He who would give up an ounce of liberty to feel safety deserves neither.
It may not be the safest thing to assemble at church or any other place at this time in our history, but we should have the right to make that decision on our own. Govt should not have the right to tell us what constitutional rights we can and can not use. I chose not to gather in a large crowd, but that is my choice to make as set forth in the constitution.

Depends on how easy you give them up I guess.

Ask that question to every town usa, the anti-gun group.

Exactly.

Good point. Being my whole family must be expendable.

How are you going to live Rambo?

One day at a time.

You not expendable Rambo.

People have become too conditioned. Where is the outcry on this site when Governor's closed schools over the virus? That is a Constitutional right to education and not one word.

NO ONE has the right to willfully endanger anyone else, and that includes pointing a gun at them, saying lies about them so they lose their job, or filing news articles calling for the assassination of leaders. There is absolutely no difference in those limits to protect society, to stopping a deluded preacher from exposing a congregation, who will then go out and expose 10,000 more people, who will expose 100,000 more until it kills an entire state. People have the freedom of religion, not the freedom to kill a nation by saying God will protect us.
In my area, some stupid Catholics followed their priest to Ireland, where they became infected and he came home and gave mass to even more of them. That is arrogance and not Christianity. It is the same arrogance of a priest who after this told his followers, that God would protect them in mass. The guy who told me this was Catholic and said, "It also says, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God".

A Christian renders under the Government that which is the Government's and that includes taxes and supporting the Government protecting the population. When a plague mandate says NO MORE THAN 10 PEOPLE GATHERED, that means religions too for now. Iran is experiencing Islam unleashed as those people could not be warned to not lick shrines and worship allah, and they are dying in piles for their "religious rights".
For those still thinking this is their right, just forward this to a month ahead if a Trapper convention ends up infecting a state or some preacher ends up killing a city. What kind of public relations is that going to do for trapping or Christ? People will never forget it, and the population will then vote to remove the rights you had to exercise in a pandemic.

no one has answered me yet so I will ask again. If you are social distancing and staying home how is somebody going to church and being around a bunch of people, or going to work and being around a bunch of other people, putting you at increased risk of getting sick?

is it time for everybody to stay home and just peek through the curtains? what Killed more people in the last two months? heart disease or corona? its very possible to avoid heart disease too but no one is being forced to do those things. which one is projected to kill more people in the next year?

maybe its time to ban any meat. fish is the only protein allowed and skillets should be outlawed. every one will begin mandatory aerobic exorcising tomorrow at the local police station. you are excused if you are hospitalized only. your dr may limit your exorcise but you are going. from now on no one is allowed more than 1700 calories a day for any reason except pregnancy. pregnant women and nursing women will be allowed 2000 calories..

Ever one on here has given up some personal freedom.Do you pay the IRS bill? City says you can't build a house there do you? Register your car? Have a driver s license? etc. These are all a little silly but I think you get my point.

Cause they are spreading the virus around for no good reason and someone who stays home except to get food has a much greater chance of catching it when they have to go out.Do you think everybody is going to starve to death in their house just so you can go and sing some stupid songs with a bunch of bible thumpers?
You must be thick if you dont know that.

Reminds me of the scene in Jeremiah Johnson. When Jeremiah goes back to the Crazy woman's house and finds everyone hunkering down in the shack.

There'd be a lot starving in their house if everyone stayed home, grocers included. Maybe the healthcare workers should should stay home?

That makes no sense.

One can social distance and stay home 99% of the time.....but that other 1% get bit. MOST people pretty much need to go to the grocery store at some point if this goes on. What if the well intended grocery clerk was at one of these unnecessary gatherings and got the crud? Now they touch the shoppers food, or as they are talking wishing well to the shopper spit out a drop of saliva onto the shoppers face. Then this well intended, essential grocery clerk stops on the way home to buy gas and spreads the crap from their hand onto the gas pump handle. Then a doctor on his way home from a week long shift at a hospital stops to fill up his vehicle and in his tired stupor from being overworked by the crud forgets to use gloves when pumping, or hand sanitizer soon after, and by oh so slight chance gets infected therefore making them unable to work and further taxing the healthcare system further increasing anyones chance of dying.

I could go on for hours listing these "far fetched' (but completely real probably already happened) examples that anyone with a shred of decency could realize. Happy trapping! ScottW

Quite a few states now have criminal penalties for violating the kung flu orders.....they are requesting 'mandatory' self isolation for people coming from other areas of the country.....

Tribalism is starting to rise up....national guard was going door to door in Rhode Island telling people from other states they need to self isolate for 2 weeks....

Are we far from having 'kung flu positive' camps? States closing borders? Local residents taking the law into their own hands to deal with 'infected' outsiders?

Things seem to be sliding downhill pretty fast and we are only about 10 days into this....it is like a friggin shtf u tube video on steroids.....

Y'all stay safe and I think it is smart to be prepared for anything to happen...

The FED is predicting 30 percent plus unemployment.

If that lasts very long they will print so much money that the dollar in your pocker may as well be TP.

You do not have the rights you speak of. The CDC can override what you misconceive as your rights. That is the issue you do not have a grip on. I swore an oath to the constitution also Danny. I just know the reality. In certain times, the government can change them for the perceived good of all. You and a few just keep rattling off the same things like a democrat. "If I say it enough times it will be true." Well it is not and you are under a lockdown. Besides I thought you said it was not serious? Wrong there also. You have always been against the church in the past but now it suits your montra of the first amendment. How rich. lol, LLL

LLL i think your full of beans. What good is a document that is to be the corner stone of ALL law if it can be ignored?

I dont care about church I care about my right to assemble. I still dont believe its any more serious than any other flu epidemic we have had.

ScottW--good to see you on here.Been a long time.
So glad to hear you have such a great amount of common sense.
Please stay safe my friend.
Tom

You should buy a lottery ticket

I thought the legislatures made laws and it's up to the Governor to see that are enforced. I can't believe that these edicts are legal, time will tell.

I don't gamble

I do find it kinda wierd they may let criminals free.

Guy I went to high school with has a young, (18-20?) daughter currently in ICU with Covid 19, if you still think this is a flu you're a moron.

Brian, the flu in 1918 killed 5% of the population.

So far Italy is the worst with 200 deaths per million people in the population. That is 1/200th of a percent. And that is Italy. We have 12 deaths per million. It is growing though. When it hits 10,000 per million we will be at 1 percent.

Percentage matters in chicken and hog farms ,or even mange in coyotes, but when its people with names and faces and close to home, numbers don't matter, to me anyway !

This thread got legs. Have we decided if to do what's right forfeits a right?

Maybe right to life is a broader concept than I can fathom. We've dealt with it 40 years and now it looks as if we are at the other end of the spectrum with old people. Put numbers on them and depersonalize them.

approaching 4000 dead and climbing

I finally read this whole thread(I have been trying to ignore it) and I just have one question for those who feel their rights are being infringed. If you get deathly ill from this are you going to stay home and treat yourself or are you going to the hospital and endanger all the healthcare workers who are trying to save you? Are you going to refuse a ventilator so that someone your group infected can have it or are you going to be screaming about your rights and saying me first? Some peoples concept of how special they are just floors me. I am also a nonbeliever but I do believe in doing what is best for my family,my neighbors and my country.

It’s interesting how you bring up the lives of our ancestors and the lives of their families but the lives being jeopardized from Cov19 are not important enough to take a month or two and not gather in large groups.
Nothing is being thrown away like useless trash, it’s simply making an adjustment because of a serious problem for a short amount of time to save “lives”

It is a good thing that WW11 came when Americans would be willing to sacrifice greatly in lifestyle, earnings, injury and lives when we had a generation that was willing do to what was needed to free us and the whole world. With 7 pages of posts it appears to me that we would be unwilling to give in for the common good today. When an individual's rights are more important than the collective rights of a nation to minimize a huge threat then the Constitution really has little meaning as we don't feel that the common good is less important then my own good.

Bryce

Here's a link to a very relevant article that appeared in today's Anchorage Daily News, (originally published by LA Times).

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/20...-members-have-covid-19-and-two-are-dead/

There were several contributing factors to create the "greatest generation." They may have combined to force my grandparents to unify for nationalistic reasons;
> The Bolsheviks led by Lenin came into power in 1917 and Europe and America would quack as a result as the "worker's party" efforts for the common man.
> Nationalistic fascists in Europe were rattling their political swords and while Americans probably didn't think it would be their fight if there was a fight, we would find this thinking inaccurate in the 1940's
> Over 50% of America's population was still rural. Today that number is under 15%
> Most did not have higher education and a large number were not high-school graduates.
> Today we are a culture of higher learning and with higher learning typically comes an attitude of higher individualistic thinking

The liberal theologians, in an attempt to "save" Christianity in America from the new savior of science, medical, and technology advances believed that Christianity could shift with culture and remain "relevant."
This theological logic, devised by great "educated" American thinkers modeling after noted German philosophers of the previous era, said that given enough time and resources, modern man could produce the utopia all were seeking. Since we as America, were the richest nation on earth, we had a head start!
This philosophy, still sitting with us at our tables today, would prove devastating to the faith of our nation, and in the 1880's - 1920's America experienced a marked drop in church attendance. The 1960's with Vietnam and other factors would seal the deal. American's walked out of the pulpits and church in record numbers.

Here we are today. As some read this thread and see sadness, I can sympathize. Selfishness is in all of us, some showing it more than others. But we're all in the same trapping canoe. Some may have paddles. Others insist we let them steer. Most insist government develop something or do something or send something. But "who" is government? Us.
Of, for, and by "Us,"... the people. My in-laws (wives and husbands of our children) often speak of government as if it's some entity. A thing. Naw... it's just people.

18 years ago, I gave my paddle to the One who made me and has had my name in His book before I was Psalms 139:15-18.
He held on to me, as He does many others, through a sincere love of Creation! What a wonderful gift.

Blessings y'all
Stay safe out there

Mark

I am glad and hopeful that the majority on this thread have and use common sense and are pretty intelligent. You will always have a few rebels and right fighters out there no matter what. I'd almost
bet if the majority on here thought what was done to the pastor was dead wrong all the right fighters would flip to the other side of the fence. Some people just like to argue. You can win an argument
with an intelligent person once in awhile, you will never win won with an ignorant one.

If the pastor needed to be arrested why are the parishioners not being arrested also? Seems a bit disingenuous to me, to only arrest one of the lawless horde instead of all of them .

Leadership is usually held to account.

Proverbs 26:4 ESV
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

Idolatry still raises it head even today. Its a heavy load and since laziness is another ailment of our society , what better way to tote those idols around than on a cart. Its those things that really matter that we carry on our shoulders !

Kill the shepherd and scatter the flock.

How do you keep the Jehovah Witness people from knocking on your door, during the Corona Virus Pandemic ???

Tell them you are preaching John 1:1 online this week - complete with Greek New Testament translation of the begotten Son

We used to run and hide when I was little and stayed the summers with my grandma when she'd see them pull in but since I built my house ten year ago I decided I wasn't running from them any longer. Lol. I just politely let them know I had a bible that had all I needed to know in it and they quit coming

1096 deaths in NYC due to chinese flu. 13/100ths of a percent in a crowded city that is an epidemic waiting to happen every day of the year. A city with the worst rat and cockroach problem in the United States. Its about one death for every 7846 people. Last year 44092 died of heart disease. Or 121 people a day. March 3 the first case was CONFIMED in NY. So 28 days ago. Works out to 39 a day. It will without a doubt get worse. To many people are going to work every day. Every one needs groceries.


where were they loading bodies into a refer with a fork lift? I do not believe for a second it was in the U.S. The number of deaths is just not that high. Still no reports of a mass homeless population infection. Prison either.

Nope,but sure mass die offs in nursing homes.An awful lot of prisoners have been let loose--also Ca. putting homeless up in empty hotels.
An awful lot of health care workers are paying a heavy price for the services they provide.
Time to quit all knit picking and pray for the best and to thank all those who are helping their fellow Americans.

THANK YOU ,I do appreciate those unselfish people. AGAIN--THANK YOU.
Tom

Listening to a constitutional lawyer speak on this right now.

Outside these guidelines just making sense and helping everyone to be a good neighbor and protect lives.

This is constitutional! In a nut shell for two reasons:. 1. It's temporary 2. It's being applied equally to everyone

Where it will become unconditional is when it becomes permanent or is not applied equally.

Deblosio is trying to permanently shut down churches! That is unconstitutional!! They are letting criminals out while fining or jailing other citizens for not complieng with guidelines (such as this pastor in question). That promotes inequality and is unconstitutional!

So... If criminals are being released due to virus and you are put in jail because of the virus!? You have a law suit!

And again

It's not the first time in our history that we have done this!

I'm not trying to argue, just sharing something I read minutes ago. California prisons, for example, are releasing a set number (3,500 I believe) of non-violent offenders who are also serving their last 60 days or less of their sentence

So a hypothetical might be a person convicted of check forgery serving a 24-month sentence might be released on their 23rd month, or 30 days early. I am not comparing jails to prisons, there is a difference. But Minnesota county jails, for example, generally used to follow a 2/3 sentence for good behavior. Meaning if you are sentenced to sit 90 days and follow the rules, you will be released after 60, or sit 45 days of a 60-day sentence, or 20 days of a 30-day sentence, etc. Releasing people a month or so earlier than the original sentence is pretty common and this is proportionally much more than say 30 days off a 3 year sentence. Again, from what I understand these California releases are not freshly sentenced murderers and rapists, but people who have essentially served their time already.

From what I've seen also, at least here, the legal restrictions on these stay-home orders are about the equivalent of a disorderly conduct charge. In other words, the absolute bare-minimum charge anyone could receive. I doubt there would be jail time. If you are not a career criminal, this charge would likely cost more to prosecute than they would be able to fine you for. Anyone arrested on this would need to be blatantly being defiant of the large gathering ordnance, in other words, willingly breaking a law.

I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me. I was just reading this morning.

its not a law in kansas its a royal proclamation

Doesn't matter from what I understand. To current topic.

If pastor was arrested for virus and inmates are being released because of virus? Then it's unconstitutional

Can't fine someone forvirus either if your currently releaseing criminals for virus

He did raise questions to the authority the govoners are using to issue orders.

refrigerated truck

Maybe loading dead bodies is all fake, I wasn't there, but looked real to me on the TV the other nite, I did find this on utube.
They know that if they shut everything down it would stop it quicker, but people have to eat, have electricity, have water and sewer, probably throwing garbage in the streets wouldn't help, police, all medical people, truck drivers, yes its a big list and what I get is they know its impossible to shut everything down, but the medical community is overwhelmed and if they can just slow the infection rate down, it will give the medical people time to run them thru. If all were sick at once the beds would not hold them, they would be laying in the streets, yards, stores and every where else. That's why if people would cooperate and only do the essentials they could prolong it and untie the med equip so more could be saved.

I keep thinking of some old things on the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, but just can't seem to be able to write about it yet or if its even worthwhile.

That's nonsense. By that logic, it'd be constitutional to confiscate all guns, as long as it's temporary and it's applied equally to everyone.

Plain and simple, there is no way that your rights can be suspended or infringed upon just because there's a crisis. It just doesn't work that way. And certainly not by royal decree.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-response-law-liberty-in-emergency/

Another right fighter, they put a common freakin sense temporary law in effect to protect people. You're not allowed to shoot someone because its against the law! Are your rights violated or should you be allowed to shoot people?
Good lord ignorance has shined on this thread.

Huh? Common freakin sense to protect people....is that kinda like "common sense gun control" laws to protect people? 'It's for your own good!" "It'll make us safer!" I'll take freedom over safety, thank you.

And when did I say I should be allowed to shoot people?

No common sense tells me that if we're not sure if someone has a deadly virus or NOT they should not be allowed to come around other people. Do you see you're a vast minority on this thread and site. Does a bell go
off in your head as to why? Didn't think so. I wasn't saying you said that but shouldn't it be your "right" to shoot people? I mean who are they to take that "right" away?

Um.......Bass10 are you feeling okay, man? I've never advocated for a right to shoot people, I'm not sure where that's coming from. That's just bizarre, and a strawman argument that's too strange to even attempt to get in to.

Gathering together when there is a virus spreading at an incredible rate that kills people and theres no way of knowing who has it is ABSOLUTELY equal to spraying a crowd with bullets, it may kill them or it may not if you had any COMMON SENSE you would understand that. But since you're stuck on it isn't in the constitution you think you have the right to go ahead and do it. We wouldn't even have to have laws if everybody had COMMON SENSE but it's obvious you are WHY there has to be laws. What you are doing by gathering is killing people in the name of religion just like some other counties in the middle east. Us TRUE Christians put the safety of our constituents before whether we think it's our right because the constitution says so now they'll have to make another law for you!

Who'd I kill?

This reminds me of sitting around the TV getting the latest Covid 19 news. (Apologies for the gallows humor).

Time will tell I hope for your sake and the sake of your family and friends that you "dodge the bullet" Take care!

Yeh I guess the point I was trying to make is how do you pick and choose what laws or rules the government puts in place are against your rights? My wife just told me they’re going to put more restrictions on how many people they’re allowing in a super market at one time, there they go again it should be the stores right to let a couple hundred a time in their stores!

Didn't say I understood it. But I do trust the source.

And again

It's happened before

None of this is adding up as far as I'm concerned. It's either worse than reported or a big hoax!

But if what I heard today about China lieing about actual numbers!? If say we are about to see a lot of death!

Its simple bass10. Read the constitution. Anything the constitution says the government can not do then they are not allowed to pass a law, or issue a decree, saying otherwise. The means to amend the constitution are in the constitution.

Lincoln issued a proclamation. He called it the emancipation proclamation. The whole thing was hot air. They had to change the constitution 3 years later to free slaves. If you believe the lie you were taught in Jr High history class you need to do a little research.

Proclamations, executive orders, or whatever else they want to call them, can not create a new law today anymore than they could 150 years ago. Especially if they violate what has been laid out in the constitution.

Saying the first amendment can be temporarily suspended for the greater good is so ridiculous I cant believe how many are agreeing that it is ok.

It was for the greater good that the Louisiana governor and the mayor of New Orleans had cops and National Guard confiscating firearms after Katrina

What is govt job?

I'm with ya Danny. I'm for the constitution when it's my savior on gun issues, and I'm also for it when it might kill me as in this case.

These guys can call us ignorant of whatever, I don't care.

I hear ya!

But I do believe govt can constitutionaly act in this way temporarily if need be. One of their jobs is to protect the nation and it's borders as a whole.

But I'm sure it's a fine line to be towed!

Hear the one thing I fear giving the day of age we live in.

Here the future headline by the he left: evangelicals responsible for spreading desease

Watch! One bone head preacher proven to have gotten someone killed will lead to that head line!

Won't be China's fault!
Won't be our govts fault for not acting!
Won't be your fault because you wouldn't adhere to guidelines!

It will be that evangelical Christian pastors fault for holding church service! Wait for it! I bet you see a head line soon!

Then when they have some catastrophe and they say you need to hand your guns over, your ok with that?

Can't imagine anything that would justify that.

And for that reason I would say no. Because I'm pretty sure anything they would say to justify that would be a lie. This on the other hand is a virus I would gladly let you have it you told me I didn't have to keep it.

Also, if you came to my house to kill one of my kids!? You had better kill me first!

That being said. If I could proove it was your stupidly by not adhering to guidelines that got my children sick and killed. You had better go ahead and kill me as well!

Your comparing apples to oranges

What freedoms are you giving up by obeying temporary guidelines?

I almost feel as if some people could care less if they hurt anyone!? So again I will say that your rights end where the other person's nose begins!

I'm a simple person as most here would agree.

It's either against the constitution or it isnt. If we allow one to be broken, it's only a matter of time until well allow all them to be broken.

That's what Abe said today. A temporary stay home order isn't against the Constitution. A punishment for the temperary stay at home order might be unconstitutional!? That why they say "guidelines". What is really being questioned is that some govenors are implementing punishment.

If it's illegal for people to gather in a private building, then I guess I'm wrong.

well said hippie

Hippie, there are some rulings from SCOTUS that you could look up if ya want.

scotus said that the NFA was constitutional too

Is it illegal for me to shoot you if you get my family sick?

Just saying!

See where the other person's nose begins yet!?

Brian, if he gets your family sick, your family should shoot you for not telling him to keep his distance from them when comes by to pick up your trash or deliver groceries or whatever

Trust me!

I've got four kids, a wife, and an elderly grandma that I promised to protect at my grandpa's death bed!

That's where my nose begins. I'm not sure to what extent of go to revenge them or protect them!

And you don't see a problem with that logic?


Yeah, I'm sure people like you have no respect for anyone but yourself.

The Texas Governor agrees with you as just yesterday he declared church as "essential" as long as CDC guidelines are followed.

The churches in Texas are probably doing more to help people, especially school age children, than any other group or the government.

Just an example Danny

Point being is that your right to peacefully assemble doesn't out weigh another's right to be safe or protect their assets and family.

We can save tens of thousands a year if we hand our guns in. Is that the end of your nose Brian?

Fine line for sure!

Lol

You don't listen do you!

I

No one's making you attend. If your scared, stay in your house.

I honestly hope it's only you and yours that people like you end up hurting!

Good deal.

Lol

Yeah, it fear!

Pretty sure this is about the only thing we will agree on today.

Just because it is your RIGHT to peacefully assemble does not mean you have to go to your neighbors BBQ, anymore than the right to keep and bear arms means you have to own and carry a firearm.

Good day

And I'm sorry

I wouldn't wish any harm on your loved ones. I hope the only people hurt by stupid choices are the one who make them.

Nice ......This is how it should be

What would you equate walking into that church sick to? Maybe the same thing as someone walking in with a gun pulling the trigger?

Go ahead

Strap that gun to your side and show the world how big and fearless you are!

Fun killing time, have a good one fellas, and stay safe!

The freedom to gather in person with other believers, plain and simple. Using the fist-swinging anology, my right to swing my fist ends at your nose, sure. But you can't stop me from swinging my fist just because it might get it your nose. You can only punish me after it hits your nose. On the same line of thinking, you can't stop me from meeting people because they.might get sick, but you surely can continue after they're sick.

Come to think of it.....that's the same mentality behind red flag laws. Take someone's gun away because they might do something bad, not for something.theyve actually done.

But5 it is OK for Muslims!

Yep everything is good for muslims in KC.

https://www.icjc.org/

Lol

What do you mean I someone can't stop you from swinging? Go try it! Go out and swing at someone! Go out and pull your gun on someone! I bet someone beats you to a pulp or puts you in the ground! What do you mean I have to wait till after before I can react!?

You all really don't get it do you!?

Wow!

No freedoms have been taken from you and you don't have the right to do what you want!

Not yet anyway

There are some situations with some of these govenors that may proove to be troublesome!

I am confused. In the fist swinging metaphor which of these two options is the nose...the fictitious "right" to remain healthy and virus free or the actual constitutional, god given rights to peaceably assemble and practice religion.

........ and you bashed the bundy when they wouldn't give up there guns lol

You do realize you are in a fantasy land right? You keep talking about constitutional rights that really are not as you wish they were. When there is a risk of the general population getting a disease the CDC has powers given to them by the congress and the POTUS by executive order to protect the population. Actually there are a lot of rights that are taken away in war time. The war powers act comes to mind. That act can force a company to manufacture products that the country needs. You are actually not worth the time it takes to type this because you are so self centered (and a lot of people see this) and have nothing better to do. Get a hobby or maybe a job. Go do something positive like helping a neighbor or donating time. LLL

I sure am glad your wrong Larry

http://staging.islamiccenterofsouthflorida.org/

looks like they are still peacefully assembling in florida too

Here is how wrong I am. You have your head in the sand dude. LLL

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

It's a metaphor. Nobody's actually swinging fists, nobody's pulling guns, don't worry. The point is that we don't punish people (by forcing them not to leave their home/throwing them in jail) for what they might do ( like get people sick or do something stupid with a gun), we only punish people (by forcing them not to leave their home or go to prison) for what they've actually done.

My right to peaceably assemble with members of my faith is being infringed upon. In some places of the country I could be arrested for going to church.
You real don't get that, do you?

It used to be legal to own people as property, it used to be legal to force people to the back of the bus, that didn't mean that it was right or constitutional or moral or okay.

Just because it's "legal" to tell someone they can't go to church or assemble doesn't make it right, moral, legal, constitutional, or okay.

Providing for the general welfare means the rest of the bill of rights can suspended? I think the sand is all packed in your ears. We would not need a bill of rights to restrain the government if governments were not always trying to expand their authority. Why even have a bill of rights if it can be suspended anytime politicians feel like it?

Why are the Muslims not being harassed for peaceful assembly in Florida?

I am beginning to think we are being conditioned to believe that our rights are given to us by the government. That they are not natural rights, or in your case Larry, given to you by your creator.

Lol

Any group over ten. But it's gotta be about you! Right?

And it's temporary

Nothing is being taken!

So Brian, it was OK to take peoples guns in New Orleans because it was temporary?

Yes there is. A lot of jobs are gone.

Danny you do not have the rights you have always thought you had. Sorry to break that to you. In a pandamic or war time things are changed temporarily. I am sorry to break the news to you. You either cannot read, refuse to, or cannot comprehend what it says. Quite. You are in denial. It is temporary and you are already self isolating so I don't know what your problem is. Shut the puter off and you will be fine. LLL

Apples to oranges again.

Do you know why they did it?

People like you running around thinking your a coyboy!

Would those of you who are so concerned about your rights to assemble actually recommended that New Yorkers just go to church and restaurants and movies and wherever else they would want to assemble right now? I’m curious what you would recommend seeing that there are roughly 85,000 confirmed Cov19 cases and nearly 2,000 people dead?

If the general welfare clause allows the government to suspend one right, can they declare another emergency and suspend all of them? What if the President declares that all private news outlets are deceiving people, crowds are promoting health problems, church's are anti government, people are inciting unrest by talking about it, law enforcement is in imminent danger from armed civilians, in light of this the bill of rights is temporarily suspended until further notice. Control and safety must return to American streets.

Lots of what ifs!

Point is that your rights don't supercede anothers rights. Others have just as much of a right to be safe from you as you do to gather in a group or carry a gun!

Keystone are you hanging out in crowds? You really think New Yorkers are to stupid to avoid contact with each other? Yes I'm sure a handful will go to church. I dont believe restaurants or bar or theaters will be open. At least not many. They won't have any patrons.


The government can not take or give rights. They can only recognize them. Which every politician in our country takes an oath to do.

Sometimes freedom is a little scary.

safe from me? you think Im going to hug your wife or your kids? I am pretty sure that even in an acceptable hugging situation they are smart enough not to

I don't think anybody would recommend it but....they have every right to assemble because that right does not come from .gov.
If ever the left tries to disarm Americans this virus has showed them how to do it with minimum losses to their forces.
As for me I think like this. To do what is right does not mean a suspension of rights. However, as a freeman I have temporarily forfeited my right to assemble. It's not .govs place to do so.
Anyway for me I'll fear God, not corona.

Keep talking like a lib danny. Say it enough and you will be right. You just don't get it. Even your counterparts have decided they were wrong but danny still wants to argue and defend liberty that he does not have. Really ignorance is bliss. LLL

Dead people don't hold too many high paying jobs.
I doubt the Dr and Nurses want their jobs right now and not many are willing to help make their jobs easier. They are not doing it for the money, but because of a calling and certainly not the same calling as the grand standing preachers that we are hearing.

Get the sand of your ears Larry. Grow up. Don't be so cowardly. Claim the rights you are endowed with and recognized in the document that lays out what government can and can not legally do.

I guess this makes me a fool. LLL

Oh and if you knew me cowardly would not be how you would describe me. lol

Unfortunately they do take and give us our rights, i don’t see how you missed that. The local, state, and federal government regulates everything. An example would be fire codes, you can’t assemble as many people as you want in a building at a concert or baseball game or restaurant etc. Our rights are governed no matter how you skin it. As soon as the govt made the constitution you were given rights, from that day they’ve been taking them in one form or another. Your freedom is not as free as you think it is. I’m not saying it’s right i’m pointing out the fact that that’s how it is.

FCOL READ the Constitution ! Specifically article 1 section 9. Then move on to the 10th amendment.

Then read the following.

I am not a constitutional attorney but some of you that are need to go back to CONLAW 101.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569983/

Just to clear the air, I had quit posting anything as some of y'all are incapable or unwilling to understand what liberty is. I do not in the slightest believe that I was or am wrong. I nor Danny that I can recall ever said we should all go to church or gather in large groups, only that we should not have the right to do so, or any other rights for that matter stripped away. Now I will agree to disagree and probably not post anymore on this topic, appreciate if you don't take it as anything other that I am done.

I would like to thank the person that posted this quote. Hope you don't mind me using it, will saves me from butchering it again.

I suggest you read the post above yours. Might help some.

He said he wouldnt trade it for "a little temporary safety".
In other words he implies that he would trade it for a lot of permanent safety.

Thank you White, that was an interesting read. Seems this has been a hot topic for the entirety of our country's existence. There was a lot of double talk in parts of the read, but it does appear that quarantine has always been an acceptable tool to use during times of disease. I will admit part of my argument is wrong in the eyes of the law, but I will stand behind my thoughts that freedom should not be taken lightly and worth fighting for.

I agree with you Andrew but the bottom line is THE LAW IS THE LAW ! At least for me The good of the community takes precedence at times like this

Yes, I think good of community is important. I also think individual liberty is important. I just hope and pray that these folks in charge don't try to take it to far, give an inch take a mile kind of thing. I believe a lot of the folks in positions of power would abuse that extra power they are given in a time like this, makes it hard to give that inch.
As I read the link you provided, I was thinking I sure hope these idiots don't try taking away our other rights. If they decided guns are an epidemic, what is to stop them from dropping the 2nd for good of community? At what point do we say enough is enough?

FL made churches exempt now they can infect each other all they want now, go for it!

Did i hear right , virgina is now telling retailers , grocery stores , to ban all sales of non essential goods ? Who determines this ? I need my morning fix , blue full throtle

We are on the same page. Gun: the ownership, possession and carrying thereof are NOT a threat to the general population. Of course the Democrats will try to present it as such but we all know it is irrelevant....as do the courts.

Remember that firearms have been determined to be
"essential"

Yes. Firearms are not even in the same logical subject as a new viral contagious pathogen that can infect many asymptomatically, as well as living for hours or days on varied surfaces. Completely different realms in intelligent thought .

Good link, one that made me seek more info!

I found out that is 100% right for things such as war declared and a couple other things, including pandemics. So what I've been thinking was wrong.

Here's the proverbial but! Lol.
I was schooled on some lawyer terms such as "on its face" and "as applied" and if it's implemented at the Federal, State or Local level.
Paraphrasing what I understood, on its face the constitution provides for the shutdown. As applied, this instance might not be constitutional. I took that as, yes they have the power to close churches if it's done correctly, this may not have been based on technicalities.

Then we talked some about the second and how "regulations" skirt the constitution in the same manner, good for society and under times of distress. Don't think guns are totally off limits and unrelated in any way. Think N.O. and Katrina with the fact that lawsuits didn't go very far.

To avoid lawsuits mainly because governments are not calling for a complete shutdown, they are allowing gun shops and now churches to follow the same rules as other essential entities. Even Florida backed up half a step, The "as applied" argument being addressed.I


So, on its face, constitutional. As applied, maybe not so much. Typical lawyers, no definitive answer, lol.

Interesting discussion came from this!

"The good of the community takes precedence at times like this"

" I also think individual liberty is important. "


It seems, this is what we are fighting here.... The question? When does individual liberty trumps community, and vice versa. when and where do you draw the line?

It seems that the "Love thy neighbor as thyself" doesn't mean kill your neighbor in Jesus' name.

Its my belief that the constitution was not written for lawyers. The language in it is simple and easy to understand. It is lawyers that are always muddying the water. If our government should have authority to suspend the constitution, then an amendment needs to be made giving them that authority and clearly defining when it is appropriate.

Yes have a byline in there that the government can change things to protect stupid people from their stupid acts, just in the name of their right!

You really should have wrote it like this...The government can change things to protect wise people from stupid people and their stupid acts in the name of public safety.

They already have done that.

The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.
Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.
The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

I know it is hard for some to grip but it is the law and has been for a long time. It will not be permanent since this has happened in the past and a few months ago you had all the civil liberties you speak of. I don't want to see liberty infringed and as a Christian I feel strongly about fellowship. Having said that I know that I as a Christian am commanded to follow authority given to man by my creator. A conflict that is real for a Christian. Do we forsake the fellowship or go against authority. Right now it is wise not to meet in our usual manner. It is the way we have to do to truly show love for our neighbor and not take a chance of giving each other a disease that could kill them. It is my right to pick up a poisonous snake but it is not wise. It also goes against Mathew 4:5,6 LLL

I know it gives comfort to some timid folks that the government will take care of them. Commerce clause does not however provide authority to suspend the bill of rights with the general welfare language. So why not make all those timid people happier with an amendment giving specifics on on why and what, and when, the bill of rights can be suspended? It will make it constitutional to care for people who do not want to accept responsibility for their own well being.

That is really unfair. Our church fed a bunch of kids on Wednesday evening's but since we can't meet that mission is severely diminished.
I've come to the conclusion that in times of quarantine it's perfectly okay to gather to work(serve money) but not okay to gather to serve God.

J, I don't see it like that. The normal routine is altered, not the missionary acts. Why not take the meals to the homes of these kids and leave them on the porch? I know people that have to get their temp taken before they start their shift, and other things that they never had to do before. The people out their working are keeping the lights on for all of us and are heroes in my book. Yes, you have to adjust your normal routine, doesn't mean you can't continue your outreach.

They have changed nothing at my work. No temps taken...nothing different. We do take sack lunches to those kids who request them but since us younger folk are essential it falls on the retired to deliver. Kinda ironic that the most vulnerable have to take the reins.

It seems it is always an I issue with you danny. Me Me Me. What about me. Shameful outlook really. You were probably in the service for your own betterment also not to provide for the common defense. You have shown your true colors and hid behind liberty. Sad.

If you think I need government to provide anything for me you are nuts. I have enough canned food from last years garden to last well past when my 150'x150' garden produces again. That food I prepped well before corona came around. I donate bushels of produce every year to our church members as well as a homeless shelter a few blocks from the garden. I am self employed and pay more taxes than you could fathom. Nope not depending on no one. LLL

Our system of government is very ugly and inefficient because it requires a constant power struggle between the government and the people. The state has upheld its immediate obligation to promote the public good for a number of very good reasons by shutting down the church and arresting the pastor. I can accept this on some level as a necessary evil given the current situation. But, in the end, this must be challenged and ruled unconstitutional to avoid further erosion of constitutional rights. Claiming this is ok because a law was passed, does not explain the tens of thousands of laws that have been overturned because they are unconstitutional (including may gun laws). It is messy, but the process can find balance between individual rights and the immediate common good provided the people resist government overreach.

Sooner or later we will return to the elections. You may find yourself shaking your head in disbelief that a socialist is running for president. You may ask yourself "how is this possible?" That answer is staring you in the face right now. In the coming decades Corona virus will be used as a case study in class rooms. It will not be a lesson in American freedom or unity. It will provide a very clear example of how individual rights pose a threat to community health. It will provide an example of how a strong, centralized government is most capable of protecting you. The net result of these lessons will be constitutional republic bad, socialism good.

Its not 1918 any more. The very subtle but dangerous difference is computer modeling. The 1918 quarantines were based on things that had already happened. Corona virus response has been based on projections of what may happen. One indisputable lesson from 1918 is that the sooner the quarantines were put in place the more effective the outcome. With computer modeling we can quarantine before an outbreak occurs. On its face this is a good thing. But consider climate change. A large amount of legislation has been passed to prevent computer model predictions from coming true. In some cases the models have proven to be wrong, yet the laws remain. It is a sort of pre-crime scenario and we are on the verge of applying to public health.

Before you dismiss the above as mindless babble consider this: In 2018 congress approved and provided funding for the CDC to study gun violence. I reasonably assume this study will include computer models and I suspect there will be clear evidence to proclaim a gun violence epidemic. When this happens, the very same arguments against the church will be used against gun owners. On top of this, Corona virus will play heavy on public perception. It is very likely that current events are setting the precedent by which the CDC's recommendations on gun violence are given the force of law.

Yeah, that does stink,idk.

That's a good post scotts, plenty to think on.

Very well stated. I said to someone else we are setting precedents that may in the future may involve our second amendment. People are all to eager to allow this imo.

Eating the elephant one bite at a time.

My uncle died this morning and I guess I want be able, because of virus, to attend his funeral. The ironic thing is that he was a retired preacher.
Now if you need cabinets built it's all good. We know corona is not allowed to spread in the work place.

Really sorry for your loss J. May he RIP

Yup

While we are comparing this to taking guns. How about we also compare this to guns in the sense that if you don't adhere to the guidelines and run around thinking the world revolves around you and you alone? That that action by you would be the same as running around with your gun shooting people!

Also

We wouldn't need such guidelines if just half of us had some coming sense and a little respect for others and their well being!

He was referring to actually giving up your rights! Need to put that quote back in context.

And let's says this is as bad as what they are saying.

The economic trouble we are in right now for trying to stop this with some guidelines will be far less than what will it be if we do nothing and let it run its course and/or take haphazardly.

The stuff that caused the great depression went on ten years! And may not have stopped if it weren't for the war!

It’s your right to not go to work. Nobody is forcing you!

Religious folks in general, but especially Christians, face a unique dilemma with this situation...

The new testament makes it quite plain that Christians are to submit themselves to the laws and leaders of the land.

Romans 13: 1-7

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

Even Jesus himself alluded to it in Luke 20:25 He said to them, "Then render the things to ceasar that are ceasar's..."

But he also qualified by ending with... "and to God the things that are God's..."

And Acts 5:29 also references this... "But Peter and the apostles answered, We must obey God rather than men."

We must obey our leaders and laws. But what is the supreme law of the land? The very law that binds our president and legislature? What is the framework that they operate on?

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. It has the final say on whether or not something is lawful or unlawful.

So either the Constitution is the supreme law of our land. Or it isn't.

You either have inalienable rights... Or you don't. If you don't, your rights are subject to the whims of "ceasar" as he sees fit.

If you're willing to set aside constitutional rights because "times are bad" or "this is different" then that means the Constitution never really meant what it said to begin with and we should just dispense with it and be done.

And if you identify as a Christian in any way, shape, or form and you choose to call out someone for defying the mandate to stop attending services, you need to do some studying. Plain and simple.

Mike

I’ll play...where in the Bible does it say to kill? Let’s say everyone in church is virus free except you, but you don’t show any signs, yet you infect the entire congregation and everyone else dies...you just killed everyone there. Show me in the Bible where God said that’s acceptable.

My God gave me common sense...

Your anology is flawed. It's never okay to go around shooting people. It wasn't okay last month,and it's still illegal this month,and there is no constitutional right to shoot to go around shooting people. A better anology would be last month you could carry a concealed weapon, but this month your governor declares a national emergency and issues an order that nobody can carry a gun outside their house. You have a constitutional right to bear arms, would you allow your governor to declare through royal decree that you can't carry a gun for the next two weeks?

If not, why would you let a government tell you that you can't worship as you please in a manner that was fine a month ago?

I appreciate the work and the overtime here lately has been nice. I don't mind helping to float the economy for y'all folks who can hunker down. Just trying to point out if the virus is so bad why are we allowed to assemble to work, yet not allowed to assemble to worship together or bury our dead. I expect that answer lies in my second sentence. I guess Buckeye fans can't comprehend that well.

Thank you 22. I got a sneaky feeling he's walking on Glory side now.

And what if monkeys fly out of your butt? Are you really willing to suspend the Constitution based on what-if's?

Mike

Mike, what is being suspended? Do you not believe in what has been shown, Congress, SCOTUS etc.

So because SCOTUS made a decision that makes it OK?

How about Dred Scott, Buck vs Bell, Plessy vs Ferguson, etc...? Were those all sound decisions by SCOTUS?

Mike

As far as what's being suspended? I honestly don't follow any of this much. But there are plenty on here cheering on a suspension of constitutional rights.

Mike

I asked where in the Bible it states it ok to kill your fellow man and you come up with monkeys? Or did your God not instill you with common sense? Do you climb trees during a tornado? Fish on the lake during a lightening storm? Walk in front of a semi on the interstate?
No, of course not. Why? Because you wouldn’t put yourself in danger or those around you in danger. It’s sad that the government has to step in and demand common sense. A good preacher/pastor/priest/etc would tell his congregation we are going to hold off on services or maybe we will broadcast over the Internet. I have no respect for anyone that puts unwilling/common senseless people in harms way.

Those were the law of the land until overturned weren't they? I'm not saying I agree with all this and quite frankly some things don't add up. However, The law is the law and nothing that I can see is infringing on our rights according to it. Doesn't mean it's great, but just.

I CHOOSE to avoid congregating as a matter of conscience and good judgement.

If your faith is to be dictated by "common sense" alone... Then give it up.

Mike

Most conscience and good judgement is just common sense...

Catch, the point was that SCOTUS has made horribly wrong decisions plenty of times. Just pointing to them and saying, "Well SCOTUS says it's OK..." doesn't make it right any day of the week.

We've all sat on here and griped about the Miller decision a billion times.

The Constitution says what it says. Or it doesn't.

Mike

If you don't wanna go to church and risk infection... Then don't. But don't use God or government as a weapon to comfort your fears.

Mike

I get ya Mike, I do. I agree with you, I'm just pointing out the Law. It's there and all of the Constitution has been watered down imo since the ink dried. But it's there.

Brian, you bring up an interesting subject about economic damage that provides a good example of unexpected and unintended consequences.

I will start with a bold but provable statement. The Black Plague did not plunge Europe into the Dark Ages, it sparked the Renaissance. Instead of the expected destruction caused by loosing half the population, the surviving serf had increased wealth (inherited from deceased relatives) and greater bargaining power (less serf for the same number of jobs). This was a key component of breaking the feudal system.

If we set the very real and important human component aside, and look at the current crisis from a cold, strictly economic point of view allowing Covid to run its course would most likely be beneficial. Again, this is from a strictly economic point of view. Current estimates put the potential cost at 2 million people. The cold, hard, brutal truth is that this is 2 million less workers for a fixed number of jobs = wages go up. 2 million less workers for jobs that still have to be done sparks innovation in industry and technology to cover the labor shortage. Over 2 million survivors will see an overnight increase in net worth due to inheritance. There are benefits to Social Security as well.

Since you mentioned the Great Depression, I recently learned there is at least one study that indicated the Great Depression had a positive impact on life expectancy. I was extremely surprised to learn this and it is the exact opposite to what I would expect. It is an interesting read and appears to be a very comprehensive study. The only real thing I can grab onto to question its findings is that it collected data only from urban areas. As far as I am aware, there was no pandemic element to starting the Great Depression. If I am wrong on this, please let me know.

Before any of you accuse me of anything, re-read my comments above. I am not suggesting anything. I am responding to a narrow question thru the very narrow lense of economic impact. Your moral argument against this approach are still valid and I agree with many of them.

I am curious. How many on here are aware that the government has absolutely no obligation to protect any given free citizen?

No offense on my part.

It's also interesting to note that studies have shown that FDR and the government's "solutions" prolonged the Depression. I've seen it argued both ways.

Mike

Another landmark SCOTUS decision.

Mike

You have to look at it sideways, backwards and squinting, but in the grand scheme of things; I think they got that one right. It is an affirmation of individual responsibility and self sufficiency. In short, you are responsible for you.

Applied to the current situation and added to what I learned on this thread, there is a strong chance it might already be a legal option to board sick people up in their homes and leave them die of virus or starvation.

Sorry Scott, I wasn't very clear in my response earlier... I should've said yes I agree.

Mike

Rule 1: Continuity of government is #1 priority of government. If it comes to it they will do whatever is necessary to see to that.

Bingo. All other considerations are secondary.

Mike

So how many on here really believe that the government will give back what they have taken.

Virgil we need government to force us into taking care of ourselves. We are not capable of weighing risk and deciding for ourselves. Why would we ever want government to recognize our rights and protect them? That isnt the job of our government . The job of the government is to protect us from ourselves. Be our parent. Freedom is just to scary. Government has a duty to provide for the general welfare.

Can you imagine what would happen if people were allowed to be armed? We all know its our right to be armed but how many people would handle firearms irresponsibly and cause accidents? Some people would even use them to prey on others. Time to put a stop to it.

What if people were allowed to say anything they wanted? What if they were allowed to speak badly about those in political office? It quite possibly could undermine what they are trying to do in order to make our lives and our families safer. No, we can't allow that.

I have to say that personal liberty is just to frightening to contemplate. It must be banned and banned now in order that no body ever dies ever again.

Morning y'all.
Hadn't been on TMan in a couple days. Reading this thread, I see it still has legs and that many of you may in fact agree with each other, under the surface, on many points.

All I know is we are blessed to live where we live.
All of us are top 1% of the richest in the world, or that has ever been, and that makes the comforts of this life pretty easy to take for granted. I know I'm often guilty of that.

MJ

Just read a report that the Pastor of that church says he was sorry he did the service since he realized his service has been proven to have spread the virus and infected some of the people who attended. He doesn't plan to have any more services.

I wish there was a like app on Trapperman.com so we could hit like or nay similar to face book.

Yes, I'd say he did it more out of "they aren't gonna tell me what I can and cannot do" than the chance for risk.

Trapper7, I love your byline

It’s your right to not go to work. Nobody is forcing you![/quote]
I appreciate the work and the overtime here lately has been nice. I don't mind helping to float the economy for y'all folks who can hunker down. Just trying to point out if the virus is so bad why are we allowed to assemble to work, yet not allowed to assemble to worship together or bury our dead. I expect that answer lies in my second sentence. I guess Buckeye fans can't comprehend that well. [/quote]

Well I'd say working at your cabinet shop and having a church service where people are shoulder to shoulder throwing out spit are worlds apart? But I fully expect you to disagree with that statement.I'd also say some
business owners are putting their greed above health and safety, in our state I'd have to think that'd be a non essential business that shouldn't be open. I closed mine immediately, no amount of lost income is worth my
extended work family or families health and well being but I have the ability to use common sense.

So Bass10 you don't believe church goers don't have common sense to initiate social distance guidelines only businesses have that capability?

This is why, constitutional or not, common sense should overrule the constitution. He admitted his foolishness has spread the virus.

How about a church service in someone's home with 12 people sitting on couches, and no spit being thrown? That'll also get you arrested in some places.

Really?!?!? Who's common sense? Should "common-sense" gun control laws overrule the constitution?

Did you see the video of that service, I'd say no they didn't. If what I'm hearing is true that someone that went to that service has now tested positive I'd say no?

Never heard of anyone getting arrested for that, so heresay?

I miss going to church since our pastor and board felt all services should be temporarily shut down for now. Social distance would be difficult, practically impossible, more so in a church than a business setting in most cases.

It has been proven that this Florida pastor had spread the virus because of his determination to have services regardless of the consequences. Now, he realizes what a poor decision it was. Thanks to him, anyone coming in contact with anyone who attend his service unknowingly are susceptible to becoming infected with the virus. Very unfair to those who have been cautious in their efforts of not spreading or getting infected.

Never said anyone has been arrested for it yet, only that it could get you arrested. 40 miles north of me in Lincoln ne, there are no gatherings allowed of any kind of more than 10 people, including religious gatherings. If you're caught, first someone from the health department will come and try to talk to you, and if you refuse, then police will show up and ticket or arrest you. So yes, I absolutely could get arrested there for holding a church service in my home with 12 people present.. Here is the link directly to the city government's website.

Directly from the site..."Gatherings for any reason of more than 10 people in single spaces".

Not sure why you keep comparing this to guns. The laws and such are not wrote the same. I can see certain pols taking advantage and pushing their own agenda's, but guns are a completely different animal, law wise.

I can't believe you're even saying this! The pastor of the church admitted his service was proven to spread the virus. That's why he said the service was a mistake and he won't make that same mistake again. There is a good chance innocent people are going contract the virus because of this church service. So, for these newly infected people it's just tough luck???

There's a huge difference in "common sense" gun laws versus a deadly virus.

Whos common sense when it comes to gun laws, ours or David Hoggs?

No, no difference at all. Americans can not be trusted to use common sense. The fact that some people are still going to church proves it. The fact that some people are committing crimes with firearms proves it. Media is telling lies and citizens are bad mouthing duly elected politicians. The madness must stop. Time for more proclamations. Starting with sending state police and national guard door to door to confiscate guns and arrest anybody who continues to pose a threat to public safety.

My argument is not whether the Florida pastors decision to hold regular services was wise or not but rather if it is the place of .gov to suspend a right given by God. For the record I don't think it was a wise decision. For a church to meet now social distanceing guide lines should be followed or have meetings such as loosegoose has at his house.

I agree with you, Danny. But, I'm referring to most normal Americans. The average, normal person in America will see there is a difference in risk in common sense gun laws that differs from the inadvertent spreading of a deadly virus where large numbers of people congregate. BTW, I agree with everyone who feels gun shops should be able to stay open. It should be up to each individual gun shop owner.

I agree with everyone that says the pastor is an idiot for holding church.
That said, that is completely beside the point.

I just listened to a infectious disease nurse on a broadcast. She stated the death numbers are being manipulated Even though someone has the virus at the time of death, it can not be determined that it was the virus that killed them. There may have been multiple morbidity factors involved in their medical history. The only way the tell what caused the death is an autopsy.

JStaton:

I agree with you. There are safer alternatives than what this pastor did. Our church is doing an online service. A handful of people meeting at someone's house would be better than an entire church population meeting at a regular service.

If they would show how many die a day from the flu, daily, we'd be shut down every winter.

Anyone STILL comparing this to the flu isn't paying attention. It's clear the doctors/ researchers and those in charge are. Good thing a bunch of paranoid/Govt conspiracy trappers aren't calling the shot right now.

Still 8 weeks till peak in most of the country....and it's doubling itself nationwide every 4 days.

It'll be real interesting to see how long some hold onto the "It's no big deal" mentality. My guess is we'll all lose people we know well before this is over (that does't happen with the flu). Sure hope the experts are wrong on this one.

Dead is dead Calvin, could we save tens of thousands a year of we do what we're doing now? I bet so.

I too believe this is easier to contract, but it is weaker in the fact it's been killing mostly elderly, and even those have a pre existing condition. Regular flu kills some pretty healthy people.

79,000 died the 17-18 flu season.

You didn't hear a peep about it, wonder why?

Im wondering the same thing

Not sure who you've been following on that's simply not the case anymore. 36 doctors in Italy dead. Plenty now in their 30s and 40s here. Healthy people. Yes, some have "pre existing" conditions but just mild asthma or sleep apnea qualifies for that.

Once doc says its over 100 times more contagious that the flu.

Another thinks we will be out of hospital beds by Easter.

I don't listen to news casters on what this thing is. I follow a few docs working the Covid Units. Seems the real experts have a different viewpoint.

This has the potential to be a LOT higher than that. The flu has never totally exhausted the medical profession. Right now most hospitals here have totally ceased all non life threatening surgeries in an attempt to get ready for whats they know is coming a month or so down the road.

Make no mistake....this thing hasn't even taken hold in most parts of the country yet. It's just starting.

Docs at Mayo have canceled their vacations through August. They know this is just the start of things.

And the CDC posts 61,000 deaths associated with the flu in the 17-18 season...Not 79k Not that it matters. Still a bunch.

Calvin, look up global flu deaths. Numbers range from 250,000 to as high as650,00 yearly. This is still below 60,000 worldwide.

Correct....This is STILL. It's JUST getting started here. And why the precautions. And nobody believes China's numbers.

Do you think regular flu has a steady death rate? I believe it's the same as this, starts out with a few and as it spreads it peaks at some point.

I agree with ya, the peak hasn't been reached yet. The earlier countries to get this it has tho, if you look at their numbers. Where we'll end up death wise is hard to tell, same as if we quarantined every flu season how low we could keep that number.

Again, 8 weeks out from anticipated peak here. It's doubling every 4 days. That estimates 1.5 million cases by Easter. On average, 20% of cases need to be hospitalized. We simply don't have that many beds....and why the rush to flatten this curve. This is attempt to flatten the curve isn't something thought up by the govt....its in response to what the medical field anticipating.

It's the medical community that's pushing these measures. The govt's just assists in implementing it.

Be angry if you want but at least be angry at the appropriate group.

Do you really thing Trump wants everyone to be out of work right now? C mon.

I could be all wet, I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong, but I look at it this way....

Every time a new strain hits us, we freak out. Not normally as bad as this time but it's always worse than any strain we've ever seen.
Then it passes and until next flu season we have a vaccine for it and people calm down.

Such is life with travel we have now.

I'm not angry?

I thought we were just talking about this?

I agree that most people never took the flu seriously enough. And I for one didn't realize the deaths from the flu were as high as they are.

My mistake, Hippie. I'm glad you're not angry. It's just a dialog. And it's every changing....especially recently.

Your cool here Calvin, maybe it's the way I talk but no hard feelings at all. Just giving a different perspective is all.

You'll know if I get mad ! Lol

Yes they do but if your read it they say, preliminary results. Go to the next season and its revised to 79,000.

I keep hearing that but I’ve asked no less than 10 people if they know anyone that has died from the flu and to a t not one has, so in my 54 years I know nobody that has. I already know 2 from Covid 19.

As China has been caught lying about the real numbers of deaths there, it is not a correct analysis to quote a figure of 60,000, especially since China just shut their entire nations down again as this virus erupted again. They discovered a shedder who had the virus after almost two and a half months.
I understand the fears of people not wanting this biological weapon to be worse than the flu and I understand that Rush LImbaugh did a great disservice to people on the right in telling them that this is the common cold. He has since changed his analysis.

This Corona has been infecting people for barely 4 months, and has only been regional. To compare it to regular flu in an entire flu season is again, comparing apples to oranges. Debating these points from talk radio propaganda is not a correct examination of the data. This virus is not behaving according to fake Chinese data. This virus is not acting as the CDC said it would. It is in fact doing the exact opposite in it is infecting the demographic of 20 to 50 year olds overwhelming, and not the 70 plus year olds. Almost every state has a Corona website, I suggest everyone interested to visit those sites and read the data. I was just on the Minnesota site, and it has been averaging 50 to 70 cases a day for weeks. The last two days have shown a slight drop. If this continues, Minnesota may have gone past the plateau. The fact is though the first surge will not have passed until Easter. We will not know until May 1st, if areas of the United States have passed the infection peak. There still will be shedders moving around though, and the isolation will have to continue or the United States will erupt again. I state that, as there are still waves coming in this pandemic. This has mainly been located in the Chinese squatter communities and in Caucasians who went out and caught the virus. America has not even begun in the two demographics in which the real problems are in Latino and Indian. Mexico is about to erupt in this virus, and this virus has scorched Spain.

The President and the Governors have done a very good job in blunting this. The people have been stupid in vacation groups and Spring Break. A month ago, most people on here were dismissing this virus, and they were wrong. More are taking this serious, but the fact is, that preparing for the worst case is better than stating time and again that something is worse than Corona, when if the flawed Chinese data is removed, there is running in current numbers worldwide a 20+ percent death rate. Remember in this that there are 8 known strains of this virus which were released, and at last check 40 mutations worldwide.

For the people who have this virus, for the families who have suffered in deaths, the numbers do not matter, as they are the ones harmed by this virus, and they do not care what the flu does or does not do. It is like claiming being struck by lightning is not as bad as dying by cancer, due to the numbers.

Each of us is responsible to not harm others. Our rights end where the other person's right to life begins. That means distancing, washing your hands and not being a problem for the rest of society by being stupid. I will use Kathy Griffin as an example. She knew a pandemic was taking place, went to Mexico, caught diarrhea, came back to California, took a hospital bed from someone who needed it, and then started whining about the doctor would not test her for Corona and Trump was a liar. Each of us has to not make mistakes in being in an accident or getting sick, as those beds are needed for Corona patients. This is bigger than a pastor lying to people and holding a service endangering deluded people that they won't get the virus in a church.
Just remember in this, that if you give this virus to someone in a pandemic, and they die or end up with damaged lungs, some lawyer after this is done with is going to sue you for all you have, as all of that testing going on is tracking people as spreaders.

This virus is a problem for America and the world. Debating the unknown in what the end death toll is, is not scientific. The real numbers are on March 12th, there were 4981 deaths in the world "reported". As of April 2nd, as this moved into the west where real data was reported, there were 53,176 dead. In other words, almost 48,000 people died in 2 weeks. Add two more weeks and that is 96,000 dead, add May and it will be 192,000 dead for a partial flu season. Those numbers begin approaching what Dr. Fauci is advising the President on, but again those are global numbers, and again, South and Latin America have not begun their peak.

Watch the data and track it like a trapline. It will reveal what this creature is in Coronavirus in the facts.


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Nice to know Hippie.

Another point of the old age deaths in Italy were due to the lack of beds (and they reportedly had more beds per capita that here in the U.S). Due to that, they cut off the availability of a bed to anyone over 80 yrs old...so of course that became the statistical bracket that died far more than the under 80 yr old population. I know doctors here are very concerned that they may have to make a similar age limit cutoff if these numbers keep doubling like they are.

.......this not the flu! it needs to be slowed or contained now!

[/quote]
Never said anyone has been arrested for it yet, only that it could get you arrested. 40 miles north of me in Lincoln ne, there are no gatherings allowed of any kind of more than 10 people, including religious gatherings. If you're caught, first someone from the health department will come and try to talk to you, and if you refuse, then police will show up and ticket or arrest you. So yes, I absolutely could get arrested there for holding a church service in my home with 12 people present.. Here is the link directly to the city government's website.

Directly from the site..."Gatherings for any reason of more than 10 people in single spaces".[/quote]


Then follow some simple guidelines and invite 10 instead of being a right fighting rebel till we get through this,smh

homeless people and prisoners

Hippee-in PA avg. Deaths/day is ~370. Past wk avg is 12 for chink virus. Whats the big deal???

I
My wife and daughter worked in a nursing home, so it wouldn't be fair if I answered of know flu deaths.

I'll just say, it happens alot.

California is housing all their homeless in hotels now. They are dying also. Several prisons are getting over ran with it. Is that the canary you are watching because it is happening. The media will never report on it as you should know. LLL

How many of those are flu deaths, if ya know?

where is your information coming from Larry?

Do a google search danny. It's all over. Just because you don't look don't mean it is not happening.

.......582 dead in new York in the last 24 hours from covid-19

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ca...to-combat-covid-19-spread-among-homeless

https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/index.jsp

75 inmates so far out of more than 200,000

39 guards. I'm not sure how many guards they have.I thought maybe you had information nobody else did

I just saw something where N.O. Mayor Cantrell threw guns into the mix.

Illegal to sell or "transport" weapons. SAF threatened to sue if she doesn't drop it.

I can't link but someone should be able to.

Homeless people are largely drug addicts. Ethanol, methamphetamine, heroin or other opiates, crack, and nicotine, are all real popular pastimes. They are not going to stay put. Add in the mentally ill just for fun. They will be selling the copper wiring, sinks doors beds tvs or anything else they can trade for their drug of choice. They are still going to be interacting with each other. I don't see how the authorities can even round them all up let alone contain them in hotels and school gyms or whatever.


So yep. I say when they start drop dropping like wasps hit with carb cleaner I will have a little more concern.

Here is one of the news articles about the homeless. It probably varies widely from city to city at this point. In LA, the number of confirmed coronavirus cases doubled overnight to a total of nine cases as of yesterday morning. Don't know what it is today.

https://www.breitbart.com/health/20...meless-and-staffer-at-temporary-shelter/

I don't know anyone who knows anyone whose even had the virus, much less died from it.

How about the government not worry about what goes on in the privacy of my own home, especially when what's going on was perfectly legal a month ago, was made illegal by official proclamation instead of a legislative process, and involves nothing more than people sitting around talking and eating?

..........goose your rants over president trump in his address to the nation yesterday said that this does not apply to families over 10 in there own homes!!! let go!

..........goose your rants over president trump in his address to the nation yesterday said that this does not apply to families over 10 in there own homes!!! let go!
[/quote]

It's not just my family, it's one other family and one single guy. In any case, Nebraska's order has nothing to do with what the president says, the directed health measures here are ordered by the governor. I'd assume that you're right, if it was just my family and we had 10 people, then of course the DHM wouldn't apply, that's only logical. But it most certainly would apply to families getting together for a church service in someone's private residence.

I'll delete that, that guys not worth the time.

120 this yr. Out of ~130,000 cases

.....you never been one to debate when it comes to fact....run and hide as usual

120 this yr. Out of ~130,000 cases about 1.5 deaths/day

US- reg flu 22million cases with over 12,000 deaths

How about the government not worry about what goes on in the privacy of my own home, especially when what's going on was perfectly legal a month ago, was made illegal by official proclamation instead of a legislative process, and involves nothing more than people sitting around talking and eating?[/quote]

Nobody that invites 20 people in their house is gonna get arrested, get over it. Invite 50 of the highest risks for all I care cause by golly it’s your right!

This is going to sound... callous... But it isn't meant to.

Their deaths don't surprise me.

Ever spend time around doctors and nurses... especially ER residents? They're very good about practicing universal precautions to prevent spread of disease... But they tend to be some of the unhealthiest people I know. Not saying it's their fault. The rigors of their profession leave little time for self care. They work brutally long hours, get little rest, and survive on caffeinated beverages and junk food.

And it's the young folks fresh out of med school who are at the bottom of the totem pole grinding out a paycheck as a resident.

And I've watched a lot of nurses grab a diet coke, honey bun, and a cigarette for their break... If they get one.

So no, I'm not surprised that we throw young "healthy" people into the grinder and lose some. The system we have guarantees it's going to happen.

Mike

Nobody that invites 20 people in their house is gonna get arrested, get over it. Invite 50 of the highest risks for all I care cause by golly it’s your right![/quote]
No. I correct. No gatherings over 10 people, period, including private residences. That's why birthday parties and such are getting broken up by police.

I dont think it is possible to know how many homeless people are even symptomatic. When they die though they need picked up. That will be a major news story when/if it happens en masse.

Thanks for our flu numbers Grousewit.

Looks like they might be low this year?

Your right Mike, especially the EMT’s. It seems like almost everyone of them smoke and their favorite restaurant is the gas station. I’m not knocking them i just find it interesting because they know what their doing to themselves.

Sure they know what they're doing... But when you deal with death and the worst aspects of humanity on a daily basis you get a little jaded... nihlistic even.

The same goes for anyone in a high stress/high risk field... Cancer is not high on the list of worries for an infantryman.

Mike

I'll give you my thoughts on this corona/covid 19 no-gatherings situation. First, the church I pastor is NOT having group services right now. Texting & phone calls to stay in touch & Facebook Live & Youtube videos for service. I feel it is wise & prudent in the face of a contagious "pandemic" to avoid contact as much as possible. I do not like doing it this way but feel it is best, at least in the short term. If this drags on for months, I may feel differently. It is not going to be a pleasant thing to do "online Easter" but such is the case. Even if I did not feel this way, the organization I am with has mandated no groups of more than 10 at the church facility so it would be end of normal services anyway. Online it is.
In a war zone the initial reaction of people is to hunker down and try to avoid the melee. Eventually though those people develop a "life has to go on" attitude and return to fields & work places to do the best they can. The cow needs milking and the field needs planting and such.

That being said, I happen to agree with Danny C. that it is not the governments place to set aside the constitution. If you don't want to be around people then stay away. If someone invades your space, move or have them back off. I have had to do this before covid-19. What did you do before this? Hug your neighbor with the flu? Leave work sick and head straight to the grocery store to share the germs? My 88 year old mother doesn't need ANY disease/sickness and I'd be very upset if someone shared anything with her, Corona or otherwise. This pandemic response sets a very dangerous precedent and makes me very uneasy.

I saw this poem many years ago when I was a kid, but I have never forgotten it. It sums up my attitude about life:
God gave us two ends,
One to sit on,
One to think with.
Our future depends on which one we use.
Heads we win, tails we lose.

Your thoughts are free to vary. Live blessed and stay safe.

Preacherman Les,

Greetings from the state of Texas brother!
This has been an interesting thread to follow. Lots of input. Lots of thoughts. Lots of concern from some. Not much from others.

Answers seem most often to be sought from;
A. Scientists
B. Government
C. God

I would submit for consideration that any of these answers requires faith. Faith? Yep. Faith.

Some might say that answer C would require faith, but perhaps not A, or B, but I submit all require faith. And that's why some are so firm in their answer, whether it's A, B, or C. Or a mixture of them.
When someone "believes" (has faith) in B (government) you discount their faith, (not their opinion) when you say, "you are wrong."

Same with A; Science. A belief in science is really a faith? How so?
Well, all scientists are effected by their presupposition system. But science is logic you say! Observable and repeatable! No. Logic is skewed by one's presupposition system and no-one has ever been able to prove the validity of logic. It's a faith system at it's core. And that's ok. We all could use more logic.
Besides, scientists (I'm trained in that academia) realize that an absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. At least honest scientists admit that and not all scientists are honest.

So here we are, with faith placed here or there, as best we all can figure, as a pathogen motors the globe. I don't call someone's faith in A,B, C or a mixture good, bad, wrong, or right. It's just their faith statement. We all have one whether we say so or not.

I'll place faith in He that made creation in the first place and I figure He's got it all right where He wants it.
Blessings y'all! Stay safe!
Mark

But apparently you believe that you have a right to infect people with a deadly disease.

Jarhead

Um.....when did I say that? Or are you just assuming something?

I am not assuming anything since you claim the right to gather groups in your home after your wife has visited a Corona infected woman. Somehow it doesn't occur to you how irresponsible that is. This virus Is highly contagious but in your arrogance you don't care. I don't know why I bother to continue to discuss this since I consider your position to be entirely without merit.

Jarhead

Who said I don't care that the virus is highly contagious? Of course I care. I'm not monster that hopes to kill old people. We just care MORE that someone new in their faith, who feels like the church is full of hypocrites that act just like the rest of the world gets visited when they lose their job and they feel like no one else from church will come around them (when she's not suspected of being infected), and we care MORE that they have groceries to eat, when they have a kid and a new place and no cell phone and no job. (And groceries were just dropped off on the front porch and a short conversation went on while my wife stood on the porch and the woman stood inside behind the closed glass door.)

It's just a matter of priorities. Yes, we're willing to put our health and maybe even other people's health, at risk, for what we believe our faith teaches. You may not feel that way, to each their own.

100%. Thats what the "experts" are saying about who can expect to be exposed. 80% have mild symptoms. The ventilators are causing a lot of lung damage. There are other options than a ventilator but the CDC is pushing them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1540438/




Spain passed Italy and they are at 285 deaths per million. Again 10,000 is one percent. We are at 33 now.

Could same not be said for a crackhead with a gun sitting in the parking lot looking for easy cash?

We should at the very least take the gun away.

They’re absolutely certain nobody shook hands or opened the same door and the. Touched their face or rubbed an eye?

All this talk about "rights" got me to thinking. I don't ever remember Jesus Christ demanding his rights. Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in civil rights. Civics (the science of government) is separate from faith practically speaking.
Jesus came to serve, part of serving people is not making them sick. I think that pastor is off base in at least some of his views, I can't really see Jesus doing what that pastor did.

He did load his buddies up in a boat when a terrible storm was coming .

We figure out whether this is unconstitutional yet?

Jesus touched lepers and dead people and other sick people which was radical in his day both because it made him ceremonially unclean according to Jewish law, and also because it was just gross to touch sick and dead people since it could spread diseases and such, and there was no real medicine back then. Jesus, being not only fully God, but also fully man, was just as susceptible to disease as anybody else, and still made the effort to minister to those people.

^^^^^^
Interesting point (Jesus being susceptible to disease), most of the time we dwell on Jesus's Divinity and don't really think too much about the other aspect of Jesus; his humanity.

hard to fathom

If Jesus could heal people by touch or words, I don't see how he was fully susceptible to disease.

Keith

Wonder why no Muslims were arrested in FLA.? They are still having "school" at the Muslim center in Overland Park KS and I do not think the Muslims in FLA ever shut down their meetings, even after the christian preacher was charged with a crime.

I suspect it is because law enforcement and politicians were aware that Muslims would get violent if told they no longer had a recognized right to gather peacefully.

Jesus suffered various human sufferings being fully man along with fully God. He got hungry, he got tired, he got thirsty, he felt pain, he died. The Bible doesn't record him getting sick, but it's reasonable to believe that he was at least capable of getting sick.

Jesus knew his limits as a man and chose not to jump off any mountains. He had power to resist the devil and set him in his place behind Him. Jesus came with a purpose to save mankind. Had the Kung Flu killed him he would not have been able to do His work on the cross. He did not have His life taken from Him but gave it freely. He chose to give it in the open light on a hill and not have it taken from Him in a rat infested dark corner some where. So in one since he did have resistance to any disease the devil threw at Him, thus resist the devil and he will flee.

They should have lock the doors and kept them inside for 15 days or so. JMO

I thought the Bible instructs us to flee from evil?

Exactly, and thats why I am not going into any big crowds, I'm not Jesus nor do I in my self have the power to make a puppet out of the devil. Some grand standing preacher maybe makes puppets out of his congregation. Later if not sooner God will judge the congregation. Surely the sheep know their Masters voice, but I have raised sheep and they will follow a goat right past the executioner.

If Jesus had got the flu and died off it wouldn't have made for nearly as interesting of a story. Not a lot of people would have lined up behind someone that claimed to be the son of God and then got knocked off by the sniffles. On the same note it makes not much sense to read that Jesus was the only "human" to lead a sinless life and then somehow believe he was able to do that without divine intervention. If he had done it wholly as a "human" without any help from daddy then it would be something that could be duplicated today.

The state of Florida and the county that enforced this ban have determined that this action was most likely unconstitutional.

The church had prepared a federal lawsuit against the county that enforced the ban. Shortly before the suit was filed the county voted to overturn the church ban. They went even further when they decided that any future guidance the county may issue will be recommendations and not enforceable. Perhaps the timing is a coincidence.

The lawsuit has been put on hold. The church is still demanding retraction of certain statements, written guarantees, and charges being dropped. I suspect they will get all of these things because the county and the state are in cover your butt mode.

The state of Florida has also reversed course on this. Religious services is now essential. To take it a step further, the state of Florida amended the original order to prohibit local government from passing more restrictive restrictions. In short, the state is trying to limit the possibility of local restrictions rubbing off at the state level.

Put all of this together and it becomes pretty evident, the lawmakers who wrote this ban think it is most likely unconstitutional. When faced with a meaningful, legal challenge; they folded immediately. The stakes are high and legal ruling on this case would have far reaching implications. The most plausible explanation for the county and states actions is that the government's attorneys are telling them this not likely to be in the state's favor. The government does not run from fights it thinks it can win.

Here is a link for more details. It appears to be from the church's legal counsel.
https://www.lc.org/newsroom/details...ses-and-recognizes-churches-as-essential

Too bad it didn't go to court.

I said earlier that was the reason they opened gun stores back up. Wasn't applied correctly by picking and choosing what they close.

If they decided to fight it and win they win nothing and costs the state a minimum $100k, if they lost probably have to pay additional for the morons attorney fees! Not worth the fight either way, imo.

Yup!

Federal govt from what I understand still has only set forth "guidelines". Nothing official to date I do believe. All these executive orders are coming from govenors. From what I can see there is no athority given to govenors to do what they are doing.

Lol

Very tricky stuff!

Saw where DNR was requesting pictures of people fishing etc... Didn't understand that