Question for you Adam and Eve believers

Homo Erectus are considered the forerunners of us humans and from the information I read, they could reason and speak although probably very archaic. According to the Bible Adam and Eve are the first humans on earth. Therefore, wouldn’t Adam and Eve have to look like early man Homo Erectus instead of modern day humans and have Homo Erectus mental functioning. If God originally made us in his image, then God would have to look like early man. If you don’t believe Homo Erectus existed let’s go with a later stage of advanced man that could reason better like the Neanderthal man.

Is this the side effect of being quarantined for too long?

Wvsmx
XX xx mink n

Religious people don't believe in evolution so in the mind there was no early human types.

Your second question first. The bible clearly teaches that God does not "look" like us in a physical sense. "Image" refers to creativity, self awareness, willfulness, etc.

Your first question. There is no reason that homo erectus is not simply just another primate; not necessarily of our human race.

I believe that adam and eve were people like us with their language and skin color. You have to realize that adam and even was created before the fall and made perfect. I would highly suggest reading genesis chapters 1 and two.

God said it was good. In our finite minds we only have the experience of what you and i see today and how we relate to it. But for God, it was completely perfect, flawlessly good. Unstained, no imperfections. I think that is the hardest thing for our mind to wrap around because we have never seen that. God is holy and can never lie - God's character assures we trust in His declaration. "I am that I am". Can you wrap your mind around that simple mind exploding view of God? Wow!

It was a perfect undiluted world not affected by sin. Genesis 3:17 ...." Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life" He said to the woman that he will sharply increase the pain of childbirth...

What science does today is recreate in their best knowledge what man MIGHT act like, SPEAK like, LOOK like.. just like the dinosaurs.. and everything else. There is only so much evidence, some make it crooked for their OWN glory and prestidge in research rather its true or not.

God is also a God of order, adam and eve had language....responsibilties...relationship with God.. not a retarded half brain individual that science tries to convince that we once were.

I would suggest you don't speak for other people, particularly on a subject you apparently don't know much, if anything about.

Maybe.

Sorry for the sideways picture, tried it twice.

Well said

Advice taken, not another word from me. I will let the pros continue.

Homo Erectus could very well be Cain’s people. Their appearance could be the result of God’s marking of him because of his fear of being killed after he killed his brother. Homo Erectus would be pretty scary if all you had was a club. lol

Adam and Eve were first. I don’t recall reading God quit creating after he got them done. Maybe he made others?

He had to have made more with all the begotin that went on later
And if Eve was first, who was Lilith?

Cain and Able is one of my favorite stories. From the get go vegetarians are shown their true colors....inferior to meat eaters and violent and hostile towards others.

Lilith aint in the bible.....

I've mainly heard Christians either say one of three things when referring to other now extinct humanoids.

1- "I believe because of faith and I dont have an answer for everything". I am very satisfied with that answer
2- "I believe in evolution and also believe in God who made the first cells or set things in motion". I am very satisfied with that answer
3- "Scientist are tricking us, the earth is only 4,000 years old and evolution is a lie". I am typically satisfied with that answer enough because I no longer care to discuss anything regarding science with that person.

Adam and Eve were first. They had many children who had many children and so on. All people came from them. It's tough to say who ''early humans'' were. There are records in stone where human foot prints are fossilized right along with dinosaur tracks so I believe God made all of it but the time line is not millions and millions of years like evolutionists believe. There is also the story of the Tower of Babel.

Belief in Lilith is not a Christian belief. It is a Hebrew belief. She is also mythical person who roamed the earth for 4000 years. She is also reference by Isaiah as a demon from the wilderness. The name Lilith is associated with chaos and is now used as a mascot by feminists.

I have my own pet theory about Adam and Eve. Virtually every primitive society refers to themselves as”the people” and considers everybody else to be sub human. Perhaps Adam and Eve were simply the progenitors of the Hebrew people?! Not going to argue with anyone about this, just an idea to throw into the mix.

^^^^^
Donnersurvivor

As a believer (Christian) I am particularly perturbed by other believers espousing your Point "3".

I see no conflict between science and belief in Divine creation. The notion that "scientist are tricking us" is so silly. Do people actually think that physicists, geologists, botanists, zoologists, biologists, and chemists get together at some sort of convention and conspire to put together some sort of argument against God or Creation?

All those academic disciplines are so competitive if any scientist in any of those fields can prove the other wrong they love the opportunity to do it.
The idea that they that they would try to trick us is nonsense.

What skin color did they have?

Great question!

color of the earth.

From a Christian or Jewish viewpoint the earth is 5,000 years or so old. Because that's as far back as time goes to when man has any written history. From a physical standpoint, considering dinosaurs and evidence of early man, it's probably much older. Some bible historians who believe there were two floods seems to verify this. There is no evidence in man's earliest writings indicating dinosaurs during the 5,000 years the bible was written. The old testament makes no mention of dinosaurs.

Let me ask you this. In the region of the world where Jesus was born people are of brown/black skin and have very curly to nappy black hair. Most religions will show you a white man with brown hair on a cross. Is this because our Christian forefathers were bigots who openly and actively practiced racism? Do you believe Jesus was really black?

I have no idea why Jesus is typically pictured as a white dude with blue eyes. It's probably safe to assume that he looked pretty much like everyone else who lives/lived in that region.

(Who are these Christian forefathers you mention?)

So true and if you would liken yourself to an ape I have no problem with that , but there are many unanswered questions like why are apes at a standstill in evolution , yes man has evolved and really had a spurt in the last 250 years .Humans have came fro a line so long we cant begin to look that far back .And in my house we Credit God .

You cant picture your great Grandfather ,The pictures you look at are painted by people that picture him to look the way they look . He was in his earthly body probably brown with dark eyes and curly hair ,Idoubt African but then who knows . Romans ,Egyptians ,

I wouldn't recommend referring to middle easterner's as "black skinned" in person, they take great offense to that. There were few to none sub Saharan Africans in the middle east during the Roman era. Sephardi Jews have been a constant in the area since biblical times, Jesus almost certainly would of looked like a Sephardi Jew.

some theologians believe that Adam and Eve were just one account of Gods creation. That there were other peoples created in other parts of the earth . If Cain went into town and married after killing able whom did he marry ? His sister or another of Gods work that took place else where upon earth?

Hey you ever read the part about the drunk that had the covers thrown back and was turned black and was to be persecuted for the rest of his days? So NO everyone in that region wasn't black to begin with . HOPE I don't mess this up (my Momma would be ashamed) but think it was Noah. I believe Genesis chapter 9. His son Ham saw him naked .

Jesus Christ is depicted white because of who was in control of the middle east in 324ad when the bible was written. Rome

pictures of Jesus are sinful

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image


since lilith is a hebrew belief, and since christianity is reformed judaism, lilith should be taught in saturday school since sunday school is also sinful.

I thought they changed it to Adam and Steve.

Most art during medieval/Renaissance times was commissioned. You wanted a painting, you commissioned a painter... Sculpture? You hired a sculptor.

Most of them would use a model to pose for their work. Michelangelo had his boyfriend pose for his sculpture of David.

In simplest terms, you paint or sculpt what you know or what is available.

I do it in leatherwork, especially with hunting pouches for muzzleloading. There are very few surviving examples of hunting pouches from the 18th century... So most reproductions are based on what is available. But no one can say for sure that our reproductions represent everything they had back then.

Mike

Great Thread Trapper Grandpa! What was your motivation? Was it to try and prove someone’s religious beliefs wrong on Good Friday? Just curious.

To answer one part it says there were giants on the earth in those days and please where is the part about the man being turned black?

Only the United Methodists and maybe the Episcopalians I think.

I realize you are just trying to stir the pot; I'm okay with that, but why is "Sunday school" sinful?

jbyrd63,,,adam and eve are interesting. if you take the bible as its written, IN THE ORDER IN WHICH ITS WRITTEN, add nothing to it, subtract nothing from it, and make no assumptions about it, well, that's as close as we can get to the truth. God created for 6 days, rested on the seventh, and this ends genesis one. begin genesis 2, and God decides he needs a care taker for the garden, and creates adam, then later on, creates eve for adam. in the biblical order this was written, adam and eve were created AFTER the 7th day. go back to day 6, and God creates man, both male and female, and told them to till the earth. when God created the birds of the air, beasts of the plain, and fishes of the sea, it was all of these species and creations around the globe, not one species of fish in one pond, etc. same with man,,,,on the 6th day God created man and woman, and they would've been of all races, and all around the globe.

this belief doesn't deviate from the word of God, as this is how it is written. it also explains the different races, where cains wife came from, etc. it also states that God was well pleased with all the races, so equality between the races. just something to think about.

A graven image is curved from stone or wood.

Hey, jbyrd63
Quoting you;
"Hey you ever read the part about the drunk that had the covers thrown back and was turned black and was to be persecuted for the rest of his days? So NO everyone in that region wasn't black to begin with . HOPE I don't mess this up (my Momma would be ashamed) but think it was Noah. I believe Genesis chapter 9. His son Ham saw him naked . "

What?? turned black? What bible did you read that in?
Not really trying to pick on you, but a very common mistake that causes a whole lot of misunderstanding about the Bible is quoting it without reading it first.

Sorry carved the word is carved. lol

^^^^^^^
That is an interesting idea, and is one of a few different ideas that can help explain creation without deviating from the reason for the book of Genesis.

It is pretty obvious that God is still in the act of creating. He is the master artist/creator/craftsman. How many creative people do you know who have only created one masterpiece or work of art and then stopped? None.

Jesus looks the way he does because Europeans printed the first bibles and had to have an image there people could relate to.

Assuming the theorys are correct... but there's lots of room for error. I doubt Adam and Eve were Caucasian euro looking people, but they were certainly human.

Genesis 1 verse 28 where God say's be fruitful and multiply , and replenish the earth . The key word is replenish .

Nope. Just something I always wondered about. And I believe in God if you are wondering. Just don’t know about the Adam and Eve part. One time I asked a priest this question and he said it was a stupid question and he wasn’t going to answer it. I thought his answer was stupid since the reason he couldn’t answer it was because he couldn’t.

Yup, the RE part in particular.

Oh ye of little faith

I believe in the Archie Bunker theory: "I ani't no monkeys uncle".

And that Lilith character talked about earlier, didn't she end up marrying Frasier Crane?

What Waggler said!

What did the first humans look like?

Just look at all the variety of people in the world.

If you could look at them by only the frame of their bones.

Millions of different sizes, frames and dimensions.

All 100% human.

I would like to know why nearly all of the people alive today have on average 3% of their genome is Neanderthal?
A direct match.

Sub Saharan Africans have 0% Neanderthal DNA, they do have archaic DNA from another unidentified humanoid.

All Europeans and Asians have Neanderthal DNA.

They looked like southerners.

Probably dark skin. I remember reading that all other skin colors can only be derived from dark pigment skin.

Crap, I saw the title of this thread and thought it was going to be about that place you can order stuff from for the Mrs.
Jim

Grandpa

For me its KNOWING about the END not the BEGINNING!

Easy enough to check out!

Yep Donnersurvivor that’s what I was talking about.

That would be Victoria's.

No its Adam and eve's. Trust me.
Jim

No that's the libetards version !!! LOL

Do a search using the keywords "Cesare Borgia" and "image of Jesus"......that will get the ball rolling. Some would argue, he was not exactly a model Christian...

^^^^^^
Several "modern versions" actually come from older manuscripts than the KJV was translated from, and are therefore probably more reliable in their accuracy of conveying the original thought of a particular text.
I use the KJV on occasion, but there are better versions out there. There is nothing particularly holy about a certain version. Worshiping a book is form of idolatry.

LOL I've read it . BUT the big issue and why there are "discussions" is how people interpret it. King james version is just that . A version So many people worked on putting what we know as the Bible many different interpertations exist.
Below is a link and you will see I'm not the only one to have heard this interpretation of said story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham

Interesting how Noah and ONLY noah restarted man kind. So if that is the case we all are descendants of noah and his sons. Foremost descendents of Adam and Eve.

Ok next question ? Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden on eden?

So they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and live for ever.

One of the most enduring comforts for your heart, mind, and soul is knowing the entire Biblical narrative; Genesis to Revelation.
Hermeneutics is a process of observation (reading), interpretation (what's it mean?) and application (what's it mean to me?).
The western church has been neck deep in interpretation and application these past 15 decades or thereabouts at great expense of believers knowing much about God's Story - His Revelation of His Character.
A solid resource, one my wife and I enjoy together is a narrative about the Bible. Great resource.

Biblicalstory.org.

Blessings y'all on the Blessed week of remembrance of our Savior's Mercy for those who choose Him.
Mark

Rex you would be surprised how many don't know that . Someone needs to start a thread about bible questions that are myths.

Like why are the wise men depicted in the nativity scene? They didn't find Jesus until 2 years after he was born ....

Thx Mark I'll check that out !!!!

Sometimes people tend to over think all this. If your a Christian, don't put limits on God just because your mortal mind can't comprehend how it all came about. As for me, I'd much rather live a life filled with faith and hope as opposed to one filled with fear, doubt and skeptisim. Believe me I've tried both ways.

Exactly , My wife and I don't fear this covid thing. Place your faith in God as he will "never leave you nor forsake you"

It’s easy to doubt, part of my daily prayer is a promise to God that i will never stop honoring Him. No matter what the obstacles are!

I trust in Jesus.

I think its evil to see a little kid going through chemo etc and still dying a horrible death, a little at a time, from cancer, and the whole time having the ability to cure that cancer. If an invisible man like that really exists that invisible man is worse than hitler.

That kid will have eternal glory in Heaven.

If one was assuming anything about Cain's people we might not have to look much farther than ourselves. Of coarse that would be assuming Noah's wife was a descendant of Cain. Since if you believe in the Noah account then we are all a descendant of one of Noah's 3 sons. But it still goes back to Grandma Mrs, Noah, which was Tubal-Cain's sister which came from Cain. Unless one disregards the "Book of Division " all together, which is possible since the Ethiopian copy is the only one left and one can only imagine why it would be thrown aside. But leaves one to wonder why the Essenes would even bother to hide it in a cave (if it was of no value) of which only fragments remain.

That's a brazen statement coming from someone who believes its a Christian right to hold a service endangering innocent children and adults to a virus that's known to kill without discretion.
If you believe in that route, looks to me like it would only be a small step to say its God's right to kill whom he chooses. But then aqain wasn't Adam given instruction which he disregarded?

I never said anything about a christian right. I said PEOPLE have a right to peacefully assemble

So your version of a peaceful assembly would be the right to have a pool party with a pool full of gators. Just how peaceful is that ?

what are you so upset about? feeling a little wanky about the bill of rights?

Seems to me you are the one that's nervous about God being Sovereign. You are trying to straddle both sides and you will find its not peaceful to put God on a cart and haul Him around to fit your needs.

IC now. Your mad cause I said the emperor has no clothes.

Danny - That invisible man was betrayed, belittled, beaten, pierced, had spikes driven through him, hung on a cross, and died so you might have an eternal hope of a better life. His name is Jesus. He was, is, and will be. He is my Savior, my Redeemer, Friend, Father, and Lamb of God.

Danny - You have the ability to do a lot of things. Are you worse than Hitler for not doing them? We see things from a single perspective and our views. Gods plan is much greater than ours. Do I not understand a lot of why does God allow certain things - heck ya, but I put my trust in Him. I try, with Gods help, to live my life as pleasing to the Lord, giving Him thanks for all He has done for me. God has guided me over the years and I clearly see Him working in peoples lives. You are included.

Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

You and I have have both sinned before a Holy God, and even our best before a blameless God is not good enough. God loves you so much that he made that way through his son Jesus by your belief and confession.

Noah was righteous before God's eyes in a crooked generation..."Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence." God destroyed by death through the Flood.

Genisis 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

God destroying by death...

For the wages of sin is death...

It was only after they ate from the ( tree of knowledge).
With respect to the creator, I find this perplexing. Why was mankind not allowed knowledge ?

Some on this website, thankfully very few, mock and despise God, and it's sad to witness, for they allow their view and man's view of God to lead them. That has been going on since Adam and the woman yet to be called Eve did what was right in their own eyes (Gen. 3:6) = sin. We're all guilty each day of sinful behavior because we're all Adam's seed.

In Hebrew Scripture, an Israelite that blasphemed or acted/spoke against YHWH, acted in a presumptuous way, which was an unpardonable sin for a Hebrew. Committing a presumptuous, intentional sin against God was punishable by death (Deut. 17:11-12).

If you don't have faith in God, or His Anointed Ones (Christ), that's a statement of faith you freely give, and all have that privilege. But it isn't a good plan to intentionally mock God.

For some who deem Scripture foolishness, they may not realize;
God doesn't promise followers of Christ that we won't suffer while on earth, in fact it's the opposite. Satan rules earth at present so we can expect pandemics and more.
Blessedly, God revealed to us the answers in His Story on how it all works and fits together, beginning to the end times (Scripture). He tells believers, we will be persecuted for our faith, and that we may suffer "a little while" (in comparison to eternity). Deut. 8:2-5 in Hebrew and then 1 Peter 1:4-9 and other passages in the Greek text.

I've read 1 Peter - quietly and emotionally - alongside parents whose child has committed suicide, who's parent has died from sickness, and more. It's meant to help us know God's Mercy and Lovingkindness. It's a tough passage, but it's truth we can rest upon if we choose. Seems the world currently is resting on panic mode.

1 Peter 1:4-9

"to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls (NASB).

Blessings y'all!
Mark

i don't understand nuclear weapons but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

love this post

It was the act of trying to be like God.

Genesis 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Its not that knowledge isn't good, but not trusting God and trying to be him.

LOVE THIS POST ! Thanks Mark .

So, we were created in his image. It would be our natural inclination to grow and learn from him. Yet … we are not allowed to know the difference between good and evil. And yet, we have to know the difference between good and evil to survive. Makes me question the whole adam and eve story

how do you mock and desoise something that does not exist? i must admit to mocking superstition however


the emperor is not wearing any clothes

Why do you question why God would allow a child to die?
In an atheistic world, that would simply be natural selection, nothing good or evil about it.
In fact, nothing in such a world could be called evil. There's no standard of good or evil in a world where such concepts have no reason to exist.

They wanted to be like God. Same sin that Lucifer commited. They believed they knew better than God what was best for them. Pride is always where sin starts.

Evolution is nonsense and the most dangerous theory out there.

Your kidding right? You really believe that without your religion people would prey on each other unceasingly?


To answer your question about allowing a child to die, don't you claim your god is love? What is loving about cancer? I simply don't see it. I have heard all the stuff about we can't know gods will, free will, the reward is in heaven and on and on and on. The only thing that makes any sense at all to me is the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes. When a child dies of a horrible cancer, or a mother dies in childbirth, or we humans set each other on fire with napalm, it is not stopped because there is no invisible man to stop it.

Evolution is not nonsense even for a creationist. If you believe God created living breathing creatures, it would be reasonable to believe they were created with the ability to evolve and adapt to their environments.

The thing about Tman is......generally, most have their minds made up about something long before they post reply. It makes discussion pretty difficult when no one can listen to and entertain an idea that differs from their own without reacting emotionally.

There are plenty of counters to some of the statements being made. It's easy to justify the suffering of a child by saying the child "will receive eternal glory." Okay, now tell it to that child. Tell it to their parents. Better yet, explain why some are molested/murdered/traumatized and forgotten while their perpetrators enjoy long life? The question of "Why create knowing the untold suffering that would occur as a side effect" is a big one and definitely not going to get anywhere on here.

It is entirely appropriate to question and be aware of the suffering in this world and wonder how it relates to your own understanding of faith. In fact, people who are unable to do this lose a lot of credibility with me. Blind faith is great for some, but turning a blind eye to the suffering in this world is evil in its own right, in my opinion.

Equally as big of a topic is the discussion of whether human beings are born with an internal sense of right and wrong or if they need religion to tell them. I don't see that going far on here either. Referencing the history of Christianity as being the moral standard is a hard sell, as the whole historical relativism thing complicates matters a little...




'

It's very reasonable to believe without a Creator there is no such thing as good or evil. I've seen this topic debate by some of the smartest minds on both sides of the aisle between themselves and the out come is very interesting.

We have the 10 Commandments which are a guideline to know the difference between good and evil.

I think some are talking about evolution within a species and some are talking about evolution into a different species. When your talking about evolution one has to make a distinction between the two. One doesn't make a case for the other

You didn't answer my question. Compassion isn't logical in a world created by chance and ruled by natural selection.
The very fact that you have compassion on the child, is only due to you being made in the image of God.
Otherwise, might makes right and the strong survive ...that is evolutions only religion.

Guess you never saw the video of the orcas pushing the struggling baby seal through the surf onto the beach?
Just saving a snack for later?

Again, evidence for a loving God, but makes no sense in a random universe.

Why don't a lot of people believe in God? Part of the problem is look at to days churches , they can't agree on anything and say they are the only way to salvation. And yet there churches get bigger and bigger while their flocks sleep in the street and do with out. Before you jump on this exactly how many mega churches did Jesus build and how many homes and cars did he own?

I have and actually they were teaching hunting skills and the seal got too far in the surf and the waves washed it out of range.

What you are seeing is the results of SIN in a FALLEN world.

what i am seeing is reality

PAskinner just because you dont like my answer does not mean the question is unanswered.

Why is rape immoral? If I'm just a random collection of atoms that just by happenstance somehow learned to talk and walk, and by happenstance evolution gained a big brain, why would it be immoral for me to continue the evolutionary process by finding a suitable woman and holding her down and impregnating her?

If a kid is sick from some genetic disease, why don't we celebrate that kid's death? After all, that kids genetic material is harmful to the evolutionary process, and besides, that kid is just a random collection of cells. Here today, gone tomorrow. What's the big deal? Better to ge them out of gene pool, right?

Where do morals come from if they don't come from some higher power? If they come from government, does that make slavery moral as long as it's legal? If they come from collective society, does that mean cannibalism and incest and sacrificing babies are moral as long as that society approves? If they come from within man, who are you to question another man's morals? After all, if his morals come from within him and yours come from within you, aren't his just as valid as yours?

well bummer, so much for talking about archaic Humanoids.

Interesting discussion for sure, relatively civil so far too. Good work guys! Back to the original topic, as Mark June mentioned the Bible is best understood as a narrative opening with Genesis and closing with Revelation. Those first three pages of the book are extremely important, and the whole story is built upon them. However, their purpose is not to provide a mechanistic explanation of the origins of the universe or of species within it. It’s providing a functional explanation, and it does that in some fascinating and profound ways. Having a discussion about evolution or the origin of matter, etc. might be important, but the Bible isn’t providing evidence for any one view on that. At the time of it’s writing there wasn’t really a mechanistic scientific explanation available, so the primary purpose of the Hebrew creation narrative is functional and it’s context is best understood in relationship to the creation narratives of their neighboring cultures. The implications are huge and fascinating. I’d love to discuss them with anyone who is interested, but this probably isn’t the right venue. For now, I’ll provide some interesting (to me anyway) tidbits for those of you that enjoy reading the Bible:

The word Adam in Hebrew means humanity or mankind, and Eve simply means life. So is the story talking about two actual people or two representative people? It’s up for discussion, just don’t let it become to focus or you’ll miss the meaning of the story. Also, just for fun the word plays in the Bible are really cool. Adam (אדם) is made from the dirt, and the word for dirt is adamah (אדמה) and the word for the color red is adom (אדום).

Someone mentioned the notion of images in the Bible too. In the ancient world, kings and rulers were seen as the images of the gods, and that’s what gave them the authority to rule the people and make them do their bidding, but in the Hebrew world view, all people are God’s images and that means they all have to authority to rule, not necessarily over each other but over creation, bring order out of chaos and turning the earth into a beautiful garden just like God had some up to that point in the story. The word image is the Hebrew word tselem (צלם) and it’s the same word translated into idol in other passages. That’s why making idols was forbidden: people already are God’s images, making other images of God is dehumanizing. It’s also related to the fact that Israel wasn’t supposed to have a king.

Someone else mentioned the two trees and the fact that it seems like God is forbidding humans from finding wisdom. This seems to be the exact logic that the snake used to deceive Eve. Obviously, if humans were to rule like God they would need wisdom. I think the idea is that God would give them the wisdom. The tree of knowing good and evil represents humanity’s power grab and their attempt to rule with their own wisdom. There are consequences for that action which are played out through the rest of the book, and they aren’t good. The humans seem to have been (on one level at least) banished from the garden to protect them from the tree of life. The amazing life and power of that tree combined with a corrupted humanity that is selfish and violent would be disastrous.

In many ways I think Danny Clifton is on the same page as the authors of these books. They are wrestling with the tensions that all of us (I hope) sense in life. It seems like there so much potential for good and amazing things in the world, but those glimpses of good are always tempered by sadness, evil and violence. Most of us want to do what we think is right, but we fail at doing that constantly. What’s the deal? All religions are asking these questions (even secular world views), but the Hebrew Bible has a unique view that I find both interesting and very compelling.

I wonder what these unbelievers will be thinking when their laying on their death bed .

The image of God. From a burning bush to a resurrected King. The image I see is the latter. The image in which I try, yet struggle to mimic.

why is marrying your first cousin wrong? the bible does not forbid it

The same reason you have to pass a background check to own a gun.

Very interesting points. When studying the Bible the uniqueness you mentioned really comes to light even if studied from a secular point of view. To me, that uniqueness (along with personal experience) has God's hand written all over it. I believe the answers are are the IF you are looking for them. But usually the deeper the question the deeper the answer. Just like anything of great complexity, it take great knowledge to actually understand how it works.

You must not understand the question then. Let me rephrase: why would compassion exist in a godless universe?
Even if you decide it's for the continued survival of the species, it then becomes just part of a unbroken chain of causation, through random selection, so basically it's just an illusion.
A universe without a creator equals meaningless existence.

danny clifton


What is truth? What is your standard of truth? What is the line that everyone must meet and how do they meet that?

Nicely discussed.

Compassion I wouldn't think to be for the survival of a species, in nature its mostly the opposite, the species or herd is usually only as strong as the weakest member. Usually compassion would be a detriment to a species.

We are the only creatures capable of many things.

Eugenics has been tried. Didn't really work very well.

These threads are fascinating to me. The idea of morality or compassion existing only because of a higher power is laughable and factually incorrect. Some simple research on those very topics (obviously unbiased sources) will tell you the origin of both those things came long before modern organized religions.

[quote]Why do you question why God would allow a child to die?
In an atheistic world, that would simply be natural selection, nothing good or evil about it.
In fact, nothing in such a world could be called evil. /quote]

I agree, there is nothing evil about it, in my world, it's just an extremely shitty deal when little kids suffer like that. I'm like Danny Clifton though and do question why god would allow a child to die and to me any explanation from a religious standpoint is 100% created to fit that narrative.

I would think your first line would cause some to stop and wonder why that is

What about those little pigmy fellers, remote tribes that never heard about God but yet have compassion and morals and such???

Suffering is usually judged good or bad based off the final outcome of a situation. Take a trapper suffering through grueling conditions to put up a great season ending catch, or an athlete suffering through years of brutal training to find success in the end or a mother suffering through intense pain to bring life into this world. If the end is paradise for eternity our suffering on earth maybe of no consequence in the big picture.

This is exactly what I mean by created to fit a narrative.

Everyone has a narrative my friend, including you

Neanderthals likely used ranged weapons, made and used string/rope, made music with flute like instruments, cared for their elderly, buried their dead, practiced religion. Would Neanderthals be eligible for heaven or is that only for Homo Sapiens?

I believe it is only for the home sapiens that have existed for the last 1% of the existence of the said Homo Sapiens, or 2000 years. The 99% of our ancestors to live before Jesus would be out of luck it would seem.

Good question. Since Neanderthals and even Homo Erectus apparently had the ability to reason, why wouldn’t they be eligible for an afterlife? How does Adam and Eve figure into the forerunners of Homo Sapiens?

I suspect our neanderthal relatives feared death and anything that was still a mystery as much as the african homo sapiens did. I keep hoping that the source of mystery dna in native africans is found. The more research that is done the more it becomes apparent that we modern humans are the result of some cross breeding.

I wouldn't recommend referring to middle easterner's as "black skinned" in person, they take great offense to that. There were few to none sub Saharan Africans in the middle east during the Roman era. Sephardi Jews have been a constant in the area since biblical times, Jesus almost certainly would of looked like a Sephardi Jew. [/quote]






They are not white and I never said they were black , I believe I said Brown if you read it again .

Not true, there were lots of people that came before Jesus that were commended for their faith and walked with God.

The Fate of The Unlearned totally depends on the religion. Different faiths respond differently, even different denominations of the same faith. Which one is correct? Well that would depend on one's denomination I'd have to think.

Romans 3 and 4 explain this very thing. It talks about Abraham believing God's promise to him and it being credited to him as righteousness. He was made righteous not because of his works, but because of his faith in God's promise. It also talks about David talking about God crediting righteousness apart from works.
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:



7
“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.

8
Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

I have never physically met Abraham Lincoln, but I believe he existed because history tells me so.
The same holds true with Jesus. Though I have never physically met Jesus, I know of his existence because historically it's true based on the writings of the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus. Though he was never a follower of Jesus, he lived during those days. His writings are based on what he was told and saw:

"About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by principle men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day." Pages 264-265

God didn't want them eating of the tree of life because he didn't want them becoming as one of us and living forever. Is the way it reads.

The tree of life has a lot of branches and thus many twigs and leaves as well.

The story in the Bible pertinent for me this day is from Exodus where God told the Israelites to put the blood of the lamb on the door step and stay in side as the plague passed over. Which today in many religions and congregations we are saying is not what God would want us to do. Leave it to man over 4000 years modify God's word for their own ideas.

Bryce

God telling people to rub lamb blood all over their front door or their first born sons would be killed by an angel is a little different than the government telling me I can't go to church or even host it in my own home, isn't it?

Playing with (tormenting) their catch like a cat does with a mouse. Occasionally one gets away.

Not in the footage I watched. The orca very slowly and deliberately nudged the seal through the surf until the seal gained purchase in the sand then the orca backed until it could turn around then it slowly swam off. It was a mature whale and there where no young whales in the scene. Definitely not playing cat and mouse. This occurred after the pod had ripped several seals to bits and eaten them, they even played “catch “ with one seal by flipping it through the air with their tail. I don’t have any idea what was going through the whales brain and neither did the narrator. Best guess on my part is the whales had already eaten their fill and the one in question was “saving some for seed” don’t think-know it was compassion. But it was weird.

I have caught foxes that have wagged their tail when I walk up on them, do you really believe they were happy to see me?

Nope, Canine show of submission.

So just doing what they are programmed to do?

Neanderthals were also Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

As long as we've gotten this far off track that we're talking about orcas, here's an interesting animal story.

Years ago I had a couple of live martens in mink cages, the cages have a nest box hanging on the side of the cage they are about 10x10 inches and about a foot deep. There is a plywood cover lid on top of the nest box.

So one day while out checking some cage traps I discover I've caught a bushy-tailed wood rat, kind of cute as far as rats go, and not a very common catch.
I get the bright idea that the marten would probably love to snack on it.

I get home late, take the cage trap and rat over to the marten cage, open the main door on the top of the cage a dump the rat into the cage. The marten is looking out of his nest box door at this procedure. The rat is outside in the pen looking a little bewildered, and the marten is peering out of his box.

I watch the non-action for a few minutes and decide to go in the house, grab a bite to eat and go to bed.

Wake up in the morning and remember about the marten-rat experiment.

I go out, no rat visible in the cage, I think the marten is a well fed marten. I remove the plywood cover from the nest box and peer down inside. I see two faces looking up at me, both of them snuggled up right tight with each other. Became good friends until I turned them both loose.

True story.

When the lamb lies down with the lion....

Good story Waggler. And marten do eat them for sure.

You guys are gonna make me cry....., or go vegan.

Go vegan and keep us posted on how that goes. We all can use some hilarity in our sheltered lives.

PASkinner, we've debated this compassion issue before. Why do you think human beings couldn't invent compassion by themselves?

For a tribe of early humans, compassion was a survival trait. It insured they could work as a group, as opposed to a collection of self-interests. It strengthened the survival prospects of each individual.

Babies don't know compassion until they're taught it. If God were responsible for creating compassion, then why wouldn't babies know it too?

Why don't sociopaths know compassion? One in twenty-five people you meet is a sociopath, btw.

Jim

James, so do you think morality is subjective?

Largely subjective, but there are rules against certain things, like murder, in just about every moral code.

Jim

Yes, but where does that moral code derive? If it merely evolved with culture then it is subject to change. If a culture devolves to the point where elimination of undesirable members is acceptable, then, following your line of reasoning, that new norm would be moral.

We do eliminate undesirable members. Its called capital punishment or sometimes life without the possibility of parole.

Also moral codes do change. For instance non muslims no longer stone homosexuals and adulterous women.

Morality does change with the culture. Sexual mores for instance have changed dramatically since I was a kid.

Jim

That would be called macro evolution, teaching kids came from rocks is evil and stupid.

Yes, moral behavior does change, the Nazis moral code justified killing jews, etc., and current sexual morals will get our culture into trouble I predict.
These changing morals are subjective (subject to change). The fact thar behaviors change does not mean those behavoirs are advantageous to our culture, and are seldom sustainable.
I believe a case canbe made for basic objective morals that transcend nearly every culture.

Hmm. I thought they were the predecessors to us humans but with Homo Sapien traits. I’ll have to look that up.

Not predecessors, but we are thought to have shared the common ancestor Homo erectus. Some classify Neanderthals as a separate species, and others refer to them as a sub-species of Homo sapiens. I'm a lumper myself so I consider them a sub-species since we apparently interbred and produced viable offspring.

Happy Easter to all. Jesus died on the cross for all believers and non believers

HE IS RISEN

... as in, he did what He said He would do

y'all

Some said, "Game changer!" and because they did, and told many others what they saw, we can be followers in faith today of the greatest name that's ever been,
2,000 years (75 generations or so) after they saw it.

Blessings
Mark

Interesting.

Gerald L. Berry, author of Religions of the World," wrote:

"About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection."

Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians:

"... used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype, and which the imitation."

Many religious historians and liberal theologians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels were lifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity, or were taken from the life of Horus, an Egyptian god. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity. 4 Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis and Horus legends as being a Pagan myths of little value with no connection to Jesus. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.

Wiccans and other modern-day Neopagans continue to celebrate the Spring Equinox as one of their 8 yearly Sabbats (holy days of celebration). Near the Mediterranean, this is a time of sprouting of the summer's crop; farther north, it is the time for seeding. Their rituals at the Spring Equinox are related primarily to the fertility of the crops and to the balance of the day and night times. In those places where Wiccans can safely celebrate the Sabbat out of doors without threat of religious persecution, they often incorporate a bonfire into their rituals, jumping over the dying embers is believed to assure fertility of people and crop

Interesting topic, so I will help muddy the waters. Gen chapter 6 makes it very clear that sons of man (fallen angels) married the daughters of men. There children were of very old, men of renown, some giants and others. They also ate human flesh. GOD was not happy and sent a flood to destroy them. Goliath was of this blood line (Persian, Phonecian and Philistine). This could account for the neandrathal blood line. It would also account for the ancient gods of the Greeks and the Romans. The blood line of Jesus is through Abraham to Noah then to Seth.

Do not forget Deuteronomy chapter 2 about Esau who sold his birthright: a land of giants and men of war since before time. ( time times and half a time)

Jesus Noah Shem Abraham are the Jewish line,they are Sethian (we are not). Noah had three sons, one he was a little disappointed in, Canaan, he and his bloodline was cursed to serve Shem forever [Gen 9}. Shem bloodline flows to Abraham. Abraham lived in the land of Canaan as they would always serve him. The bible and ancient test seems to leave out wives, and they may not have been Sethian.

So what color was Jesus, he was Jewish, so he was olive colored as all in the middle east.
Abraham had Ishmeel with Hagar (Egyptian) the blood line of Islam, true Arabs (Sunni).

So Adam and Eve had many children the ones that are followed in the Bible and Jewish texts are concerned with Seth.

The other bloodlines you talking about are traced thru Cain. Ancient history is fun to read about considering very little is known about it.

The question is who serves Israel today, that would go to England who established the state of Israel. The Brits and the USA are the only countries that serve Israel through Christianity. So are we the bloodline of Cain as the European bloodlines have fought for and over Palestine for a very long time, even before the Crusades.

There are many other bloodlines in the middle east, like the Yadzee who Islam says the are of the bloodline of the peacock god or satan.

Why does Islam call the USA the great satan

Islam lives the Koran as history, not theology.

If you are a Christian then there is not theology, only history. We fail to study the old testament and the ancient texts, then decide to argue over Adam and Eve.

My faith is in Jesus, but I spent over 7 years in the middle east and I have walked those sands and learned from those that reside there.

Where Cain slew Abel might be where the first temple to Baal was built, it is sacred to those opposed to Christ and a place of human sacrifice, remember do not eat that which is offered to idols. The Romans and Alexander built on this location.

Never forget the Sunni called out the Iranians (persian) as Annanaki the bloodline of King Nebacaneser, who Daniel in prophesy described the dilution of his bloodline from a head of gold to legs of clay and iron. We all know clay is where Adam came from.

So chew on this a while and read/study history.

X2 Jesus died on the cross to give everyone of us a chance.