Sweden GOT IT RIGHT !!!

Ok one story you don't hear much about is how Sweden has handled this corona mess. NOTHING changed as far as the general public. ONLY thing shut down is nursing homes and elderly folks are ask to stay away from crowds. Their death rate per capita is lower than ours !!!! Kids in school economy intact. No hand outs because government forced people to close. Ok so who handled this right . IF we destroyed our economy, fell trillions farther in debt , PLUS got Biden elected than I vote we dropped the ball.
They want to base Everything on stats then use all of them. A country that changed nothing has the same death rate as those that closed and cowered in place . HMMMMMMM??

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/26/8452...-immunity-in-may-swedish-ambassador-says

Hmmmmmmm..

Move there then.

You sure make a lot of noise for a little feller

The death rate in Sweden is about 5 times the rate of neighboring countries, [Norway, Finland, Denmark]. So yeah, great job Sweden!

Dont know about Sweden, but anyone who thinks we got it right, (US and Canada) has their head in the sand. We ruined an entire economy and added so much to the national debt it puts us in a very precarious position for years to come....all for a virus with a mortality rate about like the flu.

Two California doctors gave a press conference a few days ago that everyone should watch. They laid out the real facts.

Good analysis of Sweden:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866

If it is the one I am thinking it is, I watched it yesterday. Made the most sense of anything I have seen date and used only verifiable, publicly available data.

But unfortunately, the You Tube Police have censored and removed the video. They apparently do not want Facts made available to the masses!

The short version ----- they understood why the actions were taken initially, based on projected scenarios. But now we have hard data that shows that those early projections were way off. And the reality does not support the drastic measures continuing. They also pointed out the myriad of other problems that the continuing shutdown is and will cause.

Sweden as opted for the longer term herd immunity approach. It maybe a better route we don't know for sure. About a month ago Trump was stating how bad things in Sweden were in one of his briefings. I have not heard him or any others on the task force raising the issue of using herd immunity as the method. Over time herd immunity will probably come about, it is just what percent of the world population will be forced be isolated and how long. In the USA there are roughly 50 million people over 65 years old and if they are isolated for extended periods they won't contribute a lot to the total economy.

Bryce

You tube has blocked laura Ingrams show, and the dr segment and other fox news

Yea and New York's death rate is a little OVER 12,500 TIMES OVER KY !!! Whats your point? Look at some of New yorks neighboring states Big difference !!!!

You need to go look at the data. Compare it to it's next door neighbor Norway that did lock down. Very little difference in the infection or mortality rate.

Brawndo : It's got what plants crave!

From the article, "Foreign residents, particularly those from Somalia who are more likely to live in multi-generational households, are also overrepresented in the figures."

Somalis are a big part of the problem with the spread of Covid-19 here in the US too. Somalis failure to follow the rules is why our meat packaging industry is crippled. Somalis also spread Covid-19 badly in Italy and Greece. We should not allow poor quality immigrants like Somalis into the US ever again.

Keith

where is not sure to fix our ecomony.

Current as of yesterday worldwide data

Sweden 19,621 cases 2355 deaths 12% death rate be confirmed case
Denmark 8851 cases 434 deaths 4.7%
Norway 7619 cases 206 deaths 2.7%
Finland 4740 cases 199 deaths 4.1%

Bryce

The largest Scandinavian country by area is Sweden. This nation is also the most populous with a population exceeding 10 million. Both Norway and Denmark each have less than 6 million inhabitants. Total population of all Scandinavian countries is 29 million.

According to the data Bryce just presented, Sweden's superb handling of the crisis has resulted in three times as many deaths as Norway, Denmark and Finland COMBINED!

Sweden only has a population density of 64 people per square mile compared to Denmark's 347 people per square mile. You would think all other things being equal, that Denmark would have many more cases proportionately due to it's population density being over 5 times greater.

Keith

But they aren’t equal, are they? Based on what you said there is no comparison and no point in comparing that way.

My point was Sweden's experiment likely led to a much higher infection and death rate.

Keith

OK LOOK at the title and MY original thread . WE have destroyed our country and the greatest economy EVER!!!! Sweden didn't close down and has the SAME if not less death rate per capita than US !!! You know the place we live !!! The place our kids will grow up and deal with this crap the hand outs have left behind. MY whole point was if the death rate is the same even tho you didn't close anything what have you accomplished by booting people out into the streets.....
The crap they are touting now is testing. Big whoop. If you test positive the treatment doesn't change.

The same ones saying we need 300 million test are the ones that said 2.2 million would die. We really don't know the true NUMBER OF DEATHS from the virus. Read my other thread . This is one case I KNOW about....

Oh yea they said billary would beat TRUMP

Sweden Experiment is a Disaster. It will be interesting to see if the second wave kills more. I'm keeping a low profile until Summer 2021. I'm fortune to have that ability, god bless those that don't. Reporting in from Western New York.

Based on employment and STILL the number of deaths looks like our "experiment" isn't working out to good either.

Is any of this good? Ask yourself. I'm glad they tried it just to see the differences. If I had to pick, it would be our response. I do believe if we did nothing and went on business as usual; we would have had an extraordinary amount of death. Its to early to tell if we did to little or "to much" My families and I health are most important.

Then look at the numbers from the post before yours.

Sweden 19,621 cases 2355 deaths 12% death rate be confirmed case
Denmark 8851 cases 434 deaths 4.7%
Norway 7619 cases 206 deaths 2.7%
Finland 4740 cases 199 deaths 4.1%

You says Sweden has 10 million people while Denmark and Norway have about 6 million each. So 10 million compared to 12 million. Sweden with 10 million has 2355 deaths, Denmark and Norway with 12 million have 646 deaths. With populations fairly close, Sweden had 4 times as many deaths. That's getting it right?

Last night on PBS some guy was interviewing a doctor from Sweden. He said something to the affect of how proud she must be with Sweden with how they've handled this. She looked and said what are you talking about, our death rate is so much worse then our neighboring countries. By the look on his face you could tell that wasn't the answer he was expecting to get.

We can't undo any of the decisions that were made about how to handle Covid-19. Trying to point blame and overly worrying about what ifs is nearly pointless and not productive, except where it concerns how we might deal with a future pandemic. This was a novel disease it was better to be overly cautious then under cautious.

Deciding how to handle things better in the future is important. Health screenings of people seeking to enter the US seems like a very good idea. Bans on travel from countries that allow their people to live and shop in unsanitary conditions, also seemd like a good idea.

Keith

This simply isn't the case. Stanford doctors have now concluded that the virus was in California ( and probably everywhere else) long before we shut things down. Fact is most people have very mild cases, many dont even know they have it. It defies common sense to think the first lady that tested positive in the US was the first actual case. Its been here for awhile. A front line New York doctor is now saying we need to open up, the sooner the better.

If its anything like the spanish flu the second wave in the fall will be much deadlier than this first one,and its been a doozie so far.
I agree that social distancing has kept it from becoming an all out slaughter.
Have to keep an eye on Italy and Spain this fall to see how bad the second wave will be.

I didn't say Sweden's approach was right or wrong. I simply stated some facts that should be considered in any analysis. Don't try to put words in my mouth when you don't know what I'm thinking. Pick a fight elsewhere.

USA-177 deaths per million of population.

Sweden-233 deaths per million of population.

Norway & Finland - high 30's deaths per million of population.

Not a single country in the World is done with the virus yet. The countries are all at different levels of exposure.

Keith

You might want to reread my post, I think you're overreacting a bit. At no point did I say you made any claims about Sweden's approach. I only used your population numbers and another poster's death numbers, and then compared Sweden to other countries in the area. I wasn't picking a fight, I was just doing the same thing you were doing, stating some facts that should be considered in any analysis.

There might be one difference. The second wave of the Spanish flu came at the same time World War 1 ended. Thousands upon thousands of people went out in large groups in the streets to celebrate the ending of the war. Definitely no social distancing.

But I do agree a second wave will come next fall.

Nations or governmental units will and have tried several different methods and we are finding that none are really effective, some better than others at least in the initial phases of this virus. With several different methods used each governmental unit can learn a bit more from each and then put together hopefully better overall plans short and long term. The fact that the whole world has scientists looking for treatments and working on vaccines will help find the solutions faster. Probably one of the reasons the world does not take drastic attempts to close down for the flu as we have vaccines, treatments and we know that the death rate per infected person is far below the roughly 4-6% we are seeing with Covid at the present time. Humans are social animals and thus interaction is a vital part of our being and billions of humans live in very crowded and densely populated regions which reduces our ability to control the spread. Also herding humans is like herding cats, we are independent and inclined to do as we please not as told or recommended and that greatly increases the spread of contagious diseases.
We don't and won't know the real outcome of different methods for months yet but to date the few nations that really got on to intense mitigation early are having the fewer cases, fewer deaths and returning to phased in normality quicker and more safely.

Bryce

OK, since I have no crystal ball I just posted where things are at today....those things may or may not show that Sweden got anything right, depends on how you want to interpret them.

Sweden may be leading in the cost - benefit analysis. How much has Sweden spent per life saved?

I heard North Korea is ahead in that department- everyone that tested positive was shot in the head.

I can always count on Boco to put things in proper perspective. LOL

OK don't think I haven't any remorse for people that have lost someone during this . But when figuring cost do you think anyone in government has thought about how many billions in medicare will be saved because of the elderly passing at a high rate?

It all effects the bottom line.................
Beds are opening up in nursing facilities, Nature at work. I called this a human distemper 3 months ago

Sweden has twice the population of Norway but the death rate suggests a huge variation based on a number of factors. Sweden didn’t lock down the way it’s neighbors did. Demographically it may be different also (I don’t know). But if the experiment was to see how open one could keep one’s society to avoid illness, the death percentages suggest the experiment wasn’t successful.

We basically have had two options...

1) Let it run its course now.

2) Let it run its course later.

This thing isn't going away. It's going to run its course no matter what we do.

The only other option is for a vaccine... But with the "success" rate of influenza vaccines I wouldn't hold my breath.

Mike

As infectious as this virus seems to be, it will circle the globe several times before a vaccine is ready. Personally, I doubt an effective vaccine is ever developed. IMO the best path forward is for the most at risk to use best practices and for everyone else to get back to work. If we don't do this soon , there will be nothing to return to.

I think it's still way to early to say what was the right approach and what wasn't. Clearly Sweden has a many more deaths then Denmark and Norway, though their population is similar, but it doesn't sound like their hospitals were overrun like we saw in Italy or Spain or New York. So on that point Sweden did ok. They did nothing and made it through without over loading their hospitals which can cause many more deaths. But it's still too early to understand why it seemed to have worked for them, but other places like Italy and Spain had such big problems.

As for the number of deaths, no one knows how many more there will be in the future. Denmark and Norway don't have as many deaths as Sweden today, but two years from now we may look at the numbers and see it's all the same, it just took Denmark and Norway longer to get to Sweden's number. But then that was the whole point to social distancing. Spread it out over a period of time so the hospitals could handle it.

There's a lot of talk about how it wasn't so bad, and up to a point that can be justified. But we can still look at places like Italy, Spain, and New York and wonder how bad it would have been if we'd have done nothing. I think our deaths numbers would be much higher today. But that being said a year from today the death toll may end up being the same, we just don't know. The big complaint is ruining the economy, but I don't think we ruined it, I think it took a big step back, but only because of a pandemic virus. The jobs lost were not permanent losses, but just temporary losses once the worst of the virus is past. When we had huge job losses in 2009 that was because of a bad economy and they weren't coming back quickly, but here it's different. There's no reason we shouldn't be looking back at this as a temporary thing that only lasted a few months.

I also think some governors made it much worse then it had to be. The lock downs and rules some governors imposed were way over the line, and really did more economic damage then it should have. In Nebraska the bars and restaurants closed like the rest of the country, but we never closed the retail stores, and never issued a stay at home order. Our hospitals handled the cases with no problems, which was the point, and we didn't have nearly as much damage to our local economy. Perhaps the mistake was the Federal government not telling some governors to back off a bit on their restrictions, but then you have that state's rights matter to deal with. Hopefully states that had problems with governors being too restrictive will remember that come election time.

I have not read all the above post. I thing one of the factors that make things different in other Country's is that if your are told to wear a mask, you will
wear a mask or else. I see a great number of people not doing so. Remember we are Americans, we are free to our last breath. The number are still going up. I read very little about the virus anymore. Good luck and stay safe. JMO

I have not read all the above post. I thing one of the factors that make things different in other Country's is that if your are told to wear a mask, you will
wear a mask or else. I see a great number of people not doing so. Remember we are Americans, we are free to our last breath. The number are still going up. I read very little about the virus anymore. Good luck and stay safe. JMO

Swedens approach may end up saving the most unhealthy and having the lowest economic impact. If you drag out the spread of the infection among the healthy, then you drag out the time the healthy are likely to give it to the unhealthy. Once most of the healthy have been infected and built immunities the virus dies out for lack of new victims. Then the unhealthy can roam again with little fear of catching the virus from us healthy people.

The only reason to slow the spread among the HEALTHY is ????????

All assumptions fail, at this point, because we have no empirical evidence that infected people gain any immunity.

And further to White's point, there is NO guarantee that we will ever have a successful vaccine.

I think the only reason you spread it out is so the hospitals don't get overrun. Spain, Italy, and New York saw their hospitals overrun, and when the hospitals get overrun people die that didn't have to die if the hospital could have properly cared for them. Those extra people that die are not just Covid 19 patients, but also people with other conditions like heart attack or stroke that do not get proper care, or may not even go to the hospital for fear of going to a place that is overrun with Covid 19 patients.

I don't think anyone can accurately put a number on the extra people that die because of an overrun hospital, but common sense tells us it would happen in more places the way it did happen in Spain, Italy, and New York.

The key is now is the time to slowly open it back up and monitor the hospitals. To stop the spread around 70% of the people are going to have to get it, for herd immunity, or we need a vaccine, which I don't see ever coming. So open up where you safely can and keep an eye on the cases. Unfortunately I think we will see some governors play politics with this and stay closed longer then needed, putting restrictions on people that aren't needed.

I could be wrong but:

I do not think NY's hospitals were over run, they have barley used the Navy hospital ship and never ran out of ventilators.

Did Sweden get it right? Shoot, the average Swede doesn't know enough to come in out of the rain! What good does it do to keeping making more Volvos if the world can't afford to buy them?

"Researchers do know that reinfection is an issue with the four seasonal coronaviruses that cause about 10 to 30% of common colds. These coronaviruses seem to be able to sicken people again and again, even though people have been exposed to them since childhood.

"Almost everybody walking around, if you were to test their blood right now, they would have some levels of antibody to the four different coronaviruses that are known," says Ann Falsey of the University of Rochester Medical Center.

After infection with one of these viruses, she says, antibodies are produced but then the levels slowly decline and people become susceptible again.

"Most respiratory viruses only give you a period of relative protection. I'm talking about a year or two. That's what we know about the seasonal coronaviruses," says Falsey."

Regarding Sweden, Then one could also argue that New Zealand got it right (the lowest Covid numbers in the world). They were on the other side of the spectrum with a total ban on movement outside of the home. hmmmm

Again this is one of many, many hurdles in life. Get over it and move onward in a positive manner. Or get hung up on it and cry and blame. You're choice.

Not like anyone on here has a say in any of this anyhow...so lets not waste our time griping about it as it matters zero (the CDC, WHO nor the Prez are looking to us stinky old trappers for any answers).

I got beaver traps to check, and bees to wrangle (yes there are still plenty of things to do these days...and it sure beats crying in your beer about how bad things are). We are "supposedly" outdoorsmen....Go Outside.

I Hope everyone well, and a positive day!

I don't think New York was as bad as Italy or Spain. The hospital ship was never meant for covid 19 patients, it was suppose to be used for patients other then covid 19. Since they were not getting patients for the ship they asked if it could be used for covid 19, Trump said yeah if you need it, and then it was never used.

New York was pretty bad, but I'd agree not totally overrun. Now I did read in home deaths in New York went up 400%, which leads one to wonder how many people didn't want to go near a hospital when they should have, and ended up dying at home. Like I said earlier those are numbers you will never be able to prove one way or the other.

Well, I don't consder myself an outdoorsmen, however I did survey the local moose population within a mile of the house this morning on the crust. 15 total moose 11 dead 4 alive . Looks like about a 73% death rate.

How many more people in the US are dying per week than normal??

Please use FACTS!

There must be thousands dead worldwide from covid that were never identified as dying from covid.

That one may be hard to pin down. We can say total deaths are about the same as normal, so nothing unusual going on. But with reduced driving traffic deaths may be down which counters any extra covid 19 deaths. It will take some time but someone will have to look at the many different reasons for deaths, and put them all together to see what happened. I don't think that will take place for quite a while.

Here's the key, you can't change the curve. A certain amount of people are going to die from this, you won't change that short of a vaccine, which we don't have and probably never will. So if you can't change the curve you flatten it and spread out the number of deaths, which stops the hospital from being overrun, which may help prevent others from dying. Others that may or may not have covid 19.

Up to this point we've done that, so as long as we can keep the curve under control, we open back up. Some people probably think it's cold and callous but a certain number of people have to get this and a certain number of people have to die. At my age I'm just going to try and make sure I'm not one of them, but that means from this point forward, I'm the one that needs to be careful and protect myself from everyone else that has to get on with their lives.

The flatten the curve tactic was just to prevent hospitals from being overrun, not to prevent people from getting sick...people will continue to get sick ,and die from this, but when you figure the amount of asymptomatic cases, and the amount of people that already had it, and didn't know what it was early on, your death rate percentage will drop.

Many people have some immunity to the various flu's, imagine if a brand new ordinary flu popped up, with no one having any immunity, what would that look like?, probably like this covid one.

The measures taken in the US to slow the spread of Covid-19, without a doubt, slowed the spread of other diseases, like the flu.

Keith

Good point. It would be interesting to see the number of standard flu cases and how fast they dropped once social distancing started. Of course you might be able to say the same thing for STDs.

Auto accidents and crime are down as well. We got a letter today and are getting a small refund on our auto insurance for the past two months.

Bryce

Yes but heart disease and cancer has been running rampant the last 2 months. Bet they will kill more than covid will..

I'm afraid we'll never get away from this social distancing thing. In one form or another its probably here to stay.

And the meat trailers were never used

NOW NOW but they had them so therefore they must have needed them ....

Japan must have got it right too. I don't know what their death rate is, but according to my brother-in-law, everyone is wearing masks, but they're pretty much going about their ordinary business.

Jim

https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/covid-19-strategy-the-japan-model/


Japan did have a plan. They did very little testing, instead they traced any positive case and made sure all people that had contacted the positive person were isolated. Sounds a lot like what we've been doing. I'm guessing the difference is one wearing the masks early on, I think that probably helped stop the spread, and more importantly the people of Japan would be more willing to do what they're asked, stay home. We're a tad more independent here and don't like being told what to do. Remember how many times early on a positive person was told to stay home and still went out to some party of function they didn't want to miss, and then more people ended up positive.

Japan did prove mass testing isn't really the answer, tracing and isolation worked. Plus I do think the masks also had a big part, but then many there wore masks long before covid came about so they were used to them and had plenty on hand. Many thought it was a mistake not to advise masks here at the start, but I thought if they'd have suggested that the masks would have been gone faster then TP, and health care workers would have had none. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

Last week, I got $100.00 back from my auto insurance company, due to people driving less from the pandemic.

Keith

I wonder how much healthier we would be if the entire world had everybody stay home for two weeks at the start of their respective cold and flu seasons?

Keith

All the numbers and stats are interesting, but, meaningless at this point. The only numbers that matter are going to be at the end of the pandemic.

My guess, which I figure is as good as any ones guess, is that when it is all over the total death rates are going to be pretty much the same everywhere. The differences are going to be when during that entire cycle the deaths occurred.

My guess, is based upon the assumption that sooner or later, protection, or no protection, we will all get the virus, and the outcome is what it will be.

With 663,000 sq miles in Alaska that's over 7 million moose dead! Sounds like a pandemic to me.

In Minnesota the rate of auto accident fatalities is way, way up.

With much less traffic on the roads a lot of morons are using them as race tracks. The MN highway patrol is ticketing many more super-speeders than ever before. I'm talking 100mph and more.

Just saw a CNN segment on the evening news stating that Sweden staying open cost many lives. I am sure some people did die. People die everyday. The point I am trying to express is Sweden has less deaths than my home state of Michigan and I think the population is about the same. Interesting!

A lot of people think Sweden didn't do anything, but in fact they did push social distancing just like everyone else, only they didn't force their people to comply. People just did it because it was the right thing to do. I'm not sure if we'd have had the same success here, but then we never got a chance to find out because some governors went way over the line, and are still way over the line today.

Today Sweden seems to have a different approach to keeping down their crowds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...park-deter-visitors-coronavirus-lockdown