FH auction

Almost show time in North Bay!! 15 minutes till the auction starts.

The live stream seems to be working. The camera is on the auction stand and I saw one of the auctioneers walk in and put some items on the stand. Seems like everything is in order.

Let the fun begin. Hope those with fur on the sale do well. One can always hope.

And it's actually streaming on Youtube.....we'll finally be able to listen all the way through without it crashing!

Is the live stream working for you?

Not for me. Cant log in to my account, either.

-NC

Not now. It was 10 min ago.

The entire web site is down according to what I’m getting. Hope they get it fixed otherwise I woke up this early for nothing.

auction is working good on youtube for me. I was able to get on their website also. Hopefully it stays going

Interesting. Still isn’t working for me.

go to this link and watch & hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faa70bjCFJg

Yeah, it went down for a few minutes before 8 but back up just before the start of the auction.

It's not that early!!!

Some wolf buy backs at $400

Go to u tube--"Fur Harvesters"

Works for me and I like that better than nafas. This you can see the auctioneers at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faa70bjCFJg

How much longer are the wolves going to last...?

I wish I could get on fha and look at catalog to see where abouts they are. I'm thinking quite awhile

Down in the $100 wolves now.....can't imagine it will be much longer.

Probably another hour on wolves. 917 is the last lot. They are in the 300s now. It goes fast when no one bids.

I didn't put the order of sale some place that I can find. Can anyone post it again...? Thanks!!

Wolves, wolverine, black bears. Not sure what is after that.

Ok, thanks for the additional info. Not much I'm interested in today and tomorrow am will be awaiting the wife's total knee. So, nice to see the streaming youtube working. Good luck anybody who has fur up there!!

I'm able to log in and download the catalog again.....it was down for a couple hours.

1100 wolves and 900 lots so obviously they're basically selling them one/two per lot?
Are wolves protected in all of the lower 48 states still?

no Idaho has hunting and trapping season for them

Waiting for Bobcats, hoping for the best.

It's taking forever, but fur is moving! Active bidding on most wolf lots right now.
Hope other species are similar.

Not in:
Idaho
Wyoming
Montana

Have seasons on them

The better wolves, wolverine and bears sell individually. So much variation it is hard to lot them in bigger lots.

Anyone familiar with the wolf market? What's your take on the prices?

Post some prices.

Wissmiss
How many lots of Wolverine and Bears r there?

Thanks for yr response
Grousewit

Wolverines selling around 4-500 right now

Early on they were selling for 40-120. Then I'm guessing new crop, they jumped up in the 600-750 and as the quality dropped they went all the way down to $20ish.

gulo not selling well

what is Gulo?

wolverine

Wolverine sales were sporadic until they got to the third section. Then there were 2 buyers fighting over those skins.

320 wolverine in 320 lots. Everyone a single.

I got no volume now nice

Volume should be working now.

Ya kinda wish it hadn't worked now. Bears arent great.

Yeah $30 for a bear is sad.

I ave roughly half of what I normally would for similar bears in years past.

wolves now 1/2 done.

Well , still no cat market. At least for Canadian cats. I had 15 on the first page and I think 2 sold...

wow cat market is ugly

Did they do bobcats already?

bobcats are with drawn

yeah, almost no interest, so they basically skipped most of the catalog.
lynx up now, very similar, almost no interest at any of the minimum prices.

wow. i knew it was going to be bad, but wow.
low end marten at $3, most from $4-12.
gotta sell something to keep the lights on i guess, just didn't think it would end up being marten.

Low prices and low clearances may not keep the lights on. Maybe googling" FHA doillete " next year.

Who knows, maybe oppossum will shine at a nickle a peice?

Any of the bobcats sell?

some badger prices seemed decent

One polar bear brought an impressive price.

Skunks is were the money's at.

Makes the term ,how much trapping I can afford seem almost real lol.
Or how much fun can I afford .

Welcome to retirement Red Mt...sure hope you have a good railway pension.

By the looks of it fur is not going supplement my retirement much lol.
But I think I'll be alright
Thank you North 50
Later call you when it's all over tomorrow

I'm starting to think I won't get an interest check again this year on my revenue share certificates. Who knows, maybe beaver will shine tomorrow.

canada needs to open her borders back up

Never had 1 dam thing sell. Not a skunk or badger or cat

Did you watch it? No accounts have been updated yet

THIS^^^^^^ Spot on Danny. Who wants to buy and pay much money for anything that they can't look at or feel. Most of the end users don't understand much about the grading system.

When will they be updated?

Well I lied I just looked and mines been updated now.

Ended up moving 11 of the 15 cats I had there so looks like everyone was waiting for the private treaty sales. $65 average and best one was $120. Down 60% from last year on mine. But it’s kind of to be expected the way things are right now. At least there is a sliver of a market still there.

Ya I'd say my bears were down about 60% as well.

1X SELECT SEMI XXPL-SPOTTED A 18.00

shoulda set it on fire

Ouch..

cat should have brought 750

and did it sell??

pretty cat

i thought even in this market it would bring a few hundred. 1x select semi heavy extra pale spotted a grade belly if im deciphering the code right. 18 bucks ?

is there any way to look at auction results for today like you could on the old NAFA site

The full 8 hours is on youtubee you just have to scroll along to your sections show up.....and listen for the hammer thud.
but when multiply lots are sold there is not several thuds this time.

maybe that 18 bucks is a typo

danny was your lot number in 350 ish?......alot of lots in that area sold in 20 dollars range

Coon get auction yet ?

None sold today!!

Coon tomorrow coonman.

lot# 70259

Ida gave ya 20$ for that kitty danny . Sorry I couldn't resist. That's just plumb depressing. Nice catch tho

They never got past 70170 in the live auction so must have went PT. $18 valuation don't seem right.

If that cat brought 18$ the 2 cats I have there will b 18cents apiece

Raccoon are tomorrow (Monday).

Coyote, beaver, raccoon,muskrat, otter, then wild foxes.

I won’t complain about my $60 cat then. It was no where near that nice

Not a chance for my southern cats if DC's cat brought $18.

Just dam!

hope that's a typo ?, if not i would be up set also

Danny, call them and raise some stink. Not what. I wanted to say! That was a load of crap to sell a cat like that., that cheap.

^^^Im lubing up tonight to get canooked in the morning. Canadian sale to Canadian bribers. WOW.

Wow danny, that's a rugged price on a cat of that caliber. Missing a "0" at the end of the $'s + the first number should be more than a "1".
The sound you hear is the sound of the western cat trappers calling their Ford dealerships to cancel their 2021 order.

.....I think western coyote trappers will be doing the same thing after tomorrow

None of my cats sold, fairly disappointing

Several of us sent cats to FHA a couple of years ago from Kentucky. I know they were January/February cats and many of them graded southern up there and brought 10.00 each. I saw many of the guys cats and they WERE NOT southern grade cats. I have never gotten a good explanation as to how that happened. I sent cats to NAFA for 25 years and never had one grade as southern.

Coyotes are moving right along .

active bidding on heavy coyotes....at least that market's not dead yet

I called this morning. I think there was a mistake. I am optimistic it will get sorted out.

Coyote sounding pretty good. D colors are down a bit.

Lot 152 just went for 78$

157 - 159.for 86$

coyotes going way above starting valuations right now. quite a few lots selling at $70-90.

160 78$

Lots of dropping and raising mid lots.

Lot 187 - 188. 74$

225.226 $74

Glad to hear some encouraging news on the coyotes

No interest in eastern.

nope, nobody wants easterns. bummer.

381 - 384.$32

Had one in 499 that went for $12

The fat lady has sung fellas. She will sing all day I am afraid. It helped me start planning my fall. Looks like a deer stand is in my fall plans as well as a little fishing and bird hunting. LLL

I did not start watching until too late and saw that my two garbage coyotes, damaged ones at the bottom of my catalogue went for 48. I missed the previous 30 coyotes I had but at this point I’m guessing I’ll be happy with whatever I got.

If there westerns you did ok ,,, easterns not so much

Like yours red, if you had any at auction, they were all westerns.

Already on beavers!? Did they give up on the eastern coyotes?

yeah it went fast. beaver going faster

MM the tip of the hammer did not get much action on most easterns.

not even demand from the hatter market it seems. maybe it'll show up in PT.
coon starting now

"Is there any interest in any coon at the moment".
Answer: No.
raccoon mostly withdrawn.

Ugly

Keep sending.

WOW

got enough for another sale go get some more another million should help

wow no coon market... not even western heavies.... think i seen one lot of 5x select sell at $20 maybe 5 lots total sold

a few rats sold, $0.80 to $2.75. vast majority unsold.

pretty big string of 3x went for 2 bucks... not sure of grade

some demand for otter

Crap



Double crap

stealing

Dang. They already went through the beaver before I got back from milking the cows this morning.

Was late on the coyotes. Anybody else have any info on how they did on their lots?

Sold all mine in February .I was happy, I am happier, to see this clean up sale do as well as it did on westerns very happy really.

Western yotes- weren’t too bad.
Eastern yotes- mostly unsold
Beaver- mostly unsold
Muskrats- low and unsold
Wild mink- unsold. No interest
Coon- “is there any interest? No.“ All unsold outside of a couple lots.
Gray fox- Seven lots sold between $1 and $6.

Some otter and red fox sold.

Overall, there’s a lot of fur staying in North Bay.

If you go to Youtube and watch the live auction, you can scroll through the timeline history, back to the beginning of the morning. So you can scroll around and watch all of your lots.

-NC

The Government is going to have to give some "Bail-out" money for trappers

gonna have to make it up with volume i guess.

It's that bad Wall St. Is dropping too!

U missed economics class in school didn't ya?

Wissmiss probably has a better idea of buying strategy than most of us but I would think that if you want to buy fur that is up there but want to get it as cheap as possible (knowing there isn't much competition) you just wait until you can dicker for them PT. No reason to bid at all during live auction.

Therefore, we'll see how much fur actually got bought later, not necessarily right now.

This is exactly what I believe is happening. More so with the current state of everything. It’s a buyers market at this Time in this situation.

The ole NAFA strategery.

Too much fur on hand for the current demand.Gonna have to quit supplying until the old fur is cleared up and the buyers start competing for fur.
Just too much in the pipeline right now.Internationally,a buyers market for sure.They can get all they need without having to compete for whats available.

Go back and read the bottom of the page on the order of sale on page two. PT buying is done after the sale ends today.

Was just going by what happened yesterday. I had 1 or 2 cats sell during sale but ended up moving 11 at the end of the day.

A clarification on the PT buying. The original announcement said that PT buying would end when the final hammer dropped today.

Today’s auction ended a lot sooner than was anticipated, so they are now accepting PT offers through the end of the business day today. Which I think is fair. At least as far as the original rule is concerned. I know there is a lot of heated discussion about PT sales in general and I don’t want to open that whole can or worms.

I know that I personally submitted a few PT offers at 11 AM North Bay time, while the auction was still going on. They were unable to get back to me until just now and were considering my offers.

I'm hoping alot of beavers move pt,

The following is a quote from the FHA Website on the Order of Sale under the Buyers tab:



And the announcement at the beginning of the auction this morning reminded the buyers that PT Sales was only available after the items had been offered on the auction floor and that anyone wanting to make purchases via PT had to do so prior to the final hammer of today's sale. They further stated that PT Sales would not be available after today until some undisclosed time this fall.

Note: I had not seen the post by Wissmiss before I posted this but I do agree that extending the PT until close of business today seems reasonable. I also believe it is reasonable for FHA to close PT sales for a month or two after today to encourage folks with needs to buy what they need now.

Thank you QuietButDeadly. Nice to have some one agree with me.

Absolutely! I hope they clear some stock out so we can move on at some point!

Accounts are already updated if you sold anything.
Western coyotes were not terrible but 96 bucks for my top one is a far cry from 230 of last year.

Dave B gives you two thumbs up for all the info you put out there.

Hats off for all the work they did on pictures of the wolves and gulo posted for the buyers

Just an observation from almost 60 years of trapping and selling fur. I have never in my life sold a number 1 female fisher for 12 dollars nor have I sold 3X muskrats for 2.50 at the value of money today that 17" inch beautiful rat cannot even buy me a coffee at Dunkins! It is extremely apparent that for all intents and purposes there is no wild fur market, these prices do not even reflect speculation, they are almost of no commercial value, in 1968 i sold my rats for $1.30 nose count with the kits and damaged out, in the crash of 89 which was the worst in my career I still sold my 3x/Xl rats for 3.00 I had hoped that somehow there would still be enough market world wide to have fur be of some value, it has no value! when a beautiful winter muskrat cannot buy a cup of coffee for all intents and purposes they have no value! What is next?

Question for you FHA people. Two of my coyotes ended up in a lot that was not in the catalog. I now see that they sold for $15 each. Any one know what this lot number means?

159957 1X-LG II HVY-SEMI A-B

Things might go better in future, late year or early next year, might be better to sell gfw. Unless ok with waiting for your to a year. I talk about coon prices

Has anyone had a beaver castor update?

I think that means they were sold over the summer. Sometime between the April online sale and today’s live auction. Just a hunch.

There are any number of folks with those type lots. Mostly coyotes.

As a buyer FHA just posted that they will have a online auction starting Sept 4 an running until Sept 11. For all the unsold goods from this sale.

Sad state of affairs for sure. There is a wide range of fur harvesters.
Some guys in the bush absolutely depend on money from a winter's fur harvest to heavily subsidize their way of living.
Some guys trap for a hobby that don't need the money. (I lost $4-500 trapping muskrats a few years ago. I don't do it anymore.)
Rural kids drive around in Dad's pickup burning Dad's gas while they spotlight coon.
Coyotes will always need harvested because of their predatorial nature. They will be harvested whether they're worth $100 or whether an ADC man traps them for pay.
Same with beaver.
Hopefully the market will come back, but until then I'll keep swinging a hammer and running a chainsaw.

Interestingly my coyote average this year is within a few cents of half of last years average. Last year $66.83, this year $33.40. Still have three western cats that had presale valuations of around $650 to $700 each. I'd take $650 for all three together right now and be thrilled. Oh yeah and one at NAFA that I guess I'll just donate being the sort of guy I am.

I wonder if they're be any limits at this Sept FHA video sale...? I'm sure they'll find more buyers at say 20% of the this sale's valuation. Sort of like NFA a few years back saying, "we need to find the 'floor' of the market"...

Thanks.

I think there will be some sort of limits or valuations. FH will want to somehow protect the buyers that purchased goods yesterday and today at the live auction.

If FH starts unloading goods for what ever they are offered, todays buyers will feel like they got......

FH is in a tight spot and they are walking a fine line to try and keep every one happy.

Should be interesting........

Finished that for you!

No comment.

Guess we arent “all in this together”?!

very well put
X2

my better beaver didn't sell, the rest weren't pretty

Well said Guy Johnson!!!!

I sat out the last 2 years and strictly hunted coyotes.sold all of them to groenwold.I plan on hunting coyotes but (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) I was putting them up when they were bringing 15.00.my plan more steelhead fishing hunt thru dec and early Jan for totes and not set a trap.

greg s with fur harvesters told me when nafa closed that fur harvesters would not carry fur over from one year to the next you might not have seen any thing yet

Every one In the fur business will tell you exactly what you want to hear.

not sure thats something a lot of guys want to hear if it means selling cheap

If FH isn’t going to carry over any fur, what are they going to do with it. Burn it??

At this point, there are some items that no one wants, even if FH gave them the pelts.

FH is truly stuck between a rock and a hard place. I wouldn’t want to be Mark Downey and his team. They are doing the best they can to get through a difficult time. Folks need to cut them some slack.

Wouldn't make any sense to hold over pelts with no value, regardless of how many there are.

I believe the pelts they are holding over are the good pelts. They have value. They may increase in value after the corona shutdown is gone when buyers can show up. No sense giving them away during the shutdown.

Totally agree with wissmiss. Going to be a looooooong time before we see respectable prices on fur. Also that doesn’t include the possibility of a recession and or inflation. Some of us are old enough to remember the early 80’s.

Dirt, I think a lot of pelts left have value, as it APPEARS just the very best sold, along with some of the lesser value pelts. A lot of what didn't sell is good stuff they were not going to give away. (as of yet) But there is also a lot of fur with no value in this market and with no speculative buyers it will be a while before such pelts sell. I don't think they will be able to justify the cost of storage, and have to toss them.

FHA Condition of Sale
11. Unsold pelts are not returnable. They will be re-offered on subsequent sales until sold or in the case of poor quality skins to be declared “ No Value” . Skins that have no commercial value will be turned over to the Ministry of Natural Resources for disposal. These skins will appear on your printout as “no value”.

They have already put the money into grading them and putting them into lots......would take more then one sale season for them to cut their loses and declare them no value. Plus the uproar from the trapping community is not something they are looking for.

Not going to happen this year but what might happen this trapping season is the lower end stuff that always gets sent in might be graded harder. Would not surprise me to see more trappers receiving "no Value" grades on stuff that use to be III or DMG. Would not blame them in this environment.

Any low grades of fur not sold after two years-pelts with no offers-should be disposed of.That means kept out of the market pipeline.
Hoarding stuff with no market/value is a mental illness.
Trappers also need to quit putting fur like that on the international market.

Thats what sold going by the posts hete, Boco.

Most guys posting say their better stuff didn't sell.

Boco drives a Prius

Turns out my cat problem was a typo. That cat did not sell.

I think fur will move as soon as the media quits screaming about the zombie virus and everything else starts moving.

I dont think you understood what I wrote.
The good quality stuff held over has value,Just not enough offered at the estimation of the auction house.The poor quality stuff that sold has value also.
I'm talking about low grade mink,possums and other fur that has been sitting in storage,and accumulating with no offers.

Amen brother!!

I'm not even sure low grade junk fur even competes with better to average stuff? I think the junk collectors buy this stuff and that is their only interest. Of course, now when they are selling good stuff at junk prices, it could be different. Why buy junk, when you can get better stuff at the old junk prices?

Do you think a teeny bopper buying a coat with coon trim knows the difference between AB colors or C colors?

They probably don't even know it is raccoon dog. C color is not junk fur. Junk fur would be section III or lower depending on species and price.

It Is when It's compared to AB colors..

caught one out in the middle of nowhere all pasture for miles..... was the prettiest silver coon you ever seen.... out of cpl thousand coon ive trapped and dogged in my life that one always comes to mind.... man i wish id have got it tanned and made a hat!!

[ 15.00] | |
96- 9028 STR 65 3X-2X SELECT A-B| |
1 | |
[ 15.00] | |
96- 9029 END 6 ** 71 ** | |
---------- 2-----------------------------------------------------------|-------|--------------
[ 12.50] | |
96- 9030 STR 72 3X-2X SELECT C | |
1 | |
[ 12.50] | |
96- 9031 END 6 ** 78 ** | |
---------- 2-----------------------------------------------------------|-------|--------------
[ 11.50] | |
96- 9032 STR 82 3X-2X SELECT D | |
1 | |
[ 11.50] | |
96- 9033 END 6 ** 88 ** | |
---------- 2-----------------------------------------------------------|-------|--------------
[ 8.00] | |
96- 9034 STR 91 3X-2X I A-B| |
1 | |
[ 8.00] | |
96- 9035 END 6 ** 97 ** | |
---------- 2-----------------------------------------------------------|-------|--------------
[ 6.00] | |
96- 9036 STR 120 3X-2X I C | |
1 | |
[ 6.00]

I can hear it already.........By gum I'm gonna trap whether fur is worth anything or not!

Does anyone know where the Sale Results are? Or did they not make them public yet?

80 rats up there from the last sale, all but 3 were better size and grade, none sold. I had 6-4x-5x coons and a couple smaller, all average to average plus grade, non sold.
5-6 years ago during better prices the traps and gear I owned may have been worth 7-10K. Today that stuff would be worth 30-40 cents on the dollar of that except for the canoes. That is a very low investment and my 40 years of adult trapping have had marginal returns but I was able to trap and enjoyed the experience. Compare that to those with 3-5 times that in investments and fur income a significant portion of living income or those invested in supplies, tanning, etc. I don't like what we are going though but it is tolerable for me where for many this is a significant loss in income, assets and wealth.
Bryce

must be your first time ? it's always 48 hours or more .

The results of the live auction won’t be posted for several days and then it will only be averages. The complete catalog with prices probably won’t be posted for several weeks, maybe several months.

Right now FH is getting ready to start their online auction for the unsold goods. Getting that sale ready is top priority.

The entire staff at FHA is doing the very best they can given the current situation - dismal fur prices, little demand for fur, closed borders, covid, you name it. I think folks just need to chill and let them do their job,

Does any one remember the “old days” - a trapper shipped his/her fur to Hudson Bay Company for one of their auctions. Several months later you received a letter in the mail with a grade sheet and a check. And you were happy. Not the least bit concerned about the length of time it tool.

My prices got posted on my account all coyote sold but that was it, no coon fox or cat.

I know that is the way it is. They make the process to labor intensive. With a few PC's and a little programming it could all be done in real time. I watched some of the sale on youtube & couldn't believe they were shuffling papers and writing on papers. They should be using PC's and the results would be ready at the drop of the last hammer.

"I dont think you understood what I wrote.
The good quality stuff held over has value,Just not enough offered at the estimation of the auction house.The poor quality stuff that sold has value also.
I'm talking about low grade mink,possums and other fur that has been sitting in storage,and accumulating with no offers."\

I agree with Dirt that low quality fur sitting there has no bearing on the price of high quality stuff .Pretty much there for the taking and nobody wants it. A high quality possum is worth as much as a low quality red fox or whatever.....Lower end may be all that sells- you know, the ones everyone said they were gonna tan the last few years.

Amen brother preach it. Lol

I remember a lot of trappers complaining about prices! Only difference between two trappers getting together now and then to talk about prices is we do it on the computer in real time. They did it months later when the check came in.

I know what you mean wissmiss and respect your opinion. The markets the market, this sale should not have surprised anyone that has remotely followed world events. But trust me they where chomping at the bit for the checks and
B$%% just as much about the prices as we do!

wissmiss you know as well as every body else that fh has to sell something to keep the lights on you feel sorry for them they can do what they want there has been a lot of buyers gone because the auctions kept dropping prices for several years now how about them how about the lure and bait makers no longer here how about all the trappers no longer trapping who had control of the furs that was suppose to know what they were doing way before this virus like 2013 on just who started this down fall

Eb after the FBI problems in Seatle with auctions there has to be a paper trail of buyer #'s entered. Remember that one broker may be buying for several people and he or she holds up a flash card with a number of the buyer they were working the bid for.

True, one broker may be buying for multiple buyers. But he doesn’t usually hold up a flash card for each buyer, too many numbers to keep track of.

The auctioneers knocks down the lot to the brokers number (which is on a small stand in front of him). When the auction is over, the broker takes a printout of all his purchases and tells the gals in the office which lots to invoice to which buyers.

Hey wissmiss,if a broker is bidding for several buyers,can he bid against himself,if two or more of his buyers want the same lot?

only if he owns the fur in the lot

Good question. Not quite sure how he would do that, but there is probably a way.

Most brokers have a wide variety of clients and I’m not sure how often that situation will come up.

I know one broker that has multiple customers for “the zoo”. Wolves, wolverine, bears, etc. he usually just bought all the goods he could in the customers price range and then sorted it out later. You would see him after the auction. Papers spread out every where figuring out who gets what. Trying to keep every one happy.

"if a broker is bidding for several buyers,can he bid against himself,if two or more of his buyers want the same lot?"

I don't believe that's ethical. The broker is supposed to be working in the buyers best interest. Either divide the string or reach some agreement before hand.

Sounds like P.P. And usually the customer with the highest price level got the lot, with a few exceptions.

P.P. retire in early July.

who is P.P.?

you know him MB coonguy

wolfer is right the buyer that is willing to give the most is the one that gets his order filled first by the broker buying for him no matter what they bring say he has a buyer willing to give 25 another will give 20 they sale for 20 the one willing to give 25 gets them untill his order is full

if 2 guys have the same bid its usually who had the first bid who gets it

Those may be the right and ethical things to do. But how do you make sure that is happening?? Are there broker “police”?.

I know of no rule that requires a broker to open his order book for inspection. I know of no broker that is willing to share his order book with any one. Brokers can be very protective of their orders and their customers.

Bottom - just because it is the ethical thing to do, doesn’t mean it always happens that way. I know from personal experience.

lots of shenanigans played in the auction game ... livestock, equipment, and im sure fur trade too !!

i remember in early 2000 maybe 03 or 04 me and a buddie shipped to nafa delivere down to bridgewater ... he took a advance i didnt... his sold mine didnt...lol

i guess i should have said if your operating with a broker you can trust thats why a lot buy for them self instead of going through a broker which way do you go wissmiiss through any broker or one you know and trust or buy your own

Ok just got that

That's why it's called the skin game. The animals aren't the only ones that get skinned in the fur trade.