GFW WESTERN BOBCAT MARKETING PROGRAM

***GFW WESTERN BOBCAT MARKETING PROGRAM***

There are a few Western guys that are likely happy to see that there is still a potential fair market for Westerns as the last auction sure didnt seem too promising with most held over.

how bout western PA?

Do u tag them?

They don't want them rusty bellied house cats!!!

I know pcr2 somehow they skipped Missouri

We will still buy and have markets for all other section cats. But when you are in more commercial sections it makes more sense for us to just buy them outright as $25 selling and marketing fee isn’t realistic on cheaper bobcat.

I'm not a cat trapper, but this is an interesting proposition; I like it.
Adapt or die.

Must they have cities tag on for u to buy them or can u put tag on for trapper?

All cats must be tagged with CITES prior to us receiving them whether we market them for you or buy them.

^^^^^ yup sounds interesting

Sounds like a good deal if you have quality fur.

The catch is that darn cities tag. FH pickup person puts them on! U can't just get them put on within a couple hundred miles (round trip) some times.

How are you assessing a value for insurance? Are you going to inform shippers of that value before their cats leave the country? Can shippers get their cats back if the value is not compatible??

Good questions,I have 33 high end cats.
Have her that many at FH's also.

so if the buyer is not paying commission, CITES, shipping or any other fees, why is the customer paying $557 for a $500 cat?

So one buyer determines the price he wants to pay?The reason you send to auction is so you can get more than one buyer interested thus with multiple buyers you get a higher price.
When building a bobcat coat the buyer wants to choose from multiple skins so they get the correct colors.The reason the Western skins did not sell at Fur Harvesters was because there was no access to Canada for foreign buyers.It had nothing to do with price levels.I would expect by spring Fur Harvesters will figure a way to access these buyers.
Looking thru this presentation above the figures do not add up as presented.

The skins will be seen by multiple buyers from many countries. The service we are providing gives them no need to travel across the world when they have the same skins sitting right in front of them. GFW has been selling many skins of all species all summer in many countries. The business is definitely difficult so we have spent the last few years doing everything we can to continue finding new markets and also completely new marketing methods in order to ensure you the trappers have ways to market all of your skins. This method just happened to flourish during the pandemic. We are simply offering you access to a system that is working for GFW in a COVID or non-COVID world. Western bobcat are a high value skin that we can afford to trace each trappers goods through our system and give you the benefits.

If a customer wants to pay $557 for a lot of bobcats, he must be at a maximum $500 bid in the auction room. The auction charges fees and commission from both sides.

Monster Toms, to answer your insurance question.. This would be a very rare occurrence. In all the years in business we have never had to issue an insurance claim on fur, yet we still have never not insured a shipment of fur. We would give you a reasonable value based on our best estimate of your cats.

Consigning involves a lot of trust. Apparently, your last two questions are not worthy of a response. I prefer the way Colorado runs their auction. Same with the ATA.

If I get a flat rate of $25 per sale why would care what I sell for? My incentive is to sell many at any price.

Probably be best to call the guy in the first post where it says....for more info, contact Bryce@ then a phone number.

The buyer can get a $557 cat through this method for what a $500 cat through the auction example would ultimately cost. The same $557 total cost to buyer. At the auction the buyer is maxed out at $500 hammer price to meet the $557 total after commissions.

Sounds interesting a new way to market western heavy Bobcats. How long would this marketing process take and would we be able to track our fur while it is in your possession? Would you have receive dates to be marketed by dates?

I just don't understand the process that GFW is presenting here?Their presentation and answers to questions seem really vague to me.Maybe wissmiss could explain this process/proposal GFW is presenting?

It looks like once you turn over said cat it's no longer yours, like any auction other than state run auction,( nafa ,fha ) it's gone. As I read it. They have it till it sells and then you give up the right to say yes or no. Imo how I read it. imo

Won't want mine...good luck everyone else.

Just try it out with a few cats instead of trying to find fault right off the bat,then make up your mind.You can split them up-send some to fha and some to gfw,then make up your mind based on experience not what if's.
I'd give it a shot if he was doing that with sable or lynx.
Like Trump said what have you got to lose at this point.

I think Boco has the right idea. Give it a shot with a few and see what happens.

Does GFW bundle cats or sell them individually. If individual a buyer might lose bids and end up with mismatched skins not suitable for something large like a coat. I am just curious. Of course GFW knows their business.

I second Boco's take on it.

I would assume Groenewald (and most other international dealers) sell in matched bundles. The size of the bundle depending on the intended purpose. Fewer pelts for a vest, more pelts for a full length coat.

I haven’t studied Groenewald ‘s plan thoroughly, so I don’t know exactly what he is proposing but given the current state of fur prices, having another option for selling pelts can’t hurt. In fact, for trappers with better quality western bobcats, it might be a good idea.

We won’t know for quite some time, maybe even a year, how this is going to work, so we will just have to wait. I’m sure multiple trappers will participate in his plan.

X2
I tried out their mail in system a few years ago...I was pleasantly surprised on how well it went.

I

Before GFW came to New York I read the horror stories on here. My experience has been 180* from that. I've sold to them at their truck and even shipped pallets of fur to them. Never had an issue.

If fur dealer A sells fur cheaper to end users, then fur dealer B will have to meet the new lower prices. Seller A just set the market price. Trapper loses.

The Canadian buyers for them bought all the lynx and marten presented to them on their pick-up routes. Actually their prices were better than FHA final prices. But in this market who knows what happens tomorrow.

There are no final prices at FHA for lynx or marten. Most not sold yet.

I too have had nothing but positive experiences with Groeny.

Granted it was with beaver, coon, and muskrat
rather than high-end western bobcat but you
get the picture.

I will have no issues dealing with Groeny this upcoming season.

GROENY ROCKS!!!!!

walleyed

Will the pelts be presented raw or tanned to the buyers?

ML

That is an interesting question. Hopefully we will get an answer.

I as many others have had great experiences "selling" to Groenewold. But this is a "consignment" program.
Two completely different aspects of fur commerce.

For a number of years, GFW has offered a consignment program to small dealers and trappers with large quantities of Raccoon. I wonder if any one on here has participated in that program and how it worked out for them.

Lets say I send GFW 5 random dried western cats for this program.Can anyone tell me what would the process be for them to sell them for me ?

Dirt, That works both ways, If fur dealer "A" pays more money for a particular pelt than fur dealer "B", the trapper wins! The total guarantee and complete protection from "getting less" that you're looking for is just not a realistic expectation, from any market for any type of traded goods. You appear to have a pretty negative outlook and I can understand it from the current state of the fur market. But, that's life's up's and down's. Just don't trap when it's not worth the expense.

Call GFW and ask them the procedures.

Thank you all for the kind words and I understand some of your concerns.

Here is how the process will work
1: ship your western cats to GFW with name address phone number and license number
2: we will put additional tag on each skin to identify back to trapper
3: once we get enough quantity we will apply cites and ship skins to Europe
4: once skins arrive to Europe I will dress all of the skins. (This is for your best interest as once skins are dressed with brightener the cats look clearer and better) dressing skins takes around 20 days
5: we will lot the skins by size, color, grade, etc.
6: the buyers will be informed the skins are ready
7: buyers will come to check skins
8: once skins are sold and GFW has been paid. We will send you your check with your grades and prices the skins sold for

I have spoke with many good western bobcat customers over the last few months throughout Europe and they are excited about this new process. Dressed ready available skins close to the customer is how we feel the future of this business will be. We are doing it on many items now in China as well.

Better bobcats are one of the few items that is still in good demand in this industry. I can’t set the market prices but my job will be to get you the most money for wherever the market is. My goal with this entire program is to put these skins in the hands of the right people who really need them. Our service and marketing method is top notch!

As always, thank you for all the support and I look forward to working with you.
Feel free to call me with any other questions.

Bryce

How can you pay to dress the skins,and still pay the trapper what they sold for,minus your $25 presumably?You must be able to get them dressed very cheaply if $25 dollars covers the cost of dressing and your overhead and leave a profit?
Or am I missing something.

what happens if something happens in tanning process and damages the pelt.....trappers pays for it by down graded pelt?? should slip marks or sewing show in finished pelts the pelt is down graded? what happens if the dresser damages pelt during tanning process? can the trapper set a minimum price? one the cat tanned its useless to to get back and then try to sell on state sales?

We will finance the dressing but obviously that will come off of the sold price. We have insurance and the tanneries have insurance. For many years now we have been dressing our bobcats before selling. All of the skins I have sold this year have been done this way.

thank you, but you will not be paying for raw pelts now? ( or the buyers of them?) now you will be grading them and buying them after tanning process correct? basically acting as an agent, like the auction houses?

The skins will be put in lots and sold after dressing. We have found this to be the best method for selling bobcats. If a customer receives an order the skins are right there available for them ready to manufacture.

Yes kind of like an agent. Providing a better service at a much cheaper cost than an auction house which will in the end benefit the trapper.

will you be running a route to pick up western cats? shipping 100 or bundle of cats adds up? not trying to be negative and I applaud your efforts for the fur trade!

Its an interesting concept.
People will have to try your service and then decide whether its better than a raw fur auction or not.
Times change and we have to adapt to keep the industry viable.

Contact me if you’re interested in marketing with us and we will work something out for shipping.

ok have roughly 50 now and season just around the corner......thank you

Sounds like a PT sale? I thought we didn't like those?

depends on who benefits the most! lol ....the cat market is not going to be pretty this year.

You know how most tanneries operate. Tan at your risk. It is risky.

All dressing plants have a percentage of what they call blowout in the dressing process.
It is around 5 % when a new dressing plant is starting up.It is considerably less in established dressers and dyers,less than 1%.
Pelts wrecked at the dressing plant that is not due to poor skins to begin with are covered by the plant.
Most blowout at a fur dressing plant is due to the fleshers who operate the shaving machines.That is why the second highest paid position at a fur dressers is head flesher.Established dressers wont be in buisness long if there is excessive blowout.

yes dirt ...I agree tanning is very risky! I would prefer to sell raw skins.

I have used 3 tanners. 2 I fired. The other one is on thin ice. I once asked the local furbuyer/FHA agent which tannery he prefered. He said the one he wasn't mad at right now!

Life is a gamble---so is the fur market!

IMO tanning skins before selling them is only to the benefit of the buyer not the trapper as presented here.The buyer is assured of his skins with no risk in tanning. If the skins slip or are damaged in dressing guess who's rear end the money is deducted from? I can assure you it is not the buyer.

The loss in dressing is factored in their overhead, so if that loss in eliminated because of a % of uncertainty, price should go up.

GFW, if you read any of this I have a question. If the cats will be dressed before being offered for sale, if your not going to buy them but only market them, will you accept cats dried fur in? The damage due to improper handling or other things will be reduced substantially. I cant think of any reason not to stretch and dry fur in.

GWF: "We will finance the dressing but obviously that will come off of the sold price"

So the question has been asked twice and still has not been answered or am I just slow?

Sounds to me like a COST associated with the sale of the pelt so if it "comes of the sold price" then it simply replaces other fees that are charged at Auctions.

$25 flat fee plus $25 (????) dressing fee equals 17 PERCENT total fees paid by trapper at a $300 average.



GWF: "I can't set the market prices but my job will be to get you the most for your fur wherever the market is"

This is my biggest concern. I don't see any incentive in this program for GWF to market your fur for as much as they can get. Actually seems to be set up just to move product because that is what a flat fee does. It's like getting paid piece work. You know how much you get paid to build a widget so you just build as many as you can.
At an auction house they protect you by setting the market with a minimum bid and they don't sell your stuff for cheap. Commissions incentivize the selling agent to get as much as they can for your goods. This system sounds like you will never know how your fur graded or what the minimum was (if any) until you get a check back in the mail.

By circumventing the auction house this will have an overall negative effect on prices near as I can tell. Unless GWF plans on demanding premium prices for the furs but with no sealed bid process it just becomes a negotiated sale. "hey what will you give me for these"

GWF: "We have sold over 8,000 bobcat skins in the last 8 months" Great but at what prices? On the cheap and bringing down prices? NAFA fire sale skins? Partly to blame for FHA not selling any?

I am not knocking GWF. Have never done business with them and wouldn't know one of them if they punched me in the face I am just skeptical of the overall effect to the cat market this will have if it becomes popular.

This system doesn't seem to protect the seller or the market.

ML

Could the $25 tanning be value added tho Mercer?
Say the $300 cat worth $350 ?

Good points Mercer. Maybe that will get a reply.

And so far as the dressing - if GWF is willing to deal with all the skins that don't make it through the tanning my hat is off to them. After all these years still way too many skins show up at state auctions that will never make it through the tannery and the trapper thinks he has diamonds.

And all the skins that were pulled off the board too soon and get bald spots, the green bellied road kill that you boraxed to try and keep the fur on, the sewn bullet holes and knife cuts, the one you ripped pulling it off the stretcher or forgot that one push pin six inches up from the tail so you you super glued a dryer sheet in it to slip it through the auction etc. etc. A guy will have to think twice before sending them off knowing that he will STILL OWN THEM ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE DRESSING! Big difference between that and a nearly anonymous auction.

So where will those skins go? My bet is your state association sale.

Which bring me to my next point - I a not a fan of anything that - dare I use the term, "defunds" the state associations. Fur sale are about the only way an association makes any money.



ML

I didn't think of it like that Hippie. Good point!!!

And speaking of that - how the heck do you grade dressed fur? Never been involved in that. Is that a thing?
Maybe just never been around it so it's hard for me to think of anything other than a dried pelt all nicely stretched and easy to measure and see.

A finished pelt just looks like a bath towel hanging on a hook.

ML

Mercer, i use to market alot of my fur through a state auction and through the years it turned into a junk yard.
Was the place for the coon hunters to haul in their matted up dog chewed coon hides to get whatever they could
for them, price's didn't matter to them. Lot of green fur, rotten fur, etc.

What i saw from all of this was buyer's just came there to get cheap fur, they wouldn't bid very high even if it was
nice well put up pelts, they could buy volumn and get a decent string of good hides from all the junk in there for
little of nothing.

My cats here won't even make decent floor mat's in a pick up so this won't affect our 'cat market', lol. I will say id
have to give this idea a try, i like new idea's instead of 'this is how we've always done things' approach. Id not send
an entire season's catch (never did that with NAFA or anyone else) but id sent them a couple of cats to see if this
method of selling was for me or not.

Good point...value added should go to the trapper and or split w/GFW. Like selling lumber...green, air dried and kiln dried. Value added at each step but possibility of degrade in the process.

How many of you western cat men have cats sitting at the FHA storage unit? These cats are waiting for a buyer to come to Canada to buy them and they may be sitting there for a long time. While Groney will be taking dressed cats to the Buyers for hands on inspection. Sounds like It might work out for everyone.

Dressing skins does have risks. However, there is risk removed for the buyer. They know exactly what they are getting. Every buyer in the fur trade discounts raw skins for the risk of fallout. If a trapper handles their fur poorly and it gets put with other skins that are handled correctly the poorly handled skins are actually subsidized by the well handled skins. In our process this does not happen. A well handled cat will in fact look better after dress. You the trapper get that benefit. We are already doing this successfully around the world. Your well handled skins will be seen dressed by many buyers and sold to the manufacturer willing to pay the most. We are generally “sellers” and don’t try to hold out for the last nickel. This may or may not benefit you. This is the exact process we use and are willing to let trappers use it if they are interested because of the high value of cats. If you have poorly handled skins it is not for you but if you have well handled cats I feel this system is very attractive. I hope this answers some questions.

We will take cats fur in. This is how we do all of our cats. We obviously never have a wire burn and save a lot of labor. Very good question.

If you have fur at FHA waiting for a buyer. Then Groeny sells to that buyer in Europe. He don't have to come to Canada to buy your fur later.

Mercer makes many good points in this discussion.My advice is to study what he says.I could have repeated what he said verbatim but I was not sure you would have taken me as serious as him.If you read my posts you will see that my questions lead to responses by GFW. As far as sending lower end fur to association auctions.Out west the association auctions bring out the best fur and buyers in the US as far as Western cats.The buyers pay a very high price for the goods.When you sell thru your association you are paid within a couple weeks and sometimes the same day.You will not have to wait months or years and have no idea what you will get.You can control the price of your fur you are selling with reserves.I am 110% behind selling thru your associations as that is how they fund themselves which is then returned by their actions to everyone who traps.

I like the hidden Western heavy Bobcat market forecast GFW is giving here in this thread. Makes me fill like investing in some gas and my time looking for some A bellied Bobbers. The option of leaving them skin side out would save a huge amount of time and I would think less damage in the tanning process plus keep the fur protected until it is tanned.

I kinda got the same little tingly feeling about the forecast.
The part about fur in till tanned not so much. Sounds like “in for a penny, in for a pound “

Yea, its a great sign when a fur buyer wants to be a fur broker. The market must be hot

Any insight as to what cats would bring marketed over there dressed?? That is the big question that comes to my mind.

Exactly.

Hopefully a tannery don't turn them into religious cats for you.

Are those Zaggers?

At the OTC sales in Oregon there are always a few eye poppers that will fetch sky high prices. Sometimes I think it is buyers trying to show off or prove themselves to others....but whatever (right?) when those cats bring in the big bucks. I'm wondering if now those special eye popper cats don't become run of the mill $500 cats without competitive bidding?

We all know what top lot western cats have done in recent years at NAFA and FH.

Without completive bidding ok your cats maybe sell or not, a buyer gets the pick of the litter at his price, the broker makes money for every cat sold sure money for both of them not so for the trapper. Bobcats are the only spotted Legal traded pelt in the world and western cats make up the smallest amount of thousands of cats they should command competitive bidding in my opinion.

Didn't Groney say the dressed hides will be shown to multiply buyers.That sounds like competitive bidding to me.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Are you being channeled by Plunger?

Yea....wheres Plunger at?

When it comes time to sell my rats and coon I need all the help I can muster. So a bit of apple polishing can't hurt.

Where I come from we call that Knob polishing😮

I'll polish apples thank you.

Here is what he said.........."Your well handled skins will be seen dressed by many buyers and sold to the manufacturer willing to pay the most. We are generally “sellers” and don’t try to hold out for the last nickel. This may or may not benefit you."

Not sure that really describes a competative bidding process.

I wonder how that actually works. Do they not sell that cat to the first buyer hat offers to buy it? Do they have a minimum offer in mind? How do they decide how many potential buyers get to look at it before they say "Sold"! And over what time period.

I think this has been covered. If you are getting $25 per sale. What do you care what they sell for? You are going to sell! I know I would.

"We are generally “sellers” and don’t try to hold out for the last nickel."

Probably put a picture of it on the internut and sell that way with covid restrictions and all.
Private treaty sale.

Ahh yep lol

wont be long and that's how all gwf fur will be marketed ......no risk to the buyer, but auction houses have been doing that for years....sellers just roll the dice and happy to play!

Well, if you're showing it to multiple buyers and I quote "we sell to the buyer willing to pay the most" how do you know it was the buyer willing to pay the most if the one willing to buy it for the least saw it first, buys it, and GWF still gets their commission?

Thats not true for FHA-they are trappers.