I have a question about Christianity.

So I’ve been trying to connect with god and I’m making sure I have all the logic I need to support myself in an argument. And I found Deuteronomy 13 which basically says to kill infidels... if there is no better context nor further evidence that negates this, what makes Christianity different than Islam, or even good at all if we are supposed to kill non-Christians?

Jesus died and rose again, power over death, He shed His blood to pay for our sins. Mohammed died, he was just a man.

God and human "logic" don't always (or even often) mesh.

That's why it's called "Faith".

can't answer your specific question. I'm sure there's some context that escapes many, but I don't think most churches hold to the "kill the infidels" doctrine. hardly any, in fact.

I hope you find God!

FWIW muslims dont worship mohammed. They believe he was gods prophet

old testament vs new testament

the old agreement and the new agreement

what the Jews must follow and what the followers of Christ must follow.

under the new agreement Jesus sets down the rules different.this may help https://archive.gci.org/articles/the-new-covenant-makes-some-biblical-laws-obsolete/

also why we now eat pork and other meats that were prohibited under old testament.

There was no Christianity until Christ. If what you seek is truly an answer, that should do it.

Well the Bible gives us many options on how we interpret scripture. If we hate people or want to kill them we can dwell in the old testament. If we want to be disciples of fairness, honesty and carry the message of believing in the goodness of God and his son we can believe and carry the message. Unfortunately as reasoning and manipulative humans we apply that which we choose so we can feel better about what we do and how we treat others. This can be done on an individual basis or whole denominations have been created based on small and narrow aspects of the 66 books. It turns out that that has become a good way to divide people and also make fortunes, both of which seem to be what we worship the most and with the most vigor today. Maybe in another 2,000 years that may evolve or change.
Bryce

Its clear from the differences in the old testament and the new testament that god is either fallible or the Bible was greatly influenced by men - as were probably all religions. The early chapters of the bible convey a perception of god that was meshed in ritual that today we would probably term pagan (exact definition not correct)

The important thing is to not get hung up on the details and to follow what Jesus taught. To be a good person and to care for one another.

Don't sweat the details, live right.

Dueteronomy wasn't written to us. It was written for us to read but its a different time. When deciples asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment He said love the Lord thy God, AND love thy neighbor. We are not to put any worldly relationship before our relationship with God. Jesus is Lord. Therefore his commandment to US is to not only love Him but love those around us. Even if they're not Christians. Its hard reading through the Bible and trying to line everything up. But with child like faith and faith as a mustard seed, continually growing, it gets easier. Praying as you read helps and asking a pastor for help with these questions is your best bet

The chapter is specifically about the Jews and to the Jews. It isn't about "infidels".

In regards to that time and that situation I might add.

I don't go to church, read the bible or watch Sunday service on t.v.
Yet I consider myself a Christian.
I believe if I live life treating people fair, I'll let God sort it out when I die..

You have grossly misread, taken out of context, and misapplied Deuteronomy 13; actually the whole book up to that point. I don't mean to come down hard on you but what you are doing is a very common mistake.

This book was written while the Jews were wandering in the wilderness, it was written specifically to them for that particular time; to keep them from going astray.

There is nothing in there directing them to "kill infidels". Read it again without a bias; God is instructing them to put to death any of their own people who start to go astray and follow other gods. Sounds rather harsh, that is true. But for the particular time it was necessary.

This is a good example of scripture that is descriptive rather than prescriptive. There is a huge difference between the two. Many off-base cults have resulted from twisting something that is merely descriptive and making it prescriptive.

i don't see infidels at all in the passage, but as others have said this is the old testament and has been fulfilled. we live under grace now and should be praying for the ones the old testament said to kill

. 13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

Thanks for clarifying Deuteronomy 13. Gone trapping had me a little scared.

The question for you is have you asked Jesus for forgiveness of your sins and have you asked Jesus to come into your heart? I know in my heart that I'm already sorted out. I know I'm not home with Jesus yet.

I can see and work with the asking Jesus to come into my heart but is there a need to ask Jesus personally for forgiveness when God had him put to death on the cross to forgive us for our sins? So that promise from God is not freely given I or we have to ask for it?

Bryce

This was God telling his people to keep themselves holy and how seriously they should take it.

On another note, God has clearly told us how he will be “sorting” us out. And if you want to be among the wheat and not the chaff, well it takes a whole lot more than to “live right”. The Bible never once says “live right” and you’ll be saved. Rather, the entire Old Testament shows that we can not “live right”. Romans 3:23 says we are all born unworthy to be in the presence of a Holy God, and we continue to be unworthy in everything we do.

Only that's not really what Jesus taught.
That's the feel good gospel, not the real one.

Jesus said stuff like: " You are blessed when all men hate you because of me .." but that doesn't sound good on motivational posters.

I've been told to look for Jesus in all scripture.
In this passage I see God giving the Israelites specific instructions (law) to fulfill. They couldn't/wouldn't do it. So they were required to bring an unblemished sacrifice for atonement of sin. This was the old covenant.
Enter Jesus. He who fulfilled the law that neither Jew nor Gentile could fulfill. Who became the unblemished sacrifice for the atonement of all our sins. This is the new covenant.

.... you’d have had to kill yourself back then to be in compliance ... Old Testament and New Testament is a contradiction.. basically an all knowing and all powerful perfect creator changed his/her/it’s mind

... and the Adam and Eve story is the equivalent of putting a piece of bacon in front of a puppy and then torturing it for taking a bite

... it’s a Levantine religion book. The same as the.. Quran.. Talmud... Torah......And maybe Lord of the Rings lol


... I know people that feel the call can find peace... wether it’s real or a mind trick .. it’s peace just the same I guess... I apologize for being a contrarian on this type of thing

The Bible is a rich history of God's salvation for his people. Some of it can be hard to understand.

God's chosen people, the Isrealites were given an impossible set of rules to follow. These rules were put in place to show their inability to be justified by following a set of rules. Rather, it showed their need for a new deal, if you will. It showed their need for Jesus. Its good to keep this in mind when trying to interpret some of the stuff you read in the OT.

I don't really see where we need to ask for forgiveness; but we have to confess our sins to God, we have to agree with him that we are sinners and and He will then forgive us of sin through the "work" of Jesus Christ's suffering, death, and taking on the penalty for our sins. We then need to have the attitude of repentance, which means turning 180 degrees away from practicing a rebellious attitude (sin) towards God. If we don't exhibit this attitude and desire of repentance I think there might be a good chance that our initial confession may not have been sincere.

Thanks, that really cleared it up for me. I’m a Christian but I’ve been trying to understand the full meaning and all the details of the Bible. I knew that god wouldn’t want me killing people who disagree which is why I asked the question, I was unsure. You cleared it up though, thanks.

Your first point is dead on Savell. Perfect description of the need for Jesus. The point about God changing his mind i feel is more about God teaching us his lesson and teaching us our need for Jesus. I know I've given my kids a little free rein so they might see that the old man knew a little bit about what he was talking about.
What happened to Adam and Eve was a result of God loving us some much he gave us free will to walk with him in perfect harmony but we fell short. Free will without temptation isn't free will.

Your point about the Bible being the same as the others, I would have to ask are you basing that off of the fact that you have a good complete understanding of them or rather just because that narrative fits your preconceived view?

Admitting I am a sinner is a whole lot different then having to do it because God did not follow through with his promise to grant forgiveness for our sins and transgressions. If God indeed did create all of us he knew from the beginning we were and are sinners. He brought a savior that he said would take away our sins. Now I can see where my repentance and asking forgiveness is important for me to do so I treat God's fellow humans better. We do seem to take advantage of the grace and mercy of God regularly and some seem to work harder at being better at sinning then others do.

Bryce

Yes Sir

... from my understanding... they all are the “Old Testament “ ... except for the Lord of the Rings lol

Similar yes. But my understanding is there are some differences including the author.

... same God ?... and same disgust for us lowly gentiles ?

Very Good points

Forgiveness is a demonstration, “forgive us as we forgive.”

Romans 10:9

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Interesting topic. It's difficult to discuss these things on the internet because everyone already has their mind made up, their own way of either dismissing these weird and violent old testament stories or of glossing them over with some Jesus-talk (not that Jesus talk is bad, it is as others have said, the point of the book). This is just too tempting to pass up, so I'll throw in my two cents.

This is a much larger topic than can be addressed in an internet post, and I'm afraid I'll leave too many important rabbit trails unexplored. First, the division between the new and old testaments isn't really that helpful here. The Bible is telling one story, and its culmination is Jesus. The god of the old testament is the same as the one in the new testament. Jesus is the embodiment of the old testament God. Understanding the story of the old testament and its meaning is difficult, and it usually leads to issues like the one being discussed here. Many people that are happy to believe the touchy-feely Jesus parts end up having a serious crisis when they begin to read the Torah and Prophets. If you can get a handle on how the old testament authors are telling the story, you'll see that God is every bit as compassionate and gracious as Jesus and that Jesus is often quite snarky and judgemental (at least with "religious" people).

The real underlying question to start with is: What is the Bible trying to communicate? I think many (maybe most) modern western Christians would say that the Bible is a sort of handbook or rulebook that explains the problem with you and your life, the way to deal with that problem (by following rules, having the right mental theology, saying the correct prayer, etc.), and so how to achieve salvation (whatever that means) and go to the happy place when you die. The problem is that the Bible isn't attempting to do that. The Bible is a story about what God is doing in the world. It's asking (and answering) all of the existential questions we all have if we take the time to think about life: Why are we here? What is the nature of the universe? What is the nature of humanity? What is the nature of God? Why is life so full of unmet potential? In addressing those questions, because you are a member of humanity and a resident of the universe, the Bible can help you understand your problems and how to deal with them. It also can introduce the idea of God's salvation and what that actually means. Why do I need to be saved? What am I being saved from?

The answers to all of these questions in the Bible have their roots in Genesis 1-3(ish), and an important part of that is what Savell mentioned about that those trees. The creation story isn't really (perhaps I should say "only") about history; it's about these existential questions that I listed above. The two trees represent a choice. Will people choose the Tree of Life as a gift from God, or will they attempt to become their own gods and so destroy themselves and each other? It's not about God testing and then punishing the people. Leading up to this point in the story, God has created a beautiful world full of potential to become better, and He put humans in that world in order to rule it under His authority. He has taken a chaotic wasteland and turned it into a garden where humans can flourish. The task of the humans was to continue that work: expand the garden, rein in those chaotic waters so that humans can thrive. God has called all of this "good" or "very good". He also says that it is "not good for man to be alone". So up to this point, God is the authority on what is good and not good. Then we are presented with a tree that offers us the authority to know good and not good for ourselves, but God says it will lead to death. I think the choice before the humans is whether or not they will rule the world as God's representatives using His wisdom that leads to life, or will they seize the power and authority for themselves? We know what they chose, because we make that choice every day. We redefine good and evil in a way that is convenient or beneficial for ourselves at the expense of others. It's also important to note that, while God says they will die when they eat of the fruit, God doesn't kill them, in fact He provides for them. They do have consequences, namely they are cut off from the source of God's life, and that's where God's mission to restore humans to their original purpose and potential starts. God isn't running around punishing the people for their choice, He's trying to bring them back and restore the blessing that they had (or could have had) in Eden.

In order to restore the Eden blessing to all of humanity (this is always mentioned as God's purpose), God decides to work with Abraham and his family. Read Genesis, Abraham and all of his descendants make the same choice that Adam and Eve did. As a result, they become slaves in Egypt, but God rescues them from that (again in order to restore blessing to all of humanity). After Israel's salvation from their oppressors, God make an agreement with the whole nation, just like He did with Abraham. Israel as a nation will live by God's wisdom in order to show the world what God's character is like, but just like all of the other humans before, they fail miserably. The Deuteronomy passage that started this thread is Moses, sitting at the edge of the promised land (somewhat symbolic of Eden) and recounting the story of Israel up to that point. He urges them to "choose life". If they, as a nation, were to represent God to the nations, they could not tolerate people who would lead the people of the nations to follow and represent other gods. Moses evidently wanted them to take that very seriously. Read Judges through Kings, and you'll see that just like Adam and Eve and Abraham's family, they do not choose life. They fail miserably. Even the greatest hero kings in the story are terribly flawed. When David has his moment before the tree, he plucks Bathsheba up and becomes an adulterating murderer. Solomon is actually depicted as a new Pharaoh. The prophets really lay into these kings and the people of Israel for failing so miserably, and the old testament ends with the nation having been destroyed the Eden blessing is still far, far away.

I'm spending way, way too much time on this, but it's a big story. Jesus enters the stage at this point as the one who will save Israel and restore that blessing, but he doesn't do it by overthrowing Rome and reestablishing Israel's kingdom or their temple. In fact, he tells them the temple will be destroyed, instead he says that he is the path to life. He then gets himself killed - hanging on a tree!

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that the Bible is a story about how God is trying to restore humanity and the world from its broken, destructive state. He isn't out to punish people for their mistakes. The natural consequences of those mistakes are more than enough punishment. In fact, the this is the concept of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) in the Bible. It's not a subterranean torture chamber where God punishes us. It's the world we've created by being our own gods. That's what God is constantly saving people from in the Bible. That's what salvation means. It's not what happens after you die. It's about what you're doing with your life now. Are you unleashing (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) on Earth, or are you expanding the Garden?

Savell is right, by the way, the Lord of the Rings is totally telling the same story. I could go on for hours, but I shouldn't.

Yeah, but even the puppies get the scraps!

Freely it was given and Freely it must be accepted you don't ask for it you declare im on your side i thank you for the gift.

Like the constitution depends who interprets it and for what purpose, just my opinion but it has been written several times over and everyone gets a different meaning from it. For me it can be interpreted in two words do good, hard to go wrong with that.

^^^^^^
Yes, but the writers of both the Bible and the Constitution had specific meaning and intent when they wrote down the words. Neither were written with the idea that future generations should reinvent the meaning and intent.

^^^^^^
Yes, but the writers of both the Bible and the Constitution had specific meaning and intent when they wrote down the words. Neither were written with the idea that future generations should reinvent the meaning and intent.

It can be hard work to arrive at a non-bias conclusion to the original intent of some things, but it is possible to do.

There's this guy who's really strong on the Old Testament and I find his insight extremely helpful when I read his commentaries on the Hebrew Scripture.

Paul.

The only scholar better than Paul at commenting on the Old Testament is another strong Christian;

Christ.

The One who wrote it by the Power of His Spirit.

If you church where they do not teach the Old Testament, run, don't walk to a Christian church that does.

Blessings,
Mark

You need to look at the forest, not just the trees. God sent his son to die at the hands of the "infidels" yet he never spoke a word against them other than to say that they know not what they do. He allowed himself to be crucified by them although he could have stopped it at any point. He asked his Father to forgive them for their ignorance. That there is the difference. One of Jesus' disciples, Peter, chopped off the ear of an infidel and Jesus chastised his friend for it. Jesus wanted people to hate the sin, but NOT the sinner, believing that every sinner (infidel) stood the chance of being saved.

We are saved through faith by grace. God’s grace because he loves us no matter what. I think it goes I am the Way the Truth and the Life meaning everlasting life. No man shall enter except by me. There is no possible way for mankind to know that Christ lived died and rose again therefore we must have faith that he did and through that faith by grace we will be granted eternity in Heaven.

The Marcions were a sect of Christianity in the 2nd century deemed heretical by the Catholic (Universal) Church in 144 AD. Marcionites believed that there were two separate Gods, a God of Wrath in the Old Testament and a separate God in Christ in the New Testament. Marcions Christology didn't allow him to believe in a Triune God, or the OT. He was severely excommunicated as a false teacher, but like many things, ideas live on. There are still sects of "Marcionites" (under different names) alive today.

The narrative of the Bible is 66 Books in the Protestant faith and 73 Books in the Roman Catholic faith. The Eastern Orthodox lies between these two depending on the region. Bottom line, Christ was the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets oracles in the Old Testament, and you can't teach/preach/understand the story accurately without reading the whole canonical book. It is available for us today via supernatural divine providence.

There is no unrighteous wrath in the Old Testament. The 2nd most important word in all of the OT (after Yahweh) is found in the crucial passage of Exodus 34:60-7. These are the revealed characteristics of our Creator. A covenantal love for His created image bearers called hêsed in Hebrew. We have no English language word that can even describe the love of God for us, so the English translators invented a new word centuries ago in an attempt.... they merged "loving" with "kindness" to try and capture Exodus 34:6-7... and called this new word; lovingkindness.



Blessings,
Mark

The way I understand it, is we have to repent from our sins before welcoming Christ into our lives. I think while God may love us no matter what, we cannot spend our entire live sinning and expect a place in Heaven with no remorse felt for our sinful actions....

^^^^^^^
Repent means to turn around and go the other direction. That happens after confession of sin and accepting Jesus's offer of eternal life.
You could never really truly repent without the help of the Holy Spirit, which we receive upon trusting in Jesus.

Someone who says they are a Believer yet has not, and refuses to turn away from sinful practices is walking a dangerous path imo.

I am not saying a Believer will not sin; the important word that is found in the new testament warns against those who "continue to practice" a particular sin. Practice implies repetition; kind of like "practice makes perfect", (but not in a good way).

I am just reading and not answering ... Learned my lesson

At this seminary, we're being taught the hermeneutical exegetical method to teach/preach Holy Scripture.
Meaning;
1. Observation: read it
2. Interpret it
3. Application of it

Wondrously our first courses starting with Genesis in the Old Testament are taught with absolute encouragement (and grades) related to ONLY doing #1 in the hermeneutical exegesis.
It's almost impossible. I mean, no interpreting, no application. Flat read it only, noting plot, characters, antagonist, protagonist, all the stuff you do if you read any other book or magazine article.

The American Church is about 50% application. 45% interpretation. 5% observation. In that order. Sadly, many pastors, preachers, priests, and ministers only spend a minimal amount of time in #1: reading the Word. Americans like it hot: whatcha got for me? What do I need to know. I'd say read it. Without trying to parse every word and sentence.

Important question: If you don't read the story front to back, yet you bring preconceived interpretations to the story, plus you're always mind drifting to "what does this mean to me?"... how accurate may your #1 really be?

I'll tell you on behalf of all I attend with, they are retooling us - and it's a wondrous thing. We just read, use the original Hebrew and Greek languages as we go, and it's pretty cool to watch unfold. God's story about Him, revealed for us to know Him, gets deep into our created souls as intended if we stop trying to figure out #2, and #3 all the time. They apply. But not until you really let the Word sink deep. Otherwise, misinterpretation is a real concern.

Try it. Read the Bible using only #1. No #2 and absolutely stay away from #3 while you do it. It's actually easier for someone brand new to the faith as they don't have many old sermons and "teachings" parked in their mind already.

If you do, you'll no doubt experience just how wondrous the Logos (Word) was meant to be.
Donna and I began to read like this early last year when I started my studies. A bit every night as a couple. We got about 10 chapters into Exodus, not a particularly emotional portion of the Good Book, and my bride got emotional. I asked her how come? She told me, "I'm understanding the story of God like never before, and I don't know, it's just getting to me." I smiled of course. And then she asked me a really good question; "How come churches don't do something like this?" Um. I told her they try. But we all can

Blessings,
Mark

It sure seems like to me that the saving by a god, from the gods wrath, is a little misplaced. Wouldn't it make more sense just to not to threaten people with torture in the first place?

I like the bacon analogy.

I like to tell people to put a bowl of candy out in plain sight of little kids that are playing. Tell them not to eat one then hide and watch. As soon as they do beat them without mercy and hold the candy theft over their head for the rest of their lives.

Looks to me like the god of the bible changed his mind also.

Now I know you are supposed to suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind but I have a real hard time doing that. I have tried but I just can't believe all those legends . Or make any sense out of stuff like worship me says god because I love you, and if you dont then I will torture you. The torture will be your fault for not loving me.

Sounds a lot like what all those people convicted of domestic abuse would say.

^^^^^^
Where did you get the idea that a person must "suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind". There is so much misunderstanding out there about faith, belief, and the nature of God; such as He will "torture" us if we are out-of-line.

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation is probably the result of centuries of poor theology and teaching by people who identify as Believers.

They were in a garden full of fruit trees, and God said don't eat from that one.

They so doing, by eating from that tree, decided how to define right and wrong for themselves, and not let God define it for them.

God knew that that ultimately leads to unhappiness.

That's why they weren't allowed do eat from the other tree, and have access to eternal life.

God doesn't want give eternal life to someone just to have them be eternally miserable.

They have to understand how God wants them to live, so they can know true happiness, before they can receive eternal life.

You never stop sinning while you are here.

The “torturing God” folks will ask, “If He is all knowing, then He knew they would eat from that tree and what would become of them, so why did He do that?”


As trappers we should understand this probably more than anyone. When we take to our trapping grounds, we set into motion a change of events that lead to a prescribed response. When that chain is broken we become intrigued by the creature and try different methods of guidance. Some even will think of this critter as “special”. We know it’s going to happen but we don’t do anything different until it does.

Just because you know everything about something doesn’t stop you from doing it.

Because we have free choice.

I don't believe in eternal torture, but that isn't my point.

God can't create someone with good character.

It has to be developed.

God said trust Me, live this way, I will show you how to live.

The snake said God's lying to you, life is better this way..

Paul said that the lessons of the OT are for our example.

You go on to read story after of people who didn't trust God.

In judges you read the common refrain "everyone did was right in their own eyes" and things were a mess.

The fruit looked good in Eve's eyes.

So God is letting mankind see for themselves.

For now.

You say to Petr, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Actually you brand him as a type of person who tells untruths (like all of us tell sometimes unfortunately). Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
What good does it do to call him out?

Then sir, you feel the prideful urge to comment on this thread where people don't believe what you do or how you do, starting your comment with "it seems to me" as you give us how you would set it up if you were god.
Where did you get your omnipotent world view?

I mean no disrespect, and you are certainly welcome to an opinion in a free country as everyone tells us we live in.
Free from what?

My grandfather, who now resides in heaven, awaiting the trumpets of the 2nd Adam, used to say when he saw people rioting on the streets or mayhem on the evening news.
"Look at all those know-it-alls. What's this world coming to. Sure wish they'd all eat a bit of humble pie."


It's not what you say.
It's how you say it.
Blessings,
Mark

Thats funny you calling me prideful. I have to go change shirts. Blew coffee all over this one.

I'm prideful. The deadliest of the seven deadly sins perhaps. The nation of Edom were the prideful ones, prone to anger. They aren't among us anymore, but we can read about them and learn if we care to.

Your typing on this forum comes across the web as prideful.
Perhaps you didn't realize it.
I thought I might lend you a brotherly hand and point it out .

We can exchange ideas about Christianity on this thread if you'd care to.
And no worries, the Spirit convicts, not me.
I'm just a trapper saved by the blood of the Lamb.


Blessings,
Mark

Are you a sinner? Does God view you that way and do you view yourself that way? That's the important question to answer.

I stay off most of these threads. I do think what I believe is as important as what you believe.

Unlike AR folks I dont try to claim your way of life needs to be outlawed. Just like to remind folks that not everyone believes in the supernatural.

Sure we're all sinners. We have to be. We're still here in a fallen world not yet made new.
We someone places their faith in Christ, (made righteous legally - my sin debt has been paid in a judicial sense) we as Protestants believe past, present, and future sins are covered by the Son's blood before our perfect Holy Father. Roman Catholics believe a bit different. Christ died only for past sins a person has. Roman Catholic faithful work with the Holy Church for present and future sins.

But sure, we still sin in this life. Head into any church and we see it. We wish it wasn't so perhaps, but Scripture clearly points out justification is instantaneous but sanctification is not.

As a Reformed Protestant, we believe that just like Adam and Eve didn't technically drop dead when they ate the fruit in the garden (sin), we don't drop in the spot in this life when we sin (it's a good thing right there), but we are dead in the greatest sense before God.

No one can stand before God as a sinner. His Glory doesn't allow it. All sinners die. Even Moses caught a glimpse, not the full on Glory. Adam and Eve would have died had God not covered them in skins. That's what the sacrifices were in the OT. A covering. No one has seen the Father except the Son, who can stand perfect in the full on Glory. The Glory that created all of everything that we rationally try and figure out.

The Good News of the OT and the NT was always a Messianic message of - It's all about resurrection. The next life. And our covering is the blood of the Son.
People say, "your God should show Himself to prove he's God." I tell 'em.... ah, you can have that, but you'd be dead. Happened all the time in the OT. Every time someone touched or peaked in the Ark - bam - dead on the spot.

Scripture tells us the wages of sin are death. We're all gonna die because all are sinners and all have sinned.
It's all about the next home.
And of course, the Spirit is promised to the redeemed, so we get scrubbed up a bunch while we wait. Usually kicking and screaming because we love to "everyone was doing evil in the sight of the Lord." Small stuff. Big stuff. I try and go 20 seconds with sinning and I smile victory! Then, bam.
Good thing God has hêsed for His chosen.

Simple to envision.
Hard to explain and figure out.
I don't really try that much.

Blessings,
Mark

Sure.

But I would offer,
it's not illogical.

Rather, it's supra-logical.

Thanks for not advocating outlawing. That'll happen soon enough.

Blessings,
Mark

not from me. i am big on freedom

Agreed.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we could prolly sit down together trapping brother, sip a cool beverage under a big ol' oak tree, and figure out what each of us likes to be free from.

Blessings,
Mark

I think you speak for a lot of people with these points. However, if we’re talking about a god that tortures people for misbehaving, condemning them to eternal torture in a fiery pit, then we are no longer discussing the god of the Hebrew Bible. That’s Greek/Roman Tartarus, imported into Christianity through the writings of people like Dante or Milton. In the Bible, people torture themselves and each other, and God is trying to rescue them from that. His wrath is against oppressive, cruel people or nations whose only goals are destruction and death. Even then, He always offers a way out.

The God of the Bible absolutely changes is mind. Read the golden calf narrative as an example. He is portrayed as having emotion and being willing to change his plans based on what any situation requires. What is described as unchanging is his attitude and purpose in restoring people and the world to their original purpose.

Careful.

The Adam and Eve story may be like putting bacon in front of a puppy but my sister has hers trained to the point where she can and that dog will NOT eat it till she says so. But back to the point, God gave man free will and put him on a perfect earth and said "you can eat from any of these trees but that one" so its like giving kids bowls and bowls of candy and saying don't eat the gum drops. If God had never made that tree or giving Man free will we'd be nothing more than puppets on a string. And i know that some stories from the Bible are hard to believe, but theres NO scientific reason why the human body should function, they can't explain life, the worlds smartest people can't explain why the universe should exist. So that right there is proof of a God.

The greatest theologian since the Apostle Paul is probably Augustine of Hippo.

He just had a simple ways with complex thoughts.

His solution to those in his day, faced with questions about the big questions in life.

“Believe so that you may understand.”

The other way around is an endless and hopeless road where the opposition wants us to travel with him.

Augustine is great reading.

Blessings,
Mark

Hobbie,

read the story of Jonah and God's attitude towards Ninevah...

It isn't. Millions of non christians have died at the hands of christians for not believing in their god. Same can be said about islam.

Soon to be Rev Mark, you basically slammed Danny as you explained how he was wrong slamming an anti.
Where does it say Judge not least be judged?

Who is right or who is wrong? Not for me to decide.
I simply hate to see someone basically tell someone tell someone else take a flying leap in a rolling donut, and blessing to ya, enjoy the trip.

I realize you may or may not meant to put him down, but like so many educated theologians, "it seems to me" that you simply dress up the words a tad when calling someone prideful. Give me a break Marky. It it is all true, we ALL will be judged. If it is not, at least we can be decent human beings.

You will be a great salesman for God. Of that there is little doubt. Get a big church they pay well, better than coyotes.

Everyone should be more interested in a personal relationship with Jesus than sweating the small and big stuff. There off my soap box.

Oh yea, never trust a suit.

Blessings to all,
Mac

I was trying on a thread forum to humbly ask another trapper to not call names, while first admitting my sinful nature.
Is this judging Mac?

Asking someone to not call others liars? Would that be judging?

No need to call me a salesman with fancy words. Marky? I didn't mean to strike any nerve. That noun means I did. I apologize.

Iron sharpens iron, true?
Judging may be better viewed as "I don't do it, but you do."
I never, and will never claim perfection. Quite the opposite. I started each time with a humility as best I can muster. Prolly could do better.

I was just trying to ask another man if he'd notch it down a tad as he calls others names.
Asking him to reconsider that stance would not be calling him names.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll not be pastoring a large church, or a small one either.
Donna and I are blessed to enjoy what we do, and not need more money. We thank God.

I would agree, we have already been judged.

Blessings,
Mark

Jonah had a heart like those he mistrusted and hated > gentiles. Jonah was as they were however: hard-hearted and self-righteous.
He was the only prophet God called, among the 16 prophets of the Bible, that did not have a heart for God.
He would not repent. He hated the pagan Assyrians. And he didn't want to go to Nineveh with a repent message from God.
God had him go anyway.

Glad us pagans are grafted in. If Jonah had his way, no dice.
God wins.
It's another Yahweh of the Old Testament love story.

Blessings,
Mark

Sorry, I forgot the sarcasm font. I keep thinking people read my post and know me. lol

The citizens of Nineveh repented and turned to God. (they changed, they came to believe) and Jonah did not feel they deserved forgiveness of their sins. He sat out side of the city and pouted. Many stop in Jonah at the whale, some stop with Jonah's bias and dislike, some read all the way and see that it also is hugely about Nineveh and how people and societies can change and that message can even come from real prejudiced doubters if we listen to God and not the messenger.

Bryce

Mark June you are a lot of things but humble ain't one of them brother.

X2

I'll ask for grace when it comes to folks mocking those who seek religious faith. Some may think, "no big deal." I haven't quite got to that point yet.

Sadly, on the morning of November 5, 2017, a young man walked into a church 7 miles east of where Donna and I were attending church that sunny Sunday morning, and killed 26 people, and wounded 20 more. The shooting at the church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. The visiting pastor and 7 of his family were all shot and killed at point blank range. In the chaos of that Sunday morning, our church's phone rang, with the county sheriff's department declaring a state of emergency, and an urging of our church (as the next local church to the carnage occurring), to immediately vacate, lock down, and secure. It was a terrible morning.

All of us lost friends and friends of friends that day. Now stands 27 white crosses (including one for the shooter who was shot and ultimately took his own life) on the roadway next to this small country Baptist church.

Asked what could have made this happen? How could it be? Only God knows.
But a news summary of the man commented;
According to some of his former high school classmates, he was constantly "trying to preach his atheism" and describing people who believe in God as "stupid", causing them to delete him as a friend on Facebook for his posts.

Yes. I'm far too thin skinned on the shallow mocking of the religious in our nation. I plead guilty. And I wish it had never been so.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark you can get as upset as you like. It won't change the fact that some people are just not going to believe in things supernatural.

When somebody claims humans are not a part of the natural world it IS a lie. Whether that persons worships Gaia, Vishnu, Allah, Jehovah, or believes solely in the big bang and evolution, humans are here naturally. I suppose the Scientology people could say otherwise. They believe we were put here by intelligent creatures from outer space.

Petr made reference to Gaia. So I don't think he is a Church of Scientology type.

So I still unashamedly say that the A.R. philosophy " humans are not a part of the natural world ", is a lie.

I can agree we are part of the natural world. 100%.
I wouldn't call what I am upset though.
Thin skinned = defensive.
But I'm not upset.
Never was.
I'd put it more in the "sad about the situation" file.

I don't P off very easy. Never have.
Except the time in 4th grade.
That was wild.


Blessings,
Mark

I disagree.

Well said

I wouldn't worry too much Mark, if a popularity poll was taken today to see who was the most humble person in the bible, I doubt Moses would score too high.

During the time of the Old Testament writings and living the lands were crammed full of "stiff necked people" and funny thing is after 2,000 years of Christianity the world is crammed full of them yet! Lots and lots of work to be done and done by those who are willing to change and turn around.

Bryce

In my growing up days they always told me that in a storm what don't bend gets broke.

But then my dad and mom didn't know anything until I was about 30 and then they started getting smarter and still are getting smarter even thou they been gone over 25 yrs.

"I'll ask for grace when it comes to folks mocking those who seek religious faith."

Excuse me Mr. June, I realize I am not as clever as yourself, but how in the world is someone expressing that you are not a humble type of a guy a mocking concerning your religion? Perhaps others are wrong in their assessment, inferring you are not humble. But that assessment is not a brick thrown at your temple.

There are different preachers that are not pastors, perhaps that comes as a surprise. There are those that find God's word a mystery. There are those that find God to be a mystery. There are those that simply do not believe. It has been my experience that attempting to explain to someone that does not believe, that they are wrong, and simply do not see, is a feudal effort. I give you kudos for studying. If you are not studying to actually have a church, I guess it must be some nice to be able to afford seminary with no long tern goal to preach. Hat's off to you. The lure and instruction business must be doing well. I only mention that to note that seminary is might expensive. Wish I could have gone.

Then there are those that those that think they have everything figured out. I met quite a few folks in my time studying to be ordained. Preachers, teachers of preaching, and other theologians, most seminary trained. I have of course me even more in my time of living. In all those that I have met, never did I find anyone that I truly believed has everything all figured out.

I guess I should avoid these types of thread, it would be better for the thread and my health. But the funny thing is, each time I do, I somehow manage to get a few private mails thanking me. Go figure.

Blessings to you Mr. June, and all that have followed this thread.

Mac

Mac,

Thank you for the blessings. You and I have had good chats over the years on various PM's, so you and have that weird kind of over the net typing thing relationship, one in which words sometimes get misconstrued. I respect your opinion. I sure don't get upset on the web posts. If it seems like upset, than I'll try and remember that the post length can seem off-putting to some, but my intention is to try and explain an opinion.

I can assure you at 62 years of age, I'm not looking to find all the answers, let alone teach what I can not assure. I do like to learn. Always have hoped to attend a seminary before I was ashes to ashes, and I'm blessed to do so. The only plans Donna and I have are to share God's Gospel with natives in the bush of Panama and Alaska. She and I both realize full well, society would call this life plan senseless and silly, but then again I'm a trapper, and they would call Donna and I blood thirst murderers too. We're pretty used to it.

But Has anyone noticed in our lifetimes that modern society more and more demands you pick a group to be in? Pick a race. Pick a gender. Pick a political party. Pick something not as an individual. Shun the individual. The individual has no value. Pick a group! You can only rise and fall as well as the group. Societal groups are more important than you are. Dare, you proclaim that you believe in this "God-forsaken" sinful country, and that you place faith in an outdated American Constitution inspired by men who believed wholeheartedly in God, and who despised the boot & jack of Great Britain (the 18th century world power). Pretty cool how those true revolutionaries; farmers, butchers, & ministers, dared to take up arms, declare individual liberties bestowed and granted by God, and defeat the greatest human power on earth. Liberty of the individual was born entirely in the religious hearts of men and women who founded America, and they also got shouted down (and worse). But America was born, some of us owing this outcome to God (who likes impossible odds), because the story of liberty is truly a miracle. Ask the king of England.

Mike Huckabee preached the message today at the 1st Baptist Dallas we attended, and what a fine man. Great message about individual liberty. He said that America is ruled in Washington DC now (sadly) by many who are actively seeking to topple this great country. He said he thought that 1968 was a turning point in this nation, because prior to 1968 every person on both sides of the aisle, denounced anti-Americanism. Since 1968, we the people have elected people who just flat seem to hate this country. They are everywhere in Washington he said. In the last 20 years, he has seen an increasing hatred for individual liberty, and the absolute hatred of the religious because they and they alone stand in the way of secular victory, and he urged all of us to band together and elect more people that represent what America was founded on.

He then made a point; the secular has absolutely turned the 3 "C's" around - which founded and spurred the growth of this nation in 250 years that is the envy (literally) of the world; Christianity - capitalism - Constitution. He said the communist manifesto of the 1950's developed it, the bolsheviks here implemented it, and we are now living it. They (the haters in power) have taught us all to beleve all of these 3 "C's" backwards (ex: every single line of the Constitution and Bill of Rights was penned on what the GOVERNMENT CAN NOT do to the people, and NOTHING about what the individual can not do to the government... yet here we are, taught and now believing the Constitution is what WE THE PEOPLE can't do! We now seek a supreme court justice decision time and time again in matters that have no business being in front of 9 people! Its all quite backwards. He said their plan is simple and will not stop; They pursue the religious endlessly with hate, they despise capitalism of the individual freedoms God bestows, and they hate the Constitution. They must be defeated at the ballot box. And churches must once again look deep at themselves and their teachers, and get back to the Gospel of it all.

Mr. Huckabee was on fire today! It was awesome. And he's spot on.
He chuckled when he said that when his grandfather talked God and religion in the early 1900, it was good debate, strong prideful opinions over a beer or some shine, but now if you mention God more than 3 times in the same discussion, you're pushy and they get edgy and think you're trying to convert them. He said the haters have spoiled all the good talk, and we the people turn our backs on those who try to talk worthy, as we the people more and more rejoice and post videos about the cool dude who can say the same 4 letter word 100 times in the same paragraph. F this. F that. We don't think people are trying to sell lewd. We as a people are buying it by the bushel basket... and selling it to our children as normal. It's backwards. It's all backwards he said.

Those who still believe in the God of the Bible, capitalism, and the Constitution are getting to be a smaller and smaller group every year he told us. He sees it in the nation's capital where great decisions shape our nation. It is time to rally behind the remnant as Israel did. If we the people have the desire.

May our Lord Bless this nation even though we have turned far from Him, using His name more to curse than to worship.

Blessings,
Mark

I'm awful proud of how humble I am. I don't think any of us know ourselves as well as we like to think we do and we always detest most the thing we don't want to be...but likely are. Maybe that's the thorn in the flesh we bear.

Honestly, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I'm pretty encouraged to see just general polite discussion on the topic.

X2

I've learned a few things in this discussion and gained some clarity.

"I am proud of how humble I am" Now there is a statement with more than a bit of irony.

Bryce

Mark I had the pleasure of meeting Pastor Huckabee in a Kroger store in North Little Rock, AR. while he was cruising the aisles grocery shopping. We didn't talk religion or politics, just a conversation on the weather, in-laws, and dog houses. I would count him as a good ol' boy.