Is the fur industry over?

Hey guys, I hear a lot of talk on this subject. I got my check from fha yesterday, and I’m really wondering if this is end of the industry as we know it. I know there’s a lot of variables to it, but in what’s your opinion? Will the market ever come back?

I freaking hope so.

Gonna take awhile, but it will improve. To what level may be the question.

As long as ranch fur is over produced at times the market will be up and down but will be here for ever .

It may not be in our life times but I believe a time will come when fur will be in such great demand the concern for the well being of fur bearing species will exist once again.

.no more

[quote=walleyed]


I loath drugs and I don't drink at all, I find it turns people into What have you obviously been drinking?

If it survives it will be in a different form than it used to be. Prices will stay low until we deal with China in some way.

Not going to happen anytime soon unless foreign markets open up relations with china are in the tank right now and that is what brought the market back. Use of synthetics is not helping and then with the anti fur and fashion designers not using it does not help.

Until gas is 6 dollars a gallon and EVERYTHING you buy says Made in China; the market will be tanked

I believe It's the beginning of the end of the fur Industry.

With synthetics and ranch fur I do not see the market coming back strong. Even if rats were worth 10 and coons 30 would that be anything to get excited about? Not many guys are going to be full time fur trappers in the future, end of a era.

Define "industry" As to size, scope, impact etc. The fur industry like many has been centralizing and standardizing for decades and that was in response to a growing market. If we are in a declining market the will the centralized fur industry continue to shrink and maybe disappear. If so we will wind up with thousands of small cottage fur businesses worldwide which will survive and maybe thrive but at much different size and scope as to what we have seen the last decades. Most of us will not find a way to participate in a small cottage type industry that is basically a side income for many and not much world impact financially.

I would be one if I did not have a commercial market I would not be sourcing out firms that want a couple furs of each species etc. that is something others can do. It does look like even at my advanced age a small scale ADC trapping component would work better for me with a whole lot fewer aspects of the harvest to invest in and work on.

Bryce

I think it will be around, but it will be different. Remember a place called Montgomery Ward, and Kmart, and many other businesses that refused to change, and they thought the world needed them a whole lot more than they needed the world. Things are a changing and if the fur industry doesn't change it will fall by the way side. This is just my opinion of course.

di·ver·si·fi·ca·tion

And just what change do you propose?

[quote=Donnersurvivor Even if rats were worth 10 and coons 30 would that be anything to get excited about?[/quote]
Yes

I also think the industry will look different but will still be around.

I also think the industry will look different but will still be around.

Zing.

I think we'll see improvement starting next year, not much mind you, 2 to 3 years I believe we'll see levels approaching the last mini boom.

Call me crazy.

just rember.......what bill tyler said.......beaver will shine again.......and he was right. most ofr the mountain men thought fur was done and buried in the mid 1830s.....the fur industry is a roller coaster ride...........not for the faint of heart.

Yallz want to be prophets again! What do ya win for having the right answer? I'm gonna trap every year I have left on this earth, and the market has always been a rollercoaster. ALWAYS! Will trap for what I can still sell and for other uses. PERIOD!

I typically would only sell my marten in auction. All the beaver/mink/otter get tanned,wolves get rugged, skulls get cleaned. Everything gets sold to tourist traveling thru on cruise ships.. I’ve talked to hundreds of tourists from all over the world that want fur and bones. so I believe the fur fashion/fur demand will never die but the auction houses may downsize and trappers without a local market might not show up until the next boom.

x2 well put Lee!

Nope the fur industry is not over. Probably never will be. Currently fur is in almost every major fashion designers lineup. In my opinion the fur auctions have done a terrible job on the promotion side. Fur is green, and green is in these days. Its a big subject and lots of angles to look at but I believe fur will be around for a long time. The auctions need to hire outside PR firms that know what they are doing.

Fur market and fur industry is going to continue to get worse. If fur industry ever gets any better the fur will have to be dirt cheap, When something becomes of no value the product eventually dies.

I really don't see much growth in the fur markets in the future.

China will be looking for fur pretty soon. If Biden gets elected and works out an agreement it should bring some of it back.

Screw chinah.

ya he does have a track record of china deals doesnt he !!

I'd definately give up the fur market....what is left, not to have biden for a year, much less four!

Biden couldn't slap himself on the arse let alone put anything together.
I think fur will always be fashionable the same as beef and pork will be fashionable. People will consume it as long as someone else takes the dirty work out of it.

Long as people want to fight the elements for a dime an hour there will be some sort of fur 'market'. Here in the south hasn't been one for over 30 years now outside a few years

of sky high otter price's. Glory days are gone, what a time it was.

Good point, Grackle.

Is a frogs butt water tight?

49ER nailed it.

Yep He is crazy.

Forget coons I think we're gonna see 30 dollar rats this year! Lol no matter what the prices are guys who love it are still going to trap and alot of new guys are getting interested in trapping as well. My youngest brothers doing his course this year if he can get a spot, apparently the trapping courses are booked.

That's not grackle, that's Joey Marshrat from NYS.

I dont think you can compare fur to food or call meat "fashionable".

Gaga would disagree.

Turn off the heat and put on a fur coat. Save the planet from global warming, or climate change what ever you want to call it.

Stick a fork in it the fur market is done. I've been trapping for 50 years I have seen the market go up and go down but nothing like today Sadly it is over.

Nope^^
Its cheap, but it aint over.

Everyone said the fur market was over in the late 90's. We are in unique times though.
Mike

One or two more stimulus packages followed with more QE will put the DXY(dollar market) at levels as low or below the last lows.

It will be a good time to be in commodities.

Fur market is not over, if you have the lifespan for a few more years in the game.

Looks like a lot of people dont know much about the fur industry historically.
It has been far worse off than now several times over the last 500 years.
It always goes up and down,and will go up again.

Yeah, he’ll make Hunter his fur czar.

Boco, you need to keep in mind when we get $1.00 for something you get $1.30 or thereabouts.

This is the worst I've seen it and I wouldn't be afraid to say it's the worst it's been in 150 years.

Correct me if I am wrong but Ranch fur and warm, durable synthetics were never available like they are now. I see that as the difference.

You are wrong-silk killed the beaver hat market 180 years ago.
Also nothing manmade is as warm as real fur.

Are your traps for sale? What ya got?

I really have no idea what it will take. Maybe it is finishing (getting your fur tanned) all your fur and selling it directly to the finale customer, or a large warehouse that sells directly to the customer. At this point I think GFW has the best business model going. Hopefully he can find a way to keep moving fur. I guess I am just saying we need to start thinking outside the box. All I know is the current business model (auction house) doesn't seem to be working. I hope I am not getting anyone all fired up, I am just trying to get people to think a little different.

You are not wrong. Many things are way different than the first 400 years of the fur industry. The last 100 years are the only relevant years. Many things are way different from when I started trapping. There is so much more competition for luxury spending today than just 50 years ago.

Thank you Lee!

Dale

Hi Dale. Long time no see! I heard you were running a resturant down there in them hills! Hope you are doing great. I'll see you one of these days again, I hope. Take care, bud!

I have to agree with Boco. Ups and downs. Doesn’t matter what you are involved in things change but still have value. I said 15 years ago kids started school in a one room school house in western Kansas in the 1800’s and will eventually start in a one room school house in the 2000’s. Just watching a satellite TV or computer for classes instead of a teacher. Find the new market when the old one fades-away

Agreed Pawnee.
If things more than 100 years old are not relevant anymore then Your constitution is irrelevant too.
Thats the trouble with people nowadays,they dont consider how relevant the historical record really is to what we are today and how things unfold in a predetermined way,to a certain extent,based on what went before.
History is a foundation on which everything else is built on.
You disavow the foundation you are on shaky ground to say the least.
That is why the anarchists who want to destroy the current paradigm attack the foundation first-wipe out the history-destroy the foundation and everything crumbles.

We have had so much change in our society the last 2-3 generations we don't even realize it. Our 9 month school year is totally based on a rural economy and population yet today with 2% of the nation as farmers. We vote in November for most elections as that allowed farmers and families to vote after the harvest was over. Just after WW11 our national corn yield average was 50-60 bushel, today it is almost 3 times that. The average dairy cow was milked in a stall barn, maybe by hand and milked 4,000 lbs. Today they average about 5-6 times that much. In 1927 the county I live in had roughly 50,000 cows with 127 active milk processing plants or factories. Today there are 55,000 cows and we have 3 places in the county that process dairy products. We had hotels and stables about every 15 miles to handle travelers and horses up until after WW1 here. Now that distance is about half the normal 30-40 minute commute for the average worker. When items are fashion statements instead of utilitarian in usage we should anticipate the the wide and wild swings. just look at the leather industry as well as fur.
If we indeed do see a huge swing to at home work that will change the garment industry tremendously over the next years and decades.

Bryce

Even with the ups and downs, how long is a person going to be supplying product til it goes back up to profitable?

I lose money every year but I admittedly don't trap for income. I do it for management and because I enjoy it. The checks I get offset expenses. Higher prices simply offset more expenses.

The world is changing. Things we think are good or important are hated by or just don't matter to a growing percentage of the human population.

Animal use of any sorts will be extinct within 100 years. Fur, meat ,etc. will be grown in a petri dish eliminating any use for the real deal.

Nuisance trapping will be the competition that creates the next fur boom.

Trapping will always be around. What pays may change.

How exactly?

True words from the man who makes the industry's best J-hook! Just bought another one from Jeb @ Okie Trap Supply while we were all at the KS get together. Showed a few trappers why they needed to get one also. Great device. Thanks Ron.

Good comments on the thread. Boco and Bryce have good food for thought especially.

Could it be that during the last 100 years our US economy (and lifestyle) has so far outpaced so much of the rest of the world. What we call a dollar, and spend 3 of them for a cup of coffee, much of the world calls a weekly wage. Many of the people in the world, save the elites in them as they're often called, earn dollars per week on par with our money. We want $20 coon. The average wage in Cuba is $33/month.

We've just outpaced the rest of the world in lifestyle and what we call a few bucks, they call a week's wages.
Fur as a fashion item needs the elites in Asia, Europe and the Middle East to bolster any hope for retail wild fur.
My thoughts at least.

Blessings,
Mark

Not sure about boom but market, yes. Maybe a good one.

I trap thousands of acres of land owned by neighbors around my farm. Some of those really frugal farmers would likely pay me to do it. Not a lot but I am not even sure what I would charge--which I won't so it's academic.

When you are paid to catch them processing becomes an option. If fur buyers want it, they will have to make it worth the trappers time to process it.

What you do has value. That increases with how well you do it.

And...when prices are down, go knock on doors. Can pick up a lot of land access when others throw in the towel...then work hard in down years to keep it all.
Just bought some new (used) traps this year. Got them for a song from someone getting out of it.
Almost felt bad paying what little I did for them, too. Almost.

Early 80s There was good money in fur.Every body and their brother went out and got traps to join in on the "EASY MONEY".Then,,when they found out all that easy money wasn't so easy after all,,I bought loads used once, or not used at all traps for pennies on the dollar.

I would guess that people will always exchange money for what they want done and don't or won't do themselves.
The future of trapping is tied to this principle and "trapping" will remain as long as ^^^^^^^ applies.
Can't speculate about the "fur" part.

Morning

Hobbie Trapper- Only when there is a fur market. A lot of ADC trapping is during the summer with worthless pelts.

Then why are things going the other way? Talk to any butcher and you will find out they have never been as busy as they have during this scamdemic. I just got through guiding a fellow from Alberta on a moose hunt. He has owned and operated a butcher shop in southern Alberta for decades. He said he has never been so busy and every butcher he knows is saying the same thing. They actually just changed the laws in Alberta so that ranchers can now sell directly to the public. They made that change because the demand was so great that the stores couldnt handle it. Panic buying?? Maybe, but the fact remains that the demand is there and growing.

Yup, try buying laying hens in Ontario this fall. Better get your name on a list if you want any in the spring. Imagine if there was an actual real catastrophic change in the world.

Really? Why in the world would you skin, flesh and board a $5 coon when they are a nuisance year around?

I’ve made more money catching groundhogs, guess how many of those I skinned.

The OP is asking about the fur market. ADC is a whole other ballgame.

"We’ve struggled with low fur prices for a long time, but over the past few years I’ve predicted the low prices would bottom and start to rebound around 2020. That prediction is based on the production cycle for ranch fur and the clearing of the overproduction of fur in the market. That is happening right now. After several years of rock bottom prices, mink ranchers around the world have pelted out and gone out of business over the past 2-3 years. Their excess production continues to work through the supply chain, and there won’t be nearly as many ranch mink entering the market until a couple of years after fur prices recover.

As a general rule, most wild fur follows ranch fur prices. That’s because if given a choice, buyers prefer the ranch product due to its large quantities of uniform goods. It just makes large scale production of most items much easier. When ranch fur gets expensive, it is often substituted with wild fur, and wild fur prices go up. So as the availability of ranch mink and fox dries up, and demand returns, we should begin to see increasing prices of wild mink, muskrat, beaver, otter, raccoon and fox. That’s a big ‘if’, but I think we’re headed in that direction.

The fur market also depends on demand from the major fur consuming countries, mainly Russia and China. Both countries’ economies are struggling, and the strength of the U.S. Dollar makes fur even more expensive for them to purchase. The lack of a solid trade deal with China has been a challenge as well. Most folks would look at these factors and think we’re in a worst case scenario for fur across the board. I look at them and see a bottom that the market should begin crawling out of over the next couple of years."

I really don't know what the fur trade prior to 1900's where there was little to no ranch fur, the fur was supplied mostly by natives, and sold in Europe, and there were few bunny huggers, and little mass production, has to do with the current situation?

I think we also have to realize that high or very good prices for very select grades or species does not make an industry as we have known it. 45 years ago 200 early and mid season central USA coons may have all sold at say $25 each. Getting $30 for the better 15 of those does not support an industry but does control the population some if you toss every 10th one away to get the better ones.

Bryce

2020-21 forecast and summary of FHA August auction

Then yes, it’s over, as in Fat Lady singing.

Industry is on it's last legs for sure, but as an end user the pricing for my inventory could not be better and someone always needs a little extra dollars or wants show show the kids how to handle pelts.

Sad this country is to backwards to something that was a great source of starting it so many years ago !!

A friend of mine sold his fur skun, but green to a local buyer.
He had one coyote he got $60 for. The rest of the coyotes went for a little over $10.
He had 2 buck mink he got $4 each for and one female he got $1 for. Needless to say, the stopped trapping mink.
His best coon was $12. Some they wouldn't even buy from him.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't skin a cold coyote for $10 and I have a skinning machine.

This is the problem, even if prices tripled I wouldn't get excited.

To really make it worth the time to take off work and trap or trap hard before/after work like I did as a teen I would need

Rats $20
Coons$40
Beaver$40
Coyotes$100

I do not see those prices coming down anytime soon. I think if most guys were honest to themselves on what it cost to trap they wouldn't go as hard. Traps, lure, stakes, vehicle depreciation, boots/waders etc.

I don't see the fur industry shuttering but I do see the wild fur industry having a rough go with possibly a couple exceptions for things like bobcat/lynx.

I see this all the time. People need to get a whole lot smarter as to what to skin and what to throw away. I see mangy coyotes, bad rubbed coons and beaver, blue sow coons that people put the time into skinning and sometimes put up, and take to their fur buyer or send to auction, that is not worth anything. I cannot count the times I've seen on here where someone proudly boasts that "if I caught it, I'm not gonna waste it"! What a load of crap, all it does is help clog up the system. Do you feel guilty (white guilt?) driving by all those dead critters laying along the road? Makes about as much sense as getting a putty knife and scrapping the remains off the hyway! The last thing the fur trade needs is more junk. Educate yourself as to what is good and throw the rest....it is a surplus that cannot be used. One of the guys that taught me the trade when I started buying years ago, told me, " you can sell good fur, it is the junk that will kill you". That still holds true today!

Great point Lee! Trap when it’s prime, and skin the good ‘uns! Buzzards gotta eat, same as the worms!

I love that old Clint E. movie.

Some good ideas there. Selling direct to consumers as a novelty. Most of the general public are not exposed to wild fur and bones. Finding a place to do it like you have is the key. If enough trappers did this , it would raise the price on fur to the point fur buyers would have to offer more to compete.

We are then obviously heading into the era of harvesting and sorting as to value and worth to time and effort. I have been on this forum for maybe over 20 years and have read thousands of threads regarding not using what one harvest as wasting nature or being unethical etc. etc. Do we need to teach the art of sorting out the good bad and ugly when we mentor new trappers? I also know by waiting two or even three weeks in the markets we have today may lower the number of pelts with no value but they sure are far, far from being a minority of the pelts. It seems many suggest that those landowners removing animals in the spring and summer are doing us all a favor by lowering the population that we are unwilling to harvest.

Bryce

Dumping every pelt on the international fur market has never been an option since I started trapping here 30 years ago. Not a new era. We sorted out the crap even during the fur boom. However, this is not the problem with the fur industry.

Obviously new trappers, need better mentors.

My good stuff isnt selling LOL.

My crystal ball is broken!!!!

Yes Bryce, sorting out the junk from the good end needs to be taught. That critter will prolly die before it's time, if not caught. The only way it gets used then is if you caught it. Dead is dead, and a large part of the population of furbearers will die one way or the other. Trapping ethics has to do with humanly trapping and treating other people well. It has nothing to do with whether you use that animal or not. I do not know of a state where wanton waste applies to furbearers. If there was, they would have to try and arrest everyone who runs over one on the road! lol. For me this year, I will skin my 4&5X coons, and only if they are pristine. If they wont make a select, in theditch they go, along with everything smaller. It's the least I can do to control the population and not load anymore on the fur market. Will try to just trap four species, coyotes,skunk,beaver and rats. That's it, but I'll be trapping and doing my part!

Well that brings up the real issue by who's definition is "good"? I sold 2xl 111 grade off color coon even 5 years ago for more than a 5xl 1 grade B color coon sells for today. It appears then that we need to teach or discuss markets while we teach new trappers how to trap if they are interested in any commercial aspect of the venture.

Bryce

Guys could cut down on a lot of the junk(not all) by trapping when fur is prime or just coming on to prime.
And using species specific sets to avoid some of the lesser valued species.
In some areas it is more work trapping later in the season,and for land fur it means less animals.

Trap Shed forum ought to be full of good deals, sounds like.

My wife can sell my traps when I'm dead!

I'm impressed....Probably one of the most profound things I've read in a while. Type it out and hang it on the wall. Good insight Boco

Personally, for myself, I could care less what the market looks like. When I have dreams about trapping, it's never been about the fur check. I dream of yellow eyes in headlights, or a big boar coon with its' hand in a tube. For me, its never been about money, and most of the time when I sell my fur to our local buyer, I just ask for store credit instead of a paycheck so its less of a financial strain on him. I guess I'm just grateful to be able to trap, and have many years ahead perfecting my craft. I tell my brother how lucky I am to love a hobby that has little to no competition, and that adds REAL VALUE to our local farmers and conservationists. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to have other trappers all around me. As far as trying to figure out how to make it financially work, if you "rely" on the fur check to get you through the winters, I suggest working harder in the summer doing something different to save up. A common theme on this thread has been how all the profitability is out of trapping. IMO, this is correct, and it's not going to change. I'm just going to continue to embrace every season with nothing but gratitude and a positive attitude, and if the price of furs go back up in 30 years, I'll be able to make a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) of a nice side income. Until then, Ill just keep doing it for free. It sure beats the heck out of sitting on a couch staring at TV.

I'll say it for you Dirt..... Enough of the touchy , feely crap....lol

Seems like a lot of people arent trapping this year. Are trapping supply places suffering?

Im not buying into the "junk" fur is killing the market. My best coon would be a lower grade Minnesota coon but premier to a Georgia coon or any species for that matter.

Good question, I placed an order with Ken at the trap store at FHA and they were having difficulty filling orders due to back orders from some suppliers. Not sure if that's an anomaly.

Fur industry is booming here.
Gotta make a delivery of tanned beaver to an out of town customer on Thursday.
Shipped a bunch of beaver to a new tannery a couple weeks ago.This guy does heavier leather(but nice and supple) than International Fur Dressers (I checked out his product a while back) but that is good,the heavy leather beaver are better for mitts,so its nice to have both the thin leather for hats etc and thicker leathered beaver on hand for custom orders.

And here I had to put my hip boots on for that post by Boco that you found so profound.

That wasn't what I said. I said it is plugging up the market. When you have thirty thousand II DMG coons in 1X size that you can't move, the auction house will throw them away, after all your work you put into them. That's the reality of this, or they may sell them for 25 or 50 cents. Because no one wants them, and it is very selective demand for the best. What I am trying to get across is don't put the time into the poor end, you will regret it. It will change one day, but for the time being, that's what needs to happen. And the rona go away, wishful thinking! lol

Just like any other industry-those who adapt to the new will thrive,those who dont will wither.
But there will always be a fur industry.

No idea. It could be. Covid has lot do with it. Temporary thing ? Long time improve. Just when things get slightly better, ranch fur cause bad fur market. Nafa close. Groenwold is doing pretty good in bad times. Lucky he still buying an surving

Tanned fur should still sell?

Hopefully the tanned fur still sells.

If the market does go the way some of you are saying it might, my friends and family will have lots of fur clothes and blankets

If the industry decentralizes then the smaller firms can and will be willing to handle smaller lots of fur and that may encourage more individuals over time to procure the pelts and develop markets and relationships with many different firms. I don't know how many pelts were sold or produced in the 30s to 70s when New York and Europe were the main production places but that may give us some idea of what a smaller but active market may look like or use. I would just guess that wild fur numbers would have been higher then the last couple decades and the ranch fur worldwide would have been lower. It would take some time and some hiccups to get that new old model back up to speed.

Bryce

Supply and demand and sub-par fur economy .
Until we hold ourselves to account selling because someone will take it off your hands for a couple bucks prices will not change until they have to raise the price,,, until someone will go catch them.
Sending in everything just will hurt you and us in the end .
Moderation,
Trapping will be demand for years to come just might not be selling fur in demand.
Beef steaks, lamb chops, chicken ,and eggs and bacon cost money.
And protecting them has a price also. Bartering, or cash, or lease for hunting and fishing. All have value imo.

OK, got it, I read ya wrong. But, as I said early on, my good stuff isnt getting much more if it sells at all. At least thats how my print out looks to me..Yes- many things need to happen for it to get straightened out.

I don't think you all understand. No shops of luxury items are open in Europe and Asia. Millions of garments that were made for last season are still there. The auction houses are full of unsold furs as well as every speculator and fur buyer has a stock pile.

Then you got people thinking they can still make it trapping. Its over for a while. Maybe a loong time. LLL

There are still plenty of people out there willing to pay to have nuisance animals removed. Sometimes you just gotta find another way.

Yet, as a number of people mentioned Groenwold is still moving (buying and selling) product at very low prices, and some are applauding his business model. While it is encouraging that some fur is still moving, it makes you wonder if this will be the final nail in the auction house and competative marketing of fur.

Maybe Groeney is just doing it for fun also, and isn't concerned about making money at it?

Fur will shine again. But who knows when. Maybe it'll be after the zombie apocalypse, at the rate things are going.

Imagine Groney makes a pretty good penny off wool and other things in addition to what wild fur he sells.

His business model relies on not for profit suppliers (TJ103). He has those and he can count on them. Won't help you.

After I had stated I would not be trapping Gary told me in Sept. I should " go back to my first love" which meant just go trap for fun. I immediately thought to myself "I wish I could". It was 1978 and a coon was worth more than my dad made all day working a job. If we figured in all things that same coon with inflation, tariffs, that coon should be worth a couple hundred bucks. My first love may be the love to trap but the draw I liken to a gold rush. I have trapped through two of them. Afraid I may never see another one. LLL

If there's one thing I've learned about this game since I set my first No.1 Victor in 1975,the market is like the weather,wait a bit and it changes.I saw the best of it in the latter '70's and early '80's,I saw a coyote market that wanted "white bellies" ,around 80 or '81,in February here in the U.P.,and paid a $75 average.Less than 10 years later it was hard to find a buyer.I remember when it looked like the European Union was going to shut down the industry to appease the animal rights activist,fur was in the mainstream media news constantly and they trashed us on a daily basis.Peta was big,Hollywood celebrities had a cause,and it certainly looked bleak.I remember shipping beaver to FHA and getting a $13 average,then shipped beaver caught under the ice in Jan.And Feb. and got a $10 average.Then to fast forward,around 2014(?),rats brought around $14.A few years earlier I trapped a few beaver along my coyote line for old times sake and was shocked when I received $65 for the blankets,around that same time I got $60+ for my better Michigan coyotes.A market is what it is,for the short term maybe they are somewhat predictable,but in the long term no way.The market is going to change again,no doubt.This isn't the first time the.market.looked like it was down for the count.But it always got back up.Trappers have to get.involved in promotion.of wild fur,such as lobbying and treating it.like the.industry that it is and get off.the "sport trapping"kick.We have to do a better job of protecting the industry and.not let the.media and the anti kick it around like they've been doing for the last 40 years.

Done.

What Buck says is spot on.

Over the years of reviewing posts and threads I have read where harvesters state what it takes in prices for them to be engaged in trapping on a more intense basis. We can get the animal for free, what do we have invested in our enterprise as a cost of producing a pelt? With current markets we could probably give most of the fur away and the processing costs would be so high there would not be any reason to take the fur even if it were free. The cost of producing a garment other than pelt costs does not go down much or at all when fur prices decline. Trappers that state they can't afford to trap due to low profits or high harvest costs per unit need to realize that all through the industry processing costs are probably higher then harvesting costs. It took only a couple very good fur price years to flood a market with increased numbers while demand was dropping. This gave us a huge overabundance of fur that is almost impossible to give away. I for one am grateful that many are holding pelts in the hopes of a better future.
I have been doing some more thinking regarding the selective culling that was talked about above. I have always been one who did not sort or toss and prided my self in that stance. I can see more the reason many commented on here regarding being more selective. Many of my landowners are not selective at all when they catch and toss dozens per year, so I guess I should not be so grandiose myself. Just for the record I only sent up 2 coons that were not 4xl, but still have 75% of them left.
Bryce

Gone.

Hobbie, are you replacing pcr? lol

Bryce, I sent 76 coon last year. Twos were the smallest, and I hadn't planned to finish any twos, butI did! I had a meat market so that's why the twos got skinned. To date of those 76 coon, I have sold a total of one, a three select AB. I sold all my coon the last five years, but not this year. Only fours and fives select AB's will get to go north this year, and if things sound worse before season, they may all go in the ditch! I'm not gonna catch a one on purpose!

How many fur booms can one expect. Let's see I been trapping for 41 years and I have seen 2. Heck I figure we get one every 20 some years.

Your suppose to buy a walk in freezer and keep them till the price goes back up in 10-20 years, lol

Ive been doing this for 50 years.Big difference between a fur "BOOM",,,and decent fur prices.Fur "BOOM" coming soon,,,probly not too soon,,but I think we will see decent fur prices coming within the next few years.Cheer up !!!

Thank you Upstate, I like the half full glass!

Theres been 3 in the last 150 years.

There is fairweather trappers and there is real trappers.
Fairweather trappers come out of the woodwork due to greed,real trappers keep plugging away during booms,busts and the vast majority of the time when prices are "fair"

Fair would work for me.

Whats your tolerance for reality?





















































10 years from now, most of the knowledge base in this industry will be pushing daisies.

That soon, Marty? Thought 80 was the new 100!

As Colonel Potter would say:



"Horse Hockey "



Why would someone who consciously chooses to produce only when its profitable not be the true definition
Of a real trapper?


Your definitions seem skewed 180°

The advantage many areas have is far better color then we have here in eastern WI. We have pretty straight haired, good sized and heavy coon here that for me if caught in early to mid November I would be about 40% western heavy, 50% north centrals with some Canadians and others tossed in. I have never had more than about 35-40% AB color however, most years I will be 25% to 30%. Many of my better colored coons are YOY coons and they won't be big enough or heavy enough until even past mid November in most seasons. I am getting very good at knowing size and better at grade, but still not very good on color or clarity. As I read some of the fur reports what would bother me even more is to catch some coyotes and go through the stinking job of putting those up and finding that the ones I have a $3 or $5 etc. I would feel far less disappointed to get $4 for a big coon then a couple bucks for a yote and I am very poor at trying to figure out the difference between a $15 yote versus, 30 or $45. I did send one up this year that was $3. So I know what they look like.

Bryce

Recent antifur legislation in California is scary. They have a foot in the door. It is so very important to educate the public and encourage younger trappers. It's a broken record but price highs and lows are meaningless if the industry is not only dead but illegal.

Trappers are the front line conservationists and we have a responsibility as stewards of the land to protect the resource.
If you cant live up to your responsibility like The great Rheal Chevalier once said-"a trapper that doesnt trap should be kicked right out of the bush".I agree with that 110%.
You cannot manage a trapground solely on the price of pelts if you want to have a healthy line when prices return.

And Marty B.,your statement about those in the industry being all gone in 10 years is as you say "horse pucky"
There are fur schools currently training young designers all over the world.

By the way-I am currently managing 3 registered traplines.

You'll be managing 5 or 10 soon. You are just the man for it. Real Trapper.

You got that right.But funny thing,traplines are selling real good right now-old guys getting out and younger trappers can see an opportunity to have their own nice big chunk of land to manage exclusively for as long as they want.And Fur managers turning over their traplines to their sons and daughters or grandchildren that will trap.
And the government has recently recognized the family connection to a trapground-you see-here trapping is about so much more than big money one time every 20 years.
it is about making your life on the land and having a healthy trapline so you can do well in the good years to help hold you over in the odd poor years,and living up to your responsibility as a manager of the resource for future generations.This also means not being a forest cleaner when prices go up just as much as trapping when prices are lower.
If you are not willing to do that step aside-there are plenty who want their piece of paradise.

City people outnumber us. Fur prices are gone forever, thanks to government, sheep, and technology...

City dwellers have always been the market for fur and will be if the markets stay. We criticize the urban folks in many ways but without those billions of people buying fur, commodities and food raised in rural areas, the rural regions of the world would really be suffering.

BOCO I have some questions if you are willing and able to answer for me. If you can't disclose that is fine as well.
1. What is the range in size of say a typical registered trap line in say square miles or kilometers? About what would typical rates or fees be for a typical registered line?
2. Do most registered line holders have other full time occupations, or are self employed or can they manage the populations for the line with extended weekends or vacations?
3. I have viewed some video clips of some line cabins, etc. and the workload seems extensive and maybe expensive, for what the return(s) may be.
4. When you state you manage 3 registered lines does that mean you are the harvest manager for all three or do you organize the harvest with others?

Don't mean to be personal but have always been interested in how that system works.
There was a Canadian guide and trapper that moved near us that gave up a registered line when he married a person from this area and moved here. He was a taxidermist. I only was able to talk about the line system briefly once. He unfortunately passed away from cancer at a fairly young age.

Bryce

BBWI,Traplines vary in size in different parts of the province.remote lines in the far north where animal densities are less are bigger some 1800 sq km.My trapline is 300 sq km and is at the southern boundary of the Far North.The other line is the same size and adjacent to it,and the other line is around 180sq km and is only 10 minutes by snowmachine from home to the near boundary.
Some native traplines are community traplines where anyone from the community can use the cabins and trap,fish hunt pick berries etc,just like on a normal registered trapline only not exclusive.There is no 01 trapper who calls the shots.
On a normal trapline the 01 is responsible for the management of the resource.He can do it himself or assign helpers,alone or in partnership with the 01 who will trap as he tells them.
Most helpers on registered traplines are family members,but not always.
The only fee is a yearly trapping licence.In order qualify to be able to trap and get a trapping licence you have to pass a 40 hour comprehensive fur management and conservation course which includes practical work like trapping and putting up fur.You have to pay for your course and will recieve a trapping manual if you pass.I dont know how much the course costs I think its around $250 which includes the manual.The manuals are used extensively by new trappers when constructing sets and learning the trade and studying the biology and habits of the animals in order to be a sucessful trapper.
Most trappers live and work close to their lines and manage the line on weekends and vacation days.I trapped more fur as a younger man and ran more and longer lines when I had a full time job than I am able to do now that I am old worn out and retired.
A lot of southern trappers that trap private land like you guys do,also have registered traplines in the north.These guys take a few weeks off here and there and go up and stay at their cabins and trap.Often in the fall they will hunt moose or deer,and trap their beaver quotas and snare some wolves.Later in the season they will go up again and trap marten lynx etc and do some ice fishing etc.This is often done as a family vacation type deal,similar to the old days when people lived all winter on traplines,home schooled their kids and everyone hunted and trapped including the kids.This is the family connection to the registered trapline system in Ontario.
I dont have any helpers on my trapline right now but my son daughter and wife always came and stayed at the cabins when they could back in the old days.My son has his own line now and I trap it mostly for him since he works away at the mine.I also trap my northern line and another line adjacent to it.
I take the quotas on all 3 lines for management purposes.
This is how it works in Ontario,I am unfamiliar with how other provinces administer their registered trapline systems.
In Ontario the Fur program is administered by the trappers themselves through the provincial trapping federation.
We are allowed a 600 sq ft base cabin with 2 ancillary buildings one for storage of equipment and the other for pelt preparation each 200 sq ft,and a privy.
We are also allowed one or two line cabins depending on the size of the line,each 400 sq ft with one ancillary building 200sq ft and a privy.
We are allowed to use the cabins year round for any uses,fishing,hunting,berry picking with family.any 02 trappers and their families can use the cabins also with permission from the 01.
The fur industry will always be alive in some form here,because of our trapping systems and our family connections to the land.

Thank you very much Boco. Seems like a very well thought out and managed system. I am glad to see and somewhat surprised that there are so many other activities those with the registered lines can and do do throughout the year.

Bryce

Keep telling yourself that. Those city people are the same ones saying real fur is murder and plastic fur is good. Electric cars are good, but diesel is bad. Rural folks will survive, as they have since cavemen times. Even if food became scarce, there is always non GMO, free range critters to eat in the city...

I see more fur on city people than I do on farmers.

Yup

Only industry I know of that producers seem to despise the majority of their consumers.



Dumb question Boco: What is a "01" and a "02"?

Hey 1crazytrapper....Marty says we got just 10 years left before we are pushing up daisys.
I'm only 54...do I still try to run my 26th marathon in 2 weeks or should I just come over to your place and have a beer and forget about exercise?

II want to make sure my last 10 seasons are good ones.

Maybe Canadians keep trapping hard when you cannot make money. Might be a socialist thing. Most longliners are hunting and fishing this winter. I know you can sell a couple things you make or tan but that market is not a huge one here. LLL

My concern is that this business model will be the end of profitable trapping. As he stated in the bobcat marketing thread he is in the business of selling fur for whatever it brings. He makes adjustments on the buying end to keep this model profitable. And it appears most are jumping on board the cash in hand model no matter how low the prices go.

Sometime In Dec I want all of you to go out to your local Wallmart and see how many persons are wearing any kind of fur garments. The fur market has been dead In ten US for a long time.

No one mention ranches?

Ranch fur single handedly flooded the market the last time and probably will again if the market goes back up.
Wild fur production is minute compared to the tens of millions the ranches put out several years ago. And NAFA rode to the soup line with them.

If we think real hard about it, most of us havent made money in the last 10-15 years- depending on how hard you push the pencil LOL. My pencil got pushed so hard it broke. I started losing money even on a short line recently and wont do it anymore. Keeping wildlife in check is a novel idea but I need paid at least a little to do it. The PGC gets a vechile, fuel card, clothing, paycheck and whatever else I may be missing - they can do it......

Gary, wallyworld has never been the place where people wear fur to....ever. I have before, but I'd bet I'm one of the few. Go out to a swanky resturant, and your chances improve immensely! lol

PR, I think that’s a universal sentiment in most any industry where the consumers have a higher socioeconomic status than the producers.

I'm 78 and have lived through the glory years of fur harvesting. There were buyers in every county. Now times have changed. People behave differently. Wearing fur is not politicly correct. Looks like it might be over.

What do other Canadians say, not Boco

"It's not like if you go back 25 years ago," he says. "It was a major seasonal income for most of the people in those years. It's not the case anymore; people are really doing it by passion. And when you look right behind those guys who are 50 or 60, you don't see many people behind."

Pretty much sums up the Canadian situation. Same as here.

That's what the mountain men said too. Why does everyone want to put the finial nail in the coffin? I'lladmit it don't look good, but no one here has a crystal ball. I'll wait and see what transpires, not try to convince everyone on here that it is "over"!

What came first the lack of demand or the flooded market. It is pretty easy to see it is a lack of demand that is the problem now.

Boco, you need to step back and realize that not everyone traps on a Government trapline. Not everyone could control populations even if they wanted too, due to a lack of access. You only speak about your situation, not trapping in general. I can assure you there are way more people without a registered trapline on here than with one.
Not everyone has ice you can walk on to trap beaver in December. It is not the same situation everywhere in North America.

How much of the demand for registered traplines is from people who just want the ability to have a cabin and somewhere to camp out? If I could buy a line for 30k but have a couple cabins and a nice retreat that would seem like a heckuva deal. How much wild fur is Canada producing compared to years past? I suppose that would give the answer.

The economy in China is improving, so it ain't over till its over.

Russians, Chinese, Greeks, and a few other countries are the future of our market. The perfect storm hit. The USA may be going out of the fur market but other countries will still be filling orders in the future. What I worry about is legislation that will ban trapping in our States a just like what has happened to California. Our future is in our hands state by state. Let your polititians know this. Write letters make phone calls send emails and vote

I never once claimed any of that.
Guy asked about registered traplines,I answered with the facts on Ontarios system.Never made any other claims.
You must have dreamed something.

About California, if Biden gets in, Kamela will be in charge. Her home state is not fur friendly.

That is a problem in some provinces,but not in Ontario.
If you dont trap a registered line you will get a warning,a fine,or lose your trapline.
You dont have to have a trapline in Ontario to have a hunting/recreation camp.There is plenty of opportunity to buy or lease land for that.
Anyone can camp anywhere on crown land any time they want.So no need to have a trapline to do that.
Traplines in Ontario are for trappers to manage the fur resource as stewards of the land with a vested interest in that responsibility.In other words they are the front line conservationists who wont harm their investment by either overtrapping when prices are high nor undertrapping when prices are lower.There are,of course upper and lower limits that trappers work within for efficiency in relation to prices of fur.For instance a trapper has the discretion to take a maximum 100% of his beaver quota or his minimum 75%.And it can be taken in any time of a 7 month open season.So there is a lot of flexibility there.Quotas are also adjustable and are often discussed and adjusted by the Fur tech at council meetings in the fall or shortly after when trappers have been out on the land and observed/surveyed population trends.Many trappers will see the same trends with wildlife populations on the land and report the same at the fall meetings.
Quotas are trapline specific so a trapper can trap several lines if he has the ability and or stamina.

Much of Canada is trapped under the resident trapline system,so no,the amount of fur sold would not give you the answer.There are probably more trappers trapping tiny parcels of land in the south than in there are trappers in the north.A lot of these southern trappers have acquired vacant traplines or bought developed traplines in the North and manage them besides their resident lines in the south.
In central Ontario there is both crown and private land within a registerd trapline boundary.Anyone with permission can trap the small parcels of private land within or adjacent to their registerd line under the same licence.
There are also crown lots which are administered for trapping like private land-some of these crown lots are as big as registered traplines and are administered differently than either.
There are many many aspects to trapping here as one would expect in a province as large and diverse geographically as Ontario is.
Ontario ranges from Carolinian forest in the far south to arctic tundra in the far north and every ecozone in between.And it is all someones trapline.

Historic Beaver prices in Canada

How bad is it? Don't look!

We dont manage our registered traplines based on the spot price of raw fur.That is just one small aspect of living on the land.
However like the stockmarket,now is a good time to purchase or otherwise acquire a registered trapline in Ontario if you are interested in investing in a life tied to the land.
I average much more than that on beaver pelts by diversified marketing-some sold raw and some not.

I won't trap hard and dont want to wast my time putting up fur for .50 an hour especially since I'm very slow at it. I used to sell everything green so have beginner fur handling skills.
But I have a hard time throwing it away and no one will buy green since it's not worth their time.


So I only trap a little to teach my boys and reduce populations on my farm and a friends. I really want to learn to put up my fur efficiently and plan on sending all decent fur to be tanned. Maybe I will learn how to make things from it and sell a few taned furs to cover the cost. It's never been a money maker for me just a great outdoor hobby with a small off set of cost.

If prices would rise I would trap harder. I don't see prices rising or fur becoming popular anytime in the future.

100% agree. Maybe there'll be another fur boom, maybe there'll be at least "fair" prices. Or maybe not. But none of it is going to matter if we aren't legally harvesting fur. The demographics are changing fast and seems to be alot of public is at least the running fully on emotion. We've been using the same old line of being in the business of "wildlife management" for as long as I can remember. We might want to look at that and see how it has become less accepted by the growing population; heck logic was already a lost cause when (think it was Boddicker) wrote of the Cherry Hill coyotes long time ago. Not saying throw it out but we better come up with something new pretty soon cuz at this rate there wont be much fur trapping in the near future.

How many trappers are actually wearing fur clothing? Kind of hypocritical to be talking about how great of a resource fur is, but then not actually using any. I'm sure there's more trappers not wearing fur than there are trappers who wear fur (Especially on a regular basis)

Its like most businesses. If your selling the raw material not the finished product then the majority of the profit is made elsewhere and you have to sell to either a middleman or the manufacturer at the price they dictate. Not much choice in where to sell.

I go to a annual winter festival in the area. They have food and stuff for sale. There is a guy who makes and sells hats, mittens, scarfs and other products made from fur. His booth is always busy. His stuff is not cheap. I bought a Fox hat years ago from him. If I remember right it was about $95. Warmest hat I have. When I wear it around I always get positive comments. I live in a more rural farm area. The results might be different in a big city.

I would think the future of the fur industry for the small guy is trap and make your own products to sell. The internet has made it easy to sell world wide without leaving your house.

It means learning more skills but if you want more control on what you make from your labor its the best way to do it.

My hat is like this but more Red. I see they sell for $150.

[img]https://nordfur.com/p/red-fox-fur-ushanka-hat/[/img]

Ironically I was just pricing fur for the wife. $2500 for a nice red fox coat that we wouldn't get $80 for all the foxes it took. All the fur hats well not much I would sport maybe a few that would look nice on the wife along with a scarf or vest.

I honestly won't wear fur becuse its out of my price range, and I don't know what would last the longest or how it would hold up to the farm lifestyle. I mean really I would love to buy that fox coat for the wife but I imagine it would be a pain to get all the hay off of and probably shouldn't get wet.

What I'm saying basically is 3 part for me.
1 cost
2 education on care and matianance. Selling points on why it's worth the price it demands how easy is it really to care for? I honestly don't know and I trap. I'm sure the general public has less of a clue.

3 is personally it dosen't fit our life style. I can buy it and while my wife would think it's nice she would say it's a poor use of funds and she would probably only get to ware it a few times a year. She also dosen't like me to "wast money buying her cut flowers( plants ie Rose's and lilac are ok) and she declined my suggestion to replace the diamond she lost out of her engagement ring. Says she dosen't really were it anyway. ( gets tired of picking out dough and scrubbing off the dirt so she quit wearing it.

I am enjoying a nice fried grouse lunch today,thanks to my time spent harvesting some of the excess beaver on my line yesterday.
Yesterday was profitable in fur and enjoyment and food gathering as is every trip I take to the line.
Raw fur markets will rise and fall but the connection to the land will remain the same throughout for real trappers.

Yes, in America fur is not very politically correct. Lucky for us, people in China, Russia, and others, are far less concerned about being PC

I don't feel that the issue of little fur in the USA is political for the most part. We value larger homes, larger autos, 2nd homes, time shares, cruises, professional and college sports etc. etc. Those items use up a lot of money and little is left for fashion fur and we never were really a heavy user of utilitarian fur in this country compared to many northern or temperate regions. Wool, fur, leather etc. all take some care and most wearers don't want to do the steps to keep those items in good condition.

Bryce

I've been to a few up scale places and they still don't wear fur. Fur In the USA Is a dead issue.

Fur is worn by women waaay more than it’s wore by men. Most trappers are also men. Other than hats wearing fur (like a. Luxurious coat) would make you look feminine and you’d be ridiculed, and bombers are out of style.

I don’t wear fur cause I can’t afford it lol. My wife would wear a beautiful bobcat coat if I had an extra $4,000 laying around

I purchased a full length beaver coat for my wife. The coat was on sale and I got it for less than my beaver plus furrier costs. I sold the beaver and paid for the coat.

Low fur prices aside, in the future it will still be about meat trapping, helping out farmers/landowners with animal populations, & controlling diseases. We will still be around if we continue to enjoy it. Lets hope some fur prices turn around though.

Well I heard from a reliable source that groney will be buying coon . Top price on finished coon $2.00.
Good luck guys.

My 2 cents
The large auction houses have to rethink their game. Not much money in the international fur exchange, things will have to change.
I've never been an auction house guy and am a small time trapper...But the one thing I do is never give fur away.
I sell to a list of private buyers. Get creative and find niche markets...they do exist.
Be a utilitarian trapper.I sell everything , even the carcass gets eaten by my beetles.
Trap on.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
or something like that.

Viva la trapping!

With the exception of coyotes and maybe muskrats, trapping for an appreciable monetary return is without doubt over for the next couple of years. Starting October 25th in your area will net you less than fully prime fur with the possible exception of red fox, those are now worth $1-2 fully prime unless skinned, stretched and dried properly. You might find any species of furbearing animal that is not considered Prime is not saleable in this market we have today, with the exception of hatter beaver. So, start when you want to but if you're looking to sell your fur it will be wise to wait.

That in itself can be an opportunity! When prices do pickup in a few decades very few will know how to grade well. That worked well for me back about 1980. I don't expect to have that chance again Marty!!

The reason its called trapping has nothing to do with fur bearing quadrapeds.