Cowardice in the pulpit!

Well today was the annual submit to all authority pre election sermon.

Which I heard as vote for whatever floats your boat because the pastor won't say, Thus says the word of God.

The church in America has suborned her role to proclaim the gospel in exchange for thirty pieces tax exempt silver.

Google the Black Robe Regiment and the article on their website describing the Johnson amendment.

I counter with Acts chapter 4 when the apostles were directly ordered to not preach the name of Jesus.

It is so sad that our great country has fallen to these lows......

Garry-

Have you looked into the Eastern Orthodox church at all? I have heard it is much more conservative, I plan on attending once everything settles down with Covid.

One of the main reasons I left the church is what you are describing. This is a subject I could talk about for hours but am having trouble gathering my thoughts, I'll see how the thread develops and try and come back more organized.

You already know the truth. Find a different church.

The church has no place telling anyone how to vote. Separation of church and state and all.

Church's should stay away from politics...period.


The fact that so many want them to throw into the mix show that they want their church to throw in with Babylon the great and join the wild beast.

^^^This

Nonsense. The separation of church and state is to keep the state out of the church not the church out of the state, there is a clear and distinct difference.

You seem like a very intense individual and such a matter has surely not created a fold in your relationship with your Savior. It no doubt has created a bit more work for you but certainly that task is no greater than the reward. It may even prove beneficial in relieving some frustration.

That train has left the station. This is just one example. Almost all of the religious organizations have been coopted by the government piggybank.:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/

The pastor has every right in how to instruct his flock in what is acceptable according to the word of God. It is his primary mission.

The separation of church and state has been misconstrued, in my opinion. The first amendment to the constitution lays out what the government can't do. It doesn't restrict what the churches can do.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

There are many religions in the USA. One of the founding principles of our country was that we would be free to practice whatever religion we see believe in. What happens to that freedom when the biggest church controls our political scene? We start losing freedoms, because the Roman Catholic Church will be our government.

That is why the church has no place telling anyone how to vote.

I also think churches can lose their tax exempt status if the tell the congregation how to vote, or who to vote for.


"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes."


Most churches fall within the 501(c)(3) status arena.

I understand now... The church and its leaders cannot exercise their first amendment freedoms because it could lead to the loss of freedom. We should pass a law banning what churches can advocate for when it comes to politics.

Exactly, the government is holding a sword over the church... but you know its only to promote the separation of church and state.

As a Christian raised in the Southern Baptist tradition it would be easy to say something negative about catholicism but that statement is absolutely incorrect. The pope would have no more say over the US government that Franklin Graham or the Mormons.
However, all the above and the Wiccan, Rastafarians, and any group could calls balls and strikes freely in accordance with whatever their particular text says is appropriate behavior for a candidate to office.

Church is not my religion. While I do attend church, the bottom line is, what is my relationship with Jesus Christ and how do I live that out daily?

Have you ever read the Johnson amendment that gave us that or its History?

It does not specifically say that or directly mention churches. It is vague at best and has a very checkered enforcement history.

A pastors job is to lead his congregation. Leading isn't always easy but its impossible to ignore the abortion issue ( and many others) that are on the table in this election. John Macarthur in CA is a great example of how pastors should lead. I couldnt attend a church that would even hint at supporting the Democrats this cycle. Any true christian should be on Trumps side, thats just how I see it.

It is my opinion that preachers have the same right to free speech as everyone else. It is also my opinion that churches should pay taxes. If they give all their money away to charities their bill won't amount to much.

Property taxes would be murderous for many churches

property tax is a local issue

Truly, Verily, Amen.

Inaccurate. There is another portion of this. There's a percentage involved. It's been a while since I went to war over this clause but I think it's 20% of an orgs proceeds is the cutoff. Bring in 100k... use up to 20K on "lobbying." That's how PETA does it and all the rest. It's not 0% no can do.

Good call DS. How can it be so many one liners get memorized wrong? Who even started the line, "Separation of church and state?" The Anabaptists sorta had this theme but not in these words.
Another one;
"Never discuss religion and politics" is another one. What? Why? Church always being the first toss is rather interesting in these secular jingles.

so they shouldn't have helped the Colonists break from Britain?

Shouldn't have preached against slavery?

Shouldn't preach against killing babies?

what SHOULD they preach?

The should preach what's in the Bible.

Quakers are pretty spot on with their stance on politics even if it's to their detriment. Trust in God and his government to straighten things out and quit being presumptuous thinking we can do it.

Agree.

Agree.

Build more modest churches.

Yes it is

Alright well say goodbye to the old wooden churches on the hill overlooking the lake.

Some of y'all need to take a deep breath.

If a honest pastor preached a honest sermon about the election he/she would tell the flock to stay home on November 3 and, instead, pray for our country. Neither one of them deserve the JC stamp of approval.

I'm only voting for Trump because of 2A, taxes, oil and BLM. It stops there.

I have no idea what you are talking about but ok.

It is possibly more of a local thing but many of the old churches were built on hills over looking the lake. As the lakes have been built up and land prices have skyrocketed it would near impossible for the congregations of mostly older folks to pay the taxes on these plots anymore. I do not care to see these older people lose the churches they attended since they were kids, were they were married, were the had the funeral for their spouse.

I was under the impression that they DID preach against slavery...

Individually they were opposed to slavery based in their protestant work ethic. I don't believe they backed a specific candidate or party. I could very well be wrong.

K, what about the historical church that when first built was sitting in the sticks but now resides on the busiest intersection next to the interstate? Should they be forced off their land by the tax bill?

First Baptist Atlanta now sits in Dunwoody not Atlanta as they have moved five times in their history as the city and congestion if not taxes drove them north.

This term “ separation of church and state” is very much misquoted and misunderstood. Typical of today’s world, to hear something and run with it, requiring it to serve ones own purpose rather than actually learning the facts.

This term appears nowhere in the US Constitution or any other US document. It in fact was written in a personal letter by Patrick Henry stressing the fact that the government must never be allowed to interfere with the business of the church. Part of the fact that backs up the intent of this is, the letter was written on a Friday. That Sunday Mr Henry attended the largest Christian Church in the nation at the time, held where ???
The United States Capitol Building.
There are pages and pages of quotes by the founding fathers stressing the importance of Christian Values and God into what this country was built and based upon. Not to mention that the US Constitution and the Constitution of every single of the 50 states makes reference to God or the creator in the very first sentence.
Hillsdale College offers a host of free online courses on the Constitution, the Founding Fathers, etc, if anyone is interested in learning the facts about our country.

Sure. If it's members can't support it. That's not the responsibility of the entire community.

Yet, mom and pop farmer or homeowner gets an exemption in almost every state of the union in similar circumstance.

Write your congressman and complain about farmers and/or the lie that everyone should own a home (and get tax breaks to do it). I don't necessarily disagree with you on those issues. But they are different than the church issue.

Do you think a mosque should be tax exempt?

Do you think a mosque should be tax exempt?


Absolutely!

But I think you ask a loaded question. If by mosque you mean a terrorism promoting organization then by all means shut it down and prosecute. If peaceful worship of the moon god then they have every right to do so.

I would say the exact same for Westboro Baptist as well.

We can disagree yet still defend each others rights.

You do understand that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews right?

They do not. Factual whatever others may choose to believe.

Good for you.....the Muslims should rest easy now.

Even with folks like you policing the messages of faith, I'm not interested in subsidizing any church with my tax dollars.

You do understand that you are repeating globalist lies spread though a shill media right?

How is it subsidizing when the discussion is actually just who you will or will not steal from?

They in fact do. That should make the tax break easier for you to swallow.

Do I really need to explain how my business and me individually pays more taxes when others do not pay taxes?

In my life I have heard ministers say things in church and do things in their private life I disagreed with. My parents taught me to think for myself. Whether a minister spoke for or against a political candidate would have no influence on how I voted. I suspect that Danny and Blaine County had parents similar to mine.

That's how I see it.

I am a believer in Jesus. I do not attend an organized denominational " church". We meet weekly in homes, eat, fellowship study and pray. I think all believers should vote Biblical values and if your believes are serious to you, you don't need someone to tell you how to vote. "Church's" surrender much to the government for tax exemptions and reduced liability (incorporation). The Church is believers not a building. Be the Church, don't go to a "Church". If your a believer act like it and vote accordingly. I quit the organized "Church" because the Lack of Biblical charity is widespread in the "Church" and entertainment is more important than the desire for a more and deeper learning about God's plan and desires for our lives. I would encourage all believers to study why we do things, tradition or biblical truth. What did the Church of the New Testament do? Read Acts. With no building or paid staff you sure free up funds to meet needs and if the "Church" has no money or assets there is nothing to fight over (in our group each family sets aside their offering in a "storehouse" to meet needs). I may have been a little preachy and I'm not a Preacher. This is just where I'm at and don't mind sharing if it would help someone else.

I don't think you should be told who to vote for at church. Mainly because it's always a choice between two imperfect individuals.
I know people who won't vote because they can't stand either canidate and I understand their position.

I respect this. Thank you for sharing it.

Not told exactly. But I see no problem laying out each party and candidate issue by issue by name and and position and what scripture says on each topic.

The fear is that any comment on any issue or name will draw the ire of government.

The bible, which is preached by the pastor, should direct a believer how to vote. Weigh the candidates platform with biblical truth. In the case of two candidates who have both served in government roles, compare their policies to biblical truth.

Keep searching guys I did until I found a pastor and a congregation with fortitude. We have had armed ushers for almost 3 years now and that is just the tip of the ice berg.

Black churches don't seem to have any problems with their preferred candidates giving speeches during services.

Are you serious or joking ???

Not even close ! You must be listening to the Pope or similar nonsense.

The goons we select as candidates put preachers in a hard spot. The choices are a guy that claims to be a Catholic but supports abortion, and a guy that has paula white as his spiritual advisor and cheats on his 3rd wife with pornstars. Neither one is really a good choice for a Christian votes to for.

But it's also important to remember that the Bible clearly states that governments and leaders are instituted by God, and whoever wins, it's by the will of God. And we're to obey those leaders, whether we like it or not, as long as doing so doesn't violate God's law.

Interesting comments.

Perhaps the Charles Finney protocol for our Protestant churches since the Great Revival 200 years ago, takes the follower's eyes and hearts off the message Christ gave to 11 of His discipled (Gospels of Matthew and Mark for the Jews)?

... To spread the news that all power over Heaven and earth had been given to Christ because of His death, burial, and resurrection.

We struggle to remember that Church is not about me, it's all about Him. His message. His plan. His death and resurrection.
We're just blessed to be loved and be included in all of it.
Why else send the Son?

Many Churches are recognizing more and more that the missional purpose is outward, not inward.
If your pastor understands the outward gospel directive purpose give him a hug of encouragement!
What if the original 11 had just met amongst themselves, had a good pot luck dinner, and sang psalms of David? No outward?
"Have you not heard? Have you not read?"
Nope. Not without the 11 disciples telling others and multiplying to the billions today.
American Christian census has faded during our lifetimes, but God controls it all so all is well.

Worldwide, according to 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world in 2010, up from about 600 million in 1910.
By 2050, the Christian population worldwide is expected to be 2.9 billion, 10's of millions coming from the Muslim faith.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark do you know of any Churches actively following the example of Acts 20:20 regarding actively preaching from home to home?

I knew of a few but they gave up pretty quickly.

Our priest two weeks ago talked about the election. He said he wasn't going to tell us who to vote for but we as Catholics were to follow church teachings. Said there are intrinsically evil things in this world and abortion was one of them. When we vote for people who are openly in support of those things we are going against God. I've got a lot of catholic family who live in big cities who are all about the Biden Harris ticket. For some God and religion are only beneficial when it's convenient for them.

I was hoping you would weigh in on this, Mark. I respect your opinion. Should churches forego tax exempt status to explicitly preach politics?

Didn't the pope just come out in support of gay unions?

This guy makes sense to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vra-fFwweGQ

I haven't watched the interview supposedly he talked about civil unions, that's not marriage and just because he talks about it don't mean it's the teachings of the church. I don't think churches should be in charge of signing the marriage papers between two individuals and the government. Priests and preachers are there to join man and women in a holy union between them and God. Big difference and is definitely one of those places that should be a separation of church and state. If two people want to be recognized by the government as a joint venture for tax credits and other protections I have nothing against that but don't call it a marriage as if it's something God is involved in.

I don't know of any where that's the model precisely. But would it have to be?
We know that's what it was during Paul's travels as the Apostle chosen to bring the good news of Christ to the Gentiles in hopes this would finally make the Jews jealous after their long history of rebellion to; a Holy Nation, a Land, the Law, Judges, kings, prophets and the Messiah of Genesis 3:15.
It doesn't.

Followers of Christ are called the body of the Bride of Christ so it's worthy to see followers focused outward rather in addition to all our inward liturgies.
Wherever and however that takes place by His will, not ours.

Blessings,
Mark

From the pulpit, a preacher/clergy can speak to the issues, but is not supposed to name names.

The advantage of tax exempt is for the members of the congregation, that their donations to support the church are exempt from taxes (as either credit or deduction, I don't remember, in excess of a certain percentage, if filing 10-40A and taking itemized deductions, but that's all changed since the last tax change). Some states allow the churches to be exempt from sales tax, which is a local issue. The tax exempt status of a church doesn't change much of the business side of church operations.

While I have my opinion on politics and government, I wouldn't ever presume to preach that from the pulpit. The pulpit is for proclaiming the Word of God, Jesus Christ. My messily opinions are nothing but a bag of worms.

Golly Blaine.
I have an opinion but that's it is. My opinion = A church shouldn't preach or teach in response to taxable circumstance.

Orthodox Christian doctrine is clear however on preaching and teaching; The gospel message is the message of our faith. There is none other.
That said, we'd have to admit that interpretation and application of the Bible is routinely done in our Western churches, so we should always be conscious not to forgo the primary mission of the Church (bride of Christ).. For anyone else or anything else including politics.

So, we should heed Augustine's counsel to his churchmen to; "Believe so that you may understand." Not the other way around.

Supporting those who openly propose wickedness is different than anyone's "sin" history. The abortion issue is key in this discussion, but we're all sinners and there's no sinfulness ranking chart to help us rank ourselves against Biden, Trump, or anyone else. I suppose we all vote for the candidate closest to our affections. I guess we just have to double and triple check what, where, and upon whom our primary affections are built. When we do that, things often get clearer.

Blessings,
Mark

Maybe we're all 'tempted' to compare ourselves 'sin-wise' to others, I know I'm tempted to from time to time but catch myself before I go very far down that road. The Bible tells us not to be respecters of persons, not to treat the well-heeled better than we do the beggar. I assume God would spend no more time, interest or energy in judging the worst among us than He would the garden variety sinner.

Mark, you say Christianity is spreading. And probably it is. So why can't its churches stand on their own feet?

Why do they need taxpayer assistance to survive?

Would true believers not donate as much without the tax deductions? Even if they would, why should those of us who aren't members of that church be forced to help support them?

Sounds like socialism for theology.

Jim

one could ask the same questions of "Planned Parenthood"...

James,

Like all we humans touch to "make better, fairer, quicker, faster" it can get complicated real fast.
The answer to taxation related to our nation's religious comes from your field of expertise, more so than from theologians.

Blessings,
Mark

You are correct counselor, we as a country, should do away with all 501 designations.

No, Mark, I have no expertise in taxation.

I think you've deflected, my friend.

Jim

Keeping church properties tax exempt makes sense since this institutions are considered a public asset. Receiving grants or subsidies is something different. The government should encourage positive behaviors. I don't limit this view for only Christian denominations. Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Wiccan.. all of them as long as they don't run contrary to local social norms.

That's too bad because that seems to be the most outwardly facing ministry there is. All else is for the most part "preaching to the choir"

My expertise isn't in taxation either friend.
I have offered on TMan before the Scriptural text to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
I'll stand alongside that.

Blessings,
Mark

I think I've claimed part of my tithes maybe twice. Usually I donate cash.

Why are taxpayers forced to pay for stadiums businesses movies schools that are terrible or kids don't go to etc...?

As a Student of History... I believe that the Church and State malarkey that is shouted by the left and others is misconstrued from the original meaning... At the writing of the Constitution many of the forward thinkers in its formulation were Quakers. Philadelphia was a Quaker town, formed mostly by Quakers. These Quakers were in Pennsylvania and no longer in England, because they had been persecuted over their religion in England. My 10th Great Grandmother, Elizabeth Hooten, was the first female Quaker minister in England and was imprisoned in the Tower of London, because she would not disavowal her Quaker Faith.

I have my Christian faith and hold it dearly... although I am not a minister in any faith, I've given the sermon in Southern Baptist Church, a Southern Black Church and a Mormon Church. I find no difference in the the people or their faith, but I do find many difficulties in some of their doctrines.

As I now stand I have my faith in my heart, my Bible in one hand and my .45 cal in the other... trying to be prepared for any situation that may appear.

Garry-

Well the solution is quite simple and makes the most since. End and outlaw property taxes!! I paied taxes on my money when I made it, I paid sales tax when I bought my land yet some how I am still forced to rent it from the government in the form of taxes every year. And any time they want more money for schools, police, firefighters, they just charge me more.

Yet I homeschool and pay all my own expenses, I'm my own security and fire department. Let's face it for those of us in the country response times suck and all they will do is put out the hot spots left after the house has burnt to the ground, or pick up the bodies after a home invasion.


Churches have no backbone any more. I'm not sure if it's the tax issue but lean more towards they dont want to offend anyone. Again that will hit there pocketbooks. So instead they preach deluded sermons fill the plates and send everyone home smiling and happy.

It's a disservice to the church and community and why I have not constantly gone to church for several years. We try new ones out but eventually something happens from a church split to sermons that not blibical and lead people off the path.

It's sad but was written about in 2000 year old book.

Our pastor preaches the bible. Pretty sure while concealed carrying while do so. Any way if your pastor preaches the bible then you should know how to vote. And it is not in favor of those who support full term abortions.

It was set up that way as a form of separation. We don’t control you, kinda thing.
It is a good thing to keep government out of religion.
The church is not living off of taxpayer money, thats uninformed talk.

But I’m sure you already had an agenda before you typed this.

I don't know which church is "the church" but its no matter. They do not pay taxes and so to say they are not at least partially tax payer funded is disingenuous.

P.S. muslims DO worship the same god. Just like mormans.

Mormons make that claim but they are in fact an occultic religion. Their own writings deny the divinity of Christ and propose a universe contrary to that of the bible.

I'm sure the issue of churches and property taxes varies State by State. In Washington State there is a 5 acre exemption on which a church doesn't have to pay property taxes. Anything over that, or non church related is taxed at the regular rate. Seems fair to me.

The church has traditionally enjoyed a tax exemption just as many charities do for the good they bring to society. It's no more complicated than that.

I suppose at any level, the inappropriate stance would be to consider what the Church gets out of _________ (fill in the blank) when all glory is to be given to God.

Interesting how those who are irreligious counsel the faithful on who and what God is.
That's not anywhere in the canonical Book revealed by God for us.

Blessings,
Mark

if you want a good view of something, you need to be outside the picture

Jews, Muslims and Christians have the same God of the Old Testament. It's the Jesus/Mohammed part where they split ways. Regardless, the God is still the same. Admittedly, I was raised Catholic but I am pretty sure I am right on this....and you know much more about these things than me.

But not over the hill out of view without specks.

You know we love you but the Inspired text of 1 Corinthians 1:18 is wonderfully clear in the Greek language (more exact than English) with the verb appolumenous assigned a participle attached to verb:foolish, and noun:men in the middle/passive voice (action happens to the noun), meaning;

To those who are perishing the cross is foolishness.


Blessings,
Mark

It's a worthy stab. Sticky comes in when we assume all Jews, Muslims, and Christians are unified theologies. They aren't. Are all Americans the same? Europeans? Oklahomans?

Thank goodness, no. Not all Oklahomans are the same.

For example, the God that flooded the earth is the same God, right? Basically Jews, Muslims and Christians all agree on the high points of the Old Testament to some degree, including, the God unless I am missing something.

Sure, they have differences (and if this raised Catholic would have paid more attention, maybe I would know more about it--probably not) but each believes in Moses and his God. Not unified theologies, but they started from the same basic premise, right?

Mohammed was a pagan raised in a polytheistic culture the chief of his gods was the moon god worshipped at the q'abba that Muslims are required to make pilgrimage to. His initial goal was to obliterate the others gods in favor of his preferred god. It wasn't until he came into contact with the jews of Medina that the Hebrew God was brought into his theology.

how about it, Jim...de-fund Planned Parenthood, based on your argument?

Time running out on the clock.
Teams line up.
KS is in at QB.
10-64. 10-64. Hut. hut.
The hike.
Look. Look!
KS has a man wide open down field looking to score!
Deep down field.
Wide open.
KS with the Haaaiiillll Maaarrryyyyyyyyy.

Way short. Way short.
Never got there.
Never had a chance.

Twain Atheists lose another one.
They just can't find the right combination on the field!
But they always suit up.

Your funny

Interesting. I have not had time to read the entire thing.
Not long ago I was asked if I would interview for a Baptist church pastor's position. The interview lasted about an hour and a half.
One of the questions I was asked was "How do you feel about a paster promoting a political candidate. I was not sure what they
the committee was looking for concerning a particular view point. In my mind they were asking my personal opinion, and that is what they got.
To me it would not be the pastor's job to educate folks and push a certain candidate. I am sure that a lot of churches have a real mix members and I believe
that it would almost be an insult to think they needed a pastor to tell them how to vote.

Now, granted this was not a Southern Baptist church. I attended such a church for a brief stint as a young man, and that experience and from reading it is quite clear that style of church is quite different in almost every approach. I am not saying it is good or bad, just very different, and not for everyone.

Mac

We agape love you danny. Just funnin as you and I do often.

I'm sure of one thing.
Whoever witnessed to you years ago sir left a lasting impression.
I suspect they were either a Pharisee, a Zealot, or a Sadducee.
They still roam the earth.

Blessings,
Mark

My thoughts align with Macarthur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1AAJYOW2vI

Pike River said, "That's too bad because that seems to be the most outwardly facing ministry there is. All else is for the most part "preaching to the choir."

Very, very accurate.

Blessings,
Mark

This is a good thread. Thank you Warrior for starting it and also Pike River, Mark June, Danny Clifton, Donner Survivor and others for bringing it into a good discussion.

I think the reality is that most believers as well as non-believers never take the time to actually read the Holy Bible and study it.....as one would do when trying to sincerely get the meaning of a word or meaning of the text. I have dear friends and loved ones that go to church 3 times a week, but they never pick their Bibles up except when they are in church and the pastor tells them to turn to a certain page.

It seems to me, that most every day folks want to go to work, live life, and have a "Trusted" pastor, preacher, pope, etc. tell them what the Word of God says. This is one of the saddest things IMO regarding this country and our churches. Without people who know the Word of God, then that is when lies and deception takes place. All great lies and deception that last for ages have some bit of truth in them......that is why folks believe them as the Truth.

One of the greatest tragedies in our churches and our country is not having strong individuals that stand up and preach the Word of GOD; and also judges that don't have a moral background and understanding in the true Word of God. YHWH and Jesus both knew this was the case, that is why Jesus was sent to bring us the Truth, the LIfe, and the Way, and also the apostles to truly preach the WORD......Not to sugar coat it so that it is fitting to our own particular sins. It is the responsibility of the pastor to lead his flock in the true Word of God; especially if they don't read the Word for themselves!

Trapper les posted a video earlier about this. That video is right on the money! Any person that takes the time to read the Word as written by YHWH himself through Moses in the Torah and also Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, then the answer is clear as day who you CANNOT vote for!

I love this place and pray for its members on here daily; especially both Danny and Mark. I've never met them, but from their posts on here I can certainly tell that they are fine moral men, good husbands, good daddys and grandads, and someone you would be proud to call a friend. I do wish I could say that of everyone of my so called Christian friends and even myself when I fail miserably.

Blaine County, I like your posts to, but I agree with Warrior. Allah is certainly not the same god as YHWH. I have the 'holy' Quran in my study and reference it from time to time. Trust me, it is pretty clear in any chapter of the Surah what is meant when it calls to break the pig and the cross. Chancey

Proverbs 22:7 discusses debt.
Jeremiah 1:27 discusses life.
James 1:27 and 2 Thessalonians 3:10 discuss welfare.
I love how the bible touches on all these "political" topics and many more.

Honestly feel religion and politics so be kept far way from each other. Especially in this day and age where people are so prone to the sheep mentality.

"the guy in the pulpit said I should vote for that guy so I guess I will "

I see the risk of mixing the two however I do believe the church has the right and authority to identify and call out wrongful action by those in power and running for power and to advise on what God requires of us in choosing leaders.

Good post brother Chauncey.
In honest reflection, we must admit that Protestants are especially prone to selfish admiration for head knowledge because we're so strongly urged to study the Word.
But the mind knowledge should never outpace the affection of our heart.
Christology must outpace Bibliology.
If it doesn't we get modern day Pharisaism; the religious who are well studied minds of theology with literal hearts of stone.
Or Sadducees who use theology for civil gain with hard hearts.
Or Zealots who judge others but don't reflect on their own hearts.
Or Essenes who say to heck with all these people, I won't go to church with those kinds of people.

Christ called each and every one of these types out as unbelievers, who He did not recognize because they did not know Him.
We read our Bibles remembering as best we can...
that Scripture was never for any other purpose than to know of God's Character and Restorative Plan.

Good input in this thread!
Blessings,
Mark

danny, I enjoyed meeting you at the Kansas get together. I don’t judge others and never have but I have a question. I know where you stand on on God and I think from your post that you are a good and decent man. My question is where did you get your values and morals. Not a trick question just curious. Thanks

I'm not sure you really believe this.

a test...should trapping regulations be promulgated by non-trappers? what results from this when it does happen?

I must say I enjoy the whole “The Bible is God’s word as given to man and man shall tell you what those words mean.”

Carry on.

A man studying with me last night read the TMan comment on "outside" and said;

That'd be like asking China to run the USA.
or having North Korea tell America how to run a country.
Gotta be one to know one.