What happens to suicides after death?

Something like two-thirds of gun deaths in the US are suicides. The gun-grabbers conveniently omit this fact when complaining about gun deaths.

What I'm interested in discussing here is what happens to the soul (assuming there is one) after one commits suicide?

The Roman Catholic Church says that suicide is a mortal sin. If you die with an unforgiven mortal sin on your soul, you go to Hades. For eternity. (In contrast, what Catholics call a venial sin is a lesser sin, a misdemeanor, which can lead to punishment, but not for eternity.)

But my mom told me God doesn't consider what a person does while not in their right mind to be a sin. So if you kill yourself while suffering from mania, severe depression, schizophrenia, or the like, you won't be judged and punished by God. A form of a divine legal insanity defense. But what if you die believing you are Jesus? If you think you are Him, you couldn't have accepted Jesus. The head spins.

The Catholics' God also would let you off the hook if you repent and believe in Jesus before you die. (When I say "believe in Jesus" I mean "accept Jesus as my Savior.") So for instance, if you took poison but repented before it acted to kill you, God would not hold the suicide against you.

I don't know what Protestants and others think happens to a suicide. I'm interested in finding out.

Jim

I don't understand why you keep doing this.

If you are saved you go to Heaven...if not the other place. So simple even a lawyer could understand it.

Go talk to your priest, James.He will take the time to assuage your fears.
If you kill yourself you will probably end up in the everlasting fires of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman).

Now, now let's not feed the troll.

You're saying we can't have an intelligent discussion around here anymore?

Jim

I thought you could do better, Mark.

Jim

"What happens to suicides after death"....
This year it's documentmented as a covid death, so you're all good. Nothing to worry about.

The smartest biblical mind I know Ravi Zacharias said he wouldn’t want to meet his maker after doing it. He said a lot more on it than that, but that kinda sums it up. Look it up on YouTube. Or maybe someone that knows how will post it.

I dont Either...

There are people on here that Try, and care...explain to you their beliefs ; hopefully to help you experience Faith

But whats the real angle. To understand analytically , mock or?

I could.

I think there's actually a best selling book that will have the answers in it. Maybe try reading it.

Jimmy stirring it up again.......

Prove it.

Jim

X2 &3 &4

It's pretty hard to have a intelligent conversation with someone like yourself who chooses not to utilize their itelligence

Okay. I won't attempt to engage in intelligent discussions anymore, Mark. I've learned my lesson: you only talk about your own subjects.

Jim

You could Mark

But Without the Holy Spirits conviction...it most likely would fall on worse than def ears

You guys are scared to debate James.You know he can make y'all look foolish-yous have learned well.

Since when have you ever?

You only preach to the choir, huh?

Jim

I like cake.

As if you would know the difference.

Jim

Can you imagine how much pain a person is in to want to end his or her own life? Do you think a loving god would condemn someone to eternal (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) for such a thing? Common sense answer would be no.

Well, thank you, peej. About time a real Christian chimed in.

Jim

James,

I'm pheasant hunting in Kansas at Pawnee's lodge and setup. Fantastic host and fantastic ground to hunt. I have very little battery left and I figured this Q would drag out a bit.
Simply said;
God cherishes his redeemed. Paul refers to them as saints for this reason.
However they leave this earth.

Blessings,
Mark

Things would have to seem pretty bleak to off yourself, thats for sure.

i think suicides are just as dead as people who die of other causes

Thank you, Mark. I love pheasant hunting. Shoot them up.

Jim

The Tue Roman Catholic Church (my religion) believes there is 3 places you can end up, 1 - Heaven, 2 - Purgatory, and 3 - (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). Purgatory is similar to the pains of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), but do not last forever. Purgatory is there to cleanse ones soul to be ready to be in the Creators presence, and to receive the Crown which he has prepared for you. As for suicide, God is a perfectly just Judge, and he punish/reward you perfectly.

And you care what happens to ones soul ?

Now that's funny

I’m not scared. I replied with the best answer I could. I’m proud to admit some can explain things more eloquent than I. We are told our body is a temple so no I don’t think it would turn out well. That being said Jesus is my savior and I no all sins are forgiven. Simply put it’s above my pay grade.

Let's take a vote....

They are in this life.
Some don't believe in the Triune God and some of us do and there's grand mystery in why that is, but the resurrection for saints is a Sealed Promise by the One True God.

Blessings,
Mark

Not with you, nobody likes you troll.

You're very welcome. Grace (my Brittany) and I are sure trying. This lodge is first class! If anyone wants to have a go at pheasants and be treated well, PM Pawnee
I did.


Blessings,
Mark

Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You can't distance yourself from your foolish political choices that easily.

I take the question seriously, I don't know why some of you guys mock the question.

Christianity (not to be confused with the Roman Catholic church) teaches that once a person becomes a believer/follower of Jesus Christ all their past and future sins are forgiven. Nowhere is suicide excluded from sins that are forgiven.

It is no different than if you commit any other sin and then die before confessing your sin to God. Confession of sin by a believer is for the purpose of healing, not for the purpose of salvation.

Dont do it Jim!! You have too much to live for!!

I believe it's a condition of his psychopathy. He rails against the same people he brags about voting for.

It's not the question , it's the one asking

Lol

I'll see you in your threads, AntiGov.

Jim

^^^^^^
Antigov; "It's not the question , it's the one asking"

You have to allow for the fact that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Sticking up for your boyfriend again Bobo? You really like him quoting you in his signature line don't you?

Whoa...a threat to troll even more threads...quaking in my boots! LOL

Something akin to passive/aggressive behavior.

I can't get past the second sentence here. The gun-grabbers THAT YOU VOTED FOR.

James if you find out what happens after suicide come back and let us know.

My vote doesn't determine my free speech privilege here.

At least I think it doesn't.

Jim

Pretty wise!

Are any of you jabbering guys able to dispute my answer to the question? (top of this page 3).

It doesn't, nor should it.

Got $50?



Owl

So from a serious side, if that's what you seek, the Protestant faith (orthodox = traditional) holds that suicide is simply death in this life (as is all other). The wages of sin will be paid (Rom. 6:23) BUT the follower of Christ is sealed and stands with Christ and not Satan (Rom. 6:22). The redeemed is bound to Christ now (Rom.8:16-17; Eph. 2:6) and for all eternity.

James, there is no harder discussion than to sit with grieving parents of loved ones who have killed themselves. I've done it and I'm certain to do it again. It is a tearful time for everyone and there is comfort in knowing that God is a compassionate, merciful, loving, just God and we leave much to Him in these times.

I don't hold Roman Catholic beliefs as waggler did a good job presenting. Protestants hold that the atoning blood of the Lamb is sufficient for past/present/and future sins. Catholics affirm that Christ's blood is sufficient for past sins only and then you work with the Holy Church through a sacramental system for your present and future sins. Thus, the person who commits suicide would have categories of sin not covered by Grace, and complexities arise of course.

I would say Roman Catholics are wonderful Christians but their view of Christ's work at Calvary is much too limited.

Blessings,
Mark

Waggler, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I hadn't thought about being forgiven for future sins.

I'll maybe give a more thoughtful reply, if it looks like the thread will survive.

Jim

Don't think anything near 2/3 of gun deaths are suicide where I live. Drugs, gangs, and thugs are responsible for the majoriity.

A lot of the folks you support and voted for seem to think it does.

The Bible tells us to endure hardness as a good soldier, not bail when times get tough. I agree with what you wrote about our sins past, present and future being lost in God's forgetfulness when we we're born again but I wonder at someone who has truly experienced the change falling into such depths of despair.

I like you James. But these posts that you’ve been making make me believe you want to be a Christian. Just hesitant for some reason.
I picture you quickly asking Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour seconds before you die, if you have the chance. Unless you already have, for assurance, but you don’t want anyone to know.

Hopefully you die slowly so you have a chance.

Don't do it James
DTS is curable
Give it some thought

That’s not true. Most add them in to pad the numbers.

The parable of the prodigal son

If the Son had died been (The Father's Son) left ... Chose Sin as A lifestyle.

And while in the pigstye , had died . . .

But Christ continued on to show the Son returned to the Father

To willfully chose not to return and die might be the unpardenable sin. Death the end of God's test

No praying for a soul

You mean like false ballots stuffed in the box by democrats?

You haven't been paying attention have you. Google, Facebook and Twitter are indeed violating 1A and its only a matter of time before sites like this one come under some sort of public control if you keep voting as you do.

That's right. Things have already been determined by the time we shuffle off this mortal coil.

There is only one sin that will keep you out of the Promised Land!

No where in the bible is suicide called a sin.

James, the true answer is we only have what we believe. None of us know the answers until we die. I think your time would be better spent with those who really live by the word!
Hope that doesn't come across as an insult.

I think the Catholics would tell you that suicide violate the commandment, "Thou shall not kill."

Jim

Your Body is a Temple though

But as long as you truly Believe you will enter the KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

Blasphemy of the Spirit. Matthew 12:32

What do you think that is? The Unpardonable Sin is an interesting topic.

Suicide is like telling God that he can't fire you because you quit. Its not a conversation that I want to have with him but I doubt he would throw one of his children into h*ll for it.
And ALOT of Suicide is caused by depression, anxiety etc... which believe it or not are real illnesses you have no control over. Looking at literally everything as a way to die and your mind jumping to "how can I use this to kill myself" isn't normal.

I think you should do some research!

Pawnee, is that wrong? Please enlighten me.

Jim

Reaching out for confirmation on those 72 Virgins ?

Unbelievable. Four pages later and you guys are still conversing with this axyxybe. Why waste your time?

I thought the same thing. That was good.

The catholics and many others err doctrinally when they imply that any sort of human action can deny the omnipotent power of God's election.

Us baptists abuse and rightfully get mocked for "once saved, always saved" but the truth still stands that those whom God has granted salvation can not be taken from Him by any other power.

Here's a few verses and commentary.

https://versebyversecommentary.com/articles/doctrine/eternal-security-2/security-of-the-believer-3/

The Ten Commandments (and the Levitical and Deuteronomy expanse on the original) were never indented as Divine commands, instructs, and Laws given to the set apart nation of Israel to achieve Salvation. Rather, Moses was Divinely given them, so that the Israelites would discover they were not achievable and thus would repent and return to Yahweh. They did not. They did what humans still do. They took 10 commands, meant to show the Righteous Character of God, as a legalistic list of "do this, don't do that," (some still view them that way today) and turned 10 of God's Commands into 613 manmade "rules and regs."

Your statement isn't good hermeneutics in theological terms and is not held as doctrinal by the Protestant Church and I don't know without a bit of research about RC's.
But there are pastors and priests who teach it.

I really don't care what happens to a person who commits suicide.

This post amazes me! Nothing like I was taught as a kid. If not a commandment, what is the source of some Christians opposition to abortion?

Jim

It's an unanswerable question. You can not know what as someone's mind or spiritual state was upon death.

Hold up.... you're saying the 10 commandments don't apply anymore?

Well Mark’s post went straight over your heads!!!!

Sure did, but Im willing to admit that. Now can someone explain?

Short answer James is that the fruit of the Spirit is evident in the redeemed and the fruit would not long for the killing of God's created.
Paul wrote Romans 8 as a very clear summary of being born again in Christ, to all the Romans who professed to be followers of "the Way," yet who were acting as they did before their conversion.

I don't know who or what was taught to you James, but the Spirit helps us understand. Without it, it all seems like foolishness. You see, there's a layer of humility to the Glory of God in a believer's life, and Paul was preaching throughout his NT epistles much of the OT's prophecy & testimony. In fact, the best expositor of the OT is Jesus who wrote it, followed by the Apostle Paul. Pulling out a commandment, or a Bible verse, diminishes the purpose of Holy Scripture.

The Bible is the narrative of God's Story, Inspired and Divinely provided to us so that we might know God's Character through revelation, in addition to Creation and Christ.

Maybe the person(s) who taught you taught it as our story.
They missed the grandeur of God if they did.
Exodus 34:6-7 helps you realize who God is.

Blessings,
Mark

I believe in the doctrine of election.

As do I. The abuse and mockery I refer to is the unfortunate actions of some church goers who act as if they can live like a pagan but membership in the local church is the golden ticket.

The Ten Commandments first of all were given to the Israelites. Are you a Jew?
Please know that the commands, instructs, and laws were meant to show the Isrealites who would not fear (obey the Lord) the character of God. They were not to be used as they have become known >>>>> as legal mandates.

If we are redeemed, shouldn't we be perfect as Christ said the Father is perfect? Matt. 5:48. We don't need a list of do's and don'ts do we? If so, why?
If we are truly saved by the Lamb's blood, do we need a moral list of 10 commands? Paul found this same attitude as he preached to the Jews. They were no longer bound by the Law, even as they couldn't keep the Law anyway. They always failed, except for a remnant. Yet, they would not repent and return to God.

Paul was straight forward with the Jewish in this matter, The Jew Is Condemned by the Law because no one can keep it all. God knew that. It would mean a humbling of ourselves and a seeking of God's Face (mercy).

I added the Y'alls to help read Paul who usually speaks to you "plural."

But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that y'all yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, y'all, therefore, who teach another, do y'all not teach yourself? Y'all who preach that one shall not steal, do y'all steal? Y'all who say that one should not commit adultery, do y'all commit adultery? Y'all who abhor idols, do y'all rob temples? Ya'll who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do y'all dishonor God? For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written. (Rom. 2 17-14)

I enjoy verse 14. Don't blame the Gentiles you Jews! You were supposed to teach them the ways of God and you didn't do it, so don't harp on the Gentiles. In fact, God now has decided to graft Gentiles to His vine, so y'all didn't do what was asked of you by God, so he'll get 'er done.

But God knew Isreal, save a remnant would fail, that's why Christ was sent for Jew and Gentiles alike.

I've read where many pastors question whether half of their congregations are actually regenerated. I wonder if it's half.

Mark, the whole OT was given to the Jews. Are you saying its of no interest or applicability to Christians?

I don't think you mean that, but I can't tell what you mean.

I was taught that Moses was the LAW giver... or bringer, to be accurate. And you say the purpose of the Ten was to show the character of God?

I was taught that we cannot be perfect, that we are sinning all the time.

Jim

So, you're saying that if we are redeemed that we become perfect?
It just seems to me the list of do's and don'ts are not bad things to follow

Mark, I think you hit the nail. The original question on this thread is a rather legalistic question and the apparent assumption is the scripture must be some sort of rule book or legalistic text when it is clearly not to those who know it for what it is.
Thanks for pointing this out as it's often troubling that many read but fail to understand.

Absolutely not. It's of monumental importance!
I'm studying at a literal Bible Seminary begun in 1924 by conservatives in the faith (in a world at that time filling up with latitudinalism = liberal).
I affirm all 66 Books of the Protestant faith and quote Augustine often that the New is the Old revealed. In fact, I'd say Paul didn't say anything new at all in his NT writings. It's all OT exegetical. He kept on repeating what God's anointed said in the OT.

Moses was the Law giver (from God).
FYI - I'm more of an OT scholar than NT because the basis for the entire NT is the fulfillment of the OT prophecy and Scripture = Christ.

Call no man father, bow down to no man. no graven images etc. Catholics do these things and a lot more so really don't care what they have to say. The bible does not speak on abortion but several verses speak of when I formed you in the womb, I formed you in the womb etc. so I take that to mean a baby in the womb is more than just tissue and cells.

If we became perfect, the line would be down the block. God's receptive miracle is however more than the resurrection to come. We are sealed by the power of the Spirit to the One who shed His blood for us.

The fact that you sense the list of do's and don'ts is a good thing is a good thing.
Just know, that God's common grace to all His image bearers (humans) means everyone should have a sense of right and wrong. To what degree, you'd have to ask Him.
The topic of Justification (in a moment) and Sanctification is a matter of denominational doctrine or dogma, but there is much wonder in a sanctifying process that slowly buy surely changes one's hard heart to a softer version.

I hope that makes sense cowboy.

Blessings,
Mark

For the most part, yes.

Roman Catholic is the true original religion of Jesus Christ and His first Pope St Peter.Jesus Christ and all his apostles were Roman Catholic.
The Proddy is a made up version like Islam.

The self-righteous Jews prior to Christ were not a people easily persuaded to follow Yahweh, in fact becoming a people that had forgotten to teach His ways. The Pharisees of Christ's time were deeply involved (at the very heart) of the Messiah's crucifixion and we marvel at God's plan in it all.

God is never surprised by what happens and when. The sending of the Son was prophesied as far back as the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:15) when God Himself promised the woman from her would come a Seed of Salvation. The narrative of the Bible is compelling if we can pull out all the Americanized "interpretation" and "application" and just read the narrative as it was intended. God's Story for us. Simple as that.

Legalism is alive and well in 2020 as it was in 33 AD. We have modern day Pharisees today in our churches. They like to show and tell everyone how good they are and how others can't measure up to them. I smile and share with them that we all require God's Grace. All of us.

Blessings!
Mark

I feel for all those who committed suicide prior to Biblical recording as they were not offered salvation, but on the other hand they were not involved in all the arguments from all the judgment we put into many things today.
If my Viking ancestors were forgiven for all their raiding, looting, killing and kidnapping I feel I have a toe in the door.

Bryce

Psalm 139 is one of my favorites and I read it often to my grandkids!
I suggest sharing it with our tribes.

There wasn't a Proddy until October 31, 1517.
Boco, you been nipping again?

Righteousness was bestowed on many prior to the Bible. How else could Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob be righteous in the sight of the Lord?
They heard the oral stories and believed as the story of God was handed down from Adam and Eve, through many generations,
or perhaps they simply marveled at Creation and thanked God.
Creation is a revelation and Scripture repeatedly tells us we will see and know God by His handiwork
I see it (and notice it) and thank God daily for creating it.

Isn’t it “thou shall not murder”?

Pure facts are good deeds do not get you into heaven and only one thing keeps you out, the disbelief in Christ.

I believe so because some killing is justified

I feel that since threads on politics are banned on this forum we should also ban threads about religion.

Hahaha. I'm sure Paul values your opinion.

Im just hoping a lot of priests and boy scout leaders get there just do. The suicide is a sad but personal choice and depending on how you read it or what you believe in outcome can be different.

Interesting discussion, I would argue that someone that commits suicide is not in their “right mind.” I once read: "to know all is to forgive all.” It is a deep discussion to go into that, but thought I would put it out there.

I believe some of what separates protestants from catholics is “deeds.” It is my understanding that protestants believe like Mark says: “future sins are forgiven.” Catholics on the other hand hold the belief that without deeds faith is dead. Catholics believe that you can not hurt people and do bad things under the guise of God has already forgiven me.

Yeah either way a free pass if you believe, best thing is do good always.

The Bible doesn't say what happens to people that commit suicide.

Growing up the church/school that I went to said that suicide was blaspheming the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin, already referenced. However, I don't believe that belief can be supported elsewhere in Scripture, or even make sense based on my understanding of what blaspheming is. So, I need to refer back to my original statement that the Bible doesn't say what happens to people that commit suicide.

I also believe I can safely make the statement that God has given us everything in His Word to lead a fulfilling life in Christ. If suicide is not addressed, Why? Because it's not necessary. And if it's not necessary, why do people make such a big deal about it?( Including me, I had the same questions when I was younger). People live for eternity, but the outcome of where they spend that eternity is decided based on a simple decision everyone of us gets to make during our lifetime here on earth. That's scary to people(short period of time affects eternity) but not to God. Our individual lifetimes are more than enough time for God to draw us to himself and for us to accept or reject him. Anyone who is still alive has the opportunity to accept his Salvation(thief on the cross).

Hope this helps.

Side note: Its a little disturbing to see self professing Christians ridicule James for asking the questions he has. His motivations for the questions he asks are his own. We are not privy enough to his thoughts to judge. But in that case, why can't we be excited at the opportunity to try to express the Hope that we have been given in a way that would help others receive the same hope. Can I remind everyone that God loves James just as much as anyone else on here.

I think that possibly the singling out of suicide as a possible sin may be purely cultural, as well as the intentional killing of others. We westerners generally recoil at the thought of suicide and homicide; as do I.

However, in the not too distant past in Chukchi culture it was considered a humane and kind thing to take your aging parent out onto the tundra and end their life at a particular point in time. Nobody enjoyed doing it, but it was considered the proper and moral thing to do. Will God judge them harshly for that behavior? I don't think so.

I'd be moving away from that place after retirement.

back into the carbon cycle, atoms go everywhere. The natural world, of which we are part like it or not doesn't care how or at who's hands one dies

Some atoms may tumble around going from one living thing to another several times a year, others may get tied up for decades in the sediment.

Thats why when I die cremate me and toss my ashes to the wind, I want to be part of the living world again.

Psalm 141:9-10

9 Keep me from the snares they have laid for me,
And from the traps of the workers of iniquity.
10 Let the wicked fall into their own nets,
While I escape safely.

Sorry, his past behavior has set the table.

^^^^^^^
We all have "past behavior" that I will bet we are not very proud of.

Some folks can find a scripture for whatever they want to do.

Jim

I know of no past behavior I'm ashamed of. Not here anyway.

Be specific. Bad-mouthing your idol doesn't count.

Jim

Yes, then we humbled ourselves before God. What’s your point?

Its very simple Jim, all you have to do is TRULY believe in Him!!!!! Dont complicate things. I dont claim to be a Biblical scholar, but I do know John 3:16 will set you free. Don't get caught up in this or that. Study the Good book..........

7 pages trying to rationalize with a heathen that tries to intellectualize faith. I learned many years ago it’s a lost cause

Maybe just maybe, we as trappers are the front line of those who appreciate God's Creation.
I don't click on threads I don't want to view.
You sound like a progressive Beav when "you" decide what is good in your eyes.
Bossman has my utmost respect and if you poofs a post, it's his to poof.
All the rest of us roll tide.
Oh wait, I ain't from JTrapper country

I think James has always thought himself smarter than GOD.
Now, I think GOD may be dealing with his heart and he's running
as hard as he can to get away from what he know he will have to admit.
Stop running James, life could be so peaceful if you let HIM into
your heart.

But most of us are not pantheists. It is a large worldwide religion however.
Most on TMan don't believe all is god and god is all. We believe in the beginning He formed His Creation and crafted image bearers to be ambassadors on earth and then.... the Fall.

To my point of Teach Truth, Love Well or Preach the Word, the mottos of DTS;
Scripture is about God and we have to be careful that we don't aim it too broadly at his image bearers. As an example most know John 3:16. What does John 3:15 say? How about John 3:17?

The narrative of ALL the Bible is Scripture, not a Book or two. All is inspired and revealed to us centuries after it was written for His purposes, His Will, and His Glory. If we are truly grateful for His Grace (unmerited or undeserved mercy) than a humble heart will seek Godliness. A heard prideful heart will not. Simple as that really.

We love our neighbors as ourselves and pray for our enemies because some portions of the Scripture are for teaching, reproof and training in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).
We get in trouble when we as teachers of the Word stand too firm on the Bible, especially those who teach who don't read it in it's original language. The Hebrew and Greek is often more exact language than English. Often.

I don't think I'm smarter than God. If there is a God, he's got to be much smarter than me. In fact, I wouldn't even be on his list of most interesting people to talk to.

I've often thought I should have been named my younger brother's name: Thomas. Except he, an aerospace engineer, is as much of a skeptic as I am. He's not smarter than God either, though he's closer than I am.

Jim

Try it and get back to us.

A number of us have tried to answer your Q in sincerity. I hope it, in some small way, answers a bit of it for you. Prayers to God will answer more than we can. Truly.

James, you continually seek God in logic, and you will not find Him there. That doesn't mean there is no logic to our faith. I see God in every complex ecosystem. Others find Him in other places in their lives.

I used to believe it was me that made the decision to accept Christ. Maybe about 50/50 on God's part. I now believe it was 100% God. And please don't ask me to explain what I can't quite figure out. I'm ok with the mystery of an infinite God. I'm just glad that for some odd reason, I love the outdoors, love the smell of a wet muskrat pelt like crazy, prefer venison over beef, and think cow poo smells ok. God touches us one by one. The good news He doesn't stop trying to get our attention. Sometimes it's even through suffering to bring our pride to heal. That's not uncommon. You're probably closer to your Maker than you realize, and you're fascinated by your son the follower, yet your Greek taught logic is trying to put theology into systematic piles. Isn't it marvelous, above all else, that all of humankind has sought a creator? It's actually a strong argument for the existence of God.

We can call you Thomas if you prefer but you know, he died a martyr because he would not recant what he had seen.
We see the Father because we have seen the Son also. Not literally of course, but they didn't have a NT Bible then. We do. The OT is revealed to us through Christ.
In Him were all things made. You, me, us, the earth, all.

Understand faith stands right in front of you brother and we all accept and then try humbly to figure it all out. Not the other way around. By God's design.

Blessings!
Mark

James, clear out a few PMs and I'll send you something sir.

Done, Mark. I can't keep up with all my fan mail.

Jim

So why does God seek out some people, like you and my son, but not others?

I wouldn't be hard to find, by a divine being.

Jim

You might be playing hard to get, most skeptics do. God is sovereign, no one knows the answer to that. I have/had seven siblings, two of the eight are believers, myself being one of the two. Parents were not.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

^^^^^^^ That is a very deep Q. My answer (I'm not alone but there are many aspects from many others) is that God has called you, and will continue to do so. Each testimony has a different story. You have one or will have one, but many stand in opposition, and I think it's fascinating that God could make us ALL do whatever He delights in. How sweet the choices He allows us. I hold it's part of His redemptive plan. He is gathering His Church in this era and when He's done gathering, the Trumpet will sound.

It's in the Bible. From front to back.

I sent you a link I know you'll enjoy.

Blessings,
Mark

Like the rest of us.God judges them.

This is what the Bible says.
And what true believers (the saved) acknowledge/honor.
Until a person accepts Salvation and allows The Holy Spirit in, they won’t get it.

And , Purgatory is not in the Bible.

Indeed, he waited on me 28 yrs!

But Thomas also had to see for himself before he believed.

Jim

Purgatory, the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which, according to medieval Christian and Roman Catholic belief, the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven.

When I was a kid we said certain prayers to buy time off in Purgatory. Say a given prayer three times a day for a month, and you just bought yourself 396 days off in Purgatory.

In my youthful zeal, I once accumulated more than 25 years off in Purgatory, at the time probably more than my sentence would have been if my young life had been cut short. Since then, 25 years won't be a drop in the bucket of my sins.

You can see how some of this stuff looks to outsiders, can't you?

Jim

Don't care what it looks like to others.Its the truth.Prayer is very powerful.

One should define suicide first.
If one smokes ,knowing it can kill you, and then it does, is that suicide?
If one does a daredevil event that can kill you, and it does, is that not suicide?
If one habitually does something that can kill you, and it eventually does, is that not suicide?
There are all kinds of things that can and do kill yourself suddenly, or over time that most of us do.

What happens after death is beyond human comprehension

Mark you are so right on with the original language thing. Once I started studying scripture from the original language I discovered I had been taught a lot of things incorrectly.

It's not about what sin you have done

It's about wheater or not you have accepted the fact that all have sinned
And that you need a savior.
It's about weather or not you have accepted jesus


Dont do it james. You really gona hate it


It's not about being punished.. it's about who YOU freely chose

The sin that cant be forgiven is rejecting christ

James. Were is any if that in the bible
I dont think it is

Were is that in the bible

John 3

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

I don't know if M June is a Calvinist or not; I am not, and please guys do not derail this thread on that subject.
However to answer your question, God seeks out everyone.

II Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

You have to trust in GOD for everything
Including goodness. That goodness is christ

You want to depend on yourself he will let you and you will fail
He is the only thing that will not let you down

Well, I guess this also could be if you believe once saved always saved you won't loose your salvation with calvinism doctrine. Which can lead to an entirely different thread but we won't further discuss that here. A person who is governed by the Holy Spirit walking with the Lord Jesus Christ should have the hope that suicide is not the only way. That God is bigger then ANY of our problems no matter how big WE might think it is, our mountain is only a mole hill to God.

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” 2 timothy 1:7

Note, the sound mind.

The original Greek word translated “sound mind” here is sophronismos, and it appears in the Bible only this one time.

In other Bible translations, the word sophronismos is rendered “self-control” (ESV), “self-discipline” (NIV, NLT), “discipline” (NASB), “good judgment” (GW), and “sound judgment” (CSB).

Therefore a believer, has self control and discipline. Wouldn't suicide fall outside those bounds? Now only the LORD knows out hearts but it's a sin.

I think we make the mistake of thinking God is a super-computer , where if you enter the right commands ( prayers , etc..) ; then you're golden . He's the most intelligent deity that's ever existed . I'm pretty sure he can differentiate , assess, and separate intentions, content of the heart , and so on.

Whoa there Buck. Now you gave some translations there but what does it mean in Hebrew?

It might just mean “song of thought be all for naught” or “your get up and go done got up and gone.”

Better wait for someone to tell us.

I didn't see this til this morning and have read the whole thing, so I'm already exhausted, lol. These threads draw me just like the crowing of a rooster draws the fox. Just think what a group of roosters can call up.

To me there is different types of suicide. I've been closer to some than I chose to be. Sometimes people allow themselves to be drawn into situations for different reasons, whether its their idea about what love is, or the glamorous lure of fame and stardom. Sometimes people allow themselves to be drawn into a relationship that they totally give their whole self to and they give their self worth away to another. And when that fantasy of love gets turned upside down by a outside force maybe like adultery, then they have been used up and its time to be thrown away. If they have nothing to fall back on, then they self destruct.

Sometimes people who like control and its always their way or else, when they have spent themselves and are no longer in control, because of some sort of twisted pride do the only way out they think is honorable. They may resort to such means as Saul and have his armor bearer stab him thru or let the police put him down.
There is people that are so hard headed and in control they will not be denied. They use there suicide still as a form of control. Like I told one lady about her brother that killed himself, That was his last selfish grasp at control.
If people truly knew what a terrible burden it puts on their family and loved ones they surely wouldn't do it. It sometimes leaves those who care with a terrible guilt and all those what ifs I had done this or that.

Then there is the narcissists that while he may take himself out but also take as many others with him as possible. Whether its some cult or just a self made maniac.

There is a judgement coming to us all, too many to cover here. But there is one judgement , the Great White Throne Judgement. There won't be any believers of any degree there. That is a judgement best to avoid.

Sometimes we don't know how bad off we are until we are spiritually drunk and fall into the ditch with a pig and the pig gets up and moves, thinking he is in bad company.

Surely religion must have some cures for the ailments of the world. A preferred way is that if we are condemned do away with the laws that condemns us. Just dissolve them into suggestions and then all will be well. There has been a lot of trouble about taking the 10 commandments off the court house lawn. The court house no less, if you go before a court of law what would you like the judgements to be based on, surely not some new fashions of some group that may or may not be here tomorrow.

So if I claim Gentile then does that exonerate me?
Romans 2:12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

We get to thinking we are above the law and I can do anything I want and be forgiven, that is debatable but one thing that is not debatable is that all things I do are not profitable. Still its not how we get in those unprofitable things but how we get out. Many times we try to get out the same way we got in and only compound the problem.

As far as the natural laws go, sometimes if we fly an airplane long enough we start thinking we are defying gravity, but actually we are using another law called the law of lift. You can believe planes don't crash if you want!

God has some laws that was in action back in the Garden.
Exodus 12
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

God himself honored that law, he gave blood which is the life. Jesus gave His perfect life to redeem that perfect Adam. Thus fulfilling life for life and it still stands. He gave the sign of the animal skin in the Garden.

James,



In reference to this question and statement, you must answer 2 questions question first.



”Do I want to be found by God?"

If your answer is no, the answers to your quoted question and statement are mute at that point.

If your answer is yes, then a follow up question must then be answered.


"Am I willing to earnestly follow God once found."

If your answer is no, the answers to your quoted question and statement are mute at that point.

If yes, congratulations, you are on a path to the answers you seek.


Faith in Jesus Christ boils down to a relationship between the believer and his or her Creator and Redeemer.


I liken it to simply wanting to squeak through the doggy door of Heaven, simply gaining entry, versus, longing to hear the words "Well done, good and faithful servant."


Or maybe a better way is to say it like this: Many are willing to accept Jesus as their Savior. Far fewer wish to accept Jesus as their Lord.


The difference is relationship at the heart and soul level.

What if someone else loads the gun, but if the person that's tired of living pulls the trigger?
It could still be ruled a accident right?
Or if you shoot a grizzly bear an wound it and go into the brush to retrieve it ,but
Forget your gun would that be considered suicide? Or just plain C.R .S.

If someone else loads it and you pull the trigger its still suicide unless you were unaware that it was loaded

There are times, like incurable disease, where suicide makes sense to me.

After reading the first 5 pages of this I am glad I believe the way I do...that when I die, no matter how it happens...I am simply going to rot away and that's it. Hopefully folks will have enough memories of me to carry me into the future.

That's it...nice and simple so I can still enjoy life and not really worry about the future after I am gone.

Moosetrot

That's why Martin Luther reflected deeply upon two verses of Scripture that as a priest made no sense to him, and the selling of remonstrances, he deemed was the work of men, not God. So, the nailing of the 95 theses to the Catholic (Universal - not Roman Catholic) church door in Wittenburg in 1517.

Romans 1:17; For in it (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written,“but the righteous man shall live by faith.”. <<<<< Habakkuk 2:4
and
Romans 3:24; being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

I smile when folks tell me only uneducated people believe in God. There have been countless brilliant people (then and now) place faith in God. Intelligence is not a hindrance or an aid. Paul was one of the brilliant. Spoke multiple languages, was able to memorize vast literary works, and was a dual citizen in the most powerful empire at that time.

Paul's writing of Romans is key; we are not ashamed of the Gospel, and that the Gospel is the faith through which God declares us righteous by faith, from the beginning to the end. You can't be righteous by following any law, only through faith.

Luther, along with Calvin, and Zwingli would lead a movement away from the workings of 1,000 years of Catholic Church, for the reasons you state James.

Blessings,
Mark

I'm on that same page Moosetrot.

Atheists in America since the 1900's are now the norm. Prior to that there were very few atheists in the world. What changed? The inventions of man escalated and an evolutionary theory was proposed in the 1800's.

Now, all can place their hope in the blessings of men, "Good luck," and "I wish you well," rather than "May God Bless," and "May God's Face shine upon you," spoken for countless centuries.

America was founded by deeply religious men and women, something that would never happen in today's culture.
Imperfect as followers of Christ all are on this earth, they forged the greatest land of liberty and freedom in His Name.
If you get right down to the meat on the bone, today's followers are hold outs of a time that has been largely forgotten by almost everyone, including some on this forum.
We honor our Christian nation and mourn it's evolution away from the founder's principles that all men are created equal in the eyes of the Lord.

Blessings,
Mark

Jesus had some to say about purgatory. The Jews would bury their parents in one place for 11 months less one day. Then at the end of that they would open the tomb and gather the bones for their final burial It was their belief the rotting away of the flesh purged them from all uncleanness. Also during that time they would say prayers for the departed. I've read it was actually a help for the living to get thru their loss easier. For relatives not so close it was less praying. Jesus had a follower that said he would follow but first let him bury his dead father , well that would take 11 months and maybe his father wasn't even dead yet. Jesus told him to let the dead bury their own dead, meaning since the dead were with the other dead to let them take care of their own.

Their was a guy near here died and they was taking up money to get him out of purgatory. They went to his nephew and he asked them how they was coming along getting him out of purgatory. They said pretty good, if we can just get another $200 we think he will be ok. The nephew said, I don't have it, you will just have to let him go!

We can prove God is alive and abounds in love + kindness = lovingkindness (chesed is the Hebrew and there is no English word that sufficiently describes the attributes of God)....
He allows us to keep on keeping and though He doesn't need any of us, He loves each of us. We are 6 billion examples of His ability and creativity.

Left up to us, there'd be a whole lot more retribution in the neighborhoods.
Because of course "they" deserved it.

Thank you Lord for not pushing the red button and starting over again as you did in the time of Noah.
We love rainbows!

Blessings,
Mark

One of the main reasons for more atheist are the modern churches and the way they conduct themselves.

Culture has a deep impact on all things.
There is a movement toward the orthodox or traditional doctrines of the faith, but not all seminaries teach it, and not everyone attends seminary.
Al Sharpton was ordained at age 10 as an example.
Most all the universities started as seminaries are now just secular colleges with old names like Yale, Harvard, Princeton, etc.
But God is at the helm so all is well.

Blessings,
Mark

Purgatory has to be one of the most non-biblical theologies to ever make it into Catholicism, and they have several of those.

Jim likes to show everyone how "enlightened", "deep" and "smart" he is.

to reply to his post....DON'T DO IT, Jim!!!!

Catholics are the most confused people in America. They vote overwhelmly democrat, yet claim to despise the democrat platform. I would rather be an athiest than a catholic.

Hopefully, Mr. June will chime in on this, but I don't think Jesus meant the literal "dead" should take care of other dead people. I think He meant that let those who are SPIRITUALLY dead waste their time (when they COULD have been following Christ) burying those who have died.

I thought you would get blown away by an audible!

Chris

I question no living person can answer.

AH, BUT !!!! what IF !!! there is no Heaven or Damnation ! For the believers out there, what IF after we die, we find out that our spirit is permanently stuck in a box 6 feet underground? No meeting long gone Family and friends. No everlasting life. Just stuck in a box, buried beneath the dirt. Then everything that was written in the Bible , would turn out to be a HUGE fiction novel. I know, the believers will not be swayed by thinking outside the box. But what if that turned out to be true ???

What happens ?

A lot of them probably vote Democrat.

Then we are trapped in a box. But what if you die and go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman)??? What then? Or what if you're living in a simulation and when you die you wake up into the "real world"?

Epstein didn't commit suicide.

If you have a spirit, it can't be contained in a box.

Interesting. I would like to see stats on that. The Catholics I know of are too pro life to vote for abortion. I don't dislike Catholics, I just don't believe that some of their doctrine is biblical, but tradition.

Then I have lost absolutely nothing and will have lived a good and moral life loving others as myself.
But won't you look like a fool having laughed and mocked me the entire way and we both end up dead and gone.

Speaking of “what if”, what if what John describes in Revelation happens after we pass. Sure would help explain why there always seems to be a cycle of “end times”. 150,000 people die a day on a planet that has both night and day. That would be a lot of people to John and the sky can open and trumpets sounding for all of them if they are on the other side. lol

I committed this to memory years ago.

There is a time, I know not when,
A place, I know not where,
Which marks the destiny of men
To Heaven or despair.

There is a line by us not seen,
Which crosses every path;
The hidden boundary between
God's patience and His wrath.

To cross that limit is to die,
To die, as if by stealth.
It may not pale the beaming eye,
Nor quench the glowing health.

The conscience may be still at ease,
The Spirit light and gay.
That which is pleasing still may please
And care be thrust away.

But on that forehead God hath set
Indelibly a mark,
By man unseen, for man as yet
Is blind and in the dark.

And still the doomed man's path below
May bloom like Eden bloomed.
He did not, does not, will not know,
Now feel that he is doomed.

He feels, he sees that all is well,
His every fear is calmed.
He lives, he dies, he wakes in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman),
Not only doomed, but damned.

Oh, where is that mysterious bourn,
By which each path is crossed,
Beyond which God Himself hath sworn
That he who goes is lost?

It looks to me like you didn't get that from the Bible.

Matthew 6:6

6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…



Perhaps you genuinely feel that the God you were taught about doesn't make sense. I think it's in part because the Christianity you were taught doesn't make sense to you. Catholicism Is very different from how some others interpret the Bible.

I imagine you are aware if this.

I could go on, but I'm not sure if you are really seeking answers, or just like to debate.

Valid question that's been asked by millions.
You might start with two key considerations that help you answer your Q;
1. Are we really here? Or are the gnostics correct in that this life is one big quest to get to the real place.... the demiurge! If you believe you are really here,
2. Did Christ rise from the grave on the third day?

You'll decide for yourself what your answers are to these two fundamental questions.

I was a nominal Christian for a number of years...meaning I professed something I didn't possess. Can someone be regenerated, be "born again" and not know it? Maybe, but that's certainly not my experience. When God moves in your life you know it.

It isn’t unheard of that some burn out and require another dip.

That's funny no matter who you are!

Jim

Obvious if you can commit suiside your not all there to say the least

Just another mistake they make.

They also choose to ignore where the Bible tells us to use Capital Punishment.

As for question 1, I've read a cosmology theory that is Gnostic. It postulates that everything we see, including others and ourselves, are just holograms projected by some super-powerful alien race. The reasoning goes like this:

The universe is very old, something like 13.4 billion years if memory serves. The universe is also massive, perhaps infinite. Given the time and size, the law of averages says there must be some super-advanced species out there capable of projecting everything as a hologram. And because they can, they will do it. In ancient times people believed the stars and planets were projected on a dome. That's essentially what these aliens are doing, according to the theory.

I'm not trying to debate anything here. I do at times post to debate--I don't see anything wrong with that--but this thread is aimed at speculations and beliefs--what others think.

Jim

Your statement makes me wonder if you are all there to say the least.

This subject is personal to me because my maternal grandfather killed himself the year before I was born.

Aside from an almost unbearable loss, it created a dilemma for my mother's strict Catholic family. Their faith held that suicide is a mortal sin.

But my maternal family must have been counseled by a priest or someone; they comforted themselves by believing my grandfather was in heaven because God didn't judge people for things they do when not in their right mind.

Jim

Didn't know I was a pantheist and never heard of it, learn something new every day I guess.

I don't fault or sneer at your beliefs, I have respect in fact those that believe. I do not mean to belittle anyone.

That said I know what I believe to be true as a undeniable fact tho.

Matter can't be destroyed, only changes form.

Quoting scriptures does nothing to prove anything.

At least I can dig up scientific papers to prove my beliefs.

I doubt my belief will be popular here with either side. I believe if you just pop yourself in the head without any thoughts in your head before hand you're probably going to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). But I ALSO believe if you pray just beforehand with a "forgive me God but I'm not strong enough" or "Please God help me" or some other honest sentiment you might not have a one way ticket there.

I went to high school with a kid, who's dad shot and killed himself on the anniversary of his father doing the same.
Think that wouldn't be rough on a family ?
But you bring up some rough memories. I was in grade school in a tiny rural town in 3rd or 4th ? grade. The classes were combined. We had the preachers daughter in our class, and her mother went in the bathroom at home with a 12 gauge shotgun
and cured her migraine head aches.
Still haven't got my head wrapped around that, over 60 years ago.

Sometimes people just get tired of living. If they're religious and can justify it in their mind, they just think they're going home.

A guy I work withs dad shot his mom and then himself in the bathroom. His mother was terminally I'll and in pain begged her husband for some time to ease her pain. Guess he couldn't tell her no and also couldn't live in prison. ( heard the story from his childhood friend I also work with that found them.)

The only thing I know for sure is it's a mind trip for the survivors and the victim gets burned or cremated. The undertaker gets paid.

What about an accidental suicide,like drug overdose?

In any event, it's certainly a very responsible position of the RC church to take, given that it has the potential to sway some suffering folks if their belief is strong enough. Suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem as "they" say.

A stand against it would be only the only responsible stand to take. Better than romanticize it .

My grandpa's little sister wanted to get married at 17 and her parents forbade it. They went to town one Sat morning and came home to find she had drank carbolic acid and died. They was big players in the church and I believe she was pregnant and felt she had to get married so as to not embarrass the family. They didn't think his family was of high enough quality. So Sarah did what seemed the only thing, cover up one sin with a worse one.

Maybe Romeo and Juliet makes a good story but the splendor cools when the grim reality of death sets in.


Also. I made a mistake in reply above about Saul getting his arm bearer to kill him, he wouldn't and Saul killed himself. Most of the things I write are from the hip and I make mistakes, hate it when that happens.

Like another religion more commonly practiced in the middle east............

Ok ok ok, how about this one.
Your tired of living and loaded with$$$$ pop in the head but give it all to a church seeing you never gave
Much money at church your whole live .
As long as you give it all that's better right.?
Asking for my friend

Something about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

That wouldn't be a suicide, would it?

Of course some people do act like they're trying to kill themselves, when they do wild stunts like base-jumping or do it gradually with drugs or alcohol.

Jim

But what if you thoughts are too dark to bear?

So dark you forget the love of and for your spouse and family. I could imagine forgetting one's religion too.

Jim

Its pretty easy to forget Gods there on some days. Maybe they'll tell me I'm not truly saved and maybe im not but I can't help but think some days if Gods real why (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) isn't he doing anything? Other days I know better but my mental healthy is exactly healthy and I can tell you from experience sometimes you'll literally except the fact that you should go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) for what you're thinking and you'll be ok with that too.

I wish to only comment that your depiction of the Roman Catholic doctrine is pre-1968. Much has changed and suicide is not looked at as either a sin or condemnation into the dark angels realm. It is a product of acute mental illness. If you choose to learn, speak to a priest or theology scholar, or read some of the great material persons of faith have written on the subject in the last 50 years. This would be an incomplete process without a fairly intense study of the teachings of the Church on purgatory. That is in itself a massive undertaking.

However, I suspect you do not want to enlighten yourself as to the viewpoint of the Church in as much as you would like to win at debate or raise ire in those that discuss with you.

True

Take instruction from a group of people whos leader hides and moves perverts around so their group looks good? Really?

Thanks for bringing me up to date on Catholic dogma.

But you make an error in describing my motives. If you read the whole thread, you won't find a debate. As for raising ire, all I have to do is post on any subject it seems.

Jim

if you're being genuine, then I apologize for my assumption. in fairness, though...you HAVE started other religious threads that displayed an antagonistic "flavor". Prior Practice, and all of that.

To me, it seems like you demand that God should work in a rational (from a human perspective) manner. He very seldom does. We gripe and moan because we don't understand His plan. But how much of His plan (percentage-wise) do we see?

Life and death ain't nearly as complicated as you all seem to think.

Your born, you live and then you die, right?

I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic school for 12 years. We had some of the most disfunctional adults as teachers; sketchy predator priests and alcoholic nuns.
In religion class we NEVER read the bible, only read Catholic-spin stories like purgatory..... prayers to elevate someone into heaven - SURE!

The Catholic Democrat vote is another bizarre mystery. Liberal Pope cares more about climate change than human life, that says a lot!

Do you really wanba know jimmy??

God gave us all the right to choose, so maybe we should let God decide this issue instead of having humans debate this with our tendencies to rationalize in our own favor.

Bryce

Thanks gunit. You made my day. Ask for someone to do this 10 pages ago or so. Greatly appreciated

The Saved will go to Heaven regardless.
Not so for the Lost.