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A big reason why...

Posted By: Hodagtrapper

A big reason why... - 01/13/21 08:28 PM

A big reason why ammunition is so hard to find:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ld-in-2020-up-60-women-blacks-top-buyers

Add in Corona work slow downs and difficulty in manufacturers procuring components plus the hoarders and profiteer's the ammunition shortage makes sense!

Chris
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 08:58 PM

Still think there needs to be a more equitable means of rationing the tight supply other than first come, first served and dumping it into that black hole known as the supply chain. Pretty sure there is all manner of whacky stuff going on out there. I have no doubt there are people with means who would buy an entire warehouse meant for retail if they could. All the hoarding and profiteering is creating undue demand and panic buying.

Still think the makers, which all have marketing websites, need to retain enough supply to sell bricks and case lots themselves with single limits per order....and sell at full retail, plus shipping. That limits the influence of the profiteering and hoarding bunch and puts small lots into many hands, vs. large lots into a few hands. Then plow the windfall profits back into expanding production.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:14 PM

You're hung up on that aren't you...
Posted By: Sprung & Rusty

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by HayDay
Still think there needs to be a more equitable means of rationing the tight supply other than first come, first served and dumping it into that black hole known as the supply chain. Pretty sure there is all manner of whacky stuff going on out there. I have no doubt there are people with means who would buy an entire warehouse meant for retail if they could. All the hoarding and profiteering is creating undue demand and panic buying.

Still think the makers, which all have marketing websites, need to retain enough supply to sell bricks and case lots themselves with single limits per order....and sell at full retail, plus shipping. That limits the influence of the profiteering and hoarding bunch and puts small lots into many hands, vs. large lots into a few hands. Then plow the windfall profits back into expanding production.


Just like toilet paper last spring. Haha
Posted By: charles

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:26 PM

The ammo makers could sell receipts for future delivery. When the ammo truck comes to a town, owners of the future delivery receipts could pick up their ammo. This would be way cheaper than shipping small orders to our door.

Bulk chicken is being sold like this in NC.
Posted By: WakopaWalker

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by HayDay
Still think there needs to be a more equitable means of rationing the tight supply other than first come, first served and dumping it into that black hole known as the supply chain. Pretty sure there is all manner of whacky stuff going on out there. I have no doubt there are people with means who would buy an entire warehouse meant for retail if they could. All the hoarding and profiteering is creating undue demand and panic buying.

Still think the makers, which all have marketing websites, need to retain enough supply to sell bricks and case lots themselves with single limits per order....and sell at full retail, plus shipping. That limits the influence of the profiteering and hoarding bunch and puts small lots into many hands, vs. large lots into a few hands. Then plow the windfall profits back into expanding production.


When shipping and delivery is the hang-up, adding another line and process for shipping and delivery will do nothing to help the situation. It would divert labor and resources from shipping to the pipeline that already exists.
Posted By: Swamp Wolf

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:32 PM

Should find a buddy that bought up ammo over the last couple years when you dropped the ball and did not. Ask him if you can come to his home when crap hits the fan.

If you don't have a stocked up buddy.....good luck.
Posted By: white17

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by HayDay
Still think there needs to be a more equitable means of rationing the tight supply other than first come, first served and dumping it into that black hole known as the supply chain. Pretty sure there is all manner of whacky stuff going on out there. I have no doubt there are people with means who would buy an entire warehouse meant for retail if they could. All the hoarding and profiteering is creating undue demand and panic buying.

Still think the makers, which all have marketing websites, need to retain enough supply to sell bricks and case lots themselves with single limits per order....and sell at full retail, plus shipping. That limits the influence of the profiteering and hoarding bunch and puts small lots into many hands, vs. large lots into a few hands. Then plow the windfall profits back into expanding production.



I doubt there would be any "windfall profits" if you have to create and operate a retail sales & shipping service.
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:37 PM

Well I'm not at risk of going down without a fight for lack of means, but I've got at least 8 to 10 retail options nearby that normally stock ammo....big box stores, farm and home, gun shops etc....and that's not counting Midway or Graff&Sons. I've been keeping an eye on things, and haven't seen any ammo on the shelves in about 4 months. Now and then, I'll see one box of something I never heard of.....but nothing common. So whatever is going on out there isn't working to ease that problem. It's just making it worse.

Seems to me the secret to getting out of this is to put many small lots into as many hands as possible in hopes the masses will calm down. Kinda like when you have to ration food and water. Best to give some to everyone vs. to only one guy. Right now, the normal market supply chain is broken.
Posted By: GREENCOUNTYPETE

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:45 PM

just take solace that in the knowledge that billions of rounds making their way to private stashes , eventually people will be full or out of money in the mean time freedom seeds are finding homes.
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 09:50 PM

An example of what I'm talking about.....CCI has something like 30 to 35 different product lines for 22 rimfire alone. They also have a website from which you can order direct from them. So they have the means to take orders and ship already. They are not creating anything......all they need to do is utilize what they already have in place.

Convert lines to one or two of their single most popular products and offer bricks of those.....instead of putting them in cases on pallets to ship out, put a label on a single brick, then put those on a pallet that goes in a truck that delivers straight to the post office or UPS sorting facility for delivery. All those millions of shooters who are out now have a source for a brick, so no longer out. Basically do what mail orders like Midway are already doing. And get the full retail price vs. the wholesale.

We are all probably in good shape, but telling an empty chamber "shoulda stocked up last year".......when they didn't have a gun last year.........does not help them today. We need to find a way to get those guys off the field.
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 10:03 PM

Semi related example. Back in Aug, I used my last canning jar lids. Have been watching since and none anywhere in the places that normally sell them. But then remembered a bulk source, made one phone call and picked up 12 doz....at least a 2 year supply for me. So now if I saw a stocker putting lids on the shelf, I'd walk on by and leave for the next guy who is out.

We need to do the same thing....get some ammo in ALL hands.....so folks don't feel compelled to grab it......just because.
Posted By: GREENCOUNTYPETE

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 10:09 PM

durring the 22lr shortage CCI did reduce product offerings and make the most common products and especially the products that needed the least change over and calibration blazer was all we could get for a while.

many of the stores are already limiting people to 2 boxes.

many stores are breaking up a brick of 22lr into 10 50 round boxes.

right now even of stores only let you buy 1 box it wouldn't last the day on the shelf.

I was at Farm and Fleet in September and a case of 9mm had just been put on the shelf there were about 20 boxes left and you had to get a clerk to open the case and get you out your max 2 boxes. figuring it would take a long time to get a clerk I go to check on my son 10 minutes later it was all gone I got back as the clerk was handing a guy his 2 boxes
Posted By: Finster

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by HayDay
Semi related example. Back in Aug, I used my last canning jar lids. Have been watching since and none anywhere in the places that normally sell them. But then remembered a bulk source, made one phone call and picked up 12 doz....at least a 2 year supply for me. So now if I saw a stocker putting lids on the shelf, I'd walk on by and leave for the next guy who is out.

We need to do the same thing....get some ammo in ALL hands.....so folks don't feel compelled to grab it......just because.

So what you are rambling on about throughout your posts is that you think "someone" should regulate who gets to purchase these goods because the demand is high. Everyone should have an equal chance of getting whatever they need. There is a system like that in place. It works flawlessly on paper. It is called Communism You see, that's where the state gets to decide how everyone gets everything equally and we all know how the state is always fair and without corruption so yes, I'm sure we would all be knee deep with ammo and canning supplies if we just let them handle it fairly! crazy
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/13/21 10:51 PM

That is probably the first time I've been even remotely associated with communism. If you only knew.

Not some state actor......only the people that make it. Eliminate the middle man so to speak. Suck up the gravy so they can double what they are doing now. Then when supply finally catches up to demand, and things calm down, go back to doing whatever the market wants.

Seems to me this ammo thing has evolved into something like what happens in one of those middle east refugee camps. Half million poor souls camped out on the side of a hill when a UN truck shows up with 100 pound bags of rice. The desperate starving masses overwhelm any means of orderly distribution with only a few of the strongest and most aggressive making off with the big bags and everyone else left with an empty sack. That makes the riots even worse the next time.

That vs. a more orderly process like having them all line up single file and giving each of them a 1 pound sack. Same people, same amount of rice, only change is putting some order in place so each at least gets a chance at it.
Posted By: Finster

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by HayDay
That is probably the first time I've been even remotely associated with communism. If you only knew.

Not some state actor......only the people that make it. Eliminate the middle man so to speak. Suck up the gravy so they can double what they are doing now. Then when supply finally catches up to demand, and things calm down, go back to doing whatever the market wants.

Seems to me this ammo thing has evolved into something like what happens in one of those middle east refugee camps. Half million poor souls camped out on the side of a hill when a UN truck shows up with 100 pound bags of rice. The desperate starving masses overwhelm any means of orderly distribution with only a few of the strongest and most aggressive making off with the big bags and everyone else left with an empty sack. That makes the riots even worse the next time.

That vs. a more orderly process like having them all line up single file and giving each of them a 1 pound sack. Same people, same amount of rice, only change is putting some order in place so each at least gets a chance at it.

I'm not saying your a commie, I was saying the idea is. So how should the manufactures handle this? Let's think about it for a moment. Let's look at logistics. This wouldn't just be for ammo. This would be for everything that is in short supply according to your philosophy.
1. What if you live far away from the ammo manufacturer?
2. Do only people that live close enough to this manufacturer get the opportunity to buy it?
3. I assume you want it available to everyone. so now who keeps track of who has bought it?
4. It has to be shipped will it need extra security now to make sure it doesn't get diverted?
5. Do you intend to also regulate what they can make? Allow them to only make what is in high demand?
6. How do we know the people in line to buy it need it?
7. How do we know the person in line is buying for himself?
8. How do we know the guy in line even owns a gun in that caliber?
9. Do we have to investigate everyone in line to buy ammo now to make sure this is fair to everyone?
10. Who gets to pay for all of this security, background checks and sales people devoting their time to this matter?
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
just take solace that in the knowledge that billions of rounds making their way to private stashes , eventually people will be full or out of money in the mean time freedom seeds are finding homes.

Freedom Seeds!!!

I Love it!
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Finster
Originally Posted by HayDay
Semi related example. Back in Aug, I used my last canning jar lids. Have been watching since and none anywhere in the places that normally sell them. But then remembered a bulk source, made one phone call and picked up 12 doz....at least a 2 year supply for me. So now if I saw a stocker putting lids on the shelf, I'd walk on by and leave for the next guy who is out.

We need to do the same thing....get some ammo in ALL hands.....so folks don't feel compelled to grab it......just because.

So what you are rambling on about throughout your posts is that you think "someone" should regulate who gets to purchase these goods because the demand is high. Everyone should have an equal chance of getting whatever they need. There is a system like that in place. It works flawlessly on paper. It is called Communism You see, that's where the state gets to decide how everyone gets everything equally and we all know how the state is always fair and without corruption so yes, I'm sure we would all be knee deep with ammo and canning supplies if we just let them handle it fairly! crazy

Right You Are Finster
Posted By: Flipper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Swamp Wolf
Should find a buddy that bought up ammo over the last couple years when you dropped the ball and did not. Ask him if you can come to his home when crap hits the fan.

If you don't have a stocked up buddy.....good luck.

Crap hit the fan last week and everybody caved
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 02:06 AM

So when I go to CCi's website, I find they have the same online marketing options as other mail order places like Midway. What they don't have is availability. How can that be when they are the one making the stuff.

All I'm suggesting is they retain enough supply of one product line so when a customer checks, there is a product on CCI's website to buy. Limit 1 per order, plus shipping. That is no different than what Midway has. Same process. The limit of 1 brick (500 rounds), plus shipping is going to satisfy the desperate but discourage the profiteers and hoarders. If not, then CCI is gonna get rich. But I'd think the shipping costs will weed them out. But as long as a product is always available, need to grab anything in sight just because goes away, cause unless CCI is shut down, there is always an option to buy something, albeit more expensive than off the shelf locally.

So compare what seems to be the situation now. CCI claims to be making product as fast as they can, and putting it in the supply chain where nobody seems to know where it goes. I'm not in the industry, so I don't know where it goes, but as an end consumer, I know all my local shelve are bare....and have been for months. Here are some made up example numbers, but concept is all I'm suggesting.

Say CCI sells all product to several wholesale buyers......3 cents per round. Product then goes into the supply chain where it may get handled and resold many times before it surfaces on a shelf.....for 20 cents a round. Suggested retail is 8 cents a round.

What if instead of CCI sending it all out the door for 3 cents, they retain enough to sell at full retail on their own website. They get the 8 cents direct from the end consumer? Instead of sending it out the door in cases on pallets, they slap a shipping label on an individual brick and send it out the door to the post office to be delivered direct to end buyer? CCI gets nearly 3X the price for same product and end consumer gets it for full retail at best but half what some are charging now. Both CCI and end consumer are better off. And CCI can take all the extra profits and use it to expand production. All they are out is the small amount of extra handling at the source.

Only ones getting harmed are those in the middle. whoever that person is, I can see why they would not like it. But until things calm down, seems like a way to calm down the panic buying and get to the point where when you go to the gun shop, there is product on the shelf. Unless that is a bad thing. In the big picture, I'd think we would all be better off if 1,000 guys could get a brick vs 1 guy getting all 1,000 bricks and the other 999 nothing.

I'm set either way.......so makes no difference to me. I'm worried about the big picture.
Posted By: Finster

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by HayDay
So when I go to CCi's website, I find they have the same online marketing options as other mail order places like Midway. What they don't have is availability. How can that be when they are the one making the stuff.

All I'm suggesting is they retain enough supply of one product line so when a customer checks, there is a product on CCI's website to buy. Limit 1 per order, plus shipping. That is no different than what Midway has. Same process. The limit of 1 brick (500 rounds), plus shipping is going to satisfy the desperate but discourage the profiteers and hoarders. If not, then CCI is gonna get rich. But I'd think the shipping costs will weed them out. But as long as a product is always available, need to grab anything in sight just because goes away, cause unless CCI is shut down, there is always an option to buy something, albeit more expensive than off the shelf locally.

So compare what seems to be the situation now. CCI claims to be making product as fast as they can, and putting it in the supply chain where nobody seems to know where it goes. I'm not in the industry, so I don't know where it goes, but as an end consumer, I know all my local shelve are bare....and have been for months. Here are some made up example numbers, but concept is all I'm suggesting.

Say CCI sells all product to several wholesale buyers......3 cents per round. Product then goes into the supply chain where it may get handled and resold many times before it surfaces on a shelf.....for 20 cents a round. Suggested retail is 8 cents a round.

What if instead of CCI sending it all out the door for 3 cents, they retain enough to sell at full retail on their own website. They get the 8 cents direct from the end consumer? Instead of sending it out the door in cases on pallets, they slap a shipping label on an individual brick and send it out the door to the post office to be delivered direct to end buyer? CCI gets nearly 3X the price for same product and end consumer gets it for full retail at best but half what some are charging now. Both CCI and end consumer are better off. And CCI can take all the extra profits and use it to expand production. All they are out is the small amount of extra handling at the source.

Only ones getting harmed are those in the middle. whoever that person is, I can see why they would not like it. But until things calm down, seems like a way to calm down the panic buying and get to the point where when you go to the gun shop, there is product on the shelf. Unless that is a bad thing. In the big picture, I'd think we would all be better off if 1,000 guys could get a brick vs 1 guy getting all 1,000 bricks and the other 999 nothing.

I'm set either way.......so makes no difference to me. I'm worried about the big picture.


The reason that CCI does not have it available (I suspect) is because they probably have contracts. They probably only have it available when there is a surplus. Also, so now you are talking only .22? kind of a big switch from before. I'm not dogging, just trying to understand your position. Anyway, .22LR is by far the most popular round probably ever manufactured. It's cheap and can be fired from any platform. Trigger time cost much less which is why the demand is so great. From the past I know that .22 is the first to get scarce and the last to really come back and I suspect for those reasons. Regardless, I'm sure CCI is doing the best they can as well as Remington and Federal among others. With (a guess) 75 million .22's in this country it's going to be awhile. Let this be a lesson to you. When ammos is abundant, stock up and rotate your stock. It hurts less. That is if ammo is ever "abundant" again with the fix we are now in.
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 02:20 AM

Am i missing something here.......it says available and i can add it to my cart? If I follow through to checkout, says they are gonna ship it to me. Pricey, but at least I can get it.

So If I just bought an expensive club with nothing to shoot in it, I'm OK with all that.......just what I want is not available. All I'm saying is do what it takes to make sure the commons stuff like 22lr is always available.

https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfire/cci/vnt/6-948CC.html
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 02:31 AM

I was using .22 as an example. But if I was making the stuff and had a marketing website already set up, I would do the same with the most popular pistol and centerfire stuff. And maybe even primers. Not truckloads, just box or case prices so these new guys got something to fire. All of them know what is in most demand and should make that available somehow, someway.

I thought the same thing when I went to Sierra bullet's website. They are out of everything. They don't even have a reloading manual.....out of stock. Either they have shut down all direct shipping or something else is going on.
Posted By: Finster

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by HayDay
I was using .22 as an example. But if I was making the stuff and had a marketing website already set up, I would do the same with the most popular pistol and centerfire stuff. And maybe even primers. Not truckloads, just box or case prices so these new guys got something to fire. All of them know what is in most demand and should make that available somehow, someway.

I thought the same thing when I went to Sierra bullet's website. They are out of everything. They don't even have a reloading manual.....out of stock. Either they have shut down all direct shipping or something else is going on.

Contracts! LOL.... So let me get this straight, you're talking about ammo manufactures not having ammo and can't understand why there isn't enough for everyone and how they should be making more. Now you are talking about how the bullet manufactures are out of things ?????? Maybe that's because they are trying to supply the ammo manufactures? I don't mean this in a negative way or to sound crass but I am curious, how old are you?
Posted By: HayDay

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 03:46 PM

Sorry......I go to bed early and get up early, then have to do chores.

How old am I? Old enough to still have the Texan reloader my dad bought me in the 60's (John Wall's grocery store in Blairstown) cause he said he could not afford to keep buying me factory stuff off the shelf. The old Texan is about worn out, but still works. And still have enough powder, shot, primers and wads to last my lifetime. Still have every gun I bought or inherited and enough ammo to feed them to last my lifetime. A very limited selection, but with enough variety to take down anything from a field mouse to a grizzly bear. And I tend to be a one shot one kill kinda guy, so my stash is gonna last me awhile. So all this isn't about woe to me.

Where I'm coming from is to consider the plight of a young man who sometime in the past year decided he needed something to protect or feed his family. So has somehow someway managed to get his hands on an appropriate tool, but cannot find any ammo to feed it. Put yourself in his place when he goes looking and shelves are bare. All I'm suggesting is to find a way to help this guy find some ammo so he has something more than an expensive club.

I'm puzzled as to why there is so much resistance to that idea.
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 03:59 PM

Beating a dead horse....
Posted By: 330-Trapper

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by HayDay
Am i missing something here.......


Yes

Back at home, when I talked and didn't listen; Ma used to say " your tongue is in the way of your eye teeth...& you can't see what your saying."
Posted By: hippie

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 05:12 PM

Been a shortage for 35 years, if the ammo companies didn't catch up by now, doubt they ever will.

Amazing we could make enough ammo to fight 2 world wars, but can't supply civilians.
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: A big reason why... - 01/14/21 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by hippie
Been a shortage for 35 years, if the ammo companies didn't catch up by now, doubt they ever will.

Amazing we could make enough ammo to fight 2 world wars, but can't supply civilians.



Well we are the largest standing army in the world.
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