FHA Press release 2021 Market

https://www.furharvesters.com/pdf/pressreleaseFEB21ENG.pdf

He sure makes it sound encouraging!!!

Mark is a straight shooter(and a Trapper).

Dollar losing value will make prices higher along with a very short harvest with maybe coyotes being the exception. If rumors are true it will be interesting to see the results of Groneys auction in China on finished goods. I think prices will advance except for coon which will take a few years or more.

Why would all these so called buyers be calling and asking about fur. When It's already available through buyers like groney
Groney has probably bought more fur then FHA will be selling at auction In April. And I'm told Webkie Is the biggest buyer of coyotes In the USA.

I hope things go well but I can't see a price Increase on fur for this selling season. And If the borders are still closed that won't help.

First time in quite a while the pluses have the minuses outnumbered. Anything can happen in the fur market, as Downey points out it’s just a matter of who benefits. Or who is holding the goods.

smoke and mirrors, if that many buyers are calling why don't they sell all the fur they are holding?

Won't be hard to hold to stronger valuations when they just sold my product for the lowest price in 30 years. A furbuyer here tried that "I'm a Trapper" nonsense with me. He tried to con me into trapping beaver for him. Said how much he was paying more than the other bad prices. I told him since you are" a Trapper" and this is such a good deal you should jump on it.

Kinda defeats the auction purpose of competitive action to stimulate growth.

I'm thankful they are trying. If we don't have an auction option for us trappers , that would be bad news.

.... they sold next to nothing at the last auction they held and cancelled the next that was coming up.....action means more than words

Well It sounds like the borders will still be closed so how can you have a competitive auction. I was going to spend 1000s of dollars I would want to SEE what I was bidding on.

Groney Is offering already dressed fur. If I was buying fur that's where I'd be spending my money.

Plus, since you guys give it to him, he should be able to sell it pretty cheap.

It sounds like he’s trying to get shipments in so they can have something to sell and maintain employment.

I like his comment about the pandemic is nearing the end!!!! Really with two mutant strings spreading rapidly.

I hope he’s correct but I don’t see the market changing for a long time.


B

Supply is off. Demand is the dark horse. With the exception of coon.

From reports,Sojuzpushnina sale was up 30%.
Looking good for the auctions,Still lower than a couple years ago but moving in the right direction.

Maybe there is a reason they don't do this, but instead of sitting around waiting for the Canadian government to let you run your business, move your sale a few hundred miles south into a country that will allow international travel. Bring the samples, ship the rest from Canada. AKA what they were doing in Helsinki.

Why not start your own auction house down there?
Too many Anti fur in the States.

great ideal boco i think i will do that when i get my money from NAFA...the western state auctions sales in usa have out preformed auction house as of late by far.

Back in the day when Seattle Fur Exchange was in business, FHA partnered with them to have wild fur auctions in conjunction with the ranch mink auctions. Seemed to work out good for every one.

I know it was easier for me to go to Seattle (6 hour drive) than to go to North Bay (full day of travel going there).

Not sure where FHA would find a facility in the US that would accommodate them.

penny anti .
Read what Mark wrote again-there is a reason FHA is still going when many have folded,or come and gone like a flash in the pan.

Stoughton Business park.

I also seem to remember NAFA had sale in NY back in the late 90's, maybe?

....dont speak to soon that could change quickly....lol

The part where he was admitting Groeny was kickin his arse?

Never seen Mark write that.
He did say that the carpetbaggers were trying to take advantage of the trappers though when Nafa folded.
You have to understand the History behind FHA to know why they exist-the support they have in Ontario and why they are so strong and solid financially even in fur market downturn.

Dirt - yup, NAFA had sales in New Jersey, in the late 80s or early 90s. Back then they had a presence in New York City. In the once big “fur district”.

Lots of things have changed since the first time I attended a Hudson Bay Company/NAFA Sale.

BOCO,

Don't feed the troll !!! LOL !!!

w

The two upcoming auctions are being held in conjunction with American Mink exchange. Checked out the website and seems like an interesting group that is still owned in North America after NAFA and their umbrella of mink farms got sold overseas.

This has to be killing Mark Downey, the only auction left in North America that is internationally known and they cannot hold an in person auction. We can all argue who, how, where to sell but we all know that there is some truth in what the auction houses say, about them giving trappers an honest look at the market. Just costs us 11% commission to find it every auction!

Three or four state auctions need to get together and start something, we need more than one auction house in North America.

Unless I missed something I dont understand the negative towards a company that's trying to bring value into the wild fur market and is taking the time to communicate with us trappers as to whats going on. If you prefer to do business with someone else I understand but why the negative towards FHA? The trapping industry benefits from there existence.

Because its Canadian.

Best statement on this thread^^^&&

I suggested they try something, instead waiting on the Canadian government. They told me buyers won't buy my product without seeing them. They need to figure out how to get buyers ( not agents) to a sale. A lot of these buyers are former NAFA buyers, they seem to be cautious in the switch. Smart ! IMHO.

If they are trying so hard to communicate, why are they sending checks without telling the shippers what sold and at what price????

exactly!!!

Just once I would like to hear the Auction house tell It like It Is.

The fur market at this time Is In the crapper. But we are tying to do the best we can for our shippers.

Do the same buyers that buy at these country auctions also buy from Let's say FHA? If so and they are buying rats at a $3.00 average from these country auctions why would they pay more at FHA.

Country trapper sales and international fur auctions - basically 2 completely different buyer groups.

Years ago, the trapper sales in Oregon had an international buyer attend a sale on occasion. They didn’t like the way the sale was run and bought very little.

International auctions - graded lots

Country trapper sales - trapper lots.

That is the BIG difference. And it is an important difference!! Each way works for the intended buyer group. Don’t fix what isn’t broke.!!

Thanks for explaining the difference.

But If you can't cross the border you can't see the graded product you probably aren't going to buy. Would you buy any quantity of fur sight unseen?

Depending on the species and grade and price, yes I would buy sight unseen. Here are some examples.

Badger - IIIs and IVs
Ermine - any grade
Skunks - first lot in any size
Otter - IIIs and IVs
Black beaver - first bundle in each size
Bears - anything that sells for under $60.00

to name a few. I’m sure there are others. I know those aren’t the better grades but that is still fur being sold without seeing it.

At the April 2020 sale, FHA had pictures posted on line for the buyer to see. Better goods in most species. All the goods in speciality items like wolverine and white fox. Pictures don’t show everything but along with the catalog description, it works for some buyers.

Last year at this time nobody could have predicted the situation this pandemic would put FHA in. I agree Beav that nobody in their right mind would pull the trigger and spend thousands on fur that they can't even see. That's putting a lot of trust in the graders of a company. All that said, I sure hope FHA can hang in there. We need more than one buyer in North America and right now there only appears to be two for the majority of trappers. What happens if FHA folds? Groney gets to run the show. Has anyone watched some of the videos Groney posts on FB? After gas, equipment costs, and time in the fur shed, people are literally paying him to take their fur for $4 averages on coon, $10 averages on coyotes, $2 averages on rats, $8 averages on otters, and $2 for skunks. It's a shame. I'm always amazed that people don't pull their fur. So what if FHA folds? Now Groney can cut those prices in half and guys have no choice but to start their own small fur business or niche markets or dump fur to him for pennies. This really puts a squeeze on the weekend warrior trapper and young trappers that may not put up enough fur each year to justify shipping and commission costs with FHA. We need more buyers. The few country buyers that are left are fighting tooth and nail to hang in there to prevent a monopoly on the fur market.

Canada has lost fur buying firms just like we have. One now not so long ago 8 major firms and plenty of smaller out lets I am sure. I do give the FHA and its former organizers credit for staying the course and being willing to offer options and outlets for wild fur harvesters. We are fortunate in the Mid West to have two major private firms that deal with a lot of fur annually and having a viable FHA international firm collecting fur in our area is a benefit as well. We do have a few other firms that we can utilize as well. When, and if we see a fur demand increase in species we have here, coon, rats, beavers, reds and marginal yotes then having the international auction will be a good thing. I constantly read where many suspect and actually don't believe what the auction houses state or how they grade etc. I feel that those remarks are not always and in most cases rarely justified. It is good you like your markets and the prices you receive without much explanation or discussion. I sold most fur locally this season and to me it was a good option. I have fur to sell at the auction in April. The one thing I valued the most about the auctions were learning a lot more about grading, color, how damage was assessed and to some extent what was creating the damage, me or other causes. We all talk about selling fully prime and full value fur, but when one reviews the accounts and records one finds that nationwide very little fur is ever sold at prime or full value, at least wild fur. How much and to what extent one gets docked for lower grades, damage, size and color usually determines for me where the better averages come from.

Bryce

Nothing wrong with that.

What are coon mink n rat n beaver from Midwest area that finish bring locally? Have mine to market it, maybe should ship FHA an take out small loan as use extra cash an pay interest, might anyhow as got file taxes up come by end march an doubt can have 2 payment plans on state taxes an owe on UI benifits from $600 stimouls last summer for couple months, the fed u can ad on to existing plan but not state, blew wad cash on pickup an had trapping an stuff , take hit in check acct , gas prices steadily riding here just lately again

Hey coonman,there is a job available for you making traps in a factory in Minnesota.
The guy posted he cant find workers to work in his plant.

GFW is having an auction in China this spring. This was confirmed to me by Gary today on the phone. Why would anyone buy anything in a country that has their borders locked down. Also FHA sold a BUNCH of my coon, all my coyotes and rats for little of nothing this last month. I bet they will be sold at auction in China if I were to guess. If they were interested in actually selling fur at the same valuations they had for the auction they would not have given them away at PT last month. Not buying it. LLL

How much more could Groenwold pay the trapper if he wasn't using FHA as a middle man??

Yup, out with the old, cheap cheap. In with the new. Boy do we have a deal for you.

X2 on this, if Groney is the last means of selling wildfur, get used to getting a lot less than you would at auction, on a continuing and forever basis. Having as many options open to market a product is healthy for the business. Without an open auction how do you know if there is a market or for how much when things pickup, as they appear to be doing in Russia at Soyjuzpushnina's AUCTION with Sables this week.

Sojuzpushnina

Auction Season Offer Sales results

2020-2021
Joint auction 215 May 2021 – –
Joint auction 214 February 2021 Download "Rumor"
Joint auction 213 December 2020 Download Download

[/quote]
X2 on this, if Groney is the last means of selling wildfur, get used to getting a lot less than you would at auction, on a continuing and forever basis. Having as many options open to market a product is healthy for the business. Without an open auction how do you know if there is a market or for how much when things pickup, as they appear to be doing in Russia at Soyjuzpushnina's AUCTION with Sables this week. [/quote]

Not sure they are not working together. LLL

The sale continues tomorrow with the second section Sables being offered in the am. Results will be printed to registered buyers and brokers immediately after the sale.

Someone can read between the lines....Thanks Monster Toms
near the end of the reply from Mark, he actually seems to apologize or this mistake.
TrapperRon (Member here) has been a sour in his side for a long time he does not say the other persons name that brought GFW into Canada
so they are short some western coyotes this year.....I wonder why !
This press release should have been done 2 months ago, it was western coyotes that greased the door last year.....and they don't have any this years
so they have sour grapes.

LLL
How did you get a breakdown of what sold last month?

I called up to the office in Canada. The check they sent was not for anything they had sold last month but was from the pt after the last sale. They sold a lot more last month she said. LLL

Agreed. I think trappers have been shooting themselves in the foot. I've heard it stated on here "sell local in a down market, ship when the market is hot". Could just be that continuing to sell local may insure a down market. Groney makes good money buying and selling cheap fur.

Why? A place in the states that could logistically handle their efforts or a place receptive to them...? I suspect if this situation was on my governor's radar screen, South Dakota government wouldn't have a problem trying to accommodate FHA. The again, if Sleepy Joe bans international travel or attempts inter-state travel bans, it could make things more complex...

It seems like they could save a lot of phone call by just updating our accounts.

Well that would be too logical a solution to follow.
But for the 4000 cheques mailed out lets let the girls in the front desk answer 5000 calls
ever wonder what EASTERN ARROGANCE looks like

they dont wont you to know untill after you ship more fur to them for the next give away!

There's your answer.

Hogwash.

More hogwash.

And we hear from the Canadian mouth piece. LOL

What about your(and that other ejits) big mouth bashing Our auction house?
As an Ontario trapper I am closely affiliated with our auction house and elect a local director to the board and will call out your BS.

Nope! Ted Pappas told me about it.

......thats the same thing you told me about NAFA when you was defending them lol they are the way of the future you said!!!!!

If you knew anything about the auction houses you would know that NAFA was run by ranchers(and went down with them).
FHA has always been run by trappers.
And I told you C+T was the future.=Groeny knows it too.
I been selling fur in North bay for 49 years-you are wet behind the ears boy.

Ted told me it looked like this^^^^^^^^

......thats better than empty between the ears!!! lol after 49 years you would think you would know better!

I believe this is as close as you get. There has never been a time I have been sent a check from any auction house without an invoice. They update my account almost instantly during a sale. Why would they have chose not to this time? If you do not have questions then you are probably lacking something between your ears. LLL

Wow! Way too many negative Nellies out their. If you do not like where you are selling your fur than go elsewhere. That is always your option. People do not need to bash FHA, Groenwolds, or any other person trying to run a business. They are doing the best they can in these trying times.

X2

X3

I don’t understand why so many complain about the auction house trying to move fur. There are other options south of the border. America first right?

Personally, we know what our western heavy yotes will get us from a buyer. What I dislike is that FHA has made pickup dates in April mere days before the auction making it impossible for us to guage what to expect for prices there. I’d like to see my 17 yr old get the best $ he can for his hard work and the April delivery date for the next auction keeps trappers in the dark.

How much fur did you send up north to have them pt? I sent a lot for them to auction off. If you did send it then by all means I hope you did well. It is an auction house not a broker for other fur companies. LLL

I will add that they have never done "business" like this in the past. If you sell something are you not due a notice of what and how much before you decide to ship more? I bet none of you have ever got screwed by an auction house before like some of us have.(SHAFTA) LLL

Good morning read is it not Crosspatch
come two months from now when the accounts do get updated and we can see through this smoke screen they have put out

few people remember the PT sales with the muskrats back when the prices started to rise.
There must be quite an outstanding trapper in North Bay to catch 100,000 and then send them to Toronto is the point I don't understand.

Finally capitulation
Groeny is the Warren Buffett of the fur trade.

I have sent plenty of fur to the large auction houses for thirty years. I would say I have been very satisfied for 28 years. I was upset back in 88' or 89' when North Bay had it's issues and a few years ago when NAFA went down. All of my fur sold that year for a satisfactory amount, but my last check for 4 blanket beaver bounced.

Finally capitulation
Groeny is the Warren Buffett of the fur trade. [/quote]


Isn’t that the truth eh

Blood in the streets!!

The interesting thing is Warren Buffett has underperformed the markets, the last 10 years. Fact.

Or the Walmart of the fur trade. Buy cheap, high volume, low margin, sell below competator prices, eliminate competition, control market.

I sent coon last year because there was not many options, Wiebke wasn't interested, Groney after hearing prices, I wasn't interested. I rolled the dice. We all decide what to do with our fur, you want to know who is responsible? Look in the mirror.

Exactly!

X3

What I find interesting is guys submit at the wagon window, convince themselves “dun good”.

Ship, goods move PT and whine like a 4 year old girl. How much worse could it b?

What kinda prices on what section coon are the private treaty sales bringing ? Are they sell mink much ?

Since the accounts are up dated on a computer it can be done anywhere. So saying the Rona is the cause does not float. Is there a reason why they don't up date peoples account? I guess they can do what ever they want, but I don't think they are helping themselves, by stalling and not letting people know what sold and at what levels. I would think that as stuff sells it has to loaded into a computer, so why not do it once and have everyone's account update. It's very poor business as I see it. I guess I can not see a reason for it.

Groney treated me pretty good on my rats and coyotes. I was just a few cents off of a $4.00 average on my rats and my WI coyotes averaged $30.00 I don't see me getting that kind of money from the auction this selling season. And you have to figure In your commission and a per pelt shipping charge.
I hope the auction goes well for those who have fur at FHA.

NAFA treated me good and I instantly knew what my fur sold for when the hammer dropped. It's to bad things went south for them. But It Is what It Is.

Well Nimzy are you sending all your rats to FHA?

You do realize that FHA is slowly being infiltrated by the ranch mink industry don’t you?

I should call up there and have Cheryl tell me how much wild fur I have left there. But it would be a lot easier if they would of just updated the accounts, of course. From last check I had a bunch of wild fur plus ranch fox sitting there and now will have thousands of ranch mink running through the facility. I hope there facilities can handle a large group of buyers when they do open up.

In my opinion, FHA should of held the April auction at a nafa facility in Wisconsin. It wouldn’t be the first time an auction moved do to a pandemic.

If that don't bankrupt them, nothing will.

I don't think the NAFA facility Is available. I know they sold the new facility to Second Harvest.

I remember a guy named uh I think Mark Downey who moved uh fur auction to Seattle due to the uh a sars problem in uh 2003.

I am not in the least concerned that I got a FHA check with little explanation. Since I have dealt with FHA for a long time I am familiar with how they do things. Private treaty sales are accounted for after the next auction. This year the different thing was they decided to get that money in trappers' pockets before the next auction. At least that's what they said and I have no reason to doubt them.

After April when accounts are updated i will find out what sold private treaty. I can wait.

I got a check for a little over $100, and I have 350 or so coon. Hope they didn't sell them all.

This is what has always been scuzzy to me!

Thanks for this BP

FHA has always had a rancher on their board of directors.

FHA will never move to the States,the FN directors would never allow that to happen.
They may partner globally from time to time when its to their advantage to sell fur.
The States,at least under Trump was not a place the world wanted to do buisness because of his protectionist policys.
That may change for you under the Biden admin. .

Boco, I'm not suggesting they move the business to the States. I'm suggesting they have a sale (at least this year) where buyers can attend ( or will ) like they have done in the past.


This IMHO would benefit FHA, Buyers, and shippers.

When something isn't logical, back up and look closer.

,That is what I was thinking. Sam Walton

Under the biden administration we will be lucky to be able to trap.

GROENY ROCKS !!!!!

walleyed

Walton Yes. Likely a better analogy

The idea of having a sale some where (in the US maybe) where buyers can attend in person sounds like a good idea but there are two problems - people and paperwork. Let me explain,

People - the FHA staff will have to travel to where ever the sale is held. Afterward they have to go back to Canada. With the Canadian borders closed, how do they do that? Quarantine for two weeks? Even with computer access in quarantine, there are some things that have to be done in person at their building.

Paperwork - FHA sells wild fur pelts, which are highly regulated. They can’t just load up the samples in a truck and drive across the border. Both Canadian and USF&W have to issue permits and inspect the goods going both ways. I remember watching them load the truck in Seattle to send goods back to North Bay after a sale. Everything was checked off as the pelts were loaded. When the truck was loaded, it was locked and sealed. Truck could not be opened until the seal was broken in North Bay by Canadian officials.

Keep in mind that it took the Canadian government over 2 months to issue CITES permits for goods that buyers bought at the August sale. The goods were packed and ready to go by late September. Permits were applied for. Permits were issued the end of November or the first part of December. Can you imagine the hassle of doing the paperwork to move the samples back and forth.

Even if they didn’t offer CITES goods - otter, bears, wolves, bobcat and Canadian lynx - there is still paperwork involved.

Based on the above information, it is my opinion that having a sale in the US isn’t practical.

I’m sure some of you - especially Dirt - will want to disagree, so go ahead, feel free to tell me why I’m wrong. I look forward to the “discussion”. It is snowing here, I have nothing better to do!!

So what you are saying is they have done this before. Good, then they should good at it.

Starting to sound like a half ...ed operation.

I sold through them once and wasn't impressed, but I wouldn't like to see them go away. The more the merrier!

Yes, they’ve done it before. Multiple times to Seattle. Multiple times to Helsinki.

But ALL of those times were under “normal” conditions. With all this COVID stuff happening, these aren’t “normal” conditions. Not even close to “normal”.

I doubt you read, let alone understood, my entire post. Just saying........

Groeny appears to be getting things done in Canada during these difficult times Just Saying..........

FHA is not a fur buyer-didnt you read Marks letter?They were formed by trappers for trappers because trappers were tired of getting ripped off by all the crooked buyers.

So Is the Cambridge WI FHA location the main shipping facility to move fur to Canada?
So when Greg Is shipping fur to Canada does he have all these government agents counting and sealing all the fur? Can't be that big of a deal If their busy and shipping once or twice a month.
Maybe It's more of a chore to ship It back out of Canada.

The same buyers are still buying that fur through the auction house and are probably still ripping off the trapper. And the auction house is getting their cut, LOL

"American Mink Exchange is a family owned business, operated by the Tax family, a family with roots firmly planted in the fur trade. Located in New York's garment district, "

Maybe their U.S. partners can lend a hand?

What’s funny is that some in the Tax family I believe broker wild fur too.

More years past often selling at the auction house-taking from the trappers in the process. They buy the junk there at the auction,saves the auction from having to burn it.

I get what you are saying WissMiss. Maybe a sale in the US isn’t practical. But I still think it could be done.

Non-CITES goods - Raccoon, beaver, muskrats, coyotes, etc - move much more easily between countries. There is still paperwork to do, but they don’t have to double check CITES tag numbers.

If you were able to look at the actual paperwork in Cambridge, I think you would fine they make 1, maybe 2, shipments of CITES goods, just before the auction. By sending all the bobcats and otter at once. It cuts down on the paperwork.

Having the depot in Cambridge, also can speed up getting non-CITES goods back into the US. Greg sends a truck load of raccoon to North .bay. That truck brings a load of beaver back for whatever US buyer bought them. Efficient and inexpensive.

Makes sense.

Yes Marxists everywhere are feeling the tingle running up their collectivist legs....

Yes thank you Red China for this massive massive disruption. They sure showed Trump how to get 'er done!

Ive done a few things in my life that I'd say I was a professional at and have learned the worst people to have to deal with or to try to convince that something won't work or that you know isn't practical are the ones that have the least amount of knowledge on the subject.....
Kind of like when your wife says something she wants done shouldn't be that hard but she has no idea how to do it

The question is;" Would it be profitable?" Many times it has been.

"Despite the current global situation and the weakening of the US dollar, Fur Harvesters Auction realized respectable prices and exceptional clearances on most items sold May 20, 2003.

Since our February 2003 auction, the Canadian dollar has strengthened 15 points to the US dollar. Although the actual US selling price of beaver rose over February's average, this increase will not carry forward to Canadian shippers in a positive way.

The situation with SARS and its effect on the Chinese market has brokers and manufacturers of goods destined for this market place, very uneasy. As business in China has slowed to less than a crawl, we feel fortunate to have sold otter at only 5% less than February's level and cleared 98% of our offering. With the world questioning the magnitude and duration of this virus, we feel fortunate to have this sale over and done with. Positions like this are not easily taken and like all decisions taken here, we put our shippers first. Our competitor's decision to postpone their May auction and partner with Copenhagen Fur Center and sell in June could not have been easy as well. As Seattle was, and continues to be SARS free, our decision was strongly justified. Whereas Toronto is deemed North American headquarters for this virus, many buyers would have cancelled rather than risk contacting SARS.

Will the SARS concern be cleared up by June and will the American dollar strengthen to February's level? Our thoughts on both questions were no and our position was to stay the course. If by our June 23, 2003 auction, conditions do improve, we are very optimistic sales of wild fur will improve accordingly.

The market and interest continues to be very strong on wild fur. It is the poor mix of the world's current situation at this time hindering it. Such issues are beyond our control and must be endured. I hope this report finds you and your family healthy and safe, as this is what is most important.

Respectfully,

Mark Downey
Chief Executive Officer"

Yep, along with the people who have done things one way and think that's the only way to do things just because they've done it that way forever.

Again I just want an auction company to auction my fur. They say they will hold the valuations if sold pt but that has not happened. Selling in the bargain basement(pt room) is not an auction. It is being a middle man with my fur while making money on the buyer and the shipper. You guys defending this kind of business have a screw loose. It is not an auction. LLL

LL remember when Herman was the expert we were all supposed to shut up and listen to?

TRUE DAT, LLL !!!!

Spot on the money !!!!

walleyed

Exactly what I want as well LLL, however if FHA is firm with reasonable valuations some of our fur may never sell. The competition is able to buy large quantities of fur very cheap. Using high volume and mechanized processing is able to keep margins low, undercutting auction prices. As long as it remains profitable to move large volumes of fur cheaply they have cornered the fur market, with no incentive for higher prices.

LLtrapper - so what you are saying is that the only time FHA should sell goods is during a live open auction. In this case, that would be twice in 2021. April and some time in the summer. The other 50 weeks of the year, the fur sits there. Right??

Remember the old days when Pleuger posted on here frequently, the debate was "who sets the market?"
Well it is pretty clear who is setting the market these days.

Until they actually have an auction and start at a dime, then it would be they have to hold the line. The way things are going some of you might get your wish, sell everything for whatever.

They have to sell so much fur other wise they will go under.

Exactly what the competition is hoping for.

They said that themselves. We will hold the valuations in the pt. Read it for yourself. That is not what happened. Why say something and do the opposite and expect that I will be happy? If they are going to sell them at a lower price in the PT room in a backroom deal why in the world would anyone buy at an auction? I have no issue with them selling them after the auction but at least keep it close to the values that they put on the fur at the auction or you might as well call them a brokerage. How many furs did they sell of yours this year in the PT room Miss Wiss? Did you get the valuation they put on them? I think I know both answers but if the answer is none to either then I do not know how your opinion really matters. LLL

Why are bobcats and river otter still on a CITES list when they are obviously not a critter of "concern" anymore, even if they ever were one? The two producing nations of these furbearers and the end user countries of their fur should get together and tell the other countries who insist on this extra paper work to "kiss" off. Of course, the 2 NA producing countries won't, especially with the current administrations in place. But it would nice if they did.

A college professor/colleague of mine, a liberal guy in the old sense of the word, has told me a story several times of some form that the U.S. Dept of Commerce supposedly "needed" to be filled out for maritime business. Someone with power got around to actually asking "why was it need?". After investigation, it appeared that the genesis of this form had started in the John Adams administration when there were serious tensions with France and the U.K....

My opinion matters because every one’s opinion matters. Even Boco and Beav.

To answer your question - I didn’t sell any fur at FHA this past season.

Bobcat and river otter are still on the endangered species list not because they are rare and endangered but because they are very similar to species that are rare and endangered. Like the giant otter and other Lutra Species in South America.

The people in the various governments around the world, especially in China and SEAsia, need the tags to tell the species apart and know which ones are legal to buy and sell.

Maybe they realize their valuation was to high?? Unless you have a market cornered on the supply or demand side its a little hard to just set the price. Im assuming most understand the risk selling at an auction house. Sometimes you win sometime it wasn't the best choice. Unless you think they are just straight up cheating you I don't see were the problem is. Being involved in the cattle market and auctions my whole life I've never seemed to hit the top and rarely have got what I hoped to but have learned thats the name of the game. Some people just shouldn't sell at an auction house im thinking. FHA has came across as trying to what was best for me as best they can with my limited experience and so far I will continue to trust them.

to someone they may. LLL

That’s exactly how I think it should work. Maybe have a 3rd auction or even a 4th for the year. Every 4 months would be sufficient.
You buy what you think you’ll need and wait for the next auction. If you buy too much, then you buy less at the next auction or you can sell to another company that didn’t buy enough.

This will sell our fur at higher prices because people will need it. This is their chance!

No BS PT room buying.

I don’t get Christmas whenever I want. I need to wait for December. 25th every single time!

Yea but then all the children cry that their stuff is not sold.
I am of the opinion that they should sell the fur that they recieve freely into the market,whatever that market is.
If trappers dont like the raw fur market conditions they have three options available-get out of the profession, hold their own fur,or find a market outside the raw fur market.
Or a combination thereof.Letting the carpetbaggers put limits on what the auctions can sell their fur for should be scrapped.
I think I will bring this up with my director to bring forward at the next board of directors meeting.

......there not an auction house either when they start giving fur away by private treaty for what ever they feel like!! that not an auction!!

LL that was the wrong question for wissmiss. The question should have been, "How much fur are you buying cheap in the Pt room?"

They are indeed an auction house.When they have a bunch of junk fur that no one bids on they are not going to keep it until it turns to bug dust.They will burn it or sell it.
It is right in their conditions in plain english(and french) for the consignors.
If you dont like the conditions, dont ship it or If you didnt read it you can just whine later.

Yes and where is herman now? Retired and rich, and I'm sure he had a couple buddies along for the ride.

BOCO NONE of my coon were section III. They almost gave them away and they were all valued at higher than what the average was. You are grasping for straws there. He said he would hold the valuations. They are having an auction this spring. They should not have given them away so someone could sell them at another auction in China. It is a bad move and will hurt them going forward. They will be the next to close the doors and then it will be only GFW. Maybe you can sell a few mittens out of your fur then. You just don't get it. LLL

They are indeed an auction house.When they have a bunch of junk fur that no one bids on they are not going to keep it until it turns to bug dust.They will burn it or sell it.
It is right in their conditions in plain english(and french) for the consignors.
If you dont like the conditions, dont ship it or If you didnt read it you can just whine later.[/quote].....boco i think alot of shippers will do just that'" NOT SHIP'" and what will that do for "AUCTION HOUSE" no fur= no auction......with the exception of canadians with no other place to market there fur. people are tired of the dishonest dealings!

The PT option should be done away with. If your there to buy fur then buy It when It comes up for the Intial bid.

.....boco i think alot of shippers will do just that'" NOT SHIP'" and what will that do for "AUCTION HOUSE" no fur= no auction......with the exception of canadians with no other place to market there fur. people are tired of the dishonest dealings!
[/quote]

I wish this was true however when SHAFTA wrote us all bad checks there were trappers on here saying they would still ship them fur even when they said they were broke. Same way with trappers selling their fur below cost of production here in the states. I will not put a knife to anything again that even looks like it will not make me a profit. Plenty to be made in the nuisance business without giving my time and money to someone else. LLL

Touché.

Our Indiana state once a year sale was today and from what I'm hearing....everything sold...

Fur harvesters does not just sell fur from trapper consigners. A lot of their consigners were and maybe still are large country buyers also. By holding the line on product they are also trying to protect their consigners. The trapper consigner's 200 rats or 10 coyotes is just a small part of their consigners. I do think that they should contact their larger consigners before offering up the goods at a lesser valuation which I think they may do. If you have 10 mink on the sale its not practical for them to do that. I think wissmiss opinion matters as much as anyone here. She has more in site into the how the fur sales work than most. Maybe rather than be so critical you should respect her opinion weather you agree with it or not.

In many cases when large dealers consign fur to an auction, be it FHA or in the past NAFA, their goods are put in their own lots and they put a limit on that lot. FHA will not sell below that limit. That is why you some times hear the auctioneer turn down a bid and say “sorry, I have a limit”.

When NAFA first closed it’s doors, FHA said they would no longer allow dealers to put limits on their goods. Dealer goods would be inter sorted with trappers goods and offered/sold at market price.

For the most part, they have stuck with that plan. However, in my opinion, they are still allowing certain dealers with certain goods to put up their own lots with their own limits. No proof. Just my opinion based on what I’m hearing during the auction.

I seen pics of your fur-it is top notch.
How long had they been in the cooler before they let them go?
It costs money to hold on to stuff,if there was no interest in coon(which there hasnt been for a while) I dont blame them for moving them into the market.
i wish I could get back to selling just a few hats and mittens,unfortunately it is hard to keep up.
I just seen Ron McLean on Hockey night in Canada sporting a beautiful pair of beaver and moosehide mitts.
The phone will be ringing tomorrow.
I think I will let it ring and go out to camp for a week.

If everyone's opinion matter's then it is my opinion on who's matters and why right? If you have no skins in the game you have no opinion in my opinion. LLL

I shipped them in March of last year as soon as they would come to get them. They were as fresh as anything else they had. I know where they graded. Remember they tried to have a sale or two since then. Open your country up and they may be able to sell something. LLL

Never liked the PT sales. Always felt like the trapper was bent over the table and felt it in the end! ( )
An auction should be competitive or it is not an auction.

Chris

Jurassic Park - so you would like to see FHA have say 4 sales a year. One every three months. Those are the only times of the year buyers can buy goods. Right??

How would you like to be able to only go to the grocery store or gas station or other retail establishment once every 3 months?? You have to buy everything you need for the next 3 months. Milk, bread, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever. No shopping what so ever, not even on line, between those 4 yearly trips. Would that work for you and your family????

I suppose for some folks in Canada and Alaska, this is what they do normally, a way of life for them. But in the lower 48 I’m thinking that a lot of folks, including members on Tman, go to the grocery store at least once a week, if not more often. I doubt they could survive going only 4 times a year.

Go ahead and tell me that isn’t a fair comparison. I think it is a very fair comparison.

Fire away................

So an auction is supposed to be competitive??

So FHA is selling muskrats. The auction stand opens the bidding at $4.00, which presumably the value they have on that lot. A buyer raises his hand and the auctioneer takes his bid at $4.00. . No one else bids. After several attempts to get more bids, the auctioneer says SOLD and the hammer drops.

Is that competitive??? Not in my opinion. To me, competition is having 2 or more buyers “compete” for the goods.

So, what is the status of travel restrictions in Canada? I know the border is closed to recreational travel, but is there no allowance for business and commerce?

Yes, there is allowance for business travel. Or there was.

Thats what I thought. Fur buying is business, not?

Canada has new travel restrictions going into effect on February 22, 2021. Required testing. Hotel quartintine upon arrival, etc. etc.

I will find you a link.

Not all business travel is allowed. A limited number of occupations qualify.

Last summer, Greg Schroeder, the FHA guy in Cambridge, Wisconsin, needed to travel to North Bay. That was not allowed.

Nothing is as simple as “business travel is allowed”. You gotta read the fine print.

It’s a total **** show. Last I heard Ontario still hadn’t vaccinated all the LTC folks.

The boarder situation doesn’t look good. Canada will be one of the last to crawl out of the hole.

Yea, I suppose BOCO's buddy the prince wouldn't consider the oldest industry in North America essential business.

Saga’s last sale was much better than the previous. With the world rapidly recovering. Even with an online sale, hopefully it will be better than August’s.

It should be

Fur Harvesters did not or could not figure how to move fur out of Canada to be sold. They got caught holding. Groeny figured it out. I am sure Groeny is moving lots of fur. Trouble is if you consign thru Groeny you will be taking what they can get. Which may be what Fur Harvesters did to pay their bills. The way I see it there are three parties to blame here for the current market and they are Fur Harvesters,CANADA and CHINA.

It’s not a fair comparison.

An auction is an event. And when the shows over, it’s over. See you in 4 months!

I’ve gone to Livestock auctions. If I showed up the next day, I would be staring at mud.

I’ve gone to vehicle auctions and if I showed up the next day, I would be staring at an empty parking lot.

The way it should be.

I say keep those disease infected Chinamen out of my backyard.
All you money hungry money grubbers can wait.
Everything is on hold.
Remember what yo mamma told ya'll-"patience is a virtue"
Hard for the Me Me Now Now generation to grasp.

That would be a demand issue imho, as long as there is more then one buyer in the room.

Why? It is a trust issue.

if you want to know why I say this( you may not) because the long time furbuyer (I know) told me ( not that he had to) the fur business is the most crooked business he knew of.

I'm going with that!

Kopenhagen sale next weekend. Over a couple million ranch mink to hit the market. It will be an online sale.

From what I heard is it was a good selling season around the world. Even the Russians may buy some.

I agree. So why would an AUCTION give fur away by PT? It is like the muskrat fire sale a few years back when the market was on fire shortly after they gave them away. LLL

Someone remembers that sale LLtrapper, did you get stung out of that one.?

Numbered company's sure do hide for the uninformed and to get share holders names in Ontario is like looking for hens teeth in a pig trough.

Perhaps most of the buyers wont bid because they know they can buy them cheaper in the pt room in a few hours so why get into a bidding war and drive prices up on the floor. Its same as buying the best bears before they hit the auction and than paying fair market value, who knows what they would have gotten bid up to. Nafa did that to me several times and it made my blood boil, and only always on my very best bears.

Yes. Lessons in blood are not often forgotten. LLL

Oversupply creates hard times. When there is more then enough for everyone why be aggressive? Useless you are speculating to feed future demands. Agressive is a relative term if you consider current country price levels.

I too believe an auction house should auction. Pressure may have forced a margin call.

I trust FHA to stay in buisness for the trappers and they have done a good job moving fur thru the pipeline during times of no demand.
The trouble with trying to compare apples to apples in the fur trade is that things change both directions in the span of a month or two.
Like any other commodity trading, timing is key and cannot be determined 100% without a crystal ball.

DITTO Boco on fur business

Kingrat the old bear buyer is not buying anymore, he has retired.
Seems they are not replacing the Queens Honour Guard head dress as they use to , those used up a lot of bear hides.

I always got good money for well handled larger sized spring bears.They were wanted handled for full mount taxiderm or rugs and the end user was in Germany.
I sold to Gordon Gray at the NW company in North Bay.

Nicely furred smaller bears brought decent money,I suppose the busby hat buyer from England scooped up those.
The auction house used to market our galls and claws from the hair bears until Ontario outlawed that in the mid 80's.
Used to be profitable taking bears in the spring back in the day considering the profits to be had from the hides,and the galls,and the good supply of meat for the larder.
I still get a craving for a big bowl of smoked bear ribs and a cold molson when watching the leafs.

Getting rid of the PT option will benefit the trapper as to price.
Why would you compeat with other bidders when you can wait and get those left overs via PT without a bidding war.
The auction house could care less they are still getting the commission from both parties. So the trapper Is still getting the stinky end of the stick.

Agree with you Beav that the PT sales seems to have more advantages for buyers than sellers most of the time. I have noticed that I have done pretty much as well on PT prices as regular auction prices following some sales. When wild fur is hot is when that usually happens.

Lately, not been happening much....advantage to the buyers.

PT is not bad. It depends on how it is done.

wissmiss will correct me( hopefully), if I get this a bit wrong. Back in the good ole days, PT worked like this. In the PT room you could not buy the fur cheaper than on the bidding floor.

I believe it was valuation ( what they started the bid at on the floor ) plus 10%.

The pt room should not be where the advantages are. And the buyers need to be taught that. If it goes a little cheaper than it will be on the auction floor.

Don't know about FHA but I was told that NAFA upped the price buy a certain % If that lot or lots got bought via PT.

I agree with you, BOCO.

But we need to keep all you diseased, filthy Canadian animals
out of the United States until you've had your vaccine & rabies shots
and are declared Covid-free.

walleyed

Back in the 80's and 90's there were at least 25 bears a year went out of here thru the German Luftwaffe guys rotated thru here on training. Miss that market. Brits, Dutch, Belgiums and Italians bought nil.

I'm sure the PT price depends on if the lot was a buy back to readjust lagging bids during a hot market, or one of the lots on pages of lots that they couldn't get a bid on in a down market.

It seems to me that it comes down to supply and demand. When demand is high the auction house gets multiple biders. When there is no demand they go through pages and pages of lots without a bid. What are they to do hold fur for years and wait for the demand to pick up all the while the supply is increasing. These are unprecedented times in the world, and the fur market is no exception. Who would of guessed NAFA would have folded or that Copenhagen would close shop. Nobody forced anybody to sell in the country, or ship to auction. Everyone knows the conditions of sale. If you made the wrong decision, live with it. This isn't the first time that fur prices have been depressed, although it may be the worst. My hunch is that in the next few years garment makers are going to be looking for fur.