Infringement on Trapper Rights by a NY Game Warden

I grew up in hunting, fishing, and trapping the Catskill Mountains of New York state. Some of my fondest memories of the 80’s were checking raccoon traps by flashlight before boarding the school bus. Back then I had often dreamt of trapping the big woods of the Adirondack Mountains in the northeastern part of the state.

In 2019 I was able to relocate to Hamilton County in the central Adirondacks, the most rural county east of the Mississippi (there are only a few plowed roads in the entire county and not a single traffic light). My work schedule prevented me from trapping that season but I got out into the woods every weekend and scouted for the next 14 months. I carried topo maps into promising areas and noted locations of scat and tracks. I vowed to run a trapline the following season. And I did.

In 40 years of trapping I’d never seen a marten as they don’t exist in the Catskills. But there’s a 30-day season for them in the Adirondacks, from November 1st - 30th, and during November 2020 I managed to catch six marten - the season limit. I found that they weren’t anymore difficult to capture than the long-tailed weasel or fisher of the Catskills, it was just locating them that was the hard part.

The deer rifle season in the Adirondacks is much longer than in the Catskills. It runs for six weeks from 10/24-12/6. Hamilton County was relatively devoid of people after that. I focused my efforts on grey fox and coyote. These species weren’t new to me but I knew that due to the harsh winters of the Adirondacks they were much larger than in the Catskills. I was eager to trap them. And I did.

December was an enjoyable and successful month, up until the last week that is.

On Tuesday, 12/29/20, I was returning to my vehicle in a parking area near a popular lake on Route 30, which is the only plowed road to run the north/south length of the county. An ECO (Environmental Conservation Officer) drove up beside me, exited his vehicle, and asked me if I was trapping. I nodded affirmatively. (In retrospect I realize that this was Mistake #1, I should have just said no and driven off.) He then proceeded to ask me where I had set traps. I pointed in the direction of my sets (Mistake #2). He then pointed to a back window of my vehicle and requested that I take out a rifle and show him that it was unloaded, which I did. And then he asked to see my trapping license, which I showed him. He proceeded to ask me what I had been catching. I replied, “fox mostly,” (Strike #3 - I should have said, “Not a darn thing.”) and he launched into a lecture on how fox, especially females, should be released, that they were having a hard enough time dealing with the coyotes. I drove away, kicking myself for answering his questions.

There had been approximately a foot of snow on the ground, and the next day while checking my Route 30 line I noticed somebody else’s bootprints on top of mine. This was not good. Upon arriving at my first two sets I discovered that they had been stolen. I always set doubles, about 10’ apart, and these two were both gone. I found this card affixed to a nearby branch:






The "meeting" would have to to wait. There's no cell phone reception on that stretch of Route 30 and I had two more traps to check several miles south. That double had also been taken, with the same bootprints and calling card left behind. An ermine had been stealing my bait at this particular double and so the previous day I had put an Ouell trap where its tracks had entered my clearing. That trap was also missing. This is a photo of an Ouell trap (the entrance of this trap measures 3.5”):





I had not mentioned to the ECO that I had traps in this location. This ECO ostensibly drove up and down the 150 mile stretch of Route 30 in the Adirondack Park, stopped at every parking area, and walked along both sides of the road searching for my footprints in hopes of discovering more of my traps to dig up.

All in all a total of five traps had been taken from my trapline. None of those traps should have been touched. At the very most they could have been fired, with his card between the jaws, but left in place. I'm no attorney but their removal sure seems that it would fit the definition of "unlawful search and seizure" in the world of trapping. This was NY DEC that did this to me.

(I’m aware that there are sportsman reading this who do not trap. So, imagine if you will a favorite deer stand. One planned months in advance, that required preparation, e.g. scouting, topo maps, anticipated wind direction, time off from work, etc. While you’re in your stand a game warden decides not just to trample through the ground below passing by obliviously but charges right at your stand led there by your footprints in the snow. Standing below he notes tree stand measurements, fastening mechanisms, rifle caliber, and other details. Not brought there by a hotline tip or any suspicion of wrong-doing whatsoever, just the mere audacity that he is above the law and so can disrupt your hunt in progress.)

Well, as it turns out I didn't even have to contact this Johnny-not-so-Sneakum to have a meeting. Back on Route 30 again I noticed flashing lights in my rear view mirror. I quickly looked at my speedometer before slowing down and pulling off to the side of the road. I hadn't been speeding or swerving and so was curious as to why I was being stopped. As I reached over to the glove compartment for the registration and insurance I peeked up into the rear view mirror again and realized that the vehicle behind me was not a police car, but the same ECO vehicle that pulled up alongside me the day before. The image of my vehicle and/or license plate must have been firmly imprinted on his mind for him to recognize me out there.

He did return my traps, but not until after lecturing me on why he felt justified to take them. He claimed that they weren’t tagged and that the ermine trap was illegal to use outside of marten season. I asked why my traps were disturbed in the first place, stating that he had no right to unearth my traps just to check for tags, that it was open season on fox whether he liked it or not, and that he should not have been following my tracks in the snow. I explained that I didn’t want to use tags in high risk areas, that I had a bad experience in the Catskills when one of my stolen trap tags wound up on a 330 set in a playground. I offered to show him tagged traps in my vehicle. I then explained that an Ouell trap was not capable of killing an ermine much less a marten, that an ermine would just be held in it alive and therefore free of shrew damage. I continued explaining that just that morning I had caught an ermine in an Ouell and showed my landlord and neighbor that it was very much alive.

The fact is that inquiries regarding trap size/model could have been addressed the previous day, roadside with unset traps. A request to show traps with tags affixed could also have been made. That could have happened. That’s how it should have transpired - the less invasive way. But that is not how it went down.

NY DEC clearly lists the "Rights of Trappers" in the trapping regs:






But this must be a case of "do as I say not as I do" because why else would the "No one" that they're talking about have pulled my foothold traps, which by all appearances were legally and lawfully set, out of the ground? I wonder what he would have done if they had been tagged. Would he have been so kind as to reset them for me, to re-bed them in waxed dirt with scentless gloves? And I very much wonder what would have happened if he would have come across a fox in my set, especially a female fox. Then what would this "No one" have done? Released it under the premise of checking for a trap tag?

Anyhow, I could see that my words to this ECO were falling on deaf ears, and the more I spoke the more my blood boiled. A little voice in the back of my head told me to calm down and to be careful so as not to act in a manner which I’d later come to regret. So I shut up and took a step back away from him.

He then had the gall to accuse me of trapping marten out of season and wanted to know how many I was “stockpiling” in my freezer. (Yes, that is the exact word he used, stockpiling. Ya just can’t make this stuff up - this is NY DEC.) I scoffed at the accusation and told him that I had only 6 marten pelts, all of them legally sealed by NY DEC, and that their carcasses had been surrendered to NY DEC as required by law. He then stated that he would like to have my freezer searched. I was taken aback by his audacity but realized that my silence could be perceived as guilt and so I exclaimed, “Then let’s do it!”

He followed me to my residence and once inside I opened my freezer and removed everything. I had quite a bit in there, a dozen different species all frozen whole to fill a recent taxidermy order. As I removed a large mink I could see in the corner of my eye that he was becoming aroused. I didn’t even bother to speak, I just plopped it right into his wide-open, eager hands. He said, “That’s a pale mink for a minute I thought…” I cut him off mid-sentence while removing a big bag of red squirrels and flying squirrels and said, “These are unprotected I can have as many as I want.” I showed him a bag of ermine and explained that I had to snap their necks after removing them from Ouell traps and that their pelts had no shrew damage. Then he saw a fox and asked if it was a male or female. I ignored the question and showed him the bag of six sealed marten pelts. I began to remove them from the bag but he interrupted while saying, “Let me do it.” (I guess he thought I was David Blaine and was going to slip an unsealed pelt up my sleeve.) I swear to God it took him three minutes to go through that bag. He went through them like you would go through a wad of wet dollar bills, carefully peeling each one apart to make sure that there was nothing else sticking to it.

But it was all worth it, for now for the moment of truth had arrived. The moment I had been waiting for was finally upon us. He began his apology: Okay Joe I was wrong. I was wrong to harass you, I was wrong to disturb your traps, I was wrong to be pursuing you all over the Adirondacks, but most of all I was wrong to accuse you of illegally trapping marten and I'm sorry for acting so unprofessionally and… Only problem is that this is NY DEC that we're talking about here and there was no apology, none whatsoever. There was only me daydreaming. There was only me thinking of what he should have said. Me thinking of what an employee of a respectable organization would have said. But this is NY DEC, and instead of him doing the right thing while standing there in my kitchen, in my house where I had invited him, he handed me these two tickets:





As he was walking out of my house the last thing he said was, “Keep on trapping.” In my mind I was thinking that his remark had to be tongue in cheek. Why in the world should I continue trapping? So he could follow me around this rural county some more and pull up some more of my traps in hopes of finding some petty violation? In fact within the next 24 hours I pulled the rest of my lines before he could go disturb those too. NY DEC got what they wanted.

The citation for the “Body Gripping” trap I find particularly irksome. NY DEC, in typical blue-state government ineptitude, is grossly ambiguous when it comes to the usage of a “body-gripping” trap.

Page 66 of the NY DEC trapping manual reads, in part, that a “mouse trap is a body-gripping trap…”





So does this mean that we can't legally set mouse traps on land w/bait in NY outside of marten season? Because that's the way the regs are written.

The Ouell cannot kill a marten, it's that simple. An ermine (a female ermine is 1/10th the size of a male marten) caught in an Ouell is pinned down but can breathe, it is stabilized and therefore incurs less damage than an ermine with a leg in a #0 foothold or greater. Mustelids caught by a foot or leg fight like there's no tomorrow, and therefore the following foothold traps would eventually kill a marten: #0, #1, #1.5, #2, MB450, MB550, and MB650. NY DEC permits the use of every one of those trap sizes on land, from October 25 to February 15, which is a good 2.5 months after the close of marten season. (The irony, one of many within the NY DEC regs, is that my summons for using a lethal marten trap was for the wrong trap - it should have been for the footholds, not for the Ouell.) With all the taxpayer money funneled into NY DEC one would think that they'd have this figured out by now. If they'd simply listen to Trappers they'd have had this figured out long ago. But this is ny dec, and it would take a $987,000 multiyear taxpayer funded project chock full of data and graphs and charts and statistics all encased within a glossy binder to convince this omnipotent entity what deplorable Trappers already know.

The following weekend was New Year's weekend. I parked at the trailhead of a very popular hiking destination, at the end of 10 other parked vehicles. I hiked in a bit, walking atop snow packed down by dozens of hikers. How boring. Eventually I stopped that to follow fox tracks which crossed the human trail. I reset my pedometer and after 120 footsteps identified a bit of a flat clearing (as flat and clear as can be expected in the Adirondacks) and decided that the following day I would bring traps there and try once again to exercise my rights as a licensed Trapper.

As I was returning to the parking lot I saw the eco vehicle pulling away from my vehicle. Now what? I had already pulled all of my traps. What more did he want from me? I looked on my windshield for another invitation but there wasn't any. This was the 3rd time he targeted my vehicle in less than a week. I couldn't get off his radar. I was beginning to feel boxed in, realizing that the county with the lowest population density east of the Mississippi was not at all spacious for humans, that its limited road network resulted in an environment which was actually very confined.

But I greatly missed trapping. Fur is thick and prime this time of year and the next day I was excited to be back at the popular hiking trail with traps in pack. But that excitement was quickly replaced with dread: there were bootprints inside the tracks that I’d left the day before. Trappers constantly reading the snow know that each man’s bootprints are unique. I recognized those prints as the ones that removed my traps and left me business cards. This son of a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) would not leave me be. He could have continued on the trail to the tourist destination to look for litter, illicit drug/alcohol use, COVID group violations, etc. But no, he had to follow the lone local Trapper. I was being hunted down, pursued, for no legitimate reason. I took three more steps then turned around in disgust and abandoned the area for good. As long as you follow the government's arrows you’ll be just fine, just don’t step off the beaten path. This is ny dec.

I never again set traps on public land aka ny dec's land. They got what they wanted, again.

In Hamilton County 82% of the homes are seasonal. The county ranks 1st in USA for percentage of 2nd homes. Basically what we have here are financially rich residents from the NYC Metro Area (primarily from New Jersey) who own Summer homes on small parcels of land strategically located between the public road and thousands of acres of public land (thereby effectively sealing off public access).

Had I been a man of means, like one of these financially rich 2nd homeowners, or one of the financially wealthy that arrive on remote lakes via light aircraft, then my footprints would not have, could not have, been followed. But because I am financially poor I am harassed. Prey on the Poor. This is ny dec.

I was born in this country, a lifelong, tax paying resident of NY state. I’m here legally (unlike the 1,000,000+ in NY that are not). I have no criminal record whatsoever. I served my country, an Infantryman. Just how many taxpayer funded hours should the government allocate towards searching for my vehicle and footprints?

This eco is not a private investigator being paid by a private citizen, he is a civil servant whose hefty salary is paid by the NY taxpayer. He acted on his own biases, not on any hotline tip; he had no cause for suspicion. He had no probable cause to follow my footprints, THREE TIMES. Apparently any of my traps can be disturbed on his whim, by his arbitrary discretion alone. This public employee can’t find anything better, anything more cost-efficient to do with his time? With the taxpayers' time? This is ny dec.

I pled "not guilty" last night, but the judge let the eco decide that I should be fined $100. After I paid the eco again said "Keep on trapping," and was as jolly as Fredo Cuomo. Driving home it dawned on me that being a warden wasn't his livelihood, it was his life. It was all he had. I imagine he keeps citation duplicates on the wall of his man cave in much the same way that a real sportsman would hang a deer rack, a bobcat, or a largemouth bass. I'd bet the 1st one of his career is framed.

It's quite plausible that in such a rural county as Hamilton, in the dead of Winter after deer season and before ice fishing, ny dec would be unable to fulfill citation quotas while fully respecting the rights of sportsmen. For them to catch anybody breaking the law they themselves must first break the law. The ends justifies their means, and if it the rights and freedoms of Trappers need to be trampled upon then so be it.

There is no doubt in my mind that ny dec has infringed upon the rights of many others. What sets me apart from other victims is that I've got the balls go public.

A warning to my fellow NY sportsman: This man has jurisdiction throughout the entire state of NY (not just ADK) and there are sure to be others out there like him. What happened to me could happen to you. To my NY Trapper brothers, and to all Trappers in blue states across this nation, I admonish you: Watch your back, today's Johnny Sneakum wears a badge and carries handcuffs and a loaded pistol.

I end this with a message to you ny dec people: We know that you people have moles on this forum which is why I waited two months to write this, fearing retribution if the eco and/or judge had read this prior to the court date. Your attempts at damage control during the past few years have failed miserably, and have not nearly compensated for the decades that you people have been treating us Trappers condescendingly. Your continued requests for beaver carcasses and female fisher carcasses in exchange for boy scout badges are pathetic and demeaning. The way you people establish seasons for fisher and marten and other trapping regs is utterly devoid of logic and common sense and only serves to disadvantage us Trappers. For years now there has been a steadily growing coalition of Trappers that have decided to give you people nothing; no more requested beaver carcasses, no more marten carcasses, no more fisher carcasses, no more fisher jaw bones, no more Trapper activity logs, no more cooperation, nothing. A growing coalition of Trappers who once granted you people the privilege of handling our marten, fisher, bobcat, and otter but have since revoked that privilege. I now understand these Trappers. And after experiencing what your eco did to me I now join their ranks.

If the season is open and does not say that who is he to set any policies other then the ones in the handbook? Id get a hold of his supervisor the guy is way out of his own lane if there is a problem that’s why they make rules in the first place is not a make it up as you go thing.

Joe, some of us spent a great deal of effort (trips to Albany meeting with Legislators) making it possible for trappers to use their DEC Document number on trap tags rather than their name and address...We did that so you could still place traps in, as you say, high risk areas and still be legal...

Maybe punch a few tags with your Doc # for those traps...

I’d call the main office in your area for clarification. Might be time for a MEETING with him and his supervisor. Just so everyone is on the same page.



B

If all the wardens are sleeping together your just asking for more harassment.

Good advice all.

The vast majority of us Outdoorsman are honest people and so when an LEO starts the hundred and one questions game we want to comply because we really have nothing to hide. However, there are a good percentage of LEOs who will write up a bogus ticket based on their interpretation of the law. It is harassment. I heard an LEO say once "I just write tickets and let the judge sort it out". I think they just hope you will pay it and not take the day off work to fight it. They see it as a feather in their cap.
So, unfortunately the best thing to do is to be rather rude, and just say " if I am breaking the law you can arrest or cite me, I am not going to start the question and answer game".
If it's obvious that you are hunting, trapping, or fishing they can ask to see your license, that's fine. But other than that, that's about all they can do. There are some instances at roadside game checks where they can look in the back of your vehicle, but they can't just flag you down without probable cause.
If you politely let them know that you know your rights upfront most of them will back off.
Don't talk to the police. It's too bad it's that way, but that's the world we live in now.

Take videos of your interaction with them, keeps everyone honest. I caught some guys hunting on my property this weekend and the DNR officer asked if I had photos, which I don’t and so he said there was nothing they could do then. Which I find interesting because cell phone that can take videos haven’t been around for too long. Wonder what they did before phones?

I should have mentioned in my post just above; you should never lie to a law enforcement officer. There's no need to even start down that road, just don't talk.

You broke two laws-your attitude likely resulted in the tickets instead of a warning.

Such a well written piece. Thank you. It needs to go in a magazine.
Truly honestly written.

Stories like this make me very glad for the wardens that work my area. They are absolute professionals and pro-trapper!

I've never encountered anything like what was described here.

I had a buddy who beat a so called trapping violation In court. Then every warden In the force had eyes on him. They finally got him and you know what he was charged with? It was littering he had left a bunch of Q tips behind when he pulled his coon sets. They had taken pictures of his sets and his tagged traps at those sets so he couldn't get out of It. He had also left some flagging behind at those sets.

Won't get out of the ticket for traps without tags with name/address or DOC#. The other sounds debatable

Rumor has it that a long retired ENCON that worked around my area requested a transfer from up north because of credible threats to him. Not saying that threatening anyone is justified. Just saying that your CO might be smart not to screw with too many people. Sooner or later he'll mess with the wrong gang. The Adirondacks are big, remote, swampy and thick. Just saying

Crap runs downhill. It's no surprise that DEC is now nfested with all kinds of aholes. After all, Cuomo is their boss. Anyone that doesn't see the correlation is blind.

Some game wardens are arses and some are nice.

I work with the Game&Fish, IF they acted that way to me my wifes advice and mine would be do not talk to them. I learned this the hard way when I lived in NY. Do NOT talk to them!!

You probably could have fought the body gripper, but due to your guilt of untagged traps the judge probably trusted the dec officer above you. ALL traps must be tagged in NY. It's in the regs.

If Tags are a Legal Requirement and You chose not to have them on your set traps you have no defense or excuse for not having them on your trap. You earned that Ticket. Your past experiences/feelings have no impact on the Law.

If it is against the law to set baited body Grip traps and your weasel traps meet the definition of a body grip trap.
Which by your description they do....You earned that ticket too...

As far as the harassment part, (Which it sounds like he is doing to me) His defense will be I am checking on a trapper with multiple violations.

You should have made him get a Warrant to look at your stuff. Anything he finds will not help you and can only hurt you.

You could have been pinched for each trap that he found in the field untagged...How many did you have untagged?? And how many tickets for untagged traps did you get???

Never consent to a search of your home (or vehicle). Literally nothing good can come from it, only bad. Its not your job to prove you are inoccent.

They got a lot of bad press some years back and really worked to improve their image with the public. I haven't dealt with very many but the ones I have have been great. I was a little surprised at their lack of knowledge with some of our regs.

You violated 2 laws and I would bet that if you read the rest of the regulations there is an exception for a warden to examine or pull traps as evidence of a violation. If you feel you have a case go to court but betting that you are found guilty. As far as talking to the warden he just got more information from you to seal his case in court. My advise would be pay the fine, not go to court and apologize to the warden and do a better job.

Can't remember where I heard or read it but one guy commented that sportsmen are criminals yet to be caught. Paraphrasing there. Based on the number of stolen scouting cameras, tree stands, blinds, etc. and the willful trespassing that goes on across the country, I'd have to question your statement. Those problems are chronic, widespread and committed by fellow outdoorsmen.

ZERO! ALL my traps are tagged! My good traps (Montana's and MBs are engraved with my back tag #) Any other questions?

You earned those tickets , now if you had tagged your traps and used a different style for the other trap what he is doing is harassment.

Any way now its time for lots daily walks in the woods thru nasty thickets to mock sets with lots of gutso smeared on branches he must walk thru and touch. Have some fun but no traps lol.

We had a warden out here that would check our lines more then we would, no violations found but after 3 weeks a phone call was all it took to stop it. Changed his attitude when his boss got after him.

In some states, a CO can search your vehicle without a search warrant. They can look in your boat, cooler, etc. too.

In my area, we've only had one CO that was a real butthead. He gave a farmer permission to have me trap some beaver that had flooded the farmer's hay field. The CO called me and said I had permission to trap the out of season nuisance beaver. I told the CO I could start the following day. He said I'd have to wait that he'd be out of town for a couple days and he wouldn't be able to check things out. He said he didn't trust trappers.

Shows how stupid he was. This was the middle of summer. Fur is pretty much worthless at that time of the year. Why would any trapper try to catch any other furbearer when they would be way out of prime? When I mentioned the CO to a couple other sportsmen they said the guy's a real jerk.

ZERO! ALL my traps are tagged! ( my Montana's and MBs are also engraved on the frame.) Any other questions?

you didn't make that clear in your fist post that they were engraved.

I.dont know if his are/were. He called me out on untagged traps. I said all of mine ARE and my good ones are also engraved.

Jim, I wasn't saying your traps...I was using the boxed-out verbiage you have here in the post...I'm asking JOE how many were untagged and how many tickets as he could have been pinched for each one...

Ah, sorry!!! I miss read.

I read the entire writeup. And offer my opinions from the GW side....

The OP violated two wildlife laws...by his own admission...and is now angry because a game warden did his job and discovered the violations. How do you think a game warden can see if your traps are marked/tagged without disturbing the set? He is allowed by law to do this and to seize traps set in violation. Dont have to return them either as illegally set traps are contraband, not just evidence. But, the OP said the NY GW did return them,and the OP is still unhappy.

The OP also ALLOWED the GW to conduct a consent search at his home and then got irritated because the GW didnt apologize for not finding any more violations. Seriously? THE OP made the choice to allow the warrantless search. The GW did his job by asking for consent. If refused that would have ended that.

The OP also states over and over that his trapping area is the most rural area in half the country then is puzzled why the GW found him and looked at him closer. The OP's sign was the ONLY sign there. It's easy to follow the only sign found. The GW kept looking closer because he found violations the first time he checked the OP. Would any of you do any different if you were a GW? Im gonna check you out if I'm not sure you are legal. Its the job!

All of us, as sportsmen and women, have an obligation to comply with wildlife laws and regs. The courts have ruled time and again that it is in the best interest of wildlife conservation to accept field compliance checks that are slightly more intrusive than what would be allowed at say a traffic stop for traffic violations. Research it if you think Im wrong. Take a look at the open fields doctrine too.

The OP is recreating on public land, but his story reads like he is inside his home. GW dont need probable cause to inspect/enforce wildlife laws in the outdoors, especially on public land. Even on private land reasonable suspicion will start the legal ball rolling. The GWs dont make any laws or set any regs. We do try to use common sense when we can but I see no harrassment here. Just a guy that caught standing a bit short and is irritated that he got caught.

Best response yet! Well said!

Joe,

I am so sorry this happened to you with this over zealous, anti trapping ENCON Officer.

I consider you to be a man of meticulous integrity in every thing you do,
and know you follow the game laws to the letter.

This sorry excuse for a public servant found two of the most minuscule
reasons possible to cite you with a violation the trapping regulations.

It appears that the ENCON officer has had an Illegal "Ex Parte" communication
with the Town Judge in violation of your constitutional rights when he had
a conversation with the judge about what your fine should be.

It may be grounds for an appeal, and the overturning of your conviction
on legal technicalities If you hire a competent attorney.

On the other hand, two ENCON violations within a 5 year period are grounds
for the revocation of your trapping license for up to 5 years if the arresting
ECON officer recommends it.

If this jerk reads this thread, he is likely to launch a vendetta against you.

Wouldn't want to be in your moccasins right now.

Call me if you want to talk about this, or send me a PM.

walleyed

Walleyed, we all have to follow the law in this messed up State we live in. If his traps were not tagged, he WAS in violation of the law! If engraved he'd be safe. Were they either? I agree with the over zealous part but he did not do himself any favors! My uncle outside Canandaigua had an unpleasant run in with a DEC officer years ago BUT was within the law and won his case easily. The body gripper was a stretch for sure! The judge letting the officer set the charge/fine was also very suspect!

I dont know Joe.

But, Joe missed a letter or two of "that law" he was supposed to be following.

I also didnt realize that in NY officers are supposed to pick and choose which violations are miniscule. Here in Ga, if I find one trap that doesnt have proper tag/stamping I usually get the trapper to show me on the trap where its at..in case I overlooked it...and then show me others..in the truck or in the woods that are tagged/marked..as I realize critters will chew them off sometimes and overlooked by the trapper. If I find two back to back unmarked/tagged traps...well.

Also, in Ga local courts without a DA or a solicitor, the charging officer is the prosecutor and is asked to make decisions on dropping charges, fines, and other aspects of a case.

In rural NY the ECO does often act as the DA for these cases, so it would NOT be unusual for the ECO to suggest the fine...As I suggested above, I feel Joe got off pretty easy if he had more than one or two traps in the field untagged and only got pinched for one...He could have wound up with multiples on the untagged at $100 a peice and loss of privilege...

Swamp, I liked both your posts and agree with you. Fortunately here I'm told by several wardens that they can't touch a trap to see if there is a violation but can after they spot a violation. Our exposed sets make it easy to see tags most of the time but there our times where they can't see a tag due to brush or how blocking was placed. 90% of the wardens I have ever dealt with over the years have been fair and reasonable people , sounds like you are from the same mold and one of the good ones.

I would add that perhaps the officer could have used better diplomacy or been more tactful if the conversation went exactly as described by the OP but officers should never apologize for doing what their function entails as long as they're acting in good faith.

I'm told its 100 apiece here too. The most basic law in every state.

Too bad one has to think about not tagging because of anti's, but that's not an excuse. Had he been legal, then he'd have a really good argument for his traps being tampered with, and that's something I'd push if it ever happened to me for no reason.

... I wouldn’t plan on moving to Georgia either Joe lol

.. the proper thing to say when a Warden ask you what you are doing is “ minding my own business “ then you’ll want point down and say you have a scuff on your boot... when he drops his head to look.... bust him with a lonestar longneck ( hard enough to induce amnesia of course) ... then get on out of there before he comes to... anything less will likely result in a citation for a violation nobody’s ever heard of ... like “looking with the intent to trap” or “unlawful possession of a butterfly”...that’s stuck your truck grill lol

...just kiddin.....lol

LOL
All this fuss because you got caught? Move on.

No trap tags no gripes Had a CO tear my truck apart when i wasn't around legally parked talkd to him before i seen my truck and a guy with a scanner told me that CO called in my plates even though he knew me and my vehicle he lived next to my FIL and I talked to him several times But he was 1 in about a dozen CO's i've known personally that were fine Men and Ladies and did their Jobs well

A GW inspecting the legality of any trap is not considered "tampering."

I would think a trapper understood this.

But I see that's not the case. Could someone explain how a trap can be inspected for legal requirements (tag/name/lic #/jaw spread/etc without the set being disturbed?

I would like to know this because I can use the info to teach the next class of Ga game wardens in May 2021 how to do it.

Btw,
Had to correct a new GW years ago that issued a trapper a written warning for having an untagged trap in his truck. Its not illegal to transport an untagged trap...its illegal to trap with an untagged trap...in Ga anyway. Yep, its a great idea to know the laws no matter which side you're on.

Savell,
Im trying to get a ride-along with TX game wardens in the Coldsprings area. Sorta a state to state familiarity thing..

I'll watch out for the dude holding the beer bottle like a club. He'll get the first one..

... what surprised me most about the whole deal was a Game Warden actually got out of the truck and walked more than ten feet from it lol

Swamp , based on my conversation with a local warden they must think that it falls under the reasonable articulate suspension needed prior to disturbing the set. So why do you assume that something is wrong and needs to be inspected not that its correct and there are no violations?

I also believe that someone participating in a legal activity that said activity can't be grounds of suspicion.

If we tag the poles on our under ice beaver sets the warden doesn't have to disturb the trap to find out who he's dealing with. He's still legally allowed to dig the traps out if he is so inclined. Might be worth asking your warden if a tag displayed above your set would suffice.

... a man already has to carry 2 longnecks down here... the wardens run in male breeding pairs ... I don’t know what they’d think about a third wheel lol

If a Trapper sets out 50 traps for Red Fox, the Game Warden has the right to dig up all 50 traps; to see if they are all legal? Does the Game Warden reset all those traps that they dug up ?

Here in Ga, trapping is considered a commercial activity, requiring a commercial license. Therefore, inspections involving closer scrutiny is permitted. Some states may not be like Ga.

x2

With the vehicle milage restrictions the Gov has placed on all DEC staff, there is a lot of walking in their futures!!!

I understand that point, part of buying the license is that agreement to be inspected. Which is fair .


How about this question at what point does it cross that line? When done once / or once a week?

It is rare that a GW will locate all traps that a trapper has set on a property. We actually do not even attempt to. I usually take a look at one or two. If legal, I'm gone. If not, I tear up a catch circle and conduct surveillance. Once the encounter is made I ask the trapper if others are tagged/legal.

There is no need to try and find every trap.

Yes^^^
I see some trappers put tags on the attachment end of extensions cables on body grips, snares and long chain drags, me included. This is perfect. This dont work on staked dirt sets.

You should stay in Tx. Ga GWs will walk 5 miles to catch outlaws.

No question Joe was in violation
of the trap tagging requirement
in this case.

He should have had two tags on each
trap stamped with his NY. State I.D. #

On the body gripping trap violation,
with an opening of 3.5" inches,
this Ouell trap is obviously a rodent trap
with a smaller opening than a marten
could concievably be able to enter.

The fact that the trap was baited,
and untagged probably contributed
to the eliminated any discretion
the ENCON officer might have employed
in not issuing these citations.

This has a lot to do with DEC Bureau
of Wildlife's over jealous protection
of the fragmented American Marten
population in the central Adirondacks
where any trapper who is tagged out
on Marten but continues to trap is
automatically under suspicion of
being a Marten poacher trying to
circumvent the marten trapping
regulations.

I'm sure that for ENCON officers
patrolling in prime marten habitat,
this is a point of emphasis with trappers.

The officer in question could have
displayed better tact & people
management skills with this situation.

I know ENCON officers in my area
would have deployed a lot more
discretion and tact.

When Trappers are automatically
assumed to be guilty by law enforcement,
then mistrust by trappers in cooperating
with wildlife management agencies
is irreparably damaged for good.

The greater good was not served in this case.

Joe Pennati had a target tattooed on his back
from the moment he tagged his 6th Adirondack
marten and then continued to trap.

All in my opinion.

walleyed

Ok ok wait a minute, did the op state that his traps were un tagged or that they were only numbered ?

Swamp Wolf if you was to pull a trap that I set on private property just to see if I might be illegal I would probably take that personally. If you look in the back of my truck and find all of my unused traps tagged wouldn’t that be a pretty good indication that you don’t need to disturb my set to see if it might be legal ?
I mean how hard would it be to figure out when I check my sets and ask to look at the traps I have with me ? You asked for a way to tell if a trap was tagged or not without disturbing the set . What I just said does not do that explicitly, but would give you a pretty good reason to leave or not leave the set alone .

My issue is the fox talk if it was not in the laws is he making up policy on what he wants done his way?

You guys would save yourself a lot of grief if you got to know your local warden. I have mine on speed dial and we know each other quite well. If I have a question about his thoughts on a particular set, I call and ask his opinion.

On a very related subject, all trap tag requirements should be gotten rid of. There is NO REASON to tag your traps what-so-ever. The tags DO NOT prove anything. They don't prove who set the trap or who put the tag on the trap or who even owns the trap. If the warden finds an illegally set trap the only way to prove who put it there is to set on it and wait until the guy shows up (game cameras may work too).

I'll be the 1st to say that all GWs (and many other LEOs) dont have/use very respectful/tactful language or attitides when dealing with the public. This is unfortunate as we work for sportsmen and women and the public in general and we depend on cooperation with anyone with an interest in our wildlife resources to be effective in our jobs.

Im not familiar with the NY situation with the marten trapping, but my advice there would be to make absolutely sure that trapping regs are followed to the letter since it appears there is some conflict with marten trapping in the Adirondacks. Yall may lose it entirely if the conflicts are simmering already. Best case scenario is for trappers and GWs to get on the same side of that issue.

I agree. I readily answer/respond to all such calls. To me, this shows a person is willing to follow the law. I like voluntary compliance. Shows a true sportsman!

I tend to agree^^^

Swamp I just wanted to say thank you for participating in these discussions as it gives us the other side and hopefully all understand each other a little better.

Thanks

Absolutely, I talk to a couple of my local wardens weekly... I have never had a bad experience with the Natural Resources Police in Delaware. Great group of men and women.

Screw the communist state of NY. I don’t know how anyone stays there anymore.

I am unfamiliar with the Ouell trap but just as a matter of information.......marten nest boxes are made with an entrance hole between 2-2.5 inches diameter. They can get in a lot smaller space than one would think.

My Warden refers me often for research programs and education classes with the public. I send her cat pics to geo track if needed and show her my license every year to not put her on the spot I’ve always done that just a habit.

... I also agree with having the wardens phone number... how else would you call to send him on a wild goose chase on the opposite side of the county lol

If the GW dug up the first one and it was in compliance with a tag on it he probably wouldn't dig up anymore. If everyone he keeps digging up is a violation then no he won't stop. That's his job

No need to take it personal....because it isnt.

The GW may not know you or whose property it is. He is tasked by law to enforce wildlife laws and that includes wildlife laws on private lands. No one owns the wildlife. It is owned by the people of your state and is held in trust by your state's DNR. To aid in doing this, GWs are permitted, by law, to conduct inspections, including looking closely at the gear a trapper is using to ensure compliance with the laws set up by your state's legislature.

Your method of trapper inspection at the pickup truck would be sufficient if every trapper was known/where they trapped was known/when they trapped was known/etc. Also, most trappers are encountered by GWs due to calls received or when the GW happens to find a trap or encounters repeated entry sign on a property on routine patrols. GWs stay busy responding to many other types of calls, working various seasonal activity, such as deer and waterfowl hunting, fishing, environmental enforcement such as illegal dumping, and boating activity on public water. So trapping enforcement, in mostbstates, is low on the importance scale for time spent by GWs.

But, with that said, if I know a trapper. Maybe checked him before. Never a legitimate complaint on him. Always legal in every aspect. Great effort & attitude. Looked at his gear (in his truck) and always good to go. I will refer him to landowners and call him a fellow trapper. I know when i see him parked at the back of a field or creek bridge that he is good to go. Maybe a quick license check but that is it. This is the same way I look at other deer hunters, duck hunters, etc.

I enjoy Tman. We are all trappers.

Ive been trapping since I was 12. Been a GW since I was 29. 56 now.

Thanks!

You only get to pull that off once....

I live near the NY border in VT and I hunt in both states. I was hunting the early muzzle loader season northern zone and the temperature got up to 60 degrees so I returned to my truck in the parking area. I noticed a DEC truck across the road in another parking area. Once I reached my truck the DEC officer came over to me and checked my license, No problem . Then began to lecture me about VT hunters road hunting and why would I even be in NY hunting. So I was polite and said check my record you will find no offences . The officer said that they had waited for me because of my VT plate. I said aren't we all AMERICANS NY-VT? I said it was to bad that the time you spent sitting waiting for me didn't seem to make any sense considering I was in the woods since a half hour before daylight and was not out driving around looking for deer in meadows to shoot from my truck. I also said I can't stand road hunters and hope they catch them all. I also suggested they aren't very well informed and suggested they check and see how many NY residents hunt VT and I would bet not all NY follow VT laws either. I said its not a state thing but a human thing. I had a chip on my shoulder about the added words said as if I had no right to be there because I am not a NY resident but I guess it's frustrating when you can't catch the law breakers. I also said I have NY residents that hunt out of my VT camp.

In Ga, all game and fish fine money goes to the county where the violation occurred...not the state.

The NY GW involved in Joe's situation appeared to me to do nothing wrong. He did his job. His actions were NOT anti-trapping. He investigated non-compliance and handled the violations properly. Your description is anti-game warden and that is sad.

I have always filled out a police report whenever trap has been stolen from me. It has been quite a few times. It’s only way I figure I can cover myself.
I sure thought this thread would bring out all sides of the story. It has.

Yes. I'm sure it hasn't gone the way the OP wanted it to go. He admitted to illegally not tagging his traps and admitted that trap he was using by definition was a body-gripping trap. I can see where he'd feel these were very minor and the warden was being overzealous when he could of just said, "just get them tagged" and "don't use these body-gripping traps", but I don't know many wardens who wouldn't have issued the ticket and followed up to see if he continued his illegal ways. This is what I gathered when I actually read his entire post. I'm not saying this warden is not out to get him, and I'm not saying his attitude may have POed the warden. I'm also not saying Joe's post won't put a bigger target on his back. Anything is possible.

My experience has been that most COs are decent, fair people.
My wife and I like to watch the show Lone Star Law. I don't know if it's just for tv or not, but the CO's on that show treat most people with respect and fairness.

After reading your story, it only cements the opinions that I have of certain enforcement individuals.

I won’t expand on that because this really isn’t a place you can share true experiences or ideas or thoughts on such things.

But I feel your angst.

Tag your traps like your supposed to do.All my traps are tagged,and I carry extra tags with me incase one gets knocked or chewed off.

Joe Pennanti spoke of the ENCON officer lecturing & admonishing him
on how shouldn't be trapping fox as they were scarce because of
coyote predation.

To me, it's an unspoken statement that he disapproves of Joe trapping fox.

While it does not prove anything per se,
I'd offer it shows signs of a ENCON officer
who at the very least, doesn't think Joe
should be out trapping at all.

The Officer reinforces this when he repeatedly
tells Joe: KEEP ON TRAPPING !!! as If
it was an unspoken warning that if you keep
on trapping in my watch area you're going
to get more of the same.

All the evidence I need, swamp wolf.

All in my opinion.

walleyed

I completely agree, this officer sounds like a real jerk and had it out for the OP. I just wonder, had the traps been tagged, would all this have still happened?

Looks to me like if you live in a communist state you gotta put up with communists. I wish you well but that is how I see it.

Maybe were not hearing the whole story. Maybe the Op has had some run Ins with the law before.

That's likely the bottom line. The warden may be a complete jackwad but if he didn't find anything illegal maybe he would of went on his way... the OP by his own admission said he knowingly broke the trap tag laws.

You say you been trapping in NY for "40 years".Then you should know the traps need tags.WHY did your traps not have tags is what I'd like to know.And it sounds like not just one trap didn't accidently not have a tag.Sounds like NONE of your traps had tags.Someone doing that is up to something shady in my opinion.The reason you gave for not having tags on your set traps sounds like Bologna to me,,and probly to the game cop too.Bottom line is,you KNOWINGLY broke the law,got ticketed for it,,and now your Boo Hooing about it.

^^^^This.

We have only got one side of this incident...Joe's side. Would be interesting to hear the officer's side. For the case disposition to conclude like it did in court (according to Joe) I'll stick to my opinion of the officer's actions as Ive already stated.

Sure dont appear to me like this GW was out to "get" Joe.

Joe, and some of yall, dont like the comments Joe said the GW made during his contact with him.

Every comment I read that Joe stated the GW said could be interpreted differently. We all offer advice that people dont like or want to hear sometimes.....GWs do to.

Seems like there have been several poilce-citizen encounters over past few years that didnt happen exactly as interpreted

You really should read the post before you comment. That was all explained in the original post. He intentionally did not tag these traps.

There are always two sides to every story. We heard one.

I read the entire post,,and added to my post that you just quoted.Read what I added.

10-4

The other ironic twist to this story is that this Encon officer
is also a trapper and has a history of harassing trappers
that trap "his" trapping territory.

Granted that the non-tagging of his traps earned Joe Pennanti
at least one ticket but this officer's history of terrorizing other
trapper's who dare to trap NYS public land in "his" trapping
area smacks of conflict of interest to me.

Perhaps some of those Adirondack trappers in the know
will chime in to add some local color to this story.

From what I know of Joe Pennanti, he is a straight shooter.

walleyed

I agree.
So far I have yet to get sideways with the local game wardens. I usually meet them tagging cats and a lot of them ask questions that lead me to believe they love the life as a sportsman as much as I do. I have had a couple get with me and apologize for having a "question" then I tell or show them what they need and they apologize again for holding me up. At that point I usually say no big deal, I will hold you up when I tag some cats and we get along fine.

I hope it is always that way.

Very interesting read. i am far, far removed from this situation, however have a lifetime of hearing both sides. One point worth restating, and probably the number 1 thing that torks off LE folks. Hunters, anglers, trappers very frequently construct "logical" arguments in their mind which somehow excuses them from following the most basic law (see tagging requirements). Then they are insulted when the Gw writes them a ticket for the violation. So as I read this the op had a bad experience with a trap tag in the past and decided not to follow the legal requirements. Ditto the other style of trap. I don't know how an officer could justify not writing those tickets.

As a landowner, a gw that put forth that kind of effort to investigate would be revered here, definitely a guy to make an ally, not a foe. The other thing to remember is that gws are no different than any other segment of the public. Some are great, some are average, some are poor, some are just having a bad day. Some are lifesavers, some are mostly useless. No different than society at large.

Seems to me to be a great opportunity to sit down with him and review what you plan to do next year, determining what is legal & illegal. 99% of the dozens of wardens I know would appreciate and respect that.

I dont recall Joe mentioning that in his lengthy post...

He didn't.

w

Swamp wolf. Just being the devil's advocate but I always find it interesting how the state owns the game. Guy gets poped for improper tagging a deer on some technicality and gets a hefty fine and maybe a $500 restocking fee for that over populated deer.

But when I hit that deer and total my truck im responsible for the damage not the state? Yet it's the states deer.

If my cow gets in the road and gets hit I have to pay for all damages because it's my cow. I would also be liable for any other damages caused by said cow like crop damages ect.

So the state claimed ownership of the wildlife but dose not want to take responsibility for it. Infact I'm required to get permission to deal with problem animals destroying my property or killing my stock. Even then some I can do nothing legally about( think hawks getting chickens)

When do the states wildlife ownership rights Trump my lively hood and privet property rights. Why do I need to get permission to save my crops.

It kind of seems like a spoiled brat kid or former city dweller moved to the country dog owner. Wants to let spot run loose and gets mad when it get in a trap on the neighbors property that informed him of the ground it being trapped. And dosen't want to take responsibility for the dead chickens goats or vet Bill's from when spot ran them through the fence or went on a killing frenzy.. They only want responsibility for some not all their animals actions. Amazing I can shoot the feral animals and neighbors dog but better not touch the king's/states animals.


All that said I do my best to manage my farm and balance for wildlife habitat. I plant for them , won't bushhog until the fawns are big enough that they move vs. getting mowed. I bushhog in sections to leave mutipal stages of growth so the wildlife has cover and habitat vs a large cut field, I leave grown up fence rows and make brush piles for small game cover Ect..

I limit my kids deer harvest on the farm often below our bag limits. Infact I haven shot one on the farm for 4 years myself and often drive the kids 1-2 hrs to hunt other places to limit pressure on our local population. I feed after season goes out in Jan-Late April to help the pregnant does and rut worn bucks.


I do feel like I shouldn't have to watch hawks eat my chickens. Point being for things so black and white there are a lot of double standards. I'm all for conservation but there should be comom since. Just look at the ranchers and elk problems with wolves out west.

Quit making stuff up Walleyed.

Why not?

Because he didn't know it. It's tidbit of information that came out on some other forum he posted this on... but like I said earlier anything is possible.

The taxpayers wouldnt support that(paying for damages due to wildlife collisions).Most people think they are overtaxed as is.

State dont own the wildlife....the people do. State attempts to manage the wildlife in the best interests of the people for the people using laws put in place by elected citizens.

We cant sue every person in the state when we hit a deer with our vehicle.but, some western states/fed gov do pay restitution for protected large predator losses.

There has to be a sytem of laws and regs to provide accountability. I hope your neighbors are like-minded about deer management or you just as well let your kids shoot what's legal....unless you own/control a large tract

I know all this sounds silly but what better sytem is there in the world than the North American Model of Wildlife Management? There isnt a better one.

As Joe explained in his story, He's new to trapping the area.

This season is his first trapping the area.

This was his first dealings with this ENCON officer.

Others have had similar horror stories for years.

w

If they violated the law then they deserve their penalty.

Yep they can’t say they did not know the law you would think.

Almost sounds like a sales pitch for communism. For the people, greater good, government knows best ect. When those making/ voting for those laws are so far removed from the natural world the don't understand it and its circle. It gets a little crazy. O look at those cute coyotes, wolf's and fox. Until they tear their family pets apart or worse get a kid.

The direction hunting and fishing is headed its getting closer to Europe and will be mainly a rich man's sport if still legal in a decade or two.

Neither the state nor the people own my farm I do. I strive to go way beyond and stay away from
getting close to the boundaries of the law. That said They can keep their ideas to public land or property they pay taxes on. I will do what I feel is right for the caring capacity of my land and family's wellbeing. I don't need bureaucrats and urbanites dictating what I can do.

Sure we have the best system and I'm thankful for it but there is always room for improvement.

Thanks for the response and insight. You have a tough job

Joe,

I met that same officer in the fall of 2013 in the Adirondacks. I was parked along the road checking for beaver and otter sign at a culvert between 2 ponds. I had out of state tags on my vehicle and he asked what I was doing. Told him I was trapping and handed him my non-resident license. He asked about my trap tags and I showed him one with my name and NC address. We had a lengthy conversation and before I left he offered to tell me some places to trap. He also gave me his business card to contact him if I returned to the area with the same offer of assistance. Obviously my experience was much different than yours.

Providence Farm,

I sure aint selling anything.

I feel just like you do about individual rights but there may come a time when you have to step back and look at the big picture. That picture isnt pretty or easy to understand but its what we have to live with.

I hope you have great neighbors always.

Providence-make sure you pay your land taxes on time or you will find out who really owns "your" land.

You know wardens are like cops, in that when you don't do illegal stuff anymore they tend to not bother you so bad.

I have read with interest Joe's complaints and the replys. I've been an Adirondack trapper for over 50 years and am very familiar with the area that he traps; very rural and mostly wilderness.I think Joe is guilty of both tickets. In New York all traps must have an identification tag. Trappers are able to get an identification number if they don't want others to see their name and address.As for the ermine trap it appears to be a body gripping trap which is illegal on land in the Adirondacks after the close of the marten/fisher season.
I do believe the ECO could have been more tactful and that public relations should be taught them at the academy. That too is part of their job.
Over the years I have known numerous game wardens; all with different personalities. Most were great people,but there were a few jerks along the way. I had one that harassed me, but never could ticket me because I was always legal.
One time I had an ECO threaten me with a ticket, claiming that I was trapping too near an interstate (the Adirondack Northway). He told me I could either surrender the muskrat I had or get a ticket.Naturally I gave him the rat. To this day I can find no law that said I was trapping illegal. Did he have the right to take my fur? Where did that muskrat end up?
I have never had a fish and game ticket, but that is not to say that unintentionally I have ever violated the law.
I would never tell an ECO where my traps are and in fact I go out of my way to erase signs of where I've been. Call me paranoid, but it is designed to avoid theft.
Also, I would never let a game warden into my home or inspect the contents of my freezer without a warrant
, even though there is nothing illegal in there.I too am afraid that I do think that most justices are unfamiliar with conservation laws and would take the word of the officer. I also think that a civil comprimise should have been offered. The officer was totally out of line stating his opinion on the trapping of foxes.

Joe: Condense your story to a page or two. Then send it addressed to your DNR Commissioner, your state senator and representative, the governor, and anyone else you can think of.

As it stands, your account is too long for most people to get all the facts--and that's what they're interested in getting, the facts.

Jim

This is what I would do to if I felt as Joe feels.

Then, both sides can be looked at. And the officers body camera footage can be reviewed to see what was said by both parties. Those videos can even be requested to be released under freedom of info laws. That should tell the tale.

This here is exactly why we have refused trap tag laws in Alaska. Still the Greatland in so many ways.

Don't know if this has been updated yet, but this is what we have in NY:


OGC 7: Staff Access to Property or Premises

Summary: The purpose of this policy is to address program staff's need for guidance as to how and when they may enter property for the purpose of carrying out their official duties. Entry may be needed to conduct inspections in connection with permit applications, to conduct inspections in connection with determining compliance with permits or other regulatory requirements, to undertake enforcement, or for other programmatic activity. Entry on to private property without the appropriate authority can result in adverse consequences for staff. As such, this document will serve as General Counsel Policy with respect to the entry by staff on to private property to carry out their regulatory responsibilities. All program staff should consult with their Central Office or Regional program attorneys for advice regarding their specific statutory and regulatory program authority.

Policy: It is the Policy of the Office of General Counsel (OGC) that program staff shall enter private property under the procedures set forth herein. In recognition of a person's Constitutional right of privacy and protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, this Policy establishes procedures to ensure that program staff possess appropriate authority to enter private property while carrying out their official duties.

Purpose and Background: The right to privacy and the right to be protected against unreasonable searches or seizures of one's person or property, is guaranteed by both the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, Section 12 of the New York State Constitution. Criminal trespass is defined as knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully in or upon premises (NY Penal Law §140.05). Unlawful inspections can result in the suppression of evidence obtained as a result of illegal entry. In addition, unlawful entry onto property can result in civil litigation or even criminal trespass charges. The procedures set forth in this policy are intended to protect program staff from the potential adverse consequences of entering private property without the necessary legal authority.
To avoid having to face civil litigation or criminal trespass charges, DEC program staff should enter private property only upon proper authority. That authority may arise from one or more of the following circumstances:


Consent: a business or property owner may consent to entry. Consent may be verbal or in writing, but it may only be granted by a person who has the authority or ownership rights to grant access. Consent may be withdrawn at any time, and once withdrawn, staff must leave the property. Consent may also be present under the terms of a permit, administrative order on consent, or permit application consent form. If a permit, administrative order, or consent form is the source of authority relied upon for access, it is advisable for program staff to have a copy of that document in their possession, with the access provision clearly noted.


Plain View: Violations in plain view may be observed and recorded from on-site or off-site, as there is no expectation of privacy when a violation is in plain view. Recording may be accomplished through such means as notes, photos, and/or videotape. Off-site observation may take place from adjoining public or private property, or through the use of State planes or helicopters. However, if staff uses adjoining private property that is not generally open to the public, that property owner must first have consented to entry on to their property for that purpose. Parking lots, shopping centers, and cemeteries are all examples of private property that are generally open to the public. Even in the case of private property generally open to the public, however, staff should be careful not to undertake any activity that interferes with the movement of other members of the public, or with the ordinary activity that occurs on that property. Observation of a violation from off-site does not justify entry on to the site (although it could provide probable cause for a warrant).


Search Warrants: Staff may work with their Central Office or Regional program attorney to obtain a civil or criminal search warrant. Search warrants are limited in time, duration and scope, and DEC staff must adhere to all restrictions and requirements set forth in the warrant.


Exigent Circumstances: This refers to entry on to property or into premises under emergency circumstances. An emergency situation is one that presents an immediate, substantial or serious threat to public health, safety or welfare. If faced with what they believe is an emergency, staff should first contact the appropriate Environmental Conservation Officer or the police, and immediately consult with their Central Office or Regional program attorney. If Department action could be deferred long enough to obtain a court order with no significant harm to public health or the environment, it is not an emergency situation.


Note: Under New York law, any property that is posted, fenced or gated, no matter how secluded, is protected private property. The unauthorized entry on to such property by anyone, including DEC staff, will constitute trespass. It should also be noted that regulatory inspections should be conducted in a manner that is reasonable.

Under the holding of Flacke v. Onondaga Landfill Sys. (127 Misc2d 984 [Sup. Ct. Onondaga County 1985], affd 177 AD2d 992 [4th Dept. 1986] rev'd on other grounds 69 NY2d 863 [1987]), overly frequent inspections of the same site may be deemed unreasonable and give rise to claims of harassment.

Note: Receipt of a complaint or other knowledge of a violation does not provide any independent authority to enter.

The question I have on this, is this example.

If , for example, you own a Farm, and you are hunting in your Corn field, Hay Field , or Pasture, and the field is surrounded with electrified Barbed Wire fencing; how is that ECO going to be able to gain access to that field ? It's fenced off with Barbed wire electric fence and the gate to the field is locked. Also of note, field is surrounded by Woods, and cannot be seen from the road.

So, there is a difference between DEC staff (biologists and such) and Environmental Conservation Officers. Your post distinguishes them.

Wasn't Joe on public land?

Im gonna wait at the gate for you to come out while observing your actions from a hidden location. If I see no violations you will never know I was there...

... drive his four by four, green Ford F-150 through the gate ... then call you over to his window for a drive through citation lol

... I thought that was the zodiac killers m.o. ?

Our F1fiddys are black.

Im telling too many GW secrets in these threads. Lol

Quit helping out the poachers.

Yeah...im strating to see the error of my ways...

.. awww Boco why’d you have to come in here being all dramatic.... they run episodes of game warden secrets on a dang loop on animal planet lol... go frost scrape a moose scroat to make pot holders out of or something lol

... we love you Swampwolf... you’re a goodun

Thanks Wilbur! Sometimes I feel all alone on Tman trying to explain another angle. But, I do it to myself...lol

... why is that truck in New Mexico?

... I still think there might be an off chance you’re the zodiac though lol

Was what he did a violation of law? Yes, technically. But, the fact that he beat the original rap in court and they had to resort to pinching him on littering... There's a word for that. And that word generally references the solid waste of egg-laying barnyard fowl.

If it were an isolated incident most of us wouldn't give it a second thought... But they're hardly isolated. We had one around here who was notorious for always "getting his man" until he got caught in some less-than-legal maneuver. He wound up quietly "retiring" from the force.

Mike

Thats what it looks like..lol

Thats in the "hills" of north Ga. Sure aint the swamps down here.

There's bad folks in every walk of life. Please dont group all of us in that category.

I understand that Swamp Wolf... But for every person on here who has had nothing but positive experience with wardens there is at least one, if not two, who can tell a different tale.

I had a run-in with the warden I referenced above. I was in the right... and after repeated aggressive questioning for 45 minutes he realized I was in the right and relented. The attitude of, "I know you're guilty and I'll keep hammering on that until you fold" erased any respect I had for his position. I follow the laws because I'm cheap and don't feel like giving ODWC anymore money than I have to... I've never had a wildlife violation and never plan to... But that isn't due to respect for the wardens.

After the experience I just related, and serving as a jury foreman on a wildlife case... The taste in my mouth just won't go away. Nothing personal, but the damage is done.

Mike

I didn't read the whole thing but it seems the op broke the law and is now crying because he got a fine? Am I reading this right?


Now with that said any experienced trapper should know how to handle a digger.

What other angle is there? That dang warden should have minded his own business and over looked the fact joe had traps set illegally. The audacity of you dang wardens is something else!

Mike .... I’ve had multiple wildlife violations... in fact I violate wildlife on a regular basis... but not having a cushion with a strap on it in a cat fishing boat shouldn’t cost $500... or a buck with a 12 1/2 inch spread cost you the loss of meat and another $ 500 .... now there might be a couple that I earned fair and square back in the day lol

.... almost got arrested for frog gigging by a game warden one time ... but I was able to outwit him lol

Unless your dealing with a bad warden who try's to plant illegal stuff on you.Know of a warden that was famous for this.

I hate that its like this with some GWs.

I had a friend of the family long dead now that was dirt floor poor and the biggest poacher I ever heard of. He feed his family on deer . Limits and seasons well were not even guide lines. Once a guy at work asked his son why his dad hit so many deer. His response was you can't shoot them out of season. Yep he would even run them down with that big green 50s Ford 4x4 "Greenie"

The warden's wanted him bad for years and could never catch him or get anything on him although they were so close many times. The stories I heard.

When they finally got him he was actually 100% legal. He was walking out of an area and called a friend to pick him up because his truck was on the next road over(in his 70s at this point and straitened up to around to 90% legal by now) on his way out of the woods he shot a deer on the back side of the field with his 357 ruger single 6 at 30 yards . The deer was a fake deer and his friend mark was sitting at the road awaiting in his truck. The conservative offers pounced.

With threats of charges on the friend he lied and said Jim shot that fake deer from the truck and the rest is history. They finally had there man after years/decades of failure. It was dishonest but I guess the ends justified the means to them. After all it's not like he had not broke every law on the books repeatedly and had it coming.

But seeing this as a young kid I became aware at a young age law enforce is not always honest or infallible. I learned a lot from that old man like how effective a ..22lr is and if you hit deer broadside it will tear up your vehicle but if you hit them running away it pushed them forward and dammage is limited if any.

Yes he broke the law many times just to feed his family. They lived in a 2 room shack heared with a fire place. I don't fault him for it. He was also one good practical joker.

As a young city boy 5-10 his house was the gateway for me to get out to the country. It was our base for hunting ,fishing and 4 wheeler riding before my uncle bought his place in the sticks. After that I only visited occasionally.

I won't break the law and make sure my kids know and understand it as well. But I have a hard time looking down on a poor man feeding his family breaking a game law to do so. Those deer belong to the people so I'm told by one source. By another I read God gave man dominion. Now trophy hunting poachers are a different matter. Nail them to the wall.

It truly was a different time back then.

I was about to start typing furiously...until I read the rest of your sentences...lol

Remain silent and don’t let them in your house. There not your friend. They have no case and there waiting on you to spill the beans on yourself.

Every town in the north has a well known family or two of poachers that never or seldom get caught.
i remember one fellow-his kid was over at the house for supper and we had pork chops and the kid asked where did you get that white moosemeat?

Wilbur,
You do know that most courts sets the fines...right? Not the GW. The GW may be asked for his input in rare cases that the court is unfamiliar with but nowadays there is usually a printed bond list they go by even in small courts.

The judge there must think a lot of you. Does he get to see you a lot with your hat in your hand?

wow this has been beat to death 8 pages, im born and raised in hamilton county where joe is trapping, i now live just north of ft, drum. the run ins i have had with state game wardens are few and far between. any i have had are respectul and always treated me well, the younger ones ask alot of questions trying to learn more about trapping. we have a state game warden here on ft drum plus the govt game wardedns they are the same way they dont go out of their way to bust your chops but if your doing the wrong thing or not with the state regulatins they will give you a ticket, i will hold my comment about joes situation to myself you guys have hammed him enough . only chiming in to say i set my first trap here in ny in 1976 and have never had a bad run in with a sate game warden maybe i was and have been lucky banchee

Sad that you feel this way about your GWs. Sorta like there is always someone out to get ya. That sux! I couldnt enjoy anything in the outdoors if I felt like that.

I'm trying to figure this out. You set untagged traps, got caught, and are upset the Game Warden crawled up your (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) with a microscope ? What did I miss ?

Take to court ask for jury trial. Best advice a police officer gave me recently. He stated, in Wisconsin find a jury of your peers that will convict you against the dnr. Not a bench trial a jury you only need one to dislike the dnr. Odds are pretty good you find one.

... objection your honor lol

... there ain’t many of us good ol boys left in this world....y’all game lawmen need to go a little easier on us from time to time... might need us one day lol

Joe, when the next revolution starts, you can run that human weasel off tarred and feathered just like they did in the first revolution. We supposedly got rid of "kings" at various scales several centuries ago. Too bad the politicians and the bureaucrats have crowned themselves again...

A CO has to follow the same rules as any other LEO. The constitution is the same whether it is a CO or a local PO. The 4th applies equally.

Well..I was about to quit posting on this thread but I read that I learned PF something he didnt know. You're welcome PF. Wildlife belongs to the people.

I wonder how youd feel if that old poacher lived next to you, you didnt know him well, but he knew your property better than you and your kids..and ate more of the deer from your property than your family did.

I know of a trophy hunter that killed big antlered bucks to sell the antlers so he could feed his family.

There is always another angle and that is why the legal way is the only fair way for everyone.

Could be other way around...

I feel that way about all law enforcement. They have all got bigger then they need to be. You can believe in big brother though. I can pull in to the local grocery store on any given night and see a drug deal take place but there is no cops around. That’s right there sitting on the county road by my employer trying to catch one of us going over the speed limit. They can’t get no money out of the drug dealers just the working people. I had my run in with the game warden a few years ago. Tried to get me for hunting turkeys over bait. I didn’t have permission to hunt on the property the bait was on nor was I trespassing I had permission on a different property. I was the on the ridge over and had no idea it was there. They took my gun and everything. Tried to take me to the cleaners. I won without going to court. I kept trying to tell the idiot that I had no idea who put it there nor was I ever on the property. I was guilty before my day. I do nothing illegal or look over my shoulder while I’m doing it.

... now all the poachers need to do is steal game cameras and sell them at the pawn shop to feed the family... less blood on your britches that way... and the deer paparazzi will just buy more... stimulating the economy lol

I figured as much.

I hope you have better experiences with LE in the future.

I’m like pf it’s always there properly till 10 of them is standing in the road and you total your truck. Then it’s your problem. I’ve heard of a few around my area that take a deer ever now and again to feed the family. I don’t have no problem in that.

They've been doing that already around here....a lot. I get multuple calls annually about trail camera theft.

Op got caught plain and simple then started the poor poor me deal.

I questioned Swap and resect the answers he gave and he stands out as one of the good ones. My issue with anyone is when they think their scat don't stink. I've had a ticket or 2 but my own stupid fault and i owned them. I'm human i make mistakes.

Unfortunately the younger game wardens tend to have a your guilty of something attitude and push tell they find a simple mistake. The whole you are breaking the law, not you are doing your best to comply with the law leaves folks feeling jaded.

I literally had wardens tell a bear hunt class in Nv that you will break a law and we will catch you. Shows how some feel about the folks that pay their salaries.

As someone i know once said in a dept meeting "uncle claude says we don't have to put up with this crap"

... I’d go on and die before I took help from a breeding pair of game wardens... but they’d probably be too busy writing a citation for me dying out of season to offer help anyway lol

Who's property? The people of Ohio aint buying you another vehicle because you can't avoid a deer.

And deer poaching isnt your problem, right?

Just how it is I guess. Like I said, nothing personal.

With our ridiculous trapping regs here you spend more time trying to be @#&$ compliant than you do laying steel... It's such a hassle anymore (coupled with p!$$ poor prices) you just get a belly full and say hang it all.

Mike

... I know you laughed at that Swamp!

Is that supposed to be a smart a$$ comment. Is there something wrong with my beliefs in a smaller government and less intrusion into our lives. Just because I believe there all corrupt that makes me some kind of weirdo. Just keep believing there on your side when and if this country goes to shameless. Let me know how it works.

There is an un-needed arrogance in a lot of people, including some GWs.

Didn’t read through 8 pages, just your initial post.
The reason he’s following you is because you broke the law and he figures you’ll break it again. You had traps that weren’t tagged so he’s going to assume other laws have been broken.
But I will say this, video every interaction with him. It will pay off in court, or in my case the judge saw the video before hand and threw my ticket out and basically told the GW if I was checked again he’d have him removed from the county. I had four straight days of video. Whether he could do that I don’t know, but I haven’t been checked since. In fact, that was 5-6 years ago or longer and one of the GW he enlisted to help him find bait came up on me and my boys at a State shoot and said I remember you. We talked a bit and as I was about to hand him my license he said, No need. I don’t need to see your boys either. I know y’all are legal and went on making his rounds around the field. Even he disagreed with what the other GW was doing and tried to imply.
Stand up for yourself, but you also have to take the ticket for no tags. That one was on you.

... yeah Mike... an old timer told me once “game wardens take all the fun out of it” ... I started noticing how much I look over my shoulder even when doing nothing wrong “ that I know of” ... and realized he was right

... but we still need good reasonable ones ....or else the resource would run out

... they just need to get of the nit pick ticket mentality

Not at all smart. We are both entitled to our beliefs, right?

... get out of here Swamp! ... I think I’m the only friendly fire you got left lol

I was not on the property that the bait was on. I was on the adjoins property and legally had permission to be there. I did not have permission for the property that had the bait on it nor did either of my two feet step a foot on it. I’m glad your a game warden in Georgia. I was wanting to come there and hunt with my uncle but I’ll stay out. I’m sure a guy like you would write a ticket for my pencil lead being to short.

Which post? There is a lot here that tickles me.

Dying out of season... I chuckled pretty good at that one.

Mike

Yes you can think of me what you want. I’m a nobody just like you.

Goodness. What are you talking about? I was referring to you saying that deer were the people's property.

I could care less if you come to Ga or not.

Law enforcement is made up of people. So naturally you get all types. Some are awsum some not so much. Honestly I'm surprised how the awsum ones stay that way after day in and out of dealing with the bottom 10%. It would be easy to get jaded.

My local Conservation officers know me and are pretty cool, well most of them. One is 5'2" and a real barney fith. They no longer stop me for checks I'm always legal and few will put in the effort like my family to access the hard to get to public ground we hunt. I think they like it . They used to give the 3rd degree based on out success rates but not any longer. Now it's a wave and nod. It they stop it often to give us a tip about a hot spot or event. Mostly good guys.

The resource is running out. There isn’t deer or turkeys like there use to be. There is no small game anymore. I haven’t seen a grouse in 25 years. I haven’t flushed a cubby of quail 20 years. But they don’t care. Long as they get to play god almighty on the wildlife counsel and get a new truck and special bullet proof vest and all the cool military gear to sneak around in the bushes.

Hope the Florida hunters read Ohiowoodchucks post and follow suit, lol! Keep posting Swamp!! It’ll just be locals hunting before we know it!

All wildlife is the peoples property. It is not the states to play god with. I’m glad you could careless if I came to Georgia. I hope you don’t lose no sleep over it. I can see why your state is trending like it is.

I dont think of you in any way. Don't know you other than your comments on Tman.

My wife says Im not a "nobody."

Man there are some bitter people on here. I don't know why some of you get out of bed in the morning. You sound miserable.

What state is playing God with the wildlife? What does that even mean?

I voted for Trump, Perdue, and Leffler. I tried to save Ga. Just took my battered Trump flag down in my front yard a few days ago...

Lol

Am I keeping em out?

I cant help myself...lol

I think I have some friends left.

... when I was kid a game warden touched me in places I wasn’t comfortable with

.. I’ll get em with the cancel culture lol

Handcuffs touching your wrists dont count..

I do like to sneak around in the bushes trying to catch those people that are killing out our wildlife. You got me there...guilty as charged.

I’ll come down there out of spite!!

But, I won’t be no fun, I follow the law and understand the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Come on down. You are welcome! We have great hunting, fishing, and beautiful country here. There are some excellent GWs here too.

You're all right Swamp. I got nothing against ya.

Mike

The devil went down to Georgia... he was looking for a deer to steal...

Threaten me with a good time.

Heck, I would probably call the local warden and biologists anyway to ask where good public land is.

Happens here all the time. I have taken a lot of calls from non residents this year about turkey hunting. Our public land is lottery permit only though, applications due by 1/8 this year. We had a lot of people put in for one.

Rob, I lived in GA when I was a kid... Take plenty of skeeter spray and the biggest water jug you can tote.

Mike

If you ever decide on a Ga trip get with me. I'll steer you in a good direction.

Will do thanks!


Side note:

Do I have to have my traps tagged?

Thanks Mike!
I should probably stick to posting about beaver and other critter trapping. At least I dont get called a "nobody." Lol

Lol

No...you can stamp them with your name or lic #.

This has been fun!

Ohio brought more coyotes in from Texas. They was tired of all the complaints they was getting from the insurance companies about the premiums they was paying out. I saw a bull hauler at a truck stop in mid Ohio. I spoke to the truck driver myself. He said he delivers them regularly around the state. Why not have longer hunting season or allow a larger bag limit. I saw seven coyotes the other day in my buddies pasture stalking his calf’s. I got one before the rest got out of range. It’s going to be a problem now for farmers that there isn’t any deer to eat.

Saw that.... quick google search.


That is probably all the time? Even if they might get stolen?


Don’t want my rights to be violated

How goofy is my state... we have to have everything tagged except for traps that are set specifically for muskrats.

Del Rob,
I stamp the pans of all mine with my number. Have had a handful stolen over the years but they never resurfaced.

I know of no incident in Ga where a trapper was charged that wasnt on scene where the trap was found set. Questioned? Yes. But, easy investigation showed that the number on the trap didnt match up with the rest of the evidence. Simple Po-Po work.

I instruct trapping enforcement for new game wardens. I gather some info annually from around the state about different trapping enforcement situations that were encountered.

My snares and bodygrip extensions have my tags....built into the cable loop.

Makes perfect sense.

Swamp, am wanting to go to S GA to bowhunt for hogs on public ground. Couple ? for you. What is legal minimum bow weight for hogs/deer? What license do I need for hogs? Thanks

I do the same thing.

No poundage limit for bows...used to require 40# min, but that terminology was removed a few years ago. Crossbows are legal. Must use broadheads.

For deer you will need a 1) non-resident hunting license, 2) a non-resident big game license, and 3) a deer harvest record (free).

For hogs only you will need just the non-resident hunting license.

There are one day versions of these licenses and you can add extra days for reasonable price.

Nothing wrong with bein' a nobody... once heard an old boy from GA say it's alright to be little bitty.

Mike

Joe:
Congratulations on your move. I pounded around the Adirondacks some as a kid and took lessons from Johnny Thorpe. Have some fun with this guy. Lay some tracks for him to follow. Go as far as you possibly can. Make some snow angels and pee a heart shape in the snow. Do some crazy stuff that makes him wonder what the heck you're doing out there. Make it look like you have some sets so he'll have to dig around with no traps. Do it a couple of times. Then, when the ground is bare, have someone pick you up and leave your vehicle for the day where he'll find it, so he stakes it out, hopefully, all day. You can have some fun with this.

Some guys on here might be familiar with a character from Northwest Montana named Fuzzy Barton. He has long since passed. The Region one FWP office in Kalispell has some pictures of him. He was a trapper and one time wardens were following him in the Northfork on snowshoes and Fuzzy caught on to them. He dragged those poor guys clear across the Whitefish Range and they followed him to a barstool at the Stillwater Bar.

Thats awesome! Keeping it fun makes the day go by quicker.

Classic!!

P.S. South Dakota doesn't have any regs on tagging traps with your info. It might be hard to believe, but someone in Pierre didn't think that was a good enough "gotcha" crime to include in our less than 3 pages of trapping regs.

P.S.S. Swamp Wolf, you ever take a game violation fine in cash and give no receipt...? Probably not. It happened to us out "West River" pheasant hunting. Yeah, we ended up being in the wrong, shot too close to livestock that we didn't see ahead of time when the birds were in the ditch. Landowner called the sheriff and he came blazing out. One of my non-resident hunters took the "fall" for the C-note fine. Sheriff took the cash and never gave a receipt. We probably got off easy with less fuss doing it that way. I doubt the State agency ever saw any of that coin. So it goes...

Georgia GWs DO NOT handle any fine money. As stated above, in GA all fine money goes to the county where the violation occurred, and is handled by that county. The state does not receive any fine money.

Ive never taken evidence or contraband from a suspect without giving them a receipt. I also ensure they sign a
return receipt when evidence is returned to them.

Why any LEO would handle money or other property without a paper trail and a video on their body cam, is beyond me.

Some of you guys scare me.

I’m afraid when they pass laws that anyone who posses a trap or a gun is a felon, you’ll be the first to turn me in.

Just don't post about it in the internet and you will be fine.

I believe Joe's first mistake on this post was referring to NYS DEC ECO's as Game Wardens - they are not. They are Environmental Conservation Officers and most of the decals on their vehicles say Environmental Police.

To one of Swamp's questions, yes they are DEC Staff. While Swamp has written some interesting comments on this post, I doubt he'd last ten minutes up here...That is not meant as a derogatory statement towards him (Swamp)......

Here's a story about the officer,

The officer started this inquiry the same as he did with Joe. He then spent 5 hours following the trapper and checking his traps and sets.

In the end when he couldn't find a violation with the trappers traps or sets, he wrote him a ticket for having an invalid registration on his truck,

The reason, the trapper had done some work on the rusted parts of the truck and primed the bottom third of the truck, the registration should have said two tone Blue/Grey not Blue.

Again the officer had a valid reason to ticket the offender, but this shows his character.

I’ve lived and worked in northern states for a period of years. I’ve worked in minus degree weather and blizzards
I’ve known swamp wolff or a number of years.I would put him in with the best of them.

Wrong tree Kirk!!

Could you explain why you think this old veteran Ga game warden couldnt last min in your state?

PS. I dont know anything about snow. But tracks seem to be easy to follow.

This happened 25 years ago. No LEOs in SD had body cams then. The sheriff might have given a receipt, I can't remember. All I know is that $100 was transferred in the field from the guilty to the LAW.

Here's another example of trying to find a "gotcha" reason for citing someone. I had a friend of mine that grew up in Yankton County, SD. There's one of the main steam Missouri River dams and resovoirs in that county. My friend was a bit wild growing up and had run in with the CO several times where my friend was in the wrong so the CO had his eye on my friend and constantly was checking him out. One new year, my friend and his buds were ice fishing out on the reservoir and the CO came out and checked them for licenses. Fair enough, the reason we buy fishing and game licenses is to help maintain and even possibly improve the resources. I believe in licenses, everybody should have skin in the game. The CO checked "Jeff" the first time on Jan 1, but then again checked him twice more within that first week of January. Now, the CO knew Jeff was licensed to fish on Jan 1 but SD "law" says that angler (or hunter) needs to have said license on them while doing that activity--probably the original intent was that most first wildlife law contacts is to establish a person is licensed. But the "law" doesn't say that, it says it needs to be on a person while doing that activity. So, if Jeff would have forgotten his wallet one day and didn't have his license while ice fishing and Mr. CO stopped him, the CO would have cited him, even though that citation served no real purpose besides a "gotcha" fine.

Jeff drove an old mid-to-early '60s car at that point. The same CO stopped them on a gravel township road one time when the pheasant season was happening and I think either made them take out the back seat or they tried taking out the back seat to see if they had any game birds stuffed in there. I know the CO took of the top of the air cleaner on top of the engine to see if something was stashed in there. I would have busted a gut laughing at that one. First of all, even if a pheasant could have been crammed into the air cleaner, that old car would have died fairly shortly driving down the road because it would be dam hard to get any air for the engine!! I doubt even a partridge stuffed in there wouldn't have made the old engine sputter. Anyway, that was the mentality of that CO. I think the meetings between the CO and Jeff finally ended when one or the other moved out of that county...

You might last the first minute, it's the subsequent nine that are in question! But don't take it personally, no Game Warden could do it...

Does your DNR (or analogous) have a Commissioner, Deputy Commissioners, Executive staff? Do they (Executive Staff) suggest to you when and which laws you should act on or ignore??

How are you at cleaning subway cars??

This ^^^^ is what I was referring to when I asked about the difference between "DEC staff" and NY's ECOs. According to Redknot, an ECO is considered DEC staff and therefore must contact another ECO when circumstances require warrantless entry onto private property.
(This is what Camvasback posted last night but Redknot has refuted. Please explain if you're in the know.

To gather info about hiring procedures and officer retention, I recently conducted phone interviews with officers from more than 20 state's wildlife agencies, with NY being one of them. From what I was told NY ECOs ARE New York's GAME WARDENS.

PA used to have what I think were called "Field Citations". Basically it was a citation for a minor infraction that you would pay directly to the WCO. I got one in the 80's for riding an ATV on National Forest Land. Basically it amounted to a warning that you paid for. The WCO told me if he wanted to he could've confiscated the ATV and fined me pretty heavy, but since I stopped real quick, and didn't try to argue with him he gave me the "Field Citation".

I have a friend the used to be a deputy fish WCO. I watched him on multiple occasions give out "field citations". Mostly for people throwing cigarettes down.

Jack lighting, poaching, and other more "serious" violations always got you a fine and a court date.

Yes...on the Commissioner, Deputy Commish, and a governor-appointed board. They set the Dept's direction, sometimes its political, sometimes not so much. Here in Ga, GWs do a lot of things that are not related to wildlife or boating, or environmental enforcement. For example, we provided extra manpower at civil unrest incidents last year all over Ga. Our officers were injured in Atlanta during some of that. I was deployed to more than a half dozen cities during this but no violence encountered. The total number of hours that we have transported vaccines and med supplies in the past year is incredible. And now we are providing security at vaccine sites.

I would last at least 11 min in NY...guarantee ya!

Swamp, you did not answer the part about ignoring Environmental Conservation Laws and regulations...

Swamp, Are you allowed to enforce the traffic code?

Ii call BS registration tickets arent written based on color of vehicles anywhere thqt im aware of. Ill bet his plates didnt match his VIN.

Ive seen 2 deer under the hood lying on top of engine of a older model pickup truck. Wouldnt have suspected that if I didnt see blood dripping. Have watched a dove hunter go back to his truck and put a limit of doves in his hubcaps. One of my officer observed a driver at a traffic checkpoint drop a bag of meth thru the open space at the gear shift and onto the highway. He saw the bag fall from the vehicle's underside...just happened ro be at right distance and looking that way.

I could write a book about all this stuff over the years.

Yes, but we have policy that dicates when.

In Ga: 1) when the traffic violation is a public safety threat, 2) when the traffic violation is discovered while we are performing our assigned duties, such as a DUI driver on a night deer hunting stop, 3) when the traffic violation occurs on state owned or controlled property.

We do not have/use speed detection devices.

Please cite your source. I highly doubt any coyotes are being brought in by Ohio fish and game to thin out deer. Ohio makes a lot, and I mean a lot of money bringing out-of-state trophy hunters in to hunt their deer. They arent going to jeopardize their deer herd. I get the feeling youll believe anything you hear.

I think that truck driver was pulling his leg... That rumor has been going around Delaware also, the DNR brought in coyotes to control the deer population. Never happened, but doesn't stop that from being spread around.

LOL

My apologies. Ive been typing with my fat thumbs on my phone and trying to respond to all this. I missed that...

Here in Ga, there have been a handful of incidents where politics reared its ugly head. Our officers had issued citations and were questioned about them when they did nothing outside of policy or law.This causes some animosity among our guys, no doubt, but this doesnt occur enough in our agency to be of much concern. I tell my officers to do your job, by policy and the law. I'll handle the politics. I'm a field supervisor and I try to shield my guys from that nonsense. Have done a fair job of it for past 15 years of my 25 + year cateer.

Politics is always hanging in the shadows of EVERY LE agency. Top level management catches he$$ all the time trying to divert this.

You must have missed this Swamp...

Redknot is correct, sometime back in New York they went from game wardens to "Environmental conservation officers". Now, besides enforcing fish and game laws they also chase speeders on the Northway and look for phosphates in super markets. Even the forest rangers carry guns these days.
I can not justify breaking the law, even when there are some bad ones.New York has some bad trapping seasons brought about by a couple of arrogant, know it all biologists, but we must obey them until we can get them changed. If there were no game protectors the violators would run amuck.Most regs are there for good reason.

Did my post not show up? Its right above your's...

I respect your reply and thankyou for seeing the big pic.

Nearly every wildlife agency has undergone changes over the last decade. Many name changes and many having to take on other responsibilities to retain funding. It sux for the wildlife and the sportsman as there is less time dedicated to what we really care about. But all those agencies are at the mercy of a state budget office and legislature. Here in Ga DNR, we used to be called the Game & Fish Divison. Then it was changed to Wildlife Resources Division. Recently, LE was pulled out of that division and became the Law Emforcement Division of DNR.

There are several state wildlife agencies that are struggling to maintain their seat at the table.

Sorry Swamp, Yes I see your response above mine now...Yes, I guess you could make it eleven minutes, and nice to know you're are shielding your officers from the nonsense!!!

"A rose by any other name . . ." In other words, it's still a Rose no matter what name it's called. :-)

Thank you, Sir! Have a great day.

I was responding to your last post but it got deleted...wouldnt let me quote it.

In Ga, we dont have any of the violation codes you listed exxept for shooting from a public road. But I have issued warnings and citations for that one, many times.....depended on the situations and how it went down.

I should be up to 15 min now, eh?

At the end of the day the ECO gave Joe 2 tickets when he could have given him 6. Joe needs to stop playing the victim card and comply with the trapping regs as written.

50 years ago many hiking trails looked like cow paths in the Adirondacks.. Parking at a trailhead and using those trails is not the way I would choose to access trapping ground if I wanted to keep my trapping privileges in a blue state. It's really not a good idea in any state.

Quote

"A rose by any other name . . ." In other words, it's still a Rose no matter what name it's called. :-)

Well yes and no SJA, as Swamp alludes to, the changing of names is often attached to the funding source...What duties are allowed can be tied to that funding source. For instance, if NYS DEC (or other DNR) chose to purchase a pickup truck with certain Federal funding that funding would dictate how that truck could be used...It can get pretty complicated...

I had just moved back to Maine and still had Alaska plates on my truck. I was bowhunting deer, making a stalk on a doe on the edge of a field toward dark. The stalk was unsuccessful and as I was making my way back to my truck the ground in front of me erupted. A warden had being eyeing me the entire time and was hiding under his green coat right in the field. I all but stepped on him. After a short discussion he informed me he could cite me for twilight hunting. I explained to him how it was legal to hunt in Alaska any time, day or night, so long as artificial light wasn't involved and that was still fresh in my mind. Having the nonresident license and my explanation got me off the hook. He told me to read the regs and we parted company.

Fast forward a month. I'm bowhunting again. I've been bowhunting the entire month of October and now it's the last Saturday of the month. The last Saturday of the month is residents only day of firearms season. My archery license was good for October and November deer hunting but not for that one Saturday. I came out of the woods just after dark and there is the same warden waiting on me at my truck. He asks me to walk him back to my stand which I agree to do. We get the stand and he comments that it looks like a great spot and we head back to the road. Once we're back at the truck he informs me he can cite me for twilight hunting or hunting as a nonresident on residents only day hunting. Which would I prefer? Anyone who bow hunts with fiber optic sights knows they become useless in the woods well before legal shooting light ends. Usually by about ten minutes. I protested that and he said it shouldn't have taken me that long to get back to the road.

He felt compelled to give me ticket having already let me off the hook once. He did cite me though I don't recall which violation we picked. I didn't have any hard feelings toward him and as we parted he once again told me to read the regs.

^^^^yep

Not sure if you understood what I said? The duties may change + / -, but if your a GW, ECO, DCN, DNR, etc. your still in the Natural Resources Field of LE.

We have an old boy up here who trapped for a living in the 50-60's and a big portion of his income in the years after that was ADC work. Now our township population is small and everyone knows everyone. This fellow was never pinched with anything and I never saw him break the law but he would tell a whopper of a story, with the best twinkle in his eye. One of those fellows that made you wonder. Well a new warden got assigned to the area and heard the story's about the local trapper. Just doing his job he started following the old fellow around when he was out trapping, just keeping an eye on things, just doing his job. The old fellow did not mind too much deer season was over, winter was settling in and who knows might have needed help getting his truck pulled out. Well this went on all winter and into late summer, the old trapper would be setting a trap and look across the hills and there would be the warden just checking things out. A nod and a smile off they would go!!

Well come fall, the old trappers getting a little perturbed that the warden is still following him around. The trapper had been working on a beaver job for a farmer in the area, the beavers had backed up a good amount of water in a upper field and the plan called for them to tear out the dam that afternoon. To this day that old trapper swears he did not know the warden was in the lower field when he ripped out the dam but he says it with such a twinkle in his eye you cannot help but laugh. That game warden swears up and down that there was not a law the old trapper did not break and knew exactly where he was when that beaver dam let go and swept him back to the road bed.

Two good men and you'll find them both in the legion having a drink some Saturdays. The old trapper usually gets there first followed by the Warden, as always.

More "gotcha" bull****! Explain how ANY of that discussion helped maintain or increase the resource?? The "gotcha" things in the above story are so statistically insignificant that there is no impact on the resource. They make wildlife and fisheries students master calculus for a BS degree and then promptly forget how to use such math when they become wildlife cops. Not really their fault because almost all of politicians and bureaucrats who come up with the "law" couldn't do statistical formulas to save their souls, let alone figure out what things truly are important to enforce that make a difference in the resource and those regs are just stupid bs that may occasionally happen but have no real impact in the overall situation. "Follow the science"!! Yeah, right...

Swampy,are you allowed to surf the trapping forums while at work?
You know,like surveillance,lol.

Absolutely.

Catchin' poachers is never-ending work and includes many facets.

Facebook has been the downfall of many bragging poachers. But, not by me as I dont have a FB account.

Joe, i struggled with this as it is an emotional subject for discussion by all the posts.

The bottom line is two violations tickets, One for untagged traps. which you admit to in you write up. you got one ticket instead of 4 tickets. Thorpe recommended an additional tag above the ice on his beaver traps so the CO would not pull up his set., I also know COs do not like unfolding trap tags that are wrapped around the chain, food for thought.

The other is for a baited body griper, which is again true. My opinion is you got off easy. A martens head would fit in that trap. Also if you had caught a marten in you body gripper that would have been a real big issue.

You received a 100 dollar fine, similar to a speeding ticket. The judge defaulted to the CO as he probably does not see many case like this.

The CO in my opinion let you off. as you could have got tickets for the other 3 untagged traps.

I think the COs biggest concern was you trapping in areas (trail heads and trails) popular with people that do not understand trapping and he would prefer that tourists not get involved in your activities. You were following the law in this case but if you had caught a dog in an un tagged trap there would have been a bigger issue or if you had set closer to the trail which would have been another violation..


I have talked to alot of COs in my over 50 years of trapping in 4 states, They all seemed very reasonable to me. They are doing a job, are professionally trained and avoid gray areas as much as possible. They have families and lives just as we all do.

You were in the military and know the UCMJ, NYS trapping laws are pretty simple compaired to the UCMJ and alot easier to understand that the trapping regs 40 years ago.

So reduce it down to what it was, a reasonable warning with a small fine, tag all ur taps and do not set baited body grippers when not in accordance with the rule book.. You may want to consider meeting with the CO and talking it out. They are not bad people. I have been to IRAQ I know what bad people are

NYS regs are not that bad.

Stay safe and move forward.

Although I did not read all the responses I have one concern on tagging traps. I along with another local trapper had beaver permits for the same state property. The other trapper slept in the first morning as I set my kine. The next day he was waiting on me complaining I caught them all in one night. He informed me he had called the W.O. and then left the scene. After checking my traps (2 fifty pounders back packed a 1/4 mile) I was met by the officer at my truck. He mention that he looked my traps over that were in my truck and noticed they were all tagged. I agreed with that and asked why he was only checking e for that alone.
He informed me the other trapper complained I was trapping with untagged traps. At that point the officer said he had no reason to go look at my set traps as there was over a 100 foot traps all with tags in plain sight.
We shook and and departed ways. The next day at the same stop I inspected all 3 traps I had set there. All my tags had been removed.
If the officer had wanted to go check my traps that morning I possibly could have been screwed.

Ps. I will never forget the dirty deal that sob tried to pull on me.
Now every trap has my ID stamped into the frame or trigger.

When stopped by a GW you should think of one thing... what would a hood rat do? He wouldn’t talk, ain’t seen nothing, don’t know nothing and will ask ‘ Am i free to go because if not I want an attorney present’.

I concur and thank you for your service...

We had a CO that complained when I called him at 9PM as he had kids. I believe went back to being a cop.

Oh no! The possum police!

Nice.

He didn't stick around long.
I got checked by the other Game Warden trapping, (he was riding along) the one you mention made me really nervous, he wouldn't step out more than halfway behind the passenger door. I made it very clear that I had no weapon on me as I had to remove my waders for my license. The other warden checked it and asked to see my tags. We walked down the ditch and I was gonna pull my set up and he said good enough, have a nice day.

Pretty typical of 90% of the possum cops Ive encountered around the country in the last several years. Years ago I never had a bad encounter with one.

... the game warden saved my life.... the alligator saved my money lol

I haven't waded through all this yet but will eventually. We have a warden in NE that used to be the best poacher in the state, now he's the best warden in the state.. He knows exactly how a game violater works and he won't stop until he finds a reason to write a ticket. In NE I've heard a warden has more authority than a State Trooper, which I can see. Maybe all states.

Don’t listen to him. Hunting, fishing, and trapping is horrible. And all our GW’s are mean, if you see them. Killed my personal best Eastern on a local WMA and rode for an hour trying to find someone to take a pic of me and my turkey! Never saw another soul!!

Just read about a guy in Colorado poached 12 trophy deer this year, a big horn sheep and 2 turkey and got caught. He got fined $4800 bucks 3 months in jail and lost hunting rights. Wonder how many he poached over the years and never got caught.

You’re ruining your “11” point rep posting bucks like that!

Dang Wilbur!

You are actually friends with them TX GWs. Im impressed!

Btw,

Im out on this thread. Ive helped divert the OP's original post into a lengthy game warden discussion. Ive typed a short book about game wardens on this thread. But, I did learn that Wilbur is a TX GW supporter. Go Wilbur!

Sorry Joe.

Yessir....they tote me around with them just in case things get real western and they need somebody to range out past ten feet from the truck

... possum hostage situations and such

Don’t leave us Swamp... I’ve put a lot effort into this lol

Not leaving Tman.....just leaving this thread.


Peace out!

So up here you can be cited up to a year past the encounter, does this apply down south ?

otherwise there is not enough carbon in the Tenn hills for the tickets that Joe is going to get cited on.

....guess this thread just got eleven feet from the truck lol

... you’re alright Mr. Swamp lol and I apologize for my nonsense

Surely they are gonna put a star on yer chest and deputize you a gopher. Go further than 10 ft from the truck and slap tame that gator, slap tame that meth head etc

Sucks that Swamp Wolf doesn't want to play anymore I been workin an I just got in dangit

I'll play...just not on Joe's thread. Ive ruined it already...lol

Joe hasn't made a post since July of 2019.
He then drops in here and make longwinded post and works everyone into a tither and then he's Gone.

Good one Joe. lol

I read the first 6 pages yesterday...it should have run its course by now. I will add though, that the gw in question overstepped his bounds a bit (ethically, not legally), but that's what they do (they'll say it's their job). I'm not anti gw, I've gotten along with mine fine, and I teach my kids to do the "right" thing. Use your head, get permission, read the laws and abide, it's really that simple...God bless! P.s. if you don't want your traps stolen (and used at a playground), get permission on private land. Best regards!

Obviously checking the traps in the back of the truck for tags doesn't mean the ones in the ground are going to be tagged. Joe got caught being deceptive. I wonder why the judge didn't throw the charges out when Joe pointed out that the ECO had broken the law.

Next time I get pulled over for speeding I'm going to tell the Trooper he would have never caught up with me if he hadn't broken the speed limit himself. Lol

Well sure man- you tried to bring common sense to the table in 2021. Throw that stuff out the window- it means nothing this year

I had to quit reading halfway or 3/4 through. You admitted to breaking a couple laws and are mad at the DEC officer? No, maybe an Ouell trap can't kill an ermine or whatever but if the laws clearly state you can't set them ar a certain time, then you can't. Also, the laws you posted in the first pics apply to other sportsman, not DEC officers. If you look up the laws I'm certain you'll find they're legally entitled to disturbing your traps to check for the ID tags required by law which you didn't have anyway.

You broke the laws, you're an idiot for being this mad. Go join BLM and whine about problems you caused in Hope's everyone else will fix it for you.

He isn't friends with them. If you look closely he has him by the scruff of the neck like a kitten that got caught trying to sneak away from momma.

You didn't get a fine out of it did you?
I would have gave you one for no trap tags
Are image is our future.
Just food for thought

And I didn't bother to read any replys because you admitted to breaking the law as it is written

Them ol boys are terrified of Savell, always worryin one of their daughters will hear he can wink

I have trapped in 12 states. As an out-of-state trapper you have to be extra careful to follow the laws. The worst CO's I have encountered are in New York. They go out of their way to search for some kind of violation. One New York CO in particular would put on the gut stained gloves he used to handle roadkilled deer and proceed to check every trap in my truck for tags, especially doing extra handling of the dyed, waxed clean ones.

Next time pull your traps and make a punji pit for him instead.

.... now I understand why they don’t range out over 10’ from the truck around here lol

Good and bad in all walks of life.I hunt, trap and fish,,and also have my Animal Nuisance Controll license through the NYDEC,and run a business,so I probly deal with the "FISH COPS" more than the average sportsman.Most seem straight shooters but YES,,we have some real arsses that go out of their way to be real arsses.I usualy just tell them Savell is my brother from another mother.

Wasnt gonna respond anymore on this particular thread, but I couldnt help myself^^^^

M.S. Pickens is telling you to turn that trap tagging violation into an aggravated assault charge.

Dam sad comment!!!

But the good news is Swamp Wolf came back!

Savell- are you up for any more nonsense or is it my turn to clock in?

Anyone that would set a punji pit for any reason would have more to worry about than an aggravated assault charge.

Ok, Swamp Wolf, probably not a punji pit but are trappers just supposed to stand there and take it when a CO goes out of his or her way to contaminate scent free traps...?

If a PETA would do that, I think I could get trapper harassment filed on them in SD. What if a CO decides he wants to take a leak 10 feet from a set, what stops that action besides possibly a trapper filing "public indecency" complaint? I see no difference in a wildlife cop purposely handling scent treated traps with dirty scent heavy gloves and a person pi**ing on a set trap area. Both are done willfully. If the dirty glove thing wasn't willful, then that person shouldn't have the job. Shouldn't have the job in either way...

... I’m out... got hands talking about using Vietcong tactics and what not lol... I might shoot a tire out to square up a fine... but I draw the line at spiked pits and and bamboo shoots up fingernails and what have you lol

Are you really wanting to beat this dead horse more after all Ive posted on this thread. Either you didnt read the entire thread or your reading comprehension is poor.

Peace out! Im really outta this thread this time. Just DAM!

This ^^^^

One of the biggest takeaways from this is actually not about the CO, it’s about the playground statement. Anyone that isn’t aware just how low people will go to try to harm someone’s reputation needs to reread the part about stolen 330s being set on a playground. Willing to seriously injure children just to try to make people hate a trapper. That is appalling behavior and makes me want to report my own traps being stolen, again.


You can not negotiate with someone that’s willing to use or harm set booby traps for children to accomplish their goals, whatever that may be. That’s a person that’s psychotic, dangerous, and should be charged as a Terrorist. Animal “rights” people have gotten away with too much for too long, and it’s obvious that outdoorsmen aren’t the only ones in harms way when it comes to these people.



As for the tagging of traps, it sounds like a solution was given when they offered to allow the option of a document number. As NWCOs in Louisiana, we use a similar number.

Trying to negotiate with people willing to harm children ?? Are you referring to the Teachers Union ?
There I killed this thread.

Almost all my hunt trap life has been in Alaska with about half that off the road system. Haven't had a lot of contact with LEOs. Couple times an officer bugged us wrongly because he hadn't read his emails and didn't have current information.
My opinion is the enforcement should see hunters and trappers as assistants in enforcing Regs. In the OPs case, maybe this CO would have been better off to give a warning, clarify his mistakes, and then ask for assistance if the OP ever sees any serious violations. It's the serious violators that are the problem and likely not to be converted to honest participants.
Following, or concentrating on one individual doesn't help an officer do his job.

Karma will ride with the harassment,. move on
Probably divorced and his kids hate him

Anyone unfamiliar with the Ouell, it is very compact and a powerful trap. It may be a good option for marten? Just paint for camouflage and add you trap tag!

I once got an illegible trap tag violation from a NYSDEC officer ,after trespassers put a fox I caught in a dog crate ,brought it to the Local Wildlife Rehabers to be released later on .Officer located me from the tag address ,but still gave me the ticket .The trespassers were warned ,and fox released .I got off on the ticket in court .What a joke .They surely do go above and beyond to try and catch you slipping .

If the tag was not legible,,how did he find your address.Hahahaaa what an idiot he must be.

Hence how I got off on the ticket lol.Farmer even told the officer he didn’t want the dog walkers on his property .I will say there are a few good guys as well .My wife’s old Boyfriend is a DEC officer and has alwys been anti trapping .