Christians: Question

Are we to judge? I say yes, just not to condemnation. The church seems to preach judge not, lest ye be judged. From my study I only see that as half right because Jesus tells us how to judge. Am I wrong?

Jesus not only tells us how to but shows us how to.

The Bible tells us not to speak evil of dignitaries and I struggle mightily with that. Pelosi, Waters and AOC among others take me to my limit daily.

Discernment vs sitting in judgement.

Yes that is very much a struggle with me also. Lol.

That's how I see it too. You're Southern Baptist warrior and maybe it's peculiar to this denomination or maybe just my church. You mention judgement(or discernment) someone always blurts out Judge not , lest ye be judged.

I am not a wise Christian but in Church teaching judge means to assume the disposition of a soul. So, we should not assume someone is (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) because that is for Christ to judge. Certainly we can say, when appropriate, that someone has sinned. Admonishing the sinner is actually one of the acts of mercy in the Catholic Church. We aren't doing favors when we don't tell people they are sinning. But this needs to be done with the most love and charity. Think of teaching a child what is right and wrong.

I have always understood that verse to mean that you will be judged by the same standard that you judge others by... In other words be prepared to live up to your own standards and not be hypocritical.

Mike

^^ This ^^

I do not believe we have the "authority" to judge our fellow man.

Even labeling or calling others names, like "fool" for example, puts us on shaky ground, IMO.

I wouldn't consider these morons dignitaries.

I am under the impression that we are to judge/hold other Christians (or people who say they are) accountable. I get that from 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. I don’t believe we are to judge people who don’t know Jesus. Basically rebuking those who know better

I found a church that fits me. A few years ago, as our pastor read the Holy Bible's description of a fool someone kept flashing pics with quotes captioned of a big eared loose lipped dignitary possibly from Kenya.

Jay, he also helps this man a lot as he reminds me that all the time I spend in judgment of others is less time I spend in action makin a real difference.

Titus 1:10-15

Leviticus 19:15 KJV: Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

He who is without sin cast the first stone is another example of what I hear. In this story I don't believe Jesus was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for judging her to be a sinner since Jesus tells her to go and sin no more. It's the judging to condemnation (death) that he took issue with. If your going to judge to condemnation expect the same.
I sometimes wonder if my church does this to not step on toes. Kind of like you can find plenty of churches that will preach John 3:16 but finding those that preach John 3:18 is becoming a rarity.

1Cor. 6:2 1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!…

I think John 8: 1-11 provides a lot of insight. ( Woman caught in adultery )




53Then each of them went home, 81while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, 4they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ 6They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ 8And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground.* 9When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11She said, ‘No one, sir.’* And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’]]*

I've been looking for wiggle room on that one.

The Bible has hundreds of chapters and versus dedicated to evil and poor leaders, judges and officials so what is new? We are all sinners, we just have to be accepting and humble enough to not believe the sins of others are worse then mine are.

Bryce

I remember vividly when the Lord first worked in my heart and showed me what I was, I would have gladly traded places with any human being on the planet. It is only through God's mercy that we are not consumed.

As a Christian you had better judge things every day in my op[inion. As was said though just do not judge another in condemnation or in a way you are not willing to be judged by. LLL

I consider myself a Christian.
I don't always follow the "rules". And I know that!.
Every SINGLE one of us judges others. We may be born equal but as we grow, we ALL grow into what we have heard/seen/taught.

I have "tried" reading the book Bible a few times but could not comprehend the verbiage.
I try now to just be a good/caring fella and let God sort it out in the end.

... judge not ... so you can be taken advantage of lol... and then turn the other cheek

... a lot of weak and self destructive advice in the n.t. and the o.t. doesn’t apply unless you wear a funny looking round hat on the top of your head

The Bible talks about righteous anger and I think it is OK to hate evil. It's also OK to judge from the point of view of differentiating good from evil, but judging in that sense is different from condemning, which we are not to do.

It is not for us to judge or condemn those who we know to be evil as they will face that someday from the one who is to judge.

Many interesting exegetical suggestions for you here JS.

I'm not sure if you're asking about Matthew 7? That verse is not about "judge not, lest ye be judge," which is rugged exegesis that some toss about, without proper context of that Gospel Book & passage.
Remember the Book of Matthew is the recording of the Gospel about the Kingdom of God being at hand in the Person of Jesus the Christ. In that, is a principle of righteous judgement, not of men, but from God. The correct balance if Matt 6:33 - this verse sets up what comes next.

There were no grammatical markings in the Koine Greek original text, so toss out the header titles, periods, commas, and so forth, and what you have strongly suggests that in Matt 6:33 - 7:6 Jesus would have His disciples realize they must deal with our own junk in our own trunk first, (this passage isn't talking about discernment). It's straight from Deut 1:17, 10:17 & 24:17.

Blessings,
Mark

Nice job Flint Lock.
You're correct - righteous anger versus evil is biblical. In fact, standing aside allowing evil to prevail is absolutely against our faith.
But the darkness tosses out all sorts of catchy secular phrases. You hear them all the time;

1. Don't judge others or you'll be judged.
2. Separation of church and state is the law of the land
3. You and your God don't tell me what to do.

All these are to keep the Light which is the life of man at bay.
It doesn't prevail.

Blessings!
Mark

This is so true

We just need to keep praying Matthew 6:

.... Your Kingdom come, Your will be done. On earth as it is in Heaven.

When that happens, all will be just fine.

Blessings,
Mark

Love the person, hate the sin

Romans 12:19 "...vengeance is mine.... saith the Lord"

I often want to be an instrument of God!!!

Avoid evil and the appearance of evil. I feel we need to judge between good and evil, even among people but that doesn't allow me to pass judgement on anyone. Mike

For as you judge, so shall you be judged.

As Solomen judged, you should pray for wisdom, once you have wisdom (takes a life time) then you may have the ability to judge (what is judgement, but praying for GODs will: then vengence is mine saith the Lord), understanding that the Lord GOD's will is perfect: you will be judging yourself every time you judge your fellow man, every mite you measure will be measured against you. As they say be careful what you wish for. Wisdom and knowledge followed by action are all accountable. Conscience allows you to determine right from wrong, understanding that what is mans law today may not be law tomorrow, but GOD's Law is the 10 Commandments. adding a little Luke 10:27. So now you know why most of the old testament Prophets were hermits and recluse, avoiding society. They walked away from evil. So secular law and society is not GOD's Law.

So you have an issue, make a judgement, put it before GOD, give it to GODS will, he determines the punishment (GODs will). end of cycle.
You live with it, unless you take it into your own hands.

We all may have a little Cain (Cannanite) in us.

I was born a sinner like all. I have many faults, one of them being judgemental. God forgives a multitude of sins if you believe.
Mark, you always test my vocabulary. Thank you.
Had three things to look up in this post. Lol

Mark, Matthew 7, "judging a tree by it's fruit" is what I'm referring to when it pertains to Christians judging.
Thanks to everyone for all the input.

Thanks for the thread, J.

As a Christian, I struggle almost daily with issues that I don't understand the workings. Luckily, we have an instruction manual to guide us.
I'm constantly knocking. I'm reminded of, give Cesar what's due to Cesar and give to God what's due to God.

I firmly believe as a Christian we are to judge and allow ourselves to be judged by the same measure. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. I judge everyday if I want to surround myself with certain individuals or stay away from others. I try to never condemn and walk humbly before the Lord. We are to love each other enough and point all people to Gods word. God will reveal truth to people if we point them to God. As a Christian, we should be prepared to be judged. We all will stand and be judged - are you ready?

Wicks trimmed and lamp is full.
Speaking of judgement, who is knowledgeable on the subject of the Bema seat?

It is where we will actually get our rewards. The many or few crowns. It is said that your works on earth play out here. I know it is a three staged platform like the Olympics from what I have read where Christ will give out the Crowns. It is not where we will be judged. That will happen earlier. LLL

Remember JS,
Jesus' primary audience for Matthew 5-7 is believers. Of course He's teaching His Disciples also (Mt 5:1).
We all have a nature to denigrate others junk rather than our own.

Chapter 7, the Greek word krino, a verb meaning "to pass judgement" is used twice in the first 5 words of verse 1 (I can't show Greek on Tman).
The first krino is called an imperative (mood) so it's a command and it's in what's called an active voice... an action done by someone on themselves.
The second krino is a subjunctive (mood = might happen) and it's in a passive voice.... an action done by someone else to a person.

All of this to say, Greek is helpful in that that passage DOES NOT READ, don't judge others.
It reads.... pass judgement on yourself as you are going to be judged by another (guess who ).
See the difference?
This passage is NOT talking about discernment and judgement of others.

Of course darkness uses phrases like this, as the great deceiver, to twist the logos and tickle ears.
Remember logos twisted by Satan as the serpent in the beginning; "You surely will not die!"

Blessings,
Mark

Paul said this about it.....According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it . . . Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and fire will try each one's work, of what sort it is (1 Corinthians 3:10,12,13).

I always thought the Bema was considered as the judgement seat of Christ for believers. What judgement are you referring to LLL that occurs before the Bema occurs?

The Apostle Paul's letters, often written from a prison, are the reason us Gentiles even type these words.

Look up his Roman prison pics online if you'd like to see what real suffering for the Gospel looks like.
Incredible persecution and incredible Apostolic strength by the Holy Spirit through it all.
The man's back must have been a mess of scars.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark, as the Marxist take power we may have the very pleasure of experiencing such things.

Two years in a dungeon (it's really not posh enough to be called a prison) with the only water you have seeping in on rocks to a rock gouge in the floor.
And for a while, there were 47 other prisoners at one time in this hole in the Mamertine prison in Rome.
Peter and Paul baptized people in the cup of water in this dungeon.

Oh, and they drop you down in through the hole on the top of the cell.
There were no lights.

The Judgement of whether you are to be in heaven or (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) will have occurred at this point. The rapture is over which is the resurrection for believers. The Bema seat or Judgement seat is the place where Christ will judge you for the works you have done since you excepted salvation as a mortal man. Some will have many crowns while others will have few. It is actually the place where your deeds will have merit and is not based on the Grace and belief that got you into heaven. LLL

It's important to note Scripture tells us that the blessed hope of the gospel is not to end up in heaven, but rather as embodied (resurrected) upon the New Earth. (Rev. 21).
The Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection while others (some Pharisees & others) believed resurrection had already happened in the time of Paul.

We still have both these groups among us today.

Oh and Revelation 20:11-15 helps understated all will stand embodied for judgement (believers and unbelievers) Everybody gets a body.

Blessings,
Mark

The church has never been tested in this country. We've had times of revival and awakenings but never any serious persecution. That may be about to change.

I have wise people teaching that believe exactly that Posco.

Well worth the watch.

I doubt any literal baptism took place in the prison. The apostles understood that baptism was by full immersion in water not a a sprinkling or a splash of water like many do today.

^^^ Where does Scripture direct us to a mandate of only full immersion?

Mark 1:9, 10: “Jesus . . . was baptized in the Jordan [River] by John. And immediately on coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being parted.”

Acts 8:38: “They both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” They both “went down into the water.” Afterward they came “up out of the water.”

These instances imply, not a small ankle-deep pool, but a large body of water into and out of which they would have to walk. Further, the fact that baptism was also used to symbolize a burial indicates complete submersion. Ro 6:4-6: Col 2:12.

Ohhh, I was going to reply, but then I saw that Mark was the one that posed the question.

Hopefully, I'm smarter than the yotes he traps, because me thinks he set a trap in cleverly concealed bed..... I await his reply.

(If I'm right, kudos for getting us to break old habits and mindsets, and to think outside of the box when necessary).

Since baptism is not salvific, what you quote comes from the narrative (story). Where is the imperative command to do this was my question? I'm not aware there is any, but perhaps you see something in the text?

To take what happens in the biblical story to those who went before us, is not an imperative. It's just blessed story for us to better know the character of God.

Blessings,
Mark

The Bible says that baptism is an important step to gaining salvation. 1 Pet. 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We are passed from death unto life the moment we believe, not the moment we're baptized.

While I also agree with immersion, I expect one could be baptized with dirt if that were the only thing available. I see baptism as the first act of obedience.

OK, I'll cautiously throw my understanding out there:

"Baptize" is a transliteration- a Greek word "made" English.
From the Greek:

βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Uses of this word in other Greek context, included making of pickles ("submerging" them in a pickling substance, not merely sprinkling or rinsing), and also in dyeing cloth (same idea). The word used indicates a full submersion.

New Testament baptism, shows identity with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection to new life. It is an outward expression of an inward change.

My understanding goes back to the Jewish practice of the "mikvah", more precisely the "tevilah"- the ritualistic cleansing of the whole flesh, prior to a sanctified act taking place (the priest on the day of Yom Kippur), or the act of an individual showing a change from one aspect of life to another (marriage ceremony, entering the temple, etc).

Jewish rabbis would pay boys to watch as they lowered themselves into the mikvah pool to ensure that their head was completely covered by the water. It was... well, an "immersive" experience, a total commitment.

John the Baptizer was baptizing individuals prior to the crucifixion, calling upon people to "repent" from their ways. The "tevilah", aka the baptism, showed an outward manifestion of an inward repentance, Change from trusting in keeping the law, or doing good works, or believing in self, to the way of the Messiah.

When Jesus told the 10 lepers to bath in the river, it is my understanding, he told them to go practice a "tevilah", using the river as their "mikvah" to "baptize" themselves. A change from leprousy, to cleanliness, and then to show themselves to the priest.

Here is where I thought the 'trap" might be. I deal with some individuals who are 100% against death bed confessions and salvation. I guess to them, it doesn't seem fair that someone was able to live a life contrary to God, and then at the last minute, on the last breath, make it into heaven. My counter is always the thief on the cross, and the fact that God is longsuffering and patient towards us, not willing that any should perish, and that as long as man has breath, God extends grace.

Same mentality follows with baptism. "Unless they can be dunked, it don't count". Well, what about the man on the death bed, embracing the gift and wanting to be obedience in baptism? Isn't there allowance for "the best we got" and it's the intent that matters? Not that we are going to make it the practice, but when the exception is evident, mercy is allowed.

My thoughts as well. I think dignitaries have good intentions generally.

I do most of my judging when driving in heavy traffic.

I,m about the same. I did try reading the Bible but just have trouble understanding. Just try to be the best I can. I thought the 10 commands should be good enough.

If you believe in prayer, pray before you read. The 10 commandments is a good start, but Jesus is the way. I suggest spending your reading time in the New Testament. Romans is a good one to spend time in.

What if we have made the Bible about us? Prescriptive at about every turn when in fact most of it was meant to be descriptive.
What if (I hold this view) the Bible is not a list of do's and don'ts but rather about God?
God's story of creation, human Fall, and God's Redemptive plan to restore it all to newness in the end.

Skanee3, try this. Read the Bible using only observation. Just READ God's story. Like you read any book, beginning to end. Figure out the plot, characters, and story line.
Do we stop during the reading of the Green Eggs & Ham book every sentence and "apply" it? No. We read Sam I am, and about Whoville, and such, from front to back.
Or if my wife is watching a movie and I walk in the room in the middle of it and start telling her what the movie is about... she'll tell me that I have no idea what I'm talking about because I missed most of the story plot and what the different characters have been doing to lead up to this point. She'd be spot on correct. I'd have no accuracy about any of it. I'd have opinion based on my opinion is all.

There are 3 parts of Bible "hermeneutics" as they're called: observation (reading), interpretation (what's it mean?), and application (how should I implement this?).
The American Churches are typically 90% application and while application is fine, that can steer the Bible to be about humans rather than about God. God didn't send a users manual for humans so don't read the Bible that way.

How many times have I heard someone say, "I don't read the Old Testament." Well then you miss 2/3rds of the Book and certainly a key passage about God's character (Exod. 34:6-7) and you will not understand the plot of God's Redemptive Story. So you'll interpret how you want. And most do.

What if God wanted to Inspire human writers to record what God wanted His Image Bearers (humans - made in His Image) to know about Himself >>>>> writing a book to describe God's characteristics and attributes would be "revealing." After all, us humans can only know God by what he reveals. So far that is: Creation & Jesus, His Son, & Scripture (Old and New).

We realize we read any book that has a narrative plot from page 1 until the end, true? We watch any movie from the opening scene until the end, right?
Why do we turn to chapter and verse (manmade grammatical inclusions) with the best selling narrative book of all ages? Well, oftentimes, humans figure they will craft the story of God in their image and not the other way around. Bottom line, you'll never get the biblical plot if you don't read it... and if you don't know the plot >>>>>> then you can "interpret" and "application" any way you think best.
And that's how too many teachers of the Bible teach.
It's called all over the board.

Oh and I'm Protestant, so Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Baptism holds no salvific purpose for me because Jesus is the Christ Messiah. Not water.
And of course, I'm not Inspired. The Bible is.
My view would be the majority Protestant faith view with a slight variance amongst the Lutherans. Water can be a dunk or droplets depending on the person being baptized situation. In Hospice, we baptism bedside will full assurance the receivers heart is wide open. Most hold that the intent is the key, not the amount of H2O.
And Paul and Peter did baptize from the cup of water in Mamertine Prison. Good enough for the Apostle that brought saving Grace to the Gentiles and was beheaded for it.... good enough for us.
I will absolutely thank Paul for persevering for us sinners when I see him "in the morning."

Good discussion. Appreciate the posts!


Blessings,
Mark

Mark's comment on baptizing reminds me a of an old song. I have the whole song but don't have it on this computer. The chorus goes ; You can be baptized in every water hole, that will never ever save your soul.
You can shake and shake the preachers hand, that will never take you to the promised land.
It takes a change of heart, a change of mind, get ready brother leave this world behind.
So if you wanna go up, then you gotta go down, Brother and pray, pray, pray !

If you follow the examples in the Bible, immersion is the "proper" way to baptize. As for baptism not being necessary for salvation I would agree.

X2 but I would replace the 2nd 'the" with "a."
Mark 1:8 describes the New Covenant cleansing in miraculous terms; “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Regarding judging one another. The Bible makes it very clear that we are not to judge one another's heart. I cannot discern the sincerity of another's heart when it comes to salvation or their dedication. That is between them and the Lord. However, we are able to judge another's actions and confront them as needed (see Matthew 18:15-17 for instance.) The idea of "Nobody can judge me but God" is simply another way of saying "Let me sin in peace."

If I might wade into this post lightly silky, because reading context online is tricky. You might be pointing out key differences whereby the Western Church split into the Roman Catholic and Protestant faiths 500 years ago.

I'd argue, as traditional Protestants, (and some RC's also) that 1 Peter 3:21 must be taken into context. Peter's letter is written to the Jews who have been scattered far and wide away from their traditional homeland in Israel by great empires in what's called the Diaspora, who would have held to the Mosaic Law. Paul is telling them, as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, in very clear terms, that they are not saved by the Law, but rather through Jesus Christ. 1:1-9 is right to the point... with 1:9 wrapping Peter's first 8 verses in Chapter 1 with a summary statement!

This entire book is wonderfully written to help the scattered Jews understand the revealed New Covenant in Jesus the Messiah, and so the context of 1 Peter 3:21 is that as believers, the Jews are immersed (baptizmo) into salvation through the blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 is literally written in Koine Greek: Baptizontez autous eis to onama = Baptism their in the name = Baptize in their name (in English). It's not salvific, as faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior accomplishes all. This would have been incredibly hard for a 1st century Jews to fathom as their heritage was the Old Covenant (if they even followed the Law of Moses: most did not), so Peter preaches the Gospel with no ifs, ands, or buts.

So, this passage, like many others (baptizo is found 112 times in the NT) is not a "literal" water dunk for salvation purposes. At least not in the orthodox Church. If it was, people swimming at the beach every afternoon would come up cleansed and made pure. I know plenty of people who swim all the time and they're not saved. Baptism in the 1st century was a dedication and professing of one's heart to Jesus Christ. It's still that same liturgy of ritual today.

The 1st Book of the Gospels, written of course by a Jew, is the 1st Book by design = it records the ministry of the greater Adam, and John, the baptizer, announcing to; "Make ready the way of the Lord. Make His paths straight." (Matt. 3:3). Matthew records the Kingdom of God announcement. It's here. The Fullness of Time. It's the 1st book of the NT because it announces the New Covenant plot in God's story.

After all, reading the word baptizo as a command for salvation would make John the baptizer's words in Matthew 3:11 trickier... "He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Fire? I don't think we torch believers in faith. Of course it means judgment. Baptism by faith through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit = salvation. Fire = Judgment by those same Persons for those who are not saved.

Anyway, like I always say, my thoughts are not inspired. The Bible is.
But all must be read, not as a verse, but as part of God's entire story.
Context in a story isn't just important. It's crucial!

Blessings brother!
Mark

I had a grandpa that it was questionable if he ever was saved and certainly never joined a church. Wonder if I could stand in for the baptism for the dead and get his name on the church books ? That tree may have already fell ? But surely if God is a loving God, wouldn't He compromise with man and have no consistency ? After all He changed His mind once and sent the Second Adam, but maybe He didn't change things up or He would not have given the signal with the animal skin in the Garden.

Yes I make judgements every day on the choices I make, some more important than others. What pants I wear, what I eat, where I go. But I change and God does not. Not yesterday, today or forever !

That's good advice.


There is truth in that.