property-surveying-legal questions - UPDATE

Seems there are folks from every walk of life on here so here's a question for those of you who might know something about these topics.

I have a piece of lakeshore property and as you can see by the photo, my neighbor to the north has a building which seems to be sitting partially on my property according to the GIS lines. No big deal to me, I want to be a good neighbor and I'm not interested in causing a stink, I've never said anything about it to him. It's just a pole building he stores his boat in. The GIS lines are not legal anyway.




So now he decides to build another building and pours the concrete pad which appears to also have a corner on my property. I put a box on the pic where it is located. So I decide to contact him and chat about it. He says he doesn't know where the property lines are exactly and he's sorry if it's on my land. After some discussion, he stops construction on the building and calls a surveyor. The surveyor says it will be $2500 to find the property line. The neighbor then calls me and asks if I'll pay half of it. At first I figure that's fair enough but after thinking about I'm not really sure why I should. I finally told him don't worry about it let's just live and let live, which he seems okay with but now it's been 6 months and he has not continued building. Gotta feeling this isn't over.

It's really not worth it to me to pay $1250 just to know where the property line is. Should it be? And the next question is, if the buildings are actually on my land, What are my options? Sell him a slice of land? Is that worth all the trouble?

Looking for advice.

UPDATE:
based on the advice below I called the county zoning department and asked about setbacks. There is a setback requirement of 10 feet for both buildings so I am certain he is violating that, even if he's not violating the actual Line. Everyone I have talked to in the zoning and land departments are telling me that the lines are spot on. I guess my only real choice at this point is to sell him a slice of land. If he's not willing to buy the land and pay all the costs, I guess then we'll decide where to go from there. Interestingly, the zoning department checked and told me that he has not applied for a building permit yet.

Assuming they use metal pins, if you have a metal detector you could find the pins yourself.

You can buy a 300’ tape and use a metal detector to find the stakes if they are still there!! I done it. Only problem I can see, if he sells his property or dies and the kids sell it. I would try and find the line and put up a fence. Fences make good neighbors.

A good neighbor doesn't build on his neighbor's property.

If you as the trespassed party do not act or make some sort of prescriptive action you may, note may, fall afoul of adverse takings. Basically the neighbor may be able to make a claim of use of a period of time without action on your part defaulting to him some sort of right to use or ownership.
But I said may as all states are different in their laws.

Also I applaud you in wanting to be a good neighbor but you really do need to have that property line locked down and clearly marked. Good fences make good neighbors, you know.

I see but two ways to resolve this. If both are amenable to it, split the costs as both will benefit. If not then file suit for trespass and ask for him to foot the bill.

Or within 6 to 10 feet

I had a 2,500 survey done when I bought my 23Acres

Well worth the $$$$ worth more than a new well etc..

Yes get the Zoning guy out there to inspect. But straighten it out now!!!

After my survey, the assumed tree row edge was all mine, I gained 2 acres on the back side that wS "assumed" the neighbors.

In this case I would split the bill as no one seems to be absolutely sure where the line is. I wouldn't risk a war if something happens to him or his property. I may not fence him out of is buildings but something legal in writing would need to drawn up and filed if in fact part of his buildings are on your property. I wouldn't make a big deal of it but I have to ask. If you don't know where the property line is (meaning your neighbor) why in tarnation would you build something right on where you think the line is?

Dealing with a huge issue for the last few years over the same thing. Good neighbors letting family neighbors impose on where they "think" the line should have been. All fine until that generation passed and now multiple children/family members come with their hand out wanting their piece of the pie. Yet they want "someone else" to figure it out. FIX IT NOW and don't pass the problem on.

Consider selling him a slice off that edge of your property...............but at least establish where the actual line is and that he is encroaching.

Your deed should tell you exactly where the property markers are. You and your neighbor should look for the ones designating the north border of your property. It might be difficult to string a line from marker to marker or get a straight line of sight with it being wooded there though.

I own an odd shaped lot of several acres where I live now. My deed specified multiple markers, some where steel pins (some buried in the road frontage) others were concrete monuments. The deed specified directions and distances to each marker. I used it to find all but one which was a missing concrete monument that was taken out by a snowplow years earlier.

Same with my camp parcel. I used the deed to find all the markers on that five acre tract.

I don't know if all deeds are like that though.

If it's not a big deal to you I would just drop it which sounds like what you did. I wouldn't put up any money to find out if he is encroaching on your land though. That's on him.

Also, most places have township ordinances that specify certain setbacks from property lines. He is no doubt in violation of those (if your area has them) if his building is that close or over the property line.

The longer you let this go un determined it will get more intrusive first the building then the concrete ECT ECT. You may be out money but get it survey. If he's on you he will pay for it one way or another if not you will know for sure.

^^^^^^
THIS
If the original Corners cannot be found and/or you don't have confidence in those original corners, then I would without hesitation split the cost of the survey with him. I don't think he's being at all unreasonable. If you knowingly let him build there, it then becomes what is known as "open and notorious use", then, after a certain period of time which in most States is 7 years, some ten years, the property becomes his by "adverse possession".
Allowing this to happen, even if he never claims adverse possession, will affect your property's value and can hinder your sale of the property if you try to sell it in the future.

Get the survey. Eliminate so many potential problems.

Most municipalities have set-back requirements for primary residences and accessory buildings to prevent a situation like this occurring. I am code administrator for the township I live in and a detached garage is typically 5 to 10 feet off the property line depending on the zoning classification of the parcel. Minnesota may be different but in addition to the property line conflict the neighbor may be violating zoning code.

As a side bar, we had a lake resident add a patio on "their" land and absentee neighbor didn't have an issue. When neighboring property sold, survey revealed the issue. New property owner sold the patio owning neighbor a 10' strip (5 feet for the set-back and 5 feet for the patio) for a nice sum that cost more than what the patio addition was.

Dave

My wife is a surveyor and after the stories I have heard my advice is to hire your own surveyor and ask if the neighbor will split the cost. Don't go with one he hires...either way. Definitely get it done

Good idea!

You should have your lot surveyed and split the cost with him. Lol

$2500/4=625.00

$625/2 =$312.50 is half the cost of surveying the common line.

Better pay attention to adverse posession and/or color of title laws in your state as mentioned above...Whoever pays the taxes on the affected property bears a lot of weight, but so does open and notorious possesion like fences, buildings, and upkeep...And the more time that goes by, just gives a possible advantage to your neighbor.


As recommended above, get a surveyor to mark the property line.

Get it surveyed and split the cost, if the building is on yours then sell him a strip of land at the going rate. I will bet you come out ahead.

$2,500 is probably a good deal for the survey... each property is different, and depending on how the deeds are written, or what (if any) recent surveys are in the near vicinity, will dictate the cost of the survey. I recommend getting a second quote for the survey, unless you know the first quote is from an established company with a good reputation. A Boundary Line Adjustment (BLA) will be required to sell him a slice of land, and the total out of pocket cost of a BLA will be much more than $2,500.

regardless I STRONLY RECOMEND GETTING THE LINE SURVEYED ASAP!! waiting any longer will NOT be beneficial.

Lake frontage is where the value is. It should be appraised prior to selling it.

I don't get this concept. I would be the bad guy in this situation. Why would I suffer loss of my land because he screwed up? Is that not awarding him for bullying his way onto your property? In this case, HE should make it right and at his expense.

Excellent post!!!!!

I agree with you. But here is an idea on how to make this right, and I think everyone might be happy.
When doing a boundary line adjustment, you do not need to run the new line parallel to the existing line for example you don't need to give him 5 feet or so all the way down the line.
After looking at the old original diagram, you could take the boundary line in question and run it at an angle the axis of the property line being about in its center. On the Westside (or the road side of the property) the OP would give his neighbor several feet along the road, and on the east end of the property (or the lake side) the neighbor would give the OP an equal amount of footage. This is assuming the axis is in the middle of the property.

Now, assuming the lake frontage has more value than the road frontage, you could move the axis point of your line a little to the east thereby the neighbor would not be giving up as much footage along the lake, as the OP would be givi h up along the road.
The first scenario I mentioned would give both property owners an equal amount of property in exchange. The second option would apportion each property owner according to the value exchanged.
I hope I explained this clearly enough

My land, my money, I paid for it, I paid taxes for it. I will not give an inch, not one inch!

One thing to keep in mind is that the most recent surveyor is right. I had one of my lines run by a registered land surveyor. The neighbor didn't like it and got one of his drinking buddies who is a surveyor to run it again and low and behold the line moved 50+ feet. Crooked? Yes! My only legal recourse? Pay the $7500 to have the line run again. It sucks.

Request a meeting with all parties.

I did. They refused based on most recent surveyor being correct. The guy is a real "peach".

Glad you brought this up, dealing with that right now also. Have one deed, that shows my boundary. Another survey done 12 years later by the neighbor shows the line about 20 feet off to his benefit. How can that be? I'm no surveyor but I thought coordinances are global/exact???? Who and how do you figure which one is correct?

Did your surveyor provide you with an explanation? He should have. All surveyors are human. I don't know any that are crooks.

I don’t know the law in MN , but in NY if someone uses the property openly and notoriously for 10 years they may have a claim to the land through adverse possession. They have to prove that right, and it can be expensive to prove adverse possession in court. So I would get it surveyed and locate the exact line ASAP.

Depends on who that registered surveyor is: A registered DNR surveyor surveyed one edge of my field a few years ago. He marked the line about 30 feet into my corn field...which was another 40 feet from the actual line. Luckily I knew where one of the original corner- markers was located (from the 1800s I was told)

If you ever want to see a surveyor jump for joy like he just won the lottery, watch him find one of those old 1800s corner markers. It's entertaining and apparently a pretty big deal for a surveyor to be that accurate.

I always wondered how accurate the online GIS maps were.

I doubt the neighbor is going to go to court and spend thousands when he probably could move the existing shed with a come-a-long.

If you have a lot, there has already been a full survey done. You just need a surveyor to do a spot survey to find the pins......if you can't find them yourself.

Get it settled now, as a property line encroachment is a cloud on the title of both properties. His mistake, he gets to tear it all out and move it. There may be some other options to settle this, but mine is mine and yours is yours is the best route long term.

Have also seen several instances where survey lines have moved. Generally corners and fences set on lines established by government surveys done 150 years ago. With modern equipment, new surveys move the lines. Have yet to see a good resolution or standing rule of thumb or law to settle it. Guy who gains ground is always happy. Guy who loses ground always not.

I am a licensed Professional Land Surveyor in PA. I'll start by explaining what GIS means. GIS = Get It Surveyed. GIS lines are not "spot on" at times they are close, but never accurate for land boundary disputes. Selling a slice of land may not be easy. Most municipalities will have a book of rules explaining what must be done to sell the slice. In PA both properties would need surveyed and a sub-division plan filed. Without knowing parcel sizes I would guess you're looking at a $10,000 + job. At a minimum (to protect you interests) tell him in writing to remove his structures from your land or tell him that his structures are in violation of set back requirements and may in fact be on you land. You can either make a complaint with the governing municipality or let it slide. Letting it slide could result in you losing some land thru adverse possession.

Only one of the corners of my lot has a marker and it's on the opposite corner.

Don't think you're going to move a pole building or a concrete slab with a comealong.

Bernie,
Maybe he will let you pile a bunch of junk you seldom use in the corner of the building thats on your property. Then you will have re-established ownership and don't have to worry about adverse possession.

Eb got it right. But he forgot the lawyers fees when thing get heated up.

Getting that initial marker you have Degrees of angle off that marker to shoot from.

160user when you go back to the most recient survey you have to look at what field survey note book they used. Many times there were mistakes and corrections have to be made. They had to register that other survey and you would have had to been notified ( which you were probably not)

Bernie just remember the phrase; " you can divorce your wife but you can't divorce your neighbour"
put you foot down; it is going to cost you come selling time.

Attach it to the back of a D-6. Something will move.

To get a building permit he's going to have to provide them with at minimum a plot plan. Instead of trying to get you to pay half he should accept responsibility.

This is a creative solution; I know where this exact thing happened with a large pole building. It worked good for years until one of the parties sold their property, then it became a big issue.

Get a Building Permit to put up a Fence. When you go to the Building Inspector for the Permit, show him your Survey, and a picture of the neighbor's building and concrete on your property. Ask the Building Inspector if the Neighbor got a permit for that shed, and what the Building Inspector can do if that shed is on your property.

Build a rough old fence about 10 feet on his side of the line-he will pay for a survey.

Another thing to think about is your liability if someone get hurt around his building(s) on your property.

Squash,MN. does not have an adverse possession law. If a building or part of it is on your property--no matter how long,it is always your property . One of my neighbors put up one of those tarp type garages and part of it is on my land. He also built a shed that is not set back far enough from my line. I haven't forced the issue ,but made him aware of where his things really belonged. If things ever go down hill between us,I have the law on my side.
Tom

^^^^^^^^
Not trying to be a smart @#$, but I think a little bit of Googling around and you will find that Minnesota does indeed have adverse possession law. I did learn it is 15 years of open and notorious use though; never heard of a State where it is that many years.
OP should get some real legal advice though, don't take the word of us armchair experts as absolute truth.

This is not legal advice, but, assuming you can trust the guy at his word, you might make a deal with him that you'll pay half of the survey, IF it shows the buildings are on his property. But if the buildings encroach on your property, he has to pay the whole cost of the survey.

Try to set it up so he has to honor the deal. Have him front the money for the survey, with the understanding you'll pay him the half if the buildings don't encroach.

As Warrior pointed out, you could possibly lose part of your property to adverse possession by the neighbor if you do nothing. See a lawyer for advice here. But I wouldn't' sit on my hands if I were you.

Jim

If he is there by your permission, it's not adverse possession.

Jim

Here is an illustration of what I was suggesting in an earlier post. I actually did a BLA just like this in Washington a few years ago. Most jurisdictions allow BLA's (boundary line adjustments) like this without going through a difficult platting process; exactly for situations like this.

The diagram below will result a situation that exchanges the exact square footage of land between each owner as long as your axis point is in the middle of the property line. The red line represents the new property line. You can experiment around a bit and move the axis point to the east or west a bit, but it will result in one guy getting a little more land than the other guy.

If the neighbor complains that you are getting more lake frontage and that is more valuable than road frontage you can point out to him that he's the one who created the problem by building on your land in the first place.

James he never got my permission.
Tom

Survey the line in question. If the buildings encroach, cut out a triangle around each corner to allow for setbacks. The line does not have to be straight from the original corners.

UPDATE:

I had a phone conversation with him yesterday. He realizes he is in the wrong and is very apologetic. The original building was there before either one of us bought the places. The new one is his fault and he admits that. He agreed to pay for a surveyor to come and find the corner and then he wants to run a line towards the water and purchase a pie-shaped piece that will put all the buildings on his land including the 10-foot setback. This would give him more lakeshore which I don't care about since I have no intention of using that lakeshore anyway. My property taxes will go down because the 600 feet of lakeshore I have is what makes my property taxes so high. Good for me and it gets him off the hook.

He says the building materials for the new building will arrive in two weeks and wanted to know what he should do since we can't close a deal that fast, I told him go ahead and finish the building, we'll get this nailed down this summer. He will pay my price for that little piece of land of course but I am not going to gouge him. I'll just pay it on the principle of the mortgage. The bank should have no problem with it since I have plenty of equity on the property. Next step is to go to the bank and clear it with them.

He understands he is going to have to pay for everything. The guy just made an honest mistake and has owned up to it. Wish more people were like this. Plus he knows how to catch walleyes on this lake and now I have some leverage for finding out some of his spots!

""He says he doesn't know where the property lines are exactly and he's sorry if it's on my land.""

This statement right here is what would make me take action and then he would care where the property lines are.

Just because you don't know where the property line is is no excuse for encroaching on me, period

And just wait until you ever try to sell that property, going to be a pain

Let people run over you and they will continue to do so.

Phone calls are here-say in court ; get things in writing and notorized and get that survey done before the building.

I sure learned a lot about about how folks perceive legalities concerning boundary law from reading this thread.
Please carry on.

Zim

I don't really see any scenario in which this would end up in court, life is too short for that.

Very good advise for a practicing surveyor to give. lawyering up

BernieB next time they do a land tax valuation. You are going to get his buildings on your tax bill.....are you ready for that.

Last year with the pandemic and all the government money....there was a lot of " Honey DO List" and an very large up-takes of property surveys being done. numbers equalled the last 5 years worth.

For all those that said, just get metal detector and find the pins or irons, all that means is you found irons or pins in the ground, it doesn’t mean they are your property corner. That is why you hire a Professional Surveyor, it’s not just about wandering around with a metal detector and marking them. Many times those pins or irons are wrong, you have no idea whom set them. A surveyor worth his salt will not be just locating yours but those all around yours and making sure everything is correct.

It’s interesting to me the number of people that like to basically say screw their neighbor, sucks to be him. It’s like everyone these days want to fight, instead of trying to work together for a common resolution. People make mistakes and assume...and we all know what that does.

Bernie it looks like you are going about it in the right way.

I'm glad I don't have to live by some of the people on here. Would probably send me a bill because they thought I once took a little of their air. Sheese.

"love thy neighbor". Lets start there. Just a thought.

Glad it worked out for you, Bernie. As we see it was never worth freaking out over.

You did good and are obviously a good person.

Thought you might be interested in an update. He hired a surveyor who found that the new concrete slab he put down for a new building is inches from the property line and the county has a 10 foot setback rule so he is in violation. An existing building is 2.5 feet onto my property so also in violation.

We agreed to move the property line 15 feet to the south and agreed upon a price. He says a check is in the mail and we will sign an agreement when the surveyor gets the paperwork turned in to the county.

Sounds like you were both reasonable. Congratulations on finding a solution.

Jim

There is an old saying. " You can divorce your wife, but you have to live with your neighbours"

That should have cost him a pretty penny. Survey and filing a new property deed, and your having to have the bank accept the changes and their re-filing charges.
May be the County also has those buildings on your tax assessment as well, many use Google to count buildings, swimming pools etc

LOL Don't bet on your taxes going down. First if it has been awhile since the last property evaluation they will get you. IF the school/gov taxes went up since covid or change in politics it will go up.
Local school system here requested a a reval on all property and my home value went up 60,000 because of the free money bobo is printing.
Just read another thread about property value increases .