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What was the Civil War Fought Over?

Posted By: PFC Davis

What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:19 AM

This is just a thread on everyone's opinion on why the civil war was fought. I just want to know what you think and see the perspectives on both sides. Because I know there are a bit of stars and bars fliers on here. And for your information, I have just finished a history class that I had to discuss this topic and I was wondering what I missed

I just need to get cozy and read the comments below.
Posted By: Marty

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:30 AM

Some people wanted independence so lincoln crushed them all...
Posted By: NorthenTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:31 AM

Slavery and the economics surrounding it from my understanding I may be wrong though.
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:33 AM

States rights.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:37 AM

States' rights to enslave black people, now coded generally as "states' rights."

Read the statements of the state legislatures of the southern states and newspapers, if you have any doubt the war was fought over slavery.

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:56 AM

$$$ as in all wars. Just in this one it was the industrial high tariff north imposing it's will upon the cheap labor low tariff south.

Yes, cheap labor was slavery and I won't defend slavery anymore than we should defend cheap labor illegal immigration today. Ultimately cheap labor as in permanent lower class destroys whatever society it occurs in.

But the root cause was $$$. Nobody goes to war to free anybody. Otherwise we would be at war with China today. Hitler and Hirohito had how many years of free reign before we got involved and we actually allied ourselves with Stalin.
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:28 AM

Taxes!!!! The North can claim slavery all it wants!
Posted By: bearcat2

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:33 AM

States rights. As in the right of the states to decide whether they wanted to be part of the United States or not.

To expand on that even farther, the seceding states did not like the Federal government telling them what they could and could not do (and yes slavery was a part of this, not the whole and only reason as so many believe today, but a larger part than some on the other side claim it was). The seceding states believed they had the right to remove themselves from the United States if they didn't agree and want to be subject to the policies coming from the Federal government. The Union states believed that the Federal government should be the overseer and be able to tell/force the individual states what they could and couldn't do. If you read the Confederated States of America's founding documents and Constitution you will find that it limited the Federal government of their new country's power more explicitly and more severely than the United States. They did not want a powerful central government at all.

When Lincoln was elected the war was pretty much guaranteed. I totally understand why the states that didn't even have him on their ballot (almost all of the seceding states) were rather upset that he was elected President.

Personally I believe states should have the right to secede from the country if they choose to, but we've already fought a war over that and lost, so it is a moot point.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:35 AM

....where's my popcorn this is gonna be good
Posted By: H2ORat

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by warrior
$$$ as in all wars. Just in this one it was the industrial high tariff north imposing it's will upon the cheap labor low tariff south.

Yes, cheap labor was slavery and I won't defend slavery anymore than we should defend cheap labor illegal immigration today. Ultimately cheap labor as in permanent lower class destroys whatever society it occurs in.

But the root cause was $$$. Nobody goes to war to free anybody. Otherwise we would be at war with China today. Hitler and Hirohito had how many years of free reign before we got involved and we actually allied ourselves with Stalin.

Have to agree with ya. city people like cheap food --- that either comes from out of country or illegal labor. Life has become too easy in the U.S.
Posted By: beaverpeeler

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:39 AM

The northern states economies tied mainly to industry, the South to agriculture. South couldn't see how they could thrive without slave labor and ultimately decided they would be better off splitting from the North to keep stats quo. In those days I think most Americans felt a higher loyalty to their home state than the Union itself. So when your state seceded you did your duty as a patriot and volunteered for duty.

Most of men who fought for the confederacy were not slave holders, but fought for their belief in their state's right to decide for itself to be part of the Union or not. States' rights.
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:40 AM

Washington was laying pipe to the Southern states with high cotton taxes (tariffs). The South was becoming too rich too fast. There were more Millionaires in Mississippi than any other state. Money is/was power. Slavery would have been eventually ended (and was an ugly institution). Several Northern states would not even allow the blacks in them. But, in the end the North got to write history.
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by beaverpeeler
The northern states economies tied mainly to industry, the South to agriculture. South couldn't see how they could thrive without slave labor and ultimately decided they would be better off splitting from the North to keep stats quo. In those days I think most Americans felt a higher loyalty to their home state than the Union itself. So when your state seceded you did your duty as a patriot and volunteered for duty.

Very true! That's the reason R. E. Lee went with the south over the north.
Posted By: Bogmaster

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:45 AM

Same thing every time this subject is brought up ,been so many times over the years. Just a few new players as some have died and its brought up by one of the new guys,that hasn't gone through it before.
Now we have-masks,vaccine and the civil war to fight over.
Use your heads guys,be civil.
Tom
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by bearcat2
States rights. As in the right of the states to decide whether they wanted to be part of the United States or not.

Personally I believe states should have the right to secede from the country if they choose to, but we've already fought a war over that and lost, so it is a moot point.


Absolutely, I'd be more than glad to be shed of the blue states today. We need a peaceful separation or it will be war again and this go around will be even uglier.
Posted By: H2ORat

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:55 AM

Posted By: Grandpa Trapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 05:09 AM

Who knows. I don’t think they even knew back then.
Posted By: Drifter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 05:19 AM

States rights and the all mighty Dollar with plenty of greed mixed in.
Posted By: FairbanksLS

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 05:28 AM

A woman. By the time the war was over nobody could remember her name.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:01 AM

Yep, money. Very few white people in the 1860's thought black people were even Americans, let alone their equal. Slaves in union states were not emancipated till three years after the war was fought. Former slaves were still not equal under the law after the war. The threat of slaves providing manufacturing labor was no longer a threat to the factory owners of "free" states though. Lincoln got his dream. A central government with real authority rather than a collection of independent states sworn to mutual defense.
Posted By: Sprung & Rusty

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:40 AM

Taste great, less filling.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:43 AM

Oh boy.......I'll stay away from this one and just watch, except to say this....everyone had their own biased opinion. Obviously the southerners opinion is going to be biased, and same for the northerners. Instead of asking biased people, go back and study the history of it.

Just read the seceding documents that the states put out when they seceded. Those documents are the states own words as to why they seceded. Most of them cite protecting the institution of slavery for the reason for sececion.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:53 AM

For the powers that were, it was about money. For the rest of the folks it was how beaverpeeler explained it. IMO.
Ultimately the victors created the strong centralized government we have nowadays. Which will lead to the destruction of this great nation.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by loosegoose
Oh boy.......I'll stay away from this one and just watch, except to say this....everyone had their own biased opinion. Obviously the southerners opinion is going to be biased, and same for the northerners. Instead of asking biased people, go back and study the history of it.

Just read the seceding documents that the states put out when they seceded. Those documents are the states own words as to why they seceded. Most of them cite protecting the institution of slavery for the reason for sececion.

You think if the labor force that operated the textile mills that processed southern cotton would have been legislatively "taken" from them by Federal government that northerners would have acted differently?
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by J Staton
Which will lead to the destruction of this great nation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Drifter
States rights and the all mighty Dollar with plenty of greed mixed in.


Good but I'd add pride. Pridefulness has been the start of many, many, many a war.
Posted By: henpecked1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:33 AM

You can believe anything you want but it boiled down to money and any excuse to create a federal currency, Bowers book goes into great detail on the southern banks and the northern banks, States rights vs federal, it started with Hamilton and how to pay for the Revolutionary war; Federal Currency a requirement for a unified country, SAME AGENDA FOR GLOBALIZATION.

One of the big items in the foundation of our country was England would not allow us to have currency, there fore each state made its own. same agenda for the civil war.


https://www.money.org/ana-blog/QDBobsoletepapermoneybook

1861 to 1865
On the eve of the Civil War in 1861, the financial and banking system in the United States bore little resemblance to current institutions and practices. There was no central bank. The Federal Reserve System had yet to come into existence. Banking was largely a state regulated function
As in many other areas of national development, it was the Civil War which prompted radical change in the country's financial system. To pay for the men and material needed to fight the war, the government needed to increase revenue. There are three ways to do this: increasing taxes, borrowing funds, or printing money
The National Banking Era Begins, 1863
The National Banking Acts of 1863 and 1864
The National Banking era was ushered in by the passage of the National Currency (later renamed the National Banking) Acts of 1863 and 1864. The Acts marked a decisive change in the monetary system, confirmed a quarter-century-old trend in bank chartering arrangements, and also played a role in financing the Civil War.
Provision of a Uniform National Currency
As its original title suggests, one of the main objectives of the legislation was to provide a uniform national currency. Prior to the establishment of the national banking system, the national currency supply consisted of a confusing patchwork of bank notes issued under a variety of rules by banks chartered under different state laws. Notes of sound banks circulated side-by-side with notes of banks in financial trouble, as well as those of banks that had failed (not to mention forgeries). In fact, bank notes frequently traded at a discount, so that a one-dollar note of a smaller, less well-known bank (or, for that matter, of a bank at some distance) would likely have been valued at less than one dollar by someone receiving it in a transaction. The confusion was such as to lead to the publication of magazines that specialized in printing pictures, descriptions, and prices of various bank notes, along with information on whether or not the issuing bank was still in existence.
Under the legislation, newly created national banks were empowered to issue national bank notes backed by a deposit of US Treasury securities with their chartering agency, the Department of the Treasury’s Comptroller of the Currency. The legislation also placed a tax on notes issued by state banks, effectively driving them out of circulation. Bank notes were of uniform design and, in fact, were printed by the government. The amount of bank notes a national bank was allowed to issue depended upon the bank’s capital (which was also regulated by the act) and the amount of bonds it deposited with the Comptroller. The relationship between bank capital, bonds held, and note issue was changed by laws in 1874, 1882, and 1900 (Cagan 1963, James 1976, and Krooss 1969).
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:44 AM

Humans kill each other over all sorts of things we hold dear. It is our history.
The most marvelous "wonder" of the 7 wonders of the ancient world, the Greek Temple of Artemis (Diana in the language of the Romans - Latin) was the pinnacle of human achievement at that time.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The rural folks adored Diana because she was the goddess of the forest, the animals, and fertility. The peasants would stare for days at the wonder of the temple and be the first to sign up to go to war to protect the daughter of Zeus' honor. Many of their ancestors had been slave labor who suffered and died to create a great wonder.

Here's what's left of their blood, sweat, and tears in Ephesus, Turkey today.
[Linked Image]
Nothing. Rust and moths do consume.
The single column was recently erected to show where the monstrous temple had been.

History is fascinating to those who ponder the things of old - as we watch modern day slave labor advocated, modern day wonders adored, and modern day wars fought.
Ain't much changed has there?

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 12:05 PM

I’m more concerned about why the next one will be fought.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 12:11 PM

Oh I suppose HT, it'll be fought over those things humans hold dear.
Wonder what Americans hold dear? I remember "90 days same as cash!" but I think those days as behind us.
Seems more like I buy - you pay today, and more and more folks are signing that check.
It'll have consequences.
Human decisions always do.



Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: EdP

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 12:42 PM

James M McPherson, a renowned US historian, has written at least 2 excellent books on the Civil War: "Battle Cry for Freedom" and "For Cause and Comrad." McPherson makes the point that the causes of the war and the reasons men fought may be different.

James made an excellent point regarding the reasons for the attempted secession of the southern states. Nothing makes their mindset more clear than the arguments made for and against secession in the state legislatures. However, as the old saying goes, it takes two to tango. The north could have let the initial seven states that formed the confederacy to secede, so there is more to be looked at to get a better understanding.

The more you read and learn about the Civil War the more you come to understand that the times were different, peoples values and mindsets were different, and we cannot fairly judge what people did then by our current values and mindsets.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:08 PM

Very insightful EdP. Very.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:11 PM

Any time you wonder if the War between the States (there is no civil war) was because of slavery, first remember during that time there were many slaves in the north also.....Then ask yourself now in modern times without slavery, what would happen if several states succeeded and tried to form their own government.


If your not smart enough to see that, you would have caught a musket ball right between the eyes on the first day, lol.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:17 PM

Modern days without slaves? We have countless millions of slaves, both sexual and indentured, in the world and in this nation.

They estimate we have 600,000 "slavs" in Texas currently; about 75-80% indentured and the rest sexually exploited.
If you think us moderns have irradicated the human slave trade you simply don't know what is occurring around you.

I don't know about dodging musket fire.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Modern days without slaves? We have countless millions of slaves, both sexual and indentured, in the world and in this nation.

They estimate we have 600,000 "slavs" in Texas currently; about 75-80% indentured and the rest sexually exploited.
If you think us moderns have irradicated the human slave trade you simply don't know what is occurring around you.

I don't know about dodging musket fire.


Yeah okay, great way to try and twist it, everybody knows what I meant Mark.
Posted By: walleyed

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Samuel D
This is just a thread on everyone's opinion on why the civil war was fought.


It was fought because of arrogance & stupidity.

On both sides. frown

w
Posted By: Scuba1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:33 PM

What I want to know is ,when will the next one kick off.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Scuba1
What I want to know is ,when will the next one kick off.


Already has at T-Man, Lol grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by ky_coyote_hunter
Originally Posted by Mark June
Modern days without slaves? We have countless millions of slaves, both sexual and indentured, in the world and in this nation.

They estimate we have 600,000 "slavs" in Texas currently; about 75-80% indentured and the rest sexually exploited.
If you think us moderns have irradicated the human slave trade you simply don't know what is occurring around you.

I don't know about dodging musket fire.


Yeah okay, great way to try and twist it, everybody knows what I meant Mark.


Twist? I read your post which states; "Then ask yourself now in modern times without slavery.."
We're only as good as the information provided and you were the provider.
Blame me for reading your words?
Let me re-read it and see if I come up with another interpretation.
Nope. It says "without slavery" every time I read it.
But the internet is a Al Gore contraption so maybe your line of thought didn't come through loud and clear.


grin
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 02:10 PM

"Founding of Liberia, 1847

The founding of Liberia in the early 1800s was motivated by the domestic politics of slavery and race in the United States as well as by U.S. foreign policy interests. In 1816, a group of white Americans founded the American Colonization Society (ACS) to deal with the “problem” of the growing number of free blacks in the United States by resettling them in Africa. The resulting state of Liberia would become the second (after Haiti) black republic in the world at that time."

"Lincoln desired to return former slaves to Africa or other tropical regions, with their consent and the accord of the authorities of the country where they were to be settled. He repeated his support for colonization numerous times, including during the American Civil War."
Posted By: SNIPERBBB

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 02:27 PM

Charles Sumner wasn't nearly to be beaten to death because of taxes in the Senate chamber.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 02:48 PM

Quote


Twist? I read your post which states; "Then ask yourself now in modern times without slavery.."
We're only as good as the information provided and you were the provider.
Blame me for reading your words?
Let me re-read it and see if I come up with another interpretation.
Nope. It says "without slavery" every time I read it.
But the internet is a Al Gore contraption so maybe your line of thought didn't come through loud and clear.


grin


The discussion at hand is What was the War Between the States fought over......In that context anyone with any amount of reading comprehension would know that is was African American slaves being discussed relative to the war.

To veer off on indentured servants, sex slaves, etc. in modern times only shows you fired up a blunt this morning, now didn't ya Mark? laugh
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 02:49 PM

Interesting fact. Less than 10% of southerners owned 90% of the slaves. And geographically that was focused on the best soils. Most of these large slave owners did not themselves live on the plantations where their slaves were.

Sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:06 PM

"Relocating to Liberia

Liberia is a nation that, until 2003, was beset by long-running and fierce civil war. Approximately 250,000 people were killed in the civil war and the country was left devastated economically and replete with weaponry that often fell into the hands of unscrupulous individuals. Knowledge of this conflict is important for expatriates thinking of relocating there. "

"The First Liberian Civil War was an internal conflict in Liberia from 1989 until 1997. The conflict killed about 250,000 people[2] and eventually led to the involvement of the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) and of the United Nations. The peace did not last long, and in 1999 the Second Liberian Civil War broke out. "
Posted By: SNIPERBBB

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:09 PM

https://wallbuilders.com/confronting-civil-war-revisionism-south-went-war/
Posted By: Boco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:11 PM

I think the liberals would like to see Minneapolis and other American cities become just like Monrovia Liberia.

Liberal-Liberia-there is a connection there.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:17 PM

"Since 1991, the United States has provided safe haven for Liberians who were forced to flee their country as a result of armed conflict and widespread civil strife, in part through the grant of Temporary Protected Status (TPS). The armed conflict ended in 2003, and TPS for affected Liberian nationals ended effective October 1, 2007. President Bush then deferred the enforced departure of those Liberians originally granted TPS. President Obama, in successive memoranda, extended that grant of Deferred Enforced Departure (DED) to March 31, 2018. President Trump then determined that conditions in Liberia did not warrant a further extension of DED, but that the foreign policy interests of the United States warranted affording an orderly transition period for Liberian DED beneficiaries. President Trump later extended that DED transition period through March 30, 2020. "
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 03:34 PM

I'm not really sure what liberia, especially modern day liberia, has to do with the causes of the civil war.
Posted By: Davisfur

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:01 PM

Anyone that thinks the war was fought over slavery is daft and needs to do some reading about the "Corwin amendment" a proposed 13th amendment sent to the governors of all the the states by Lincoln in 1861 that guanteed them the right to keep slaves forever if they would only stop their session from the union. If the war had been about slavery it would have ended right there without a shot fired. The war was about a states right to separate itself from the federal government if they saw fit to mostly due to tariffs on southern exports to the north.
Posted By: zallen

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:44 PM

Tangentially why were the states no allowed to voluntarily secede from the union they voluntarily joined? As far as slavery Mark June was correct.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:46 PM

Interesting Fact #3: Northerners too owned slaves and fought a war to prevent slave ownership, makes sense, right?.....Nah, I didn't think so.
Posted By: rendezvous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:49 PM

The south's position was State Rights, but that primary right was slavery. The North's position was preserving the Union primarily. But the catalyst that lead to civil war was the potential abolishment of slavery, especially with the reelection of President Abraham Lincoln.

As for the bars and stars, for me it is the equivalent as flying the sickle and hammer. Both stand for the destruction of the United States of America.
Posted By: Marty

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 04:56 PM

Lee should have tactically redeployed after day 1 at Gettysburg.

I would happily join any state that leaves the current USA and follows the original constitution. Hopefully a state without a violent/corrupt inner city.

If the second war for freedom was fought over slavery it is ironic that they are pushing for the 3rd war using the same race as the reason.



Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by loosegoose
I'm not really sure what liberia, especially modern day liberia, has to do with the causes of the civil war.


Appears this was Lincoln's cause. " To send blacks somewhere else". It is ironic, that now the new home is so bad, that many of their ancestors want to move here.
Posted By: beaverpeeler

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 08:27 PM

Ask 10 different black Americans if they are glad their ancestors were uprooted from Africa and brought here as slaves so that their descendants would one day have a better life than they would have had back in Africa.

I'm guessing a small % will say they are happy their great great greats were sold into bondage.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 08:37 PM

If the southern states that seceded were all about states rights, why, then, did the CSA have a clause in it's constitution that all CSA states had to allow slavery? Why wouldn't they allow their states the right to choose whether or not to allow slavery?
Posted By: charles

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:39 PM

States rights to allow slavery.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by ky_coyote_hunter
Quote


Twist? I read your post which states; "Then ask yourself now in modern times without slavery.."
We're only as good as the information provided and you were the provider.
Blame me for reading your words?
Let me re-read it and see if I come up with another interpretation.
Nope. It says "without slavery" every time I read it.
But the internet is a Al Gore contraption so maybe your line of thought didn't come through loud and clear.


grin


The discussion at hand is What was the War Between the States fought over......In that context anyone with any amount of reading comprehension would know that is was African American slaves being discussed relative to the war.

To veer off on indentured servants, sex slaves, etc. in modern times only shows you fired up a blunt this morning, now didn't ya Mark? laugh


You're not good at firing shots over bows trapper friend.
As far as reading comprehension, I'd win that easily with a Rush L. hand tied behind my back to make it fair grin... and as I tie it back there, you might want to crack a book about what you do not realize which is the fact that slaves of the civil war era were all manner, from domestic servitude, to forced laborers, bonded labor, to child labor, and sex trafficking.

The dialog got into waters you don't paddle and that's ok. I'll teach. Grab a pencil.

smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:40 PM

As stated earlier, The civil war was not incited or faught to free the slaves.

The general reason hinges on states rights, specifically on federal taxes and tariffs. The south agricultural economy was originally using northern ports to ship or distribute their product. The northern states were steadily increasing taxes on the southern goods passing thru these ports. When the southern agricultural states began developing naval ports on their east coast for their purpose of distributing their good, the federal government responded by creating the same tax levees on these southern ports similar to the northern ports.

This was unacceptable to these southern states and tipped the already unsteady relationship over the top, the south succeeded, and the federal government supported by northern states fought to uphold the union.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:45 PM

This thread will only have merit if/when Savell responds. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 09:48 PM

That left a mark JS. He's prolly out hunting snakes or such about now.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
That left a mark JS. He's prolly out hunting snakes or such about now.

laugh
Posted By: bblwi

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:02 PM

Slaves (human workers) were the biggest asset the southern states or land owners had. There were 9 million people in the southern states at the time of the start of the war, of which roughly 1 million were slaves. The type of agriculture the south had, cotton and tobacco were labor intensive thus slaves were utilized to do most of the manual work. Without slaves the wealthier southerners would not have near the assets nor the labor to harvest crops and thus little to no liquidity, so fighting for the right to maintain ownership was considered to be their best option at the time. States rights may well have played into the argument, but money and economies were a bigger deal. States rights has gained more traction in the later years as it is deemed a more noble cause then fighting to maintain ownership of humans.
Also in the North if you could find someone to take your place for the draft you could and the going rate was $200. Many new immigrants took that as they were not aware of the sacrifice of the service, but Homestead Act promos etc. encouraged them to take the risk.
In the south if you owned 20 or more slaves you were exempted from fighting which is why the southern slogan was "it is a rich man's war and a poor man's fight".

Bryce
Posted By: Boco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:03 PM

The fact remains the South was unsuccessful in succeeding to secede.Bunch of suckholes.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:13 PM

Losers.

Jim
Posted By: trapdog1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:15 PM

Same as all wars - Money and control.
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:25 PM



Splitting hairs. Slavery would not have been the driving cause were it not for the cheap labor slavery provided. One aspect of eternal racial slavery as opposed to economic slavery (indenture, debtor, etc) is that it inculcated a sense of permanence and social structure that made it's abolition unthinkable.
Had slavery not been profitable I guarantee the south would've forcibly removed the black population.
Posted By: ky_coyote_hunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:28 PM

Quote


The discussion at hand is What was the War Between the States fought over......In that context anyone with any amount of reading comprehension would know that is was African American slaves being discussed relative to the war.

To veer off on indentured servants, sex slaves, etc. in modern times only shows you fired up a blunt this morning, now didn't ya Mark? laugh


Quote
You're not good at firing shots over bows trapper friend.
As far as reading comprehension, I'd win that easily with a Rush L. hand tied behind my back to make it fair grin... and as I tie it back there, you might want to crack a book about what you do not realize which is the fact that slaves of the civil war era were all manner, from domestic servitude, to forced laborers, bonded labor, to child labor, and sex trafficking.

The dialog got into waters you don't paddle and that's ok. I'll teach. Grab a pencil.



Pride cometh before a fall big boy, I'll go get the pencil, now you just go on with all your holy awesomeness.
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by rendezvous
The south's position was State Rights, but that primary right was slavery. The North's position was preserving the Union primarily. But the catalyst that lead to civil war was the potential abolishment of slavery, especially with the reelection of President Abraham Lincoln.

As for the bars and stars, for me it is the equivalent as flying the sickle and hammer. Both stand for the destruction of the United States of America.


I would disagree on the north seeking to preserve the union. Do realize just how much export revenue left with the south? Those very tariffs we objected to were over half of the entire federal revenue stream. Lincoln had as much if not more of a financial reason to force the southern states back into the union.
Posted By: SNIPERBBB

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:37 PM

Not much as apparently the british told them to pound sand when they threatened to stop exporting when they were lookinging for recognition and support.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/05/21 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Boco
The fact remains the South was unsuccessful in succeeding to secede.Bunch of suckholes.

Originally Posted by James
Losers.

Jim



Best posts of the thread so far.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:06 AM

Boco just a reminder about us southerners...



James and shooter just be glad us losers took care of Cornwallis for y'all. There wouldn't have been a union to fight for.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:17 AM

^this is true. And also a good song. The kids get annoyed when I sing it too much.
Posted By: Jtrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:47 AM

Farm equipment
Posted By: WhiteTrash 88

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:49 AM

Anyone that graduated 6th grade got it hammered into em, that it was fought over freeing the oppressed black slaves. Now I never claimed to have made it that far in school but, if that was the main reason this country went to war, why did ol Abe wait until the Yankee's were about to lose before he issued the Emancipation Proclamation declaring them free. Me thinks he done that to start a uprising to slow the Johnny Reb arsewhooping gettin laid on the Yanks. I don't think he ever intended to free them, but was grasping at straws to save the North in a fight he never wanted to get into. Then that drunk Indian fighter from Missouri showed up to save the Nation. What a puttz. Conspiracy theory,maybe, maybe not.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:56 AM

If that darn Mississippi River wouldn't have flowed from north to south, that there drunk indian fighter might not of made it to Vicksburg.
On a side note, if any of y'all yanks want to play Sherman and burn Atlanta to the ground I'm sure you would have a lot of southerners volunteer to wear the blue.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:08 AM

Sorry, but as much as you twist it, you’ll never make the war to be about slavery because it wasn’t.

It was about taxes and freedom.

Or as someone said above, money and control.
Posted By: Savell

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:16 AM

The civil war was fought over wether the US would be a nation of men or sissies...unfortunately due to shear numbers, a navy and a few other things the sissies won and now we have things like this...


[Linked Image]

... congratulations yanks.. y’all should be proud lol
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:17 AM

Savell, you been cruising them naughty sites again?
Posted By: Boco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Savell
The civil war was fought over wether the US would be a nation of men or sissies...unfortunately due to shear numbers, a navy and a few other things the sissies won and now we have things like this...


[Linked Image]

... congratulations yanks.. y’all should be proud lol



Where'd you get that pic of wolfie and JP?
Posted By: Bosco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Scout1
Taxes!!!! The North can claim slavery all it wants!

Nailed it! They can rewrite history and change the facts to try and justify what they did, But the facts are it was only about taxes period.
Posted By: hippie

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Samuel D
This is just a thread on everyone's opinion on why the civil war was fought. I just want to know what you think and see the perspectives on both sides. Because I know there are a bit of stars and bars fliers on here. And for your information, I have just finished a history class that I had to discuss this topic and I was wondering what I missed

I just need to get cozy and read the comments below.



What was the consensus of your history class/teacher?
Posted By: Jtrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 01:46 AM

Actually it was about tariffs.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Savell
The civil war was fought over wether the US would be a nation of men or sissies...unfortunately due to shear numbers, a navy and a few other things the sissies won and now we have things like this...


[Linked Image]

... congratulations yanks.. y’all should be proud lol

The sissies surrendered.
Posted By: PFC Davis

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 02:27 AM

Information Overload!!! laugh crazy
Posted By: hippie

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by hippie
Originally Posted by Samuel D
This is just a thread on everyone's opinion on why the civil war was fought. I just want to know what you think and see the perspectives on both sides. Because I know there are a bit of stars and bars fliers on here. And for your information, I have just finished a history class that I had to discuss this topic and I was wondering what I missed

I just need to get cozy and read the comments below.



What was the consensus of your history class/teacher?
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Savell
The civil war was fought over wether the US would be a nation of men or sissies...unfortunately due to shear numbers, a navy and a few other things the sissies won and now we have things like this...


[Linked Image]

... congratulations yanks.. y’all should be proud lol

See Mark June I told you this thread would have no merit until Savell posted. Shots fired!!! laugh
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 05:59 AM

Probably the best evidence of the causes of the secession of the southern states are the proclamations or ordinances of secession enacted by these states in 1860-61. Let's look at Texas, for instance:



The government of the United States, by certain joint resolutions, bearing date the 1st day of March, in the year A.D. 1845, proposed to the Republic of Texas, then a free, sovereign and independent nation, the annexation of the latter to the former as one of the co-equal States thereof,

The people of Texas, by deputies in convention assembled, on the fourth day of July of the same year, assented to and accepted said proposals and formed a constitution for the proposed State, upon which on the 29th day of December in the same year, said State was formally admitted into the Confederated Union.

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility [sic] and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slave-holding States.

By the disloyalty of the Northern States and their citizens and the imbecility of the Federal Government, infamous combinations of incendiaries and outlaws have been permitted in those States and the common territory of Kansas to trample upon the federal laws, to war upon the lives and property of Southern citizens in that territory, and finally, by violence and mob law, to usurp the possession of the same as exclusively the property of the Northern States.

The Federal Government, while but partially under the control of these our unnatural and sectional enemies, has for years almost entirely failed to protect the lives and property of the people of Texas against the Indian savages on our border, and more recently against the murderous forays of banditti from the neighboring territory of Mexico; and when our State government has expended large amounts for such purpose, the Federal Government has refused reimbursement therefor, thus rendering our condition more insecure and harrassing than it was during the existence of the Republic of Texas.

These and other wrongs we have patiently borne in the vain hope that a returning sense of justice and humanity would induce a different course of administration.

When we advert to the course of individual non-slave-holding States, and that [of] a majority of their citizens, our grievances assume far greater magnitude.

return to top

The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holdings States in their domestic institutions--a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States.

By consolidating their strength, they have placed the slave-holding States in a hopeless minority in the federal congress, and rendered representation of no avail in protecting Southern rights against their exactions and encroachments.

They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a "higher law" than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.

They have invaded Southern soil and murdered unoffending citizens, and through the press their leading men and a fanatical pulpit have bestowed praise upon the actors and assassins in these crimes, while the governors of several of their States have refused to deliver parties implicated and indicted for participation in such offences, upon the legal demands of the States aggrieved.

They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides.

They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose.

They have impoverished the slave-holding States by unequal and partial legislation, thereby enriching themselves by draining our substance.

They have refused to vote appropriations for protecting Texas against ruthless savages, for the sole reason that she is a slave-holding State.

return to top

And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States.

In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States.

By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.

For these and other reasons, solemnly asserting that the federal constitution has been violated and virtually abrogated by the several States named, seeing that the federal government is now passing under the control of our enemies to be diverted from the exalted objects of its creation to those of oppression and wrong, and realizing that our own State can no longer look for protection, but to God and her own sons--We the delegates of the people of Texas, in Convention assembled, have passed an ordinance dissolving all political connection with the government of the United States of America and the people thereof and confidently appeal to the intelligence and patriotism of the freemen of Texas to ratify the same at the ballot box, on the 23rd day of the present month.

Adopted in Convention on the 2nd day of Feby, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one and of the independence of Texas the twenty-fifth.

SOURCE:
Winkler, Ernest William, ed. Journal of the Secession Convention of Texas 1861, Edited From the Original in the Department of State.... Austin: Texas Library and Historical Commission, 1912, pp. 61-65.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 06:01 AM

Hmm. Texas said nothing about taxes or tariffs, did they?

Shall we look for more evidence of southern secession by researching the other states' secession documents?

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 06:07 AM

And it looks like Georgia didn't have concern over tariffs and taxes. Only slavery.




Declaration of the Causes of Secession, Georgia
January 29, 1861

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. But a distinct abolition party was not formed in the United States for more than half a century after the Government went into operation. The main reason was that the North, even if united, could not control both branches of the Legislature during any portion of that time. Therefore such an organization must have resulted either in utter failure or in the total overthrow of the Government. The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States.... They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

...After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people. The South and the Northwestern States sustained this policy. There was but small hope of its reversal; upon the direct issue, none at all.

All these classes saw this and felt it and cast about for new allies. The anti-slavery sentiment of the North offered the best chance for success. An anti-slavery party must necessarily look to the North alone for support, but a united North was now strong enough to control the Government in all of its departments, and a sectional party was therefore determined upon. Time and issues upon slavery were necessary to its completion and final triumph. The feeling of anti-slavery, which it was well known was very general among the people of the North, had been long dormant or passive; it needed only a question to arouse it into aggressive activity. This question was before us. We had acquired a large territory by successful war with Mexico; Congress had to govern it; how, in relation to slavery, was the question then demanding solution. This state of facts gave form and shape to the anti-slavery sentiment throughout the North and the conflict began. Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation and demanded the prompt and efficient exercise of this power to that end. This insulting and unconstitutional demand was met with great moderation and firmness by the South. We had shed our blood and paid our money for its acquisition; we demanded a division of it on the line of the Missouri restriction or an equal participation in the whole of it. These propositions were refused, the agitation became general, and the public danger was great. The case of the South was impregnable. The price of the acquisition was the blood and treasure of both sections-- of all, and, therefore, it belonged to all upon the principles of equity and justice.

...The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.

...For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates.

These are the same men who say the Union shall be preserved.

Such are the opinions and such are the practices of the Republican party, who have been called by their own votes to administer the Federal Government under the Constitution of the United States. We know their treachery; we know the shallow pretenses under which they daily disregard its plainest obligations. If we submit to them it will be our fault and not theirs. The people of Georgia have ever been willing to stand by this bargain, this contract; they have never sought to evade any of its obligations; they have never hitherto sought to establish any new government; they have struggled to maintain the ancient right of themselves and the human race through and by that Constitution. But they know the value of parchment rights in treacherous hands, and therefore they refuse to commit their own to the rulers whom the North offers us. Why? Because by their declared principles and policy they have outlawed $3,000,000,000 of our property in the common territories of the Union; put it under the ban of the Republic in the States where it exists and out of the protection of Federal law everywhere; because they give sanctuary to thieves and incendiaries who assail it to the whole extent of their power, in spite of their most solemn obligations and covenants; because their avowed purpose is to subvert our society and subject us not only to the loss of our property but the destruction of ourselves, our wives, and our children, and the desolation of our homes, our altars, and our firesides. To avoid these evils we resume the powers which our fathers delegated to the Government of the United States, and henceforth will seek new safeguards for our liberty, equality, security, and tranquillity.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 06:13 AM

South Carolina. No mention of tariffs or taxes.



Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina From the Federal Union


December 24, 1860


The People of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue....

In the year 1765, that portion of the British Empire embracing Great Britain, undertook to make laws for the government of that portion composed of the thirteen American Colonies. A struggle for the right of self-government ensued, which resulted, on the 4th July, 1776, in a Declaration by the Colonies, "that they are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES....

They further solemnly declared that whenever any "form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government." Deeming the Government of Great Britain to have become destructive of these ends, they declared that the Colonies "are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown...."

In pursuance of this Declaration of Independence, each of the thirteen States proceeded to exercise its separate sovereignty; adopted for itself a Constitution, and appointed officers for the administration of government in all its departments--Legislative, Executive, and Judicial. For purposes of defence, they united their arms and their counsels; and, in 1778, they entered into a league known as the Articles of Confederation, whereby they agreed to entrust the administration of their external relations to a common agent, known as the Congress of the United States, expressly declaring, in the first article, "that each State retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence...."

Thus were established the two great principles asserted by the Colonies, namely: the right of a State to govern itself; and the right of a people to abolish a Government when it becomes destructive of the ends for which it is instituted....

In 1787, Deputies were appointed by the States to revise the Articles of Confederation, and...these Deputies recommended, for the adoption of the States...the Constitution of the United States.

The parties to whom this Constitution was submitted, were the several sovereign States; they were to agree or disagree, and when nine of them agreed, the compact was to take effect among those concurring; and the General Government, as the common agent, was then to be invested with their authority....

By this Constitution, certain duties were imposed upon the several States, and the exercise of certain of their powers were restrained, which necessarily implied their continued existence as sovereign States. But, to remove all doubt, an amendment was added, which declared that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people....

We hold that the mode of its [the United States's] formation subjects it to a...fundamental principle: the law of compact. We maintain that in every compact between two or more parties, the obligation is mutual; that the failure of one of the contracting parties to perform a material part of the agreement, entirely releases the obligation of the other.... We assert, that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused for years past to fulfill their constitutional obligations....

The Constitution of the United States, in its 4th Article, provides as follows:

"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of slavery has led to a disregard of their obligations.... [The northern] States...have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress, or render useless any attempt to execute them.... Thus the constitutional compact has been deliberately broken....

The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

Those [non-slaveholding] States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace...property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the Common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery.
He is to be entrusted with the administration of the Common Government, because he has declared that the "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that Slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship persons, who, by the Supreme Law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive to its peace and safety.

On the 4th of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced, that the South shall be excluded from the common Territory; that the Judicial Tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The Guarantees of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy....

Sources:
Library of Congress
J.A. May & J.R. Faunt, South Carolina Secedes (U. of S. Car. Pr, 1960), pp. 76-81
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 06:17 AM

And Mississippi. Again, no mention of tariffs or taxes, just slavery.


A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.

The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.

The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.

It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.

It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.

It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.

It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.

It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.

Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.

Our decision is made. We follow in their footsteps. We embrace the alternative of separation; and for the reasons here stated, we resolve to maintain our rights with the full consciousness of the justice of our course and the undoubting belief of our ability to maintain it.

Citation:

Journal of the State Convention and Ordinances and Resolutions
Adopted in January 1861 with an Appendix Published by order of the Convention.

Jackson, Mississippi: E. Barksdale State Printer, 1861, pp. 86-88.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 06:17 AM

The source for the above: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/ac...outh_secede/south_secede_mississippi.cfm

'Nuff said yet?

Jim
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 09:29 AM

Had you rather have 1 choice or 50?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:27 AM

Darn James, you been archive diving! Well played.

Whether it was taxes, states rights, slavery, tariffs, or a blend of these and more, wars are always fought over the same paraphrased episode of events;

You can't tell me
evolves to
You best not tell me or else
which evolves to
If you dare tell me if gonna ______,
which leads to
BAM, I told ya.

Some of y'all been doing that since the grade school play yard so you know what the next line is;

"See what happened to you now that you messed with me!"

Blessings,
Mark

Oh and Savell. I can't unsee that pic with you in it. Bad hand.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:36 AM

It’s looking like the next one will be fought over slavery for sure.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by J Staton
Originally Posted by Savell
The civil war was fought over wether the US would be a nation of men or sissies...unfortunately due to shear numbers, a navy and a few other things the sissies won and now we have things like this...


[Linked Image]

... congratulations yanks.. y’all should be proud lol

See Mark June I told you this thread would have no merit until Savell posted. Shots fired!!! laugh


I see no merit in this post. At any level. Promise.
In fact, it probably makes the memories of those who fought on either side of the great battle tarnish just a little bit more and today's culture has all but buried our country's history anyway as they craft a new America.

I see the new America in this pic. Sadly.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:51 AM

I wonder what the Cincinnati riots of 1836 and 1841 were about?
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:54 AM

How about the Flying Horse riot in Philadelphia in 1834?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:59 AM

How about the Great War of America in 2027?

No - I'm not one of the prophets - the last one of the real ones died 2,000 years ago.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
How about the Great War of America in 2027?

No - I'm not one of the prophets - the last one of the real ones died 2,000 years ago.


I was thinking 2024. The "world" is now the U.S.A.'s Light. I expect our downfall is not far away. There is Hope if only as a nation we'll realize that.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 11:08 AM

Well, if that's the case, that light is sure as the dickens NOT the life of men.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:01 PM

"Mene, Mene, tekel, Upharsin". I believe the writing is on the wall for the U.S.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton
"Mene, Mene, tekel, Upharsin". I believe the writing is on the wall for the U.S.


I believe it has been.


Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: kiyote

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 04:10 PM

Slavery was an issue to some but it appears that wasn't the main issue of the war. In Abraham Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley he stated: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
Posted By: Marty

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 05:19 PM

the war of northern aggression which started the fall to where we are today.
Posted By: Steven 49er

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Marty
the war of northern aggression which started the fall to where we are today.



While that may be true of the strong central government we have at present, without reunification neither country alone wouldn't have achieved what we have up to date and most likely neither country would still be around.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Steven 49er
Originally Posted by Marty
the war of northern aggression which started the fall to where we are today.



While that may be true of the strong central government we have at present, without reunification neither country alone wouldn't have achieved what we have up to date and most likely neither country would still be around.


Both countries would be around. Neither country would be threatened from the North or the South. Hard to project power across an ocean for any real threat.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt


Both countries would be around. Neither country would be threatened from the North or the South. Hard to project power across an ocean for any real threat.

If the CSA was still around, do you think they'd still have the part in their constitution about states not having the right to choose to ban slavery? Or do you think they'd have gotten rid of that by now? They'd have to remove at least 2 sections.

Article I section 9 of the CSA constitution states that no laws could be passed denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves.

Article IV section 2 talked about the rights to travel and have property in negro slaves as well.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by loosegoose
Originally Posted by Dirt


Both countries would be around. Neither country would be threatened from the North or the South. Hard to project power across an ocean for any real threat.

If the CSA was still around, do you think they'd still have the part in their constitution about states not having the right to choose to ban slavery? Or do you think they'd have gotten rid of that by now? They'd have to remove at least 2 sections.

Article I section 9 of the CSA constitution states that no laws could be passed denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves.

Article IV section 2 talked about the rights to travel and have property in negro slaves as well.


The CSA would change it by at least 1900 by amendment. The western civilization trend was to end slavery, and slavery would be replaced by machines or low priced labor.
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 09:31 PM

Interesting. Several of the states stated that preserving slavery was the very reason they seceded. You think they'd have just given it up? They weren't just keeping slaves because they needed labor, they ere keeping them because they didn't view them as human. Advancements in machinery weren't going to suddenly make racists view blacks as human.
Posted By: foxkidd44

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 09:51 PM

Money and power,,,, in a nutshell... although many contributing factors led to it,,, those were the ultimate reasons.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:09 PM

I would have to agree with Dirt that technology would have made the type of slave labor needed in agriculture obsolete. Why go to town in a wagon when you can ride in a truck.
I do believe we would be about 40 year behind in race relations. Would be like 1981.
Posted By: Dirt

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by loosegoose
Interesting. Several of the states stated that preserving slavery was the very reason they seceded. You think they'd have just given it up? They weren't just keeping slaves because they needed labor, they ere keeping them because they didn't view them as human. Advancements in machinery weren't going to suddenly make racists view blacks as human.


Yes, they kept blacks because they wanted labor. They were not pets. They may not have been as cost effective as cheap paid (not fed or housed or medically treated) labor. Cheap paid labor is what made the North an Industrial power.
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/06/21 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt
Originally Posted by loosegoose
Interesting. Several of the states stated that preserving slavery was the very reason they seceded. You think they'd have just given it up? They weren't just keeping slaves because they needed labor, they ere keeping them because they didn't view them as human. Advancements in machinery weren't going to suddenly make racists view blacks as human.


Yes, they kept blacks because they wanted labor. They were not pets. They may not have been as cost effective as cheap paid (not fed or housed or medically treated) labor. Cheap paid labor is what made the North an Industrial power.


You are correct, slavery comes with its own set of social and economic disadvantages that would have fundamentally doomed the practice. However the particular blinder in America's case being racial made the societal the cause de jure that obfuscated the economic detriment.

Even after emancipation the societal issue has remained to this day.
Posted By: Marty

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 02:01 AM

Django....
Posted By: loosegoose

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Marty
Django....

That's was a good movie
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Steven 49er
Originally Posted by Marty
the war of northern aggression which started the fall to where we are today.



While that may be true of the strong central government we have at present, without reunification neither country alone wouldn't have achieved what we have up to date and most likely neither country would still be around.

One of the best statements yet in this post! I would say that the men that fought on both sides were way grittier than the men of today. If someone directed me to run into a volley of flying lead, well, all they would have saw was an arsehole and 2 elbows going the other way.
Posted By: Boco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 03:11 AM

It wouldnt have been much of a choice.
Back in the day cowardice in the face of the enemy was punishable by summary execution right there.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 03:24 AM

If the South had won the war, slavery still wouldn't have survived to the 20th century. But blacks would have been treated as a subordinate, inferior race long past the civil rights era in the North.

For an alternate history novel where the South did win, try Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South.

Jim
Posted By: Pawnee

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 03:38 AM

Funny James the Democrats lost the war and have treated them as subordinates ever since. Good grief!
Posted By: Savell

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by J Staton
I would have to agree with Dirt that technology would have made the type of slave labor needed in agriculture obsolete. Why go to town in a wagon when you can ride in a truck.
I do believe we would be about 40 year behind in race relations. Would be like 1981.


.. excellent.. no gangsta rap or the Cosby show... ol Bill turned a few otherwise open minded gals into confederate sympathizers I’d imagine
Posted By: Posco

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 03:54 AM

Labor in the north wasn't cheap during the Civil War, quite the opposite. If you read material from the time, there was a fear emancipated slaves would flee north and drive labor rates down. The north had the advantage by already being highly industrialized by the time the war came around. The south depended heavily on blockade runners to get the goods they needed to sustain their war effort.
Posted By: Furvor

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 04:18 AM

New England controlled the federal government and were flexing their muscles. That was kinda like Cuomo pushing to change USA to United States of New York, except Cuomo lacks control of an army.
Posted By: beaverpeeler

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 04:19 AM

The north was already awash in cheap labor with the flood of foreign immigrants. Plus, they didn't need as much labor as the South since farms were smaller in the north.
Posted By: Paul Dobbins

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by James
But blacks would have been treated as a subordinate, inferior race long past the civil rights era in the North. Jim


Are you talking about the civil rights that the Democrats fought against, and it took the republicans to pass civil rights legislation? Or the republican, Abraham Lincoln that produced the Emancipation Proclimation? These facts seems to be overlooked.
Posted By: James

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 05:01 AM

In Lincoln's time, the Republican Party was the progressive party. The Democratic party was more of a regressive party--racist and segregationist.

Things have changed since the civil rights movement, and the two parties no longer fill the roles they once did.

I'm not a Democrat, so won't defend their history.

Jim
Posted By: Scout1

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 06:11 AM

Hank Jr. said "If the South would of won we'd of had it made!" Just saying???
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 08:31 AM

the fight wasn't over mistreatment of black people. it was fought to prevent slave states from becoming industrialized and manufacturing with slave labor. "free" states were afraid of being bankrupted. very few VERY few white people thought black people were their equal.
Posted By: jonesy

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Scout1
Taxes!!!! The North can claim slavery all it wants!

spot on
Posted By: jonesy

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:22 AM

75% of the worlds cotton was being shipped out of the southern ports and the north wanted a piece of that.. simple history
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:36 AM

“All men created equal”

“that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom”

Yup, that sounds like today’s Democratic Party. lol
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:46 AM

many christian churches of the day taught that africans were the sons of ham and enslavement of them was gods will

created equal was only for white people

lets not try to say our ancesters were something they were not

they were only people. for all their great accomplishments they still had faults. we can recognize both without diminishing their greatness
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
many christian churches of the day taught that africans were the sons of ham and enslavement of them was gods will

created equal was only for white people

lets not try to say our ancesters were something they were not

they were only people. for all their great accomplishments they still had faults. we can recognize both without diminishing their greatness




Are you a proponent of the great party switch, believing today’s democrats were the republicans of 1800 and today’s republicans were 1800 democrats?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 09:57 AM

I think this thread may indicate - as an example - why history is open to interpretation. The books we read, the articles we reference, and all of it, have been written by folks just like Tman'ers who hold "opinions." Do we think our ancestors didn't have them? Sure they did. Same as on here... facts, championed as the "truth," as seen through the eyes of the beholder.

When does Darwinism kick in on that process?



Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 10:03 AM

i dont know what the great switch is

republicans in 1860 could not have cared less about the hardship of being black in america. the party was run by industrialists. they were afraid that factories would be built in the south and slave labor used. which probably would have happened when the cotton gin was invented

democrats at the time did not pretend to care about american black people the way they do today if thats what your talking about. it was republicans who were the great pretenders where race was concerned. even after the constitutional change abolishing slavery, black americans were not equal under the law.

today democrats are still saying that anyone not white is incapable of taking care of themselves and their families without a babysitter called government
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 10:08 AM

lol
Posted By: mole

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 10:32 AM

Civel War came about by situations like this thread where everything was the fault of someone else . where no one could agree or give an inch on anything. much like this thread. England could not support slavery. England one of the souths biggest cotton customers. England went to Egypt and helped in the development of the Nile valley and got their cotton there which added to the woes of the South.
Posted By: warrior

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by mole
Civel War came about by situations like this thread where everything was the fault of someone else . where no one could agree or give an inch on anything. much like this thread. England could not support slavery. England one of the souths biggest cotton customers. England went to Egypt and helped in the development of the Nile valley and got their cotton there which added to the woes of the South.


Yet it was England that was the main culprit in establishing the African slave trade, then seeking to abolish it when it no longer served their purposes.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by James
In Lincoln's time, the Republican Party was the progressive party. The Democratic party was more of a regressive party--racist and segregationist.

Things have changed since the civil rights movement, and the two parties no longer fill the roles they once did.

I'm not a Democrat, so won't defend their history.

Jim

34% of abortions' in U.S. are black. While blacks make up only 13.4% of the U.S. population. The democrat party is a staunch defender of abortion.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Posted By: bearcat2

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by J Staton
I would have to agree with Dirt that technology would have made the type of slave labor needed in agriculture obsolete. Why go to town in a wagon when you can ride in a truck.
I do believe we would be about 40 year behind in race relations. Would be like 1981.

One could only wish. Race relations were a heck of a lot better in the 80s than they are now.
Posted By: HobbieTrapper

Re: What was the Civil War Fought Over? - 05/07/21 12:56 PM

“What Was The Civil War Fought Over?”


Educated whites thinking they were smarter than less educated whites.
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