A question I can't answer. Can you?

So I attend courses with a very intelligent gentlemen, D'Jaba from the east coast of Africa, whose village saved for four years to send him to American seminary. He's a very smart man. Very articulate speaker! Very. He's also a retired attorney in Gabon, his home in East Africa. He's probably 66 to 70 years old.

Each week, he and I study together and he asks me "one" question related to our America culture, which he's now been exposed to for 2+ years. I help explain us Americans to him as best I can.
This week's question from my brother D'Jaba was a stumper.
He asked me, "Mark, why do Americans place such great emphasis on "retiring" as if it's a destination in life? Is it?"

He says his people don't view life in phases as we Americans do, but rather as a continuous journey from birth to death. There are no "ports of call," like infant, adolescent, teen, young adulthood, adulthood, elderly, retired, etc.

I told him I think it's a goal more than a port of call and Americans love a good plan. We cheer a good plan. We urge a good plan.
D'Jaba is always squinting at me as I try to answer.
I don't have a good answer.
I tried but then D'Jaba asked me "Why do people want to get there (retired)?"
Heck if I know I told him.

Any helpful thoughts are appreciated!

Blessings,
Mark

Americans love freedom, at that point in life when your time isn't for sale anymore, when you reach that day of your time being your own, that's real freedom.

Can't help you, D'Jaba and I have the same question.

Ecclesiastes 5:18
I have seen what is best for people here on earth. They should est and drink and enjoy their work, because the life God has given them here on earrh is short.

I hope to work until I die.

You spend your life following the paths your told to follow for others to make a living and they give you a piece of the pie for a large chunk of your life in return, the harder or smarter you work the more you often will get for that chunk. During that time you give up the paths you really wanted to follow on your own be it family or leisure time.

You work/save until you start to get paid back for that plan at some point, be it retirement or less work more free time of your choosing to do whatever you want to do. The difference is is living day to day VS working towards a goal of self sufficient living or as close to that as you can get to that.

I’d ask your guy if he had the income coming in would he still be working everyday for someone else now?

I'm with waggle but I've always thought of my time and labor as my own and not belonging to others.

The idea of retirement is the idea of being free to spend the rest of your days as you choose and hopefully don't have to worry about money.

Sadly, the desire of the freedom of not having to worry about money is about the only freedom that nearly all Americans can agree on.

I can only answer for me. For me personally, work isn't life, it's just thing that interrupts my life that I have to do four days a week. It gets in the way.of more important things, namely time with my family. My work life and my home life are completely separate, when I walk out the door after clocking out I don't give the place a second thought until I walk in the next day. My kids just barely know what I do at work. They know I work on police cars, but that's about it. We don't talk about my day at work at home. Work is just to fund the things that actually matter in life. It's not a "calling" for me in the usual sense, it's just this thing I can do really well, and it pays the bills. I suppose I enjoy it, I certainly don't hate it. But I wouldn't do it for free, that's for sure.
When I'm retired, I'll have more time for the things in life that actually matter. Maybe back when children worked with their parents all day, like back before the industrial revolution, things were different. Work was life back then. And maybe that's still how it is in rural Africa. But here and now in our modern times, work just gets in the way of real life, and retirement means time for things that actually matter.

Here we go
In NEWT'S world look at this question is

Most people are stuck in a job they dont like.Cant wait to get out of it and live a life they want.But they have to have everything that the money will let them buy.Got'a keep up with the Jone's.
By the time they can retire, THE MAN has taken their best years. What dreams they had in their youth and middle age are gone.They are warn out.
Now as a old man. Most people has lost their get up and go.To busy worring about all the money they put away.

I have lived on the edge all my life. A big house,new truck and money in the bank never was my goal.
I earned enough to get by. Trapping,commercail fishing and boat building.Being my own man.Doing what NEWT wants to do.I am now old (70) cant get done what I youst to do in a day.
BUT this old body got wore out by ME.Not by some other persons wants out of me.

Salvation has been given to me.I'm at peice .My live is in GOD'S hands not mine. He will aways pervid what I need.

Yes. My desire is to redeem the years the locusts have eaten.

Definition is absolutely specific to each individual. Retirement for me is most certainly a destination, a true sense of freedom. If you have a set schedule and are expected to report to someone for work, you are in fact a servant. Long gone will be the days when I have to answer to any man and play his game of politics just to get that paycheck to provide a living for my family. I used to be proud to say that I've busted my back diligently maintaining a job since I was 13 years old. My jr and sr years of high school I left school at 3:00 every day and was clocked in at a factory by 3:30 until midnight five days a week and even worked overtime on most Saturdays. Now, we say here at work that we are the dumbest people in this country because we continue to come here during covid, during multiple government shutdowns when we weren't even getting paid. The smart ones are those getting the welfare/unemployment checks out there fishing and hunting every day they feel like it. I don't view work the same as I used to...…..

It’s just a label for folks who have reached a point where they don’t have to do anything they don’t want to.

Am I retired or am I a 58 year old who does what he wants to do when he wants to do it?

So u have the time to trap all day every day!

You can thank Pensions for the creation of that mindset.

I think it boils down to folks working at jobs that they do not enjoy. I make my living as an artist and trapper. If I were to retire I would do artwork and trap as my hobbies! I’m getting close to an age where I will take my SS but I will not retire until breath leaves my body.

Think of it as the sabbath. Instead of working 6 days and resting on the seventh; you work 60years and take 10 off.

In reality, though, it is a government conspiracy. It was a bribe for older workers to step down to make room for younger ones. A brand new concept from the mid 20th Century.

I like Newt's answer. Fit's me to a tee! I work, not for the money.....but for the oppertunity to make someone's life easier or better. The money collected is secondary. Been like this my whole life, and it has allowed me to go trapping every year, as I wanted. When I worked for someone, they were never the "man", they are a customer or client, who I care about. There is a difference there, and it's hard to describe! My problem, at 74, is I have too many hobbies, and most have turned into a job!

I'm in the freedom category.

So much to see and do that a person can't while holding a job.

This will be interesting thread to follow. My answer for myself is similar to Newts. But the question was why do Americans subscribe to this. Could it be the ppl who control this world have created this glittery illusion(retirement/freedom) to keep the masses nose to the grindstone(slaves) for a set amount of time(30 yrs)making them richer while the workers miss life's journey ? Pensions were mentioned ...yup give the controllers some of your pay for 30 years that buys your glittery promise/freedom/retirement. I have very little saved for retirement, who knows if I'll live till then. I have enjoyed the journey my way. If it's over tomorrow it was a good run, if I live another 20 yrs I'll keep enjoying it.

Spent the last several weeks turkey hunting I have been on call for the last 35 years no way I could do that before. Like said I gave my employers 100% but it always came down to this you can work 60 hours a week no problem but try to work 39 hours and your filling out paperwork looking for approvals then.

If you die today you will be replaced shortly down the road, way to many people live for the almighty dollar they are so stuck but won’t admit it, afraid to be on their own in the world.

KY Coyote Hunter nailed it.
Its all about achieving independence and the ability to engage in pursuits not tied to paying bills.
It is a time when we can do things we were never able to do when we were neccessarily working towards that financial independence,that independence being the ability to do whatever you choose,whenever you choose without sacrificing your standard of living by doing so .
It frees people from being slaves to having to earn money(It definitely does not preclude you from making money)
It does not surprise me that someone from Gabon cannot grasp the concept.

I'm ten years retired from my job of 38 years. I have a retirement and what I've been told is adequate savings to to see my wife and I through. But because I'm retired, doesn't mean I've quit working. I am probably as busy now as before I retired. But my work has changed. I spend more time with family. I am able to spend more time helping friends and neighbors and working in the community. My yard and garden have never looked better. I feel part of my new work is keeping myself fit. I have more time for things I really love doing, hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, a little golf. Because you retire shouldn't mean your out to pasture, waiting for the rest home. But I also believe, if you love your job and are happy with your life the way it is, why retire?

It’s the point when you quit trading your life in exchange for wants and needs.

I would say Americans realize that they need to pass on their responsibility to the next generation at some point.

I think it is much a result of the industrial age and industrialization of our culture.

however even prior to the industrial revolution , farmers would pass on the responsibilities of their farm to their children. as a man was accepting the physical limitations of age he was grooming his son(s), nephew or possibly grandson to take over his duties first physically then the decisions that needed to to go with the labor. so that as he was rounding out his final years he was an elder advisor who could be asked for their input and wisdom but when he passed his legacy was with his Heir , no power vacuum.


with the industrial revolution and not working for yourself or your family people much like serving their time like in the armed forces , did their duty to serving the company , the industry , their co-workers and passed on their duties before they died at their station one day.

it is some what our productivity model , face it we may be wise and know our job inside and out and find our efficiency in the knowledge but at some point in age we spend more and more time at the clinic dealing with our age and worn out body parts.



there is also as a result of the industrial revolution , the new deal helped with the idea of be a good productive American till an age X be it 60 ,62 , 65 , 67. giving people a reasonable end date lets them work hard till the get there knowing they can take it easy at that point.

yes that number was set so that it was very close to life expectancy , the average number of SS checks received used to be 9 I think it has gone up some , but you used to leave the line at say GM go home and take it easy and your heart attack killed you in just under a year.

not for everyone but for enough people.

there was a Chrysler worker interviewed several years back , he was 90 something and collecting his pension still he had worked for the plant 30 years and had been retired 35 most people don't live that long.

yes some of it is to get old workers out of the work force , some is to give people the set end of do this for X long and you can have the promise of retirement


we should all live every day enjoying it but that isn't the case for many they work a job they hate , you can see signs of the lack of moral when they are giving themselves and others the pep talk of Hump day , Pre Friday and a celebratory we made it to Friday. they Live for the weekend , 2 days to them then dread of Monday. they are probably also counting the days till they hit the magic 30 years and they have a promise of a forever weekend with some stability , health care , some income.

we do need to enjoy the journey

It's Friday , if you wonder were the week went you probably lived the journey

if it seemed like Monday was forever ago and the week dragged on your probably looking for the finish line.

One and done.

This is your answer.

Not really a bribe but a selling point so the government could capture money from individuals they figured would die before they collected a small portion of it back.

D'Jaba would already know the answers to his questions if he had worked for someone else all his life.

Retired from the railroad allows me to work with and help my community .

I loved my job, but they made it to easy to retire at 55 ( full pension and medical) since then I have worked 4 different jobs, worked a couple summers for computer hater, a merchandiser, in a box plant and construction. I liked all of those jobs and would work any of them again. Did I need to work “no” but I liked having something to do” a purpose”. I watched too many friends and colleagues retire early and sit around and die.I haven’t worked for 10 months and am getting antsy to go back to work.
Mark I think in your fellow students country the people like having a purpose and they keep on doing life. Also they don’t have the option of retirement, so they don’t understand retirement.
The thing about retirement is you can get a new job and quit anytime to do something else or : trap,hunt or fish if you want.

Years ago I over heard PA.Trapper Sumper say

" This aint no trial run.You got only one life to live"

I think americans do put emphasis on our destination, but retiring is a tuff part of our journey. Similar to planing a hunt in Alaska or sky diving ect. we put emphasis on that as well, but it's all part of the journey as well. So it is a major accomplishment in our journey.on earth. Retiring for many is the most exciting thing they've done others not as.

That last part about being replaced is as true as it gets. Ive had moments in my job that i think “man this job is important and i do this better than a lot of people and i am important”. That is all crap. Not one person on here isnt replaceable and in most jobs, someone is just waiting for you to leave so they can take your spot. Im growing to not care for my job much at all. Schedule and freedom are great though. Ill stick it out until i get that pension, which wont be enough to live off of and ill have to get something else to supplement. So to me, retirement is gonna be like starting right out if school. I wont make much money and the budget will be a lot tighter. I take every opportunity i can to talk young people out of goin into the career i chose.
Shouldve been a college baseball coach. Ever seen how old some college coaches are? Thats by their choice because they love what they do.

It is all about being in control of my time. I will retire next year. Ready but also a change in retirement benefits would cost me $100,00.00 in health benefits. If I do not retire I lose it. So I will be busy but on my schedule. I will be the best Mr. Phelps I can be to Mrs. Phelps she is my partner in everything and needs to come first for a change. I will sub at school, Was recently elected to town board, still coach softball and work with young future pitchers. OF course get to trap and hunt not as a fourth or fifth place thing.

I don’t know anything about the people of Gabon, but I’m pretty sure when a teenage Masai boy used to look forward to the day the MEN of the village would take him out to hunt lion with a spear to join the club and prove that now he is a man too, that was a “ port of call or destination “. Or the rituals of permanent scarring at a certain age, won’t get into the details of that one! Just like a nation or people can’t worry about environmental health and clean water and air unless there is surplus wealth. I imagine its real hard to think about goofing off 10, 20 years from now when you’re more concerned about whether you have enough to eat at the end of the week.
Just my $.02

Hoo-Rah!

Few people on their deathbed ever wish that they could have spent more time at work.

I had a good job that I liked, did it for nearly 37 years. Quit when I was 54.5. At the end of the day, you’re selling of your chunks of your life to an employer, two weeks at a time. My time is my own now, and am free to do as I please for the rest of my days.

didn't read through the whole thread yet (I will); but I'm close to retiring and looking forward to it.

for me (and others, I see)...it's about Freedom. It's about spending our remaining years doing what we WANT to do, instead of what we HAVE to do.

and quite frankly, I'm tired of putting up with the bs from people who haven't paid their dues "in the field", but got promoted because they are "Yes" men (and women).

and; I got a new grandson across the state...reason enough for me.

Mark, you cannot compare an apple and an orange except they are both fruit and a carb,

So I attend courses with a very intelligent gentlemen, D'Jaba from the east coast of Africa, whose village saved for four years to send him to American seminary. He's a very smart man. Very articulate speaker! Very. He's also a retired attorney in Gabon, his home in East Africa. He's probably 66 to 70 years old.

A village had to save 4 years to send an attorney to Seminary school. That would not happen in America. You cannot compare a third world country with a minimal economy to understanding our forma of capitalism and work effort. I have been in over 50 countries most of them 3rd world. Most third world countries do not have the economies to support a SSN system and retirement (meager).

The bigger problem is American do not understand 3rd world economies, governments or their issues. What I have seen is being able to survive in a third world country is a day to day struggle, just to eat and survive. We "ugly Americans" do not understand that. We all hit the lottery being born here. so his answer is simple.


Why do so many people want to migrate to the USA? is it just so they can retire some day? i do not see many Americans standing in line to go live in 3rd world undeveloped nations. What would Jesus think. of America, would he look at it as Rome, with privledged citizen, with rights and standards of living above a bedowan with a couple of camel living in a tent without running water.

One thing most people in third world nations do have over us and that is time to think. How many attorneys do you know, need a village to send him to seminary school.

I didn't read any of the responses and don't have exact answer , but consider this

I think the good Lord instructed us to work and work more than most Americans care to

His plan for man included an end game in heaven not a plan to lay up treasure for thy self .

I'm not saying anyone who works hard to quit working shouldn't , I'm just saying these are things to think about .

because most Americans are lazy and want to get/stay fat and content while sitting on the couch and eating cheetos...like dipstick.

Why do “Americans” look forward to retirement?

Why would anyone want to work until they die?

What are we actually calling “work”? Is work your “job” or are we referring to “work” as staying busy after retirement?

And I guess we need to know what is meant by “retirement”? Apparently my definition is different from some on here.

To ME, retirement is getting the allotted time approved by my company to be able to quit and take their pension and not have to report in every day.

Did I “pick” this job when I was a child? Nope, never crossed my mind. Learned a little something with Uncle Sam that just happened to qualify me for my present job. Present job is a very decent job that’s allowed me to buy my own home, raise a family, buy multiple vehicles for wife and family, and offers a decent pension and contributes to my 401K. I’m able to take trips during vacation times I’m able to pick with my present job. I’m basically able to do most anything I want financially.

Now, if I’m able to do the things I want financially if I didn’t work, why would I work? Retirement is putting in that time, saving that money (while still enjoying life), and hopefully one day get up when I want, take trips when I want, and only have the house “boss” to answer to.

Now, I do have plans for when I retire. I’m not one to “waste away” on a couch. In fact, every boss I’ve had says I’m the only employee that ever comes off vacation that needs a vacation to recover, lol. Imagine the money that could be made by being able to run 2-3 farms trapping when that’s all you have to do! Imagine how many turkey trips that would pay for without even touching your retirement money! Imagine the time you could spend with kids and grandkids. Imagine the time you devote to your community or church.

Some might say you could still do that while working, but if so something is going to be left out. Not enough time working 40-60hrs a week, unless you’re trying to kill yourself at a young age.

I’m working towards retirement and will be dang proud of myself when I reach that milestone.

You know henpecked1, you have good points here. He's not from a culture that monetarily rewards attorneys but still requires much formal education of them. He attended law school in England. D'Jaba has an uncanny way of getting this US of A'er dude to think deeper. His questions and his mannerisms are hard to explain but he's a treat to chat with because his linguistic heritage is to put the main theme in the 1st part of your first sentence. No prepping the paragraph to get to what you want to say. Say it!

Some of his first sentences have been;
"Why do Americans put their old people in other people's homes?"
"Why are Americans not more inviting to others who have less than they do?"
"When do Americans honor their ancestors?"
"What are boys trained in to assist women?"

You see? Deep thinking culture. That's why I only allow him one question per week! He's good at in-depth and I tell him my culture raised me to think inch deep, mile wide.
We teach each other.
He has hunted lions often. I need to take him on the coyote trap line.

Blessings,
Mark

Sounds like he doesnt know much about America or has a lot of misconceptions about her.

Retirement is still work without the weekend to look forward to, the good and bad part is you have time to do those jobs without work getting in the way. Like said many people just want to get paid today I had some youngins pretty much think after 4 years of partying at collage the work part of life was over for them.

Trying to find someone to work overtime is tough now but they want the 4 day work week for more time off, the job is not any priority today for many. With a smaller crew on the 4 day work week you have less fill in people to fill overtime slots then.

The one thing that always true about work if your willing to keep doing more they will let you.

Had a good friend tell me shortly after his retirement-"I have lost my identity",another asked after I retired-"Do you find enough to do"
The poem, The Man In The Glass, describes the man that looks forward to retirement because he has an identity and more than enough to do,
because he is his own friend,not controlled,defined, or limited by a job. I set a retirement goal of catching a PA fisher-not a lofty goal for some,but was my
goal. I caught a fisher two years ago as a result of hours of scouting and trail cameras-something that I could not do when working because of other
obligations taking that time. I'm very thankful to be retired-my goal was to set my own schedule-which I do every day.

Is it because a lot of folks work for the paycheck in a job they don't necessarily enjoy and are glad when that part of their life is done instead of choosing a line of work they enjoy.

"Why do people want to get there (retired)?"

Part of it may be that the old American dream. It is not a good or realistic or plausible dream any more but I think a lot of folks have clung to it.

Back in the 70s I read a book written by a well known author that had interviewed a number of folks in various professions. It was an interesting read for anyone interested in human behavior, or sociology. As I recall, it seems most of the folks interviewed were satisfied with their work and found their work fullfilling.

In the last twenty to thirty years, actually more, I honestly believe the majority of Americans' attitudes have greatly changed towards work. I would not care to guess at the percentage of people that are simply unhappy in their work, and a majority hate what they do.

None of my opinions are based on “scientific data” that I have researched. It is based on empirical evidence of observations, and reading a lot.

A great number of people that I have talked to in my work life have not been happy with their work. When I worked as a carpenter which I did for many years, most carpenters and concrete folks that I talked to were not all that happy with their work. Most wished they could do something else.

When I worked in the field of education, which I did for a good many years, it was the same thing, and I admit I was surprised. But teaching certainly has its difficult aspects, and it is much more difficult work than all the armchair expert quarterbacks think.

Now I work part time in the code enforcement and plumbing inspection field. It is slightly better but the majority of workers are overwhelmed by having to deal with the public and the political aspects of the job. It is difficult work, not real physical but tiring. And the majority feel undervalued and underpaid.

I think many feel that they are stuck doing what they are doing. I think most are afraid to change to something they might enjoy. Look at the millions and millions made by the motivational gurus and business gurus promising that if you buy whatever magic they are selling, be it a new business opportunity, a new outlook on life etc. you can become rich and happy. How many ads have you seen of folks making outlandish claims and promises?

Why are so many of these motivational or business sales people so successful? Because they are selling the idea of success and happiness to a very large and never ending and growing population of people that are not happy in their work.

Maybe what I have described as my theory of why folks look forward to retiring, but it basically boils down to them not liking what they do, and thinking they will be happy when they no longer have to do it.

What is the old saw? Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. I think folks mistakenly think that when they no longer have to work, they will be set. With the ever increasing cost of living, and the fact that a large majority cannot save money, many are in for a sad and rude awakening.

In a way, this type of living reminds me of some religions that feel that individuals can put up with a lot of suffering because they will the reward in the afterlife.

I like the Toltec wisdom that suggests that we create heaven or (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) right here, and the choice is ours.

I am retired from carpentry and teaching but I choose to work. I like to work and I like to make money. I grew up in a very very poor family. I never suffered from the silver spoon syndrome. I could probably retire-retire but I do not. This new work requires a lot of continuing education, and I like learning. I like a challenged and nearly every day finds a challenge of some sort. While my body is pretty beat up I am blessed with pretty good health. I do not trap as hard as I thought I might when I retired but it is what it is.

In some ways I wish I had chosen to live a life that Newt described, but being married was a large reason I did not follow the wilder path. My hat is off to Newt, JT and others that dared to live the life they dreamed of.

Got a bit off track, but these are my thoughts.

Some of his first sentences have been;
"Why do Americans put their old people in other people's homes?"
Sounds rather judgemental of something he really does not understand

"Why are Americans not more inviting to others who have less than they do?"
Sounds like a Democrat. Probably had his undergraduate and law school paid for by others too.

"When do Americans honor their ancestors?"
How does he know that they do not?

"What are boys trained in to assist women?"
Have you ever studied how the majority of Africans treat their women? I would guess not.

“You see? Deep thinking culture. “
Maybe

“That's why I only allow him one question per week! He's good at in-depth and I tell him my culture raised me to think inch deep, mile wide.”

You are probably one of the one percenters from what I have read about your pharmaceutical career in sales, so I know you think a lot deeper than that. Plus you are smart enough to figure out how to make money in the trapper game when the market is horrible. Come on Bud.

THE FREEDOM TO USE YOUR TIME AS YOU WISH. This is the answer. I retired 2 years ago. I wanted to work another year and a half. I just couldn't put up with the corporate bureaucratic b.s. any longer. I liked my job. It just wasn't worth it anymore for me to trade my time at that time to put up with the bureaucracy anymore. And that is happening in a lot of corporations nowadays. I don't have a bucket list. Just wanted my own time and schedule. People ask me all of the time what I am doing in my retirement. I tell them I do two things mainly: 1. Nothing. 2. Whatever I want whenever I want. Don't need cruises, don't need to travel all over Europe, etc. But if I want to spend November and December calling coyotes, I can and will. Nuff said.

Retirement is a relatively short cultural issue for US citizens. Up until and after WW11 most workers did not live long enough to retire or by being self employed etc. they slowed down but did not retire. Even post WW11 most worked until 65 as they needed the income and many only lived to the early to mid 70s. That is one aspect it is a relatively new desire in a 250 year old nation.
Also I feel or believe we in the US (more so) but also many western wealthier nations have now funds to live while not working so retirement is an attractive goal. Here in the USA we also tend to segment our life ling probably more than many societies do. We have many starting and stopping phases in our life lines, that are quite short term goal oriented and many of those may not align well with later life or long term goals. It is very hard for many to live for today exactly the way they want too and plan for a long term goals or out comes. Many don't realize they have made decisions now and in the past that severely limit the long term outcomes. Also it is much easier and less burdensome to find yourself in a bad place and blame others for your plight then to make those decisions and live with those consequences. Affluence and wealth do allow for a much larger margin of error when making decisions, where as in lower income regions or families one does not get many chances if any. Americans probably more so then any culture enjoy having others do every day chores and tasks for them, thus house cleaning staff, room cleaning staff, lawn mowing firms, restaurants serving meals and doing dishes etc. Many look at these as rewards for working and some look at is as status issues, some both.

Bryce

Why are folks making something so simple out to be so complicated??????????????????? FREEDOM. No matter how much you love what you do your time is not your own. You have an OBLIGATION to be there.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Diverse input. Appreciate it.
I'd push back on those of you on this forum who seem to suggest my brother is not "enlightened" in ways you think he should be.
Some even go so far as judge who the man is and why he thinks the way he does, or his culture that I would guess you have no experience with. That's interesting.

I respect a man from another country who sincerely seeks to understand someone different than they are.
I wish a heck of a lot more people would try it.
I sense most of you would enjoy the types of conversations D'Jaba and I have.

Blessings,
Mark

I have never looked at putting in a good days work as something that was threatening my freedom, maybe that is why so many people dislike their jobs and those that do work as they look at the job and workers as persons willing to sacrifice personal freedom due to working. Starting from where I came from working and education moved me toward freedom, not away from freedom.

Bryce

I haven't read all the posts here yet, but you know what the next step after retirement is don't you?

Very interesting read.

Clearly, even Americans don't understand the origins of retirement. Yeah, they do want to quit their job, and live some soft life that will probably kill them.

Tell your Third World friend that retirement is the American way. Accept it as our culture. The first rule of sociality, the science of studying cultures is not to judge!!!

I'd be surprised if not judging is not somewhere in that God culture of yours, too.

For me, retiring from my long-time profession gave me freedom to pursue a second career doing something I liked better.

Jim

I can read from this that many haven’t put away for the future and therefore must work to survive. I personally haven’t met a person yet that could make more money retired and still keep working. I guess if your goal is to leave a legacy for your children you might. I wasn’t raised that way and didn’t raise my kids that way. Financial advisors are actually pretty decent folks and can let you know when it’s time. Had a buddy recently retire that is now drawing more than he was working, lol.
My dad retired from the military and then turned around and retired from the DOD. He and my mother are never home, lol. They’re traveling with no timeline. No one to answer to. No one that is dependent on them, except their outside cat, which I feed when they’re gone. They are retired and do what they want when they want.
Is there anyone on this site that’s still working and can take a month long vacation then come back home for a couple weeks and head out someplace new for another month and repeat as you desire? If so, please tell me your occupation. I get about 6 weeks of vacation but after that I’m working the rest of the year. But, when I retire, I’ll be able to do just that.

Or perhaps he comes from a culture where value doesn't have to be reduced to a number.
Sometimes the worth of a good or service doesn't have to be assigned a numerical value.

Or perhaps he comes from a culture where value doesn't have to be reduced to a number. Sometimes the worth of a good or service doesn't have to be assigned a numerical value.

After driving to work 4 hours, one way, twice a week for 38 years, because I work but do not want to live in a big city. You want to provide for the family as best you can and for the insurance. Retirement is looking forward to the day to be able to trap or hunt for more than during a week of vacation and to be with your family for more than 2 or 3 days a week.

Mark, this is what I would tell him: Because Americans mostly worship themselves. We are not really a Christian culture in any sense except as a disappearing formality. In every practical sense, our culture is utterly humanist and self-serving. When a man worships himself, he worships his desire and preference. The human body is inherently lazy, especially when paired with a corrupt mind. For a lazy man, "not working" is the illusion of paradise. Ancient cultures like the Greeks indulged their laziness through slaves, servants, caste systems etc. We do it through the social safety net, regulated labor and retirement. Our prosperity has made it possible to normalize things that hardly exist in the 3rd world, or for most of history. I'm very grateful for the economic blessings that enable this expectation, but I hope I don't let modern convenience too strongly inform my worldview.

The Lord created men to tend the garden, til the ground, dominate the earth and species, multiply and build, sow, reap, and steward. For me work is a gift, role, and duty from the Lord, and I hope that financial stability never leads me to forget it.

Im self-employed and to be honest, never even think much about retirement. I love what I do and figure on working til the day I drop dead or cant do it anymore, then I will be someone elses problem. If I am in good enough health I wont take SS early and keep on working as long as I can.

Very good questions. Maybe America's work habits is what made her the greatest nation on earth. Putting old folks in care facilities is a bad sign though.

Ask D'jaba why he came to America to study rather than another 3rd world country.?

I know why he came to America Gary. The seminary he and I attend (and students from 88 other nations).
Same reason the Chinese and Rwandan and Ethiopian and Russian and on and on came to this particular seminary which still teaches a non-denominational orthodoxy (traditional) Christianity of the one, holy, catholic (universal) Apostolic Church. There's but a handful of these seminaries left in the world 300 years after the Enlightenment period. Sadly, most seminaries have integrated to the culture around them over that span of time.

KeniaKid, as always, you have a very strong answer and it seems pretty darn accurate. You have a solid lens on life and your answers are worth reflecting on. Thanks.
TRex, kind of a pointed answer brother trapper. Seems a bit judgmental as you warn others of being judgmental. Don't walk the liberal's path. Libs (philosophy, not political) like to paint their opposition with the lens of color they think.
My friend in the faith, a man I never met before 2019, has had an interesting life, and isn't judging us. He's asking. There is a difference and I am not intimidated by inquiring minds. I think it shows interest. He doesn't tell me how Americans outta live. He ask me "why" we live the way we do. Heck, most of it, I never thought much about before. I've never aimed at retirement as a destination but realize many do. My wife is one who uses the "retire someday" imagery often, and I have no idea what that is to be honest. Retire? From what?

So I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'll share many of these with D'Jaba.
I also ask him about Gabon. Some ways of his culture seem similar to me and some things (men rearing boys after age 6) that are foreign as can be. For instance,"D'Jaba, what do you do when there's no husband in the home?"

We go back and forth a lot. All good.

Blessings,
Mark

Now were supposed to feel guilty for retiring? The reason Gabon is still a third world country where such things are not common is the average IQ is 64. In the United States an IQ of less than 70 is considered mentally retarded and qualifies for S.S. disability.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/en/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country

There is one Man on here who lives life that way... I hunted with him. Heck of a Guy!

Where in this world did you come up with your thesis danny? I mean your first sentence.
The 2nd sentence isn't worth responding to since I'm not in the habit of judging other people's mental status.
I realize you'll stand upon your statement however since it's a Google find. You might also Google how incredibly useless and worthless IQ tests are.

Kinda funny Mark they keep on re-doing the IQ thing and keep coming up with the same results. Google countries ranked by wealth. Pretty close to the avg IQ list. Another reality people dont like so they just disregard it

Good answer.

I'm not arguing IQ may be linked to accumulating wealth. Guess then we'd have to dive in and clarify what wealth is. Cash is a common answer of course.
Some would argue that into this world I came naked, and naked from this world I will leave >>>> so then what does wealth look like?

For me I was lucky, for the most part I always enjoyed the job I was doing. I was getting paid to learn, even jobs that I did not enjoy I was learning, how not to supervise or that I did not want to do that kind of job the rest of my life. I learned a lot of skills that I used throughout my life. I did like most always miss being at home to raise my kids and tend to my homestead. One day finally got a nest egg, paid off all debts and was done with it. been retired for all most 12 years and some days miss the jobs I worked at over the years. I am busier now or at least as busy as I have always been, so never really retired, just working for me now. I really feel folks that retire and sit on a couch most of the time miss life and have wasted life.

actually, wealth is almost directly related to how Free a society is.

that's why we're losing ours.

Am I correct to summarize that freedom is a theme here?

I guess for me, it is. my great, great, great, great grandfather came to this country as a lad in 1742. his grist mill was burned to the ground by the Tories. as a forty-something year old, he joined the county militia to fight the British. guess some of it rubbed off.

Mark, keep in mind (before you answer your friend) that we at T-Man are an odd bunch; and do not (even FAINTLY) resemble the norm in America.

VERY skewed sample, my Friend!

I remember a religious bunch that came to America to study and ended up flying planes into buildings. They didn't like Americans being prosperous and happy. Ya never know what someone is thinking but worldwide America seems to be generally disliked.

Now you went and done it white marlin. Now you went and dooooone IT!
You are gonna get a gaggle of PMs making you realize that if everybody was like _______, this world would be a perfect place.

I’m a believer in that retirement allows financial freedom to do what you want when you want. You work to save enough to allow that freedom in retirement. Often times, people continue to work during retirement but it’s at something they enjoy/believe in and money is no longer the driving force. It’s more about personal satisfaction.

It sounds like your buddy D’jaba retired from being an attorney. Ask him why. It also sounds like he had a whole village saving up for what he wanted to do/believes in. Maybe he doesn’t understand the concept of financial freedom because he got it given to him by his village.

It's the rest of the world that's odd, not us!

To keep a goal in front of people otherwise no one would want to work in corperate america.

JMO but 2 things always make me happy. 1 is money in the bank and 2 is not givin a rats red rear end what society thinks of me or how I live

Absolutely Lefty. Money can't buy happiness but it can make misery more enjoyable.
The only thing that upsets me is people driving in the left lane that won't get outta the way.

Tailgaters don't bug you? What's your secret?

They can't keep up with me.

He is still an attorney and the guy is VERY intelligent. One of the sharpest men I've ever met. He tells me that interestingly in Gabon, what we'd call pro bono work, is routinely done so attorneys aren't an elite of any sort. Unless they have cabinet positions with the government officials.
I have no comment to that. Just the way they do it.

To keep a goat in front of people otherwise no one would want to work in Gabon.

Jeff Bezos is on track to be the world's trillionaire but he ranks low on the philanthropic scale. God encourages us to be wise stewards and to make sound investments but also cautions.

Luke Chapter 12

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Well said.

Most very wealthy people or families have no plan to try and take their wealth with them. There are multitudes of ways for the wealthy to ensure that their wealth can continue on, be used for charitable causes, create foundations etc. etc. Bezos total wealth may not be finalized as of yet due to finalizing divorce settlements and why would he establish generosity and get blasted by millions who feel his causes are wrong? He can continue to invest as he has and create even more for the future after he is gone and not have to deal with the negativity of many.

Bryce

Where do I sign up?

The average life span in Gabon is 66.19 years. I suspect that is another reason people dont retire there

danny, I think you missed the point about inquiring minds wanna know. Curiosity isn't a bad habit or trait is it?
He could Google all of it for sure. Some on here do it all the time.
But some of us still sit outside the filling station and talk about things we have experience in.
Right or wrong.


Blessings,
Mark

i cant answer a question can you?

I guess then Mark you dont have the heart to tell your friend the truth. I suspect he has it figured out already. An attorney of retirement age, without the means to travel to the U.S. and attend seminary, (isnt that retirement) without taking the savings of an entire group. He understands retirement better than you do. Probably feels guilty for taking their money. Might be he thinks you need to feel guilty for being born in a wealthy country.


I want to know why you would make a post like this. You certainly are not seeking answers to your questions. You get upset when you dont hear what you want to hear.

You remind me of a used car salesman. Always trying to control the narrative to get people to your goal. when someone wont be led you act offended.

P.S. I dont feel guilty for the fact that my ancestors built a country where retirement is possible. I dont feel guilty that my neighbors look forward to it rather than never even have dreamed of the possibility.