Christians: Do good works matter?

On another thread Loosegoose posted, "Christ is king, salvation comes through faith and not works, and we can all agree on that." I didn't want to derail that thread, so am starting this one.

Is LG right? I think not. I'm now an agnostic, but was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and that's not what the Church teaches. Good works do count (but not without faith).

The salvation-through-faith-alone belief is a license to do anything. You can do anything at all, if you believe Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago.

I'm curious how many individuals believe in faith alone. Do you ignore good works? If not, what role do you believe good works in this life will have on your afterlife?


Jim

Can you not even spell Christians right....hey where's them checks your supposed to be giving out?

You're right, I made a mistake. Thanks for the free spell check.

Jim

James, read John 3:16. All you have to do is TRULY believe. Good works make you a better person.

Nothing will help your cause, dipstick.

Faith alone provides salvation. That's what the Bible teaches as I understand it. Works are the product of a heart that is seeking God's path for their life. I believe there will be an account for what we did with the blessing we received in Heaven. A person who sins intentionally and thinks they are saved because they believe they have accepted the saving grace of Jesus has only superficially accepted Jesus or in other words their rebirth isn't sincere.

In other words good works are a byproduct of salvation. Kind of like if your a trapper your truck smells like skunk not if your truck smells like a skunk your a trapper.

Good works to the faithful
Are just normal things that need done
And we do them without a big fanfare
Just normal like

You should try it James

Good response, Yes sir. My son tells me much the same thing. If you've truly accepted Jesus, you try to walk in His path. (My words.)

Jim

God robs you of any idea that works will aid you in your search for salvation at the outset. After the old things have passed away and all things have become new, then one is equipped to do good works.

on another note...what happens to Hindus who don't believe in reincarnation?

Yes Sir said it better than I could
I'm kinda plunt

I don't follow that, Posco. We have to await the Second Coming to do good works?

Jim

Your words work for me. I'm a sinner by nature (and a pretty good one part of my life) still struggle with the same temptations but the closer I walk with the Holy Spirit the uglier those sins look to me. But the worldly me is still there if I don't walk close with my Savior regularly.

I'm saying works have no bearing on being saved, it's quite the opposite. Human nature tends to strive to merit salvation, we want to bring something to present before God to justify ourselves. God will have none of that.

Same thing that happens to the one that believe in it.

the corollary that you can "earn" your way to heaven by your works is absolutely NOT true, according to MANY references in the Bible.

So good works accomplish nothing for your immortal soul?

Jim

They still get reincarnated, they just don’t get to choose as what.

if that's all you got, you're screwed.

Nice demonstration of Christian humility.

Jim

GOD (Good orderly direction) or Just do the next right thing. If a strong faith in the father, son and holy spirit work on improving my behaviors and I treat others as I would like to be treated then that faith is a positive belief for me. On the other hand if believing allows me to do as I wish, when I wish to whom I wish may well be why now over 50% of our population choose not to be a member of any organized religion and will seek the faith they need on their own.

Bryce

James

I truly believe if you read and studied the Bible (and through out any perceived ideas) you would be intrigued by the message of the New Testament, even from a secular perspective, on how it deals with human nature and over lapping structure thought all scripture. You might even want to listen to a good apologetic to help you see and understand the themes in the word as the way they thought and wrote back then is a little hard for us Westerners to understand. Even if you took Christ out of the story the message is very applicable to human nature.

For a non believer you always try to stir things up.
I don’t believe in ghost and I do not try to aggravate those who do, keep quite.
Satan is always working thru people to keep things stirred up.

Christians do good works.
Good works will not save you, sinners can do good works.
Saved by grace thru faith

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

This is the Bema seat of Christ where all who have been saved will actually receive their reward for earthly works. Some will have many crowns and some only a few. It is by faith we are saved but it also says in Titus this "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."

I believe good works are important and a Christian will want to do good when Spirit filled. LLL

I do believe there will be rewards for your good works in Heaven but I haven't studied it enough to be 100% sure on it or to feel comfortable to try and explain it.

even though i am a confirmed heathen i still like the music.

While we are on this subject

Sin is short term pleasure traded for long term consequences. And ive seen most of the consequences first hand. Our heavenly Father isn't against joy but he knows the consequences out weigh the pleasures and wants to protect us from them.

Danny

Great songs. I listen to Hank sing that about once a month. I also really enjoy Allen Jackson singing the old Church songs. Joey Feek is also worth listening too.

God loves us so much he had Jesus die for our sins. We do good works because we love him. Good works do not help us get to heaven, we get there by grace alone. WE aiso do good works to show non believers what God's love has done in our lives.

Ephesians Chapter 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James,
I was raised Catholic too, the good works the Catholic church teaches, is to reduce the amount of time spent in Purgatory.
Works as a whole shows ones Faith and does not lead to salvation.

As the author of James (James, Jesus' brother) wrote in his Epistle in chapter 2......14 What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.

18 But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't recall a scriptural reference to a "purgatory"...

well they sure can't hurt and it makes it a better place to be

yes it takes faith but good deeds and works were clearly taught

however in the very early church merely being identified as a Christian was a death sentence. so faith had to be enough if you would be killed for charitable acts tied to Christianity. If you were born a cripple , no sight no legs , no eyes , no hands but could hear the word and had faith it would be enough , charitable acts would be quite hard

you could tie it back to the camel through he eye of a needle parable deeds alone can not be enough if their is no faith , a rich man could do or hire much more numerous deeds than a cripple but if the cripple believes it is enough.

Isn’t this a difference between Catholic and non Catholic Christians? Deeds vs Faith?

^^^ this.

muzzies believe if they kill an infidel they get bonus points.....dipstick hated that Trump would not let radical muzzies into the USA. What does that mean?

Catholics take 1 Corinthians and a teaching in Matthew and define purgatory as a separate place that occurs after death and before heaven. It is also mentioned in Macabes in the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Bible has other books that the Christian Bible does not have. The reason being is during Canonization of the Bible it was determined that books like Macabes does not meet the qualifications.

I forget the greek word or root word Catholics use to define Purgatory.

That depends on the motivations behind the good works.

The Bible says, "Faith without works is dead". You can't have one and not the other. They go hand in hand. People say they "believe" or "have faith" all the time, but by their works(actions) they aren't living as a true Christians, which isn't acceptable in God's eyes.

So if a person does good works, that's commendable, but God requires more than just good works to be looked upon favorably.

The thieves on the cross with Jesus are a perfect example of what you are describing.

Only read the "topic" because you are are in my egnore this idiots list....
But we are only saved by grace

And it goes to show by believing and asking for forgiveness you too can be in Paradise like the thief on the right of Christ. James, get that heart straight. And when you do and come down south for your smallie flyfishing trip, we'll hook you up in a Church of Christ. While visiting there, dancing with rattlers in your left hand, copperheads in your right, taking shots of strychnine, we'll see how Faithful you really are!!!!

My neighbor down the road is a Jehovah's witness and hes told me good works ARE what's going to get him into Heaven. Don't know much about the JW's, but seems to me by talking to him that their rendition of Heaven only allows a certain amount of people and he's trying to do enough good works to "bump" someone out of a spot.
I was raised in a Lutheran Church my faith is giving me salvation through Christ. Good deeds are what my parents taught me to do as a good human being, just part of your every day Life.

I just try to be a good human, I have learned being helpful and kind (good works) has always felt better than mean and hateful. My personal failure is my trigger, I like to think it's a hard pull to the mean angry me. Turning the other cheek is something I need to work on, perhaps.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith alone. Works don't save us. But it also teaches that faith without good works is dead, and that our good works result from our salvation. So, in other words, our good works are the result of, and the proof of, our salvation. If we claim to be saved but don't have good works, our salvation is dead. Our salvation brings forth good works, not the other way around.

Dare I even wade into this James because your first sentence question inquiry is then spiced heavily with your doctrine on the second sentence?
If your desire is genuine, there's been 500 years (and more) of church history between the clarifications (95 Thesis - Protestant and Council of Trent - Roman Catholic) and it can be outlined quite clearly.
If your desire is to stay plopped upon your inaccurate theology, then I'd prefer not to wade in sir.

As an aside, Protestants and Roman Catholics worship the same God according to basic orthodoxy in the history of the Church. Cults and aberrant religions as they are called, do not.
That's a key because Protestants and RC's can start from a theology the cults and aberrations can not. Cults and aberrants worship a different God according to Apostolic teachings of the Catholic (Universal) Church commissioned beginning in Acts 2.

Blessings,
Mark

James, now that I think about your question more, I think I may have a better answer. You mentioned that the "salvation through faith alone" doctrine is a license to do anything. Paul teaches in Romans 5 and 6 the exact opposite, though. At the end of Romans 5 Paul talks about how where sin abounds, grace abounds more. Then at the beginning of Romans 6, Paul asks your question......should we keep on sinning, so that grace may increase? In our get words, is it okay to sin, even though we're saved through faith alone, since God's grace will just take care of our sin? He answers the question by saying "by no means!! We have died to sin,how can we continue in it any longer?" Meaning that we Christians were once slave to sin and it's forces, but we are set free from that through Christ's salvation. That's why our faith produces good works..... because we are longer slaves to sin. If we are not saved and are still slaves to sin, we won't have the good works to show for it. The salvation produces good works in us.

So no, "salvation in faith alone" isn't a license to do anything we want, rather "salvation in faith alone" is a license and a motivation to do good works.

As far as what role good works play in the afterlife.....the bible teaches that we will be rewarded and/or punished for our works here on earth, that we will have to give an answer for what we've done. But that's not what produces salvation.

Faith and repentance are joined twins. Without one the other will die. So which came first, many places says repent and believe. However if a lost person is in his seat and steps in the isle to go forward to the altar, its actually by faith he takes that first step to go repent of which is already in his heart.

However if you believe you are chosen from the beginning and constantly take short cuts, you will most likely end back up at the pig pen.

Another thing about works and particularly bad works is that people are inclined to hold what a kids parents did against them. That thought right there sets my teeth on edge and I don't have any, lol. Children are only responsible for their fathers sins if they do them.

As far as purgatory goes the Jews would place there dead parents in a place for 11 months and I think plus 1 day (been awhile since I studied this) and let the meat rot off the bones and they thought that had a cleansing effect for the soul. Each day and I think maybe more than once a day they they would go to the site and pray for the deceased the whole time the body was decomposing. Its popular thinking that this was for the living and was completing a grieving process. For parents it was an a more constant process than say for a cousin which they wouldn't pray as often. Then at the end of the 11 months (and I'm not studied up on Jewish months etc.) they would gather the bones and put them in a tomb with the other dead. It was a long process and when the follower told Jesus he would follow Him but first must bury his father, Jesus told him to let the dead bury there own dead.

I'm sure I don't remember every little tidbit here but just gives you an idea so you can get started for your own study.

It's more difficult to put into words than one would imagine... The old saw "One hand washes the other" is about the simplest way to put it.

The Widow's Mite is another way to look at it too... Her contribution was insignificant compared to the amount of money the rich were giving... But her conviction to give all that she had showed where her heart was.

Conviction and faith come first. Good works are a natural byproduct of faithful conviction. If you're already someone who does good works then you've got the easy part down... The faith is the hard part. It takes a lot of faith to give up your worldly goods and place your well-being entirely in God's hands.

One is a product of the other and vice versa.

Mike

Mark, I see James' questioning every so often as one who is genuinely interested and is nearing salvation. I might have a biased opinion because that's how I was before salvation. I questioned and compared Catholicism to Christianity for years.
Well said.
The faith part can be extremely hard. Jook at how many examples Jesus gave us just in the Gospels of having faith, dying to self, giving up worldly goods, doing good works etc...

We are saved by grace (free gift) through faith, and not of works.

Why not of works? Because we believe that everything necessary to accomplish our salvation was done in and through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, evidenced by His resurrection.

Once saved, now what? Romans 8 says we are being conformed to the image of His Son- Jesus Christ. What was the earthly pattern of His life? That of a servant- doing "good works" for others.

Ephesians 2:10- We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works, that we should walk in them. After salvation, we are his masterpiece, each of us sculpted and molded to His plan, to accomplish good works. "Good works" can only be determined and qualified by God Himself. If we do something, in order to gain something else, it is no longer a "good" work. This is why learning of Jesus' life shows us true agape love, and what manifests itself as a good work for the kingdom. "That we should walk in them" means it is a pattern of life, not an occasional highlight along the way.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. What is the fruit that Identifies what kind of a tree it is? In a Christian's life, it is the evidence of good works, and according to this verse, it is the "zealous" pursuit of them.

Back to James- true faith is evidenced by good works. Faith without good works, is a dead faith.

Where does that put each of us in self examination?

I think it may be difficult to come to a consensus on a topic like this in this kind of venue for several reasons. The first being simply the number and diversity of the people conversing and their personal backgrounds. Two thousand years of church history also indicates a lack of complete agreement on these kinds of issues. The apostolic letters in the Bible itself should also expose the existence of disagreements within the church from the very beginning. That being said, one of Paul’s main points in all of his letters is unity. We can be united in Christ even if we don’t agree on every theologically debatable issue.

This brings me to another problem I have in attempting to adequately address this issue. With 2000 years of history and tradition yielding such a diversity of views and interpretations, I’m not convinced we’re all on the same page when it comes to the basic storyline, intention, or meaning of the Bible (here I guess I’m assuming that this would be our reference point). It’s like we’re trying to understand The Lord of the Rings by discussing its last chapter, or perhaps discussing the finer points of beaver trapping by examining a pair of well-made beaver mittens. The New Testament letters we’re discussing are themselves discussing the meaning and implications of a long, long story, the climax of which the authors believed had just happened. To understand what they’re saying, we need to understand the story that they were discussing. The Bible is one epic story, and its climax is in the Gospels. So what is the whole story?

We’re talking about faith and salvation, but what are those? What does faith mean? Do we mean the same thing that Paul or James did when we use it? What is salvation? Who is being saved? From what? Why? How? Many of you have mention being saved and going to heaven. What does that mean? What is heaven? The Hebrew word just means “the skies”. Is going to the sky when I die an idea that is stated in the Bible? I could go on, but I won’t. There’s no need to answer these questions here (please don’t); just think about these things as you read or discuss the Bible. For those of you who really want to think about this stuff, I think the roots of all of these issues lie in Genesis. Read it a few times, but don’t read it like a history textbook that is attempting to summarize historical events. Read it like a good work of literature that is attempting to explain the meaning of life and address the struggles of the human experience.

No need to bash James. He’s obviously good at starting conversations on topics you all want to discuss anyway. Why would anyone who is serious about being a Christian be upset about someone else wanting to talk about Christianity? We may not all agree about everything, but surely we can have a cordial conversation about the meaning of life, the world, and everything in it. Personally, I find questioning life’s most difficult topics to be engaging and rewarding, and I think that’s a big part of what the Hebrew Bible is trying to do too. Like Wendell Berry said, “ask the questions that have no answers.”

So it sounds many believe if you are horrible person but have faith you will get to heaven faster than a person who is really a good person here on earth but doesn’t have faith. Didn’t many of the mafia figures of yore that killed people have faith in God. I know several that donated large sums of money to the Catholic Church when I grew up in Pittsburgh. Terrorists have faith that their god exists but kill people.

You can buy off a church but you can't buy off God.

Exactly.
It's called atoning for your sins. Others crawl up stairs on their knees, others whip themselves.
Jesus paid our debt that we owe & very much so deserve.

Why play his game?

LOL

We are all sinful people in need of salvation. When you say " a really good person" your judging from a perspective of comparing one sinner to another, not the perspective of a perfect God. If all our sins, mistakes and evil thoughts were put on a screen for the world to see it might be a little more clear the need for a Savior

When I fish I'm happy to catch whichever fish might be biting that day.

Don't be the fish~ LOL

been there done that lol

If you can earn your salvation by your good works, then God owes you something.....your salvation. God owes nobody anything. Further, if you could earn your salvation by your good works, there was no need for Jesus to die on the cross.

Sorry, but after 4 pages of this I have to throw in.

For me, after 18 years being raised as a Catholic, but never really adhering, I kept the big message of doing the right things all of my life. 40 years later, with my brother who had turned deep baptist because of his wife... who was born lutheran but chose to be baptist, I learned that my mother, my father and every person I respected that we knew in common would burn in He!! because we hadn't fully accepted the body of Christ.

I told my brother that I would rather take my chances with the people I respected in the fires below than spend a promised eternity with them, who had traded a life with the unworthy on earth for an eternal promise..

There are thousands of religions on the planet, each one which thinks they have the right idea, yet nobody talks about that... only that their's is the ONE. My brother lives in a town with 6 baptist churches and he goes to the one that is the furthest away because the message is stronger.

I respect people based upon how they treat others, regardless of money, race or religion, and I have great respect for people who do the right things every day. I grew up surrounded by self proclaimed Christians who flew the bird at somebody in the parking lot getting out of church.

Just my take on it. I live my life every day on earth as if it was my last and always try to do right by others, and I'll take my chances after that.

Pete

Pete nailed it.

Keith

Some of the biggest crooks I know or have come across are semi-influential Southern Baptists and Nazarenes. They might be "saved" but they lied and cheated their way through life. I have no use for them. I also have no use for anyone that peddles the "prosperity gospel" nonsense. The God I learned about growing up Catholic doesn't bless only his truest believers with money and new dishwashers.

Many Christians are good people, but some are just sorry human beings. It is difficult for me to believe the sorry ones, saved or not, have a place in Heaven.

I too think Pete nailed it..

Not all Baptist are created equal.

One group believes anything goes and nothing you do can get you kicked out. But on their wall they have some kind of pledge saying you will never touch any form of alcohol. They teach Jesus made grape juice and not wine. Yet if you are chosen you can not fall. Seems to me that the ones that wrote up their handbook may have been a little tipsy when they wrote it.

And, I am not disparaging all Baptists and Nazarenes. I am disparaging all prosperity gospel kooks.

Basically, if you are a bad person, think that Jesus will make you rich or have a Christian fish or bible verse on your business card, website or other marketing materials, we are not doing business or becoming friends.

I prefer Christians that live like Christ would approve.

Don't you think if God created us, he will take us back unless we choose not to go?

Can't go wrong with faster horses, younger women, and more money. May not get you into heaven but you will have a really fun trip to Saint Peters gate.

If you truly except Jesus Christ as your savior. You will change the way you talk, think, and treat people. Yes we will sin til the day we die. You also have to ask for forgiveness to Jesus when you do sin. Your old self is gone. You have to die of your old ways to truly live. The Bible is the word, the word is the truth. It’s your choice whether you expect Jesus Christ or not.

Yes.

If someone were truly agnostic why would they care about your answer? Ask yourself that one.

I have numerous times over the years and my conclusion is some are genuinely interested but for whatever reason they are skeptical. I've known a few agnostics who became Christians

I think it is fair for James to ask these questions. Isn't answering those questions part of spreading the word?

You aren't the first "lawyer" to ask that question James. Here ya go..

25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among [i]thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

37And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

That is my hope I guess (that he isn't 100% on the agnostic thing) but the other answer is he just wants to troll us

That wasn't the vibe I got.

I'm a lapsed Catholic that enjoys reading Mark's posts (although we never learned most of that ). I like reading those of others too (I liked AM's above). I struggle with the "lapsed" part and it's probably just a matter of priorities, by the way.

I think his question was sincere. And, it's been a good mostly civil discussion.

once again, James sneaks in, drops a turd and then vacates the discussion he started.

The Catholic church does mix faith and works. That's what the reformation was resisting against. The CC had people buying indulgences to get their kinfolk out of purgatory. Totally unbiblical. Of course faith will produce works, but works do not save anyone.

I noticed that and expected he would but as someone mentioned above, it's something many of us like to discuss anyway.

Yes.

I just saw this thread, only read a couple posts, so maybe this has been pointed out already.
Good works just cofirms faith. If you truly have faith it will be demonstrated by your good works. It's a very simple concept, if you try to explain it any other way you might be trying to justify why you don't have good behavior yet you still want the benefits of a believer.

James has been busy. Mowing the lawn for the first time this season. And the grass and weeds are long, and the mosquitos are out. Time for a break.

I don't get the disbelief in my sincerity. Just because I've disagreed with you in the past doesn't mean we can't have an honest discussion. I like to discuss, even debate issues, interests, beliefs, and events. I don't have a lot of trapping wisdom to share--although I have some experience--but am willing to test the soundness of my opinions.

In this case, I've asked about a point in Christian belief, one that has long troubled me. Why do some Christians believe in salvation--or improvement in one's place in heaven--through good works, while others say only faith can can save your soul? Which is right in the sense of having more Biblical support?

I'm no Biblical scholar, and what I think I see are two schools of thought here.

I'm not a Christian, but for purpose of this discussion am willing to assume that Christianity is the true faith.

Jim

That's pretty much what my son says. The son teaches the father!

Jim

Live by the golden rule.I do.
It is a universal concept in all cultures and religions.
If everyone lived by the golden rule the world would be a much better place.
The golden rule does not preclude you from defending yourself against A-Holes that dont live by the rule.

Ding Dong..

James,
I can only speak for myself in that online conversations don't allow allow me to read the intent of someone's communication "theme" including body language, tone of voice, etc.
So I, like you, was asking clarifiers.

I was trying to gauge the depth at which you wanted an answer. Not your sincerity in asking.
This issue has been with us since the time of Abraham 6,000 years ago, in a biblical sense and only God would know how long it total.
The topic is of endless debate.

It may help to understand what theologians consider the orthodoxy of Christianity; that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.. Jesus' brother Jude refers to this sacred trust or tradition as he rebukes those who defile the Gospel in his day, just as humans do today and his text is helpful (Jude's words are Inspired... mine are not as a reminder); Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. (Jude 1:3).

History is important in our faith because your question is but one of many wrestled with those who went before us. Just as your law education is built upon worthy previous works, so is Christianity, so to get to a helpful answer to your question, we have to visit what in 434, a monk in Lérins, France named Vincent wrote about. It was a premier summary used by theologians until the Reformation era, at which time the schism, as you may know, spilt the Western faith in the 16th century. Vincent wrote; Do heretics also appeal to Scripture? They do indeed, and with a vengeance, for you may see them scamper through every single book of Holy Scripture - through the Books of Moses, the books of Kings, the Psalms, the Epistles, the Gospels, the Prophets. Whether among their own people, or among strangers, in private or in public, in speaking and in writing, at convivial meetings, or in the streets, hardly ever do they bring forward anything of their own which they do not endeavor to shelter under words of Scripture... Moreover in the Catholic (meaning Universal/all the churches) Church itself, all possible care must be taken that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. (Vincent of Lérins, The Commentary 25.64)

The orthodox faith holds to 7 truths at a minimum. These are the "core" of Christianity. Any fewer and the religion is not Christian.
* The Triune God as Creator and Redeemer
* The Fall and Resulting Depravity
* The Person and Work of Christ
* Salvation by Grace through Faith
* Inspiration and Authority of Scripture
* Redeemed Humanity Incorporated into Christ
* The Restoration of Humanity and Creation

So, to answer your question, when a group adds to this list, the rings around the core are enlarged and these rings are deemed Heterodoxy. Not heretical mind you, which are additions (or subtractions) much too far from that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all, but theology that is not a core orthodoxy. As an example, our nation has an orthodox heritage and some seek to add or subtract from it's founding documents. How far is that allowed before some would say, "This is not the same as the originals intended."

Realizing that, theologians have long sought to understand, honor, and pass down the Gospel of Jesus Christ as;
One (Christ is the Headship), Holy ("set apart" from the world), Catholic (Universal), Apostolic (from those who were 1st hand witnesses to the Risen Lord) Church.

So here we arrive, with a bit of context, because context is critical, to a "short" answer; The Protesters of the 16th centuries built upon John Huss and others 200 years before who claimed the Western Church had veered much too far from that which was believed everywhere, always, by all. Luther himself argued to church leadership that remonstrances went beyond heterodoxy to heresy. Luther claimed in his 95 Thesis that this dogma, like much too much (94 others), had been ADDED to the orthodox since 500 AD. So the schism of 1517 occurred over what had been an early Catholic (everywhere/always/by all) model of sanctification and justification explicitly drafted during numerous ecumenical councils (Augustinian);
Grace >>> Faith + Works >>>> Salvation ..... meaning God's Grace is necessary and sufficiently produces faith resulting in works unto salvation.

The Medieval Model had become: Grace + Faith + Works >>>>> Salvation.... meaning there needed to be cooperation with God's Grace. God's Grace was necessary but not sufficient and that God enabled cooperation with His Work unto Salvation. Thus this is a means of "progressive" salvation.

This later version wouldn't have been so bad if clever theologians in the medieval period hadn't also lost sight of the fact that God was the one who worked in believers BOTH to will and to work (Phil 2:13). Instead, medieval theology degenerated from the orthodoxy in a twofold error; 1) It neglected the Apostle Paul's teaching of justification by Grace through faith alone, and 2) it embraced the doctrine of meriting God's grace by human will and effort. This would of course be heterodoxy and some say much more.

Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin all sought to return the Church to the original Augustinian moorings and the Apostle Paul's teaching on justification.
And here we are today.

History is fascinating is it not!
Bottom line, the idea you propose, from the "Roman" Catholic Church ecumenical council of Trent in the 16th century is not an orthodox core. It is an "addition." It has not been believed everywhere, always, by all.
Scholars debate how far from the orthodox core that is.


Blessings on the first day of the week! The traditional day of worship post Ascension of our Lord.
Mark

although I've done it myself a time or two, I find it strange when folks refer to themselves in the third person.

what would your profs say, Mr. Author?

So Mark, let's take two true believers, who know in their heart that Christ is their Savior.

One does good works, the other doesn't. When they die, both go to heaven because they believe.

Does the one who did good works have a higher place in heaven? Does he or she get "more crowns," as I think someone said.

Jim

one of my favorite pastors (Reverend Charles Stanley) holds to this belief.

I do have a "problem" with that concept, though...seems to me that the very concept would lead to a jealousy of sorts.

God created all then why is this a Christianity issue? God is over all of us, good bad, ugly, Christian, Islam, Hindu etc. I don't feel God consumes a lot of time micro-managing life on our earth. It is us humans that choose to keep score and determine the foul lines.

Bryce

Are you familiar with The Noble Lesson? Written four hundred years before Luther's 95 Theses and eight hundred years after Diocletian's edict to burn scripture. Think of the wealth of manuscript evidence we would have today but for that. It's a wonder any survived. The Roman church drove apostolic Christianity underground but it didn't destroy it.

The Priest asketh him if he hath any sin,
He answers two or three words, and soon has done;
The Priest tells him he cannot be forgiven,
If he do not restore, and examine well his Faults:
When he hears this, he's very much troubled,
And thinks with himself, if he restore entirely,
What shall he leave his Children, and what will the World say?
Then he commandeth his Children to examine their faults,
And buyeth of the Priest his Absolution;

Though he hath a thousand Lives of another and a better Penny,
Yet the Priest acquits him for a hundred Pence,
And sometimes for less when he can get no more,
Telling him a large Story, and promising him Pardon,
That he'll say Mass for him, and for his Ancestours;
And thus he pardons them be they righteous or wicked,
Laying his Hand upon their Heads,
(But when he leaves them, he maketh the better chear)
And telling him that he is very well absolved.
But alas they are but sadly confessed who are thus faulty,
And will certainly be deceived in such an Absolution,
And he that maketh him believe it sinneth mortally.

For, I dare say, and it is very true,
That all the Popes which have been from Silvester to this present,
And all Cardinals, Bishops, Abbots, and the like,
Have no power to absolve or pardon,
Any creature so much as one mortal sin;
'Tis God alone who pardons, and no other.

Good question James. One that has been argued for a very long time. The answer may be, in our present age, whatever someone "feels" it is.
But the subject of "works" has been subjectively and extraordinarily applied to all sorts of legalism it was never intended for.
I stress again what the faithful rally around which has been believed everywhere, always , by all being the orthodoxy of the faith..
Additions are Heterodoxy and Heretical if they are too out of bounds.
* The Triune God as Creator and Redeemer
* The Fall and Resulting Depravity
* The Person and Work of Christ
* Salvation by Grace through Faith
* Inspiration and Authority of Scripture
* Redeemed Humanity Incorporated into Christ
* The Restoration of Humanity and Creation

So the Q you pose is more of an ecumenical theology (Church) where the 3 Marks of the traditional Christian Church are: Ordinances (2), Order, and Orthodoxy and the 3 Works of the Church are; Evangelism (spread the Gospel), Edification (of the believers), and Exaltation (Worship to God).

If someone places their faith in the 7 core statements of the Christian - with Jesus Christ at the center of course, we welcome them as a "believer."
All the rest can be debated.
I hope this helps.
Ever try to give serious answer to a serious category, with thousands of years of history and rich debate, in a few paragraphs?
I personally work alongside a RC seminarian. Great man. I just jab him from time to time that RC's don't give our Lord enough credit and he jabs me back that you Evangelicals are wild, wild, west.
We're both right!

Blessings,
Mark

I am no theologian, and I have not read the first 4 pages of this thread. But my take on works vs faith has been that works are a symptom of faith. Or put another way, faith yields good works.

As to whether or not more works yields more blessings in Heaven, I think this is one of the many issues that can confuse and perhaps even discourage people from Christianity. So much to get your head around. Modern Christian churches make it so simple. All you have to do is accept Jesus as your savior and you receive salvation, a one-way ticket to Heaven. But when the newly saved Christian seeks a deeper dive to understand matters such as the Five Crowns of Salvation, he tends to find himself bewildered. If John 3:16 is all you need for salvation, why does anything else matter?

The reason good works can't save you, is because if by your good works you could earned your salvation, then, that means God then owes you salvation since by your own efforts (works) you have earned it. The problem with that concept is it puts God in the debtor position; He then owes you something. That is exactly the opposite of how it works.

In addition, if you could earn your salvation, that would then make Jesus Christ's death/sacrifice meaningless since we don't really need Him; we could just rely on ourselves to earn salvation.

I usually don't copy and paste big sections of scripture, but James chapter 2 explains it best. The whole chapter is good, but pay particular attention to verse 14 to the end of the chapter.

2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You can beat your head against the same brick wall or accept the fact that it's unlikely that God himself could answer your question to your satisfaction. I tell my youngest son to figure it out. Welcome to the family.

Augustine of Hippo, a Church theologian from the 4th century has a quote, based in biblical text, that is referred to often and you've probably heard it before James; believe that you may understand.

Anselm in the 12th century, wrote his thesis that a moderately intelligent person could be convinced of God’s existence. Anslem’s book Monologion begins with these words: “If anyone does not know, either because he has not heard or because he does not believe, that there is one nature, supreme among all existing things, who alone is self-sufficient in his eternal happiness, who through his omnipotent goodness grants and brings it about that all other things exist or have any sort of well-being, and a great many other things that we must believe about God or his creation, I think he could at least convince himself of most of these things by reason alone, if he is even moderately intelligent.”

I am of the position God elects and calls to Himself, so those Anselm envisions being called to God have been.... by God's Grace alone.

Blessings,
Mark

Oh and James, as a believer, I encourage and enjoy your thoughts. Intellectually, believers are called to acquire knowledge of a variety of subjects and develop skills in critical thinking and communication (1 Kgs 4:29-34; Prov 1:5; Dan 1:17). We should resist all gnostic and atheistic (and others) attempting to urge us to choose "between" faith and reason, Scripture and science. We can avoid the evil of it all as we seek to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength (Mark 12:30).

Gnostics seek to shed the physical and pursue all things spiritual, some of the heresies chasing planets and other gods, but Christians are bodied beings, made in God's Image, and that's a key.
I'm currently serving M-F with a Chaplain team and this whole body and soul theme seems to be of utmost importance to many I talk to towards the end of their lives. It's a special sweet conversation and each person and each conversation, often with me listening > 90% humbles me.

Blessings to Alaska sir!
Mark

Faith, a righteous life will bring all that is good...

Some non-believers seem compelled to question the faith of Christians. Some are picking at what they think is a loose thread and they can unravel Christianity? Some are really questioning their own beliefs? Some do have "good" intentions and are simply finding their way...

James, Godspeed...

Do good works matter? If you you are on the receiving end of the good deed it sure matters,Duh.

Good works should stem from a heart full of gratitude, a heart full of love for God. Sounds odd to the unbeliever, loving God. How can one love God? You can't love God until you have an appreciation for what God has saved you from. How can you be saved if you don't know what you're being saved from? God convicts the believer of sin. The sinner wallows in the law trying to justify and save himself until he gives up in despair. He realizes he can't do it. Eventually, once the sinner is at the end of his or her rope, they cry out to God for mercy. God bestows it and the believers heart is filled with love and gratitude from which those good works flow.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He knocks on your hearts door...answer it.

I think in this case there are two kinds of faith. There is faith that is head-knowledge and faith that comes from the heart. Truly believing that a God emptied Himself of being a God and chose to become a man to save that which was lost as a result of the sin of Adam & Eve, that comes from the heart.

When a soldier is killed in war, we say he gave the ultimate sacrifice, his life, so that we might live free. How could you not love the man for it? The same holds true with Jesus. He gave His life that we might be free from the sin of Adam.

Because we are locked in flesh in this world, even a true believer sins because the flesh compels us to. I feel the difference that determines whether you a true believer and not a head knowledge Christian is if when you sin(and both are susceptible to sin) whether or not it matters to you. If you're sorry that you did.

I have enjoyed reading the posts. Mark you get pretty deep ,which I tend to do also. I was raised Methodist, converted to Catholicism over 30 years ago with no regrets. Have studied it a bit for the last 10 years or so and I'm constantly learning new things. We have an awesome God. I don't post much( I am a trapper, or at least I've made an attempt for the last 45 years or so) so no I'm not on here trolling, mostly learning. I would like to say, I believe we need to use all of the Bible and look at each verse within the context of the whole. This Faith without works discussion has been argued ,for ages, by people way smarter than me. I like to think that if you have Faith, how could you not have works? If you don't try to do as our Lord Jesus instructed us to do, do you really have Faith? If you tell your wife you love her, but don't show it, is it really love? Don't think she'd believe it. Try to do good to others and pray for them when they annoy the you know what out of you(Still working on this). Like Red Green would say, "Remember I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together". We are in this together no matter what religion you go by. We all need God's grace to make it each and every day. Prayers to all! Todd

Agreed Todd. Our post-modern times tell us we are smart, but limit it to 140 characters quite often, which breeds "slogans" and "sayings," none of which respect the deep heritage of our faith.
I have enjoyed the posts in this thread.
Thank y'all!

Blessings,
Mark