Fake Dead Sea reporting

I've been doing some reading in particular about Jesus and His miracles. While I was searching for the one miracle where Jesus was working for a famed grape juice company making grape juice, I ran into some articles that think Josephus got a lot wrong about the Essene's and some of the scrolls and the later Greek writings of the era. One particular flaw they say was about the miracle where Jesus fed the multitude with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish. They are saying it was bread and few clusters of grapes. They reason the Romans were meat eaters and to justify their horrendous act they changed the grapes to fish.
I love it when a reporter 2000 years from the scene knows more than one closer to the scene. PETA and their cronies are driving head on with their anti meat campaign and intend to chop the tree out by the roots regardless how fishy it smells.

Jesus worked for a grape juice company?

Mary was his supervisor, and it was a short term job with the caterers.

I'm sure the wheat for the Bread was organic

It actually appears that Jesus went with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, to Joseph's tin mines in Cornwall, from the years after he turned water into wine, until he started preaching. Their family had owned the mines for 6 or 7 generations at that point. After the crucifiction the family fled to Cornwall and Wales permanently.

Keith

And that historical fact comes from where?

There's at least 7 different period documents. Just search "Jesus in Cornwall".

Family Search and the other major genealogy sites all show Joseph of Arimathea's and Jesus's family as having some members settled in Cornwall for 6 or 7 generations, by Jesus's death too.

Keith

If I'm not mistaken that Joseph is the same one that furnished the tomb for the body of Jesus to be placed in. Which would make sense, since he would have been Mary's uncle and would have been likely to be able to have received the body much like the tradition still carries on today. Keep in mind that Joseph would have been the great uncle of Jesus. The Joseph that was the step-father of Jesus was also the uncle of Jesus. As, since Mary had no brother her father adopted the Joseph she married. Making him her brother also and the uncle of Jesus.

Here is one of many articles: https://www.thinkoutsidethebeast.com/joseph-of-arimathea-and-the-missing-years-of-christ/

Joseph of Arimathea was the younger brother of Mary's father Joachim. He was also the father of Jesus's wife Mary Magdalene. They were very wealthy due to money from their tin mines in Cornwall and trade in raw furs. Christians mostly have a very, very hard time accepting these very well documented facts and will likely be along to dispute them, without looking at any of the massive amount of evidence proving them.

The divine right of kings was based on their being descendants of Jesus until the Catholic churches popes and cardinals, who wanted power, started persecuting people for not following them instead.

Keith

You believe this?

Jesus' wife????

Yes, I believe Jesus was a real human man.

The main point of all organized religions is to control people. They have all been created and corrupted by people. I think there are truths in all organized religions and some good comes from them, but much wrong too. I believe there is a God and that we were created in their image.

Organized religions work by indoctrinating their members at an early age. They teach their members to ignore very obvious fallacies by demanding they have faith. They put immense social pressure on their members to believe as they demand or to at least to not openly disagree.

Keith

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, who St. Peter was extremely jealous of, as clearly documented in the gospels and other writings of the time. When the Catholic popes took power, they had to wrest that power from Jesus's descendants. Peter started that wrongful tradition and Pope Gregory the First took it to a new level.

Keith

All speculation . No meat on the bone facts at all. Might as well say he lived with the africans and rode a white elephant because someone a long time ago said so. I am sure the story serves some end game for some reason.

All gnostic heresy discussed debated and decredited early on.

And cults operate on secret knowledge.

I'm not the one to argue the Bible but consider what a formidable trip it would have been from Palestine to England in those times.

I haven't untangled the the Da Vinci Code in a long time. I believe Jesus died for the whole world and not just His fleshly blood relatives, if that is where we are headed.
With that said, what got me started on this thread was searching for more info on wine for local reasons and stumbled into the thing about the bread and grapes and that fish was not allowed which seemed to coincide with the mink covid thread.
I am about to be tossed from my own church for not giving in that the Romans will produce the antichrist. We just have had a new flood of alcoholics come in and just their knowing that I think Jesus made real wine and not grape juice is upsetting the apple cart. I believe The Son of Perdition will come from the Tribe of Dan of which many are now in the Celtic region. I don't believe the Jews would follow someone who is not Jew.
Carry on !

Considering the roman conquest of Britain didn't get underway until ten years after the crucifixion I tend to doubt anyone was operated an industrial tin mine in the far west of the island.

What text are you referring to?

I'm thinking this is showing what effect history has on our future. Does the old saying "The Victors Write The History" have any merit. We are seeing history torn down right here in our own day. If there is no living witnesses and no carved statues then it must not have happened.

Yeah, I recently re-read the Gospels and saw absolutely nothing in them to make one think Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. In fact, in Matthew, Jesus said it was better for a man to remain unmarried and focus on Heaven if he is able to do so.

So some of the strongest and most aggressive disciples were worried about Jesus and his relatives and worked to remove them from interfering with their brand of Christianity? Wow and many feel it is only lately that the World is going to %#&& in a handbasket. Religion then has interfered with spirituality from the onset. No wonder we have the divisive nature we have today. Maybe the billions who have chosen not to get involved heavily in religious organizations are not as amoral as many would like to think they are.

Bryce

Very simple - you do not have to be involved heavily. Salvation is a simple truth. A gift from the one true God. Jesus Christ died for all who repent of their sins and choose to accept Him into their life. A true Christian is known my their fruit and should desire sanctification of their life.

KeithC
Knows nothing abt Jesus or the Bible
Sooo sad.

I feel pity for those who mock scripture. LLL

Same here.

dont forget the bible your so fond of was created by emporer constantine. his goal was to unite his empire under one religion. its why christianity has so many pagan roots. it was the only way to get all them to accept the new religion.


fwiw im not mocking anything.

those who say what they are taught today is the same faith taught before emporer constantine need to do a little more research. IF there are any original gospels still around the vatican has them locked in their library and very few ever read them.

And you base this on? Cite your sources, please.

And Wikipedia or online sources don't count. Let's see some scholarly research and actual published works.

Why would a emperor create a book that undermines his authority?
Why would religious leaders promote a book that undermines their authority?

Seems to be quite a bit of judging afoot! Hmmm.

do your own research. go to a library

T

I'm thinking even if you had a scroll fresh from a cave near the Dead Sea, that Constantine's eyes had never saw, you still wouldn't believe. Because you are an atheist and a very good one at that ! You fall into the form of "whatever you do, do it well".

I have and and am fully convinced the Jesus actually existed and was the only Son of God and born to a virgin who did exactly as as the gospels describe. He was crucified and returned from the grave three days later walked among us for another forty days before ascending into heaven. Not only do the gospels all agree on this with corrobated eyewitness testimony from the apostles the entirety of the biblical record from the very beginning of the Torah to what we now know of as the Bible points to and confirms His existence.

Furthermore I rely not just on Canon as the complete secular history of the first century backs up the claims of the gospels.

I also believe that His grace can be extended to all for remission of sin and entrance into an eternal relationship with God.

People, at least most people, choose and defend the religion their parents and community are a part of. We have a few Budhists in the U.S. a few Muslims also, but not many. In Japan there are very few Christians and in India there are not many Jews. That is another truth that few want to contemplate.

True, but every soul will eventually contemplate for themselves and must decide. For it is written that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

Can someone please post some YouTube videos? I agree that some reliable sources are required here.

I have. Just a smattering of some of my library.

After man has had his hands in it all I say is every church and group write and rewrite things slanted to their point of view, if not why is there one God and a hundred or more different churches in this country alone. Even on here people can't agree .

True. People tend to believe what they want to believe. What some believe will not seem true to what others believe. I see no harm in any of this.

You see no harm? So someone say's they can sleep with someone of the same sex not repent of it and not call it a sin and it's okay?

It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. George Washington

Pastor posted that on our FB churches home page and the powers that be over there said it violated community standards and they took it down. Even now we're being set up. You'd better choose wisely on which side of the fence you're sitting on.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


Romans 1:21-23
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Except Posco, no place but Facebook makes the claim Washington ever said that. Just more misinformation by "righteous disciples of Jesus" (my words)

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams ...

If we who know God are so deluded why the animosity and aggression on the part of those who chose not to believe?

If anything that alone is prima facia that something exists, either that or those who chose not to believe are as equally deluded.

Danny I’ve asked this before and to my best knowledge it was never answered. If you don’t believe in God where do you get your morals from? Not a trick question just curious. Thanks

Pawnee I have answered it. Many times. i guess you never noticed. You will just disagree so whats the point of answering again??

"If we who know God are so deluded why the animosity and aggression" You need thicker skin. I get tired of fairy tales. People continue to spout them so why would I not post my disbelief? Are you Christians the only ones who can tell people what they believe?

Why did you use the word aggression ? We must have a different idea of what aggression is.

Whether Washington made the statement or not, FB took issue with the thrust of the sentiment. There's no question this country was formulated around the Judeo/Christian heritage. I don't suffer under the illusion that the majority of Americans were ever truly followers of Christ but the majority recognized the influence Christianity had on this country and at least paid it lip service. God blessed us accordingly.

The book of Revelation is playing out in front of our eyes and many refuse to see it. The world is being set up to submit to a global authority. It's coming.

Well, let's see. It all began with a cross outside of Jerusalem. Ten of the eleven surviving apostles all died at the hands of persecutors. Including one who vehemently denied Christ when first challenged but would later see the risen Christ. Just why would they do that if they were spreading a falsehood?
Then there was state sanctioned genocide in the coliseum.
Whole books are written of those who have given their life for belief in a falsehood and yet the persecution continues to this day.
Seems to me if you just ignore us it'll all go away.

I don't know of a single follower of Christ who attacks non believers or seeks to limit the free exercise of disbelief.

That's a very complex issue but at its core is what set off the reformation and Martin Luther marling the 95 thesis to the door..... Most people fail to study the Bible and only know what is told during service.

Growing up as a catholic priests would get mad for asking deep biblical questions. It wasn't until I became a Christian and really started studying that things made sense. Even while in school of ministry and biblical college there was a constant theological debate between free will and election amongst other debates like the 2nd coming.

The main things to ask is it biblical, is it a main issue or a secondary issue or nonissue, is the particular church teaching biblically and against sin?
A nonissue would be something like corporate worship style. Some churches want it to be a concert others want only hymns.
A secondary issue is something like end times (eschatology).

Danny I believe you misunderstood. I’m just curious and never used the word aggression in my question. I’ve got plenty think skin and not try to fire you up. Just wanted to know.

My buddy a (messianic Jew) is a great apologist (apologetics) and debates high level people of various faith. A few years back he debated a well known atheist on this very topic. You can search for it under his name Mariano Grinbank. He has a lot of videos articles debates etc... online

A well know apologist and pastor James White has done a few of these debates too. It's worth taking the time to listen to them

This sounds like you are saying that those that believe in god do not know the difference between right and wrong, that they need to be told what is right and what is wrong.

I guess some people are born knowing right from wrong and others need a how to be a better person book.

Yup. None of my business what happens in somebody else's bedroom. They can take it up with God if they want to. Up to them.

You haven't been around to many toddlers, have you?

Any amount of time with a toddler will demonstrate that no one is born knowing right from wrong. It is our inherent nature to do wrong.

Or you can just click on the TV for further proof.

These threads always get interesting. It's funny how a small amount of grey matter can twist and turn such a simple question into a convoluted series of ideas, theories, conspiracies and dogmas.

The question is quite simple, as it was put to Peter.

Who do you say that I am?

My faith alone is that of the thief, remember me my Lord when you come into your kingdom.

I thought it was a little more than lip service . I thought you had to live.

How long did the thief have to live it out?

Not to make light of it because of course faith without works is dead but faith alone comes first. No amount of works alone can buy the golden ticket.

And if that was a reference to my own works, I freely admit I am not as hard a worker as I should be.

Lets suppose a child is born in a Jungle among a tribe of cannibals. Do you suppose the child would see any thing wrong with eating a passing stranger ?

I’m not trying to be disrespectful to anyone. Humans have to be taught what’s good and what’s bad. We are born basically bad. I was just wondering where people that don’t believe in a higher power get their moral compass from. Not pushing anything on anyone or saying I know best. You can’t be taught what’s right or wrong from someone’s feelings. Right and wrong good and bad come from God and God alone.

Are not those cannibals descendants of Adam, Noah? Do they not live in a world where the rocks cry out?

All covered in Roman's chapter 1.

[quote=warrior]Are not those cannibals descendants of Adam, Noah? Do they not live in a world where the rocks cry out?

All covered in Roman's chapter 1.

About all I can say about that is if the cannibal didn't have the written word nor had ever even heard the name of Jesus how was he supposed to know.
If he is judged on natural law, perhaps he would still be obeying his conscience if he ate the stranger and not a friend or relative. In other words he did the best with what he had ?

You can't separate early America and Christianity, it's impossible to do. What's hard for me to do is to divorce my Americanism from my Christian faith. It saddens me beyond description to see this country being destroyed before our very eyes and we seem impotent to do anything about it. The world is heading toward judgement at breakneck speed and it's plain as day to see. God's will be done.

He's still accountable.

Yes. It's their choice. God gave man free will. They can say that it's ok, and not repent. When judgment day comes they will find out whether they were right or wrong.

Surely you don't believe he is accountable for something he doesn't even know ? How just is this god you speak of ?

Nobody is born knowing right from wrong. That doesn't even make logical sense. Morals are what you are taught.

Man is born with a propensity to sin. Lawyers and cops wouldn't be necessary otherwise.

So just that He died for you. So just that He does not bend to our will. Temper tantrums crying not fair is not just.

This post has proven my point over and over again. Man can't agree on anything that has to do with religion. Every body says they are right and every one else is wrong. I think we are all going to be surprised in the end.

Nope, I'm not right but I know the One that is. But don't take my word at it because I ain't right, get in His book and find out for yourself.

Now we are back on course. People send their kids to daycare when they are 2. Send them to school after they are old enough. On Sunday they send them to Sunday school to be taught. Then entertain them with u-tube and facebook or worse so they don't have to be bothered with them. Then wonder why their kid don't believe as they do. And in some cases they are actually better off.

Does anyone else reading this thread find irony in this statement when considering the entire content of this thread?
Mac

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Just a test to either prove or disprove your theory. Does any of God's people disagree with the notion that the sun comes up in the East and goes down in the West ? Only those who disagree need reply, lol. Alaska and up don't count.

I wonder if God really anticipated that by having is own son die for our sins that us sinners would take that many "mulligans" during our lives. I believe that we well have been born with the tendency to sin and be abusive to our fellow man, but I don't feel that it was God's intention that we has "saved" and "unsaved" humans would train or educate ourselves to be better at sinning. Hopefully we would be willing to turn around and strive to sin less not more.

Bryce

...All flesh is grass........but the Word of our God will stand forever.
Isaiah 40:6

We all must keep the faith! Soon, the Word of God will be seen to the masses; as well as many modern day believers as an archaic writing open for interpretation. It is already happening.
It will be rough times, but we must hold strong and always know that our Creator keeps His word and that Jesus (and He alone) is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Excellent posts with good insight as always Warrior! Thanks, Brother!

I do agree Bryce, but in today's world who gets to decide the definition of "sin?" Will we as a people continue to follow the Creator's definition of sin, or will we let mankind decide the definition?

Mind if I ask you if you're a pre or post tribulation rapture adherent?

I believe mankind has been defining sin for thousands of years. At least mankind plays a huge factor in what sin is more detestable then another, I guess we humans just love to have a grading system so we can put people in what we call the right categories and then discuss why their sins are worse. We overlay a very politicized religious system with a politicized governmental system with politicized cultural value systems and we wonder why we are faced with what we are dealing with today?

Bryce

To follow up on the cannibal question, further in Romans chapter 4 we see just how the person who has never had the opportunity to hear of the Messiah may still receive God's grace.



In other words the simple recognition and acknowledgement of God's will over one's life is sufficient.

So we see first that the cannibal's family line had every opportunity to follow God from the beginning of time. But mans nature being what it is that is unlikely so God has written upon the heart of every man, woman and child, all of of his creation for that matter the imprint of his presence.

Even the most agnostic among us if honest would admit to those quiet moments of wonder. Is this all? Am I truly alone? Is there any meaning to life?

Phrase it how you will, answer it how you will. If indeed we are not alone then that must be a power and intelligence far superior to any man could muster.

To my satisfaction that power is a God of love and a God of mercy pure and absolute in His perfection. And that same perfection is an eternal barrier to my own imperfection. Only a perfect God and perfect sacrifice can bridge that divide. I am made perfect in His sight by the blood of Christ.

Good evening Posco. I appreciate your posts on here. I started reading the Bible and studying it for myself years ago and no longer allow someone else to tell me what the Bible says; although I do value their input and base it on my understanding.

To your question, I don't know for sure. Since I take the Bible very literally, my inclination is pre-tribulation. However, I think it is a grave mistake for us to try to set dates and timelines; as none of us know exactly where we are on God's timeline. Whether pre, post, or mid tribulation, I do believe that we true believers are going to experience some very rough times in the near future in this country. Our Christian brethren across the globe are experiencing it on a daily basis and I see no reason why we will not face the same, and deservingly so.

We have been protected from the persecution because we are blessed to live in this wonderful country we call our home. We must fight to protect, defend, and preserve it for our children. However, with the current state of affairs and the blatant re-defining of God's Word I do believe we have our toughest days ahead of us. It is not only worth fighting for indeed, but necessary and I don't think it will be pretty. Just my thoughts and opinion. Chancey

What happened to all of the souls of those who died before it was known that one must take God as their Savior in order to make it into Heaven?

See my last post.

The skin that God used to replace the fig leaves was a sign of future redemption. Animal sacrifice was unto the coming of the sacrifice of Jesus. Animal blood does not equal a man's blood only the coming sacrifice of the coming 2nd Adam could equally match that of the 1st Adam. Thus fulfilling the law of life for life, blood for blood.

When Jesus descended into the depths he brought all those out. My understanding is they will be guest at the marriage of Jesus and His church. I'm open to further enlightenment.

Well after 5 pages we may have finally got back to my original point, which was about changing the miracle of feeding the multitudes with bread and fish to bread and grapes.
I have seen some vegetarians claim that animals were only to be eaten on Noah's Ark and that after the trip was over and the land appeared they were to go back to being vegetarians. I've also heard some say in bible study that God did not kill the animal for the skin to replace the fig leaves, but since sin came into the world the animals just died and therefore that's where He got the skin from. Since they also claim the animals didn't eat one another until long after Noah turned them loose by pairs because they would have ate some species out of existence.

There was some of the Jerusalem Talmud that had a law that said you can't eat a limb off a live animal. If it wasn't alright to eat a dead one then why have that law. (Of which some say reverts to period in the Garden).
There was also laws requiring the draining of the blood, thus not eating a live animal, therefore being humane.

And of course there was that trip Peter took down to the tanners house.

So I guess they can say Noah didn't catch and eat fish on his trek or that Jesus did not eat fish on any of His. blah, blah.

Gen 4
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

I think I will eat a hamburger for supper and help get rid of some of those carbon polluting cows.

I read the KJV and NKJV version and compared it with the The Annals of the World by James Ussher with a seeking mind and heart. Mr. Ussher doesn't appear to be corrupted by anyone. If your looking for proof through a study of history by multiple historians not connected to one another, this is the source. Took me the better part of a year to complete.

I believe this is correct. We have to put ourselves in Adam and Eve's predicament at that time. There is written evidence (Bible and other non-canonical books) that suggest Adam and Eve talked with the animals in Eden; in my mind they may have known some of them personally. Everything was different prior to the Genesis 3 curse. It had to have been a shock for both Adam and Eve to see the Creator kill an "innocent" animal in their minds and clothe them with it. Remind you that prior to the Genesis 3 curse there was no killing or animals eating one another.

God the Creator was teaching Adam and Eve a very important lesson however. That lesson, is that only by the shedding of innocent blood would they be covered for their sins. The same holds true to all of us today; which is why God sent his only son (perfect in all His ways and sinless) to forgive us for our sins. The beautiful thing about our Creator is that He is a loving Father and God, but He is also a Just God. For justice to occur, there must be some payment for sin. Jesus Christ is our payment. That is how I see I see the "Good News" in a nutshell. Chancey

Foxpaw, I think that you are dabbling with things that are not in the Canon. That tells me you are reading and studying your Bible and looking for answers to questions that are unanswered.

I believe many other books are valid (Jasher, Jubilees, Enoch, etc.) The Book of Enoch was found in the tombs with the Dead Sea Scrolls and so were others including the Book of Giants.
It is my understanding that God the Creator put the animals that were on the ark into a deep sleep for the 40 days and 40 nights.

I encourage you in researching this endeavor, but I will caution to be keen to deception in the writings and fact check everything with the Word of God (Jesus Christ). It has been my experience that where you are going can lead into a rabbit hole and leave someone with doubt about the Living God; although bits and pieces may be certainly true.

Always keep the Faith, and stand by the Rock, Jesus Christ. I encourage you and anyone interested to watch this documentary by the late Dr. Chuck Missler concerning Genesis 4 and 5. Whether you agree or not; he has very good insights and brings up much to ponder. Chancey

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...fcaa984b5515758ca732d82&action=click

I'll watch those videos when I can, Chancey. Thanks for posting them.

You're welcome Posco. If you find Chuck Missler's commentary over Genesis 4 and 5 interesting, then I encourage you to watch his Genesis 6 commentary. It is quite intriguing. Chancey

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...09f04c943ef62e078ece6d1&action=click

That which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all is the orthodox of the Christian faith so these writers of the Christian Identity movement, like so many other falsehoods may be "identity" but they aren't Christian. It's thesis they alone started for their glory, not God's. This is not a new dilemma of course. It's been with humans since the woman was deceived and Adam went along to get along.
We should sift every "new" discovery from the post-modern era (last two hundred years) through the prism of the historical, theological, and orthodox doctrines of our faith.

When you do that, it's usually the case that none of these ideas are new. They are rehashes of previous falsehoods. This is the same.
Unlike the liberal theologians who (by definition) pick and choose what "they prefer" from the inerrant, inspired Word, I'll start with the Biblical text as the source it is.
So that we may know the character of God (Exodus 34:6-7) and His Creation, Redemption, Restoration narrative.
It's His Creation.
We're just the creation.
Glad He shared a bit for us is my appreciation.
No need to haggle over more humanism.
There's enough of that everywhere already.


Blessings,
Mark

Absolutely positively incorrect. The canonical text was in place prior to the Council of Nicene in 325 and Constantine later that same century.
Learning from Google or a unlearned pastor who didn't study this topic at formal education is not the same as leaning from historical patristic theology scholars who study ancient texts (some have found them) and the ancient Koine and Aramaic languages as a vocation.
Don't learn your theology from Google or false teachers of God's Word.
Like learning trapping from a person who doesn't even go outside.
It can be done but please don't call yourself a trapper in the true sense.

Blessings,
Mark

So were your parents atheists and mockers also? LLL

Follow me and I will make you Fishers of Men,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Tough sell on the bait he used but it has lasted for a long time as evidence here.................. the mike

Being a gentile, I'm humbled and thankful to have been born now,
and most especially for Jesus and the New Covenant,
because y'all can count those gentiles who received God's Grace under the Old Covenant on one hand.

What is it my Grandma used to tell me;
"Count your blessings"

Blessings,
Mark

I've known three people in my life that had really bad visceral reactions whenever the topic of Christianity came up. One guy I once worked with posts anti-Christian stuff on FB from time to time. It's about the only thing I ever see him post and I can't say he gets much response to it. Just strikes me as odd.

I remember being a relatively young Christian and three or four of us were at work when the topic came up. I don't remember who brought it up, me silently praying before I ate my lunch, I don't remember. One guys reaction was negative and immediate. The first words out of his mouth were "Light my fire!" He was hostile. Those words could very well end up being apropos in his case.

None of us are born Christian, I was in my early thirties when I first believed. I came from a very marginal Roman Catholic background that had no impact on me whatsoever. I thought it was voodoo. I used to mock Holy Rollers right along with the rest of them, thought they were an odd bunch. I never thought it was for me, I thought you were born into it. I understand how odd it must seem to someone who has never encountered God. Like I mentioned, I always thought it was for someone else...but not me. That's one of the many lies Satan uses to keep people in bondage.

Welch's, I believe it was.

I learn much from the historical theologians of our faith, who like us, were thinkers. Here's some 6th century insight as to the Bible;

For as the word of God, by the mysteries which it contains, exercises the understanding of the wise, so usually by what presents itself on the outside, it nurses the simple-minded. It presents in open day that wherewith the little ones may be fed; it keeps in secret that whereby men of a loftier range may be held in suspense of admiration. It is, as it were, a kind of river, if I may so liken it, which is both shallow and deep, wherein both the lamb may find a footing, and the elephant float at large. (Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job, pref. 4)

How can the same Scripture be both shallow and deep? Because of the mysteries which it contains.

Blessings,
Mark

The many contradictory and fanciful beliefs on here only make me more secure in the life journey that has resulted in my position as a non-believer. I sure don't need to accept accounts of supernatural actions and magic tricks in order to be judged to be a good person. Dust to dust.

Jarhead

We all get to decide who's boss. There is wonder (and mercy) in that.
We all got here somehow.
Unless you're a gnostic and all this is a wisp.

I have always been fascinated why someone would hang their eternal hat on a human opinion tree.
Those all just make for good firewood.

Some stand, 1988 years later, with the only human to ever rise out of a grave after being in it for three days.
Some stand opposed.
There's always only ever been two sides.
Still is.

Blessings y'all,
Mark

Well Jarhead, its not our job to judge the good and bad here in the Kingdom of Heaven. Its all just a mixture and has the wheat and tares all growing together. In the end at harvest when the wheat is bowed over and the tares are standing erect they will be easy to remove without damaging the wheat. So why not just let them grow together for now.

Why would a person care if he was judged to be "good" if he believes he is just dust?

What restraint would dust have to be called good?

I can sorta see why an anti-trapper would oppose trapping.... save the whales anthropology.
Why are people anti-Christian? I mean I sorta understand why the philosophers like Karl Marx said religion was the opiate of the people and if only people could be freed from it, they would finally reach their glory among humanity.
But why the other anti-Christian concern?
It is the anthropological apologetic for the existence of God.
One of the strongest of several arguments.

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice saying unto me in the Hebrew language, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the goad. Acts 26:14

That's a blasphemous meme you posted, Davisfur. I've done worse in my former ignorance. A meme won't be an argument in that day, it won't protect you or offer you an excuse. You'll stand naked, mute, alone and be charged with it. That's if God in his mercy doesn't open your eyes and grant you the gift of repentance.

I appreciate your concern Posco. And you are not saying anything I haven't heard before. I was raised in a very strict church and we were there every time the doors were open. I was dragged into church at times by my ear while running a fever because it was "a sin" to miss church. At the age of 13 I was taken aside by 4 very popular and nationally known preachers of that church during a meeting and given private lessons that consisted of them telling me that if I didn't get baptized not only would my soul burn in everlasting fire but I would be condemning my mother and grandmother (two of the most God-fearing women to ever draw breath} to the same fate because it was thier job to see me baptized into the church and they failed. So that night at the meeting in tears and absolutely terrified for not my own well-being but that of my family I got up and answered the call. From that day forward I was groomed to become a preacher in the church. I was taught how to lead songs, pass communion, and work up a lesson and deliver it even learned to read a little bit of greek. The preachers made it clear that in order to get someone to believe a sermon you had to "sell" it and I became good enough at it to win state in public speaking in FFA my junior year in high school. I started having trouble with the church when I was researching lessons. We were taught in church that you did not take the preachers word as gospel until you read along with him and came to the same conclusion that he was getting at and if you didn't come to the same conclusion you were to question his word and study with other members about it to get to the true meaning. The problem was that I started to question some things we were being taught and when I started asking questions and seeking guidance I was simply told that the way we were taught was the way it was and if I didn't see it that way then I needed to reread and study until I came to the same conclusion. So the more I read the more questions I had until I figured out that everything I had been "taught" I had actually just been "sold". The more I questioned the less patient they became until one Sunday during deer season I missed church to help an uncle find a poorly hit deer and the following Sunday I was informed by our main preacher that since I committed the grievous sin of forsaking the assembly, I would no longer be allowed to participate in my normal church duties until I got up in front of the congregation and openly and publicly asked for their and God's forgiveness. When church started and it came to the invitation call he pointed me out to the congregation and told them the reason I had not been allowed to participate in my normal duties. He then proceeded to say "I believe that brother Davis has something he wants to say" and boy did I ever have something to say. I will not go into detail of what was said out loud in a quiet church but it was basically that they could stick thier hypocritic church and everyone in it where the sun doesn't shine and then I walked out. Walked down the street to a pay phone and called my Dad to come get me because I had driven my mother and grandmother to church. I've never darkened the doorway of another church save for funerals. And before you say that I shouldn't let one bad experience with church ruin my life you can save it because I've heard it all before. After leaving I went on a spiritual journey of my own trying to find answers to the questions I had and I believe I have found some of them and it doesn't align with anything a Christian church has to offer. Sorry for the novel but I thought I'd give a little background on myself so yall wouldn't think I just posted anti religious memes due to ignorance or lack of education on the subject. You may still think that but I don't care.

Religion only works well at controlling people when it inspires great fear and hope for great reward. Christianity was well designed by men to do just that. Christianity is being continuously tweaked to make it even more manipulative.

I just can't believe that God is insecure, petty, fickle and vindictive as he is portrayed in Christianity.

Keith

While I do agree that there are supernatural accounts (call them magic tricks if you want, are displayed on this thread) what are the "many" contradictory" beliefs you speak of; other than KeithC's comment at the first of this thread. There is nothing wrong with discussing perceived contradictions.

Funny the differences in how one sees scripture. I have never seen Jesus as insecure, petty, fickle, or vindictive.

I often wonder why non-believers comment on these kinds of threads.....I really don't understand it if their mind is already made up.

The above posts make me think a lot about where we are today as a world of human beings; and it certainly justifies and re-assurances my belief (which I believe is the absolute TRUTH) that Jesus Christ is the most anti-religious person to ever walk the face of the earth. Jesus could not stand religion; I dare say I think He hated it due to its divisiveness.

Take the comments on this thread for an example........Danny's, Jarhead's, Davisfur's, and KeithC's (my intention is not to offend, but rather trying to understand where you are coming from based on what you have written and believe previously)

Danny Clifton, who I respect immensely on this forum and value his thought across all boards trapping, hunting, fishing, and family; I believe is agnostic. He may very well believe in the supernatural, but he's just not sure about that Jesus Christ fellow and the so called "religion" of Christianity; or any others for that matter. He is open for other ideas and also researches and educates himself in what best fits his moral compass.

Jarhead on the other hand is a self spoken atheist; and I humbly appreciate his service to our nation and respect him very much. He does not believe that there is a God, or that any supernatural events take place. To him, everything must make sense both mathematically and scientifically. His rock is science and facts.

Davisfur's story is an unfortunate one that I know all too well; as I have been there. He was raised by "religion" rather than the Word of God. This is something still going on today in many of our protestant and southern Baptist churches.....sadly. The upside is, that I believe that many of them are turning around. We cannot condone sin; but goodness gracious when you walk out of the church house, we ought to feel better than when we walk in. I truly hope you read the Book of Matthew without blinders on and predisposed theology. Read it for what the Word says to you, not what some church house preacher says.

KeithC is a very interesting fellow indeed and very well versed on history and basic human nature. I think he believes and follows the Golden Rule indefinitely; however, he just sees a different aspect that we all may be able to learn from.

I for one, believe that Jesus Christ is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. I also believe He is 100% anti-religion. Jesus Christ did not come down to this earth and die on the cross for our sins to form any religion; which only separates and divides. He came down here to save mankind from the predicament we are in because of our sins.

That's how I see it, and I hope I did not offend anyone. Chancey

Literally everything is proof that God exists. Without God there would be nothing.

Overall, everything is good, including most people, so God is good. Also I think the act of creation itself is good.

I think we are made in God's image. Likely we are not made in God's physical image, but in his reasoning and trying image.

I don't know what God wants from us. It seems very unlikely that God wants our praise and blind obedience. If he wanted that he would have stopped with a dog like being. I think God likely wants us to be more like him.

I believe God used evolution, but knew how things were likely to turn out. I think he definitely created numerous master pieces for us to enjoy and appreciate.

I think we are all much more closely related and in some ways more of the same individual, with some differences, then we understand. I think most of us trappers probably share a huge amount of DNA. I think we are a type.

I think the best thing to do in regards to other people is to treat them well, but not thoughtlessly well. Jesus's commandment "Love thy neighbors as thyself." makes sense to a fairly high point. Past that point, I see nothing wrong with aggressively correcting or even fatally correcting some forms of behavior, such as theft, child molestation and unjustified homicide.

I am more curious about most things than most people. I have lots of disparate interests. I really look forward to meeting God and learning.

Keith

Very insightful Chauncey. I appreciate what you wrote and no offense taken. I do want to say that though I no longer attend church and have no interest in returning to one it does not mean I do not believe in a higher power. I just haven't made up my mind what that higher power is. I wholeheartedly believe in the supernatural and ghosts and such. Just don't believe that church is where I need to be to be in contact with a higher power. I am not an atheist. For the last few years I have been doing some studying on the beliefs of my ancestors before Christianity killed or converted them.

I don't feel that most of the posters that post what many call non-believers is really the case for those that write post many find anti-Christian. Millions of people may very well be strong believers and have deep roots in strong spiritual beliefs and don't need to be part of a traditional worship, church, synod or autocratic system. Especially if that church or persons in leadership were or are abusive, controlling and exhibiting behavior that they feel is not the spirituality they were seeking. Yes I do agree that we are all born to sin, but I also feel that if I work very hard on growing spiritually I won't practice hard to be better at sinning or believing that those that I disagree with are more sinful then I am. Having and creating a strong faith and belief and working a strong spiritual live style I feel is very freeing for many and to me that is part of what God's hope for me was to be more free and secure in my faith.

Bryce

I said God, not Jesus. Look at how God is portrayed in the Old Testament. Even New Testament God is not portrayed as kind. New Testament God needed appeased with his son's death.

Stan Lee wrote "With great power comes great responsibility". I believe God has incredible power and is therefore incredibly responsible for everything. I can't see how a responsible being like God, would create someone to suffer terribly, forever for any reason, much less for just not worshipping him and his son properly. I don't think God is that petty and vindictive. I think God is fantastically good.

Keith

Funny thing about all this talk of organized religion. Jesus did not profess organized religion. In fact his message was in opposition to the organized religion at the time. Many churches and denominations have added the organized parts of Christianity over 2000 years, but if you ignore all that and consider Jesus' original message, it has nothing to do with organized religion.

This is why many "organized" denominations of Christianity are in decline but the fastest growing and most successful churches of today are not organized and are focused solely on the original authority of the bible and Jesus.

Well, he wasn't very nice to that poor little fig tree that didn't have any figs, lol.

Liberal theology, by definition, began to prosper in the hearts and minds of theologians after the great Renaissance period in Europe. Tremendous learning in university settings spurned an academia that taught "great things." This gave way to what historians called the Enlightened period and all its scientific, medical, and technological advancements. All this to bring us to today in 2021.

What is liberal theology? It is churchmen who themselves picked and chose what they believe of the Bible. Prior to the liberalists, the Bible was always deemed to be Inspired and Inerrant in it's canonical form, (with schisms between Protestants and Roman Catholics over 7 books). The Didache is authenticated and one of the earliest books of the early church and is honored by a great many historical theological scholars also.

Here we are today. The faithful await and anticipate Jesus' 2nd Coming to judge the living and the dead, as is promised as Christ's own spoken and recorded Gospel message. We are thus still in whats known as the intertestimental age, better known as the Church Age, begun at Pentecost (Acts 2) just as Jesus had promised Peter. The ekklesia (gathering) is a vital part of the Christian faith and will be until Christ returns. If it were not, Christ wouldn't have commissioned it with such clarity.

In response to liberal theologian churchmen, who picked the portions of Scripture they agreed with (the same mentality us humans are now marinated in.... "you know what I'd do if I were God...", many pastors and preachers vehemently tried to combat the liberalism by swinging too far the other way and preaching the Bible as a means to an end (how to book), or dam_nation, or _ell fire. All the liberalists and those opposed were people just like us. Many were people, trying to sort out infinity with their finite minds and most we think had good intentions, but it just hasn't gone as well as any of them expected.

Why?
There is a component of the Christian ekklesia, the church - not as a building - but as a group of people created by the Triune God that was Christ's Misseo Dei. Christ's mission. Christ did not come to judge (the 1st time) but to be a shepherd and a savior. Pretty simple but then humans get into the fray and start to define, what is a shepherd, and what is a savior, and do we even believe there was a God-man and then the spears come out. You don't need to be a Christian to bring spears to a fight. You need to lay them down to be a Christian.

I hold a dispensational theology and simply put, I like many, believe there have been dispensations, or outpourings (revelations) from God to STOP us humans from destroying more than we already destroy. I hold there were 7 such times and Christ's coming was certainly one of them.
Each dispensation comes with mandate from God and a responsiveness due from the faithful as part of God's Creation - Redemption - Restoration narrative (Bible)

People were fighting before Christ.
People still fight.
No temple or synagogue was perfect before Christ.
No church has been perfect after Christ.
People had false theologies before Christ (especially about the Messiah).
People still have false theologies.
People did what was right in their own eyes before Jesus.
People still most often do what is right in their own eyes.

I'm glad for the chance to make our own choices with a rationing brain. Thank you Lord for that crafting.
When I get to heaven, I might check out the film that tells us why He allowed all the headache that accompanies personal choice.
Glad God does on the one hand, but sorta wish He didn't on the other.

Don't blame God for the doings of people and don't fall for the Prince of darkness' lie that the church was never anointed. Stay at home. Study your Bible. Find God yourself. Never forget every heretic in the Christian Church history had Bible verses to back "their" ideas up. The ekklesia is where we can reproof and correct one another (2 Tim 3:16) so we need each other.

If that weren't true, why then was Christ so explicit in setting up His Church until He comes again?
The Church was anointed by Jesus and ushered in by the same power that rose Him from the grave. The Holy Spirit.
We are the body of Christ and there's a whole wonderful doctrine of it but simply said we are the body of Christ and Scripture is explicit in that body being an ekklesia: an assembly.
Same as in Heaven.
The purpose is even the same according to Scripture; to display God's Mercy, Grace, and Wisdom (Rom 9:23-24; Eph 1:4; 2:7-10; 3:10; 4:11-13; Matt 29:19-20; Phil 2:15; Col 1:22 and more.
Church is where we get to practice "loving one another(s)" amongst sinners!
It ain't easy and sadly the Western church in recent centuries has become even more and more like culture = "what's in it for me and what do I like" worship rather than how it was commissioned.
But good things are on the move in quite a few churches to return to the orthodox worship and reasoning for why Jesus built His Church.

By the way, this help is for believers, not the unbelievers. It's all foolishness to unbelievers as Paul told believers often.

I kinda look at it like a trappers convention. Trappers all gather, one bond in common, all with different views, but all trappers. Some fighting breaks out sure. But not too many get killed.
Pride is the sin that rears up. Or envy maybe. And trappers conventions have this also. So does Tman.
To say the Church, or a Christian, is to be white as snow is to listen to the whispers of the wrong team. Those with the dark jerseys and their legions are many.

When Christ comes again, we'll get the perfect answers but until then we do the best we can.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark: That may be one of your best post, thanks for your time.

X2 Mark. Excellent post! Thank you for taking the time to share!

Liberalism infected most of the mainline denominations in this country decades ago. Someone mentioned John R. Rice in a thread a while back. He was in the forefront of fighting what was referred to many years ago as "modernism".

I have a dear friend, an elderly man who is a retired Methodist pastor who couldn't explain the gospel if his life depended on it. He graduated from Yale Divinity School. These churches are dead and serve as little more than social gatherings for those with itching ears. Women and gays in the pulpit, denying the inspiration of scripture, denying the virgin birth, the ecumenical movement...

Maybe I'm simple minded but when it comes to the things of God and His word it all boils down to one simple question. Yes or No

If Yes, then He is absolute and infallible, PERIOD. He cannot be God otherwise.

If No, then disregard and carry on without giving it a second thought.

But as we can all clearly see that is not how we humans interact with the very idea of God and His word.

I actually have more respect, and much pity, for the true agnostics who chose the latter. At least they answered the question.

Most seem to go through life claiming an answer while by action demonstrating they do not hold to the answer. Whether it be the liberal theologian who says yes but tries incessantly to inject fallibility into the word or the atheist who actively mocks that which he denies.

Thank you Chancey for judging me fairly and accurately. I strive to do the same to others for the most part.

Jarhead