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Ethics Question

Posted By: Blaine County

Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:33 PM

I was on the tractor all weekend and was thinking a lot about trapping. I thought through the following question:

If trappers and trapping organizations are sincere in their statements that trapping is a humane and effective way to manage wildlife resources, are trappers somehow ethically bound to trap even during low fur prices?

In my opinion, a guy with the knowledge and equipment does have some responsibility to keep trapping during low fur prices. Or maybe to teach someone else how to trap or to pass on his equipment.

In full disclosure, I have never made a profit trapping. I run a decent sized line (by Oklahoma standards--10 dozen-ish traps out at a time for a month) but it is to manage my farms, help out my neighbors and because I really enjoy it.

What are your thoughts?
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:36 PM

If you wanna trap, then trap. If you don’t then don’t.

Pretty simple. Everyone has their reasons to be out there, or not.
Need a cheer section?
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:37 PM

And how is your post about ethics? More about personal motivation, it seems.
Posted By: Pawnee

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:39 PM

I think is our obligation to trap every year. Take the good years with the bad
Posted By: Blaine County

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by mad_mike
If you wanna trap, then trap. If you don’t then don’t.

Pretty simple. Everyone has their reasons to be out there, or not.
Need a cheer section?


Not really.

It was just a question that I was thinking through and I thought maybe some trappers might have an opinion. Thank you for yours.
Posted By: Blaine County

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by mad_mike
And how is your post about ethics? More about personal motivation, it seems.


Not really personal motivation either. I was reading one of my trapping magazines and there was a bunch talk about heritage, managing wildlife, etc. If that this message we send as a group, do we not have a sincere obligation to live it--regardless of fur prices?
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Blaine County
Originally Posted by mad_mike
If you wanna trap, then trap. If you don’t then don’t.

Pretty simple. Everyone has their reasons to be out there, or not.
Need a cheer section?


Not really.

It was just a question that I was thinking through and I thought maybe some trappers might have an opinion. Thank you for yours.

I have always been of the thought that a trapper traps. For management, pleasure, and then profit.

My 2c.
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Blaine County
Originally Posted by mad_mike
And how is your post about ethics? More about personal motivation, it seems.


Not really personal motivation either. I was reading one of my trapping magazines and there was a bunch talk about heritage, managing wildlife, etc. If that this message we send as a group, do we not have a sincere obligation to live it--regardless of fur prices?


Yes
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:18 PM

Well the way I see it, when things operate on a free market, then things would be able to cycle out and would work to keep things in balance. But since if someone buying fur or leather clothing risk getting red paint thrown on them or worse then so much for a free market. When one leg of the equation is tied kinda like the hostages in Platos' "Allegory of the Cave" and are manipulated by a squad of puppets then I would think that would shift the obligation from those whose once operated under a free system and kept things in balance back to those causing the log jam. Let the PETA group take care of the problem they created.
Now I know that won't happen and more than likely government intervention will have to help at some point. Most likely with a bounty system to collect the tails and throw the rest of the natural resource in the ditch to rot.
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:28 PM

The animals will live and die without your hand involved. So, might as well play. If it interests you.

Still don’t grasp how you trapping or not due to market value is an ethics issue.
Posted By: Law Dog

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:33 PM

You cannot stockpile wildlife the land will hold what it will hold.
Posted By: Redknot

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:34 PM

My thoughts?

You need to spend less time on your tractor!
Posted By: Scuba1

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:40 PM

I have not sold hair of fur in decades yet I still trap and shoot . My reasons are mostly for management. Right now turkey numbers are down around these parts and song dog numbers are up. So i'll try to put an dent in the coyote population. Thats the only reason I do it. I should get one of those electronic call gadgets and learn how to use it as well but right now its not in the budget.
Posted By: hippie

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:44 PM

Pleasure should never be a reason. imo
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by hippie
Pleasure should never be a reason.

Is time spent in the outdoors not a pleasure?
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:48 PM

For the OP. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethic

For hippie: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pleasure
Posted By: Blaine County

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by mad_mike
The animals will live and die without your hand involved. So, might as well play. If it interests you.

Still don’t grasp how you trapping or not due to market value is an ethics issue.


If we say as a group we need to trap because of X (and do not talk about Y) and then do not trap because of Y, that is arguably unethical.

If we only trap for money, we should say we need to trap for money.

You are getting caught up on the title to the post. Let me know how you want it renamed or start your own.
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:51 PM

Got it BC. Still clear as mud
Posted By: Blaine County

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Redknot
My thoughts?

You need to spend less time on your tractor!


Tractor time is good for the brain. I zone out and come up with some of my best ideas (or most obscure questions)!
Posted By: Getting There

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:01 PM

I think it is odd, the people that make the big bucks very seldom set a trap. They just keep putting more regulation on trappers.
The are your DNR. They want more deer to get more money but if you hit one with a car they no longer have any interest in them.
In Michigan I would say at least 45% of all auto repairs are do to hitting deer. Around 50,000 a year.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Getting There
I think it is odd, the people that make the big bucks very seldom set a trap. They just keep putting more regulation on trappers.
The are your DNR. They want more deer to get more money but if you hit one with a car they no longer have any interest in them.
In Michigan I would say at least 45% of all auto repairs are do to hitting deer. Around 50,000 a year.


And who feeds those deer for "free" I guess ?
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:06 PM

There are no free rides in life. Someone always pays.
Posted By: Hoosier71

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:08 PM

Pretty clear to me you weren't looking for a cheer section. I get what you are saying. If we say trapping is a management tool and animals suffer WITHOUT trapping, then should we not feel obligated to trap whether or not there is a paycheck? Interesting question.
Posted By: atrapper

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:09 PM

I think trapping can absolutely be used as a population dynamics tool. Just ask Delta Waterfowl. That said, an individual trapper can do very little to effect animal populations in a broad area in my opinion. Some animals, like muskrats are near impossible to trap out. Others like coyotes you can maybe trap out of a few sections but in all cases, with favorable habitat and adequate food, new animals will always move in. I’ve always liked to believe that I was somehow doing my part in helping animal populations but as others have said, it’s really the big guy upstairs that controls the variables that dictate animal populations. Not me. So, from an ethical standpoint what I personally do doesn’t ethically mean much to nature but if it gives me joy and makes me (and land owners) happy then I guess it’s ethically important to humanity.
Posted By: Foxpaw

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Originally Posted by Getting There
I think it is odd, the people that make the big bucks very seldom set a trap. They just keep putting more regulation on trappers.
The are your DNR. They want more deer to get more money but if you hit one with a car they no longer have any interest in them.
In Michigan I would say at least 45% of all auto repairs are do to hitting deer. Around 50,000 a year.


And who feeds those deer for "free" I guess ?


My crystal ball says CRP is in the mix.
Posted By: HayDay

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:14 PM

Does a guy with traps have an ethical obligation to use them? No.

Society and the resource benefits when he does, but that is up to him. The ethical argument applies that the opportunity to use them remain, as again there are benefits when he does. But it's not mandatory.
Posted By: hippie

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:22 PM



You might get pleasure, or "satisfaction" as your dictionary explains it, but I don't see that as the "reason" I take an animals life if by hunting or trapping.

To each his own I guess in today's world tho.
Posted By: Yes sir

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:25 PM

I understand your point and have pondered it myself. I think some trappers are getting a benefit confused as the motivation. I believe the large majority trap for the $ or the recreational side of it and the benefit to nature is a benefit of it. And I worry that if we try to build are defensive on a falsehood it could hurt us in the long run. Most trappers don't know the animal #s close enough to make a management decision. And don't know what a target population # would be for there area.
Posted By: The Beav

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:27 PM

Our WI coyotes suck but I love to trap them so I will just keep doing It. And the only rats I have caught In the last few years are those I'm getting paid to catch.
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by hippie


You might get pleasure, or "satisfaction" as your dictionary explains it, but I don't see that as the "reason" I take an animals life if by hunting or trapping.

To each his own I guess in today's world tho.


Sounds more like “morals” vs. “ethics”.

I do enjoy killing animals. Make no mistake about it. Fur, food, or fun.
Posted By: bblwi

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:47 PM

Most if not all trapping organizations use the wildlife management factor for defending our right to trap and control animal species to prevent the extinction of prey species, minimize disease and offer a harvest option during a time of year when the harvested animals have value and this is for the most part done at a minimal to very low cost to citizens and taxpayers. Now from my perspective that is the statements we use to continue to work with our wildlife biologists and managers and to keep the AR organizations somewhat at bay. When we walk through the gate of the organizations and look at where the rubber meets the road we as individual trappers for the most part do lip service to those ideals and do what we want when we want and then complain about how others impact our heritage and have to subject ourselves to numerous regulations and rules. If even half the the members on this forum trapped their lines with few weeks of high intensity the number of animals removed would not impact the overall numbers enough to change the population overall. Why then are we not seeing 5 fold the numbers of animals we did 5 years ago (coon as an example)? Mother nature will answer the bell if we don't and landowners, home owners, farmers etc. develop their own harvest procedures when trappers can not be counted on to fulfill the need. We are lucky that antis continue to use the scare and shame aspect of trapping being barbaric and obsolete etc. and that their efforts are targeted toward the ignorant that have money. Any educated US citizen that can read the reports on fur harvest sales by state can easily see when trappers slack off and let the traps hang in the shed.

Bryce
Posted By: Tom Fisher

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:48 PM

It's overthunk, I can't not trap!----It's a good time to be a trapper!
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Fisher
It's overthunk, I can't not trap!----It's a good time to be a trapper!

Exactly. Sit there and think about why or why not? Get out there and trap. Kill, eat, and don’t be a Mary.
Posted By: Redknot

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Blaine County
Originally Posted by Redknot
My thoughts?

You need to spend less time on your tractor!


Tractor time is good for the brain. I zone out and come up with some of my best ideas (or most obscure questions)!


When I zone out in the tractor my rows start to get very wavey!! Really unfortunate when cultivating!!
Posted By: Diggerman

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by mad_mike
Got it BC. Still clear as mud

take a deep breath, open your mind just a little, His question is a good one.
Posted By: Turtledale

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 07:53 PM

Without us trapping mother nature will take it's course, whatever that will be. With us we trapping and shooting we will manage the land to the resources we see fit and try to manipulate to what we think is correct.
So no just because we trap it doesn't mean we should no matter what. Who are we to play God. I would think without out our intervention the land would return to what it should be after disease, survival of the fittest etc. takes hold
All that said I will trap every year to some extent because I love doing it and don't waste what I've taken. There is pleasure involved and I see nothing wrong with that
I also hunt and fish for meat and take great pleasure in doing so.
Posted By: Bob

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 08:16 PM

If we call ourselves conservationists then we have the ethical duty to do what needs to be done for the health of the overall ecosystem. Sometimes that means trapping/hunting a certain species that is booming, and sometimes that means letting your traps collect dust to allow a species to come back. Sometimes that means feeding deer and elk after a dry summer followed by a very cold and snowy winter. Sometimes it means installing guzzlers in strategic places during a drought.

Trapping is a tool to use for the betterment of the overall ecosystem. Wether or not we are ethically obligated to use it is very situational.
Posted By: Bob

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Turtledale
Without us trapping mother nature will take it's course, whatever that will be. With us we trapping and shooting we will manage the land to the resources we see fit and try to manipulate to what we think is correct.
So no just because we trap it doesn't mean we should no matter what. Who are we to play God. I would think without out our intervention the land would return to what it should be after disease, survival of the fittest etc. takes hold
All that said I will trap every year to some extent because I love doing it and don't waste what I've taken. There is pleasure involved and I see nothing wrong with that
I also hunt and fish for meat and take great pleasure in doing so.


We don’t play God when we intervene in nature. He gave us dominion over all the creatures on earth. What that means to me is in order to honor God we must care for the ecosystem and be a part of it. He gave us the animals to use the animals as we see fit, but also the responsibility to care for His creation.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 08:27 PM

Does a real trapper, you know the guy that dreams about it at night and reads about it during the day, ever need a reason to trap?

It’s in the blood.

No reason needed.
Posted By: James

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 08:31 PM

I don't think a trapper has any more obligation to trap than a non-trapper has.

Jim
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Diggerman
Originally Posted by mad_mike
Got it BC. Still clear as mud

take a deep breath, open your mind just a little, His question is a good one.

If you want to trap, then do so.
If you don’t want to then don’t.

Ain’t nothing to it.
Posted By: backroadsarcher

Re: Ethics Question - 07/26/21 10:43 PM

I trap a small area every year. Some years produce more than others. The land owners in this area are really into the deer. So after deer season I have a good time chasing coyotes and trying to get better doing it. I guess I can say I trap because I enjoy it and try to help the neighbors out by trying to keep the coyote population in check if I can. Lately my beaver trapping is done in the same way. I have only trapped areas where the population is really good and the land owners want them taken care of. This has helped me over the years, usually don't have problems getting on private land to do what I like and help to manage a little bit.
Posted By: Boco

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 12:52 AM

Here we trap to keep our lines healthy (productive).This is just protecting our investments in our registered traplines.
There are management parameters that can be worked around due to fluctuating fur prices.Those parameters do not include undertrapping when prices are low or overtrapping.when prices are high.Doing either of those will damage the lines productivity long term.
The rights to be the sole manager on a registered trapline comes with the responsibility to manage the fur on that line to a productive level.
No one forces you to manage registered traplines-you can give up the line and liquidate your investments if you are not willing to take the responsibility for it.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Blaine County
I was on the tractor all weekend and was thinking a lot about trapping. I thought through the following question:

If trappers and trapping organizations are sincere in their statements that trapping is a humane and effective way to manage wildlife resources, are trappers somehow ethically bound to trap even during low fur prices?


my question would be: "are lawyers ethically bound to illustrate the Truth in court with their wordplay?"
Posted By: Savell

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 01:19 AM

What in the jumped up (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) is goin on in here?
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Savell
What in the jumped up (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) is goin on in here?

Made Mike is living up to his Mad adjective.
Posted By: Savell

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 01:24 AM

... I like Mad Mike lol ... y’all have fun
Posted By: Diggerman

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Savell
What in the jumped up (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) is goin on in here?

I could explain it to ya, but I can not understand it to ya.
Posted By: Savell

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 01:29 AM

... well, looks like you need to work on your ability to project your understanding
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: Ethics Question - 07/27/21 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pike River
Originally Posted by Savell
What in the jumped up (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) is goin on in here?

Made Mike is living up to his Mad adjective.

grin I thought we were having a discussion about ethics.

Ain’t “made” about it.
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