How the Bible came to be.

I've had a couple PMs with a member talking about how certain books of the Bible were added to the canon of scripture while others weren't deemed inspired.

I thought this might be a better of way of discussing it and gathering input from others. As always, naysayers are welcome.

Thoughts and insights?

I don't know enough about how the books of the bible we're decided to comment intelligently on the subject, but it's something I'm interested in. I'll certainly follow along.

Revelation was a discounted book for a long time. Scholars are not agreed on who even wrote it. When it was being put together by Constantine’s crew they could not even agree on whether or not Jesus was divine. The goal was to unite the empire under a common religion. It is why so much of it has pagan origins. It is still being translated and “interpreted “. The biggest problem is the lack of original documents. If there are any the vatican is not letting anyone see them.

I know that Grace is sufficient Like LG I don't know enough about the book picking to contribute much.

Ya our constitution is still being" translated and interpreted" and it is written in our language not that long ago, not only is the original document available but loads of additional writing that lay out the writers mind sets. The meaning and intent is clear yet here we are.

Where are the original documents? I was led to believe all still in existence were written at least 200 years after the originals.

Not written, copied.

Was the book of Enoch originally included in the Bible, or was it rejected because it didn’t fit the Pope’s agenda. I’ve heard it originally was and then tossed.

Does it really matter?

OK there is a series on history channel that is BANNED books of the bible. I didn't watch it first round but did on demand. Very interesting. There are passages written by authors of the bible that was left out of the compilation of the books. Almost all of them in some way shed light on a different Jesus and the story as I was raised to know it. For example I THINK it was Luke or could been mark wrote about Jesus's wife. But that didn't follow KING JAMES VERSION story line so it wasn't included . Tons of more examples !!

So what if Jesus had a wife.

Theory only in other words Twilight zone:

One problem would be if Jesus had kids, then we would have cults that would say you have to been in the actual DNA or bloodline of Jesus in order for Jesus blood to redeem you. All others not in the family ==Good Luck your on your own.

Ask King james his version most follow.

You can get married and not have kids , just saying..............

We have cults now over moon beams and other dreams. Him not having kids hasn’t stopped cults. lol

Here is some on the writings, very long so copied out some.

https://enslavedbyfaith.com/analysis-of-languages-of-the-old-testament/

Canaanite language and the Phoenician Influence.

The dominant local culture in Canaan between 1200 BCE to 800 BCE were the Phoenicians and their language and alphabets were used in all of Canaan. The Phoenician were ship builders, merchants and they traded with all the nations in the area as far as modern Italy.

Canaan and particularly the Phoenician city states had a very special cultural and commercial relationship with ancient Egyptians, evidence of which exist from around 2800 BCE.

The relationship covered trade in cedar and material culture, including the development of what was to become the 22 alphabets of the Canaanite/Phoenician writing.[2]

Because of the prominence of the Phoenician material culture in Canaan, a lot of research went into understanding their history and writing. These studies led to the identification and division of the Canaanite writings into two main groups: Proto-Canaanite (those writing found in Canaan) and Proto-Sinaitic (those found in Sinai desert).

The Phoenician writing emerged from these Proto Canaanite/Sinaitic writings, which themselves originated from Egyptian Hieratic script. The Egyptian Hieratic was a writing style which existed side by side with the better known hieroglyphs. It was in wide use in ancient Egyptian commercial transactions, but within Egypt and foreign their trading partners.

It was in the process of these foreign commercial transactions that the hieratic was adapted the the Canaanite language, creating the proto-Canaanite script.

The Phoenician emerged from these proto- Canaanite script and attained its most advanced form around 1050 BCE, showing sophistication and improvement from its original Proto–Canaanite/Sinaitic origin.

With its 22 letters of its alphabet in place, the Phoenician set out to leave their mark around the world. A comparison of the 22 letters of the Phoenician alphabets to what was offered in later centuries as the Hebrew alphabet, show no discernable difference at all.

Due to the sometimes repressive dominance of Christianity, the historicity of the events described in the Old Testament were not challenged until 1500 years later. When that challenge started,, it became necessary for the people who claim the historicity of the Bible to look for evidence to support the claim that biblical events were historical.

The earliest challenge was on the authorship of the first five books of the Old Testament, which books the Bible and tradition claim that Moses wrote.

To sustain the claim that Moses was the author, they had to show that the ancient Israelites had some kind of writing, even a rudimentary one that Moses could have used in writing the first five books of the Bible.

The search for Hbrew language was undertaken while complerely ignoring the fact that according to the Bible the only education Moses could have received was in Egyptian writing system and that woild have been the language he would have written in and not in Hebrew.

With emerging evidence that the Bible is nothing but allegorical myth, written for theological purpose and not a historical book, the pressure was on the advocates of the historicity of the Bible to provide tangible proof showing historical validity of the stories and Moses’ authorship.

The quest to prove the Bible stories as historical book led many Christian archeologists in early 1900 CE, the most prominent being William F. Albright, to go to Palestine and Egypt looking for such proof. Their approach was simple, they assumed that the Bible was history and with time they will find proof.

Bible versus History. The Exploration to find proof.

With that mind set they were quick to offer any archeological discovery as proof of the Bible, even where it does not apply. One of such application was the Proto-Canaanite writings, many of which were found in Canaan and the Egyptian Sinai.

Those false claims ushered in the debate as to whether the Proto-Canaanite writings that evolved into the Phoenician writing/alphabets were also possibly Proto-Hebrew/Paleo-Hebrew.

The proto-Canaanite script cannot be proto- Hebrew for the simple common sense reason that if we take the Bible claim that the Israelites spent between 215-430 years in Egypt. It is unrealistic to ascribe to them scripts that were in use in Canaan at the time they were supposed to be in bondage in Egypt.

Modern archeologists propose that the emergence of Israelite identity separate from its Canaanite roots was a gradual process and took a definite form around 700 BCE.

According to the proposal, the introduction of the Yahweh cult in Canaan by the Shasu, led a group of Canaanites who fanatically embraced Yahweh worship to distance themselves from their Canaanite cultute and religions.

They fantasized of the exclusive national worship of Yahweh, even if it required the killing of other Canaanites that worshipped other Canaanite gods. This began the polemics against the dominant Canaanite deity, Baal and less so against the chief Canaanite deity El.

The religious practice of Canaan and the group that later emerged as Israelite was polytheist, and remained so, even after the story of the discovery of the Book of the Laws of Moses during the reign of Josiah by the priest Hilkaih.

The story of the discovery of the book of laws has problems with its historicity. The first major problem being that the book of laws was attributed to Moses and modern scholarly consensus based on centuries of archeological excavation is that Moses was not a historical figure and the events in his life were theological myth.

The question now becomes how can there be a discovery of a writing ascribed to someone that did not have a historical existence. The point i raised earlier of the language of Moses’ education bocomes relevant on the question of the language of the book of laws.

The only option we have, shared by many scholars is that the book of laws was a seventh century BCE creation, heralding the resurgence of Yahweh worship.

This book found by Hilkiah has been suggested by some scholars of the Deuteronomistic History school as the foundation for the book of Deuteronomy and was also the foundation around which all the first four Old Testament books were written.

The content of the book of laws is presented as new information to Josiah that he was never aware of. It is surprising that all the people of Judah including their elites and Kings forgot the 10 commandments for centuries, because the writing had been misplaced in the ‘abandoned’ temple.

Josiah’s reaction shows that he was hearing the information contained in the book for the first time, because if the story of the Exodus and the 10 commandments were part of the social myth at that time, there is no way the followers of Yahweh would not have been spreading it, by oral tradition.

There is no way Yahweh worship and its core teaching including the only laws Yahweh gave to them could have been so relegated to the point that Josiah would not have heard about it before the discovery of the book of laws. 2 Kings 22:11-14. 2 Kings 23:4-7.

As the story goes, after the book of laws was read to Josiah, he embarked on large scale religious suppression, destroying places and objects of worship of others that were not Yahweh followers as in 2 Kings 23:20, he slaughtered the High priests and burned human bones on them.

It is surprising to me that most of the writers on this topic simply refer to what Josiah did as religious reformation without acknowledging the pain and devastation caused by his religious intolerance.

The book proved to be a very effective tool in advancement of the interest of Yahweh. Some scholars have proposed that the book found was the skeletal version of the Book of Deuteronomy[img]https://enslavedbyfaith.com/analysis-of-languages-of-the-old-testament/[/img]

Well, nothing... but if he did why was it eliminated from the books that made it into the Bible?

Interesting post though. Like others I have no idea about why certain books were chosen but am curious.

Writings such as Torah and Talmud were oral until written later.

Then up closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls the Essenes was a big part of handling of the scrolls, I think?

Fire away , I don;t know much maybe some of what I said is a place to start. You know they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,

Because it wasn’t important?

Two prevalent theories. 1. Christians believe the Bible is what God inspired man to put in it period.

2. Mostly nonbelievers that want to discredit say : The Bible was written that way to give the church, king, and men power. In that order. After all the church was more powerful than the king, the king had divine right to rule, and men to control their wife's and families.

I can see both having a valid argument in a debate and the 2nd highly likely giving man's corruption. But I'm a Christian so believe all the Bible not just parts and subscrib to the first one.

The divine right of kings comes from the "fact" they were descended from Jesus through his son with Mary Magdalene. They had a daughter as well. Jesus is in the pedigree of many thousands of people, including all current European Royals and all US Presidents, but Harding. Most current Christians hate and belittle this.

Of course it's possible that ancient kings put Jesus into their pedigrees to better control people. If so they did a beyond excellent job, documenting it, even putting in other reunited family lines to explain how Jesus's descendants ended up in Cornwall and Wales, combined with Roman import and tax records predating and immediately prior to Jesus's death. If it's a fraud. It's a remarkably good fraud.

Check out www.familysearch.org, if you're curious and open minded.

Keith

No doubt the Council of Nicea had a few issue but it was a start. it was not until MARTIN LUTHER that it was determined that men should read the bible. The church never wanted common man to read let alone read the bible. In light of that there are many books that have been written and re written (Greek, Latin, ancient dialects), but one theme was never changed and that was the math or numbering or the ability to count, a 7 was always a 7 and most of these scribes did not major in math. So when you have multiple books that were included or not included but they have a common math thread it would have to carry some weight especially in prophecy. TIME TIMES AND A HALF OF TIME, the math or line is in may books on the end end of time. I have listed a few below including from the Quran (Islam believes Jesus was a Muslem and will return to fight the anti christ or their version of him. X 2X AND .5 X is also the key to Geometry, think in degrees 30 60 15: you can solve any geometry problem by adding them together, 15 30 45 60 90 180 360 all based on time times and a half of time. (the key to calculus) so from Genesis, Enoch, Daniel, Revalations to the Quran, all you need is a rope belt and a plumb bob to be as smart as Solomon. Main stream Christians call it theology, Muslims call it history. What is unfolding in the Middle East is ancient prophecy coming to light. Its not going to be pretty.


https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/46623/MESV6-3.pdf
al-Masikh al-Dajjal) appears from the East.Among the signs of the Dajjal are that he is blind in one eye,has frizzy hair, and on his forehead blazes the word kafir [unbeliever] that Muslims see and understand, whether they be literate or illiterate.17 The Dajjal roams the earth (except for Mecca and Medina,—or: the holy mosques of Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem and Tor—, which are guarded by angels).18 He travels with enormous speed. He tempts people away from their true faith by way of “pseudo-miracles,” that is, preternatural feats— (interchangeably) a (cold) fire and a (blazing) garden. Wherever he goes, he brings with him great wealth: rivers, mountains of bread, and honey. He can produce rain and the greening of the earth, but this is always followed by destruction. His reign on earth lasts only forty days, except that the first day equals a year, the second a month,the third a week, and the rest of his days are like human days.19

Dajjal (ANTI Christ) His reign on earth lasts only forty days, except that the first day equals a year, the second a month, the third a week, and the rest of his days are like human days.19
First day = 360
Second day = 30
Third day = 7
Rest as human days = 37

http://bibleview.org/en/bible/genesis/1100years/
3 After Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son just like him, that is, according to his own likeness, and named him Seth. 4 Adam lived another 800 years, fathering other sons and daughters after he had fathered Seth. 5 Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he fathered Enosh. 7 After he fathered Enosh, Seth lived 807 years, fathering other sons and daughters. 8 Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then died.
9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he fathered Kenan. 10 After he fathered Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years, fathering other sons and daughters. 11 Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then died.
12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he fathered Mahalalel. 13 After he fathered Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years, fathering other sons and daughters. 14 Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then died.
15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he fathered Jared. 16 After he fathered Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years, fathering other sons and daughters. 17 Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then died.



18When Jared had lived 162 years, he fathered Enoch. 19 After he fathered Enoch, Jared lived 800 years, fathering other sons and daughters. 20 Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then died.
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah. 22 After he fathered Methuselah, Enoch communed with God for 300 years and fathered other sons and daughters. 23 Enoch lived a total of 365 years, 24 communing with God—and then he was there no longer, because God had taken him.

From the birth of Adam till GOD took Enoch in the heaven was 987 years

Time = X = 282
Times = 2x = 564
Half of Time= .5x = 141
Total 987


Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

TIME = X
TIMES = 2X
DIVIDING OF TIME = .5X

It would be easier just to start with Calvin !

Yeah this whole post went beyond me real quick, lol.

How so?

Believers marvel at the wonder of God's narrative story, God breathed and revealed for us through the ages by the Holy Spirit, in spite of every human attempt to marginalize it, cast doubt upon it, or completely toss it out.
Like Israel, Holy Scripture remains.

Teach Truth. Love Well.

Blessings,
Mark

A guys clock stopped and he needed the time to reset it. So he called the radio station to get the time. He thought about how accurate their time was so he asked the manager where they got their time. He said he got it from the watchmaker. So the guy called the watchmaker and asked him where he got his time. He said he got it from the radio station !

Book banners and book burners from day one of the written or created world. I think we have done very, very well as a world to have as much progress as we have with all the "inspired" editing that has been going on for say 4500 years. To me the future looks bright and our younger generation can move whatever process they choose to move far, far quicker then we ever could. Kind of eye opening and not really that surprising that way back then we had persons who were stepping in for God to determine the path that should be taken.
I think it is really spiritual that a few devotees hiding and making secret signs of fish etc. and in the vast minority created from that seed the major religion of the known world in just under 300 years with no internet, phone, car, twitter etc. To me that is spiritual the rest to me is politics disguised in religion to enhance those that feel they have it right and others are wrong.

Bryce

I'm reminded of the wheat and the tares.

Do we serve under the new or old testament . ? Careful LOL Big Debate at thanksgiving one time . Got 3 preachers together at the meal .

New

OK here we go Where might the ten commandments be found ?

But as Jesus said in Matthew 22, if you follow just 2, all the others naturally fall into place.

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This doesn't prove anything I just find it interesting.

The historian Josephus said there was 22 books in the Bible originally. There were 27 books added in the New testament, totaling 49, a number of significance to the Jews, being it would have been equal to seven times seven.

The Old testament was divided into three parts. The law, the prophets, and the writings. The structure Jesus verified in the New testament in Scripture.(Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms[writings] concerning Me.”

The New testament was divided into four parts, the gospels, the general epistles, Paul's epistles, and revelation.

Making the Bible in it's original form divided into seven parts, again, a number significant to the Jews. Seven signified completion and perfection.


When Jesus said "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all."

He likely mentioned those two because Abel was the first martyr and Zachariah was the last martyr in the last book of the Jewish Canon of the Bible in its original order.

Man I love these debates !!! One question that will stump 90 % of beleivers is the wisemen question. Ask them how many wise men came to the manger?
Think about it . I know preachers that have missed this question. You guys will find this easy tho.

I’m impressed yt30.

They were letters to begin with not in book form or for that matter not even divided into chapters or verses.

2nd Thessalonians 3:17

There was 3 wise men, cause I was one of them in the 8th grade play. I wasn't very wealthy, had to wear a toe sack and was for sure wiser at least to never get in any more plays!

The Ethiopian Church Bible contains the Book of Enoch, as well as some others. It is well known that Judaism was practiced in Ethiopia long before Christianity. Only speculation, but some scholars believe that there was much more involved with King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba other than a casual meeting; and that she may have had a child by him.

Either way, the history of Judaism and the Church in Ethiopia is a wonderfully interesting one and worth research!

Is it a done deal that Ethiopians was from the tribe of Dan?

Posco, sorry don't understand your post?

Wherever you land, don't fall in to the crevice of thinking Bible trivia or biblical "how to" application expertise will deliver you from evil unto salvation

Obey (love) God.
Read your Bible.
Not the other way around.

No use disagreeing about the infinity of God with our finite minds and losing site of the One through whom all things are made.
Your Bible doesn't elect, regenerate, illuminate, justify, sanctify, or glorify anyone.
God does.
Humble hearts, not puffy minds, are valued by God according to His Word.

Blessings,
Mark

I don't know Foxpaw. I know they claim Dan as their line of descent, but I certainly don't think anything is a done deal in that regard.

I could easily see where the New World inhabitants could claim descent from the Tribe of Dan as well. Very interesting stuff!

Couple of things. I think you mentioned chapter and verse. Of course that's for our ease on finding a particular piece of scripture. And you notice Paul mentioned the letter came from his own hand. That lent authority to his writing in the early church.

Interesting verse on masking I read today in Leviticus 13

45 “Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt,[c] cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp.

Original word on masking and social distancing LOL

^^Great post Mark!

We are talking about two different things.

Now Mark, how can I know how to obey, unless I've read?


I wasn't showing of my Bible trivia. It took me a half hour to write that post

No worries amspoker, my post wasn't to you or anyone in particular. Your post was a good one
And the 140 character post from me shoulda been crisper.... in that our affections of our hearts should be aimed at God, revealed through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit rather than a book.
The Ten Commandments were never a means to Heaven, as no human can do them. The Levitical priests (and sons of Israel) were supposed to realize this and humble their hearts to YHWH. They did not. They (like some today) use the Scripture as a tool it was never meant to be.... a self-righteous person's claim to supremacy over other people. The Pharisees were Scripture memorizers to the core with 603 additional laws built on top of what God revealed to Moses. Jesus rebuked them all for their ways yet Pharisees are among us still.

But that's ok. The Spirit directs all according to God's Will >>>>> so all is well.
Not perfect.
Just well.
Good post!

Blessings,
Mark

The Holy Spirit conviction. Yes, it’s that simple.

The bible is a collection of inspired books. There were more than 100 at one time, but many were destroyed by book burning, particularly during the reign of Bloody Mary. Up until the late 1800's there were 80 books contained in the bible. The apocryphal books got dropped because more people wanted a bible they could carry with them rather than a family bible that sat at home all the time, and it was just too big. The 14 apocryphal books had the least credibility according to the printers so they were left out.

A lot of people gave their lives to translate the bible into english. It's a long story, but many people died because the roman catholic church wanted the bible to remain in Latin because the average person couldn't read latin, so they could tell people what they wanted them to believe. When the bible was translated into english and became known to the common man, things really began to change and the reformation began.

I have researched this a lot and taught classes on it and the history of the bible is really complicated but it's amazing how God preserved his word for us. It's an incredible love story for all people for all time.

People don't like change, it's our nature, and changing translations get people up in a tizzy. Like the pilgrims for example, they didn't bring the King James translation to the new world with them because it was less than a decade old and they didn't trust it. Some things never change.

I've never heard of Revelation being written by anyone other than John. Who else do these "scholars" say wrote it?

John is the principle writer for the book there may have been others contributing to the book as there are some big literary swings in the book. John was imprisoned by the Romans when he wrote the book and he had no love for Rome or their empire.

Bryce

It was written by A John not THE John. Look up John of Patmos

Would have been nice if they'd used surnames to avoid that confusion.

Jim

I already did. And most people seem to think it was John the apostle. Those that don't cite the difference in writing style between the book of John from the Gospel and Revelation. I would be more surprised if his writing style hadn't evolved in the 30+ years in between when John and Revelation were wrote. That, and I think in Revelation you have more of God himself talking, than John. John was just the secretary lol.

The book of John was written in Aramaic but revelations was written in Greek. It wssnt writting style. There is more including the time it was written. It was a couple centuries after Constantine before it was included. Most modern scholars suspect two different people.

Maybe writing style wasn't an issue. Maybe it was just a typo.

As it is written...how many times is that phrase mentioned in the Bible? A bunch.

It was THE John and was written most believe about 90 or so AD or about 50-60 years after Jesus's ministry. John was an elderly man by that time.

Bryce

It has hundreds of OT references in it. It's really irrelevant wether it not "who" or "what" accepted it. When you compare it with the rest of the Bible, it is just another piece of the picture.

I have read the Book of Revelation several times. I have also read the scholars opinion on who may have written that Book. Many of the scholars think that the so called different writing styles suggest that it was written by different authors. I disagree, and also believe these "so called scholars" did not have a grasp on what the OT was really saying. In order to understand Revelation, one must have a firm grasp on the OT and its teachings. Most IMO struggle with Revelation because they don't understand the OT.

I think that John may have been the half brother of Jesus Christ. Much of his gospel is written in the first person; as though he witnessed it; and I believe that he did.

If one has a firm foundation on the OT, then the Book of Revelation flows so easily that it makes perfect sense. My opinion. Chancey

When do the non-trappers come on the trapping site and tell trappers how/what/why?
Makes about as much sense as unbelievers telling believers about Christian faith because Scripture is sheer foolishness to the unbeliever.

As far as challenges to what was handed once for all to the saints (Jude 1:3) and what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all (the earliest centuries dogma to guard against that era's heretics), the burden of proof is on the person bringing the argument against what is considered orthodox (right thinking).

We live in a time where anyone can say whatever they deem true, but it does not make it so.
Scholars concur that the Bible was canonized in the first centuries but......
the most important translation from any Bible isn't from the original languages into English, but from the printed pages into someone's life.

Blessings,
Mark

Spot on brother Chancey,
One of the best of the best as far as OT history and timelines is the 500+ page book by Eugene Merrill.

^^ Amen. The Word of our God will stand forever.

Thank you Mark,
I was unaware of that book; and will certainly get it and read it. As believers, we will never be without awe of the Creator's plan. I cherish new insights. Chancey

From one of the world's leading historical theologians, John Hannah;

The earliest collection of books that we have is called the Muratorian Canon, named for the 18th century Italian archeologist who found the document in Milan. It is clear that by the time of its original composition, the late 2nd- century, the writings of the apostles were elevated to the level of the Old Testament. However, this list did not include 1 and 2 Peter, 1 John, Hebrews and James (the later two books perhaps because of the influence of Marcionism).



Perhaps because oral tradition was the normal means of communication during these times, and people passed information word-of-mouth, putting together a formal "book" was not the critical project we think of today with immediate communication at our fingertips. The printing press would be invented 1,000 years after the canonical books were decided.

You may criticize non-believers for commenting their beliefs on a religious thread, but as a believer I can promise you I got more from Danny's post than from yours or foxpaws or several others. I know Jesus often spoke in parables but is there some unwritten law that his followers must as well? Can none of you just say what you mean?

You attacked Danny for stating his opinion on who the author of Revelation was, but yet you never offered yours? Or I guess maybe you did, if we can wade through enough of the rhetoric to decipher that since you're critical of danny's post, you must disagree with him?

Aren't you in seminary now? Would it not be more befitting for you to offer up, in plain english, your opinion of who wrote Revelation as opposed to hoping the brighter among us might infer it based on your bashing of an atheist?

Are we not supposed to SHOW our religion as opposed to using our words to forever run people off of it?

Angela, I believe with all my heart that John wrote the Book of Revelation. If I offended you or Danny, I am sorry; it was certainly not my intention; and I appreciate you both very much contributing to this thread as well as other topics on this site. Chancey

Chancey.... I don't know your real name so excuse me for that... but I was NOT talking to you AT ALL. I believe John the apostle wrote the book of Revelations too. I think Danny's wrong. BUT I'm not going to attack him the way Mark did just because I don't agree with him.... and I'm not even in training to become a preacher!

Mark was rather dismissive of Danny, but it's a stretch to say that his post was "bashing" Danny.

I do agree that Danny's post merits a serious, non-dismissive response. Mark's answers are frequently ambiguous to me. But I've assumed that's because he's talking about a religion with lots of gray areas and loopholes.


Jim

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that preachers/pastors/ministers/priests/brothers or whatever Mark's denomination might refer to themselves as main purpose was to reach out and bring more people to Jesus. NOT to lecture other believers because they believe a bit different than he does. And certainly not to... dismiss.... someone that is a proclaimed atheist but yet seems to have a much better grasp of Scripture than Mark himself does.

Yes, Danny, like you James... is a loudly proclaimed atheist, but it's MY hope that someone can make y'all change your mind before it's too late. And I'm 1000% sure Mark WON'T be that person.... and considering his future position, that's sad.

I'm not an atheist, let alone loudly proclaimed. I'm an agnostic. The evidence isn't in, so far as I'm concerned.

I can see making a case either way, that there is or is not a creator. I guess I'd claim to be a deist, if pushed to choose. There is a creator, but He or She doesn't concern themself much with humans or our affairs.

Other interpretations leave the Creator a lot to account for to the sentient beings who were created.

Jim

I agree you seem more open to religious possibilities than danny does, so I'm sorry if lumping you into the atheist category offends you, but to me an "atheist" is anyone who doesn't believe Christ died for your sins.... perhaps I'm wrong in assuming that's your stance? Or more likely I'm wrong... and the term I should be using is Christian.... which neither you nor danny are. And here we are back to arguing semantics again.

I agree I'm not a Christian, but it's not just semantics.

I'm a cultural Christian. I was raised to believe, but have grown up to become a skeptic.

Similarly, my wife is a cultural Buddhist, like most Japanese. She doesn't literally believe in Buddhist scripture, but did find comfort in the rituals when her mother died.

Jim

As the agnostic said to the atheist "I admire your faith".

Bryce

So then what IS the term, James, for someone who was raised a Christian, turned away from it, and then never grew enough to come back to it? Is that term simply Agnostic?

I have no idea what a "cultural Christian" is although I guess I once was one? I was raised to believe.... then "grew up" to become a skeptic. Then realized I was a moron and that no educated person could doubt the Truth of Christ.

Why is that?

Why is what?

Jim

Why did she find comfort in the rituals while denying it's foundation.

I know you directed this to James , but I kinda relate that to somebody eating a baloney sandwich. Baloney comes from the store don't it.

I was under the impression that meant everybody, like atheist or non-calvinists. Or is that one of those elect only kinda deals.

What language did Moses write in? Did he use Egyptian hieroglyphics or did Hebrew have writing in Moses’s time? Are the books attributed to Moses a collection of oral history written at a later time?

The Bible is the only truth with so many opinions,

in my opinion. lol

Maybe you just haven't found the evidence. Maybe you're just not really looking. Or maybe you're just not looking in the right places because you don't want to.

Good morning yotetrapper30,
Couple of clarifications if I may on your comments which I take to heart but also wonder about.
I don't attack danny. He and I know each other and we know that we're ok going back and forth. I dismiss his Christian views because Scripture tells us to be dismissive. Not me saying it. God's Word. Paul said it to the Corinthians and to Timothy about Ephesians and much more. It's plain. Non-believers attack and discourage and there's a spiritual reason behind it. As you study the Word, it's part of God' story.

Also, you'd have to show me where I plain out attacked. Is typing a long answer an attack? Some think it is. Someone gives a short answer. Then someone gives a longer answer. The longer is deemed offensive. This is not how it's always been and in fact historically the short answer was deemed incomplete and the long responsive but in our modern era formal education is not appreciated because long answers are now lumped by societal pressures into "authority" and we see it everywhere in America now;

People despise authority.
They despise police.
They despise teachers.
They despise government.
They despise God.

Our churches are bleeding and America's hate for authority is a large reason.
We are a land of my way or the highway as much as my Jesus and my favorite ice cream and my opinion.
F bombs are in. Narcissism is in.
Morality is out. Good is out. Evil is ok. Sin can't be talked about because that's deemed judging but sinful lusts are a click away and one of the biggest businesses in 2021 so they are celebrated on bumperstickers.
The Triune God is out.
And called myth. By the person you say has good God comments on here. I don't agree because Scripture tells me not to. At all.
Time Magazine declared God dead in 1968. And celebrated it. Some on this forum celebrate it too.
Not me. I never liked Time magazine.

So this old coyote trapper is in fact studying God's Word deeply at age 63 when most of America is trying to pay a light bill or a medical bill or put kids through schools, so extend me grace on this forum if I answer deeply. I have learned deeply. From smart humble people. Yes, there can be such a thing yet in America.
Pauls' letters to Timothy were very long. Why? To explain in all honesty.
That's what some on here, me included, are doing.
Not to win. I'm too old and already minister to people who at the end of their lives have many questions unanswered and wish someone, anyone, would quite the crap we see around us and simply explain spiritual stuff honestly and deeply with them as they leave this life. . It's not grey. It's as black and white when people are near death as this life gets.

So I try to assist anyone trying to learn as I am.

Onto these topics come the stone throwers.
They aren't trying to learn. They aim to burn.
They offer google comments cut and paste from sources no one uses at a deep level.

If you want to learn Christianity from an atheist or a Gnostic, you don't have to go far. They're everywhere. Ask them. It'd be like asking a non-trapper about trapping and expecting a truthful answer.
It's getting harder to be faithful in a non-Christian America for the reasons we see on this forum.
Those of us, and there are many on this site, who minister and teach and preach the Word with truth in our heart just have to accept that America is not the land of our fathers, but rather a new land of highly divided people.
I didn't aim to add to that but rather to bring what I pay quite a bit for in tuition to a forum I enjoy... free of charge.
My answers will always head this way.
Longer as explanitory not as bickering.

Hope this clarifies. Maybe not?

Oh and;
I enjoy James' questions

Blessings,
Mark

I don’t think bible origins will ever be agreed on. Its to ancient and then religion comes into play. Religion doesnt need any truth at all only peoples faith. IMO much of the Old Testament was written many centuries after the stories originated. I think much of the stuff talked about was before written language. So it stands to reason, in my mind at least, that people wrote down oral traditions. Its why stories that were written before Old Testament scrolls are so similar yet different. Cuneiform I think is the word. Stuff written on clay tablets.

He takes the shot at the open net and hits the goalpost. Nice try.

danny, beer's on me bro! Pretty good answer right here.
Hey, I'll see you in Kansas and we'll once again scrap, roll around in the dirt, and then hug and kiss again like always.

Blessings,
Mark

lol

“Paul, I really need you to stop killing Christians if people are going to take the message seriously.”

You count as a naysayer and of course you're welcome to chime in the same as anyone else. I would think you might content yourself to lose just one argument at a time rather than going down on multiple fronts but that's your call.

Doesn't matter how far you go back in bible history you will never dig your self out of double predestination.

If you don’t have faith the coyote set you made, you probably won’t catch any coyote. Same is true about faith in Jesus Christ. If you don’t have faith that he died on a cross and rose from the tomb, then you won’t get much reading the Bible. The Holy Spirit help you understand the Bible.

The cross wasn't in a hidden corner, but out on a hill for the whole world to see.

I have confidence in my coyote set because experience tells me if a coyote finds it that coyote will more likely than not get caught. Experience also tells me that if a creator exists it doesn’t much care what happens to the created

Danny you don't need faith to catch coyotes. Just set your traps upside down and if their destiny is up, the rest is history.

Mark I agree with everything you wrote in your above post. The length of your post has nothing to do with anything. Your comment in the post from yesterday, which you reiterated above about a non-trapper teaching about trapping is what I was referring to.... it's rude. I still believe you catch more flies with honey than vinegar though. James and Danny follow these religious posts for some reason. Maybe they'll learn something from them. I know if I was truly convinced there was no God, the last thing I would be doing is spending my time reading religious posts.

Ang, the o.p. asked for everyone’s opinion

Angela,
What about my post is an example of being rude?

Blessings,
Mark

Danny , you may need to check the meaning of everyone in Greek.

Yes Danny, and you should be free to share yours.

Mark, I don't know how to explain it anymore clearly. I found your comment that people like danny shouldn't voice their opinions on a religious thread because they're not religious, to be rude.

This is probably not going to land well but,
that's not an explanation but rather a statement of opinion. Which is fine. I just wondered if you could drill down and help me understand what specifically was rude about my comments.

I an accept your opinion if you can accept mine and vice versa.
That's how arguments in the historical sense worked. Back and forth dialog. Logic in the philosophical sense.
Culture today terms "argument" as winners and losers.

Thanks for the answer Angela!
Blessings,
Mark

I would never say they shouldn't voice an opinion. I'm a free speech dude. Totally. Nowhere did I say "do not post."
I guess the non-trapper analogy didn't paint the right picture.
Sorry about that.

Let me refer then to Scripture as to exactness on how we are to handle perversion of the Gospel, written with conviction by the Apostle Paul to the churches in all of Galatia... who were listening to all sorts of opinions twenty years after Jesus Christ ascended;

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Galatians 1:6–10.

We all answer to One who is God and I, like all, will give account to God of the exactness of my purpose and will be asked if my purpose was of from a pure heart or did I have a carnal motive? Pride? Envy? Jealousy? Greed? Lust? Etc?
Integrity is the basis of it all. And the Apostle Paul's last words in 1:6-10 are really important to reflect upon.


Blessings,
Mark

To the OP question, the first complete list of NT Books was referred to in Athanasius's Easter Letter of 367AD.


Blessings,
Mark