Trying to help Jim figure it all out

Our scribe friend is a deep thinker. In that there can be no doubt.

This Scripture passage is helpful James, when you consider the "grand" schema of God's glorious creation and who it makes sense to. Who can understand it.

To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ.
Written or spoken for dictation by the Apostle Paul to the Ephesians (3:8)

Paul invented a new Greek word for this writing. It had never been used before in Greek. Ponder that carefully James. The guy who literally saw the resurrected Jesus, himself a trained Pharisee and one of the most accomplished according to Paul's testimony, a Jew but also a Roman citizen, who watched Stephen gets stoned and was glad, and who himself killed many Christians.....

becomes the greatest announcer of the kingdom of God to the Gentiles.
That you ponder today.
Thought I'd give you context of why we even know about God from the Apostle Paul.

Incredibly, Paul feels compelled to make up a new word to describe what he must author precisely (being an author figured you'd get this part).
The word elachistotero. The elachistotero is the one proclaiming the Gospel and who will go on to proclaim to Ceasar and his mightiest nation ever known to men at that time = Rome.
How about that!
The leaster will proclaim to the greatest on earth = Ceasar. And Paul is directed by the Spirit to do exactly that. Go to Rome!
Crazy twist of a plot, right?

In English we have less, lesser, and least. Nothing beneath that.
Paul says he's lower than least. He's "leaster."

So James, we approach the throne not arrogant and "let's see what God has to say about this!" with puffed out chests. We approach the throne of the God of the Bible in humble fashion because we too are the leasters. Just like Paul.
I'm a dirty, rotten, filthy sinner and THANK GOD, he tells me why that is....
in book fashion, proclaims each day who he is when the sun comes up and the stars come out,
and Who sent His Son to make all things new.

Pretty amazing that the humble will inherit the earth in the End Times. God always uses the leasters to further His Kingdom. Pagan gods call on earthly kings to do that. Huge paradigm difference here because one is truth and one is falsehoods.

God is typically backwards to human logic, but Iz trying to help ya as you ponder deep.
I'd toss all you seemed to have learned from wherever your heretical teachings came from and dive in to the orthodox (right thinking).
Water's good.
Literally.

Blessings,
Mark

Earth to Jim. Over.

Over and out!

Jim

He's reading up on it...
Might be hard for him to come up with a reply that's just another ?

I don't know about Jim but you helped me learn more. For that I thank you, you leaster!

I don't believe James' pride (I say "arrogance") will allow him to even CONSIDER that God's intellect/compassion is greater than his own.

I don't believe that will change until/unless he is faced with a situation that literally (like Saul!) brings him to his knees.

not that I'm hoping for something like that to befall him...just that I think that's what it will take.

I hope I'm wrong and James sees the light (another Saul reference!) without a life-crushing moment.

This is my take on it as well.

That's what it takes with most people.

You're welcome.

Anyone else find it odd that a guy that is a self proclaimed atheist wants everyone else to pray for his granddaughter? Kinda like he’s above doing that.

I was thankful that he asked our help

We sure wish no bad thing for Jim.
One of my favorite profs, historical theologian Dr. John Hannah, himself a street urchin who came to faith at the age or 10 on the mean streets of Philadelphia, told me early on in my studies, during our conversation, that it seems the God of the Bible does amazing things amidst human tragedy.... and everyone will have one.
Dr. Hannah, who couldn't be more humble and is a world scholar in historical theology, came from a broken home (father was a doctor who told his son - while dad was upon his death bed - that John and his Christ could go to _____).
Kinda puts a kink in the argument of those who say folks are believers because they grow up in a home with Christians.
Nope.

Blessings,
Mark

Sure glad our Lord didn't shy away from sinners. His trip woulda been a quick one.

Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person. (Colossians 4:5-6)

I wouldn't say "most"..."many" is probably more accurate.

Jonathan Edwards wrote a book on revival and he commented on the "distinguishing marks of a work of God" on the believer. Bunyan wrote of it as well. Can't be dogmatic about it but I think they were right.

The aliens got him. Oh well.
Man-o-man and Dyno-mite, the alien quiz night just got expanded.

In this corner, weighing in at 61 pounds is Marlo. He can dazzle anybody, anywhere, anytime.
In this corner, weighing ???? is Jim. He can. He can. Um, he can.

Ah darn. Let's get started! Gentlemen START YOUR ENGINES!

Jim. Um Jim. JIM!!!!!

James, learn from "Yogi". "When you come to a fork in the road, Take it"!

James doesn't want to learn (he already KNOWS everything!)...

he's only interested in threads where he thinks he can demonstrate his "superior" intellect...

and this isn't one of them!

Mark, if it was aliens I hope when they beam him up the leader comes out and says “Isn’t this the finest, biggest, and most beautiful space ship you have ever seen! We call her MSGA! We are Making Space Great Again

Don't have time to address all your post, Mark, but I'll be frank about one point.

You say, "God is typically backwards to human logic..." We agnostics notice that kind of statement because it seeks to inoculate religion from any kind of rational challenge. It's a smoke-and-mirrors trick, is what it is. How can anyone inquire into the mind of God, with the hope of understanding it, when His thinking is backwards to our own? Of course we can't know what He expects of us, if we can't understand Him. It brings to mind the Middle Ages, when priests didn't want the people to be able to read the Bible themselves because they might ask troublesome questions.

I thought we are created in His image. Was God only concerned about appearances? Wouldn't He want His creation to understand Him, as much as we can? Of course we can't match His mind, but ours ought to be at least a tiny mirror of It, don't you think?

You'll probably reply that God's ways are mysterious and beyond our understanding. Poppycock! It's the same old trick. It creates atheists and agnostics.

Jim (the leasterest)

Even an agnostic with some common sense should see that the teachings of Jesus Christ are loaded with logic and form a good blueprint for what kind of person we should strive to be.

He was asking for prayer for himself also, you didn't see that?

Morning Jim.
Well, "we're giving 'er all we got Cap'in," as Sulu on StarTrek used to say.
I consistently see that you are stuck on much of what has been referred to as the Dark Ages goings on, teachings, and such.
You seek knowledge amongst the rubble of humans sir Jim. I mean I love King Arthur and all but even I, the serf in the room, can tell that you typically recall and cast those good old days teachings from your non-orthodox teachers upon our discussions, and know in your noggin it wasn't a worthy time. You think Martin Luther rose up against the church's power and might of that day because he was aiming to start a good coffee latte shop at a new age church? Heck no. Corruption and lack of biblical teaching was rampant.
Today, culture more and more ignores it. Then, it corrupted the theology of the God of the Bible.
Men who sought power and not the kingdom of God.
That's not novel. We guard our own hearts today because the flesh battles the Spirit. We are prone to wander.

Anywho, I've shared many times, I'm of the theology that we don't sign folks up. Only the Spirit convicts. But I share even though some call tall this "pearls".
What you may not realize is that there are tens of thousands of interconnecting threads throughout the 66 books of the Bible. From people who wrote sections of it who lived thousands of years apart.
And historical theologians and linguists continue to discover more all the time as the unwrap the splendor of God's Word.
Prophecies written centuries prior that come true. Not some of it but all of it. And some of it has not yet been lived out.
We live in the inter-advent (Advent = coming) age prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus, and Scripture is clear that it will happen but theologians attempt to figure how all that goes down in the "End Times."

All is well. Humans continue to discover and all continue to live life and then they die.
Some continue to search for meaning fo their life (some say they don't but there is no such person) and most say I'm god and this is what I see.
Hold your breath for 5 minutes.
Grab some air with your bare hands.
Explain the miracle of human love, the difference of love between of a man and a woman and a father or mother for their child... with exactness.
Jump up and be glad that gravity brings you back down but do not ask how that happens.
And countless other examples.

Only a blind person can't see the order of things all around us and as a trapper I can tell the beaver's oily skin used for purpose from a bobcat's fangs used from purpose and know that design is from a creator and not some Darwinistic half-filled in thesis.
They're not gonna make a monkey outta me but you are welcome to accept that heritage.
I think you already have.
And they are a dead species.
Now and forever more.
By design.

Into this world naked I came, and naked I will go out of this world. Old Job was correct.
As is all Scripture.

Blessings!
Mark

Asks for prayers when it suits him but otherwise argues loudly against the existence of God. True character exposed.

Habakkuk's character was exposed as trouble maker always asking too many questions, even bothering God, lol. He addressed his problem asking questions. Jonah on the other hand sidestepped his and even tried outrunning them.

I haven't read this thread in its entirety, but I felt I should address a couple things here. First of all, I agree: the logic you're seeing behind that phrase is the kind of religiousity that seeks to suppress rational thought about real life and the struggles we experience in it, and it irks those of us who do think (or try to) deeply about life, the world, and everything in it. However, I don't think it represents any logic that is promoted in the Bible itself. Yes, I think there are many ways in which the Church went quite astray in the Middle Ages (and many ways we do it today too). One of those things was certainly the suppression of scripture reading by lay people. Did you know that the word "read" in Hebrew is the same word for "call out"? The Bible was supposed to be read aloud in public, and that practice was evidently widespread enough in ancient Jewish culture that the language reflects it.

The image of God stuff is about the role of humanity on the earth. It's a phrase that was used in the ancient world to describe idol statues and kings - physical representations of a deity on earth. Its use in the Bible is also used in conjunction with "ruling" language. It means that God has given all humans (not just kings) delegated authority to run the show on the earth. It isn't about the appearance of humans or about some innate quality that they possess. It's about purpose. Humans are intended to co-rule with God. The major plot conflict in the story of the Bible is when humans rebel and create their own kingdoms under their own authority apart from God. Humans decide to define what is good on their own terms rather than trusting God's definition of what is good. (This is all laid out [initially] in Genesis 1-11, by the way.) I think this is what Mark was talking about (though, like I said, I haven't read all of this, so sorry if I'm misrepresenting you Mark). It isn't that humans are incapable of understanding God's will or desires for us. The problem is that we want to do the things that we want to do instead.

Read any history book, or pick up a newspaper, and you'll find stories about human power structures (political, economic, social, or religious) that are seeking to create some version of "the good life", or working for "the greater good", or otherwise working toward some utopian vision of earthly bliss. In doing so, they justify the oppression, enslavement, plunder, rape, and murder of people and people groups who stand in the way. In our attempts to create a Heaven for ourselves, we create (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman). The story of the Bible is about a god who is constantly trying to rescue people from that (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and invite them to participate in (be agents, or co-rulers in) the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the most basic story of the Bible. No one should believe me on this. I have no authority here, I too am leaster. Just read the book.

The cool thing about the god of this story is that he is constantly trying to make his ways known, so that people can live out their purpose and participate in heaven on earth. In the Bible, there is no mystery about God's will and desire for people. There's just a problem, because people seem to be incapable of carrying it out on their own. That's where Jesus enters the scene to do for us what we are incapable of doing for ourselves. Perhaps that's a discussion for another time.

In reading Jim's reply he recognizes God is real and that is the foundation. Now he can build the rest of the house.

Very well laid out jht.
Dare I say I'm a dispensationalist because of the cooling rod dispensations God has placed multiple times into the red hot core of human sin on earth.
God alone has stopped us all from annihilating one another. Multiple times.

To those like James who only see God as the permitter or enabler or instigator of sin and evil, I would argue that time and time and time and time again, God has stepped in to save us from us.
And continues to do so still.

Thank God!
Cause humans would annihilate each other and give human rationale as to why "he/she started it," "he/she had it coming," "he/she/them/they are not worth my time," and a 1,000 more tag lines as they pulled the trigger, pushed the button, or wiped their blade.

Mingle and love among 'em but I wouldn't trust my eternal rest to humans who are quite a creative, inventing, energetic lot.
All of us

Good post jht.
Blessings,
Mark

I am trying to stat out of this I really am, then you posted this

Triggered?

Why is it hard to stay out if you and Mr. Epstein don't care what believers believe?

Because I dont think you believe that anymore than you believe you have to catch a dominate coyote first to clean out a calving yard

So sayeth you but incorrect on both counts DC.
I wonder why you generally bring grenades to a religious discussion?
And pull pins.

To decree to others that they don't believe what they post?
Interesting.
Perhaps it's you who doesn't believe what you post and transference has dimmed your glass?

Blessings,
Mark

Apparently it was hard to tell who was the real people of God even in those days. Somebody ought to make a show called "To Tell The Truth", I bet it would be a hit.


1 Kings 13:20

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back:

21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,

22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

If you've had this or seen how it wipes people out who get it, it scared the crap out of you. I give Jim credit for having an open mind and loving his granddaughter enough to ask for our help in asking our maker for help. Who cares what he believes, he's asking for help, lets give it to him and pray his granddaughter gets through this stuff.

On that, I agree Dash. 100%.

Blessings,
Mark

I thought James said he was an Agnostic. I may be wrong.

Hes not "wiped out" enough to mock those of Faith,,the day after asking for prayers.Did I pray for his grand daughter,,yes,,,will I cry a river for him NEVER.Hes laughing at everyone right now that we pray for his family,,while he mocks us in other threads.He is a sorry excuse of a human.

I enjoy reading these discussions although I don't contribute. I don't think agreement or a "seeing of the light" will every happen with the most vocal participants.

An interesting angle though is the guys like me--the readers. I wonder what Mark, James, Danny, et al. hope to achieve with their comments. Win the debate, truly change the mind of the other, or something else?

I guess I could ask the same question on a political discussion but the religion discussions just seem different.

No birds are flying and I was just wondering...

I can answer from my porch only BC. Easily. I just like to chat back and forth and gather ideas. I gotta tell ya, THAT is getting harder to do in our lifetimes because some in 2021 take every discussion as if it were the end all, be all, while some like me just like to dialog. I don't drink and I don't smoke cigars but I do enjoy a sit back and discuss kinda parlay.

Can you imagine most folks today trying to draft the American Constitution?
I can't.
Simple flame throwers by the truck load who want no part of anyone else's opinion. There are always correct. Ask 'em.
Que the tear the statues down crowd! People blame BLM and Antifa but BLM and Antifa are just the flip side of the same coin.
No one like that on TMan? Never wrong. Tear it down. Shut it up.

As I watch kids and grandkids grow, I lament more and more that we NOW live in a society much different IMO than the critical thinkers of our heritage.
Sure, people like to win. But at what cost? Civility?
It doesn't take much to stand pride against civility in 2021 and yell that vulnerability is weakness and pride is courageous.
Could that be backwards? I argue it is.

And are ALL religious and political discussion contributors looking to win? Achieve? Must do?
Perhaps some. Perhaps many. But not all.
Dialog has become the new argument thanks to idiots that have taught that. Idiots meaning... they don't know any better because they don't know it all.
I don't get the jest that you are always trying to win when you post for example.
Usually good comments.

2021: When you dialog on an online forum, you have an agenda.
That may be true for some. Not all.
I'd toss that stinkin' thinkin'
It's progressivism to it's core.

Blessings,
Mark

Great explanation. I am generally in agreement.

I figure they just wnt to argue?

If it goes more than 140 characters, it's gotta be an argument?
I've been trapping coyotes for almost 50 years with countless coyote conversations of considerable length
and they never get as crotchety as fast as political and religious chats.
Wonder why?

Plus, more than the posters read these threads.
The vast majority lurk in a good way.
PMs are telling.

Oh, knowing he'll argue which will keep the dialog going for the lurkers...smart!

On a "trapping" forum."
Go figure.

.....a little dirt hole here....
.... a little lure there.....
..... a bit of bait here.....
.....splash of P.........

Rattle, rattle, ching, chang.

Planting seeds, let the Holy Spirit change their hearts.

When a conversation goes past "yes" or ''no'', one is getting ready to get into compromise. Particularly when there is more than one doctrine and even with the same doctrine when there is more than 1 person and hopefully not too many different personalities. Once one gets into the valley of craftsmen and compromises too much then one most likely can't build a wall stout enough for a little fox to run down without it crumbling.

A lot of recruitment practices start with the simplest questions to the unwary, thin skinned subjects, and I think we can all remember the flower child days. Still the same practices just a bigger smarter Babylon.

Even with sessions of all basically the same believers, when all is said and done, more is said than done !
A young lady said on here a month ago something of the effect, “But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do cause strifes” .

A lot of people like the furniture in their house just the way it is. Not too long ago my wife moved the bed to the other side of the room. I told her I wasn't against change, but for an old man she better leave a light on or have a mop handy. She left the light on, lol.

You must for sure be the light on at the Bible studies you lead Foxpaw.
You are well versed.

Blessings,
Mark

Well I'm usually accused of chasing too many rabbits. I think we would agree that while the moon gives light it doesn't make any of it.

I used to read about those verses about the small lamp that was a lamp unto my feet. I coon hunted when I had and old kerosene lantern and never did like it. But had a buddy that never carried a walking light and was in a clean bean field and walked off in a filled in well that sunk from all the rain. After that he carried one of the new fashioned carbide lights to walk by.

Don't chase too many hares.

Often thought of it this way. We cast seeds. I have seen in my own experiences that I have spoke boldly of the Gospel to friends never really thinking it did any good and then seen others minister to them and they get saved. It is not our responsibility as Christians to convict . That is God's Spirit that does that. We simply are to share the message. I suppose many have put some thought into a relationship with Christ by simply reading what is said. Of course diminishing others is not the way to go (am guilty of this myself) but was rather pleased to pray for James and Pearl because if he is asking then he has an understanding of the principles of the Kingdom. Ask and you will receive. Even if it is a selfish desire he has some realization that God is in control. I had no problem praying for him. We are called to. LLL

Solid post LLL.
People's lips profess the truth of what's in their hearts and we pray God does all the writing upon it.

Blessings,
Mark