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Revitalization of the American Churches

Posted By: Anonymous

Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:12 PM

Tman family,
It's with sincerity humility that I share the following with my trapper brothers and sisters, who more than many, marvel at the great outdoors.
Bossman, if it's not appropriate, then nix it please with my apologies. This post may answer some questions trappers have been asking on various posts.

Many of you are believers, so please know, while a great cultural battle is being fought on our American soil, there is also a great battle being waged by trained theologians and common everyday saints alike over how teachers are teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is being called a Revitalization of our American Churches, every bit as important as the Reformation started in 1517, when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Thesis to the door of the Church at Wittenberg.

Be encouraged that in 2021, there is great optimism within our faith, even though the battle is most serious, because false teachers and false people are being called out of their pulpits.
But the theology battle is not for the timid or weak kneed as false teachers are well funded and well placed.

Perhaps these pictures (trailer clips) will speak a 1,000 words and give the cliff notes of the battle between those who teach Truth and those who are the false prophets Jesus Himself warned would come.
We, as students, view this here at DTS during course work so that we realize the institutional framework of where we are, and the Gospel expectations of what is expected as students go out to preach, teach, and counsel as part of the revitalization efforts.




There is harsh work ahead for those who go willingly, by the Grace of God, with no chance of earthly gain, but promise of much hardship and suffering.
The Revitalization has begun.
Be encouraged trapper friends!
Some of you may know people waging war against false prophets. Encourage, edify, and support them however you can.
As Paul reminded Timothy amidst false teachers, "You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" 2 Tim 2:1, God's grace and not human effort is required in these situations.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:39 PM

False teachers and false prophets being all those who have a different interpretation of the Bible than you do?

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by James
False teachers and false prophets being all those who have a different interpretation of the Bible than you do?

Jim


The Word of God much like the US Constitution is not open for interpretation it means exactly what God meant to say.
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by warrior
Originally Posted by James
False teachers and false prophets being all those who have a different interpretation of the Bible than you do?

Jim


The Word of God much like the US Constitution is not open for interpretation it means exactly what God meant to say.

Then why are there so many different denominations/sects?


Or are all of them wrong except for 1 and we're waiting for God to sort that out in the last days?
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:53 PM

Why? You really have to ask that? Look around you, why do we have political parties, 31 flavors of ice cream, 24 genders?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:53 PM

Denominations for the most part differentiate not about doctrine but over rituals and liturgy. Many on the sacraments of baptism and Lord's Supper.
Christian Churches affirm certain core faith teachings of the orthodox (right thinking) church... or they wouldn't be considered Christian.
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 07:54 PM

If your faith is in a denomination and not the Blood of Christ there's a warm spot reserved for you in the pits of hades.
Posted By: bearcat2

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 08:02 PM

Thank you, Mark. We need those people who stand up for the truth against false teachings and false prophets. Both those everyday people who just state the truth to their family and a few friends and those who stand on a stage or at a pulpit and speak to the masses.

Jim,
Not those who interpret it differently, but those who interpret it falsely or flatly state things are in there that aren't in there at all. I won't put words in Mark's mouth, because a)he is quite capable of speaking for himself, and b)I don't know all his beliefs/interpretations. So speaking strictly for myself I will point out an example. The plethora of churches who have decided to teach that homosexuality and transgender is okay. There are numerous passages in the Bible that state in plain words that it is a sin, yet these churches have decided to bow to expediency and political correctness and falsely state that it is not.
There are many false teachings and prophets, some, such as David Koresh of the Branch Dividian (Waco massacre) which are commonly viewed as cultist extremists and wackos. Others such as the Episcopal Church and the Presbytarian Church U.S.A (other branches of Presbytarians have split due to differences over false teachings) have managed to be viewed as mainstream and bill themselves as 'modern' and 'inclusive.'
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 08:03 PM

Our interim pastor made a good point today... Gary Brandenburg, head Chaplain for the Mercy Ships worldwide.
He said it's important to remember Christian believers are just people that admit to being messed up, screwed up, barely hanging on to the side rails sinners.... but they seek God, not as some kind of personal "savior" genie in a bottle - in a here's what I need from you God today kind of way, but rather in meek fashion saying, "look at me God, why would you ever give "me" any of Your Grace? Do you any clue what I've done or been?"

The false teachers turn the Gospel of our Lord upside down, package it in old retribution theology (the Pharisees) and pass it out, and urge people to turn to others saying "look at me. God has blessed me!"
Oh, not you? You're not faithful enough! Keep on trying until you're as good as me!
False teachers pit people against people and revel in the turmoil.

As the trailer says - from the Bible - prosperity Gospel is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In fact, the Apostles missed it if it was and the 12 WERE the REAL 12. All suffered. 11 died. Blessings? In this life?
The Gospel is the Person and Work of Jesus Christ in His 1st and 2nd Coming and the whole NT is about the "hope" of things to come. As in >>>> after this life.
Every epistle is written about it explicitly so that the early believers would know false from true teachers.


Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 08:19 PM

Back in the day it would have been Gnosticism, today it would be things like ordaining women and homosexuals. Liberation theology was a big deal at one time as was/is a health & wealth 'gospel'.

My pastor mentioned a poll that stated 40% of 'Christians' thought Jesus wasn't the only way to God. You begin to see a problem.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 08:30 PM

Peter wrote the answer of where to find answers; God's Word. It is the final say. Wonderfully we get to offer opinions.

So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Peter 1:19–21.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by James
False teachers and false prophets being all those who have a different interpretation of the Bible than you do?

Jim


Jim, your answer is in Scripture in Jesus' own Words;

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
So then, you will know them by their fruits."

Matthew 7:15–20.

What do all these false prophets and preachers and pastors point to?
Wealth. Money. Success.
In a word: Greed.
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 09:45 PM

Doesnt the above verse go on to say you will recognize them by their fruitage? Has nothing to do with greed but rather evil and hatred.


Right is right, wrong is wrong, poison is poison. Even a little poison corrupts the whole container. There can only be one truth. Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals ect...... Only ine can be truth the rest have partial lies and we all know who the father of the lie is.
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Back in the day it would have been Gnosticism, today it would be things like ordaining women and homosexuals. Liberation theology was a big deal at one time as was/is a health & wealth 'gospel'.

My pastor mentioned a poll that stated 40% of 'Christians' thought Jesus wasn't the only way to God. You begin to see a problem.


You core down to the basics the heresy of today is gnosticism in it's separation of the body and spirit. As long as one's "spirit" is good you can commit all sorts of hedonism in the body.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pike River
Doesnt the above verse go on to say you will recognize them by their fruitage? Has nothing to do with greed but rather evil and hatred.
Right is right, wrong is wrong, poison is poison. Even a little poison corrupts the whole container. There can only be one truth. Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Pentecostals ect...... Only ine can be truth the rest have partial lies and we all know who the father of the lie is.


Good question, but we know what the fruits of the flesh are because the Apostle Paul lists many of them in Galatians 5:19-21. It's quite a lengthy list but that is our nature.... "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing,"

As far as the different denominations, the Christian faith has long held to "core" doctrines and most theologians agree there are a minimum of seven (7). As long as a church, regardless of their "values," "beliefs," "liturgies" doesn't DELETE from this list, they are consider orthodox (right thinking) Christian. A theology can ADD to the list (to a point) and some have >>> Roman Catholicism with their 5 additional sacraments for example. That's termed "heterodoxy" and is still Christian because they affirm the core 7. Some denominations have DELETED core doctrines and replaced with different doctrine. That is termed heresy and would not be called Christian by most.
The core seven statements of faith are;
>the Trinity
>the full deity and humanity of Christ
>the spiritual lostness of the human race
>the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ
>salvation by God through faith in Jesus Christ
>the physical return of Christ
>the authority and inerrancy of Scripture.

The Universal Church is made up of all the denominations that have held to what the Apostle's taught post-Ascension, so all the Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, and such would commonly be held as orthodox as long as they affirmed the seven at a minimum (and they all do). Denominations usually just vary on how they "do church" = worship/leadership/sacraments/liturgical ritual but they are all Christian at a core with the seven doctrines at hand (people fight about the weeds more than the core).
Now that said, individual pastors or clergy, or people even can say "I don't agree with all those 7."
That has been done throughout history (and still is being done.... thus the Revitalization efforts), but that falls outside the core and that'd be either called an "aberrant faith" or a "cult."

Hope that helps!

Personally I'm Augustinian (4th century theologian) who wrote that the Universal Church is the visible and invisible saints (believers) in heaven and on earth.
Love me some interdenominational gatherings.
I attend a non-denominational seminary and there are all sorts from all over the world that come here because DTS is renowned for studying all 66 Protestant Books. All of 'em. Equally.

Blessings!
Mark


Posted By: Fisher Man

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 11:22 PM

I have come to the conclusion that it matters not what denomination of Christianity you belong to as long as you accept Jesus. I do not approve of these television ministries that are profiting in the name of the Lord. Also I do not approve of churches bowing to modern day pressures such as gay marriages or homosexuals being ordained.These things are against the teaching of the Bible.
Posted By: Providence Farm

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/12/21 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fisher Man
I have come to the conclusion that it matters not what denomination of Christianity you belong to as long as you accept Jesus. I do not approve of these television ministries that are profiting in the name of the Lord. Also I do not approve of churches bowing to modern day pressures such as gay marriages or homosexuals being ordained.These things are against the teaching of the Bible.



2x
Posted By: lee steinmeyer

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:14 AM

I hear so often how churches are just there to take your money! One of the first things an unbeliever will throw at you in dicussion. As everything in life, it takes money to keep the lights on. But as a believer, I gladly contribute my tithes to help keep the lights on, and pay the pastor for the work he does. You cannot take that money with you, so why not do good with it! The problem is, the false prophets willingly take all they can get, and that's where people start pointing fingers at real churches, that do so much with very little! Many times the finger pointing is just another excuse for why they won't go to church!

Good thread Mark, thank you!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:27 AM

Preach on brother Lee! Amen.

Regarding false prophets and teachers;

The Church is facing assault from a hostile world, but it is also being infiltrated by false teachers. The Church is at risk of being infected by the growing indifference to Christ's return and the judgment to follow. 2 Peter might well have been written today at the dawn of a third millennium. Like a mirror, it reflects the pagan culture of our times and the prevailing condition of the Church. 2 Peter is greatly needed, yet it is little known and is lightly regarded in our time... it is an appeal for loyalty to Christ in the midst of subtle heresy.. - Kenneth G. Hanna "From Gospels to Glory: Exploring the New Testament."

Peter saw Jesus at the Transfiguration where the Lord spoke with Moses and Elijah in front of John, James, and Peter...
shortly after having told His disciples He was heading to Jerusalem where He would be killed.
He assured John, James, and Peter (the rambunctious one) that His Word would be passed to them as Truth.
2nd Peter is where the Apostle Peter tells believers that the Word having been passed to him from Jesus as TRUTH, is now being passed to them as TRUTH, as Peter himself will not live long (he will be martyred).

There are very stern words and warnings for false prophets and teachers in 2 Peter and many wolves in sheep's clothing will not teach from it for this reason.
We say.... preach 2 Peter early and often!
The Word passed from Jesus as God to Peter his chosen disciple has not wavered in all that time.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: PAlltheway

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:35 AM

About one third of the Protestant churches teach that Jesus was the first socialist and the Gospel is all about giving your stuff away and never wanting material things, open borders etc. Probably half the Catholic Church is on board with the communist pope, and probably a solid fifty to sixty percent of American Jews (the non religious ones, not to be confused with Israelis)) are fully on board with where the Left is going. The church my dad’s side belonged to since it was a log cabin in the 1740s is now Church of Christ, which I call Church of Communism. They make no apologies for their leftist anti-America policies, sermons, etc. America is in trouble, and the church (broadly meant) is a big part of coalescing Americans back into basic morality and a sense of community.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:03 AM

I have a funny story about one of the "preachers" on the video. Benny Henn came to the arena at Little Rock and was wanting a cut of the vendors(popcorn, drinks, etc) take. I guess he was wanting a bit much because the vendors balked at the idea. That night Benny called for a fast for the three day event. laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:49 AM

Benny's nephew is shown in the trailers. He is a pastor who has called his uncle's charlatan theology, "twisted."

You know what they say, "You give the people what they wanna hear, and you'll always draw a crowd."

Benny has said the world has too much negativity and so he doesn't want to talk about sin or atonement.
Well.... jettison Jesus. No need for a Savior when all you need is Benny.

These false teachers will have an impossible task at the Mercy seat as they were leaders who did not guard the Truth.
Ordination helps to pass down from generation to generation those who are grounded and tested by those who were ordained and went before them.
Jesus ordained (called) his 12 and from that it went. Jesus to John and on to Polycarp, etc.
Modernists have largely done away and have great disdain for authority so ordinations for are not as frequently done anymore. It has ravaged the pulpits in the last century.
Let any liberalist in to teach.
Like at almost all universities in our land.
The previous poster was accurate in that too many churches are devoid of Jesus and His Gospel.
The Revitalization has begun and is needed by the power of the Spirit.

The real one.
Not the one from Benny's bolt of moth infested cloth.

Blessings,
Mark


Posted By: Chancey

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:54 AM

Great post Mark, I think it speaks directly to all of us believers as far as God's way as to where we are in our walk with our Lord and Savior.

I'm a rotten individual, and when I read the Bible; especially The Revelation, I know that I am the Lukewarm Church - The Laodiceans.
I hate it that I am that, but I'm certain that is where I belong. There are a lot of things I need to fix.

It is my opinion, that when we asked Jesus into our hearts to be our Lord and Savior, He truly does live within us. It is our responsibility and ambassadorship to show up daily! I fail in many ways; and depend on His Grace and Mercy to get me through it. I realize that I'm a rotten individual, but then I think of the wonderful opportunity I have. I have 5 different Bibles that I read from, also the ability to research anything I want. I've never been persecuted, and I can speak freely about what I want. I can study the Bible all I want and make my own decisions about Truth.

In China today, Xi Xinping is destroying all Christian Churches, Mosques, Hindu Temples, etc. He if proclaiming himself as the Holy Ruler and is incorporating his pictures and glory in all grade school textbooks.

Jesus Christ lives within each and every one of us believers. The Religion of Christianity may be dying because of deception, but I think the Church is strong. Our bodies and the way we treat one another is the Church in my opinion.

The below videos are very powerful to me. It narrows the focus and puts things into perspective, and brings me to tears.






All flesh is grass, but the Word of our Lord will stand forever!!

We are all sinners, yet for the Grace of the Lord God Almighty. Thank you Jesus!!
Posted By: grisseldog

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:58 AM

James your talking abt something that you know nothing abt.
Don’t cast your pearls before swine .
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:26 AM

Enjoying an evening at the cabin reminded me we were told to keep our wicks trimmed. The time is short.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: lee steinmeyer

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:42 AM

Love it, keep it coming!
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:56 AM

We argue over so much, we allow falsehood to lead yet it really is as simple as the crucified thief. Remember me Lord when You come into Your kingdom.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by warrior
We argue over so much, we allow falsehood to lead yet it really is as simple as the crucified thief. Remember me Lord when You come into Your kingdom.


Amen warrior.
There is more that connects us than separates us but false teachers and prophets and those born of the seed of the serpent have long whispered to humans, "Surely God didn't say....." and "God created evil you know....." and "you can do this alone" and on and on.

You're correct warrior. It's God grace given to us as a gift.... not as a prize.
So that no one may boast.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:27 AM

Granted, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, along with a host of other things like drunkeness.

Jesus said that divorce (except for adultery) is a sin. So how many Christians are living in sin when they go to church with their new spouse? Why is Christians' special hatred reserved for gay people and not for divorced people?

Don't tell me the Bible isn't open to interpretation. I see Christians interpret the Bible for themselves all the time.

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:27 AM

But, but, but......
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:29 AM

Adam's response, it was that woman that You gave me.

James, my dear friend your kicking against the goads is as old as the beginning of time.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:51 AM

i never could get the preacher to answer questions like that when i was a kid either. i would get a response but never an answer
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by James
Granted, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, along with a host of other things like drunkeness.

Jesus said that divorce (except for adultery) is a sin. So how many Christians are living in sin when they go to church with their new spouse? Why is Christians' special hatred reserved for gay people and not for divorced people?

Don't tell me the Bible isn't open to interpretation. I see Christians interpret the Bible for themselves all the time.

Jim

I agree, you're right. Homosexuality is as much of a sin as adultery. Same goes with drunkeness and gluttony. What sects are saying otherwise?
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 05:27 AM

The preacher should never be a celebrity. I think they should be anonymous as possible. They should not seek praise or acknowledgement of themselves.

This is what's important in the bible:

"Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Keith
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by KeithC
The preacher should never be a celebrity. I think they should be anonymous as possible. They should not seek praise or acknowledgement of themselves.

This is what's important in the bible:

"Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Keith

+1
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
i never could get the preacher to answer questions like that when i was a kid either. i would get a response but never an answer


And we won't get an answer here either.

Jim
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:24 AM

Time for some people to get back to talking about trapping.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by James
I see Christians interpret the Bible for themselves all the time. Jim


that's a human issue.

it applies to EVERY grouping of people.

you only seem to take offense when Christians are guilty of it.

Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by James
I see Christians interpret the Bible for themselves all the time. Jim


and I see lawyers interpreting the law and twisting the truth into pretzels to benefit their clients' interest, at the expense of others.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by danny clifton
i never could get the preacher to answer questions like that when i was a kid either. i would get a response but never an answer


And we won't get an answer here either.

Jim

I suspect the Pharisees were arguing over how to legally, according to Mosaic law, get divorced. They weren't truly worried about what God thought of marriage. Adultery was the example used to point out marriage wasn't something to just throw away.
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:52 AM

Now James and Danny answer me a question. When you think of what God would look like, do you see Jesus?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:55 AM

It's ages old and it still exists. Human nature.

Sincerely, those who demand to hear precise exact perfect answers from people must know;
don't miss this >>>> you're asking the wrong person.
The Gospel of John, especially chapter 8 is really explicit on this.

Sinful people who have humbly sought God's face through His Son Jesus are typically doing about the best they can with what they they got. Literally.
So, the Bible is available and with the help of the Holy Spirit, Truth can be sought through the Word of God.
It's best to interpret with other faithful souls so as to guard against prideful "knowing it all."

Some might smile at this kind of answer but it's biblical and therein lies the answer for sincere hearts. You will know Him through the hearing of His Word.
If you believe the Bible is God's Word or at least come with an humble nature.

We always remember the biblical narrative that hard hearts don't come to listen, they come to provoke, accuse, or silence.
It's in the Old Testament writings everywhere and it's certainly in the NT where people didn't recognize or want to hear from God.
He came as the Lamb, and they demanded a Lion of Judah, so they accused Him with nonstop questions, didn't like his answers, and killed Him.

We pray always God gathers more to Himself before the Trumpet sounds.
Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Chancey
Great post Mark, I think it speaks directly to all of us believers as far as God's way as to where we are in our walk with our Lord and Savior.

I'm a rotten individual, and when I read the Bible; especially The Revelation, I know that I am the Lukewarm Church - The Laodiceans.
I hate it that I am that, but I'm certain that is where I belong. There are a lot of things I need to fix.

It is my opinion, that when we asked Jesus into our hearts to be our Lord and Savior, He truly does live within us. It is our responsibility and ambassadorship to show up daily! I fail in many ways; and depend on His Grace and Mercy to get me through it. I realize that I'm a rotten individual, but then I think of the wonderful opportunity I have. I have 5 different Bibles that I read from, also the ability to research anything I want. I've never been persecuted, and I can speak freely about what I want. I can study the Bible all I want and make my own decisions about Truth.

In China today, Xi Xinping is destroying all Christian Churches, Mosques, Hindu Temples, etc. He if proclaiming himself as the Holy Ruler and is incorporating his pictures and glory in all grade school textbooks.

Jesus Christ lives within each and every one of us believers. The Religion of Christianity may be dying because of deception, but I think the Church is strong. Our bodies and the way we treat one another is the Church in my opinion.

The below videos are very powerful to me. It narrows the focus and puts things into perspective, and brings me to tears.

All flesh is grass, but the Word of our Lord will stand forever!!

We are all sinners, yet for the Grace of the Lord God Almighty. Thank you Jesus!!


Thank you for this post. I still recall one of my favorite profs John Hannah saying; God seems apparent oftentimes to people who undergo great tragedy.... and every human will undergo great tragedy. Whether we blame God or thank God during these times is how it all really plays out.
Dr. Hannah grew up as a street urchin on the streets of Philadelphia. Smart. Humble. Straight shooter.

There is wonder to it all THANK GOD.

Blessings!
Mark
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:09 AM

J Staton, no. If I imagine a god like the bible describes I see a man in a black leather skin tight jumpsuit, sunglasses with mirrors, an old style biker hat, lineman boots and wearing a dog collar with spikes. A pair of shackles in one hand and slip joint pliers in the other
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:28 AM

When I picture Jesus, I see the worlds first hippie. Make love not war kinda guy. No job, no ambition, living off the generosity of others. A man tortured to death for refusing to assimilate. All the stories of him being holy evolving out of anger and frustration. Getting more wild after all the people who knew him were dead.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by J Staton
Now James and Danny answer me a question. When you think of what God would look like, do you see Jesus?


That's actually very close to would be termed someone's "worldview" and our worldview pretty much determines our answers to basic life questions.
The 1st worldview that dials in the scope would be; "Why is there something from nothing?" How we answer this is predictive to the next basic question, "Why do we exist?"
From our 1st answer logically flows the next answers in most cases anthropologists have studied.

Most of the millions of humanity, no matter the culture, wander without giving too much thought to these questions, but it's in us all.
The Roman Poet Virgil is famous for penning; By the choice of our gods, we choose our destiny.
Pretty much.... for all the gods,
except followers of Christ who are unique in saying, "He first loved us."

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Kevin Stake

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:51 AM

Sin is sin. None is any bigger than the other. Murder versus a little white lie. Asking to be forgiven for the sins you did and truly mean it. God will forgive you. I’m not the judge, God is. I am far from perfect. Nobody is perfect living on this earth, although many think they are. Every knee will bow to God one day. It’s up to each person if they want to believe it.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:57 AM

Mark, why does there have to be something from nothing? Isnt the "nothing" theory just one possibility?

Kevin Stake we all know that is what the bible says. The question was:

Quote
Jesus said that divorce (except for adultery) is a sin. So how many Christians are living in sin when they go to church with their new spouse? Why is Christians' special hatred reserved for gay people and not for divorced people?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Mark, why does there have to be something from nothing? Isnt the "nothing" theory just one possibility?

Kevin Stake we all know that is what the bible says. The question was:

Quote
Jesus said that divorce (except for adultery) is a sin. So how many Christians are living in sin when they go to church with their new spouse? Why is Christians' special hatred reserved for gay people and not for divorced people?


Yes, danny it is. In a functional sense, the atheist view is there is no God and something always existed. Hardly anyone takes this view at a serious level in this age of "serious answers." Agnostics, positivists, scientivists, marxists, and existentialism (realism), all come from this worldview in most scholar's opinions. Too often scholars say, it is assumed in university educational settings that an atheistic posture is a scientific, critical, middle of the road position, but it's viewed as none of these. It is simply a subjective position.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Kevin Stake

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:34 PM

Bowhunter, don’t put all truck drivers in one category. I have my CDL and I’m sure Danny drives also. Don’t put us all in the same basket. Yes many drivers are slobs and shouldn’t have a CDL.

Danny, all I can say is ask Jesus for forgiveness. God is the judge not me. My sister just got a divorce and I believe God forgave her. That’s all I can say.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:37 PM

I believe Bowhunter was trying to point out the "error" of lumping everyone as being the same. grin
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 12:40 PM

Bowhunter, its a fool who doesn't judge others. Else you will be taken advantage of, your family wont be safe.
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:05 PM

Forgiveness is a foundational part of Christianity but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for badness/sin.

Oh....I'll just divorce and remain....and ask for forgiveness...That's why Jesus died... crazy

Too many excuse their willful sins as just simple imperfect and say Jesus will forgive. Hebrews 10:26.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Bowhunter, its a fool who doesn't judge others. Else you will be taken advantage of, your family wont be safe.




Safe? Is the being taken advantage of bodily injury or loss of freedom?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:35 PM

We all abide under the wrath of God until we're born again or regenerated or whatever you choose to call it. I would'nt desire to rob someone of a hope God's mercy can be extended even to them.

Gay, divorced, drug addicted or whatever it happens to be, Christ came to seek and save sinners. Paul said he was the chief of sinners. Maybe, but I was a contender.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 01:48 PM

Why do you get so upset when someone says they don't believe and then says why? Its not a personal attack.

FWIW when log books were still hand written I didnt know anybody that stayed within its parameters and did not lie. I myself can't remember a single day where I drove what I logged.

It has not changed either. All time spent loading and unloading and all time waiting to load or unload and all time waiting for dispatch, is to be logged on duty not driving. Time that counts against the 70 hours in 8 days allowed to be used for working/driving. NO ONE I know, does not go offduty if the truck isn't moving after 15 minutes for loading, unloading, fuel, pretrip etc.


Mark dont play games. You know exactly what I meant by safe.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:13 PM

I have no idea and was trying to see your perspective?
If I ask a clarifying question, I'm. "told" to not "play games."
How convenient for your monolog.
You alone will do all the asking?




Posted By: ILcooner

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:29 PM

this kind of theological discussion bore most who seek a sense of community and belonging at a church. Many of the younger generation want to be part of something bigger than themselves in worship to God but don't find it in most current day churches who bicker over minor doctrinal differences.

Its no wonder church attendance continues to decline.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx



[Linked Image]

Not hard to see this trend is not sustainable.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:45 PM

I think the decline is the result of the world getting smaller. First radio, then TV, now computers. It took a couple weeks to get from New York City to San Francisco in 1900 by train. For most people it took longer as the trip was to arduous. Now its a few hours on a plane with a reclining seat and a movie. In 1900 a trip to Europe took two or three weeks once the traveler got to New York. Now a just graduated high school student in rural AK can be in London in less than 24 hours. Peoples view is not limited to their immediate community. That same decline is evident world wide in all religion
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 02:54 PM

People have long discussed the things that matter ILcooner and a few today would say theology fits that mold.

The reason church attendance is down isn't for the reasons you offer and even if it were...
Is the primary reason people go to church for a sense of community?
If so, they'll drift.
Not to say believers aren't called to edify and encourage one another, but let's be honest, culture will win that siren song. All sorts of fun gatherings every Sunday, or Wednesday or whenever.
Eat, drink, and be Merry is the history of human culture.
Jesus didn't start a club, he started a movement. His.

Remember too that Tman isn't a church. It's an Internet forum where opinions are discussed. A thread. Back and forth amongst friends.
Ever argue with your mom? Dad? Still love 'em?
Kinda like TMan'ers. laugh
Right Jim!

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:09 PM

Even the lyricists have a heartbeat on why people don't seek divine counsel anymore.

Sing it Bob....

Posted By: waggler

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by CaptGus
How you feel about this service? Just a minor doctrinal difference, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEn-73Bu7ic

Well, I admire their enthusiasm. I know the ONE passage of scripture they rely on in order to explain/justify their rather strange practices. I won't go into why I think they are more than a little misdirected though.
However, when I see any church whose congregation has no young people in it I can be fairly certain there is some sort of problem in that church.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:14 PM

Back to the original purpose of this thread and the movie trailers; Where is the movie available that was being promoted by the trailers? Did I miss a link to it?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by waggler
Back to the original purpose of this thread and the movie trailers; Where is the movie available that was being promoted by the trailers? Did I miss a link to it?




The movie is two plus hours... I think Youtube would have all of it in segments for free to watch?

Anyway, here's the 1st hour...

Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:38 PM

A guy in front of me in church this past Sunday was busy sipping on a cup of coffee and checking his phone when he wasn't busy looking around. That was during the service. It's quite likely he isn't a believer and that casual approach to the things of God is common today. It irritated me but it gave me the opportunity to pray for him.

I don't doubt that if you quizzed most pastors they'd say they estimate less than half of their attendees truly know the Lord, or are known of Him. That might be being generous.
Posted By: ILcooner

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by CaptGus
How you feel about this service? Just a minor doctrinal difference, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEn-73Bu7ic


LOL

When the rattlers and the cyanide come out, RUN!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
A guy in front of me in church this past Sunday was busy sipping on a cup of coffee and checking his phone when he wasn't busy looking around. That was during the service. It's quite likely he isn't a believer and that casual approach to the things of God is common today. It irritated me but it gave me the opportunity to pray for him.

I don't doubt that if you quizzed most pastors they'd say they estimate less than half of their attendees truly know the Lord, or are known of Him. That might be being generous.


Soren Kierkegaard (early 1880's), Danish theologian and philosopher (and some call the father of existentialism = subjective truth, and a individualistic breaking away from the objective of the world) might have chipped it very close to the green when he said:
"The great reason that people now do not turn to the God of the Bible is no longer intellectual; it is because they refuse to bow their knees before the Living God."

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Fisher Man

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:31 PM

I believe that the church enrollment decline has much to do with the church's themselves. In some churches they appear to pick everybody and anybody in there desperate search for pastors.How many times have I had to sit through an off base boring sermon? I remember being forced to attend communicant classes and then having to stand before the entire church and "confess" my beliefs and become a member. Even though I was really to young to really know. It was the "right thing to do".
I remember other churches that prohibited dancing or fishing on a sunday, and all of the Catholic kids could not eat meat on friday and that church preaching that your parents were not married in the Catholic church they really were not married. Meanwhile how many priests were sexually molesting young boys?Being called a "Black Protestant".
In one church I attend they routinely keep moving ministers around.
These days a number of churches have opted into or considering allowing gay marriages or ordaining gay pastors.
I'm a member of the Free and Accepted Masons which are looked down upon by the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans.
Remember how the Vatican played footsies with the Nazis during WWII? How about the religous divide between northern and southern Ireland?
I consider myself a Christian but the above mentioned things have sure left a sour taste in my mouth.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:51 PM

The cool thing about God, he allows some people to believe he is good and wants prosperity and healing and good things. You know, if a kid asks his dad for a loaf of bread only an evil father will provide him with a snake.

And he allows others to believe God gives them cancer to teach them a lesson and that he takes young kids from their parents because he needs a rose on the mantle of heaven.

I can choose to believe the bible and there is nothing anyone can say that will dissuade my beliefs.

(allows = freedom of will)


Ain’t it cool.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:53 PM

Thus the theme of this post Fisher Man.
There's never been a perfect believer and there will never be a perfect church until Christ returns a 2nd time, but the traditional Apostolic Marks and Works of an orthodox Christian Church have drifted widely (as they had 500 years ago the Reformers would argue) and that's always the way us sinful humans operate. We tend to run to the opposite end of the ship of anyone we don't agree with. I'm not as guilty of that as I once was, but I'm still guilty at times.

Like the truthful lyrics.
Prone to wander (us).... Amazing Grace (God).

Glad the trumpet hasn't sounded quite yet.
Still more time for God to gather.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Dstone1992

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:54 PM

I was raised a catholic and went to catholic school for 7 years. My kids went to the same school and church for 5 years. My biggest problem with the church was that over the years it seemed like the rules and teachings were always changing to keep the membership happy. I believe that a religion is a religion and it should be taught one way no matter what you believe in and that's it. I praise those of you that do not bend the rules and have full faith in your religion.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Fisher Man
I believe that the church enrollment decline has much to do with the church's themselves. In some churches they appear to pick everybody and anybody in there desperate search for pastors.How many times have I had to sit through an off base boring sermon? I remember being forced to attend communicant classes and then having to stand before the entire church and "confess" my beliefs and become a member. Even though I was really to young to really know. It was the "right thing to do".
I remember other churches that prohibited dancing or fishing on a sunday, and all of the Catholic kids could not eat meat on friday and that church preaching that your parents were not married in the Catholic church they really were not married. Meanwhile how many priests were sexually molesting young boys?Being called a "Black Protestant".
In one church I attend they routinely keep moving ministers around.
These days a number of churches have opted into or considering allowing gay marriages or ordaining gay pastors.
I'm a member of the Free and Accepted Masons which are looked down upon by the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans.
Remember how the Vatican played footsies with the Nazis during WWII? How about the religous divide between northern and southern Ireland?
I consider myself a Christian but the above mentioned things have sure left a sour taste in my mouth.


There is a big difference between going to church and being a christian.

Don’t allow men to destroy your belief in Jesus.
Posted By: coondagger2

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Thus the theme of this post Fisher Man. There's never been a perfect believer and there will never be a perfect church until Christ returns a 2nd time


Mark, was Smyrna a "perfect" church in Revelation 2:9? I know they were warned of persecution, but I can't find any criticism of the church.
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:05 PM

I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim
Posted By: silkyplainscoyot

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by James
I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim


I'll give you a straight answer. They are both lumped in the same, James. Neither one of them are ok with God but man choses to react to one and not the other because the unnatural course of two genders of the same together. Neither are in God's favor unless they change their ways and live their lives according God's standards.
Posted By: coondagger2

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by James
I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim


Because the purpose of Christianity is to spread the Gospel and turn hearts to God. Not to judge as if we are God ourselves. I don't know how to make it any straighter for you. I don't think Christians display any extra venom towards homosexuals or any other sinners. We welcome anyone into our church, not just those who fit a certain criteria. It is our job to show those people the love of God, not to judge them and turn them away as if we are God ourselves. If I ever see someone turned away from the doors of our church it will be the last day I attend. I'm not condoning the sin of any group, and I'm not saying homosexuals should be ordained, I am simply saying it is our job to present the Gospel to these people and pray for them to be forgiven of their sins.

Your example isn't accurate. If someone came into church toting a bottle of everclear they would receive the same reaction as homosexuals holding hands. If someone came into church and stole another mans wife they would receive the same reaction as homosexuals holding hands. When Jack down the road has too many beers on Saturday night and comes into church on Sunday and gets down on his knees and asks for forgiveness, that's Christianity. Picking up the pieces of the most broken and putting them together for the Kingdom of God, that's Christianity. Using the LEAST likely of people to rise up and spread the Gospel, that's Christianity. Forgiveness because Jesus Christ died for our sins (that even includes you James). Your view of God only accepting the most holy is wildly inaccurate. That was the whole reason Jesus was sent to die for our sins. Not so we could all be perfect, but that we could be redeemed.
Posted By: ILcooner

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fisher Man
I believe that the church enrollment decline has much to do with the church's themselves. In some churches they appear to pick everybody and anybody in there desperate search for pastors.How many times have I had to sit through an off base boring sermon? I remember being forced to attend communicant classes and then having to stand before the entire church and "confess" my beliefs and become a member. Even though I was really to young to really know. It was the "right thing to do".
I remember other churches that prohibited dancing or fishing on a sunday, and all of the Catholic kids could not eat meat on friday and that church preaching that your parents were not married in the Catholic church they really were not married. Meanwhile how many priests were sexually molesting young boys?Being called a "Black Protestant".
In one church I attend they routinely keep moving ministers around.
These days a number of churches have opted into or considering allowing gay marriages or ordaining gay pastors.
I'm a member of the Free and Accepted Masons which are looked down upon by the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans.
Remember how the Vatican played footsies with the Nazis during WWII? How about the religous divide between northern and southern Ireland?
I consider myself a Christian but the above mentioned things have sure left a sour taste in my mouth.


spot on!
Posted By: KeithC

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by James
I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim


James, your question should use the word "some" or a "few". Most Christian churches now even allow openly gay pastors and some have since the seventies. Christians are a widely disparate group of people, who even have widely disparate thoughts about Jesus.

The United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination with about 1.3 million members, has allowed gay clergy since 1972, gays since 1959 and practiced gay marriage since 2005.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-united-church-of-christ

Most people, who are Christians, belong to this long list of churches that accept LGBTQ's now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT_people

Times have changed. There are only a relative few of the old hate the gays, but pretend to only hate the sin, Christian churches left.

Keith



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by James
I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim


wink Pay the legal fund Jim. Thank you for supporting trapping!
Well actually, to example how this works.... I will pay your $10. To who and where do I send it for Jim? A gift he has not merited. I'll cover you.

Orthodox churches would teach and possibly discipline the sin, while embracing the sinner (everyone).
You're confusing legalism (Old Testament Rules and Regs meant to turn Israel's heart to YHWH) with the New Covenant (Testament) of Jesus.
Faith though Christ only.

Toss the legalism. It's heresy.
Ain't nothing we can do but thank God for Grace.
No need to despise the sinner in the pew next to you unless you yourself hold on to legalism, condemned by Jesus, and may still coming to grips with the grandeur of God's gift of Grace to those who never merited any of it.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 06:50 PM

Mark, would you preach in a church that had a gay couple holding hands in the front row?

Jim
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:05 PM

Jim,
Hold on a sec.
You skipped right over my answer to your last question as if it was not given?
I'm no gerbil and this ain't no wheel so if you're sincere in the questions, I'm sincere in my answers.
Which (you're the legal mind) you know you can either; A. disregard answer and continue as planned, B. Interact with own comments C. Keep opponent on the defensive always
You chose A and possibly C.
I choose B.

In all sincerity.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:19 PM

I will bet ten bucks you WOULD bet ten bucks lol
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:28 PM

after reading the "answers" I start wondering why there are no stories of bakers refusing to make a cake for divorced people, why nobody is saying we are in moral decline due to people getting remarried, nobody wringing their hands over twice married people adopting, and why twice married people dont feel a need to hold parades in order to gain some social acceptance.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:34 PM

After reading the answers, it appears everyone on this thread has a theology.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by James
I'll try again, though I'm losing hope of getting an answer.

Why do Christians display so much rancor and venom against homosexuals, while welcoming adulterers and drunks into their churches?

The adulterers are the people who remarried except for adultery by a former spouse. Never saw a pastor eject or criticize them, though I expect a gay couple holding hands in church would receive a different kind of welcome.

Danny, I'll bet you ten bucks I don't get a straight answer.

Jim


wink Pay the legal fund Jim. Thank you for supporting trapping!
Well actually, to example how this works.... I will pay your $10. To who and where do I send it for Jim? A gift he has not merited. I'll cover you.

Orthodox churches would teach and possibly discipline the sin, while embracing the sinner (everyone).
You're confusing legalism (Old Testament Rules and Regs meant to turn Israel's heart to YHWH) with the New Covenant (Testament) of Jesus.
Faith though Christ only.

Toss the legalism. It's heresy.
Ain't nothing we can do but thank God for Grace.
No need to despise the sinner in the pew next to you unless you yourself hold on to legalism, condemned by Jesus, and may still coming to grips with the grandeur of God's gift of Grace to those who never merited any of it.

Blessings,
Mark



I didn't ignore your post, Mark, but you didn't answer my question. It's mainly the OT that condemns homosexuality--if that's "legalism" and no longer good law, please say so. Anyway, it was JESUS who said remarriage after divorce is a sin. Is that legalistic on his part?

Condemn the sin, while embracing the sinner... unless they're practicing homosexuals. Practicing adulterers and drunks are of course welcome.

One of my uncles was a devout Christian, and also a drunk. He'd drink from morning until he passed out at night. On Fridays he'd retire to his cabin on a lake with his Bible and a bottle of Scotch. He was drunk on the job--he was the boss, so he could get away with it--and anywhere else he happened to be, including in church for all I know. His wife, my aunt, used to beg the Lutheran pastor to counsel him to stop drinking, to no avail. You see, my uncle (who was a successful swimming pool contractor) was a big contributor to the church, and the pastor was afraid of losing that income stream if he alienated my uncle. My uncle died at a fairly young age from complications from alcoholism. My aunt and cousins refused to go back to that church, though they still worship God in another Lutheran church.

Christian churches routinely remarry adulterers (according to Jesus) and drunks, yet won't marry homosexuals. Explain that one, please.

Jim
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:43 PM

Why can't a gay couple attend church?

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus was all about love. It's the theme of the entire Bible.

If the couple loves each other, what is the problem? Do you think that a same sex couple that is in a dedicated and loving relationship with each other like Christ preaches is condemned to hades?

Where does the Bible prohibit homosexuality? What is the context of the verse you post?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:46 PM

Here let's start at a beginning Jim. It may bring us together on worldviews or show each other our diversity.

Major theologians would almost all agree that Genesis 1-3, the story of God's Creation and Man's Fall is true and foundational to the remainder of Scripture.
Do you believer these chapters are Truth. Not only true, but God's Truth?

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:49 PM

The legalistic Old Testament does condemn homosexuality--along with drunkenness. And I think Paul, in the New Testament, does too.

It was Jesus who said remarriage by divorced people is a sin.

Jim
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:49 PM

Coonsbane it not only prohibits it but says they should be killed.


Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination and 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 07:59 PM

The Bible says a man and a woman become one flesh once they've had a sexual relationship with each other. I don't see that condition as being dependent on marriage. Nowhere in scripture do I see the same thing suggested of same sex relationships. That coupling is always viewed as aberrant/abhorrent.

People get married, divorced and remarried all of the time in this country, sometimes before they ever set foot in church. God still acknowledges the union whether the couple has been married before or not. It doesn't mean it will be a trouble-free relationship. Sin has consequences.
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by James
The legalistic Old Testament does condemn homosexuality--along with drunkenness. And I think Paul, in the New Testament, does too.

It was Jesus who said remarriage by divorced people is a sin.

Jim


What is the context in which Paul condemns it?
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Coonsbane it not only prohibits it but says they should be killed.


Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination and 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.



Jesus tells us that to love your neighbor as yourself overrides the laws of the Old Testament.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by James
Christian churches routinely remarry adulterers (according to Jesus) and drunks, yet won't marry homosexuals. Explain that one, please.

Jim


I have an elderly friend who I've mentioned here before. He's a retired Methodist minister who graduated from Yale Divinity School. He is a dear friend of mine but the gospel has had no meaningful impact of his life that I can find. Most of those mainline denominations have been spiritually dead for years. Go there if you want to sit under ordained (by man) homosexuals and/or women. They're social clubs.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:16 PM

I thought Jesus wrote the old testament by inspiring men?
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:50 PM

Mark, I'll give you something you haven't given me: an answer. I'll give you more: you're correct in asserting I have my own religion, and now I'll give you a good part of the Gospel of James, not to be confused with the Biblical James (although I was named after him).

I believe the universe, the Big Bang, was most likely created by God--whatever he, she, or it is. It's silly to say the Creator is a "he," with male-humanlike sex organs, unless there is also a goddess or two out there in the multiverse somewhere. (But I'll refer to God as a "He," since that's the convention.)

I believe Genesis states the general truth of creation, in the correct sequence, but only metaphorical units of time, including the evolution of humans as generally described by Darwin's theory. God is responsible for the creation of life, including humans, through the process of evolution, which He also created. Evolution isn't an inevitable process; something or someone must have created it. The Bible never says God created the myriad of species (99 percent of which are extinct) by snapping His fingers.

Here, I begin to part company with Christians and Orthodox Jews. My first unanswered question, from around age 12-14, is why would an omnipotent God need a day of rest? (Sunday.) In more than fifty years, no one has ever given me a direct answer to that question. If God needs a day of rest, He's not omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, and doesn't need to rest, then this is the first of many factual errors in the Bible.

I don't know whether God communicates with humans telepathically; if not, a prayer must be said aloud to do much good. Because I've never received a voice-in-my-head response to a prayer, I doubt there is any telepathy. On the other hand, it's possible that prayers are answered by action sometimes.

I believe in the last five of the Ten Commandments. But the first five create thought crimes. I don't accept the validity of attempts to stifle thoughts, and am a strong opponent of thought crimes.

I doubt the Resurrection actually occurred. Even if we accept the hearsay accounts of witnesses (hearsay multiplied 500 times is still hearsay), there is medical precedent for people to lie in a coma several days, then recover. An alternative possibility is that Jesus had a double who impersonated him after the Crucifixion, and Jesus' real body was taken away by his followers to prevent desecration. Whether the Resurrection did occur as alleged in the Bible goes to the core of the Christian faith. It's the basis of Jesus' claim to divinity. I'm open-minded, but skeptical about this claim. Extraordinary claims must be supported by extraordinary evidence, and hearsay times 500 isn't extraordinary proof.

Mark, now that I've stated some of my beliefs, I'd appreciate your answering my prior questions about homosexuals, drunks, and adulterers.

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
The Bible says a man and a woman become one flesh once they've had a sexual relationship with each other. I don't see that condition as being dependent on marriage. Nowhere in scripture do I see the same thing suggested of same sex relationships. That coupling is always viewed as aberrant/abhorrent.

People get married, divorced and remarried all of the time in this country, sometimes before they ever set foot in church. God still acknowledges the union whether the couple has been married before or not. It doesn't mean it will be a trouble-free relationship. Sin has consequences.



Sheesh, are you going to make me look up, copy, and paste the part of the Gospels (I think its in Matthew) where Jesus condemns remarriage AGAIN? Don't you read the Bible yourself?

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 08:58 PM

Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?

Jim
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:01 PM

Many times I've said "That's enough work for today." Sometimes I do it because I'm tried and need a break, sometimes because I'm getting bored with the task I'm doing and sometimes I just look at all that I've accomplished and say that's enough for now.

Just because God took a day of rest doesn't mean he was tired. After creating the heavens and earth he just said, "That's enough for today."
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by James

Here, I begin to part company with Christians and Orthodox Jews. My first unanswered question, from around age 12-14, is why would an omnipotent God need a day of rest? (Sunday.) In more than fifty years, no one has ever given me a direct answer to that question. If God needs a day of rest, He's not omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, and doesn't need to rest, then this is the first of many factual errors in the Bible.



Mark, now that I've stated some of my beliefs, I'd appreciate your answering my prior questions about homosexuals, drunks, and adulterers.

Jim



Regarding his day of rest. He didn't need it. Just like we don't need a nice steak. But we do enjoy it, right? That is what his day of rest is, a time to sit back and enjoy the satisfaction of his creation.

I left your last question in there because its a good question.
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by James
Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?

Jim



Jim,

Look at the context. Does he go on and tell us the consequences of this adultery?
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by Posco
The Bible says a man and a woman become one flesh once they've had a sexual relationship with each other. I don't see that condition as being dependent on marriage. Nowhere in scripture do I see the same thing suggested of same sex relationships. That coupling is always viewed as aberrant/abhorrent.

People get married, divorced and remarried all of the time in this country, sometimes before they ever set foot in church. God still acknowledges the union whether the couple has been married before or not. It doesn't mean it will be a trouble-free relationship. Sin has consequences.



Sheesh, are you going to make me look up, copy, and paste the part of the Gospels (I think its in Matthew) where Jesus condemns remarriage AGAIN? Don't you read the Bible yourself?

Jim

How many husbands did the woman at the well have? She didn't point it out, Jesus did. He didn't condemn her. You want your sin condoned. It won't happen.
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Originally Posted by James
Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?

Jim



Jim,

Look at the context. Does he go on and tell us the consequences of this adultery?

Adulterers will not inherit God's Kingdom.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Originally Posted by James
The legalistic Old Testament does condemn homosexuality--along with drunkenness. And I think Paul, in the New Testament, does too.

It was Jesus who said remarriage by divorced people is a sin.

Jim


What is the context in which Paul condemns it?


Romans 1: 26-27
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Jude 1:7
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Originally Posted by James
Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?

Jim



Jim,

Look at the context. Does he go on and tell us the consequences of this adultery?


If we look at the context of a statement, we're interpreting it. The context might be disputed or unclear itself. (Talking mainly to Warrior.)

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:29 PM

Yotetrapper, I'm not inclined to look up all those passages. Why don't you cite and quote them, as I did.

Jim
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, I'm not inclined to look up all those passages. Why don't you cite and quote them, as I did.

Jim


Jim, I was replying to Coonsbane. They're just the references to homosexuality in the new testament.
Posted By: uglyduck

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:37 PM

[quote=Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?

[/quote]
this has to do with men of that time, dumping the old wife , to get the new hot trophy wife. and still happens today.
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:40 PM

So, Jim, what "sin" are you begrudgingly holding onto to keep tossing up all these "yeah buts"?

Actually it's none of our business and it matters not in the grand scheme of things because the entirety of humanity stands condemned in our own individual sins. All that matters for all eternity is just the one life you, and each of us separately, are accountable for, your own.

So regardless of the sins of others what say you? The entirety of the church could all be wrong, are you going down with them? In all the vastness of time and space it all comes down to just two, you and Jesus.

This is what we mean by a personal relationship.
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Many times I've said "That's enough work for today." Sometimes I do it because I'm tried and need a break, sometimes because I'm getting bored with the task I'm doing and sometimes I just look at all that I've accomplished and say that's enough for now.

Just because God took a day of rest doesn't mean he was tired. After creating the heavens and earth he just said, "That's enough for today."


A plausible response. But your theory's main weakness: doesn't it require the Bible's use of the word "rest" to mean something other than to rest? Interpretation again!

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by warrior
So, Jim, what "sin" are you begrudgingly holding onto to keep tossing up all these "yeah buts"?

Actually it's none of our business and it matters not in the grand scheme of things because the entirety of humanity stands condemned in our own individual sins. All that matters for all eternity is just the one life you, and each of us separately, are accountable for, your own.

So regardless of the sins of others what say you? The entirety of the church could all be wrong, are you going down with them? In all the vastness of time and space it all comes down to just two, you and Jesus.

This is what we mean by a personal relationship.


I've committed more than my share of sins against fellow human beings. You're correct that my sins are none of your business. I condemn myself every day for these sins. Maybe that's God's punishment, I don't know.

Jim
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Many times I've said "That's enough work for today." Sometimes I do it because I'm tried and need a break, sometimes because I'm getting bored with the task I'm doing and sometimes I just look at all that I've accomplished and say that's enough for now.

Just because God took a day of rest doesn't mean he was tired. After creating the heavens and earth he just said, "That's enough for today."


A plausible response. But your theory's main weakness: doesn't it require the Bible's use of the word "rest" to mean something other than to rest? Interpretation again!

Jim


No interpretation needed. The Bible says he rested. Doesn't say why. Just says he rested. Nothing to interpret there.
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:00 PM

"Doesn't say 'why'?"

I'm asking why. Why did you need a day to rest after creation, God?"

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by oneuglyduck
[quote=Matthew 19:9:

"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Where's Warrior? Didn't he say the Bible is not open to interpretation?


this has to do with men of that time, dumping the old wife , to get the new hot trophy wife. and still happens today.[/quote]

You are indeed correct. And humans, including professing Christians continue to sin left right and center. It is our nature.

Nowhere in scripture are we promised perfection on this plane. It would be lovely if all desire and ability to sin was erased at the moment of salvation but what sort of salvation would that be. God created us in his image as free will beings he wants us to want Him. As a follower we are to do just that follow always striving to seek His path. Sadly we often fail.

However, it seems to many here that the mere presence of sin or failure is proof positive in the errancy of the Word. On the contrary if is proof positive of the inerrancy of the Word for all of this was taught to us by Jesus. He told us exactly of our nature and of who and what we are yet He still offers forgiveness.

Also many would hold these sins to be exclusive of redemption yet Peter who spent three years walking side by side with Jesus and was witness to events that no mere human could do, Peter himself got out of the boat to go to Jesus, Peter was present at the transfiguration when Jesus in all his eternal glory could be seen yet this same Peter vehemently denied Christ three times to save his own sorry neck.

Done deal, end of story to some of you yet our Lord sought out Peter when Peter had given up on Peter. When there was no hope Christ's redemption is at it's greatest.

Now that is not to say, as Paul warned us, that sinning is just more opportunity for God's grace. That is just folly as God himself warned us the He shall not be mocked. And there are examples after examples throughout where God Himself dealt with this as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira for we are told that God disciplines His own.

It is not for us to say who deserves what or how as we can barely account for our own.
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:08 PM

I'll ask him if I get the chance. I won't speak for him. Speaking for myself, if I just created the entire universe I'd probably take the next day off too. Probably have a few beers by the campfire too!
Posted By: bblwi

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:20 PM

If the Bible is not open to interpretation than a couple billion Christians have been down a very narrow and dark path and by those who proclaim to have the guidance to make the decision on what the congregations or even the masses should hear.

I actually enjoy and learn much from our Bible study of lay peers reading a passage or two and we discuss the settings and applications for the time it was written and for today. If that makes one a heathen Christian than I will raise my hand and accept the judgement.

Bryce
Posted By: CoonsBane

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:28 PM

I'm not saying the bible isn't open to interpretation. Jesus spoke in parables that require us to discuss and interpret. But some things in the bible are just statements. He rested.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:30 PM

what James seems to be forgetting is that God, Himself sets the rules in His courtroom.

so no matter how much your legalistic tactics hold sway here on earth (and in your own diseased mind), He can just say "Over Ruled" and your whole house of cards come crashing down.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:31 PM

Some of this just God of the Bible thumping is going to seem like poppycock to the unbeliever.
But God's Word tells us why.

Hebrew Scripture paints a perfectly accurate picture;
Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him. Proverbs 27:22.

One of the most concise from the NT (there are more - it's a NT theme) is Paul's letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor 1:18-31);

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written,“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE (Isaiah 29:14).”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God.
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”


There can be no honest search for Bible answers when God tells us that the Spirit illuminates one and not the other. Discuss sure. But search for honest meanings is a believer endeavor by those called to Him by Grace through Jesus.
Thank God!
We pray more will be gathered to the Light of the World.

Blessings,
Mark

Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:35 PM

The LORD Speaks
From Out of a Storm
1From out of a storm,

the LORD said to Job:

2Why do you talk so much

when you know so little?

3Now get ready to face me!

Can you answer

the questions I ask?

4How did I lay the foundation

for the earth?

Were you there?

5Doubtless you know who decided

its length and width.

6What supports the foundation?

Who placed the cornerstone,

7 while morning stars sang,

and angels rejoiced?

8 When the ocean was born,

I set its boundaries

9and wrapped it in blankets

of thickest fog.

10Then I built a wall around it,

locked the gates, 11and said,

“Your powerful waves stop here!

They can go no farther.”

Did You Ever Tell the Sun To Rise?
12Did you ever tell the sun to rise?

And did it obey?

13Did it take hold of the earth

and shake out the wicked

like dust from a rug?

14Early dawn outlines the hills

like stitches on clothing

or sketches on clay.

15But its light is too much

for those who are evil,

and their power is broken.

16Job, have you ever walked

on the ocean floor?

17Have you seen the gate

to the world of the dead?

18And how large is the earth?

Tell me, if you know!

19Where is the home of light,

and where does darkness live?

20Can you lead them home?

21I'm certain you must be able to,

since you were already born

when I created everything.

22Have you been to the places

where I keep snow and hail,

23until I use them to punish

and conquer nations?

24From where does lightning leap,

or the east wind blow?

25Who carves out a path

for thunderstorms?

Who sends torrents of rain

26on empty deserts

where no one lives?

27Rain that changes barren land

to meadows green with grass.

28Who is the father of the dew

and of the rain?

29Who gives birth to the sleet

and the frost

30that fall in winter,

when streams and lakes

freeze solid as a rock?

Can You Arrange Stars?
31 Can you arrange stars in groups

such as Orion

and the Pleiades?

32Do you control the stars

or set in place the Big Dipper

and the Little Dipper?

33Do you know the laws

that govern the heavens,

and can you make them rule

the earth?

34Can you order the clouds

to send a downpour,

35or will lightning flash

at your command?

36Did you teach birds to know

that rain or floods

are on their way?+

37Can you count the clouds

or pour out their water

38on the dry, lumpy soil?

39When lions are hungry,

do you help them hunt?

40Do you send an animal

into their den?

41And when starving young ravens

cry out to me for food,

do you satisfy their hunger?
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:37 PM

I win the bet with myself. Mark didn't address my question.

Jim
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by James
Don't you read the Bible yourself?

Jim

I didn't answer your question. On average, I spend one to three hours a day in the Bible. Faith cometh by hearing...I listen to Alexander Scourby's narration of the Bible in my daily travels.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:38 PM

You win. I lose.
Do you understand this sentence? wink
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:39 PM

Would you marry an adulterous couple, while refusing to marry a gay couple?

Jim
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:43 PM

James, I find you coy and conciliatory when someone is stroking your ego and passive/aggressive to those that don't.
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by white marlin
The LORD Speaks
From Out of a Storm
1From out of a storm,

the LORD said to Job:

2Why do you talk so much

when you know so little?

3Now get ready to face me!

Can you answer

the questions I ask?

4How did I lay the foundation

for the earth?

Were you there?

5Doubtless you know who decided

its length and width.

6What supports the foundation?

Who placed the cornerstone,

7 while morning stars sang,

and angels rejoiced?

8 When the ocean was born,

I set its boundaries

9and wrapped it in blankets

of thickest fog.

10Then I built a wall around it,

locked the gates, 11and said,

“Your powerful waves stop here!

They can go no farther.”

Did You Ever Tell the Sun To Rise?
12Did you ever tell the sun to rise?

And did it obey?

13Did it take hold of the earth

and shake out the wicked

like dust from a rug?

14Early dawn outlines the hills

like stitches on clothing

or sketches on clay.

15But its light is too much

for those who are evil,

and their power is broken.

16Job, have you ever walked

on the ocean floor?

17Have you seen the gate

to the world of the dead?

18And how large is the earth?

Tell me, if you know!

19Where is the home of light,

and where does darkness live?

20Can you lead them home?

21I'm certain you must be able to,

since you were already born

when I created everything.

22Have you been to the places

where I keep snow and hail,

23until I use them to punish

and conquer nations?

24From where does lightning leap,

or the east wind blow?

25Who carves out a path

for thunderstorms?

Who sends torrents of rain

26on empty deserts

where no one lives?

27Rain that changes barren land

to meadows green with grass.

28Who is the father of the dew

and of the rain?

29Who gives birth to the sleet

and the frost

30that fall in winter,

when streams and lakes

freeze solid as a rock?

Can You Arrange Stars?
31 Can you arrange stars in groups

such as Orion

and the Pleiades?

32Do you control the stars

or set in place the Big Dipper

and the Little Dipper?

33Do you know the laws

that govern the heavens,

and can you make them rule

the earth?

34Can you order the clouds

to send a downpour,

35or will lightning flash

at your command?

36Did you teach birds to know

that rain or floods

are on their way?+

37Can you count the clouds

or pour out their water

38on the dry, lumpy soil?

39When lions are hungry,

do you help them hunt?

40Do you send an animal

into their den?

41And when starving young ravens

cry out to me for food,

do you satisfy their hunger?



The eternal mic drop!
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
James, I find you coy and conciliatory when someone is stroking your ego and passive/aggressive to those that don't.


If true, that's something I should work on. Examples, please.

Jim
Posted By: Chancey

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 10:50 PM

Some just don't have any clue about the Bible or its teachings. I know they have never read the entire Bible as it was meant to be interpreted as a Whole due to their posts. They like to take scripture out of context and mock those that follow the scripture with it. Just like the great deceiver. Every time the god of this world quotes scripture, do your homework, he either took it out of context or deliberately presumed something that was not there.

If we are honest with ourselves, none of us can live by the 10 Commandments. Furthermore, Jesus took the 10 Commandments and raised the bar to the 10,000th degree during His Sermon on the Mount. We are all sinners and that is why He was sent. With some of the logic on here, no one would be able to get married, and the entire concept would be null and void b/c every man on the planet earth has committed adultery.....Mathew 4:27-28. Chancey
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
You win. I lose.
Do you understand this sentence? wink


Okay, Mark. Maybe this comes at a bad time for you. You're busy with other things, or need time to formulate an honest, good-faith response. I understand.

Or maybe you think I'm setting another snare. Maybe I am. Let me describe that snare to you, so you can pick it out in the brush.

I'd like you to think twice about discriminating against gays and gay couples. Times change, and our society is hardly the same as it was two or more millennia ago. We accept remarriages--even in church--and should also accept gays.

I'm not trying to make you look silly or hypocritical. Or to mock Christians or the Bible. I just want people to treat gays fairly and equally.

That's it, that's my motive.

Jim
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:02 PM

When Jim asks continuous non-stop courtroom style questions, I feel like there's a lamp over a table in a room with 4 walls, and there's a person sitting under that Jimmy heat lamp being interrogated, over and over again with Jim saying, "tell us!"

Jim you're asking the WRONG PERSON! And that IS the answer.
The person you seek is the Incarnate God-Man who came to earth to save our sorry butts and you want some of us in your hot court room seat, and we can't help you.
We can pray for you and we do. Promise. I have many times and that will not stop. I know you've had brain surgeries and I wish you well, but well wishes are human effort and in the game of real life, they are null and void except to the one saying them.

Read again please where Jesus told satan;
Jesus said to him “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’ ” (Matthew 4:7)

That's straight out of God's Word in Deuteronomy 6:16 to the Israelites who sought to "test" God and it's still prescriptive today.
Pray for a regeneration in you so that you get your answers you don't want to hear from us who are sincere in our efforts.
May God Bless is more than a bumper sticker.
It's how His Kingdom is gathered.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: uglyduck

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by James
Would you marry an adulterous couple, while refusing to marry a gay couple?


u WIN,,,, go get married to your boy friend already...
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:12 PM

Actually, I've been married to the same woman for 45 years. How about you?

Jim
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by Mark June
You win. I lose.
Do you understand this sentence? wink


Okay, Mark. Maybe this comes at a bad time for you. You're busy with other things, or need time to formulate an honest, good-faith response. I understand.

Or maybe you think I'm setting another snare. Maybe I am. Let me describe that snare to you, so you can pick it out in the brush.

I'd like you to think twice about discriminating against gays and gay couples. Times change, and our society is hardly the same as it was two or more millennia ago. We accept remarriages--even in church--and should also accept gays.

I'm not trying to make you look silly or hypocritical. Or to mock Christians or the Bible. I just want people to treat gays fairly and equally.

That's it, that's my motive.

Jim



Ok, so this is sincere and I appreciate this scenario very much.
Case in point, during my chaplaincy internship I met "Bob," a gay man married 21 years to his husband David. "Bob" had a stroke and was in Rehab doing poorly when we got the pastoral consult request from the doctor. I went in and talked with him briefly because his left side, including speech, was impaired fairly severely. David wasn't in the room at the time. When I asked if there was anything specific I could help him with as far as emotional and/or spiritual support, Bob asked for prayer. He shared that he was a Christian, but hadn't been to church in 15 years or so. So I prayed, for God to keep Bob and David comforted, to aid healing according to God's will, and for Bob to know that he is held, as a believer in the bundle of the living (1 Sam 25:29: Abigail reminding David of this), and I ended in Jesus' name, Amen. When I opened my eyes, Bob was in tears and I asked him "what the tears are telling us?" Bob told me in all his years as a believer, that was the first time anyone ever prayed for him and didn't mention "gay." He said the tears were overjoyed that he was still alive and that the tears were scared beyond words at the fear for Bob's future. I held another man's hand and assured him that God, in his wisdom and by Grace, made us all. We are all made in God's image. I have no place to judge him, but I have an obligation as a minister in the faith to lift Bob to God with a humble thank you and a petition for blessings.

Jim, this world is hurting and there is suffering everywhere. I'm the front line and the suffering sucks. Every day. All day. Some victories, and much suffering. Who caused it? Who's fault? Who cares. We move on by God's grace and perhaps this one story helps answer some of what you seek. That's not why I told it.

Bob and I talked again 8-9 times and in that time he asked me if I would marry a gay couple like he and David. I told him honestly and humbly that I would not according to my faith. Bob was ok with that and appreciated a sincere faith based answer, he told me, in a world full of what he called "sh_t."

Life is just real. And then we die.
Hope this answers your question.
I'll pay up by the way on the bet....
because our nation and its kids are dying as the adults in the room play silly games over worthless worn out topics and some of us are old and worn out, but not too old and not too worn out.
I'll be 64 next week and I've been blessed to know a bunch of cool trappers along the trail.
And I can type real fast.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:31 PM

Mark, thanks for the straight answer, and your story about Bob and David is moving and commendable on your part.

You didn't disclose whether you'd marry an adulterous (according to Jesus) straight couple, but I'll assume you would, as I've never heard of a Protestant minister who wouldn't.

Honestly, I find that position inconsistent with straightforward Biblical interpretation.

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:41 PM

James, that's unfair of you speaking for Mark. Nor shall I, but I know many ministers who will not. On the contrary most in my circle of believers would not even consider a marriage ceremony without much prayer and conversation with the couple and often families to help all involved understand the God ordained role of marriage.
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:45 PM

Curious, James what is your position on the so called "separation of church and state"?
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:56 PM

I guess to me, the difference between the gay thing versus the divorced thing is this:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 19:9

That is one sin. When you divorce your wife and marry another you have sinned. For that sin, you can repent and be forgiven.

You can also commit an act of homosexuality and be forgiven.

The difference is, that those who are gay commit the same sin, day after day. Each day they make a conscious choice to sin.

The same is true for drunkards. If they continue to drink to excess each day, they are also making a conscious choice to sin.

The drunk, the adulterer, or the homosexual can ALL be forgiven but they must "go, and sin no more.”

To condone homosexuality is to say that is is okay to consciously make the decision to sin every day when it is stated over and over again in the Bible that that is not okay.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/13/21 11:59 PM

Jim,
As you may imagine, there are things deeply studied at certain seminaries. Especially at a fundamental "Preach the Word" school like this one. I'm sure law schools come in different shades (I know they do. My dad is a retired attorney).
So, to give you a taste, I mean a slight taste, of what we do as part of studies is produce faith statements of our own based on learnings while students are here, I have written about this topic for one of my papers and I'll cut and paste a bit of it;

1. Marriage is an institution created by God for mutual supplementation, marital satisfaction, and a meaningful showcase of the relationship of God with His people (Gen. 2:18–24; 1 Cor. 7:2; Eph. 5:31–32). Exception: Although the single state is not the norm, the gift of celibacy is sometimes given to those whose passions are controlled and whose personality is centered in the Person and ministry of Christ (Gen. 2:18; Matt. 19:11, 12; 1 Cor. 7:2, 9, 32).

2. Separation leading to divorce is not the will of God and should never be voluntarily initiated since it militates against God’s ideal for union and unity in the marriage relationship (Matt. 19:6; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11). Exception: If an unbelieving partner departs, making separation unavoidable, the remaining partner is not bound to prevent the separation unto divorce. Reconciliation, however is always the first priority of God for the relationship. The second priority is for the unreconciled couple to remain unmarried with a view toward reconciliation (Matt. 19:6; Mk. 10:9; 1 Cor. 7:10–11, 15).

3. Divorce is always treacherous and hated by God because it transgresses His will for the marital relationship by causing those divorced to commit adultery (Mal. 2:16; Matt. 19:3–9; Mk. 10:6–9; 1 Cor. 7:10, 27). Exception: Divorce is biblically excused and sometimes exhorted because of the serious tragedy of extramarital sexual sin which God likens unto marrying another. However, divorce ought not to be automatic and may be an opportunity to exercise forgiveness (Deut. 24:2, 3; Hos. 1–3; Matt. 5:32; 19:9; Rom. 7:2–3; 1 Cor. 6:16).

4. Remarriage violates the priority of reconciliation and is therefore not a viable option to the believer since it constitutes and causes the partners and anyone they might marry to commit adultery (Deut. 24:1–4; Matt. 5:32; 19:9; Mk. 10:11–12; Lk. 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:11). Exception: When a marriage has been terminated by death or through the unfaithfulness and remarriage of one of the partners, remarriage of the offended partner is proper for the fulfillment of both personal and family needs (Deut. 24:1–4; Matt. 5:32; 19:9; 1 Cor. 7:2f; 1 Tim. 5:14).

Much pray and study and refection goes into all that we do and iron sharpens iron here.... we sit and argue (dialog) our positions according to the orthodoxy of the faith.
All this in preparation for ordination proceedings.

It's hard because it's not supposed to be "he was ordained at age 9 by the holy communion of his momma's uncles!" like is going on all day every day lately.

So, there is context and much to be discussed with any couple, male and female, who wish to enter into the Genesis 2:24 covenant of "one flesh" before God. Marriage is technically a civil authority arrangement and that's not the church's business.

You getting married? Again? grin
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
I guess to me, the difference between the gay thing versus the divorced thing is this:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 19:9

That is one sin. When you divorce your wife and marry another you have sinned. For that sin, you can repent and be forgiven.

You can also commit an act of homosexuality and be forgiven.

The difference is, that those who are gay commit the same sin, day after day. Each day they make a conscious choice to sin.

The same is true for drunkards. If they continue to drink to excess each day, they are also making a conscious choice to sin.

The drunk, the adulterer, or the homosexual can ALL be forgiven but they must "go, and sin no more.”

To condone homosexuality is to say that is is okay to consciously make the decision to sin every day when it is stated over and over again in the Bible that that is not okay.


The same argument applies equally to remarried adulterers. They continue to practice their sin, and sit in church with their co-sinner.

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 12:09 AM

"4. Remarriage violates the priority of reconciliation and is therefore not a viable option to the believer since it constitutes and causes the partners and anyone they might marry to commit adultery."

I understand, and don't mean to emphasize one point of yours to the neglect of the rest, but that's what I've been saying. Does that mean you wouldn't marry such people?

Jim
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 12:54 AM

I'm just not sure why you want to boil it down to yes and no? There are 100 variables in 100 couples. It's easier to cookie cutter yes or no, but that perhaps discounts the reverence due this serious matter.
Look, folks can get married any old where they want these days. It's a civil legal arrangement and 1M places marry folks.
Personally, I have come alongside very good pastor teachers and they have taught me one thing about the Lord's 8 billion image bearers..... no two are alike. It is a marvel of the order yet diversity of a Divine Creator, and if God takes the initiative to craft each one according to God's purpose, the least we can do is work with each person, sinners we all are, to search what God would have us do.

My comfort level is spelled out in my faith statement paper.
And it'll depend and in all of it we seek God's Grace in us.

Perhaps as important is.... having surrendered the Christian concept of man, Western humanity is in crisis. Apart from an infinite personal God, man no longer has a place in the universe, and secularists celebrate that.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:04 AM

I admit I have a personal God.

Jim
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
I guess to me, the difference between the gay thing versus the divorced thing is this:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 19:9

That is one sin. When you divorce your wife and marry another you have sinned. For that sin, you can repent and be forgiven.

You can also commit an act of homosexuality and be forgiven.

The difference is, that those who are gay commit the same sin, day after day. Each day they make a conscious choice to sin.

The same is true for drunkards. If they continue to drink to excess each day, they are also making a conscious choice to sin.

The drunk, the adulterer, or the homosexual can ALL be forgiven but they must "go, and sin no more.”

To condone homosexuality is to say that is is okay to consciously make the decision to sin every day when it is stated over and over again in the Bible that that is not okay.

Best explanation in this thread.
Posted By: PAlltheway

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:13 AM

One of my favorite friends is a devout Catholic. He now only goes to Latin Mass, disavows Vatican II and all that followed it, calls the current communist pope the “anti-Pope,” and says Protestantism is heresy and Protestants are heretics. The implication is that the brutal Inquisition that gave rise to Protestantism in the first place would be a joyful time again. Then Mark’s comment above about the Torah being “legalistic” and therefore “heresy” reminds me why I left the church at age twenty and never looked back. Every Wednesday and Sunday I’d be berated by self righteous hypocrites, judging harshly everyone around them. I was glad to go. It may all be a big mess, as this debate demonstrates to me, but practically speaking I don’t see a better vehicle for conveying morality and a decent society. The alternative is catastrophe, which America is staring in the face. Whatever your Christianity is, support it.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:33 AM

What a waste of time these threads are.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:39 AM

Back to the theme of my post is the revitalization of the American Church underway, is NOT what pastors, or preachers, or even priests want to do, think they should do, or feel the need to do. Our churches have become churches of social causes and have lost sight of the ecclesiastical church mission which Jesus Christ Himself commissioned (Matt 28:19-20).

And there has been huge divergence from Jesus' sending of the Comforter and His Acts 2 ordination with the Spirit
upon all the first church planters (Apostles = those who had seen the Risen Jesus personally). There have been no Apostles since.

Apostles were discipled and commanded by Christ to hand down what was taught to them to respectable trained overseers, elders, and deacons, which is "the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" passage of Jude 1:3.

What is that faith? That's the core 7 points based on biblical texts as "evidence." God's evidence. No quibble and no squabble. You don't agree, you're not a Christian Church.

Why is that? Because, we remember that every heretic in church history had Bible verses. Pharisees, Judaizers, Arians, Nestorians, and those of today.

So, devout men and women study today what was handed down from the Apostles and the question is really; "What were "we" handed and did we receive, protect, and pass it on properly?"
Most would say no. We need to "tighten up." Been a bunch of drifting at sea depending on what preachers and teachers "thought" best. Human wisdom.
So the return to the ancient teachings with a cultural overlay and that's where the theological mission resides.
Great news... the Spirit will guide.
As He always has, amongst it all.
Say thank you to dutiful and orthodox teachers and preachers as often as you can.
The enemy smells victory and he is relentless.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by James
I admit I have a personal God.

Jim


the guy in the mirror?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Tailhunter
What a waste of time these threads are.


Waste of time.
Waste of time.
Trying to get my MB550 around that with a dab of lure on a Q-tip.....
If you don't want to read a topic, and there are 25 topics on a page.....

SNAP!

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:59 AM

I know James has me on ignore (he curls up in a fetal position if he hears his "logic" being skewered).

but I still post....not for his benefit (his ego won't allow it); but for those who can learn from the discussion.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:02 AM

PMs are frequent during these for sure.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by James
Okay, Mark. Maybe this comes at a bad time for you. You're busy with other things, or need time to formulate an honest, good-faith response. I understand.

Or maybe you think I'm setting another snare. Maybe I am. Let me describe that snare to you, so you can pick it out in the brush.

I'd like you to think twice about discriminating against gays and gay couples. Times change, and our society is hardly the same as it was two or more millennia ago. We accept remarriages--even in church--and should also accept gays.

I'm not trying to make you look silly or hypocritical. Or to mock Christians or the Bible. I just want people to treat gays fairly and equally.

That's it, that's my motive. Jim


taking you at your word, which major religion is WORSE for homosexuals: Christianity or Islam?

why aren't you railing against Islam?
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:19 AM

James, name ONE Mosque that sanctions/performs same sex marriages in Islam.

Just ONE!!!
Posted By: J Staton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:24 AM

All I want to know is this. Maybe James can answer. If your wife poisons your children should you divorce her and take the chance of committing adulatory if you marry another? Or do you avoid that all together and tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:26 AM

I can tell you as Christianity is declining in America and Europe, Islam is growing. We're gonna find out about the treatment of humanity under Islam, where there is no person created in the image of God, but rather quite the opposite..... only servitude and submission to Allah.

People really have no idea about this religion but it's no religion of peace. Anywhere it's been.
The liberal Shiites are radical but the more conservative Sunnis aren't collaborators at heart either.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: ottertrapper

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:31 AM

Love this thread brother Mark keep on doing Gods work sir!! God Bless!
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by J Staton
All I want to know is this. Maybe James can answer. If your wife poisons your children should you divorce her and take the chance of committing adulatory if you marry another? Or do you avoid that all together and tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea?


Jesus said there is an exception for immorality of the other spouse. Murder is immoral (as well as illegal). Remarriage would be allowed, under my interpretation of Christ's teachings.

Jim
Posted By: warrior

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:53 AM

What? Everyone knows that islam is the religion of peace while christianity, the one that says to love your neighbor as thyself, is responsible for every evil under the sun.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by J Staton
All I want to know is this. Maybe James can answer. If your wife poisons your children should you divorce her and take the chance of committing adulatory if you marry another? Or do you avoid that all together and tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea?


Jesus said there is an exception for immorality of the other spouse. Murder is immoral (as well as illegal). Remarriage would be allowed, under my interpretation of Christ's teachings.

Jim


No, that's not what it says.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (KJV)
Posted By: James

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 05:05 AM

Not that it's pertinent, but it depends on what translation you use, yotetrapper.

Jim
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 09:39 AM

when you say that the treatment of homosexuals is the reason you despise Christianity (yet have no public issues with Islam); you are lying.

not just to us, but perhaps to yourself, as well.

when we see you call out Islam with equal fervor for its [WAY more!] horrendous treatment of your protected class, you may regain some credibility here.

but until then...you are unworthy of debate.

Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 09:49 AM

I dont despise Christianity, I just dont believe any of it.

Since the subject seems to be homosexuality, is it a choice or are people born that way? My son in law says it doesn't matter. If born that way they can choose to be sexless or to ignore their desires and marry a female.

Choice or birth defect?
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 09:50 AM

that's the beauty of America, danny...you don't HAVE to!

(about the only freedom we have left...for NOW!)

Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 10:08 AM

Speaking of birth defects like mental illness, why are the truly innocent afflicted? Are they being punished for sins they will commit later?
Posted By: strike2x

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 10:39 AM

Life is all choices. That is why we have free will. Many things influence choice.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 11:28 AM

Life is choices strike2x as you say. I'm Adlerian - a colleague of Sigmund Freund - who later distanced himself from Sigmund, who was writing and teaching that choices we make by age 6 determine who we become. Adler said.... no, choices in "life" determine the behaviors in adults. I agree with Adler, but Sigmund is not obsolete.

Atheists, like many people today, think they have landed in modern time intelligence more than previous generations of humans, (each generation thinks they are smarter than those who came before... ask your 16 year old) and they have found a "new" place of neutrality among all the battling tribes in America.

Well, they suffer from the age old "illusion of original thought" because atheists (There is no God, therefore something always existed) have existed since at least the 1st century AD. The new age atheists called "brights" are like the old. The same faith in nothingness. "a" (there is not) + "theos"(god) = atheist is from the Greek language and it was the disbelief in the official gods of the pagan state. This same disbelief was used against Christians in the 2nd century with vigor and then went silent for about 1900 years until now. Modern atheists are proliferating in the 20th on into this century.
And we see what that does to a culture as far as "traditional values."

With belief in no God, the free will is free to do and be whatever, whenever, to whomever.
And why not?

Blessings and I'm glad Theos didn't make a bunch of puppets for His Glory and still saves us sinners day in and day out.
Mark
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 11:42 AM

Let the dead bury their dead.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 12:08 PM

You folks sure type a lot without ever answering.

I guess attacking the questioner is easier than those age old questions
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Speaking of birth defects like mental illness, why are the truly innocent afflicted? Are they being punished for sins they will commit later?

I have a brother who has suffered from paranoid schizophrenia all of his adult life. I've asked myself those questions many times.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:20 PM

Posco I am genuinely sorry to read that. Has to be hard.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
I dont despise Christianity, I just dont believe any of it.

Since the subject seems to be homosexuality, is it a choice or are people born that way? My son in law says it doesn't matter. If born that way they can choose to be sexless or to ignore their desires and marry a female.

Choice or birth defect?

It doesn't really matter (nature versus nurture).
Some people are seem to be born with things such as kleptomania. Does that make it okay for them to go through life stealing? of course not.

Some people are born with physical birth defects, some are born with mental defects. I know it doesn't seem right, however we are born into a broken world. Some people say "it's not fair" and blame God.

God has provided an answer to this brokenness if we would just acknowledge and act on His provision.

I will admit though, the church has not historically treated broken people very well, we tend to pick and choose .
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
I dont despise Christianity, I just dont believe any of it.

Since the subject seems to be homosexuality, is it a choice or are people born that way? My son in law says it doesn't matter. If born that way they can choose to be sexless or to ignore their desires and marry a female.

Choice or birth defect?


I believe it is choice. But agree with your son in law that it doesn't matter. Say it is by birth. Does that give someone that is attracted to little kids carte blanche to follow his desires? ALL people at some point have the urge to commit sins. Whether it's murder, adultery, theft, or what have you. Just because you have that desire doesn't mean you follow through on it.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Posco I am genuinely sorry to read that. Has to be hard.

Thank you, Danny. I know that's sincere. If my brother were living in the time of the New Testament, Jesus might have cast a demon out of him. I've heard the most blasphemous things come out of his mouth one could imagine. Why? I think my brother dwells in a reality that we can't perceive but is very real to him. The maniac of Gadara comes to mind. I've seen so many of the same things displayed in his behavior it leaves me little doubt.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Posco I am genuinely sorry to read that. Has to be hard.

Thank you, Danny. I know that's sincere. If my brother were living in the time of the New Testament, Jesus might have cast a demon out of him. I've heard the most blasphemous things come out of his mouth one could imagine. Why? I think my brother dwells in a reality that we can't perceive but is very real to him. The maniac of Gadara comes to mind. I've seen so many of the same things displayed in his behavior it leaves me little doubt.


I've often thought, reading the descriptions of people whom Jesus cast demons out of, that in many cases they seemed similar to many of our mental illnesses today.
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 04:47 PM

“false teachers and false people”


Because you say so?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/14/21 04:56 PM

Nice try Tailhunter. If you read my posts, you'll see I present what is an effort by many to revitalize the church which has wandered into areas never ordained in the Bible.
If you have more than a poke at the bear, insight is always encouraged here.

Because we're not cancel culture here.
Are you?

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: Tailhunter

Re: Revitalization of the American Churches - 09/15/21 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Nice try Tailhunter. If you read my posts, you'll see I present what is an effort by many to revitalize the church which has wandered into areas never ordained in the Bible.
If you have more than a poke at the bear, insight is always encouraged here.

Because we're not cancel culture here.
Are you?

Blessings,
Mark


You can’t back out now. You put it up there for a reason and it wasn’t to be polite. Don’t you think God is big enough to handle things if they are out of line. I believe thats his job.

And the damage you could do if you are wrong …
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