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Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29

Posted By: James

Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:49 AM

King James version:

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


[/[b]New International version:


28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Can someone help me understand these verses? In verse 28, "Son of Man" means Jesus himself, right? The "regeneration" (KJV) or "renewal of all things" (NIV) refers to the second coming of Jesus to the earth? I think I get that much.

But Jesus goes on to promise each of his twelve disciples a throne from which to judge a tribe of Israel. Am I interpreting this part of verse 28 correctly? I've always been told only God (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) can judge. And who will judge all of us Gentiles? Jesus himself, or will we be divided up among the twelve disciples? I know earthly judges, and each has their own preferences and biases. I always thought I'd be judged, if at all, by God himself. God, I've always thought, would be fair, one way or the other. But a human judge makes me nervous.

I think I understand verse 29, but I can't accept my interpretation because it violates my moral upbringing. Promoting wife and child abandonment for the selfish motive of attaining great wealth and immortality? What about the lives and afterlives of the wives and children left behind?

In contrast to well-known verse 30 ("But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first"), I've never heard a priest or minister discuss Verses 28-29 from the pulpit. I don't know what to make of them.

Jim

Posted By: Oleo Acres

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:13 AM

Matthew 22:37
Posted By: amspoker

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:26 AM

Quote
Revelation 20:4-6

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years
.

I think the judgement given go them was more if the sense of a ruling, though kings were to decide judgements of the law. They will be spirit beings. And Satan will be removed. The world will be a very different place.

Those who don't come up in the first resurrection, are addressed in verses 11-15

Quote
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


I don't interpret the bible as saying that people will be tortured in a lake a fire.

God would have to give you eternal life to to that. I believe that for those that are thrown into the lake, it will be as it says here, A second death.

I don't think when it says leave family here that it exactly means total abandonment, though it may come to that at times. But more of making the Kingdom of God a priority above all else.

And to try to understand the mark on the head and the hand you will need to go read in Deuteronomy.

Just my 2 cents
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:36 AM

"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Doesn't this passage refute the idea that salvation lies in faith alone in Jesus Christ? This verse seems to be saying that you will be judged according to your faith and your deeds (good works). This verse is good support for the Catholic position.

Your interpretation, amspoker, strikes me as entirely plausible.

Jim
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:46 AM

Satan himself quoted Scripture in an effort to ensnare.

just sayin'.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:49 AM

btw...you're going to be on danny's Shiite list for posting another Bible thread.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 10:13 AM

Bible threads dont bother me. What bothers me is I am expected to ignore them. When I start a thread on my beliefs I still get chastised.



I realize a BIG part of church and religion is patting self and others on the back for being so faithful but it does get old.
Posted By: white marlin

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
Bible threads dont bother me. What bothers me is I am expected to ignore them. When I start a thread on my beliefs I still get chastised.


that must be so hurtful...
Posted By: Mark June

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:09 AM

Well, the earth (not so much heaven) in all its glory, has revolved to a place where people who don't place faith in the Bible debate people who do. Why do they care? Well, welcome y'all to the post-modern thinking age where subjective truth (whatever an individual thinks) has emerged as the faith of our times. And it's here to stay until the next round of human wonder emerges. Maybe space travel?

From the Renaissance Christians who sparked great movements in astronomy, physics, and science on into the Enlightenment Era of wonderful art, and music, and renouncing of the Renaissance folk as outdated, and into he modern era where great nations were formed like America and Darwin and Freund solved the human body and soul puzzles insisting that certain species were destined to survive over others, which led to Marx saying no, man can be more if he is not tethered to a production machine for himself alone, but rather is part of the collective of humanity or Hitler who said no, Darwin is correct, Aryans are the master race but things to cull the human herd have not taken place and the Rhineland will get right on that, to all of humanity just saying in about 1960-80... the post-modern era... that you know what, every time people tried to sort it out, it turned out a mess......

so watcha gonna do.... gonna do my own thing,
who ya gonna call.... ghost busters.
watcha wanna say...... (well I can't say the F word that has become a theme of post-moderns) followed by the word "you" or "off.

Welcome to our times, where things are what has been handed to us from our forefathers (see above).
Where looking for love in all the wrong places has made some of us look inward more than outward.
Not all. Not most. But some.
Cause some things we're not doing a real good job of fixing.
But I do like AC, modern medicine and MB 550s!!

Blessings and hug your kids.
In fact, skin critters together with 'em.

Mark
Posted By: PAskinner

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by James
"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Doesn't this passage refute the idea that salvation lies in faith alone in Jesus Christ? This verse seems to be saying that you will be judged according to your faith and your deeds (good works). This verse is good support for the Catholic position.

Your interpretation, amspoker, strikes me as entirely plausible.

Jim

Ok, last things first: No, because this judgment isn't about gaining eternal life, it's about rewards. If one has forsaken much for Christ he receives more rewards on the new earth, such are ruling over others.
There is the concept of being first or last in the kingdom in much of scripture.
He who has given much will be rewarded with much.
Posted By: LLtrapper

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 12:49 PM

More pearl being cast to the swine. Such a waste. Nothing will be gained for the Kingdom. Just perversion of truth by a couple apostate minds. LLL
Posted By: Fishdog One

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 01:15 PM

Referring to the verses first mentioned, taken out of context, Jesus answered a question from Peter about wealth and reward, sacrifice and station. If those with him daily for years did not get the picture yet, he exaggerated to try and let them see it is not about this life but a future, and had just told them that impossible for a man was possible for God.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 01:18 PM

OP,
The idea of leaving family, fields, etc, simply means those believers who have given up more than other believers, such as martyrs, etc.. We will all be rewarded, some more than others. But, scripture says that out of gratitude we will all lay our rewards at the feet of Jesus; in other words we all eventually will be on the same level.

James,
The judgment you are referring to isn't about eternal life versus eternal death.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by PAskinner
Originally Posted by James
"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Doesn't this passage refute the idea that salvation lies in faith alone in Jesus Christ? This verse seems to be saying that you will be judged according to your faith and your deeds (good works). This verse is good support for the Catholic position.

Your interpretation, amspoker, strikes me as entirely plausible.

Jim

Ok, last things first: No, because this judgment isn't about gaining eternal life, it's about rewards. If one has forsaken much for Christ he receives more rewards on the new earth, such are ruling over others.
There is the concept of being first or last in the kingdom in much of scripture.
He who has given much will be rewarded with much.


This. I think there is a misconception that all will be equal in new Millennium. Someone that sins much in life, for example James, maybe your remarried couple, will not have the same ranking in heaven as someone like Billy Graham. Those who go above and beyond in this life for Christ will reap more rewards in the next than those who just squeak by with a D average.
Posted By: Gary Benson

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 02:44 PM

I prefer Genesis 3:16 myself.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by James
I think I understand verse 29, but I can't accept my interpretation because it violates my moral upbringing. Promoting wife and child abandonment for the selfish motive of attaining great wealth and immortality? What about the lives and afterlives of the wives and children left behind?


As I wrote in the concurrent theological thread...let the dead bury their dead. I thought I might be called upon to do the very thing you mention when I first became a believer. I was totally prepared to do so. Leave my wife behind. She wasn't a believer at the time and I wasn't going to let any earthly relationship get in the way of following Christ.

The Bible tells us if an unbelieving spouse chooses to stay and remain married, so be it. If they they choose to depart, so be it.

It had nothing to do with selfishness or attaining wealth, it had to do with separation from sin.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by James
I think I understand verse 29, but I can't accept my interpretation because it violates my moral upbringing. Promoting wife and child abandonment for the selfish motive of attaining great wealth and immortality? What about the lives and afterlives of the wives and children left behind?


As I wrote in the concurrent theological thread...let the dead bury their dead. I thought I might be called upon to do the very thing you mention when I first became a believer. I was totally prepared to do so. Leave my wife behind. She wasn't a believer at the time and I wasn't going to let any earthly relationship get in the way of following Christ.

The Bible tells us if an unbelieving spouse chooses to stay and remain married, so be it. If they they choose to depart, so be it.

It had nothing to do with selfishness or attaining wealth, it had to do with separation from sin.



1 Corinthians7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
Posted By: rex123

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 04:06 PM

Why do people have to make things so hard. It says what it says . Can you see why people like Danny have trouble with the faith? You all can't agree on anything. It's not what I think or what you think but what it says do you really think God would make it so hard to understand? Would your father set you up to fail?
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by waggler
OP,
The idea of leaving family, fields, etc, simply means those believers who have given up more than other believers, such as martyrs, etc.. We will all be rewarded, some more than others. But, scripture says that out of gratitude we will all lay our rewards at the feet of Jesus; in other words we all eventually will be on the same level.

James,
The judgment you are referring to isn't about eternal life versus eternal death.


So we will all be rewarded according to our faith and deeds? That's what Catholics believe.

Your second statement is a plausible statement. What is the purpose of the apostles' judging? Is that revealed elsewhere in the Bible.


Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by rex123
Why do people have to make things so hard. It says what it says . Can you see why people like Danny have trouble with the faith? You all can't agree on anything. It's not what I think or what you think but what it says do you really think God would make it so hard to understand? Would your father set you up to fail?


But a straightforward interpretation appears to be inconsistent with passages elsewhere and/or modern beliefs.

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:17 PM

At least I now know the probable basis for the Catholic belief that works matter: it's Revelations 20: 11.

What I can't figure out is why most Protestants apparently ignore this verse.

Jim
Posted By: BandB

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:32 PM

Works matter. Just not as a condition of salvation. In that same passage, if your name is not found in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire. Your works will not keep that from happening, no matter how good you think they are.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by James
At least I now know the probable basis for the Catholic belief that works matter: it's Revelations 20: 11.

What I can't figure out is why most Protestants apparently ignore this verse.

Jim



????

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This verse? Or do you mean 12?
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:35 PM

I meant 12. Thanks for pointing that out.

Jim
Posted By: Pike River

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by James
"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Doesn't this passage refute the idea that salvation lies in faith alone in Jesus Christ? This verse seems to be saying that you will be judged according to your faith and your deeds (good works). This verse is good support for the Catholic position.

Your interpretation, amspoker, strikes me as entirely plausible.

Jim

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 06:37 PM

OK assuming you mean 20:12...

At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened. Those people left are those who have survived tribulation. Note that there are TWO books (v12). One of which is the book of life. That book has the names of all who are believers in Jesus. If your name isn't in that book, you're out. If your name IS in that book, then you go on to the next book, by which you are judged by your works, to determine what rewards you will receive in Heaven.

It's not as complicated as you're making it James.
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 07:31 PM

Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


No, Jim, I mean by "this point (Chapter 20) in Revelation", not right now. Many if not most Bible scholars believe the Rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins. All believers will be raptured to Heaven. Just before or after that, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel. That marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation period is to turn as many of the unbelievers that are left on earth into believers before the end of the world. During the tribulation, there will be 21 judgments sent from God, each worse than the one before. The 7 seal judgments, the 7 Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. During this time, 144,000 Jews and more other people than can be counted will turn to Christ. It's a second chance for those left behind after the rapture. During those 7 years, 3/4 of the earth's population will die... some will die in Christ, and some without. At the end of the 7 years, 1/4 of the population will remain. Those are the people being judged in Rev. 20.

There are some variations of course to what people believe regarding the Rapture and Tribulation (and I think that would be a great thread in and of itself) and I'm no Bible scholar, but I think this is a general idea for you of what happens. I would suggest reading ALL of Revelation, as it's all laid out there plain as day.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by waggler
OP,
The idea of leaving family, fields, etc, simply means those believers who have given up more than other believers, such as martyrs, etc.. We will all be rewarded, some more than others. But, scripture says that out of gratitude we will all lay our rewards at the feet of Jesus; in other words we all eventually will be on the same level.

James,
The judgment you are referring to isn't about eternal life versus eternal death.


So we will all be rewarded according to our faith and deeds? That's what Catholics believe.

Your second statement is a plausible statement. What is the purpose of the apostles' judging? Is that revealed elsewhere in the Bible.


Jim

Yes, all believers will be judge and rewarded for our good deeds, not for our bad deeds, those bad deeds (sin) have been forgiven.
God's system of justice is a lot different than ours.
I'll have to look into the "apostles' judging" issue and get back to you.
Posted By: Mark June

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


Jim,
Studies are covering me up this week and I didn't read these posts and may not all week, but please remember that if you'er looking at v. 28 & 29, that for proper context Peter, at the end of v. 27 is asking a question in which he is "still" asking with a tone of self-righteousness.... What will there be for us? This is huge heading into 28 & 29. Just a quick note.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.


What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


Jim,
Studies are covering me up this week and I didn't read these posts and may not all week, but please remember that if you'er looking at v. 28 & 29, that for proper context Peter, at the end of v. 27 is asking a question in which he is "still" asking with a tone of self-righteousness.... What will there be for us? This is huge heading into 28 & 29. Just a quick note.

Blessings,
Mark


We've moved on to Revelation 20:12
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


No, Jim, I mean by "this point (Chapter 20) in Revelation", not right now. Many if not most Bible scholars believe the Rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins. All believers will be raptured to Heaven. Just before or after that, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel. That marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation period is to turn as many of the unbelievers that are left on earth into believers before the end of the world. During the tribulation, there will be 21 judgments sent from God, each worse than the one before. The 7 seal judgments, the 7 Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. During this time, 144,000 Jews and more other people than can be counted will turn to Christ. It's a second chance for those left behind after the rapture. During those 7 years, 3/4 of the earth's population will die... some will die in Christ, and some without. At the end of the 7 years, 1/4 of the population will remain. Those are the people being judged in Rev. 20.

There are some variations of course to what people believe regarding the Rapture and Tribulation (and I think that would be a great thread in and of itself) and I'm no Bible scholar, but I think this is a general idea for you of what happens. I would suggest reading ALL of Revelation, as it's all laid out there plain as day.


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Okay, maybe not someone taking drugs. Maybe Revelations was written after the author's fever dream or delirium. I've had the most fantastic dreams and "visions" while asleep with a fever.

Jim
Posted By: Jasper69

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:52 PM

In the second chapter of James it states that faith without works is dead. We can't just say I am a believer in Christ and expect a greater reward than someone who has the faith and puts the Gospel to use doing good for his fellow man. I think it is in John chapter 14 where he talks "my Father's house has many mansions ". I interpret that to mean that they are not all the same. Meaning different rewards.

As far as what verse 29 means, he is talking about rewarding those who have given up great things to completely follow him because they have made a great sacrifice and they will be rewarded.
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by James


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Jim


You're still not understanding. No, James, of course the rapture has not occurred yet. I was saying that by the point in time of Revelation 20, it had occurred by THEN.

But even that is debatable. Many people believe the Rapture occurs pre-tribulation, while others think it occurs mid or post tribulation. The Bible doesn't explicitly specify.

But yeah, you'll notice when it happens. Tman will be a lot quieter, lol.
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 09:57 PM

Jasper, thanks for the input on Verse 28.

I agree with your interpretation of 29. But giving up "great things" includes wife and child abandonment. I would never expect God to reward me for doing so, even if He would anyway.

Jim
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by James


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Jim


You're still not understanding. No, James, of course the rapture has not occurred yet. I was saying that by the point in time of Revelation 20, it had occurred by THEN.

But even that is debatable. Many people believe the Rapture occurs pre-tribulation, while others think it occurs mid or post tribulation. The Bible doesn't explicitly specify.

But yeah, you'll notice when it happens. Tman will be a lot quieter, lol.


Maybe I'll be left alone here to talk to myself in an unmoderated forum.

And the hardcore Trump supporters, of course.

Yotetrapper, you previously posted: "At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened."

Jim
Posted By: yotetrapper30

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by James

Yotetrapper, you previously posted: "At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened."

Jim


Yes, and then I've tried to explain, 3 times since then, that I meant that "At this point IN THE TIMELINE OF REVELATION, most believe the rapture has already happened." So, in other words, by the time the stuff going on in Revelation 20 is happening, the rapture would have already happened. I don't know how to explain any better than that, LOL.
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:02 PM

I guess we were talking around each other.

Jim
Posted By: Jasper69

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:15 PM

James, I am not so sure that means they were abandoned. I think it might mean more that he forsake being with them constantly like a normal husband and father. Remember that basically Christ forsook having a wife and children to fulfill his mission on earth. As far as we know. You might then ask, why would his Heavenly Father do that. All will be made right in the end by a loving Heavenly Father and Saviour. There is much our mortal minds do not comprehend. However, as we live closer to our Saviour"s teachings our mind and spirit is expanded and we learn to understand more. Line upon line, precept on precept. We must remember that this life is only the blink of an eye on the timeline of eternity. But it is a very important time that has great effect upon our eternity.
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:28 PM

Thanks, Jasper, for a calm, civil, direct answer to my question.

I have trouble accepting that advice or instruction as the words of a just God.

Jim
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:35 PM

There is nothing all laid out in revelation. 100 people will read it and come away with 100 different interpretations. Just like every good prophecy. Get explicit and prophecy falls apart.

I was taught the trinity, father son and holy ghost, are like water ice and steam. Different manifestations of the same creator
Posted By: Jasper69

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:40 PM

James, one way to find out if you should accept it. Pray and ponder. But it must be done with a pure intent of heart. And it might take awhile. But if you have true desire you will get an answer and be at peace. It just might not be on your time or in your own way.
Posted By: PAskinner

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/14/21 11:57 PM

The majority of believers in Christian history didn't believe in a rapture. ( I'm ducking because I assume somebody's going to throw something at me)
I know it's a very common belief now, but it actually has very little biblical support.

Catholics don't officially believe in the rapture, neither do lutherans and Angelicans, and some Calvinists.
I'm not saying either way, just clarifying that one doesn't have to accept rapture theology to be a Christian.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
There is nothing all laid out in revelation. 100 people will read it and come away with 100 different interpretations. Just like every good prophecy. Get explicit and prophecy falls apart.

I was taught the trinity, father son and holy ghost, are like water ice and steam. Different manifestations of the same creator




10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

13Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;


15For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I [b]should heal them.’


16But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

17for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

[And also keep in mind..]



1My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world
.
Posted By: amspoker

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 12:41 AM

There are over two-hundred references to the old testament in Revelation.

You have to let the Bible interpret the Bible.

I don't have it figured out yet.

Working on it.
Posted By: BuckMink

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 01:30 AM

James,

May I ask why you fear man, but not God himself as your judge?
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 02:10 AM

I think God would more likely be fair, impartial, and just. I've seen human judges make decisions out of their feelings, bias, or dislike of a particular lawyer or party.

Jim
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


No, Jim, I mean by "this point (Chapter 20) in Revelation", not right now. Many if not most Bible scholars believe the Rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins. All believers will be raptured to Heaven. Just before or after that, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel. That marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation period is to turn as many of the unbelievers that are left on earth into believers before the end of the world. During the tribulation, there will be 21 judgments sent from God, each worse than the one before. The 7 seal judgments, the 7 Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. During this time, 144,000 Jews and more other people than can be counted will turn to Christ. It's a second chance for those left behind after the rapture. During those 7 years, 3/4 of the earth's population will die... some will die in Christ, and some without. At the end of the 7 years, 1/4 of the population will remain. Those are the people being judged in Rev. 20.

There are some variations of course to what people believe regarding the Rapture and Tribulation (and I think that would be a great thread in and of itself) and I'm no Bible scholar, but I think this is a general idea for you of what happens. I would suggest reading ALL of Revelation, as it's all laid out there plain as day.

There are two thoughts on the Rapture and tribulation. Some scholars believe the Rapture will be prior to the tribulation. Others believe the opposite, there will be the tribulation, then the Rapture. I happen to believe in the first interpretation which makes more sense. The tribulation is like a second chance for those left behind.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by PAskinner
The majority of believers in Christian history didn't believe in a rapture. ( I'm ducking because I assume somebody's going to throw something at me)
I know it's a very common belief now, but it actually has very little biblical support.

Catholics don't officially believe in the rapture, neither do lutherans and Angelicans, and some Calvinists.
I'm not saying either way, just clarifying that one doesn't have to accept rapture theology to be a Christian.

And yet in the Catholic mass, they say: "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again".
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 06:52 PM

In the Catholic Church I was raised in, we were taught that Christ shall return for a Judgment Day. I never knew the details, and found it impossible to suspend disbelief in Revelations.

Jim
Posted By: Jasper69

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 06:54 PM

The second coming of Christ will usher in the millennium.
Posted By: PAskinner

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/15/21 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by James
In the Catholic Church I was raised in, we were taught that Christ shall return for a Judgment Day. I never knew the details, and found it impossible to suspend disbelief in Revelations.

Jim

It is obviously symbolism.
I read a book that explained that a lot of it happened in the immediate history after John wrote it. The symbols made sense to me when used that way. Often when we use them apply to future events we are just guessing. Which is why you have people thinking that Kissinger or Gorbachev was going to be the Antichrist.
Posted By: James

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/17/21 06:17 AM

Interesting explanation, PA, and the most plausible I've heard, maybe even more plausible than my drug/fever delirium theory.

Jim
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/17/21 10:26 AM

Jehovah witnesses had a date when they first started out, the date came and nothing happened though. A good prophecy is never a simple direct statement. It sounds like hallucination so the believers can just keep waiting. Except for prophecies that have already occurred. Since they are written after the fact there is always detail and not just a description of what sounds like hallucination. A few years ago some Indians in the Dakotas were pretty excited. A white buffalo was born on a ranch. That buffalo wasn't the harbinger of what they are waiting on though either.
Posted By: Posco

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/17/21 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by bowhunter27295
When I stand before GOD I will lay flat on my face in remorse and apology for all I have done wrong.


I don't think so. There is that one verse about being saved "yet so as by fire" that has me wondering.
Posted By: Trapper7

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 - 09/17/21 02:35 PM

[quote=danny clifton] Jehovah witnesses had a date when they first started out, the date came and nothing happened though. A good prophecy is never a simple direct statement. It sounds like hallucination so the believers can just keep waiting. Except for prophecies that have already occurred. Since they are written after the fact there is always detail and not just a description of what sounds like hallucination. A few years ago some Indians in the Dakotas were pretty excited. A white buffalo was born on a ranch. That buffalo wasn't the harbinger of what they are waiting on though either. [/quot
Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Watchtower Society concluded that the 144,000 referred to them. When that number of members of WS had been reached, the end would come; the world would end. When that never happened, they had to come up with a more believable excuse. They have predicted the end of the world several times. The last one was in the 1970s.

I knew a man who was a lifetime member of the WS. When they predicted the end of the world in the 1970s, he sold his business in anticipation of the end. Of course, when it never happened, he left the society.
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