The Tribulation and Rapture

This was mentioned on another thread and I thought it might be interesting to make a specific thread about it. I've read the Bible all my life but am definitely not what you would call a Bible scholar. Honestly, I've never even really studied the Bible much until recently.

I know the end times are one of the most debated things in the Bible. I know some people believe that the Rapture will happen pre-Tribulation, while others believe it will happen mid- or post-Tribulation. I also just now learned that not even all denominations believe in the Rapture.

So what are your thoughts? Will there be a Rapture? When will it happen? Do you believe the 21 judgments listed in Revelation are literal, or symbolic? Basically this thread is for discussion on anything and everything pertaining to the end times.

Believers and non-believers all welcome.

No, I don't believe in the Rapture or Tribulation.

I do believe the human race could become extinct at any time, due to our own stupidity or a large-scale natural disaster, like a huge volcano, an asteroid strike, or a nearby star that goes nova. I suppose we might call it the End Times.

Jim

I think revelation is THE most debated book of the bible

As long as you TRULY BELIEVE in Jesus there is no need to fret. Oh the rapture and trib are coming and will not be pretty. But repent and believe in Jesus and have a wonderful eternity! James, you may want to invest in some sort of HVAC company. Just saying.

I never cared for the expression, "Just saying."

Of course you're just saying it. You aren't using telepathy. lol

Jim

I don't think one will ever have a definitive answer to your questions.

Because there are so many different kinds of religions and interpretations of the bible as well as which one is used.

Something will probably happen to the world and be called something from some bible and it will only be a natural calamity !

Oh I am not fretting. I just find it really interesting and am wanting to learn more about what different people believe about it.

I believe there will be a rapture then the tribulation. For those that are saved and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ we will be raptured out and not be involved in the tribulation. I think we are in the last days for sure. This is my belief and I also respect others who believe differently.

I know people who fret about things like the Rapture, and if they will be ready for it, and things like that. These things lay out in the future.

The thing you need to worry about is the Here-and-Now. You could get smashed by truck the first thing tomorrow morning and that would be "the end of times" for you.

In regards to your post, Clarence Larkin has some really good writings about end time prophecies, it is not light reading and you have to really follow closely but it is good. I believe based on my studies of the scripture that the rapture will occur immediately prior to the tribulation period, this is the first phase of Christ's return but he doesn't set foot on the earth at this time, the saints are called to meet him in the air, then at the end of the tribulation you will have the second phase of Christ's return where he actually sets foot on the earth, and defeats the forces of Satan and the anti-christ and then sets up his earthly kingdom for the millennial reign. At the end of the millennial reign the resurrection of the lost occurs and then the Great White Throne Judgement. It is important to understand the dispensations of the bible to understand how everything fits together, this is where a lot of confusion occurs. Also before studying Revelation, it is important to thoroughly study Daniel and Ezekiel as they set the stage for Revelation.

Obviously this is a greatly condensed post but hopefully it is helpful.

To further clarify (where did the other thread go?) not believing in the rapture doesn't mean one doesn't believe in Jesus' return or the final judgment.

"What is Amillennialism?
Amillennialism is actually misnamed. The ‘a’ at the beginning means ‘no’, indicating the proponents of this position believe there will be no millennial reign. But that is not accurate. A better title would be something like ‘realized millennialism’, indicating that we are currently in the millennium.

Amillennialism is not new. Many throughout the history of the church have held it. And by the time of Augustine, it had become the dominant view of the church. It is still the dominant view of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and many Protestants. And it was the view of the reformers, including Calvin and Luther."

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-amillennialism.html

Rapture-a feeling of intense pleasure and joy.
I'm in.

I don't know, I also think Danny is correct about The Revelation being the most debated. Many just don't get it IMO.

Revelation makes absolute complete sense to me. Folks that can't grasp Revelation don't understand the Old Testament and are tortured with trying to interpret it in regards to Jesus' teachings. They forget however, that Jesus was a Jew and read from the the Torah (Septuagint).

My entire thoughts on the matter can be narrowed down to one statement mentioned in the Bible. "The Just Shall Live by Faith." Chancey

Bahahaha Bahahaha Bahahaha ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Another Christian weighing in?

Jim

Interesting. I believe in parts of that but other parts don't seem to make much sense. I also find it interesting at the beginning of the article is says they do not find Revelation 20 to be symbolic, but then at the end say they DO find the millennium to be symbolic, lol. I guess those that continued to believe this theory had to amend it during the 1100s after the 1000 years was up.

And the other thread is still up.

Good post, thanks for sharing! Most of this seems closest to what I believe. I still have a lot of research to do though. I'll check out the author you mentioned.

Didn't the apostles go through great tribulation when they were martered .and haven't we been in the last times since Jesus defeted death on the cross.

Yes. My pastor just finished up preaching through Revelation last Sunday. It took six months and he still skimmed over it. I agree with him when says things are moving fast. Very fast.

So y'all are saying you think THIS is Tribulation NOW?

My pastor didn't explicitly say that but he seemed to suggest it. I'm not sure but things are moving very fast.

Seems some signs have not yet happened for that to be the case. What about peace in Israel, as mentioned in both Daniel and Ezekiel? I thought that was a prerequisite of the start of the Tribulation?

Barring that though I could see where an argument could be made that we're somewhere around the 3rd Seal Judgment.

People have been saying look here look there for at least a thousand years saying its the prophesized end times.

Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. In the eighties preachers were saying he was the anti christ and his birth mark was the sign.




Including David Wilkerson. The teen challenge guy

Seems like I remember people saying Obama might be or is the anti christ also.

I expect we are just seeing shadows of things yet to come. The tribulation will be 1000 times worse. If in my reading I have the timeline right, I believe the church will be gone before the tribulation. Of course I haven't spent much time in study of end time prophecy.

One nice thing about the End Times discussion is that most often, unless someone brings a core doctrine into play, it doesn't push up against anything resembling false teachings, like Paul chastised the Galatians and the Corinthians over.

This is considered just good Bible study regarding what God intends to do and when God intends to do it to usher in the New Heaven and Earth.
I figure if God can gather the ashes of my grandpa (a believer), which were scattered as I recall into a swift moving river, and resurrect and embody them upon this New Earth to come, well then it outta be a sight to behold!

I just hope I'm not still bottling lure and I look and....... Donna is raptured.
That'd be bad.

Blessings,
Mark

But if I understand right, and that were to happen, you'd still have a second chance, no?

Pinch hitter. Yes, but it would require martyrdom.

You don't think any of the 1/4 of the population who make it through the Tribulation period will be Christians?

Luke 17: 22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

I agree with this. Understanding the Hebrew Bible and how prophetic literature works and what its intentions are would shed some light on The Revelation. In my attempts to do this (and I understand that my knowledge is limited), I have become convinced that much of the debate about prophecy in general is due to a misappropriation of its intended purpose. I am not convinced that The Revelation was written to tell you the secret details of future events. I think that biblical prophecy is mostly intended to be truth-telling rather than fortune-telling. The archetypal prophet in the Bible is Moses, and he doesn't act like Nostradamus. What does that tell us about the role of prophets and prophecies? Plenty of the literary prophets in the Bible also use "end times" language to describe wars/plagues/famines etc. I think, for the most part, these prophetic books are using archetypal, symbolic, cosmic language to describe the meaning of current events and to look forward with hope, knowing that God will deal with injustice in the world and restore His Kingdom. For the old testament authors the subject matter was the oppression of the Israelites by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and others. For John and the emerging church, the context is persecution of Christians by Rome, and his revelation addresses that persecution, describes what Jesus's victory looks like over that, and looks forward to the day when God will deal with the injustice of the entire world and reestablish His Kingdom. I don't think it's about predicting specific events or time tables. I think we should look at it and then look at the world around us to see who the Romes and Babylons of our time are and understand that Jesus is victorious over them and try to understand our role in that story.

With that in mind, I also think James may be fairly close to the mark here:



When there was a drought, a famine, and a plague of locusts in Israel, Joel used "end times" language to talk about it. When the King of Israel reneged on a treaty with the King of Babylon and Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, the prophets don't focus on bad politics. They use apocalyptic, symbolic language to attempt to describe the cosmic/religious meaning of the events. The same with John's Revelation. If we were prophetic poets, we might try to describe the current situation in Afghanistan (or even in America) with similar language. We'd decry the terrible injustices that we see, we'd look forward to when and how God will rescue the oppressed and serve justice where it is needed, and we'd hope for the day when the whole world will be rescued and freed from all injustice in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The book of The Revelation was written in apocalyptic form because of persecution the church was going through. It seems everyone wants to make the book of The Revelation be all about future prophecy. Most of what was written there has already happened. Because it is symbolic for the most part it's easy to try to make it say something that it is not. It is in harmony with the other books of the New Testament.

With that being said, I believe we are in the tribulation now. The word "rapture" isn't even in the Bible. There is a reason for that. When Christ returns that is it. There is only one second coming. He has already been here one time. The next time is for the church. Then will be the judgement. There can't be anymore second comings. He will not set up kingdom on this earth. The dead in Christ will rise first, then all that remains will meet Him in the air. That is the end of this earth.

The Battle of Armageddon is also not directly mentioned in the Bible. The battle between good and evil is though. And it has already been fought and God won. He then cast Lucifer into the hot place. Satan has been loosed for a season just like was prophesied in the Bible.

There are VERY strong biblical arguments from theologians over a very long time as to the End Times.
Are they coming?
Are we in them?

Regardless of anyone's argument, if the Seed of the Woman in Genesis 3:15 isn't the One who emerges from your theology, you missed it and you're following false teachers.
As Peter warns new believers will/would happen in his 2nd epistle to them.

Blessings,
Mark

When do you think the tribulation started? You should be able to pick the exact date of Christs return if you know that , seeing it is a 7 year perod. As far as the rapture not being in the Bible, that is not entirely correct. It is in the latin text I believe. It means to be 'caught up". This found in 1 thess 4:17. So the concept is there.

Armageddon is directly mentioned in the Bible but only once. Rev. 16:16.

The word "rapture" is not in the Bible. But to be caught up is exactly right. And we will meet Christ in the air at the second coming.

Armageddon is directly mentioned in Rev. 16:16, you are correct. But there is no battle mentioned there.

The cool thing is it doesn’t matter what you “believe” it’s all going to play out the way God wants it to.

Neil Young wrote a song about it-"after the gold rush".

There have been quite a few saying this one, or that one was the antichrist.
The more notable one in my time was probably Hitler. Many people and some Christians were positive he was the antichrist.