looks like not just catholic priests and mormons

https://www.yahoo.com/news/probe-southern-baptist-sex-abuse-125732567.html

Don't forget truck drivers....
https://www.latintimes.com/predator...s-sex-trips-luring-victims-flyers-476448

believe me i never will. i could tell you some heartbreaking stories if this wasn't being read by kids. used to be real common to see runaway 12-14 year olds hanging around truckstops looking for a "ride"


looks like all the finger pointing by protestant religions may need to be refocused however

lol

That's gonna leave a mark.

There are some very deep wounds in some people. And it seems they have not healed from whatever happened in their past.

Someone dumped their junk on them.
Now they want to dump that same junk on us.
On an early Monday to start a nice week no less.
Same old sin story.
No thanks.


Blessings,
Mark

Need to be dealt with, I don't care who they are associated with

A pedophile is a pedophile no matter what suit they wear. If one was found in the church I attend it would be so difficult to turn the other cheek and I would likely have to be asking forgiveness for not doing so.

Cops have really cracked down in the last 10 years or so. Used to be common to see these young kids working a parking lot that wasn't "claimed" by whoever was controlling the drug/ sex trade in the notorious spots of Ontario CA, East St Louis, Tucson etc. I dont want to know what makes a 12 y/o choose sex work for a truckdriver/pimp over living at home. Not all runaways made it to LA or San Fran to get recruited.

doesn't change the fact that clergy seem to be prone to this. wonder why that is? perhaps denial that they have the birth defect now called "gay"?

It's because our civil culture has turned the other cheek, so now we as church elders require safety training for mass shooters (Sutherland Springs was down the road 5 miles from our church)... we require all staff to be trained how to identify predators (sexual predators in our county is at an all time high) and on and on.

All the separation of the church from the state have received your reward. Finally! Americans can go about life safe and sound with no church folks making 'em do things they don't wanna do.
(It's separation of the state from the church by the way but liberal judges turned it upside down as they usually do all things)

Church is reacting to society.... simple as that.
Shooters and sexual predators and more.
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
Won't you be.... my neighbor.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark, are you suggesting that preying on children is a NEW thing rather than something we are now shining light on and trying to stop? As usual your post is vague and full of allegory

A different topic here. When I posted the other day that clergy running government terrified me you said clergy was not interested in doing that????????????????

"Won't you be.... my neighbor." We are all each others neighbor.......jk

My post isn't vague. You're just too close to the flame to see that it's hot.
Here, on a Monday, I'll get to the punch line.

Why do you repeatedly post about what you despise?
The Lord Jesus Christ and his followers.

You're way to giddy about rock chucking.
Hope that wasn't too vague.

Blessings,
Mark

So you want to deflect? I get that.

That article is new. Just put out there today. Or I would have posted it before. Your right though. I do despise pedophiles.

Back now to the original post. It seems preying on children is not primarily the realm of Catholicism or Mormons.

I can't help but wonder if it is their way of dealing with desires they don't want to have. Desires they tell and have been told are a choice. To ashamed of them to ever put a voice to them. So instead they hurt others.

You're the definition of short deflective answers on these topics.
Throw a rock.
Run.
Taunt.
Run.
Thanks for helping the church.

It's been a long weekend dealing with human hardship so thanks for the chucking from the easy seats.
As always.
You wanna suit up and get it the game rather than chucking?
Our world could sure use helping hands. We're short. Real short.
We've got enough Monday morning quarterbacks who say they are taking the high road, while they tell others they are on the low road.
Congratulations danny for being perfecto.

Blessings,
Mark

Whatever you say is your truth.

sounds like your one wanting to cover for them

I say shine light on this horror. No matter what you think is causing it. People need to be aware to protect their children. These predators are good at hiding in plain sight

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man. That's Paul writing to believers. We all have the propensity to sin, just different flavors, but just because you're not tempted in that particular way doesn't mean you couldn't be.

Don't worry Danny, as mankind thoroughly washes their hands of God, redefining good and evil, this will be legalized and normalized. (see link below)

Hopefully, Christ will intercede before then.

While you're on your crusade, shining light on evil in the world don't forget to expose Hollywood and the politicians

I think you will find them to be pushing the agenda of perversion, and acting out said perversions far more than the religious types

But that doesn't fit your narrative does it?

Advocate.com: Shang-Chi's Simu Liu: Pedophilia Is 'No Different Than Being Gay'.
https://www.advocate.com/people/2021/9/17/shang-chis-simu-liu-pedophilia-no-different-being-gay

This is the lead actor in Marvel's latest movie "teaching" you right from wrong..

Some individual churches focus on the pastor too much and give him too much power, IMO. This kind of structure creates a place for power hunger pastors to take advantage of people. When you have a church where the focus is on God and no one person is taking all the credit for God's work, it fosters humility among the leadership. All men (and women) are capable of falling into these kinds of sins. I think part of the solution is to get back to the basics and quit putting certain leaders on the pedestal as if they were little gods. That's my 2 cents, and worth every penny what you paid for it..

Troll

Why weren’t you guy’s circling the wagons when it was priests polygamists? I see now why it’s covered up so easy

Evil and suffering are so pervasive, the stats hardly make us blink.
Christians blink but we don't hold redemption in our hands.
Atheists claim to be tolerant but you're showing us the example of the new tolerant among us who are the most intolerant (see my other post).

I'm not sure why you posted this danny other than to call out evil in the world.
We believers already know about good and evil.

So, rather than chucking, suit up and help.
Thousands will die today in our land.
Most will trigger no headlines for you to post about.
Life is tragic and will find us all.

In it, people tend to blame God or embrace God.
C.S. Lewis said it well; "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to our conscience, but shouts in our pain."
Believers understand this well.
You seem to vehemently resent others not joining you and yours.
It's a dead end.

Blessings,
Mark

It is in all walks of lives but some jobs/positions have made it easier to hide the behaviors. The sad part is the way groups like, churches, scouts etc. have covered it up by moving people around, buying the victims off etc.

People are people. Doesn't matter if they are baptists, catholics or atheists, This problem is pervasive in all walks of life.

Danny of you are expecting people to be perfect, no matter what their place in life, you are going to be disappointed.

That's not a church... as in the ordained ecclesia of God.
That's people.

Very true statement.

It's always interesting to me to see how these detractors are constantly searching for the negative. They ignore the good so many Christian organizations do and only focus on anything that casts negative light on Christians.
There will always be imposters masquerading as Christians. To understand Christianity, one only needs to look at what Jesus taught and expected of his followers.

Why was it okay to talk about fundamentalist mormans and catholics? Seems odd your attacking me for posting the news link and making excuses for pedophiles

Lots of foster kids also got/get abused in a lot of ways.Sexual,physical,etc.And by otherwise upstanding families in communities.99% i bet never found out about.
What do you think the ancient story of cinderella was all about.

Yep welfare does the duck and cover dance too.

the sons of Voltaire live on.

If you think God made this world for human benefit then horrendous suffering and evil shake your understanding of life.

This post was one of a long line in the same vein by those who can't get their philosophy around the truth that "they" hold dear, so they find fault in any view but there own.
Obvious where the attacks are aimed. The Truth.

Voltaire lives in the minds of many.

Belssings,
Mark

Child molesting? That prince was a lot older. And the family was dykes.

Cinderella was a democrat-didnt like to work-she deserved the beatings.

I think it has more to do with control and authority. Religion to a certain extent is about control and attracts those that like to control others. This doesn't stop at religion or them but extends to the feeling of power when they control people sexually also.

I say this as a religious/spiritual person but over the years I have noticed a theme.

I agree. This has been going on for millennia, just look at Roman and Corinthian culture of 2000 years ago.

Nothing is new, us calling out this perversion wherever it occurs is a good thing. It doesn't matter whether it's civil authorities or religious authorities outing these characters, it is the right thing to do.

I also agree with your "gay" characterization. If a person is born a sociopath, a kleptomaniac or with a sexual mental defect, those issues do not excuse bad behavior. That may sound harsh and "unfair" but that is the way it is.

Danny -

I am still praying for you and will continue to.

That's not the way I remember it. She was a Republican and did all the work and the rest of the family who she supported could never get enough, so they tried to marry money.

Cinderella was made to work, which ain't acceptable in today's society and is child abuse.

Well known atheist Susan Jocoby often writes that an atheist is free from the problem of evil that religious people must face. She doesn't worry about how a god could allow such things because there is no god. She says this atheistic stance "frees up" atheists to focus on real issues such as "injustice to African-Americans, women's rights, prison reform, and elimination of cruelty to animals."

Wonderful wisdom.
We are a people an inch deep in wisdom who often embraces those who would harm us.
Not this trapper.
Let me off the stupid bus please.

Blessings,
Mark

You could be right,but I thought she was adopted into the hobnobbing rich republican family.

Prison reform, aye? There are lots of folks doing without food, shelter, free medical and dental that prison inmates are privileged to get. "Entitled", if you will. Prisoner privilege even.

You can get off that bus any time you choose too Mark

danny,

Just had a middle class family who has never been to church ask that we baptize their new born baby born blind and with major neurological issues.
Life is bigger, much bigger, than your worldview sir.

Blessings,
Mark

Circle the wagons. They are talking about protestants now not those evil statue worshipping papists

No she was in a modern 21st century family with stepsisters and a step mom. They were trend setters. Step mom may have murdered her dad? I always wondered what happened to him?

Forced to work to death.

Probably killed himself , married to that woman, and having to look at those ugly step daughters.

However, I'm pretty sure that is how Rumpelstiltskin died.

You can't argue about evil if you say God is unnecessary danny.
Without theism, evil and morality is subjective and in your (subjective) worldview of atheism every person's view must be respected.
Hitler was just doing what Hitler's do. Same with sexual predators.
Who are you to call them out?

As the secularist, your burden is to bring proof of your argument.

Christians affirm the God (who you call myth) who will bring Judgement (which you say is unfair) on the evil (which you agree exists?)
You're all over the board which is a subjective liberal view.


Blessings,
Mark

I was thinking quite the opposite. She was a republican forced to work because her democrat stepsisters didn't want to.

Mark you can get some really goofy ideas at times

danny,
I'll buy you a brew in Kansas. You'll figure it out.
You need to dig deeper than an inch on these when you ask the Q and we answer.

I'm inviting your philosophy to shine, shine, shine upon us but you're only questioning and not doing much of the back and forth part.

Read my last post again and try and articulate why it is you worry about evil?
Evil is subjective to atheists.
Not to orthodox Christians.
We know evil is the enemy of God's good creation but since evil is so deeply rooted in the human heart, if God were to wipe it out and destroy it "everywhere" He would have to destroy us too.
There is still time before the Trumpet and the story has been revealed.

Blessings,
Mark

Roughly 100,000 cases of rape a year and Danny wants to warn us over one headline.

Thanks for the heads up

Of what religion are the other 99%?

Well, I can tell you, they don't fear the God of the Bible

You're a funny guy

You believe you only have one fleeting life here

And you spend a significant portion of it debating with those who believe in an eternal one?

wisdom is known by her deeds

When the father tells the child to do something because he loves the child....
and the child says "sure father, I'll do it as soon as you tell my why I should."
The father says, "If you do it because I explain it well enough that it makes sense to you....
that's called agreement. I'm your father and you are the child so obey and do what I say please. I'm 38 and you're 8. I know a lot more than you do."

Nailed it.

Evil is not subjective to atheists. Many believe in humanism, the faith that humanity defines evil. Murder is wrong to atheists too. So much so that our non-theistic legal system punishes the crime.

It's odd you should claim in one thread that atheists have a religion too, then claim here that they get no guidance from anyone but themselves. Which is it? Do they have religious principles or don't they?


Jim

If humanity defines evil, then wouldn't that make it subjective?

Humanists get guidance from humans (themselves) so its not really contradictory. I don't know if I would call it a religion or more so a belief system.

Even God dignifies his creation by explaining things to us. He doesn't want robots. Look how he reasoned with Lot.

Don’t let people destroy your view of the church. The building or denomination or cult is not the true church. The true church are the believers that christ is coming back for.

There will always be evil people. Don’t let them kill your vision of God.

Are we talking about the same person? I always knew her as Drindacilla and her seven suggly usters.

Yep.

Thats all to philosophical I guess for me. I do know that adults having sex with children injures the child permanently. That harm is well documented. You dont need philosophy or religion to see and understand that. What those preachers did was wrong. I am really surprised there is no outrage. I honestly thought brand of religion would not matter to most of you when children were being harmed. Especially by people put in their lives in a position of trust.

I agree whole heartily with you. I would be even mote outraged if it was a member within my own community. Call the cops amd CPS immediately. Clergy have no business getting involved in criminal allegations.

Second the yep! If you don’t get your morals from God then anything goes. Some say they get them from their heart! Pretty sure Hitlers heart was leading him. Ask the Jews how that turned out! It’s a anything goes deal if it comes from human emotions.

I don't know that I've seen anybody "circling the wagons" or trying to protect child molesters. The problem you have when you present something like this, is that you are specifically doing it to attack Christians. Period. You know that this is a small sample of people, who are arguably not even Christian, because they specifically go against the teachings of the Bible. You're not bringing this up to try and help the victims, you are just trying to justify your hatred of God and disdain for believers. Those people are obviously not Christians, no matter what they claim.

Why in the world would you think anyone isn't outraged? Of course we're outraged. Outraged, sickened and saddened. To me it makes no difference if the evil being that did that is Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist, or Buddhist or whatever. He should be executed, or at the very least castrated and locked up for life. What REALLY outrages me is that people doing this kind of evil are locked up for a few years and then released again to do it to someone else.

I think all religions have people in them, from the top on down, that are NOT truly believers. There is no way a person could truly believe in God and do something so heinous. A person like that believes in only one thing... their self! There's not a person on earth or being in Heaven those people care about, only their own twisted pleasure.

And the Spanish Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials? How about the 100 years war or the IRA? Muslims worship the god of Abraham..... Have very similar guidance as Christians outside of dogma.

I agree with this..... But there is a problem with religious organizations that claim to be Christians.

Some here, including some Christians, are quite willing to judge Muslims by the actions of a few.

Why would anyone be surprised if Christians are also judged by the actions of a few members?

Jim

Except when God works in mysterious ways.

Jim

Pike didn’t say we were perfect. Sure there’s been bad times for the church. We live in the greatest country on earth a Contry that’s done 1000 fold more good than evil. Same as the church. You can’t cherry pick bad times and single them out to degrade them. Both are run by humans (sinners) and bad things happen but the good by far outweighs the bad.

The difference is we are not taking a few Muslims, who broke the rules of their religion, and blaming the whole religion for it. We are judging the WHOLE religion for what it teaches, which is to kill anyone who does not believe the same as they do. Now, there may be some liberal Muslims who don't believe what the Koran says, just as their are liberal Christians who don't believe what the New Testament says. But by and large the whole of Islam is contemptible, which is why we judge it.

Here's what Jesus thinks of people who hurt children.

Matthew18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

... there may or may not be an almighty I guess ( regardless of which flavor) .. but if it’s all powerful and all knowing... it allows horrible things to happen and we say it’s his will and there’s a plan ... the plan is always fairly rough from what I’ve seen

... click the play button on ol Ray Wylie...I figure no one really knows

"There are certainly verses in the Qurʾān that permit violence, but they are often cherry picked without providing the above context. The logical conclusion one arrives at when reading these verses is that Islam teaches and encourages Muslims to love all people, including those of different faiths. However, it forbids Muslims from being “sell outs” by allying themselves with xenophobes who fight against Muslims and ban them from their homes simply based on their religion. In other words, the Qurʾān does not teach Muslims to fight non-Muslims, but to fight religious intolerance.

"The Qurʾān notes that if people do not stand up to religious intolerance it will lead to the destruction of all places of worship. There are those who have been evicted from their homes without right, only because they say, “Our Lord is Allah .” And were it not that Allah driven back people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might (Qurʾān 22:40)."

https://www.whyislam.org/faqs/does-islam-teach-hatred-and-violence/

The Old Testament of the Bible contains exhortations to violence, to slay every man, woman, and child among the unbelievers. Yet, most Christians believe those OT passages are no longer relevant.

Jim

James look at the actions of both then and now and get back with me.

That's because we're Christians, James, not Jews. You say you've read the Bible, then you should well know that Jesus' whole ministry was filled with examples of him showing that the old laws no longer applied. He gave his two commandments, with the advice that if you followed them, you would automatically follow the rest. Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Jesus would not stone the adulteress, despite Old Testament laws calling for it. Jesus later told Peter that no meat was unclean. There are dozens of examples in the New Testament of Jesus throwing out the Old Testament laws.

... you’re going hard in here tonight Yote! ... hit that play button on ol Ray Wylie ... it’s the closing time song on life... Gary Stewart’s is kids play compared to that one lol

The humanist and atheist leaders of Russia, Germany and China have murdered and starved 60 million (estimated low side) or so in just the past 120 or so years. I'm not much of a scholar such as yourself James but it doesn't take much of a study to see what happened in Russia and Germany when humanism took hold in the higher levels of the educated. I've seen a shift from Christianity to humanism in this country in my lifetime and the fruit isn't completely ripe yet but from the early samples coming from the more liberal areas it isn't looking too sweet.

A good humanist loves the ideology while ignoring the outcome

Thanks for the song

I heard a very interesting interview a several years ago on NPR. Yes, I do listen to NPR when it's the only thing available.

The interviewee was some sort of a Muslim intellectual. I have never heard anything like it before; he was very open and unapologetic about his beliefs.
He said that Islam is not a religious belief system, but it is a political ideology cloaked in religiosity in order to appeal to the masses who demand a religious basis for their motivation.
He laid out the history and tenants of Islam very clearly that supported what he was saying. I have never forgot this interview.

Definition of the word Islam: Submit.

The Stoics from before the time of Christ, argued at great length with the pagan Greeks and their myriads of gods... that god does not exist.
They (the Stoics) could be like a god once they master their emotions, urges, and thoughts.
Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle argued Stoics claim the "impossible."

Stoics were the forefathers of modern day atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindu and Sikhism, Mormons..... and humanists
All one has to do to be a god or a tree or to be good or anything else "me" wants is...... master your emotions, urges, and thoughts.
A million self-help books help us to "change" but how does the goal to be a god or a tree or a better person really change us? In these categories, it helps only "me." Selfishness.

The Stoics seek what Christians consider sinful fruit.
And we get a glimpse of how Christianity stands far apart from other religions. It always has.
Christianity's two greatest commands given by God - not a god, but God - were; You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind and love others as yourself.
The theme >>>>> don't work on changing "me" for "me," but rather be changed by God primarily for others.
Plato claimed it was impossible to change a heart and mind.
Believers would agree and go further to admit we need spiritual intervention.

James, would you have the God of the Bible end all evil that exists in the world today? As in...right this second?

Blessings,
Mark

Even liberal, left-leaning Bill Maher once commented that the difference between Christians and Muslims was that Christians don't kill you if you don't become a Christian.

Muhammad killed many non-Muslims that would not convert to Islam. An example is the city of Yathrib inhabited by Jews. He killed every man, woman, and child. The city was renamed Medina. He taught his followers such and is the reason to this day many Muslims still follow his teachings. Many Christians were slaughtered by Islamic extremists in the last couple of years. They were told to convert to Islam or die.

Jesus' teachings were the total opposite of those of Muhammad. What Christians today are killing people for not converting to Christianity?

This is a true statement, but so also is the statement below true. And applicable when it comes to James and some others on this forum. Most people are not interested in in even seeking truth, they are just interested in padding their own agenda and picking out nuggets of things that they can cling to in order to not have to look the truth head on.

When CAIR reached prominence in America, the leader in charge of CAIR openly said, the goal of Islam is to convert the world by whatever means necessary. That Islam is never tolerable of any other religion.

Saw an on the street interview with a number of Muslims who had become American citizens. The question they were asked was which they preferred Sharia Law or the US Constitution? Almost 80% said they preferred Sharia Law. I kind of agree with Sharia Law. Like the part where if you're caught stealing, they cut off one of your hands. The law is a strong proponent of the death penalty. Women caught in adultery can be subject to stoning. They don't tolerate gays and in many cases, kill them. A woman can't divorce her husband; it's nearly impossible. But, just the opposite holds true for a husband. Women have almost no rights under Sharia Law.

I would beg to differ and there are untold thousands of pagans, protestants, catholics, Muslims, and indigenous peoples bones that have been reduced to dust and forgotten in time that would agree with me I believe. Christians and catholics have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with killing you for not conforming to thier faith down throughout history. And before someone jumps in and squeals "those aren't real Christians" I'll argue that those might not be "real Muslims" killing people for thier faith either but they are playing the part. I have to side with Danny on this subject. Nobody had much trouble coming down on catholic priests hard for being disgusting child molesters in need of a long drop and a short stop but when the Baptists become involved everyone gets thier undergarments in a bunch. I worked in a town for 12 years that was exclusively owned, operated, and populated by 1 huge Baptist church. In that town I met some of the nicest people I've ever met and are still friends with some to this day, but I also met some of the most fake, greedy, selfish, back stabbing , crooked, and downright evil people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. I would not put child molestation past half of the men who went to that particular church. Regardless of whether you are a Baptist or not we all have to agree that people who hurt children should be killed.

Christians have no problem killing you for not converting to Christianity? Really? And you know that Jesus taught this like Muhammad did?

Give me some examples of modern day Christians that have been killing people for not converting to Christianity. I can give you examples of Muslims killing Christians. Lot of that going on the past couple years. Ever hear of ISIS for one, or how about the Taliban? Al Qaeda? But, they're not really Muslims???? Tell them that.

I said they "might not be real Muslims" according to other Muslims trying to defend thier religion in the same way the Christians on this forum are so quick to yell "those aren't real Christians" when you start talking about witch hunts, crusades and the conversion or destruction of indigenous peoples in the name Christianity. If a woman wears pounds of makeup and fishnet stockings, with revealing attire it doesn't make her a woman of the night but she's sure as heck wearing the uniform. I don't give a spit about what an apocalypse preaching Jewish cult leader taught his sheep 2000 years ago, but I do care when people who claim to be following his teachings hurt children or persecute, ridicule, demean, bankrupt, kill or otherwise harm people who do not believe the same as them.

That makes no sense. If they were following his teachings, they would not be allowed to hurt children, so obviously they are NOT following his teachings....

Like I said above it matters not whether they are "following" his teachings or not, obviously his teachings are open to individual interpretation as evidenced by all the different denominations that claim to be the "right one" but really just proves that no two people can read the same book and agree 100% on what it said. . What matters is they are playing the part and using it for a way to hide thier evil deeds and in a lot of cases using it to thier advantage to get them closer to children without someone suspecting foul play. And also thank you for proving my point that someone was going to yell "but they're not real Christians". Happened faster than I even expected.

I gave you present day examples of Muslims killing Christians for not converting to Islam. Still waiting for the same examples from you who are claiming Christians are killing non-Christians for not converting to Christianity.

Danny gave you examples of "Christians" molesting children and all anybody can say is "well those aren't real Christians", what makes you think it would be any different if you had evidence that shows Christians killing non-Christians? You would still deny that they were "real Christians". Do your own digging see what you find.

U made the claim but tell someone else to go find the examples. Perfect

Actually, it was pointed out that evil is everywhere, common to mankind. But some, especially MSM, and the left especially enjoy it when they stumble across a religious/conservative hypocrite.

And those that have an axe to grind...

(And guess what, the Bible is full of warnings of 'wolves in sheep's clothing')

The harlot in revelation is a false religion, that will persecute true followers of Christ.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves

Christian Knight’s of the Ku Klux Klan

Oh now Danny you know that anybody in a white robe and pointy hat that is hurting non-Christians isn't a "real Christian clans men", they are just wearing the uniform! 😉

They weren't killing them because they wouldn't convert.

A guy grabs a rifle, puts on his camo, walks into a zoo, and shoots a lion. When arrested, he's says he was just hunting lions. The local news says a hunter killed a lion at the zoo. It must be true. He' says he's a hunter. He's dressed like a hunter. He must be a true hunter.

That's the logic. I will concede that a Christian could murder, molest, etc. After all we're all sinners. That would be someone far from the faith. To imply that is what the tenants of Christianity are is asinine. It would be like saying all trappers are cruel, even though some may be.

Ku Kluxers hate and have killed "Christ killing Jews" for not converting. They have done some horrendous things to those papist idolaters that pray to saints and pay their priests to forgive them of sin also.

The "Tenants of Christianity" are so diverse it would take hours to type them all. how many different denominations/interpretations are there?

Then asinine you are.

Average Boy Scout claim is now $3500.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. - Genesis 3:1-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:1-13&version=AKJV


Excuses, excuses

Always blaming others even God himself.

Keep hiding and blaming the time will come when every knee shall bow and the time for excuses will be over for all eternity.

I wonder what will happen to all that boyscout property? I would hate to guess how many millions of dollars in just CO and NM. Its a real shame too. I thoroughly enjoyed scouts when i was a kid. I fortunately did not see or even hear of any pedophiles.

Wait, are you saying all scout leaders aren't bad because some scout leaders do bad things?

Warrior I thought it was established that the old testament was no longer relevant? Because if it still is we had all better start gathering rocks. We got some serious stoning/executions to get rolling. We can worry about inconsistency later

Things seem a little tense here on pediphile Island. Probably a good time for musical break. Enjoy the music video. Savell's favorite,

Less than 2% of the world's population self describes as atheistic or agnostic and that number is shrinking. It grew to that number, mostly in the West (us) around the late 1800's, bumped up after the world wars (how could an omnipotent God allow evil) and now the last decades is shrinking.

It is because the atheist argument bucket holds no real water. The human heart seeks answers to "why am I here?".....the question now identified as the question of the 21st century by anthropologists.

If you're asking Christians about punishing evil as an atheist you're ignorant. Simple and plain as that.
The God of Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became flesh and dwelt among humans is the God of Judgment you seek, but that you atheists ridicule.
You ask about justice? Where does your "goodness" come from? You? Others? You holler for justice but yell "don't judge" in the same breath.

There was no moral law before YHWH declared the first governing Law to the Israelites which has moved through 4,000 years to us today.
Good and Evil?
The human world governance has always been laws of pedigree and shame. Who you are is who you were born to and what you could do was related to how well you did in life.
A rich pagan in ancient times could kill or hurt anyone he chose if they were poorer than him >>>> a justice of shame. Rome was the epitome of that system.

So, let us educate the atheists who are ignorant.
The Christians affirm it, study it (morality), and attempt to live by it because of our love of God,
But recognize we are fallen humans who are all not perfect.
There would be no moral laws if not for the God of the Bible.

If y'all are looking for more answers to deep questions, bring better buckets.
But some of you aren't really asking, are you?
You chuckle as you type an accusing question, playing that age old game called self-righteous, so you feel more secure with your lives that could go poof at any time.
The atheists say the game ends when you die and science researchers claim that those with no hope oftentimes despise others with hope.
That'd be envy.

Atheists say you rot when you die and all is remembered no more.
Christians profess to the faith with the God who has told us He will come again,
And who will resurrect the dead and separate the good from evil.
That's real Justice and we await it.
Until then we all do the best we can with what God gives us.


Blessings,
Mark

My favorite press story about a priest!!

You call that Christians killing non-Christians? Quite different from Muslims killing Christians who refused to convert to Islam. A pretty weak comparison.

And yes, those aren't real Christians doing these despicable acts. Going to church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian anymore than being in your garage makes you a car. The bible says you will know them by their works. A real Christian doesn't use profanity, pornography, etc. Do you think a person who molests children has never been involved in some sort of pornography, they just all of a sudden decided to molest a child? As I said, there are people out there who on the outside look like a Christian, but on the inside there is a hidden dark side. They are referred to as 'wolves in sheep's clothing".

The same holds true for Muslims. There are some Muslims who are decent, hard working people. I have known a Muslim man who has owned a store for about 20 years in my area. We have been friends for a long time. But, there are some who have a hidden dark side. Even he will tell you that. He avoids them; actually admits he fears them.

If I posted a headline about a trapper that practiced unethical trapping methods and got caught would it be your favorite press story about trappers? I kind of doubt it but people love broad brush strokes when it fits their narrative. Seems some on here try to discredit Christianity by the acts of immoral individuals but that principle seems wrong when something is applied to what they believe in such as trapping.

Im still waiting for somebody to say why stories about protestant child molesters are an attack on christianity but a story on catholic pedophiles is just journalism and a warning to parents

It's not the story. It's you. The story was posted by you as an attack against Christianity and God. You and everyone one else on here knows that the subject of the story is an abomination to God and man. The self professed denomination of the perpetrator is irrelevant. You're purpose was to smear the beliefs of anyone who claims the name of Christ. Nothing more.

Well Danny I think they are accusing us of lumping all protestant ministers in the category of "child molesters" and that hurts thier feelings but not enough to keep them from lumping all catholic priests into that same category. In reality more protestant ministers are guilty of indoctrination, coercion, blackmail and embezzlement than are guilty of child molesting but the child stuff is just now getting some light shined on it the other stuff has been accepted for years. But of course like we've already heard over and over, "those aren't real Christians" they are just playing the part. I'm kind of curious if all the tens of thousands of soldiers who went on the crusades and slaughtered men, women and children in the name of thier God were "not real Christians" and ended up in the hot place one and all or was it the men who indoctrinated them into believing they were doing right that took the brunt of it?

Danny your right, It's hypocritical..... Mormons and multiple child brides, not cool, Catholic Priests and choir boys, not cool....But a Baptist rapist, or Church of Christ child abuser, "well then" , that's different.

Having sat unregenerated in churches for several years before the Lord took hold of me has made me skeptical of many a professing 'Christian'. Born again believers are a rare breed.

Who said all Catholic priests are molesters?

A Baptist rapist is still a rapist. Church of Chist molester is still a molester. They are, however, NOT following the tenets of their religion when they do commit these despicable sins.

It's about judging others, people judge more harshly on the ones they love to hate, then make excuses if they happen to belong to the same flock.....Never fails.

I will completely agree with that.

I thought the Bible said it wasn't our place to judge? Or has it been thumped so hard that that part fell out?

I haven't read every post but I haven't seen a post yet defending the pedo. Maybe that post is in brail and my phone doesn't pick it up.

Jesus tells us to judge. I guess you didn't read that part.

B and B your kinda right. I DID want to show that all denominations have some folks that are only fit to luve in prison pretend to be guiding them

Both a terrible acts that deserve notice and punishment. It is the presumed movitve of the post based off your believe towards Christianity that leads me to believe it was posted as a shot against Christianity. If I'm wrong I apologize if I've offended u. My personal views towards child molesters are about the same no matter ones religion beliefs.

Could u show one post that backs up your claim that someone said all catholic priest are child molesters or is up too us to prove ur talk again?

May I expand that and say all groups of people?

I have noticed often that when posting people will make up stuff about the poster when they dont like what is being said.


It is still a truth that disparaging priests when that was news was just fine. People on tman were only upset when it suggested that protestant clergy had the same problems and cover ups

Although priests make up only about 10% of North American clergy, they were 40% of the accused, leaving the Catholic Church, which complains that the media are "priest-bashing," with no grounds for criticism. With outcome unknown in about a fifth of the cases, the study found that 88% of all charged clergy were convicted, with slightly lower conviction rate for priests--81%.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/pedophilia-and-the-church-why-its-so-prevalent.179003/

The bottom line just because someone thumps a bible and was ordained does not mean that you can entrust your children to them

Dig a little deeper first

When do the anti-trappers come in to tell the trappers how trapping works?
If so, I'd label those anti-trapping threads the same as these types of threads.

Disingenuous.

Blessings,
Mark

You gotta smile at a liberalist telling fundamentalists who stand against the immorality of a culture,
and who preach and teach morality,
and who battle liberalists more every year,

.... to "watch out" for the immorality in the land.
Sir, call your liberalist pals in the governing bodies in the land and get busy "judging."

Oh and don't forget liberalists are against judging as you finger point to JUDGE them!
Pedophiles are at historical numerical numbers in our land so get busy on a phone, any phone, danny and lock 'em up!

Liberalists will not. They invite them to explore and find pleasure anywhere they want. Do "whatever" so people do whatever.
"Doesn't matter to me what other people do" may be the 2nd biggest lie satan ever whispered.

We don't need to dig deeper. We need to steer far away from your liberal pals.

Blessings,
Mark

Like you're doing now.

No, I don't hate, or love to hate Christians Trapper 7, but I do hate what hypocrite Christians do.

Mark I would bet if you were a defense attorney you would attack the 15 year old rape victim and paccuse her of immorality saying she asked for it

PS pedophile numbers are not up . Children are no longer afraid to talk about it. They dont get slapped any more for asking what menopause is.



I have no clue what a libralist is and i am not really interested anyway. I can see plainly why instead of being incensed that some low life hid behind ordination to hurt kids easier, you want people to look someplace else.

danny,
Respectfully, you are on the outside looking in and inaccurate a lot.
Suit up and help please.

Many fine Christians support victims every day with relational, emotional, and spiritual support.
We have a very clear picture of the brokenness of society and I don't think truck stops are giving you an accurate picture.

Put up or get off the potty as the old timers used to say.
Come to think of it, folks don't say that much anymore because feelings might get hurt and we don't wanna hurt a liberals feelings.

Chuck rocks or suit up and help.
There is no middle ground.
You'll see if you decide to help others.

Blessings,
Mark

I happen to agree with you 100% on this. One of the reasons stuff like this goes on in all denominations, is because to many parishioners abdicate there responsibility to hold leaders accountable. It is a blind spot in human nature to trust someone in authority who tells you what you want to hear. Church discipline is in the Bible for a reason, but to many churches are afraid of offending someone in today's society to put it into practice. It is not just for the laymen, but also for the leaders.

I think your wrong about pedophilia numbers. Perversions of all kinda are now celebrated. It's only natural that pedophiles are emboldened to act out on their particular perversion as a result.

The Apostle John, the apostolic witness to the crucifixion wrote believers about this topic and he considered it crucial: if you love God, obey (love) him. I can say I love my wife all day long.... you know how you'll know "if" I truly love her? If I truly love my wife Donna I will obey her.
Same with believers. Talk is easy. Obey - to love of God - requires a humble heart and that is not easy for pride, envy, jealousy, and other sin to come to terms with.

The writing of 1 John was from about 95ADm 60 years after the Ascension, and false teachers were splintering and starting their own churches (as humans still do).

The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


1 John 2:4–6.

"Pervasions of all kind are now celebrated."
Boy howdy ain't that the truth!

If they were former trappers and they were accurate?

Accurate disingenuous.

Some things that happen in trapping, you wouldn't want your mother to know about.

Of course they do. How many times have I read on here that trappers are the salt of the earth, great, moral people. But I betcha there are child molesters among us trappers too! Just like among teachers, police, catholics, cashiers, firemen, baptists, athletes, methodists, and on and on. Anyone that thinks it would be impossible for someone claiming to be a Christian to also be a child molester is a fool... and I have seen NO ONE on this thread insinuate that in any way.

You need to go trapping Danny, lol.

So Ang, why do you think people are defending these preachers that were exposed but not the priests?

Mark wants to say I have no morals and have no business posting about it. That I never give a hand to someone who needs it. I think he is afraid.

In ur defense Danny u did offer to bust me out if I got locked up for standing up for my constitutional rights and I haven't forgot it. And I do think you have very strong morals and values even if your not completely sure were they come from.My guess is they were hand down to u from family that were strong Christians but that's purely speculation on my part. :

Can you quote one post defending these preachers? I may have missed it, but I don't think I've seen any.

Why dont you post all the replies CRITCISING ME for posting a link to the article? That is called deflection. Deflection is a tactic to avoid the topic. The topic was Southern Baptists clergy molesting children. Not whether or not stuff I have seen was relevant, or how moral I am. All that deflection from the topic, trying to make it about me instead of ordained ministers hurting children is certainly an attempt to protect them and others like them.

So in other words, there are no post defending the perpetrators.

in other words you are deliberately being obtuse in an effort to anger me and deflect and protect your southern baptist child molesting friends.

I don't see it, Danny. I don't see a single post defending them. And your comment that them attacking you equates to them protecting the molesters is pretty flimsy. If you were a new poster on here and made this post no one would have attacked you for it. It's because they're assuming your motives for posting it based on your past posts. And, based on your past posts, they're probably right, lol.

I could care less if you get angry. There are no posts defending the preachers. The only reason you posted the article is to justify your hatred of God and christianity. Everyone knows that there are people that take advantage of their positions to further their perversions. Teachers, cops, preachers, politicians, priests. It doesn't make it right no matter who it is, which has been said over and over on this thread.

Regardless of what the extremists do, most Muslims only want peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims.

There are almost 3.5 million Muslims in the US. If most of them believed in getting their way by violence, we'd be fighting them in the streets.

Jim

Danny might as well say all blacks are criminals by his logic.

"James, would you have the God of the Bible end all evil that exists in the world today? As in...right this second?"

Yes.

I'd like to see how many members of Congress disappeared in a wink.

Jim

Or that all Muslims believe in violence,

Jim

All true Muslims do. The Muslims that don't believe in violence against Infidels could be equated to Christians that support homosexuality or abortion. They supposedly exist, but they're not real Christians just like Muslims who don't believe in waging Jihad against infidels aren't real Muslims.

So say you.

Jim

https://www.yahoo.com/news/oklahoma-dad-hops-action-sees-145158513.html

Great job by Dad. Glad also to see the church was quick to condemn him. Those Church of Christ people seem a little odd anyways.

Ah well he was Church of Christ not Southern Baptist, so that explains it. Makes about as much sense as your blanket condemnation of Christianity.

Danny, seriously whats going on with you that this is living rent free in your head?

Kind of interesting that Yote can determine who is a real Muslim and decide which of their doctrine they must follow.

Next time I talk to a Muslim I'll ask if they recognize her as an authority to tell them what to believe. lol

Jim

Seriously James, you'd call for an end of all evil?
You'd have the omnipotent God say yep, that's it.... lights out on all evil.... and push the "button."

Blessings,
Mark

Now who's setting the snare? lol

I sense a trap, but yes, I'd put an end to evil if God would push the button for me.

Think of it: wouldn't it be like the Garden of Eden again?

Jim

You do know that would mean lights out for you?

I've considered that possibility, but am somewhat encouraged by the thought that I won't be alone.

Jim

Couldn't A creator of galaxies simply remove the evil from everyone’s brain? Wouldn’t killing everyone simply for being what they were created to be, imperfect, also be evil?

See J Staton: the most interesting people, like Danny, will be going with me.

While you may be stuck with a bunch of Bible thumpers, choir singers, and speakers in tongues.

Jim

Well....enjoy yourself!

My thoughts on this is that the creator doesnt want a bunch of slaves/robots. He loves freedom and wants people to exercise that freewill and judge accordingly.

I can't understand how someone who is constantly on here talking about freedoms that we have lost, and how people are afraid of true freedom, always wants a God that will make them a slave with no choices.

no one is infallible ...all careers have been guilty of the evil of it............ministers, teachers, coaches, congressmen......................most of those also require a degree of trust building...........................yet,,,its usually the church that gets the black eye and the jokes.

B andB you got it wrong. The god you describe, a torture loving sadist, makes no sense to me. I dont think it exists.

I dont desire a god that makes me a slave, I dont think that a creator described in your bible exists. It simply isnt believable.

If there is or was a creator, I dont think that creator is very concerned with the pain that life is full of. That creator is definitely not a loving father

Foxkid i dont think its a joke. A member of the clergy harming children is especially despicable. Much like a cop who steals and sells drugs. People need to be aware those people exist and are not exactly rare.

danny,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's the consequences of free will. same as the consequences of a free society. we can never match the wisdom of the creator............although some of us try.

The problem with that theory, Foxkidd, is that the consequences of free will don't fall only on the perpetrator.

Little Suzie goes off to school, and is hit by a car and killed. She made no choice that led to her death, unless it was the choice to go to school.

Let's say the driver was drunk. Ah-hah! Here is the choice, you say. The driver chose to drink and drive.

But your problem, in trying to show the existence of a just, loving god, is that the consequences don't fall on the drunk driver. The worst consequences fall on Suzie and her family.

Events like the above happen all the time. They're happening often enough that some of us think we can and should cross-examine God, if ever given a chance.

Barring that chance, we have to settle for grilling His followers.

Jim

James didn't you ask these same Christians whom you always belittle , to pray for your granddaughter when she was ill ?

Danny, my point is this,,, whenever a priest walks by,, it’s automatically assumed he’s a child molester,,, yet we have tons of other professions that are equally guilty,,,, no one points as a teacher walks by and says child molester.

Actually, it is just the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Without God and the forgiveness and freedom offered by Jesus Christ, people are slaves to sin. God grants freedom from being a slave to ourselves.

The only people that seem to run counter to this are psychopaths. They have no conscience, they are a perfect example of what you suggest a person would be that is totally free to do as they please.
You suggest that lack of a moral compass is a desirable thing to have, because then you are free, and do not have to answer for any of your decisions.
How would you like a world where everybody lived like that?

Entire books have been devoted to “Why bad things happen to good people.”
No question about it, seeing undeserving people experience an early death or painful disease certainly challenges one’s faith in God. After speaking Friday with the heartbroken wife of a blameless, perfect, kind, generous, hard working, faithful friend who was just then diagnosed with a fatal brain tumor (2-3 weeks to live), I called a mutual friend to talk about the “here I go again” feeling of “Why are you doing this, God?” He said he is grappling with the same thought for the same reason.
Others here have already addressed the responses to why bad things happen to good people, so I won’t repeat them, but I will say I have witnessed so many important miracles and unexpected successes that my belief in God is rewarded every day.
Humans have free will. It is up to each of us to try to control our passions, treat others the way we ourselves want to be treated, be gentle, generous, and kind towards everyone we meet, and to appreciate what we do have. The Bible helps us achieve these goals better than any other thing. It’s not easy, and the alternative is not easy, either.

Who knows, James? Just because you don't know, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason. Maybe little Suzie got hit by a drunk and killed because if she hadn't the next week she would have been snatched on her way to school and forced to spend the next 10 years as a sex slave. Or maybe little Suzie would have ended up being molested by her pastor, or teacher, and God was sparing her that. Maybe she had an undiagnosed fatal disease and He was sparing her and her family a lengthy death. And then there's the drunk. Maybe her death will end up being the thing he needed to get clean and give himself to the Lord. Most people wouldn't think sacrificing her to save him would be worth it but most people don't think like God, either. Maybe He would be viewing it as bringing two souls to Heaven instead of just one. But again, who knows? We can speculate all we want but no one is meant to know the mind of God.

Psychopath is an example of my view. How can a person deserve punishment if they have no conscience? They are more like an animal than a human and if they were created then the creator created them that way.


Locking them up to protect others is a punishment. Locking them up is necessary. Not really done to punish. Just something that must be done if they are not going to be executed.

Yep Ang, preachers been telling me that my whole life. The questions are valid. To me its proof that the god of the bible is an invention of humans.

Well if you are correct, and all the evidence says otherwise, that we who claim that Christ rose from the dead for the salvation of humanity are merely following an invention that requires us to love one another then I choose the delusion over your hellish proposition where you or I have zero compulsion to love much less respect the other.

I have yet to see any evidence of a loving parental creator

You misunderstand my point. Danny, in particular, is on numerous threads claiming people are afraid of freedom, because it sometimes leads to bad consequences. But when it comes to God, he wants Him to only allow good things, i.e. things Danny agrees with, to happen or he won't believe in Him. The problem is, he doesn't accept that true freedom is only found in Christ.

What I accept is that many people, not just Christians, need to believe something is controlling the natural world so nothing truly bad will ever happen. Everything is always for the best in the end.

The heart of the unregenerate have no way of knowing the illuminating power of God, so they argue over believers.
The Seed of the Woman has always been opposed by the seed(s) of the serpent (Genesis 3:15).
It is the entire biblical story.
Two sides.
One side believes and trusts in what they can't know perfectly.
The others are called deniers and say;
Surely God didn't say...
Surely God wouldn't...
Surely God isn't...
If I were God, I would...

There's not much mystery to it all, other than the heavens have revealed God's spender and some marvel at the heavens even before they ever hear the term Bible or hear the name of Jesus.

Thank you Father, Son, and Spirit for making it abundantly clear to those you have called by divine Grace.

Blessings on a Sunday y'all!
Mark

danny , everyone is quite clear that you didn't post this to bring our attention about the child abuse of children in the clergy . Everyone is quite clear that there was no one on here trying to deflect the abuse from one religion to the other . And everyone on here knows your a God hater period . When your laying on your death bed and you know the end is near ( if you have the chance ) I guarantee you'll be talking to God then .

You haven't honestly looked. He's right there, right here and everywhere. Literally He is in all things.

I might suggest breathing in and out and then smiling about that wonder of God's grace.
Because some won't continue in that grace after today according to God's will.

I find it fascinating that folks most often think very differently about those things that matter in their final hours.
They often confide in me they wish they'd have lived their lives much different.

Some good posts on here Tman'ers!

Blessings,
Mark

What a tough choice it would be to decide between meeting you or Moses.

I've been reading these religious posts for years on Tman. Some of them are interesting--this one not so much.

Why don't the believers and non-believers just call it a truce? I have yet to see one person that has converted to the other side. In fact, a few of the spokespeople for each side are likely turning people away with their comments.

I'm not sure anyone's trying to "win" BC and a truce symbolizes a battle of sorts.
I can only speak for this dude when I say I don't think followers of Jesus have the kind of power it takes to change hearts,
and I don't answer to win, but more so to dialog.

Believers are given instructions as to how to engage others and we should follow Scripture where Jude writes;

And have mercy on some, who are doubting, (unbelievers)
save others, snatching them out of the fire; (believers)
and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh (false teachers)

Jude 22–23

Blessings,
Mark

^^^^^
A lot of truth to that.

No one ever talks someone into faith.

I've heard it said; " If I can talk you into faith in Jesus Christ, then someone else can talk you out of it".

All I can do is give you a reason for the Hope that I have, God does the rest of the convincing. It is then up to you to believe or to reject.

I believe your intentions but I have disagree a bit--some here are playing to win.

I started this post when I saw a news report about clergy molesting children. It was not an attempt to bash clergy or Christianity.

The hollywood crowd and the posers that pass as musicians today are mostly perverted.

The condition of mankind is to reject the father/child relationship that you speak of Danny.

That is the story of the garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and chose to define right and wrong for themselves when they chose to eat from the tree God said would destroy them if they ate from it

Their son would go on to kill his brother, further exiling themselves from God

Same story when God saved them from slavery in Egypt, reestablishing to humanity that He is the same Creator God spoke of in Genesis, only to watch Israel worship a golden statue of a cow claiming it was had rescued them.

Despite them literally just agreeing to be in a special relationship with God, to not do that very thing

And on and on the story goes

Mankind has collectively rejected God, through various scenarios, the result is always the same

It's what Moses foretold in the closing chapters of Deuteronomy


Why does God allow suffering? It's because it's what we choose

Instead of mankind ruling on Earth as God's representatives, we've subjected ourselves to the ruler of this age, the same snake in the garden that deceived Adam and Eve

So what's the point?

Why doesn't God make us robots that never do anything wrong?

The closest that has been done to that was the angels, created beings to which no doubt were also instructed similarly to do good, don't do evil

Well somehow Lucifer deceived 1/3 of the angels into not obeying God. Into rebelling. And he became the adversary, and they became demons.

Apparently they didn't trust what God had told them


And God finally sent his own son, to succeed where man had repeatedly failed


To obey to the point of death, and to not be deceived, and finally defeat the snake

The choice to redefine good and evil ourselves, to do what is right in our own eyes, leads to destruction and death

And once mankind's sins are to a point of self destruction, God will intercede to save us from ourselves

And after millennia of man's doing things his way, under Satan's influence,Satan will be taken away and mankind will be taught to live God's way

After one thousand years of Christ's rule, we will be able to compare to the prior multiple millennia of mankind's/Satan's rule


“But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

I understand these are all who have never been offered God's Holy Spirit, never heard of Jesus Christ, (some?) will be offered a choice

The pain of life is the lesson of the choice man had made

God has set out to repair the relationship the man had continually damaged

And in the end we will see we can trust God, and He will know who He can trust

That's more than I wanted to say, but still I take just skimmed over it. I could've posted an article, but I find personal views to be more genuine

Ecclesiastes in a song....
Enjoy

So where's the snare? The catch?

Jim

James,
No catch. No snare.

People often deny that they know what they in fact know.
I believe you reside in that camp.

That is part of the captivity of evil and the blindness it causes in humans.

Evil is important because it points empirically (we see it and we experience it) to the existence of God...
and towards the idea that this is a good world gone wrong.

Atheists and agnostics have no argument for evil other than to deny what they in fact know.

Blessings,
Mark

I don't accept the notions that humans cannot be good without God, or that evil points to the existence of God.

Good and evil exist without regard to the existence of God. People who know nothing of Abraham's God can know right from wrong, good from bad. Their societies may be godless, but will still punish bad (evil) behavior.

I don't know what you meant by this, Mark. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate:

"Atheists and agnostics have no argument for evil other than to deny what they in fact know."

Jim

Rom2:14-15 "for when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or excusingone another"

God has written in each mans heart what is morally right and what is morally wrong. He has given you a conscience, without that you be just an animal with no sense of right and wrong. Their is no argument for right and wrong outside of this. Without God writing his law in youre heart you would have no concept of it.

If this were true, there would be no need for lawyers

In my short 40 years on earth, I have seen what was once defined as evil called good, and once was considered as good, called evil

We are heading to the point where 'everyone did what was right in their own eyes'

(it's a refrain repeated in the book of Judges, a dark, bloody period in Israel's history)

Jim,
You might benefit greatly from reading C.S. Lewis (1898 -1963) and Alvin Plantinga's writings on evil. Lewis was, all his life an atheist, until his wife's sudden illness and death. He, an atheist, had no answers for the misery he found himself in, and his words are, "I find I have no argument for evil (his wife's illness) other than to deny what I already know which is evil exists and it comes from somewhere."

Lewis went on to become one of the greatest apologists Christianity has known. Known for his Chronicles of Narnia of course, Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" are my favorite where two demons converse about how to deceive people and turn them from "the enemy" (God). All of Lewis' writings are brilliant and candid.

What if.... God made a world where all things were simply "good" with no chance of "bad" happening? Fire is one example. Good for cooking and heat. Bad when it burns you. If you ponder deeper, you can see that the world is creatively made with things that can be either good or bad, and that human choice in these things sets a trajectory for whether they are used for their good purpose or their bad purpose. My dog is made a dog and she's my pal, very good hunter, and a family pet all in one, but my human choice could have made her an attack animal. My choice to make a dog be good or bad.
Sexual intimacy is pleasurable and good of course for...be fruitful and multiply... but humans can turn it into abuse and trauma.
This is God's creation Jim.
Full of things for our good.
And with human choice, created by God..... we humans can choose to do good or bad with them.
And we sure do. That's a FACT.
And C.S. Lewis said once he decided to take his atheists blinders off, he saw these choices virtually everywhere in everything....
and he stopped denying he didn't know what he already knew.
The existence of God is true because of the deep questions he needed answers to.
Or else nothing would really matter.

Here's a short article from the C.S. Lewis institute you might find answers in;
https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/636

Blessings,
Mark

as it was stated earlier...none of our dicussions on here will change anyones opinons as to who belives and who does not.........its just easier for me to explain why I do.......just look at whats before us...........that should be evidence enough for some........from the diversity of life in plants, animals,fish, insects ....to our own atmosphere.....we have built in protection from the sun ...letting in just enough to let life do its thing........clear down to the bacteria we need in our guts to help us survive.....like a fine tuned motor......if that all happened by accident,,,why do we not have other planets around our sun doing the same?? as for me........I lucked out...not only do I have the afformentioned reasons, but I have witnessed the prescence of the living god......I cannot explain it to anyone in words...and anyone whos been there ,,,knows exactly what im talking about....I sometimes wish god would reveal his prescence , the way he did to me, to others who are struggling with faith, but he is god, and he knows his business better than we do, but he has promised that in the end all will be revealed........

If you put couple kids in a room with bowls of fruit and one of candy then tell them dont eat candy. Shut the door and watch through the key hole till they eat a piece if candy. Rush into the room and spank them. Tell them for the rest of their lives how evil they are for eating that candy. Will that make you a loving responsible parent?

The thing about believers talking to unbelievers is the constant reference to tales like that. If you dont believe them you dont believe them. Repeating them over and over doesn’t make them sound any more truthful.


Trying to say a person who does not believe in the bibles creator can not know right from wrong is about as crazy as saying a talking snake is the reason little kids get cancer.

That's not the analogy Danny.

It was about choosing a path of self destruction. Of death.

God won't allow mankind to live forever in misery.
.


I feel the same way when people try to explain evolution

It's ludicrous to think earth, life, came along by happenstance

You don't believe a spirit being could take the form of a snake, but you believe all life formed from a pool of crud in the ocean

Who's crazier?






You're oblivious to what's happening in the world around you if you think everyone agrees in what is good and what is evil.

It's no coincidence that as a society rejects even the basic tenets of the Bible, the fall into to a path of self destruction

Since when has everyone agreed on right and wrong? Since when have christians agreed on right and wrong? Why do you think you know what I believe? I believe you only know what I don’t believe.

I believe we are self destructing the same way Rome did. A society that rose to dominate the world while being polytheistic . Then collapsed under widespread corruption of government and big business

A person only realizes right from wrong because of the God of the Bible.

Then why do unbelievers know right from wrong?

Jim

See my previous answer James. It is the answer. Read the word "realize" a couple times over for better noggin absorption.

How would you as an agnostic argue the consciousness of right and wrong in only humans?

Blessings,
Mark

Humans are the only species that we know of who are self-aware and aware that others have selves. Who recognizes rights in others so that such rights will also be theirs.

Now I have a question for you: Why don't some people have a conscience? Some people, like psychopaths for instance, KNOW right from wrong, but feel no sense of guilt or wrong-doing for transgressing it. They can do ANYTHING without remorse.

Why did God make them that way?

Jim

fixed it for you

Cmon white marlin. How about if you have no answer you just don’t reply?

Btw, Mark: I read one of Lewis's books, The Problem of Pain, I think was the title, years ago, Don't remember much about it.

Jim

Scientists have identified a region of the human brain associated with conscience and another area associated with self-restraint.

Under PET scans, these regions don't light up in one kind of person: the psychopath (as diagnosed by qualified psychiatrists).

Did God or Nature make them that way?

Jim

The Bible says a sinner can sear their conscience to the point it becomes uselss. Science may have caught up to it.

just pointing out an obvious hypocrisy.

God allowed nature to make them that way. Just as he allows nature to create a child with downs syndrome. It doesn't seem fair, but we live in a broken world. If it were a perfect world without pain and suffering it would be called heaven/paradise. We sort of screwed that up.

Well it used to be we all knew what made a boy a boy, and that a boy should marry a girl. But that truth has been "redefined".

We also once knew it was wrong to bust into stores and steal from them, but now if we are protesting some perceived injustice it's ok.

I could go on but you brought up a lot of topics.

All Christians agree on many basic truths, like the topics I just covered.

And you're right, I don't know what you believe. You've been pretty busy attacking Christianity to enlighten us with your take on things.

Not sure if you have the answer or if you are one of those critics with no answer




They did rise being polytheistic

It's funny you brought that up


They would rise to power by grinding fellow humans into dust


You made a thread warning about how Christianity endorsed slavery

About 25% of the polytheistic Roman Empire was enslaved

Human trafficking and slavery was the lifeline of the Empire

The poor would sell their own children into slavery

To be a slave in the Roman Empire was different than the slaves spoke of in the Bible

Unlike biblical slaves, Roman slaves had no rights, could be killed without reason

They would be forced into sexual slavery, prostitution

God instructed the Israelites to give them the Sabbath off, one day off out of seven

It would have been radical in the time and context it was written

The teachings of the Bible would eventually end slavery here, legally anyways



If you have some vision of a better explanation of what is going on in the world, by all means enlighten us

You will have to present a pretty good case to convince me otherwise

Whats going on now that has not gone on before? We have some really amazing technology but the one thing I do get from the bible is that human nature has not changed any.


P.S. Lots of Christian churchs accept homosexuality.

Seems like I remember something biblical about theft being excused at times


Proverbs 6:30-31

The leaders of those churches are the ones Paul warned about. They are not Christians.

Don't forget that Jesus told his disciples to go rustle livestock to get him a ride.

Jim

You're pretty quick to pronounce judgment on who is a Muslim, who is a Christian, etc.


Jim

Not judging, that's God's job. Just stating that, according to Jesus' words in the Bible, those people are not practicing Christianity. The Bible warns that there will be many false teachers who preach things that are contrary to God's demands, and that we should be vigilant in checking them against the words of God. If you'd spend some time reading the New Testament you would also know all this James.

let's play a little game...

how would you defend Him against those charges in a court of law?

I can envision that time about 2,000 years ago.....

when the false religious teachers called Pharisees, and wise diviners, magicians and more would sneer amid their own self-glorifying activities and their self-glorifying banter at the followers of Christ telling them; "show us, answer us, prove to us.... about your God!"

Satan tempted Jesus the very same way. Evil has existed a very long time and has been Biblically referred to as "the accuser."

Many came to the Christian faith in 1st century because the Christians died well.. Put to death, there is strong historical commentary from that era, that Christians would typically die in the coliseums... by beasts or some other tortuous manner (especially under Roman Emperor Domitian who was the most heinous), but who would all die singing psalms and praying. Domitian actually ended the coliseum torture rituals because the crowds would see the way the Christians died well, and who already knew Christians were the only people to open their homes to strangers (never done in ancient times).... and CONVERT from paganism to Christianity.

Martyrdom has always been the seed of the faith because the hope of the Gospel is real.
It still is.
And when the last martyr is called home, the Trumpet sounds.
And the answers will begin with the One upon the Mercy Seat asking all the questions.
So it is written.

Come to find out....
Our modern day Pharisees, and scribes (attorneys), diviners, and wise men aren't the product of evolution as Chuckie D. claimed. They're more of the same old same old.
No evolving happening. Just the tic toc tic toc of the Creator's hands of time.

Blessings y'all!
Mark

only a lawyer could turn that story into rustling livestock.

That's true. But, there's also the reality of your actions such as prison, even execution. Common sense tells anyone, if you kill someone, there will be physical consequences.

it's a false accusation, by an overzealous "prosecutor" anyway.

Jesus said [paraphrased]...if anybody asks you about this, tell them the Lord requires it; and they'll be okay with it.

I ask you James...does the tern "anybody" include the owner? if so, the owner agreed to the Lord's need.

Matthew 21:3 [New Living Translation] "If anyone asks what you are doing, just say, ‘The Lord needs them,’ and he will immediately let you take them.”

Could we agree that the more you walk alongside people, that old saying from the Scottish Reformers (Common Sense), has a wide swath of meaning.
What is common to one person may not be common to the next.


The Scots coined the term to label what a majority of people believed,
while common sense in the 21st century usually refers to what "that" person thinks.

Blessings,
Mark

I am thinking its the same old same old because the same questions and doubts appeared about 200 years after Jesus was executed. When the gospels were being “copied” into what is studied today. When Constantine started putting this religion under one doctrine in order to unite his empire, the folks he had doing it argued over whether or not to portray Jesus as divine. The resurrection story appeared a couple centuries after the execution. Constantine and the Popes who followed him suppressed a lot contradictory accounts. I believe that initially the Crusades were more about shoring up the Catholic version of events. Those pesky Muslims said Jesus was a prophet.

Danny, whether or not what you say about Constantine's guys is accurate or not is immaterial, the early church fathers (not to mention the apostles) had already established Christ's divinity two hundred years prior to any political motivation on Constantine's part. Let's strive for accuracy in our arguments.

I think when Jesus started telling people that the Jewish law was outdated, started saying no more animal sacrifice, No more eye for an eye, people should love each other, he got a lot of enemies. The more people began to listen to his message of forgiveness and passivity the more Jewish leaders were incensed. When he was executed with the blessing of Jewish clergy, his followers were heartbroken.

When christians were first executed in the arena about 30-40 years later it was for arson.

Couple hundred years later when the gospels were “copied” they began being executed for refusing to participate in sacrifices to Roman gods. Others were executed for the same thing including Jews.