Whatcha think about these groups ?

So trying to rework a old load for my 5.56 ( AR 16" barrel 1/7 twist 3-9x4 Nikon scope shooting off bags) with a 75gr Hornady HPBT originally I was getting right right under 1" @100 yd with ten rounds forgot my fps I'll have to check my notes. But that was with Varget. Varget just seems to be magic ,I swear. Well I got like half a can left and I'm saving that for my other guns. I'm trying Ram shot TAC and I've been trying to work it up but it's been a lil frustrating. So far these are my best two groups . Well one being the best velocity waist the other group wise. All my others have alot of vertical stringing for some reason. I'm shooting off of bags talking my time with each shot ect. My standard deviations are nuts though up to 90fps in some loads. Anyhow this is the best group so far.
This was ten rounds 100yd 22.5 gr average fps 2331 standard deviation 90fps


Really really slow I mean it's just a lil better then some of my cast stuff but it's super promising as far as grouping

Then theirs this one. Forgot to start my app to record everything but it was popping up in the 2600 range . It's the velocity I'd really like and this one isnt stringing like all the others did. It was trying to do something with three of them I'm thinking there others could have just been me.



I'm already at full mag length so I'm guessing I better start backing off to see if these wanna jump some. But what do y'all think?

Doesn't look to bad.

Wolfdog. My only experience with the Tac powder is with cartridges of 308 or that are based off of the 308. Tac really preforms in that family. Id keep workin a bit with it in youre 5.56, but, as you said, varget gets the knod! Im shooting the same bullet in my 22-6mm. Much slower powders though. Have you tried BL-C2 yet? Or maybe some of the old 223 powders. Good luck!

I get playin with loads to see just how good it can get but either only of those should be fine for hunting

Play with it, every barrel has it's favorites..

It will kill a deer,,but my old Marlin 30-30 does better than that with factory Winchester loads.Just sayin.

vertical problems might be different bullet weights, I have seen it with some of my stuff out of the same box.......jk

Wolf with that standard deviation I would expect some fliers. Those are good groups but they can be much better. You need to concentrate on closing up that deviation that is easier said than done. My 30-378 that I hunt with has a 5 deviation and they pretty much stack. It's not easy but that is half the fun making your brain get outside the box sometimes. I would have to say that what your groups indicate is the potential for an awesome outcome. I'm like you though in that Varget is definitely my go to powder for my ar's.

Well he's some more targets. Though it was just me at first but their all stinging about the same way

Not too bad for buckshot.

Try cfe223 for .223/5.56

Excellent accuracy can be achieved.

if your under a minute your good , no need to chase smaller , now gather data where does it hit at every range you can get a target too.

a 10 round group at an inch to 1 1/4 is solid

people get all excited about 3 shot groups , the consistency to do 10 at 1MOA and repeat it over and over is better than someones 3 shot group at a half inch.or less.

Well said GREENCOUNTYPETE. I could care less what a 3 shot group will do. I also , once I get it grouping at 100 I generally will take it out to 150/200 and see what it does. I've had a couple that keyhole at 100 only to produce a pattern at 200. Some say that certain speeds and BC's don't stabilize till it gets a little further out. I don't really know what it is but I've had it happen. By the time I get it re dialed in my brain usually hurts too much to think about it.

Wolfe, a few questions. Is this the AR you were asking about shooting off bags with the collapsible stock? If so, that stock by its self will contribute to vertical stringing. Just no was to stabilize it with a rear bag, and for me, the collapsible stocks are terrible for a consistent cheek weld with optics. Also, front bipod, correct? Heavy, gritty trigger?
Second, 223 /5.56 is notoriously hard to get low SD's with, even with benchrest loading techniques. My mid-range F class loads, 80 grain Bergers over Varget average around 11 fps SD, but it took a lot of trial, and error, and burnt powder to get there. At 100 yards, 11 fps doesn't show up on the target, but at 600, it'll be out of the X ring. My 308 loads, for comparison, average around 4 to 5 fps SD.
Lastly, that 75 Hornady is a long bullet for weight, but it should stabilize out of a 1:7 at speeds above 2350fps or so. It may just one of the combinations of powder and bullet that just don't work in your barrel. I've used TAC some in the 5.56, but never had the best results, accuracy wise with it compared to say Varget or R-15.
Shoot me a PM sometime when you have a chance. I have a bunch of AR 'stuff' and load data.

I do almost all of my work with bolts and single shots so the AR guys have a better baseline for advice but one thing you might consider is how you shoot the rifle. Do you auto load from the mag or load singles when you are ready to shoot again. By loading singles you will reduce the potential for temperature effects on the powder/cartridge as it heats sitting in the chamber. Depending on the temperature sensitivity of the powder I believe it can be important.

You might find it easier to get your other guns to shoot with a powder other than Varget. I've had good luck with getting IMR-4064
to shoot the same as Varget in my .30-06.

So true

Looks like fun. Personally, I could never get my crosshairs to settle down when shooting at an orange fluorescent target. Maybe just my eyes, but I could never use them while dialing in a load for a “Turkey shoot”

I have tried Tac and am not that impressed with it in the 223. RL15 is a good one if you have run out of Varget. DFE223 is ok as well and I use that for the high volume rounds as the ani fouling stuff they put in it seems to work quite well. If I can't get sub MOA I am not happy

With my AR-10 I have worked and worked on trying to tighten my groups... Heavier bullets, lighter bullets, different brass, powder, and primers, seating depth, increased buffer weights, new trigger... The trigger helped a bit, but really, no joy.

The only 2 things I haven't tried to correct...

1) I'm positive the gun is over gassed, brass gets beat to h€!!, flies to about 1:30 and stovepipes enough to make me think gas is an issue... (But could be my brass catcher contributing to that some) You can feel that BCG hammering that buffer to the bottom of the buffer tube. Rings like a bell. Probably need an adjustable gas block to tame it a bit. Possibly a stouter buffer spring too.

2) The adjustable butt stock is nearly impossible to keep on the rear bag and is fairly sloppy to begin with.

I also suspect my digital scope lacks the resolution for precision shooting... It's fine for minute-of-hog/deer to 300 yards or so, but not for trying to stack them in one hole at 100.

There's also a chance that I just got a crummy barrel... And it's a semi auto.

I realize none of my issues may equate to yours, but there are about 300 things to check when you're running a gas gun. Just a little food for thought.

Mike

Well decided to get with the fastest load so far. Got 20rd loaded up backed off my original steering depth with was technically a little over the books Max mag length. Backed off 0.020 thou now I'm working back in O.003 incriminates.

Yeah guys looks like that slow load is gonna be it with this powder. No sure what elese I can do to make this work better .

Have any 4895 or 4198?

What was the sd of your varget load?

Are your loads compressed? If not, are you shooting powder forward or powder back?

Also, you can load your bullets past the coal. Your limitations are going to be your mag (if you are using it) and extracting a loaded round.

What is the goal of this ar build that you are working on?

I would be making up about 20-25 minimum ( I know component shortage I would normally say 50) of the #9 set 2617 with a SD of 18 and shooting 5 round groups

and shooting some groups

that looks like a carbine length gas system , with a standard hand guard meaning not free floated your very likely over gassed and pressing on the barrel some

a 1 1/2 inch group wouldn't be bad for that rig if your doing better than that your doing good

try it out farther , some times you can see too well at 100 yards and you hold more steady at 200 yards


as for a bullet doesn't stabilize till a certain distance I call fowl bad science , if a load is 2moa at 50 yards if never gets better than 2moa it can only get worse

what I have seen is you don't try and adjust for every little thing at 200 , 300 , 400 cause you can't see your wiggle so you shoot better not the gun.

Ok guys thanks for all the advice. So I was mis spoken , the best load I had with this bullet was 8208xbr my apologies. Good thing I kept notes lol.

Well here's that group , still reckon I should try more shots ?


Mabye it's me shooting bad ? I would try future but the lock range only goes out to 130 max.

Not sure on the last load. Nothing's compressed with these , not sure what you mean by shooting the powder forward or back. As far as length.i was loading a tad over Max mag length.
My hard jam was 1.968" ( I use cbto instead of coal)
And my Mac mag length ended up being 1.856" all my previous loads where that. Until today when I was back off tho see if I could find a node possibly. I need this load to be able to run though my mag so kinda stuck there. As far as the build,well it's not really a build ,just my old ar I'm trying to get to shoot as well as possible. Wanted a longer range bigger game load hence why I'm using the 75gr hpbt

Nope got some h322 I've been considering though

Also here all the brass from today

one group can be good to get SD, but one group doesn't give a great picture of the group size

if you did get a really good group make more of that also and test both , best SD vs Best group

try different shaped and colored target dots

blaze orange reflects too much light back and can make it blurry hard to get the same center of the dot every time

try black squares turned on a 45 this way each point lines up with the cross hair of the scope

you can cut them out of cardboard paint them and staple them to the target or black construction paper

good crisp edges make it easier to shoot than drawing a square with a sharpie

the 75gr HPBT isn't really a game load it is a match bullet , the hollow point doesn't mean expansion in match rifle bullets like it does in personal defense pistol bullets

Actually kinda why I picked it. Sounds weird but for what I'm after I wanted more penetration than anything many spinal shots on hogs and just blowing through coyote

Load a bullet in the chamber. Point the muzzle to the sky and give it a tap. Now, very carefully lay the gun on the bags and take the shot. That is powder back. For your next shot stand up and and load the rifle but this time point the muzzle down and give it a tap. Carefully lay it on the bags and take the shot. That is powder forward. Powder forward gives less velocity and powder back gives more. I find it easier for me to shoot powder back. Take your crony with you and you will be surprised.

You can take a load that has an es of 15fps and turn it into one with an es of 60+fps.

Hey Wolfie,. you ever try shooting groups with the scope turned down to a low power ? Like maybe 3 or 6 power. Sometimes I shoot at low magnification with excellent results. I'm not sure how it helps, but maybe your brain focus on the trigger instead of the cross hairs.

you seem to have that labeled 29gr 24 is the max with that powder , do you use close top 4 I use only open top 4 for that reason

edit:seeing your 4 at the top of the target it makes the one at the bottom look even more like a 9

we do this in Appleseed , you don't see your wiggle , so you don't try to adjust for it is one thing that can be happening

You know what I might actually need to try that . I was playing around and had it zoomed out to 4x and I felt alot more comfortable shooting for some reason