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On the subject Converting "Antis"

Posted By: Wolfdog91

On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 03:57 PM

Disclaimer : just to save alot of people time and breath. Yes this is a long post ,yes I do sound like a complete liberal to alot of y'all, no I'm not saying every trapper need to be doing this. I'm not saying that is the best way to do this. If your a manly man who thinks think you should try to make everyone who's anti fur and cry then just save yourself some time and don't read this. I'm just sharing my experience and I'm not saying this will convert every anti on the planet. NO IM NOT AND EXPERT

Talking to alot of people who many would consider antis or anti fur. I'm in alot of different things that lead me to talk to folks who consider themselves antitrappers or anti fur and honestly I gotta say a good 70% of them actually ain't that hard to convince other wise. I mean seriously you just cannot come at it front he mind set of a trapper first,just don't work it seems. And don't get defensive either. So here the usual deal that seems to happen.
Just talking and the subject of Wear fur or similar comes up. Usually it's something along the lines of " I don't wear fur because fur is murder or killing animals strictly for fur really dosent seem right"

BTW keep laws politics and religion out of this entire conversation nobody cares just don't do it.

I usually tell them I find that thought process interesting and ask them to explain a little more howed they come to think this so on and so on and usually what it is they genuinely like animals, they don't like seeing animals harmed what so ever and they see PETA and similar as these shining knights. You have to understand that easily 60% of these people are not these crazy nut jobs that will burn your house down. Those are a completely different deal all together and where not speaking on them. The others 70 something percent really aren't bad people.They really really just don't know too much though they just think that these organizations are full of nice people.helping animals and their donations are the one little thing they can do because they physically can't do much. So many outdoors men I talk to would really blow up on these type of folks calling them names and the like or send them pic of dead animals ( please for the sake of God don't do that ! All that does is create enemies for us). That's seriously the wrong things to do
Now the key that I'm finding here is you cannot ,and I see this happen soooooo much, you cannot try and just stone wall these people with facts or this " nature is cruel and everything you know is a lie " thing I see so many trappers and other outdoors men do. It's like it send them into shock and their first response to just revert back to what they "know" and double down then they get defensive,your gonna get defensive and it's just not gonna work what so ever. It's like telling a guy who's only ever used a 30-30 int the deep woods of the UP that a scoped 6.5 creed is the best thing ever just won't work, can throw all the facts you want just won't,they will double down on their experience and that's it.
Best thing I've found is get a little common ground and walk them in. And honestly it's seriously not that hard ,well at least for me it isn't. They say they love animals . Hay I do to ! Talk about my dogs my ,fish ,how I've rehabbed baby critters or why I like this perticular animal so much why I think various predators are so cool yadda yadda yadda . Not really too much. Then their like hay that awsome! Now we got some common ground they feel respected. Now we can actually have a conversation. And I'll tell them " well you know I do hunt trap and fish" .
Now once you say that it usually confuses them a bit. And when they ask the pretty common thing of " wait you love animals? But you kill animals?" That's where you can actually start to change somones mind. Because if your like me and you showed them all this pictures of animals you own baby critters you've raised up your you can speak with some emotion (gotta understand alot of these people are a bit on the emotional side for various reasons) about why you like this animal or watching deer or whatever it's pretty hard at that point of them to say " well who cares he's just a cold hearted murder" I mean they can but since your not pushing them to accept anything really their not going to just be freaking out . It's just a easier pill for them.
Then at that point you can calmly ( and there's a difference between being calm like your dad when he's disappointed in you and calm like your happy to have a friendly chat) explain what you do in short kinda professional terms. Dont go " o heck yeah I'm best coyote killer in there here woods ! Can't stand em !wanna kill everyone I see ! " Just say yeah I'm a licensed trapper been doing it for a while and theirs honestly alot people really don't understand about what we do .
Don't get super technical be down to earth and just try and keep some common ground. If they say they don't like the idea of trapping animals just for fur most trappers can probably agree with them in that like " well I can understand you not wanting people to kill animals JUST for there fur but that actually not really the case many times" Something along those lines will usually get them curious enough to ask more questions. Your not being confrontational your being kind and inviting so it just makes folks feel like they won't be made to feel stupid for asking stuff they just plain dont know. And after talking to alot of these type of people that's a big deal. Alot of them are very curious but they just had bad experiences trying to learn and folks making them feel stupid.
So yeah if they ask something like " well do you eat them ? " Just explain in a relaxed manner that no these animals you can't eat for XYZ reason. Explain most other animals won't even touch the meat . But after you say that gotta give a positive. Like " yeah it's a shame you can't really east coyotes but along with the fur you can also clean the skulls and other various bones for resale the glands can be used to this and that the carcasses can help various scavenger birds during the winter ect. Give positives but don't just blow wind up there rears like trapping and fur is the best thing since sliced bread.
And once you got all that going and their actually curious then You can reccomended them go and read a article about stuff peta does. Noting about how they send death threats and all that stuff . Just " hay look I know you said you love animals and you donate to PETA because you think their really good people and I get that but I'd reccomended you check out some of this stuff about where all the money goes and what happens to alot of these animals" don't push it just offer it. If they take it fine if they don't fine.
And honestly that's really all it takes to just lay the "ground work"
. There's a bit more too it and it seem like a lot but try it isn't and I've had alot of people end up sending me messages later on asking about trapping wolves or if they still use traps that break their feet .again alot of these people really don't know , they think theirs only like 100 wolves left in the world. Like one of the girls I hand out with alot thought river otters where almost extinct till I explained to her how they've been re introduced to many states and their thriving down here to the point their actually a problem. I've gotten a lot of messages down the lines of " hay you made alot of sense any recommendations where I could buy some fur XYZ" or " hay you where right ! I looked Into PETA and their horrible" I've gotten as down right stuff like " hay I don't think I'll ever really be comfortable with the idea of wearing fur but since talking with you I don't think trappers and hunters are really as bad as Everyone says " but yeah I was just talking to a girl on one of my gaming chats about fur and got her not more accepting of the idea and while it was still fresh I. My mind figured I type this up.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 04:15 PM

I gave up on them. Trying to convert an anti is hopeless. If reality could change their mind they wouldn't be an anti. They live in a fantasy world inside their head and you can't drag them out of it. A few urbanites are unaware of the cruelty (for lack of a better word) in the natural world and can be educated. You might could win the powerball too
Posted By: Macthediver

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 04:24 PM

Danny is right a true anti you can never change. The only Christian way to would be to just eliminate them.

Mac
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 04:29 PM

Third paragraph I explain I'm not talking about true crazy antis.....
Posted By: warrior

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 05:57 PM

My experience.

The vast majority have no firm position on trapping other than it seems distasteful based on what they've been exposed to by society. Yet when the squirrels move into the attic or in a recent example foxes under a deck it do what you gotta do to get them gone.
Posted By: white dog

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by warrior
My experience.

The vast majority have no firm position on trapping other than it seems distasteful based on what they've been exposed to by society. Yet when the squirrels move into the attic or in a recent example foxes under a deck it do what you gotta do to get them gone.


TRUTH
Posted By: Sharon

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 06:40 PM

This type of reasoning has been done on a professional level for decades.

Bob Noonan has written many articles on the genteel approach of an ADC man reasoning with clients and others who are curious. I have never known anyone explain and reason with this subject better than Bob.

Many ADC men who work regularly with people in bigger cities and the berbs usually have a seasoned easy way of dealing with those who just need more education.

I tell people my own experience in coming to know about trapping . It puts them at ease a lot more, in that they aren't the only ones who at some point didn't know about trapping and the reasons why it is done.

Like anything else, and I mean anything, in which someone has their mind basically made up due to emotion and/or not having facts presented to them, it takes time, and finding common ground is the place to start. Then it is up to them to absorb what they have learned, and find the humility to want to be educated further.
Posted By: white dog

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 06:56 PM


Conversation instead of confrontation. Developing rapport is an essential component when trying to influence thoughts. Or at least that’s my experience.

Convincing someone that something is ethical and morally right is much more important than telling them you have a legal right. The simple solution if someone uses the legal right argument is to change the law. We have seen many examples of that over the past 40 years.
Posted By: hippie

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 07:30 PM

It starts with their parents and continues in our schools.

Nothing you can do about how their parents think, but there is about the school environment they're subjected to.
Posted By: Dirty D

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/13/22 07:38 PM

Wolfie, you are wise beyond your years.

I see many hunters/trappers and fisherman not only on this site but others with an obnoxious attitudes about wildlife that hurts our side more than they realize. Maybe they don't care, I'm not sure.

Most younger people I know are generally anti's on a low level. They don't hunt/fish/trap. They have no exposure to it so they are unaware of alot. I have never met a rapid anti. But I live in a rural area and most around here understand mother natures cruelties.

I can talk to them and while they don't agree with hunting/fishing/trapping they can easily be convinced that its not just a bad thing. I usually start with what i feel is the right premise that its like everything, there is good and bad to it. Exposing the good along with the bad helps. Shows that you are not closed minded and you are willing to give them points. Doing this will help them to give you points and move them your way.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by white dog

Conversation instead of confrontation. Developing rapport is an essential component when trying to influence thoughts. Or at least that’s my experience.

Convincing someone that something is ethical and morally right is much more important than telling them you have a legal right. The simple solution if someone uses the legal right argument is to change the law. We have seen many examples of that over the past 40 years.


Yep, that what I can't get into alot of trappers heads. They'll do something that gets Karen up in flames and can't understand why she's still mad when they explain something is legal to do. Theirs 100 upon thousands of things that are legal to do but just plain ain't right so that's a crappy argument.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty D
Wolfie, you are wise beyond your years.

I see many hunters/trappers and fisherman not only on this site but others with an obnoxious attitudes about wildlife that hurts our side more than they realize. Maybe they don't care, I'm not sure.

Most younger people I know are generally anti's on a low level. They don't hunt/fish/trap. They have no exposure to it so they are unaware of alot. I have never met a rapid anti. But I live in a rural area and most around here understand mother natures cruelties.

I can talk to them and while they don't agree with hunting/fishing/trapping they can easily be convinced that its not just a bad thing. I usually start with what i feel is the right premise that its like everything, there is good and bad to it. Exposing the good along with the bad helps. Shows that you are not closed minded and you are willing to give them points. Doing this will help them to give you points and move them your way.



Thanks for the compliment, wouldn't say I'm wise though lol. But yeah the amount of outdoors men who just don't care is crazy. I could tell stories for days about clashes I've had with other outdoors man but I don't feel like typing that much. But to say we are out own worst enemies many times is an understatement.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sharon
This type of reasoning has been done on a professional level for decades.

Bob Noonan has written many articles on the genteel approach of an ADC man reasoning with clients and others who are curious. I have never known anyone explain and reason with this subject better than Bob.

Many ADC men who work regularly with people in bigger cities and the berbs usually have a seasoned easy way of dealing with those who just need more education.

I tell people my own experience in coming to know about trapping . It puts them at ease a lot more, in that they aren't the only ones who at some point didn't know about trapping and the reasons why it is done.

Like anything else, and I mean anything, in which someone has their mind basically made up due to emotion and/or not having facts presented to them, it takes time, and finding common ground is the place to start. Then it is up to them to absorb what they have learned, and find the humility to want to be educated further.





I used to watch alot of debates and what not and that where I learned alot of this from. Look at somone like Jordan Peterson, the guy absolutely destroys people because he does basically what you state in your last paragraph.
Posted By: warrior

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 12:49 PM

I'm seeing something here I don't like.

Calling out other outdoors folk as obnoxious is not our problem. Matter of of fact it's this cowardice that we somehow have to hide and sneak around that has not only trappers but all that is right and correct in our society in full retreat before the onslaught of the left.

We wonder just how we lost the universities or why perversion is the rule of the day in our primary schools.

It's cowardice and feel good go along to get along.

We as outdoorsman have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. If anything we have demonstrated over the last century one of if not the best example of wildlife management and conservation on the planet.

We should flaunt that and be proud.

To cower and hide our activities is to tacitly admit to undue shame and wrongdoing.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by warrior
I'm seeing something here I don't like.

Calling out other outdoors folk as obnoxious is not our problem. Matter of of fact it's this cowardice that we somehow have to hide and sneak around that has not only trappers but all that is right and correct in our society in full retreat before the onslaught of the left.

We wonder just how we lost the universities or why perversion is the rule of the day in our primary schools.

It's cowardice and feel good go along to get along.

We as outdoorsman have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. If anything we have demonstrated over the last century one of if not the best example of wildlife management and conservation on the planet.

We should flaunt that and be proud.

To cower and hide our activities is to tacitly admit to undue shame and wrongdoing.


Theres a big difference. You wanna see true cowardice? Go look at the Brit outdoors man and how they've throwing each other under the bus left and right to try and keep the antis appeased. That's NOT waht I'm talking about at All! What where talking about is something else. I'm talking about guys who have no tact what so ever in the public eye. There's a big difference in pride and " hay imma send this picture of this deer who I just head shotted to PETA because screw them bunny huggers".
Posted By: warrior

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:07 PM

Well there is no need to pick fights needlessly or insult folks. I agree there are some among us that need a good talking to or even trip to the woodshed.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:08 PM

Good post warrior. I am convinced we wont change their minds. If somebody wants to be vegan or refuses to use anything leather or fur I am fine with it.

Till they try to tell me how to live. I have yet to meet a fantasy land, rose colored glasses wearing communist that cares whether or not I am offended. I have yet to meet one that doesn't want to change the law and make me criminal.

They can pound sand and suck eggs so far as I am concerned. I will NEVER try to appease them in any fashion. People who think they need to tell me how to live are just pond scum.
Posted By: Macthediver

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:15 PM

Wolfdog91

I agree with you on so many points. What I posted above is some what meant as sarcastic.
Its not just trappers that run into what you could almost call soft anti. They are out there in all forms for everything from fishing to ATVing. On the edge of going one way or another based on one bad experience.

A lot of the problem comes from people who have a permit or stamp or license to do what ever their doing. So they go out and just run everyone and everything over.
Try running an air boat past a group of kayaks.. or even a loud mudmotor. Their are so many user group now all crammed into the same area. Everyone trying to do their thing with out being distributed or interfered with by others. Alot of it seems to me like people only caring about me mine and you are in my way.
Their is an individual who owns property on the same lake I do. He runs his very expensive ski boat with very expensive sound system around the lake. Not big deal right? There are several others with similar boats. Only this particular individual plays music while pulling skiers which is less than generally played in public setting. The F this F that.. it's not even that they play it. But I can clearly hear it from mile away. When this individual was politely asked to turn his volume down. He pretty much said F you your just jealous of my boat.
Now I'm the kind of person who would like to take my airboat. Go spin circle in front this guy property at midnight. I certainly have a right to.
But that makes me no better than him. So how do you deal with a person like that. If I was some just at the beach for the day and heard this guy. I would then think everyone with a boat like his would be the same kind of person.
So all those kind boat people are now pigeon holed as something to dislike should be ban? Right?

Their are so many people that do everything with a chip on their shoulder. Their rude and obnoxious and don't even know it or don't care. You have to sit by them at ball game. Fish by them on river. Pretty sure they are probably on the golf course. I don't play golf but I seen them while I was in the pond diving for golf balls.
That might all work fine for them in their little world. But when they interface in to a public setting. Then the issue begin.
Unfortunately the smallest users groups are first to get run over. I think us trappers unfortunately fall into a small user group. Only takes a few rude soccer mom type trappers make the rest look bad.

Mac
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by warrior
Well there is no need to pick fights needlessly or insult folks. I agree there are some among us that need a good talking to or even trip to the woodshed.

I'm not picking fights I'm just stating facts. I don't say any names or anything like that so don't know who would get insulted unless they just want to. The fact is there's people in our community who are not good reps for us and can be damaging to us. Just plain and simple. That's not an insult that's, not picking a fight, that's just plain and simple honesty. I'm 80% sure if I went to every trapper and asked if they knew another trapper hunter ect that they they think wouldn't be a good person to try and talk to the general public about trapping they would definitely have someone if they where bing honest.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:20 PM

Good post also Mark. I didnt mean to imply I condone rude behavior. Just that I am done trying to appease those who want to make me a criminal.
Posted By: warrior

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Macthediver
Wolfdog91

I agree with you on so many points. What I posted above is some what meant as sarcastic.
Its not just trappers that run into what you could almost call soft anti. They are out there in all forms for everything from fishing to ATVing. On the edge of going one way or another based on one bad experience.

A lot of the problem comes from people who have a permit or stamp or license to do what ever their doing. So they go out and just run everyone and everything over.
Try running an air boat past a group of kayaks.. or even a loud mudmotor. Their are so many user group now all crammed into the same area. Everyone trying to do their thing with out being distributed or interfered with by others. Alot of it seems to me like people only caring about me mine and you are in my way.
Their is an individual who owns property on the same lake I do. He runs his very expensive ski boat with very expensive sound system around the lake. Not big deal right? There are several others with similar boats. Only this particular individual plays music while pulling skiers which is less than generally played in public setting. The F this F that.. it's not even that they play it. But I can clearly hear it from mile away. When this individual was politely asked to turn his volume down. He pretty much said F you your just jealous of my boat.
Now I'm the kind of person who would like to take my airboat. Go spin circle in front this guy property at midnight. I certainly have a right to.
But that makes me no better than him. So how do you deal with a person like that. If I was some just at the beach for the day and heard this guy. I would then think everyone with a boat like his would be the same kind of person.
So all those kind boat people are now pigeon holed as something to dislike should be ban? Right?

Their are so many people that do everything with a chip on their shoulder. Their rude and obnoxious and don't even know it or don't care. You have to sit by them at ball game. Fish by them on river. Pretty sure they are probably on the golf course. I don't play golf but I seen them while I was in the pond diving for golf balls.
That might all work fine for them in their little world. But when they interface in to a public setting. Then the issue begin.
Unfortunately the smallest users groups are first to get run over. I think us trappers unfortunately fall into a small user group. Only takes a few rude soccer mom type trappers make the rest look bad.

Mac


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.
Posted By: Dirty D

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by warrior


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.


your right about it not being just a outdoor problem.

I don't have a problem with pushing back and not giving ground but the "pushing back, hard" is where you get my attention. Do you mean getting an opponents face and screaming yelling and name calling? If so then thats where you and I part ways my freind.
A logical calm and reasoned response along with a calm conversation will convince more than screaming and yelling. You'll also come off as a more reasonable intelligent person than one who yells and calls names.
Just what Wolfie was trying to say in his post I believe.
Posted By: mad_mike

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Macthediver
Wolfdog91

I agree with you on so many points. What I posted above is some what meant as sarcastic.
Its not just trappers that run into what you could almost call soft anti. They are out there in all forms for everything from fishing to ATVing. On the edge of going one way or another based on one bad experience.

A lot of the problem comes from people who have a permit or stamp or license to do what ever their doing. So they go out and just run everyone and everything over.
Try running an air boat past a group of kayaks.. or even a loud mudmotor. Their are so many user group now all crammed into the same area. Everyone trying to do their thing with out being distributed or interfered with by others. Alot of it seems to me like people only caring about me mine and you are in my way.
Their is an individual who owns property on the same lake I do. He runs his very expensive ski boat with very expensive sound system around the lake. Not big deal right? There are several others with similar boats. Only this particular individual plays music while pulling skiers which is less than generally played in public setting. The F this F that.. it's not even that they play it. But I can clearly hear it from mile away. When this individual was politely asked to turn his volume down. He pretty much said F you your just jealous of my boat.
Now I'm the kind of person who would like to take my airboat. Go spin circle in front this guy property at midnight. I certainly have a right to.
But that makes me no better than him. So how do you deal with a person like that. If I was some just at the beach for the day and heard this guy. I would then think everyone with a boat like his would be the same kind of person.
So all those kind boat people are now pigeon holed as something to dislike should be ban? Right?

Their are so many people that do everything with a chip on their shoulder. Their rude and obnoxious and don't even know it or don't care. You have to sit by them at ball game. Fish by them on river. Pretty sure they are probably on the golf course. I don't play golf but I seen them while I was in the pond diving for golf balls.
That might all work fine for them in their little world. But when they interface in to a public setting. Then the issue begin.
Unfortunately the smallest users groups are first to get run over. I think us trappers unfortunately fall into a small user group. Only takes a few rude soccer mom type trappers make the rest look bad.

Mac


I can relate to the “user group” conflict with the airboats. I have seen kayakers do nearly animated displays of discontent as I pass them, many hundreds of feet away, covering their ears, waving paddles and middle fingers, even paddling towards the course I am on. My solution is to just keep driving, eyes forward, and give them zero reaction. They can do and behave however they want and the only thing I have control over is myself. There have been several times when the hippy butt, tree hugging, bunny sniffin’ kayakers have been at the launch ramp when I come rolling in and see what is dead in the boat on it’s first ride. They are almost always excited to see and talk about the beaver, wolves, wolverine etc. for a while. Those conversations are usually good and from my perspective they take nothing negative away from it.
Whizz on them if they don’t like it, cool if they do. I will do me and continue to try and be decent you do you.
Posted By: warrior

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty D
Originally Posted by warrior


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.


your right about it not being just a outdoor problem.

I don't have a problem with pushing back and not giving ground but the "pushing back, hard" is where you get my attention. Do you mean getting an opponents face and screaming yelling and name calling? If so then thats where you and I part ways my freind.
A logical calm and reasoned response along with a calm conversation will convince more than screaming and yelling. You'll also come off as a more reasonable intelligent person than one who yells and calls names.
Just what Wolfie was trying to say in his post I believe.


No need for screaming. But definitely setting boundaries and penalizing those who won't stay on there side.
Posted By: 20scout

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 04:47 PM

We have lots of expensive lake homes around my area and on occasion get a call about beavers cutting down someone's trees on their expensive lake shore. Had one such call a few years back just like this. Unfortunately in order to gain access to the colony I had to cross another person's property. I introduced myself and in a professional manner explained my situation. When I asked if I could get permission she declined saying they love to watch the beaver swim buy in the early morning or evenings. And it wasn't her problem if others didn't like them. Being so limited I did manage to catch a few to satisfy my client but knew there where more. Fast forward a few years and low and behold got a call from the property owner who declined me permission. She explained that the (this word is unacceptable on trapman.com) beaver where now cutting her expensive lakeshore trees and that I needed to get rid of them by any means. Unfortunately the damage was done and it was an expensive lesson for here but she now understands the importance of management. She is also a member of the lakes association and has become a great supporter for management. Funny how no o e seems to care about other people's critter problems until they experience similar problems.
Posted By: mike mason

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 05:23 PM

Lost cause don't waste you time.
Posted By: hippie

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by white dog

Conversation instead of confrontation. Developing rapport is an essential component when trying to influence thoughts. Or at least that’s my experience.

Convincing someone that something is ethical and morally right is much more important than telling them you have a legal right. The simple solution if someone uses the legal right argument is to change the law. We have seen many examples of that over the past 40 years.


Yep, that what I can't get into alot of trappers heads. They'll do something that gets Karen up in flames and can't understand why she's still mad when they explain something is legal to do. Theirs 100 upon thousands of things that are legal to do but just plain ain't right so that's a crappy argument.



Dog, there are crass people in all walks of life and I don't think any of us dispute there are in trapping. Are you going to convince every trapper to have feelings for antis and talk softly around them? Nope.

Will all antis try to see your sweet talk and consider it? Nope.

It is in our interest to be discrete in our activities, without a doubt. Living in a state that has probably 10x the the trappers than most states and learning the trade during the boom years of the '70s, one learned quick to do your business Incognito or your catch wasn't there the next day. That same works for avoiding antis.

And IMO, what most here call an anti isn't going to give you time to woo them with sweet talk, your dealing with a fence rider if they listen to your spiel.

The point your trying to make is good, but like a couple said, I wouldn't demonize the vast majority of trappers over a few.
Posted By: Wolfdog91

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 07:19 PM

Seems alot of y'all are missing key points I've tried to make....
Posted By: white dog

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 09:17 PM


Wolfdog, My suggestion is to attend or work a trapping booth at a public event. I think you’ll find trappers who are far more interested in informing people than confronting them. Other than a few hard core antis you’ll find many people who may not walk away supporting trapping but there is a chance they won’t be vocal opponents.
Posted By: Aix sponsa

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/14/22 09:41 PM

Very important topic you brought up, and I think you did a great job mentioning why it’s important not to push it, not everyone is an extremist, and so on. I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a mistake to intentionally irritate those that are just regular everyday citizens that just happen to disagree with what we do based on their limited knowledge of what we do. Those are the ones we “might” get to stand with us, but we definitely need them to not stand against us. Intentionally posting gore, injury photos, etc just to try trolling them is a sure fire way to get on the road to losing our way of life.



It is imperative that we choose our words carefully, even in casual conversation, because the wrong words being used to describe our equipment or methods is potentially harmful to our cause. Remember, the people WE talk to might be reasonable, but if they then talk about our conversations, we want them to use the right words. In my opinion, trappers need to stop using words like “DROWNERS” and “leg holds” because it plays right into the antis hands. Submersion rigs and footholds are a much better choice of words to describe these tools.


Also, I think it’s a mistake to apologize for fur trapping in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Sure, we’ll get other uses from the animal when we can, but never, ever make it sound like there’s something wrong simply fur trapping. It’s something to be proud of, never to be ashamed of. Being soft on front gives the antis a serious foothold. Think about it, if they get a Trapper to say it’s wrong to fur trap, then that allows them to say “Look! Even trappers say that if an animal isn’t being a documented nuisance animal then there’s no reason to trap it!” —-not something we need.

Fur trapping is part of this Great Nation’s history, an incredibly important part of its history I might add, as well as fur products being a durable, renewable resource that will keep people warm for decades not weeks.


Another point to key in on is the fact that sportsmen and women support conservation by their purchases and license sales. You’re right, we can love animals AND hunt, fish, and trap.



Overall, I think you did a good job explaining your message, I just wanted to mention a few things.


Keep spreading the word buddy
Posted By: 52Carl

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/15/22 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Seems alot of y'all are missing key points I've tried to make....

Me thinks that you would be more successful in changing the minds of folks who don't know the truth about what trapping is all about, than convincing a significant percentage of the trappers visiting this site (not the majority of them, but a higher percentage than I am comfortable with). That, to me is sad.
But then again, if one is not skilled in communication with others of different backgrounds, one should probably not engage in any discussion with them.
We, as trappers, would be better off if they did not.
Personally, I have been successful with the most anti of the antis, talking them off the ledge concerning trapping and other controversial wildlife management techniques. I'm talking about ladies who were not able to talk to me without sobbing the entire time.
The key to turning them around to think rationally was allow them to speak their piece without interruption no matter how absurd their points were. They have a lot to get off their chest. You must allow them to do so without interrupting. I repeated this because it is that important.
Once they began to repeat themselves, that was my clue to politely step in and ask them if I could share me personal opinion on this matter.
Surprisingly they would say, "Why, of course."
I can then casually give my take on why I must do what I have to do.
Listening to their side of the story was painful to listen to, but listening to them was key for us to actually have a dialog, and since I had the advantage of the truth, It went my way. I have to admit that I was not expecting to make any headway with any of these instances, and was shocked that I got through to them.
Posted By: Mark K

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/15/22 03:30 AM

The best way for an anti to be converted is to have a group of beaver cut their thousands of dollars worth of trees the first night they are planted.
Posted By: white dog

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/15/22 03:34 AM

A true anti would pay you to remove them and continue to condemn the hobbie trappers who fur trap.
Posted By: 52Carl

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mark K
The best way for an anti to be converted is to have a group of beaver cut their thousands of dollars worth of trees the first night they are planted.

I had an anti lady converted overnight due to a huge oak almost hitting her million dollar home felled by a beaver. Her husband told me to "kill them all" as per her wishes. So I did.
Posted By: TrapperDR

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 01:52 AM

There is a long game and a short game to trapping fur. Many people fall into the short game and lose sight of how to keep this industry alive. Trapping became important because of industrialization of the time. It has now lost traction because of the same nature. Like most trends it will become import again with the right circumstances.

The "new thinkers and adventures" of the times made trapping a life style. It wasn't the old timers and non adventures who were fur traders. Those on here who despise a new way of thinking or finding adventure really don't pay homage to how (our) tradition came of importance and will likely be an end to it whether they understand their impact or not.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:07 AM

Today you will have to hire out for damage control. Meet someone elses expectations. I have a real hard time with that. Selling fur you can work as hard or as little as you want to. Dont have to make anyone else happy. That working to make a customer happy kinda sours trapping for me.
Posted By: TrapperDR

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:16 AM

That statement isn't correct Danny. You can still sell fur regardless, you just have made up your mind that selling fur doesn't meet your expectations, which is fine. I wouldn't give up my job to make a living off of trapping right now either but regardless you still have the choice.
Posted By: Drifter

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:20 AM

Want to reach a lot of folks? Help your area boy scouts do as Trailblazers event. I was lucky and attended one when I was in Illinois. The parents that came along were as interested as the scouts. We had taxidermy mounts as well as tanned fur for them to handle as well as see. There are a ton of folks that are on the fence or even could care less one way or the other. We had over 500 that day.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:24 AM

You mean I think trapperDR, you can give it away. Why should you let someone else make money on a commodity your taking a loss on?????????

Anti's ARE the #1 reason there is no fur market. All this talk about trapping even at a loss infuriates soccer moms. They don't like people who kill for fun. You can crawdad and say well its to benefit the species as a whole or to protect my sweet corn or the neighbors calves. Don't matter. She already heard you say "I kill for fun". She will roll up in a petroleum derived garment so fast your head will spin and vote to stop you from legally harvesting fur.
Posted By: TrapperDR

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by danny clifton
You mean I think trapperDR, you can give it away. Why should you let someone else make money on a commodity your taking a loss on?????????

Anti's ARE the #1 reason there is no fur market. All this talk about trapping even at a loss infuriates soccer moms. They don't like people who kill for fun. You can crawdad and say well its to benefit the species as a whole or to protect my sweet corn or the neighbors calves. Don't matter. She already heard you say "I kill for fun". She will roll up in a petroleum derived garment so fast your head will spin and vote to stop you from legally harvesting fur.


No I don't believe in giving away anything unless it's for charity. I simply mean in times of supply and demand everyone has a choice. You can either choose to work hard for more and make less or work for a difference means of income. Either way the choice is still there. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you work or had worked in the trucking industry. Had the pay been too low for you to value your rates in that industry you would have chosen another avenue.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:36 AM

Trapper DR you dont make less when cost of production is higher than the price of the commodity, you lose money.
Posted By: TrapperDR

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:45 AM

Danny that's a no brainer and I don't believe either of us are disagreeing. That wasn't my point and I won't ever argue logic. My disagreement is: There is a choice "to those who find a way" to make money on fur in today's fur market and they are probably doing it "creatively", however the money is there for those for the taking. It's just not easy money. Which is exactly what the fur industry was built on.
Posted By: Mark June

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by warrior
I'm seeing something here I don't like.

Calling out other outdoors folk as obnoxious is not our problem. Matter of of fact it's this cowardice that we somehow have to hide and sneak around that has not only trappers but all that is right and correct in our society in full retreat before the onslaught of the left.

We wonder just how we lost the universities or why perversion is the rule of the day in our primary schools.

It's cowardice and feel good go along to get along.

We as outdoorsman have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. If anything we have demonstrated over the last century one of if not the best example of wildlife management and conservation on the planet.

We should flaunt that and be proud.

To cower and hide our activities is to tacitly admit to undue shame and wrongdoing.


Now this is a strong post!
Yesindeedee.

Blessings,
Mark
Posted By: white dog

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 04:43 AM

Warrior, how many trappers do you personally know that cower and hide their activities? I don’t know anyone who does that unless they are hiding their activities from other trappers.
Posted By: danny clifton

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" - 05/16/22 11:17 AM

Getting back on track for converting anti's

Quote
Anti's ARE the #1 reason there is no fur market. All this talk about trapping even at a loss infuriates soccer moms. They don't like people who kill for fun. You can crawdad and say well its to benefit the species as a whole or to protect my sweet corn or the neighbors calves. Don't matter. She already heard you say "I kill for fun". She will roll up in a petroleum derived garment so fast your head will spin and vote to stop you from legally harvesting fur.


A Young Mom working hard to keep her kids fed and clothed, will understand making money while benefitting populations, making sure sweet corn in the garden is protected, keeping calf and sheep losses down. They get that. Killing that cute fox because you enjoy killing them? Well just think about that for a minute. Imagine you grew up in a city watching disney movies and believing the city park is the "great outdoors"'.

We need to quit alienating people on the fence. Unlike changing the mind of an anti, nudging a fence sitter to our side of the fence is doable. Telling that person "I kill for fun" will flop em right over to a PETA membership.
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