40 minutes.....

Seems the initial responders were there very quickly and retreated after a short gun battle to wait for swat, while they waited they broke windows and evacuated students while hearing the shooting going on in the classroom of death. Now, I was not here but this sure sounds disgraceful.

(unsure of original source)
This is a clip from a Newsmax article. How the shooter was left alone in the building for roughly 40 minutes is completely unacceptable and I don’t know how anyone could argue any different.
“Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said it was “within 40 minutes or so" from when Ramos opened fire on the school security officer and when the SWAT-like Border Patrol team shot him.”

That is unacceptable. They will say they are following some policy.

But, I would take the loss of my job, I’d have engaged the target.

Retreat , I just got here..

The Border Patrol agent that put a stop to it went right in without backup.

A real hero.

Not good !

If true. Absolutely unacceptable.

In 40 minutes parents would have been there rushing in to kill the

Nice !

The resource officer engaged him as he entered the building, where did he go when this guy entered the classroom?

My understanding is after the shooter wounded the sro 4 officers responded very quickly briefly engaged and withdrew. They waited for backup while he shot the kids....40 minutes.
The border patrol tac team arrived and ended it fast.

That is the best info I have right now.

I didn't hear that the sro got wounded just that he engaged him. Thanks

I have looked into this some more and cannot confirm the sro was wounded, my bad.

You got that right. Didn't wait on backup and took care of business.
According to the kids grandfather he was a felon and should not have been able to purchase a gun. News is reporting that the guns were purchased legally soon after the nut turned 18. According to the grandfather the kid didn't even have a driver's license.
Extremely sad. School and church is supposed to be safe places. Unfortunately they seem to be the most vulnerable places.

Grandpa was the felon not the kid

Where was the kid's father ?

A murderer left alone for 40 minutes while he was killing kids with armed LE on the scene?

My plan if it happens here is to drive my pick up through the double doors out front they keep locked now. Keep locked I guess to slow down any rescue? It doesn't curtail murderers.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, that I see being done or being recommended by the gun grabbers or the promote more armed citizens crowd either one, makes any sense at all. I think school shootings are being encouraged.

Story from the AP. Waited outside

None of this matters. It is the gun's fault.

Anyone else see musk's tweet about "assault rifles"? Is he ignorant or just that clever?

Ol'dad

We had a shooter in a local high school a few years back.

SRO Blaine Gaskill didn't wait.



Headline:
Lone resource officer's quick action stopped the Maryland school shooter within seconds...

Sounds like Blaine Gaskill should be held up as an example to all of us.

The article drifter linked said people were urging LE to go in. Its amazing no civilian did either.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...mp;cvid=453ff5773ea049c1902ad610674497cc

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” said Javier Cazares. “More could have been done.” Cazares lost his fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, in the attack. “They were unprepared,” he said.

so the type of gun matters not at all Jbyrd if you have 40 minutes after a brief exchange with the SRO , wound the sro on the way in

Just disgraceful behavior.....burns me to the core.

News this morning said one officer claimed they were waiting for a school administrator to unlock a door for them. I thought WTH???? How could you say that even if it was true??

I don’t think anyone knows how they will react when the balls actually start flying but this was ridiculous. They now bumped it up to an hour that this idiot was in the school. Shameful.

It's always easy to Monday morning quarterback deals like this. Everyone expects that others will respond and react as they would or think they would.
It hard to believe that trained officers would not just rush in. But it happens.. Thing is no one ever knows how they will react until they are the one in a high stress situation.
There are thousands of videos with less stressful events taking place. Will see dozens of people standing doing nothing but watching.
Bad deal all way around for everyone.

Mac

Mac, Do you know anyone that if armed would not have helped the children? I am willing to bet my wife would have after the first scream.

Most accurate post i've seen yet....

Very correct.

I bet the classroom had windows. Locked door is a cop out.

Now I hear that 40 cops were outside waiting for an hour.

If only they had some way to knock down the doors like when the do a no knock raid ir some way to bust the glass of a window.

Funny a mental case managed to get in but locked doors suddenly stop the cops?

I agree, like I said above no one knows how they will react until the balls are flying. However, how you react has consequences. I would expect heavy criticism if I stood outside for an hour or something like that was going on. Shameful, then act like it was a locked door that kept you out. If this plays out like it looks there should be dereliction of duty charges or something like that. Unbelievable.

All right Mac the diver. You are right. Except there were a LOT of people there.

I told the story about stopping a man that was beating a woman outside a restaurant some years back. A big crowd was watching right outside the door. They had called the sheriff and a pair of deputy's was on the way. They just watched. I saw it driving down the road. I get upset thinking about that too. Turns out the deputies knew the guy. Asked if I was willing to testify. I said sure but didnt have to. I think he pled guilty. turns out the woman was the restaurant cook. For years after if I ate there I wasn't allowed to pay.

Ok so everyday people are shocked and uncertain what to do. Fine. But L.E.? You would think a few of them would grit their teeth, push down their fear, and go in. Its kids for goodness sake.

I think there is something going on behind the scene.

Well I'm glad that everyone has their plan. No way to know if it will work until your turn to show us. I'd say I'm praying for you that it never happens. But it's not my thing.

Mac

I might be misunderstanding you Mac. Are you saying someone shouldn’t be criticized for being a cowered because the one criticizing might end up being a cowered some day too?

God holds accountable the father of his children and how he raises them .

While he is not responsible for his son's sins he will have to answer to God for the up bringing of his son or the lack there of .

Where is the father ? , was this another direct result of the family unit break down ?

Why was this kid a freak ?

The demonic spirit within him had no resistance .

Who gets to define a what a coward is? Webster?

I don't know what those officers were thinking or how they are trained. It's very obvious there was some failures in their approach to the situation. Not every person in any jobs will work outside of direct supervision. Not every one just rushed in takes initiative. Been there seen it.
What I tire of are the people who know how it all should have been done. When they were not the ones there. You can yadda yadda should done this should done that. I'd have done this they should have done that.. guess easy to just say they were cowards.. Right!
I don't know maybe they all are just wannabees peed their pants when first shot was fired... Kids paid the price for them to learn that the jobs not for them.
Those guys that were there going to have to live with their decisions. Right or wrong.

I can honestly say I think they dropped the ball.
That said.
Until your the one holding the ball it isn't really up to you which way to run.

Mac

Product of our times more so than high stress situations. Yes there are a few that freeze up under that kind of situation but I guarantee that if something like this happened 50 years ago the majority of men would have donr whatever they could to save those kids. People are 10x softer morally and mentally today than in past generations.

How many times have cops gone charging into a volatile situation only to have something bizarre go wrong, then they end up getting sued or going to prison. Not defending their actions here, but sometimes it's a no-win situation.

Play the devils advocate all u want Mac but anyone on the scene with a weapon that stood by and attempted nothing let those kids down PERIOD despite any excuses one might come up with. If your armed and children are being murdered while u do nothing I'll make the call and say coward.
I'll also add Mac u don't have to be in that situation to know what the "right" thing to do is. Will everyone have the guts to do it .... no..... but because they can't bring themselves to do it doesn't make their actions or lack of actions right....

You may not be defending them per say but ur making excuses for them.

There are worse things than death. Standing by and doing nothing while kids are being killed would be one of them. How could one live with themselves knowing they are alive because they did nothing while kids were being killed? I can not imaging not going in even if I was to know that I would be facing certain death.

I'd go in. Don't really see a choice... How would I face myself in the mirror after listening to 40 minutes of carnage knowing I did nothing?

Mike

In 40 minutes he could have killed them with a machete, didn't need a gun. Its not the guns fault. When it comes down to it the school was a soft target, and he was a coward.

I heard they’re going to start hiring again soon. By then everybody should know more facts. Social media is as unreliable as the mainstream media.

It was war and evil won. Evil prevails when good men do nothing

That was flat-out immoral. Their job is to protect the citizens, not to sit back and watch them die because you're a yellow-bellied-chicken-liver. To heck with 'protocol' when lives are at stake.

Just consider what it would be like being outside listening to the carnage and not able to do anything because the socialists have taken your guns away….

https://twitter.com/paleofuture/status/1529652093354536961?s=27&t=-mOkpw7Ajg_IvdpHiMQSiQ

I don’t plan on running my mouth to the point that I’m flagged. It’s going to take a long time to take them away if you aren’t at the top of the list.

My mother always gave good advice. I was told “ people who talk to much usually end up getting what they wanted”.

that is sad

understand that time and time again the supreme court has upheld the police have no duty to protect

2 officers stand and watch a murder through a subway window then after the person they saw stabbing the other leaves they go in and provide medical assistance. no violation of duty.

this right here is why we have the 2nd amendment and why we need to keep out guns and carry them , the police have no duty to protect , most will step up when the time comes but there is no legal duty to protect

they can also make the argument they have to secure the scene

not just a specific SWAT or ERT needs to be trained but every officer , the thing is they have been defunded slowly and the first thing to go in funding is typically specialized training.
I don't have all the details and there could have been a team inside already , we will see as the after action break down happens

people have to also be willing to spend the money on both education and putting protective measures in place

statistically these shootings happen so infrequently even though we are told 27 this year by some media sources the reality is those are shootings near schools used to bump numbers and not actual school shootings. this appears to be the 2nd one this year to fit the mass definition used by the FBI in the past.

with 49 million of students 14 is a less than 1 in one millions if it was your kid it is the most important 1 in 50 million

really since we had seen fewer in 2019 , 2020 and 2021 we actually hadn't a Mass shooting event at a school since 2018 , why , because in the years 2016,17 ,18 19 most were stopped before they got to Mass. that further detuired actors form acting.

That was disgusting

Several local cops went in to save their kids while not engaging shooter as he killed other kids and police held other parents back from entering the school.

If the fire department did the same thing, most people would want new firefighters... And they darn sure wouldn't want to volunteer to give up their fire extinguishers.

Mike

Sounds like a cartel hit. Border Patrol agents kids at school, slow police response time, and campaign rhetoric for their open boarders enablers.

Lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on but nobody knows what they would or could do in a real situation. There's lots of cops that are cops because they failed at everything else or do it in the name of equality.

A niece says in the state of NE there are usually 3000 graduates a year going into teaching. This year there are 300. Everyone is looking for a stay at home computer job. David City NE has a teaching position and they got one application. They took a job in their hometown instead. In a few years there won't be teachers.

Police training today calls for ideally 4 officers to enter an active shooting situation. You would enter in a diamond pattern and the only objective was to neutralize the threat. If you did not have 4 officers you are trained to enter anyway and again the goal is to neutralize the threat before anything else. Years ago we were trained to secure the scene and wait for a team to arrive. That training and policy is obsolete. I dont know if officers waited or not but waiting should not have even crossed their minds. God be with the victims and the families.

I am wondering why they are taking so long to release the details ? My guess is everyone involved has to figure out how to cover their butt.
If the 40 minute wait is true, then law enforcement and other so called authorities have learned nothing from Columbine, Sandy Hook etc..

I haven't read thru all the pages of this thread, but.....

..as an officer that has went thru active shooter training I can add this: the LE guidelines for an active ahooter response changed with the Columbine shooting.

We were told that if you are the 1st responding officer on scene then you go to the sound of gunfire amd attempt to neutralize the threat. YOU DONT WAIT FOR BACKUP OR SPECIAL TEAMS.

We were also advised that if we felt we couldnt do this then we needed to get out of LE.

This was/is a federally-backed training that all/most agencies should have completed since its inception. Georgia GWs did it about 8 or 9 years ago.

The active shooter training we attended was held at an empty 5 story college dorm building. We used simunitions (paintball) with LE having blue paint and "bad guy(s)" having red. It was 4 days of training that was intense. Heading up those stairs towards gunshots, screaming, and shouting has a way of causing some very high heart rates and tunnel vision. Many of the scenarios resulted in very close quarters gun battles.....almost sticking the barrel to em....and the bad guy doing the same. Some scenarios were single perps...others had multiple perps shooting at you.

Wait till you see the videos of the local cops holding the parents back from trying to save their kids. Tackled one dad and cops have tazers drawn.....then the reports of some cops going in to get their own kids while the parents were held back. What a mess and they will try to play it all off....investigate themselves and find nothing wrong.

It's almost like a high body count n is the desired result.

I hear also 18 wounded in addition to the dead.

Regardless of the amount of training, nobody is ever ready for something like this. Everyone reacts differently, and I doubt the LEOs in that little town had trained for that scenario.

4+million police budget in that little town. They have a cool Facebook post/picture of the swat team all dressed up....

I stand corrected. I'm betting there will be some .discussion at the next school board meeting and city council meeting

Doesn't change what the right thing to do is one bit

I did not intend to be harsh. Just steamed right now.

IT is all about trying to take our guns. It's an anti-gun agenda. They're trying blow up these events & twist things and put the blame on the guns. What we should be focused on is the DISTURBED INDIVIDUALS who do such things.

https://youtu.be/UHnhcGZwtZQ

I cant watch that video. Makes heart hurt

X2

Says the after-the-fact-quarterback.

Understood.

Gary right is right whether it's before or after it doesn't mater. You want to start calling names or personal attacks find address and we can meet
There's the right thing to do then there's excuses. I'm pointing out what's the right thing to do is and ur making excuses.

Watch the video of 6 cops physical detaining a dad from going in and moms begging them to go on but waiting 40 min while kids are being killed sure makes it easy to after rthe fact quarter back. O ya the dad's daughter was killed.

I'm a dad cops would have to kill me to stop me from getting to my family. They would rather do that than go in and face a shooter it seems.

I'm mad it looks like they are cowards to me. 6 on one to keep a dad from trying to get to his kid but to scared
to go after a shooter.. easy to know what's the right thing to do when you have morals and are a man. I don't know how they will live with themselves or stay in that community.

Anyone dose not like my assessment and takes offense put you big boy panties on. And if anyone wants my address just pm me. I can see you some eggs I will even meet you half way.

Man this crap is an emotional mess. Angry and sad all at the same time. Hope it never happens again but wishing if it does its close enough to my area I can stop it or die trying. What a mess. Cowards.

Ditto.

Mike

My current employer has a policy prohibiting employees from bringing firearms onto the grounds. We're somewhere around 450-500 employees presently and I know of several people in my small circle who pay no attention to the policy. They carry firearms in their vehicles daily whether they're at work or not.

My last employer had 150 employees and their policy on firearms on the premises was to keep them safely stowed and out of sight.

Some of you older Alaska guys might remember the Anchorage Daily News shooting where a guy went in the pressroom looking to kill. He came looking to kill three coworkers who had been giving him a hard time. I worked there and knew two of the intended victims well. He got one of the three before he was subdued.

I'm ever aware of my surroundings and don't intend to stand idly by and watch carnage unfold if I'm capable of doing something to stop it.

Knowing myself a I do, I think I would fly into a rage if anyone tried to hold me back while some lunatic went about massacring innocent kids. It's a sick world we're living in.

Flex those keyboard muscles! Ohhhh.

Run ur key board mouth

OK folks enough of the threats. Give it a rest.