If an atheist went to heaven

I wonder what his/her first thoughts would be upon arrival? Would it be “Wow, was I wrong?” I know, some of you will say an atheist can’t get to heaven. But I believe anybody that lives a good life here on earth can make it to the promised land.

I've always heard being a good person and living a good life ain't good enough. You have to be a believer, they say.

You are eternally dead wrong.

I am the way, the truth, the life.

Either He was absolutely eternally correct or a madman.

I know that if one who does not know God were to see God he or she would know an indescribable fear and shame.

I know this because I was one who knew Him not and I have met my Lord and Savior.

You don't even have to live a good life. Hitler could be in 'heaven'.

He could be but not likely. "You know a tree by its fruit."- Jesus

Theoretically but highly unlikely.

However, were an Omniscient God in His infinite wisdom were to make it so just who in the hades are we to argue?

God gives me life one day at a time and a holy spirit to help guide me through each day, so I don't spend a lot of time projecting what the after life will be like and who else is either there or not there.Pretty typical human activity for us to try and insert our egos into God's plan.

Bryce

One of my favorite professors Dr. John Hannah often told us in seminary that if by Grace, he makes it to heaven he's sure he'll be surprised by three things;

1. Who's there
2. Who's not there
3. That he's there

I really enjoy that from one of the world's leading historical theologians whose still teaching and preaching after 60 + years.
He graduated from DTS in 1962 I believe.

Blessings,
Mark

Why not?

If God, as you opine, interceeded in every aspect of human existence to offer pure utopia would it be a life? Or would you just be a pet rat?

If you never experienced evil why would you seek God?

It's an age old question and squalling not fair like a five year old isn't the answer.

They will tell you it is free will. Then they will tell you 'god has a plan for you'.

We’re saved by faith with God’s grace. Works have nothing to do with it.

I really believe to get to heaven it is how you treat your fellow man. If you treat them with evil like Hitler, it is doubtful you will get there. It has nothing to do if you go church or not and other things religions may tell us.

Why does evil exist, why is there pain and suffering, If God is a good God why does he allow bad to happen?

Well, if everything worked out well with no evil, no suffering, etc. then we would be living in a heavenly state of being. Mankind was originally in that position, but we chose to extradite our selves for that heavenly state because of our rebellion.

Now back to the original question;
If an unbeliever showed up in heaven I think they would be pretty nervous and terrified. I have a friend who told me he thinks he will get to heaven because he's a relatively good guy. I reminded him: I said, "Corey, you hate getting close to a church, the couple of times you've been to church you get very uncomfortable and nervous. Now picture how you would feel in heaven. If you see God walking your direction you'll be looking for the first tree to hide behind". Corey agreed with me that heaven would probably not be an enjoyable place for him.

Atheist will never see heaven. Being a good person doesn't cut it. You can't deny God while living and expect to see the promised land when dead.

Va you nailed it The title would never happen. Where and when he will say he was wrong is on his judgement day when he will be cast into the lake of fire!

I don't believe there's an atheist on earth, much less heaven. Atheist are just people who have no interest in allowing God in their life. It's not an intellectual hurdle, it's a sin hurdle.

Everyone places their faith somewhere in this life.
There are no exceptions to that philosophy.

Let's not forget the definition of a god is >>>>> the ability to determine what is good and what is evil.
So if we get to decide what we think is "good" and what is not, especially as it pertains to eternal consequence, we're taking on a role we were never meant to have.
Playing god.
God is God and we humans are not, but since we're broken and think our way of walking by sight is best, questions and comments like, "good people get to go to heaven," come up often.
Define good?

When standing at the Great White Throne, the unregenerate can make their bet case to God the Son, as to how they think things shoulda been and how things should be going forward.

I always remember the God's response to Job in the Book of Job, where God has listened to Job, who never quit worshipping God throughout unthinkable calamity of wealth, family, and health (who has every reason to lament);

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding." Job 38:1–4.

Blessings,
Mark

If you could get to heaven by doing good things, then Jesus' death was for nothing. There was no reason for Jesus to die, if you could just do a bunch of good stuff to earn your way.
Also, if you could earn your way into heaven by doing good things, that would mean that God "owes" you something.

Loose for the sake of debate How did the people get to heaven before Jesus died ? If your statement is true than what was there path?
Does the Bible teach us that we “earn “ our rewards in heaven
I think I know the answer but love to hear others interpretation

loosegoose mentioned it, but seems like no one else has.....Jesus is the son of God and he died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven. We must believe this in our hearts. HE is the way, the truth, and the life.

Just where is the line between being a "Good Person" and a Devout Christian"? Asking because Im always a day late and a dollar short.

By faith looking foward.

See my post above ^^^

The beginning and the end of this discussion is about "Justice". When they sinned in the garden God had told them they would die. Still yet he dressed them with the animal skin signifying the shedding of blood (the life or soul is in the blood). God is not bound by His own laws but was honoring the blood for blood law. Adam died, the only Justice would be for a blood for blood sacrifice for him as he was in his original condition when he was made. The shedding of animals blood was a substitute for the coming of a Second Adam which was of equal value of the first Adam. Justice is trading for like kind. Up until the Second Adam gave the ultimate sacrifice they practiced and showed their faith with the animal sacrifice believing unto the coming of the actual sacrifice. Since they couldn't go to Heaven without the ransom being paid they went to Abraham's bosom that being the highest place in the underworld (Hades). They were not forgotten and the Second Adam did come and fulfill the law and bring them out.


The Second Adam came and stayed in His original condition (sinless and with out flaw) such as the first Adam was made. He gave blood for blood and life for life for Adam and his pitiful heirs. Thus covering our sin as the animal skin in the Garden signified. Now we partake in Communion looking for His coming back.
After His coming back and the believers will be taken out and there will be a millennium period in which the animal sacrifice will be reinstated as in Ezekiel. That will be because there will be children still being born during that time and they will be looking and believing back with the animal blood sacrifice much the same as those Old Test Saints were looking and believing forward.
That scripture is a stumbling block for the animal lovers. They will say there is no need for the animal sacrifice, thus showing they do not believe Ezekiel and his prophecy.

The way to Heaven has been paid, its my personal belief God will not make someone who rejects the sacrifice go against their will kicking and screaming to Heaven not wanting to go.

I know I've covered a lot of ground and only hit the high spots and indulged more in justification than regeneration and sanctification, so feel free to comment in any way.

This is one of those things that really does not keep me up at night

Joy comes in the morning.

No matter what anyone of us says, it is all speculation.

Romans 4 talks about that exact issue. It talks about how Abraham trusted God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and, Abraham's righteousness came before circumcision, not after. In other words, circumcision was a sign of his righteousness and faith, meaning to he good works came as a result of faith. Romans 4 also talks about how, if good works save us, out "wages" (eternal salvation) are not credited to us as a gift, but as an obligation.

The bible does teach that we warm rewards in heaven, it seems to talk about the "greatest " and the "least in heaven". But earning various rewards in heaven is a separate issue from being gifted a trip to heaven in the first place.

Unless the Creator gave a an owners manual for our walk on earth and sent us a representative to teach us his plan.
Ask yourself why the disciples chose to put themselves through the things they went through? It wasn't for money or power or fame. Maybe it was because they seen the truth. Only reasonable explanation I can come up with. When you create a goal for your children do you keep it a secret and not share it with them and expect them to achieve it without any knowledge of what the goal is? I doubt our Creator and Heavenly father would do it either.

A atheist would not make it. The Bible tells you even Jesus Christ tells you read John 14:6.the last line BY ME.

Are you saying no matter how good of a life an atheists lives they will rot in the same he** as Hitler and other extremely horrible beings are doing time. If a 10 year kid doesn’t believe in God, will God condemn him to an eternity of horror.

You live, then you die. Done deal same as a coon. No use wasting time hoping for more every Sunday. You have one short life so use it wisely.

Are you saying no matter how good of a life an atheists lives they will rot in the same he** as Hitler and other extremely horrible beings are doing time. If a 10 year kid doesn’t believe in God, will God condemn him to an eternity of horror. [/quot

Yes I am! This is about FAITH NOT GOOD WORKS. Christ has done the last good work by giving his life going to the cross. Otherwise if a person can do good work then Jesus could of bypassed the cross.
Kids don't get judge by Christ to they reach the age to know between good and bad.

Doesn't seem to be any justification for any kind of morality if that's the case. If it benefits u and u want to do it and u can get away with it why not go for it? Live life to the fullest. That's how animals live.

Everyone knows John 3:16, you can't watch a ballgame without seeing it, that's as far as they read. Keep reading down through verse 21. Modern American Christianity has only painted half the picture. God is indeed a God of love but He is angry with wicked every day. Who are the wicked?

Faith is an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, the Catholic Church says the age of reason is seven years old and anything they do after that age is to be judged by God as good, bad or evil. So I guess the 10 year old atheist I mentioned is condemned to doom and gloom. By the way, I believe in God.

Everyone has their own beliefs and I don't knock anyone for believing in anything they want. I went to a catholic school for 8 years and honestly it pushed me further away than anything. I do appreciate the guys on here that are by the book because if you believe in something it should be a strict belief. My personal experience with the catholic church I belonged to and the archdiocese of st.louis is that they are willing to bend and change their beliefs and rules to keep people coming. I also think it has to do with this world getting softer and softer I don't think the kids of today would stick around for the old school stuff. I steered away because I won't stand for change in the church it is what it is or it's not at all. You are in or you are out but you have to believe in it in the first place. I personally would be fine with going to the earth.

Grandpa Trapper

If I may ask where do u find the beliefs or truths about God that you hold to?

The Devils believes in God also so what does that prove?

So would you Christians be angry, or at least dissapointed, if God let good atheists and other good people who though Jesus Christ was just another fairy tale, into heaven?

Keith

No. My preference would b that everyone made it there.

I believe a Supreme Being started all this and there is a heaven but not necessary the other place. I personally don’t know who is right about religion but don’t preach to me that you (not you personally but people in general) are right because they don’t know just like I don’t know.

Buy a Bible and read it yourself or go to a Bible believing church and ask the pastor to explain it and show you were it is in the Bible.

Thanks for the reply. I do believe the Creator sent his word to us through the Holy Scripture and the Christ. As my earlier post eluted to I don't think he would create us and not give a blueprint of how to live our lives or know the truth.

I'm assuming based of your post you really don't hold to any truths about the after life and what is to come? I'm assuming this because u said u don't know and neither does anyone else. By some of your statements like a good atheist getting into Heaven and there being a Heaven I'm thinking that you are finding these beliefs somewhere. I'm just wondering where? Are you coming up with them yourself or are they just someone else teachings that you believe or a combination of things? I do believe it's good that all of are asking these questions and that we search to find the answers. Maybe it is put on our heart to ask these questions for a reason.

If this Supreme Being made this earth and a Heaven that we all get into why not just make this earth Heaven from the get go?

Guss, I think there are things in the Bible that are metaphors or symbolic and not actual occurrences. For example, Noah’s Ark. I don’t think it would be physically possible to do what he did including building a boat that huge and gathering and storing all that feed for every animal on earth. How did he get all the animals across the oceans including in North America to come aboard? How did he clean the ship of the mess with thousands of animals onboard. Did he get every micro organism, insects. etc, on the ship. As far as Adam and Eve, something else had to happen in their situation. The first creatures considered humans such as Cro-Magnon Man and Neanderthals were not very pretty and I doubt God made himself in their image. Since Adam and Eve are considered the first humans, they could have not come after these prehistoric humans unless they were them.

Your thinking with your natural mind, God can use anything or anyone,after all he made earth,sun,moon,stars nothing hard for him to do.

Not for me to judge anyone. I will leave that up to the Lord. I always think of the two thieves one on each side of Jesus as he was crucified. One cursed the lord. While the other asked for forgiveness. That explains to me a lot about the Love and Mercy of God.

You maybe right.

As long as I made it that would be fine with me lol. However, God would have to change the rules for that to happen.

Maybe because God (G) made us in his image??

Quite an interesting thread.

Liberal theologians (discussion of God - which this thread is) in recent centuries are defined as those who agree that certain parts of Scripture are true while discounting other portions.
TMan has some liberals in its midst based on commentary.

Blessings,
Mark

"If this Supreme Being made this earth and a Heaven that we all get into why not just make this earth Heaven from the get go?"

He did, but Adam & Eve's insatiable urge for some Apple Crisp, so to speak, led to their disobeying God, who provided everything for them. Those naked Garden of Eden frolickers opened up the Original Pandora's box and all of humankind has suffered since.

It ses to me reading this thread alot of the people don't read God word. That's not good because your gambling with your destiny.

Good comment Guss. Scripture is God's Story revealed for us to know.
How can any of us love someone we don't know?
We can't.
How do we know of God?
By His revelations to us.
Creation - Scripture - Jesus

Word to the World - Scripture
Word in the World - Jesus Christ
World of the Word - Creation

Blessings,
Mark

I have seen a lot of "devout Christians" who have less of a chance of going to Heaven if it was real than most of the atheists I know.

"I like your Christ, but I am not so sure about some of your Christians."
most likely the correct quote from Gandhi.

Valid point. I guess I should have worded different. The question I was trying to get at was more why not make it so that there couldn't be any wrong done on the first earth.

Wouldn't that be like putting you in jail because your neighbor killed someone?

In other words, why did he put the temptation there in the first place?

a better question would be: would the atheists in heaven still BE atheists, after having been proven wrong?

They would be believers because they saw the light (pun intended)

but they wouldn't ADMIT it!

Then God would send them to the place below since atheist say they need proof and seeing is believing.

God send no one to he'll, they do it themselves

Some seem to find it hard to understand that God allows you to make the choice.

Two thirds of Americans call themselves Christian but that doesn't make it so. The new birth is a supernatural act God undertakes in saving a sinner. A rarity among the professing.

The word Christian is only used three times in the Bible and two of those are in mocking situations.
The word disciple is used over 280 times in Scripture.
The term Christian has been redefined to the point it has too many contexts today.
So, it's better to distinguish yourself as a follower of Christ or a disciple of Jesus the Christ for clarity in 2022.

That said, being a follower of Christ and His Gospel Hope is not easy. Jesus promised that the world would persecute those who followed Him and that has remained constant since He spoke those words.
The flesh, the world, and Satan all collaborate and conspire against the Gospel and its author because the darkness of sin hates the Light.

Blessings,
Mark

Are Muslims going to go to the burning place down below since they believe in a different god.

No not all. For you know it easier for a Muslim or hindu to belive in Christ then Americans. You have everything here food,jobs,money,sex you name it America has it!, over there they have nothing that why is easy for them to belive in Christ.

I think everyone is free to believe what they want if I'm wrong in the end I'll take my lickens like a man

People that are lost are lost already!
Perhaps if they have never heard of Jesus and have never rejected Him, and have lived a good moral life then they might still have a shot at Heaven. If they have never heard the Word and God sent them to the fire, would he be a just God. But before one starts hoping He winks at ignorance, just think of all the radio stations and all the TV in the world, makes one wonder if there are people that really haven't heard. Probably there is more that haven't heard than we might think, even right here in America. Most of our church's are always sending missionaries to some far off unheard of place, but very few are sent to Chicago, its too dangerous, lol.

Romans 2:14-16

There were unbelieving disciples.

God writes on the human heart with a point of a diamond, for the human heart is surely hard.

The Lord is a God eager to save. Isa42:21

Read Rev 22:18 to 21 about adding or subtract from his word.

Here's the answer, if an atheist went to heaven he would realize he was wrong. Your not going to win hearts and minds with this argument.

The hardest part of belief for the Christian isn't in believing whether or not God exists, it's believing God would save and keep a wretch such as I. That's the universal challenge throughout the church.

People who speak of being a "good" human being have never had their heart illuminated by God. Believing there are innately good people is the fairy tale.

If the Lord gave it as his ascending instruction, it's good enough for this follower.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19.
Jesus used words with precision and the Gospel writers wrote them down as such.
So that we have clarity.

Discipleship means relationship and time spent in the Word with that person.
The early church didn't even baptize anyone until they were taught the foundations of "The Way."
Today, we wear crosses as good luck charms more than following the Lord God as a disciple OR disciple maker.
Each of us as followers, saved by grace and not of our own works, should have a person we are discipling.
The great commission was not a suggestion - it was the explicit command of Jesus the Christ, who is the Son of God.

Blessings,
Mark

Pride is the underpinning of coveting and together they are in all of us. The redeemed are aided by the convicting Spirit while the unredeemed consider it all foolishness.
Pridefulness is not something only males do and neither is coveting.

Blessings,
Mark

Hey Mark
-side bar but I found this to be a very interesting comment you made about the use of the word Christian in the Bible, only being used three times. Could you share the three verses? I have never noticed or thought of that before and am intrigued.
Thanks

Jesus said the road to he'll is wide and alot of people find it,the road to Heaven is small and few find it.

People don't belive now because their healthy have money in the bank have a wife or girlfriend and a good job.
So why would he need God? But if he gets a sickness or cancer you can bet he will call out to God . Why is that? Does God gotta make it bad for you till you come to him.

I'm not Mark, but this is what I found - 1) Acts 11:26 2) 1 Peter 4:16 3) Revelation 2:10

We were the WAY before being called christians

That's great. Thanks Paul

Hey Rusty,
Be happy to. FYI - I read the NASB Bible as my main text.

Acts 11:26
... and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Acts 26:28
Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.”

1 Peter 4:16
... but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

We realize the word Christian is what those who follow Christ, Son of God, who rose from the dead on the 3rd day are called. It's described in the biblical narrative as shown but as so many other words in the 21st century, the initial meaning (as shown in Scripture) of the term Christian has grown so broad, many people hear it and give it an improper context. For example, my neighbor's dog is named Christian.

Blessings,
Mark

Well played Bossman!
I'm in the original language and I don't see Christian in Rev 2:10?
For those who enjoy studying such things.... On the spelling of Christian in the original Greek language, Ac 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pt 4:16, theologians for many years have given this greek word "Christian" the context and meaning of; "one who is associated w. Christ, Christ-partisan, Christian." (William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature).

Justin Martyr has incredibly insightful apologetics regarding the name of Christian. Christians were heavily persecuted by Rome and Martyr would pay for his faith with his life but his writings are worth reading. Here's a slice of "The First Apologetic of Justin Martyr, chapter IV;

By the mere application of a name, nothing is decided, either good or evil, apart from the actions implied in the name; and indeed, so far at least as one may judge from the name we are accused of, we are most excellent people. But as we do not think it just to beg to be acquitted on account of the name, if we be convicted as evil-doers, so, on the other hand, if we be found to have committed no offence, either in the matter of thus naming ourselves, or of our conduct as citizens, it is your part very earnestly to guard against incurring just punishment, by unjustly punishing those who are not convicted. For from a name neither praise nor punishment could reasonably spring, unless something excellent or base in action be proved. And those among yourselves who are accused you do not punish before they are convicted; but in our case you receive the name as proof against us, and this although, so far as the name goes, you ought rather to punish our accusers. For we are accused of being Christians, and to hate what is excellent (Chrestian) is unjust. Again, if any of the accused deny the name, and say that he is not a Christian, you acquit him, as having no evidence against him as a wrong-doer; but if any one acknowledge that he is a Christian, you punish him on account of this acknowledgment.

Justin Martyr, “The First Apology of Justin,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 163–164.

Mark, there are several examples in Acts where believers were baptized the same day they were saved. Three thousand in one instance. The early church doesn't get any more early than that.

It cost something to make a profession in Christ in those days, quite possibly your life. Today it's just an add-on to your lifestyle.

Persecution goes deeper than just the name. Mannerisms and accent are superficial ways of coming to quick conclusions. Maybe even your clothes might identify one as a trouble maker.

Jehoshaphat wore clothes to battle that made him the target, but an stray arrow found Ahab anyway (no coincidences that day).

When making decisions we need a little more evidence than just what catches the eye. So if I am just "adding Christianity on as a life style" and get accused of being so, is there enough evidence to convict me ?

But, He did give us an owner's manual: The Bible.

Everything you've said about the disciples is absolutely true. Most of them were tortured and died horrible deaths. It was because of what they had witnessed and had first hand knowledge of. Something miraculous had to have happened to Paul. He was tortured, imprisoned and ended up giving his life because of it.

You cite the sermon by Peter to the Israelites after which those who "received" these words (Repent!) were baptized.
But there's more.
There are 269 X in the NT that the term disciple is used, all of which are located in the Gospels and Luke's writings in Acts. Most all are references to those who followed Jesus and His teachings. Men and women.

God's effectual call of Saul on the road to Damascus changed everything, especially as it relates to the preaching and teaching of the Kingdom of God as a Gospel Hope for people like me who are Gentiles. From Paul's 1st letter to the church of the Thessalonians in 51AD to his last letter to Timothy in Ephesus in 67AD, the word disciple is not used but rather terms of "in Christ" is the process Paul describes over 500 X.

Out of the norm for our individualistic culture is that in our becoming like Christ, while it's deeply personal... it isn't private. It isn't a me and my Jesus context. Rather, to assist us in the process of becoming like Christ, the Church was ordained, which is the best possible place of spiritual transformation in a small, regular, committed group of believers working together as one - united by the Spirit in Christ.

We get a glimpse of Heaven here on earth when we commune with others who are also united in Christ.

It's infinitely deep as only God.
As well as incredibly simple when illuminated by the Spirit in us.

Blessings,
Mark

To play the advocate, because none of my prior comments have inspired an intelligent response, what happens if you spend your life as a pious man failing to accept or recognize your fellow man who chooses to believe differently, but tells you with his words and shows you with his actions he is rightous, instead slighting or judinging him because your views and interpretations are the only just and logical interpretations... are you the righteous man or is he?

You seek an intelligent answer to your inquiry? Is the Word of God sufficient enough for you?
Your question has been precisely answered with a Divinely inspired, inerrant answer:
It is: there are NONE who are righteous.

In the New Testament;
As it is written: "There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one." (Romans 3:9-12)

Which comes from the Psalm of David 14:1-3 in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Blessings,
Mark

It's the book, not understanding that drives you, I understand your position, its not you or your words I'm attacking or failing to understand, it's the uncompromising nature in which you so choose to feamently defend your position against someone who seeks to hear all sides and understands many truths make the one truth. Righteousness is not the same as force of will, simply quoting a book does not make you right. Understanding the words and why they were spoken gives true meaning to your argument

Roman's 1:20 Ever since God created the world,his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!.

Again sir you are quoting a book, can you explain in your own words how that applies or will you simply post a other quote from the Bible. If it is the first please spend your time tying to understand the actual applications of the words he has provided you.

Why not choose to cast your own stone of understanding

Pious according to who? Righteous according to who? How would you know?

These are good questions, I think every man and woman knows how to treat each other and their children. You can see it when it's not right and you know it. I believe the Bible is a good guide so is the Koran and the Torah they put people on the right path. Taking these books too literally you will miss the meaning and word, and you will attack your fellow man in word and deed

In these types of disagreements we can all quote books "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” ( Deuteronomy 31:6). You belive you are right and so do I.

Of all the things I have said, I'll hear an argument to this "But the Lord said to Samuel, ‘Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” ( Samuel 16:7 ). Quoting a book with your own intentions does little for someone well versed, but can do much for a person of acceptance

Wild WI,
Is it OK if some of us have no idea what you're asking? You equate the Bible with the Torah? The Torah is the 1st 5 books of the Protestant Bible. The Koran? Ah, no.
Islam is not Christianity no matter how you spin equity and fairness and be nice or...
what are you asking?

If you're asking for an apologetic to your questions, then yes, using the Bible is a circular argument.
But it's the perfect place to be circular.
God's logos made the world we live in so it's better to use the Creator's Word than using "what we think"
... whenever He's provided clarity to us on Who He is and What His Will is for us.

There's a recorded writing from 1400 BC, from a prophet named Moses, about a garden and a man and woman and a serpent who seems to be able to stand and converse, who suggests to this man and woman that God may not have really said the things God did say.
By tossing the Bible into the liberal theologian schema of "it's just another book," it seems to imitate that chapter 3 scene of Genesis in Eden all over again.


Blessings,
Mark

Mark I guess we will agree to disagree, we are clearly on different levels. I can respect that I hope you can as well. Zeb

Wild_ Wi
I think maybe I understand some of what you are saying. Some of us memorize scripture and when it comes out of us its like we are on auto pilot. Jim Jones and David Koresh certainly knew the scripture but they used it more as a brain washing technique. God gave use a natural conscience, its not the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit teaches us by it. We can't just go by our natural conscience because it has been influenced by our upbringing. If our family was to engage in a practice, say selling drugs to get by and meet our needs then our conscience does not guide us and say its wrong. Its kinda like the deputy to the soul and if the deputy is corrupted then we know how that will end. When we read the Word it will help guide and correct our conscience. The Word gives us a go to standard. People will tell you they can lie, cheat or steal and their conscience don't bother them. That is true because it is corrupted. If ones conscience and the Holy Spirit reject one another then your faith has been made shipwreck.
The point I'm making I think is in agreement with what your saying in that we are like a recording when we just quote scripture and don't care what the outcome might be, kinda just like shooting off rounds in the air and not caring where they come down.
I will continue thinking and praying about this tonight.

Foxpaw, You have made my point exactly. I could not and clearly did not explain it as well as you did

Of course the devil believes in God. That is his main adversary. You just proved your own point.

First of all, your name is often referenced in the NT as the father of James and John, or in the OT as the Levite in the books of 1 and 2 Chronicles. It is a grand name.
Second, I'm not trying to argue with you. That suggests a winner and a loser. Perhaps you're seeking that but I was asking for clarity from you.

To suggest we not use Scripture as followers of Christ is to suggest against the underpinnings of God's "Special" Revelation for us and if there's anything we believers are guilty of, perhaps it's using the Word of God more as a "rule book" or a "how to" book, rather than reading it as the narrative is was intended to be. The Story of God's Plan for Creation - Redemption - Restoration of earth and heavens.
So.... as followers of Christ, the Bible should be used wherever possible to give us Truth where we seek it.

That's what I was asking you. Are you seeking wisdom and Truth, which are housed in God, or are you seeking people's opinions? They are not the same.
Do not confuse the two as our flesh desires, the world promotes, and Satan conspires for.

Blessings,
Mark

"All" is too broad of a term here.
Many would work.

Would you agree the nation of Israel is still real? After millennia of wretched persecution and scattering of the people by the mightiest empires on the planet? Who themselves have all perished but small, tiny, Holy Israel yet remains.
How 'bout that.
Almost like it's a miracle

And it was Moses, the 1st prophet of God, who led the Chosen Nation of God out of bondage 3,464 years ago into the wilderness of Zin.
A two week journey took 40 years, so we know there were issues on the trail according to Moses' writings. Mainly people grumbling. And grumbling. And more grumbling.
Sounds a lot like today

Blessings,
Mark

Exodus is one of my favorite books of the Bible. A very accurate foreshadowing of how God leads the NT believer out of his bondage to Satan. I refer to it all the time as a reminder of how God graciously brought me out of the wilderness of sin. We're held captive to sin and Satan until the Deliverer sets us free.

Well said. Walked that same path.

All followers of Christ have come this way
... and we pray more will be gathered soon.
Charles Spurgeon, that Prince of Preachers from England in the 1800's, is one of my favorites to read and his comment about those who Jesus draws gives great context to God's love for us;

"It is very beautiful to see what a mixture Christ’s disciples were. There were fishermen, but they were not all of that class; for there was among them a man of the Pharisees, a ruler of the Jews; there was a devout Nathanael, but there was also a publican to whose house salvation came. They were not all of the lower ranks, for among the holy women who ministered to him were some from Herod’s court, and one who is called “the beloved physician” followed him as his Lord. They were not all of characters commendable, for a woman that was a sinner was his true disciple, but there were others against whom no moral fault has ever been alleged. They came to him drawn by his mysterious power from every portion of the land, from every condition and rank, from many phases of mind and types of character:" 'they came to him from every quarter' (according to Scripture).