Dinosaur

One of science biggest lie's to discredit creation.

Lol

So, all those bones are fake? Ahh, you're just trying to start a long thread...

I created a beautiful dinner tonight, I must be God.

CJD,CWD and Mad Cow disease are all the same disease?

Not at all, there real. But the better question is,is the dinosaur real?

What do you think they are?

Yes

After seeing gators and turkeys I have to believe there was dinosaurs around. Either that or they made up dinosaurs from those two critters!

Dinosaurs, people... who cares it's just one more thing to argue about. I could careless what you belive unless you try to push it on other people.

Dinosaurs were real. There is concrete (literally lol) evidence of that. The real question is why do people so adamantly believe that dinosaurs, evolution, and creationism can’t all be true at the same time?

You'd have to define what you believe evolution to mean, are you talking kind changing kind? Because there is no evidence to support that, if you're talking adaptation within a kind of course that happens... it's happening now

I believe the pre-flood world was much different that what we see today.

So, the Bible talks about dinosaurs but they were called by there biblical names, along comes science (non believers) so to discredit the Bible and the fact that human and these large creatures co existed they made up a new name to call them. This took place in the 1840s.

Think if Gators,Crocs. Living to 700 years old?

That's right, they change the name to there liking/ benefit.

My cousin found a Utah Raptor while hunting in our reservation. He often carries the talon with him.

My dad's cousin found the remains of 2 dinosaurs that were in tangled together also on our reservation. They are on display at the NM Natural History Museum.

Last period of the dinosaurs was the period-ending around 70 million years ago--long before man.
I have bone chips from the triceratops that is in the mn. science museum.Given to me by the paleontologist 57 years ago,when I interviewed him for a mschool project I was doing.
This was the period in which the T Rex was the big shooter.
Tom

I don't believe dinos and humans existed together. God's time is not human time.

Glenn RoseTexas and dinosaur state park, dinosaur tracks and human tracks are fossilized in the same fossils which would have happened in a very short period of time as in weeks.

Gennis's explains time very clearly.

You lost me at 70 million years ago.

This site is full of them and we will be extinct soon enough lol

Those "human" tracks inside of dinosaur tracks were debunked years ago. Even the guy who originally "found" them admitted that he chiseled the outline of the "human" tracks so "you can see them better".
Don't be fooled by believing what you want to think; believe in truth.
BTW, I believe in Divine creation, God created the entire universe and the life within it.

I lean toward the idea that God may have created, and destroyed, life on earth numerous times throughout the ages. The Bible only tells us about this age, and more narrowly, the story of the Jews.

So, how long is a day to God?


You and I do not know. 24 hours is a human day.

Some friends from church went to see the the model of Noahs ark in Indiana I think it was. They came back telling how good it was and that it had dinosaurs on it, that part about the dinosaurs ruined it for me and I had no desire to see it then and even less so now.

Pretty hard to dispute the earth is alot older than the Bible says.

A disparity in what a year is about the only possibility to square things.

Its all about interpretation. Is the usual answer that I get when the nitty gritty just don't had up. then I either am not reading it right or their god did this or that in a different way that can't be described with mere mortal ways. Gets old after a while... I'll just keep on doing it wrong

My truck and tractors run on dinosaur juice, so I know there were dinos.

And there are also those who denied the fact that native Americans built massive mounds and that arrowheads and other projectile points were made by lightning strikes

"mere mortal ways"......You're gonna figure it out yet!!!!

Out of curiosity what do you folks get out of debating this? Are you hoping someone on the other side of the argument says "OH MAN IVE BEEN WRONG ALL MY LIFE" or is this just to fight for fights sake

There's no mention of how long Eden was around before the fall of man. In fact at the fall that's when time, from a mortal perspective, would have begun.

FYI, the Bible does not say how old the earth is, and if someone tries to contort it so that they can extrapolate the earth's age, they are then misusing scripture for their own agenda.

Long ago I did some study about Biblical time.
I recall that a year in God’s time is much longer than a year in man’s time.
That is fine with me.
Faith is required.

I suppose our definition of a year is an earthly measurement and not a universal measurement. Billions and billions of stars exist and planetary movements around them are probably all different. Time is a human concept.

I agree with you, waggler.

X2 Charles. I was told long ago. Cant mix science and faith. Neither can support the other. But you can believe in both. No wrong in that.

Then that should make the original poster feel better about dinosaurs.

^^^^^^^
I hope so, but it most likely won't.

If dinosaurs aren’t real, I’m pretty ticked I had to do a presentation on an iguanadon in 7th grade in front of my science class.

A day is dawn to dusk, a night is dusk to dawn.

Im having a hard time understanding Nates point, question or statement? Dinosaurs are a lie? OKKKKKK

Didn't the ancient Hebrew as found in the Old Testament teach the earth was flat?

I think the Babylonians believed that the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth had a tunnel that the sun went through, that was what caused night time. They also had a number system based on 60 instead of 10's. We still use 60 min and seconds on our clocks. They provided us with the basics of algebra and medicines. So they were still pretty bright, just dull dull on some things, like me !

Not true.
God is the author of science and He's probably been saying "hurry up!" for some time as we humans are prone to initiate analysis paralysis in our projects.
Renowned theologians have historically been scientific and it's only been since the liberal theologians emerged on the scene two centuries ago that they claimed "science and God don't mix."
Sure they do.
I'm academically trained in science and theology and I'm cool with all of it, with God being the header under which ALL other things are placed....
not the 1700's version of anthropology (study of humans) emerging as the key category and God being under it.
Backards as granddad would say.

Blessings,
Mark

I have a 3 x 4 foot piece of shale in my basement. I got it from the roof rock in a mine in Indiana County Pa. I barred it down myself. It has amphibious tetrapod tracks criss crossing the rock. Actually two different kind of critters. The rock came from an area about 400 feet below the surface. These came from the Carboniferous Era, a couple hundred million years ago.

In 37 years working underground, I’d never seen anything like it. Folks from Pitt and Penn State Universities came to look at that area of the mine, it was full of tracks.

I’m just wondering what I’m gonna do with this big rock downstairs.

It would look good at my camp😉

I had a religious guy tell me those fossils were made that way by God to test my faith in Him. Oil is the same way, made that way from day one. Pretty crazy philosophy if you ask me,

I was at Dinosaur, Colorado in '77 at the quarry and saw the dinosaurs. Am sure they have improved the settings by now but it was quite a site even then.

Never under stood why I'd idea of God making life then setting it though evolution was such a crazy one . Especially with as much as the Bibles has been changed around and edited, who to say there not some lost text somewhere that basically says " yeah God made bacteria then made that turn into this which turned into that so on and so on"

I think there is a strong possibility that the Bible isn’t concerned with dinosaurs...at all. If we spend our time trying to make it talk about dinosaurs, there is also a strong possibility that we won’t hear what the Bible is trying to communicate...at all. Lately I’ve had a growing sense that the Bible needs to be rescued from the stories we put in it. Where to start? I don’t know.

Mark, I respect your training, but you are coming at me in code.

You just want someone to argue with you.

Wake up your wife.

Here’s a picture I took inside the mine, nine years ago. These track were made by an amphibious tetrapod, that would have predated dinosaurs. These critters walked the earth a couple of hundred million years ago.

This area of the mine was full of tracks in the mine roof. Must have been a good crossing. Good place to catch one in a blind set.

I have two fossilized dinosaur eggs.
They came from a museum that was upgrading their collection and selling off multiple duplicates.

I would love to know how having dinosaurs would disprove the Bible

Dinosaurs and people definitely lived together. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what wiped them out......Just ask yourself what has made every other animal go extinct in as far as we can go back? Humans with assistance from nature. I'm down for them to Jurassic Park them, wolly mammoths, Eastern Elk, American Lion and others.

They definitely lived together...saw it on the Flintstones!

Cant wait to find out who is right the Muslims, Hebrews, Catholics, Mormons, Native Americans, Orthodox and on and on and on which one is right just as well throw in the Druids. But I have found lots of fossil dinosaur bones and still wondering how Noah got all them critters on that boat.

Some of these posts confirm our national IQ is falling. Fast.

Im pretty sure humans would be the extinct ones if they lived alongside dinosaurs.

Not even close, once the first group of us made it through and figured out how to navigate, its only a matter of time before they all get wiped out. The only thing that I would have loved to know is what they tasted like, I mean beyond the incredible view of seeing them in person.

Dinosaurs predated us. Do you understand carbon dating?

Please elaborate on this navigation technique.

Do you? Carbon dating only works back to 50,000 years or so.

Take a picture of it and post it. I am on the edge of my seat.

What's your trap check frequency laws? I'm thinking that if its 24 hours, your gonna be busy for a while.

Here’s the rock that’s in my basement…I circled the line of tracks

There is a big difference between adaptation and evolution.
Adaptation is merely the ability of a species to change its ways to make a living in the relatively short term.
Evolution is a result of random genetic mutations occurring over millions of years which renders a survival edge to some which is passed on to their progeny, while those which lack those genetic traits die out.
Most species today on the endangered species list are the ones which lack the advantage of the process. 99.9% of all known species on Earth have gone extinct. Those on the endangered list are merely next in line to join the 99.9%.
If we believe that God has better plans for human beings, we might want to start acting better to deserve it.

Here’s a better pic of the mine roof.


A different critter…



Me, pointing at the tracks…

There are other types of isotope dating that are used past 50,000 years. And other types of dating techniques.

Yeah I know but Chas apparently does not.

How would it get on the ceiling?

Well then quit posting and help strengthen the curve a bit. Take one for the Gipper.....

I don't believe any of that dating things back to hundreds of thousands of years is accurate. It's a hypothesis at best in my opinion. And my opinion counts because I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express not once, but twice!!

I'd like to know where this bit of information came from.

The mine roof was once the surface of the earth. When these critters walked in the mud, they sunk in and made a track. Over time, more silt accumulated over the mud that the track was made in. Over time, the silt formed layers of shale. When the coal was removed, mine roof is shale. If some of the shale rock scales off, it exposes the tracks….no longer sunk in the mud, but rather raised tracks. That’s because the tracks filled with silt and are adhered to the layer of rock above it.

Thanks bigbrownie. I should of thought that we were looking at the underside of them. Very interesting.

Believe me, I had to think about it while back then to understand what I was looking at. I’ve known thousands of miners in my life, but none that I know of have ever seen anything like this. The folks from the universities were very excited….you could tell by their reactions it was something very rare to encounter.
How could something 400 feet underground once be the earth’s surface. Mind boggling stuff for sure.

I understand they carbon dated snails to be thirty thousand years old, and the place knew they were less than 30 years old. LoL

They carbon dated a fresh killed seal to be 1600 years old. ( Antarctic Journal of United States Volume 6 Oct. 1971)

Guess only, but would say glaciers or a great flood.

There would have been 2 parts to that trackway, the layer below it would have had the mirror opposite of the tracks that I assume got destroyed somehow.

There is a layer of coal here that is 1200? feet down, in addition to the layers at 300 and closer to surface. Interesting that this area is 1100 feet roughly above current sea level.

There are natural gas producing shale layers at 1400ft and 4000ft, plus several more on down to I believe 10 or 12,000ft.

In the overall timeline of the planet, human existence is a tiny sliver of time. The era of organized religions is a much smaller sliver.

Guess only, but would say glaciers or a great flood.[/quote]

That 400 feet of overburden was already there by the time the glaciers came through.

tracks were in a coal mine, where coal was mined out from underneath them. Everything below tracks for maybe four to six or eight feet, was either coal or slate or shale. And was chewed out by the mining. Coal layers were formed by compressed plant matter.

That 400 feet of overburden was already there by the time the glaciers came through.[/quote]

Well I guess that narrowed it down.

The most cover I ever worked under here in Pa was 750 feet. But I know down in Alabama they mine with over a 1000 feet of overburden. Mines that deep typically have a lot of methane gas.

Well I guess that narrowed it down.[/quote]
Yea Im thinking flood too but how big did it have to be to deposit 400-1000 feet of sediment? It is hard for me to wrap my head around it.

There's the pittsburgh seam at 300ft, but there's another one at either 1000 or 1200. They had considered mining that here, but i don't think they really did much about it.

I don't mean to derail this thread onto the topic of how old the earth is. But, many coal deposit zones are several hundred feet thick and were deposited over a long period of time with long intervals of dry periods between each layer. So you have a layered cake effect; layer of coal from accumulated vegetation, and layers of sediments (usually shales or sandstones). Terrestrial animal tracks are found in these layers.

Young Earth creationists say that these coal deposits and thick sediments were a result of one major cataclysm; the great flood. The evidence left between these coal layers would pretty much prove that these layers of coal and sediments were a result of a long periods of time with much different conditions existing between various layers.

In other words there is no way that all these layers of sediments were deposited in a short period of time, or one catastrophic event.

BTW, I believe in the Great Flood, but also believe the physical evidence (not radio isotope dating, etc.) points to a very old earth.

Actually I've thought about along that same line, not so much about a lost text, but a inspired text. It says that Eve was made from Adams rib. A rib will regenerate itself as well as the liver. Now I can't believe that the writer in Genesis would have known the rib would regenerate itself, but rather was inspired by the Spirit to write that. Why else would he have wrote a rib as the source. Oh, by the way men and women have the same number of ribs.

On another note Adam had a nagging woman that talked him into eating from that tree and I'm guessing he was complaining about her. But he only gave a rib for her, just think what a woman he would have got if he had given an arm and a leg for her !

As far as time is concerned just think how much older the Appalachian Mountains are than the Rocky Mountains. It would have taken along time to wear them off that much.
Which brings up another thing. Some think the mountains was pushed up when the flood came and that all the weight on the earths surface pushed down enough to cause enough down pressure to shove up the mountains. The only problem with that would be two different mountain ranges formed in a different time range not to mention other mountains around the world including on the bottom of oceans. So would that reasoning insinuate more than one flood? Of course many islands and mountains are formed by hot lava pressure from heat on the inside of earth, all emissions approved by the EPA of course, lol.

Or that the continents floated apart.

It would be a mistake to believe that the forces that created the rocks of the mountain are the same forces that put the mountain in place

There are a lot of goofy ideas thrown out there by people who have no idea of geological and mountain building processes. Most of these uninformed ideas come about from these folks desire to explain a young earth. I've read their books and sat through their lectures. Most of them laughable, but kind of sad to see that they pontificate about things they know very little of, all the while making money off of unsuspecting followers.

Here is what I find most interesting. Look at all of the living creatures, plant and animal, and all of the intricacies involved in life, growth, reproduction, respiration, digestion, etc, etc. Yet, folks try to dispel divine creation because inanimate fossils, rocks, mountains or silt layers couldn't be created?

I believe in Divine creation, but I don't believe that God created fossils inside sedimentary rocks at the creation of the world; that's just silly talk. I heard that idea once from a "young earther". I asked him why God would do such a thing; his reply was "to confuse the foolish". My reply to him was, "God is not a God of confusion..." 1 Corinthians 14:33.

The folks who put forward these kinds of ideas call themselves "Creation Scientists". However, once they start this kind of talk they really need to remove any mention of science from their discussion.

How was Noah able to wrangle up two Bigfoots for the Arc? We can’t even find one.

So, in your mind, when he created the first trees, did they have annual growth rings or where they made up of clear grainfree lumber? Did he create birds or a bunch of eggs that eventually turned into birds? What was the starting point for anything?

^^^^
The Bible doesn't tell us that. However, if you want to go down that track I suppose if he created full grown trees they would have had perfectly clear ring-free wood. I've seen tree rings in fast growing trees that are over an inch wide, or maybe He created all trees as new seedlings. Arguing about these things is no different than arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; pointless, and it has nothing to do with the Gospel. In fact it is counterproductive to that endeavor.

The reason I'm a little persnickety about the subject is because I have studied both sides of the issue, and I find that it is the young earth authors and circuit riders (seminar speakers) who are being divisive and creating conflict between science and divine creation where there should be none. I think the divisiveness is good for selling books and home school curriculum to their audiences.

I heard, in person, in public, Kenneth Ham say that he would question a person's salvation if that person believed the earth was over 10,000 years old; rubbish.

Taking the position that God created fossils in the earth can in no way be justified by using scripture, and it just makes believers look foolish.

Waggler,
I'm not arguing about anything, and you're right, nothing I said is in the gospel but very few details about creation are, leaving a lot to think about and speculate. Myself, I can't imagine going to all the trouble of creating life and dropping it on a perfectly round planet where no geologic features had yet been formed. Life requires ecosystems capable of supporting it.

My point is, if you could create a full grown tree, there is no reason you couldn't create one with the appropriate amount of rings for it's size. If you could create a mountain there's no reason you couldn't create one with fossels or sediment layers. Not saying the gospel says that's what happened.

^^^^^
Walleye101
I think it is good to have honest debates (among believers) about "open-handed" issues; after all "iron sharpens iron". But when a few prominent people get dogmatic on an issue that can't be supported biblically it just makes all of us look foolish. I think we can agree on that.

Definitions;
Open-handed issues.
Things like; the age of the earth, predestination vs freewill, cultural issues on things that are not biblically prohibited, etc..

Close-handed issues, God is the Creator, Jesus is God incarnate, Jesus took the penalty of our sins upon himself, Jesus rose from the dead, etc..

Depending on the method used, Those results may be within the margin of error the given method.
You don't see carbon dates reported as a number like 33,450,012 years.

I should not ask this but I will anyway. When people talk about the ark they always talk about animals by twos but I am pretty sure there was a different count for a different type of animal? I am speaking of clean and unclean.

Did you not read the Bible, anything is possible with God!!

It's easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven, but anything is possible with God.

The Bible is never wrong where it touches on science. Not in hydrology, biology, cosmology or anything else it touches on.

True. But then, on the other hand, Jesus did say that he spoke in parables so that people on the outside would NOT understand what He was saying, otherwise they mihgt believe and repent.
‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

I too have doubts about a lot of what is put forth as fact about dinosaurs. It often seems to me that I'm given lots of information about a particular species of dinosaur - when it lived, what it ate, how it reproduced, how its skin was textured and how fast it could run. I'm shown a graphic model of it in a dioramic setting to show what color it was and the habitat in which it lived. Then when I read more about the details I find out that they extrapolated all this from three small pieces of fossilized bone. Things like that make me very skeptical!

I know there's a lot of very smart scientists out there. But I believe a lot of them (even "intelligent design" or "young earth" proponents) speculate about things and then put forth their conclusions as irrefutable fact. Anyways... dinosaur fossils are interesting and worth exploring. But, they really aren't that important to modern existence or our way of life. It's quite amusing, but none of it really makes any difference to what I'm going to do today or tomorrow.

I'm a young earth believer. There is so much unexplained. When the flood happened if you take the Bible literally there was world wide cataclysmic happenings. It says mountains were made flat and flat places were raised up. I believe the world was very different than it is now. I believe in dinosaurs - I just think they were left on the earth by God instead of having them enter the ark or maybe they were on the ark but did not survive long afterword. There's a stone river bed out west that has dinosaur tracks and human tracks together petrified into the stone. Why not? We accept the people who say '' millions and millions of years ago'' but when someone like me says they think the earth is not that old we are called crazy. In my onion it is all about faith. You can have faith in God or faith in nature or faith in your own ideas. I look at the piles of dead dino bones in the west as proof of a great flood drowning them. People studying them say it looks like they were all washed there at the same time. As trappers we see all the secret places and things others do not get to see. We are part of nature. We are the top preditor. I just believe God is in charge of it all.

This is like the big bang theory; What went bang?

[b][/b]
I mentioned it way earlier in this thread, but this story of human and dinosaur track together has been debunked. The person who originally "found" them admits that he chiseled their outlines a bit in order to make them "easier to see".

Furthermore, and to his credit I might add, John D. Morris - son of the late Henry Morris (Institute of Creation Research) - agrees that those are not human tracks in what has become known as the "Paluxy River foot prints" .
here's a link.
https://drmsh.com/those-alleged-human-footprints-mixed-with-dinosaur-tracks-in-paluxy-tx/

If you believe the creation account in the Bible, you're forced to believe Adam walked with dinosaurs. There was no death before Adam sinned.

Exactly. And there is PLENTY of scientific evidence that humans and animals were on the earth at the same time.

I believe the Bible. All of it.

Why if everything is predestined would sin matter.
Maybe God created and destroyed those dinosaurs on one of those 24 hr days the sun wasn't yet.

We are forced to believe? I guess Calvin had scripture that forced babies to be baptized and ended up in some men getting hanged?

Oh Man! The lengths people go to! Thanks!

This is what really happened

Salvation wouldn't be an issue if not for sin. The doctrine of election scares the daylights out of some and brings great comfort to others. I'm in the latter.

Problems with theory of evolution

Not entirely on the subject, but a great talk i lessened to while fletching arrows on how the theory of evolution has many problems. I never heard this before, but I might of had my mind changed. Lots to learn.

I don't really beleive in much these days. I do beleive in dinosaurs though and I have a hard time wrapping my head around God when it means different things to different people and cultures. I've started in the AA program many years ago and they talk of a higher power. Being non religious I have a hard time understanding this and instead quit drinking by believing in myself. So far so good.

Wayne,
You have quite a negative opinion on the providence and sovereignty of God. We all do until the day we're called and born again.
As a chaplain who deals with all sorts of grave situations, I'd guess you have some junk in the trunk that is flavoring your opinion, which is not atypical.
In fact, it's rather commonplace.

As far as Dinosaurs, I never met one and I don't care. From so long ago and yet people still argue about who/what/when.

As far as scientific evidence being found in the Bible, that's not what the Special Revelation from God for us was meant for.
It's inspired and authored to reveal the Story and Character of God.

Blessings,
Mark

^^^^^
Amen!

Glad I listened to the whole thing. I particularly liked the part about how long does it take 1 million monkeys on 1 million typewriters at random before you get Shakespeare, lol.

I don't care how many monkeys on type writers you have, or for how many years. You still can't generate life from non-life.
Just ask an evolutionist what they think about the idea that used to be accepted as fact; that flies spontaneously generated from garbage. Evolutionist (not mutationists) laugh at the idea of spontaneous fly generation, however, that is essentially what they believe if they believe that life came from non-life.

Yeah, I always hated to swallow a hair because hair turns to worms.

Its a good talk that challenged my past beliefs. I still believe in dinosaurs. Ive found a few fossils and seen other big bones found in my state, but its hard to think of something natural not being the way you assumed it was your whole life. Honestly, it made me feel of earth as an experiment if you remove evolution.

The argument then stays the same. You can't generate life from non-life. So did god just play dinosaur for millions of years before he decided to play human? I mean no offense, just adding to good conversation.

The part about where did "life" come from is a major blockage in my scientific approach. Makes me think that I orta get Jesused up before judgement day comes. How much longer do I have?

The "where?" is part of the "how" of which all the ologies have debated for some time.
The key however, is in the "why?" as in "why are we here?"
Evolutionary theory, which has bolstered the atheistic worldview, giving it a solid foundation on which to claim "where/how" life began doesn't have an answer for "why" life began?
Which is a very important question to all humans.
Very important indeed. As a pastor who supports people in grave situations I can tell you that when all else is boiled down to what matters and what doesn't, people tell me that WHY they're even here is a main concern they think about. And if they can't' come up with a good reason, everything from aggressive behaviors to suicides are a concern for us in compassion care as it's now known.
People don't care about the HOW they got here when a mother of toddlers is told her cancer is spreading or when a dad is shot in a deal gone bad, or 1000 others scenarios.
They tend to think only about the WHY.

Isn't that interesting and I learn MUCH from those on death's doorstep. I listen more than I speak. My role isn't to save, heal, fix, or rescue anyone in pastoral ministry so I play the role of Job's friends in the first chapters of that Book, and sit with people in support.

From the Christian theology perspective there is a Hope interwoven in the "why?" The Hope of today and the Hope of tomorrow.
For the atheist, without a "why" we're all here, there is a lack of a vital component that feeds us emotionally, relationally and even spiritually.
We are no longer a Christian nation at our core and if we look around, we see what that means in the statistics we're experiencing in categories of drug use, medical diagnoses, and suicide rates that are ever increasing.

Hug your kids and grandkids y'all and tell them precisely "why" they're here.
Not as some ape descendent headed to a better/progressive version of human someday in the future...
but rather fearlessly and wondrously made by God whose known them from before they even were.

Blessings,
Mark

Alot of good ideas and excuses on this thread, but in the end, its hard to ignore there were dinosaurs and it was longer ago than we want to believe....imo of course.

Hahaha well, it worked.

LOL, anything Bible related goes good because even the Bible scholars can't agree on what it means!

I have not read all the post since it opened on the last page but I get the general direction this is going. Science says the earth is 300million years old. The Bible around 6000. Just look at the fossils.

Carbon dating is only good for about 2500 years from what I have read. After that they said ther is not enough left to get accurate readings.

When Mount St Helens exploded the results were tons of rocking flooding and movement around. We have no discrepancies on the exact date on when that occurred 20 or 30 years later some fossils were sent in to be dated and they came back 25 million years old. Shoots a hole right through their science and dating.

The creation museum has some very good displays that answer these questions.

When you say you were a Christian, what does that mean. I mean what, In your mind defines a Christian? And when you say you have studied intently for 10 years, under who's tutelage, what types of learning materials. I am just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from. There was a guy on here a few years ago and he only quoted very liberal theologians. It is like looking at the constitution 200 years ago from our time. You will get a very different viewpoint from a liberal vs conservative. So who did you sit under?

Excellent video you posted D.T. Thank you for sharing. I first heard of two of those guys in Ben Stein's movie called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. Its a good watch as well.

My personal belief is that God did not create dinosaurs, but they were here on earth during the days of Noah. Not only was sin awful during that time, but ALL flesh had been corrupted. If one puts value into the Dead Sea Scrolls, many of the fragments support this viewpoint. Very controversial topic however; too hard to swallow.

Marco polo clearly describes dinosaurs and how the locals where he was learned to kill them by putting sharp stick in the ground by the water where they slid on their bellies to drink impelling themselves on their soft belly on the stakes.

Marco polo also describes a tribe of men with faces and features like dogs, another tribe with tails like palms, and certain historical facts that happened before he was there or after. But because of peoples bias on subjects on both sides of any question people will belief what fits their version of the facts.

jwill asked a very pertinent question I'd be interested in seeing an answer (or many) to. Mark June mentioned the word "Christian" is mentioned just three times in the NT and as a term of derision. Mark liked using "disciple" in its place. There were disciples who turned and went back proving they were never regenerate.

Saint is used many times in the NT and never refers to the unregenerate. What separates the wheat from the tares while they're alive here on earth?

Source please.

I will answer to the best of knowledge in respect to my walk Posco.

I don't like the word Christian. I think it just brings more division as its purpose in the first place by agnostics, theologians, and mainstream woke preachers. IMO Jesus Christ was the most anti-religious person to ever walk the face of the earth. He denounced all the mainstream believers of His time and also let us non-stream believers have it too.

Jesus Christ did NOT come down here to form some sort of religion known as Christianity; but rather He came to save mankind from their sins so that they will have eternal life with Him. It was never about religion when Jesus spoke, but rather right and wrong in light of the Creator's vision and grace to help us in the predicament that we are all in. Everyone one of us are sinners and the wages of sin is death.

Since we are all sinners, we are dead unless we are are covered and forgiven. Jesus Christ, pure of heart and the only innocent human ever to walk the earth, fit the bill. Yes, I believe He was both human and a God at the same time. The shedding of His innocent blood on the cross covered every man, woman, and child that has faith in HIM as the redeemer.

Jesus Christ is our Passover, He IS the voice in the burning Bush, and He was at the battle of Jericho, and He will reign again on this earth in Jerusalem.

To get back on topic of the original post.....

Take a look with a magnifying glass or hand lens of the details of a lizard when you catch it; especially a horned lizard or if in Australia, a thorny devil. Look at the scale placement, the scales around their eyes, and especially their teeth! Teeth say a lot. It is identical to many of the specimens shown on a large scale at the Smithsonian and other natural history museums. There are outliers though, Trex etc., where hybridization across species can result in abhorrent things. All biologists know that cross species can result in gigantism.........give you Tigon, Ligers, etc. Why would crossing species across genera be any differnet?

The replications and fossils we have to go on about dinosaurs are nothing more than bigger and more prominent forms of many of the reptiles we see today. Thank God, they are not big these days though, or we would all be in a mess! Furthermore, none of the genetics, fossil records, are anything suggest a timely ordinance of primitive to more advanced life; but rather everything they look at was all screwed up. There were mammal like dinosaurs, reptile like birds, etc. Science to this day cannot explain away the fact that mammals (supposedly came after dinos) seem to be very apparent in the geologic timeframe. Synapsids I think they call them.

There is much more to this story than mainstream academia suggests. We as a society need to continue prodding.

It was all listed on a display and video at the creation museum. It's been a few years so I don't rember them

mainstream science has no appetite for upsetting the current dogma?

Yes, it developed into a long thread. I quit reading after the first page.

If dinosaurs are so old, how come they are finding there remains with soft pliable tissues?

“People travel to marvel at the mountains, seas, rivers and stars and they pass right by themselves without astonishment.”

Augustine of Hippo was correct then, and he's still correct.
Except that in the 1600+ years since Augustine first wrote about the human condition - totally depraved and in need of divine saving grace - people today marvel at technology more than they do the great outdoors. I would argue, as one who ministers and counsels with others in spiritual matters, this hasn't been as positive a progression for our minds, bodies, and souls as today's philosophers tell us. Not hardly. For those unaware, the broken, hurting, suffering, and grieving are piling up and the compassionate support persons are jumping ship. The task is too immense and most days it seems endless and thankless because today more than ever, the broken and depraved (us) cheer the results of their life choices to the detriment of themselves and their families. I have seen this 1000 times and I will see it again where a person will perish rather than repent of whatever it is that got them in a no-win spot in the first place.
Augustine was correct then and he's still got us humans pegged 100%.

This thread has been an enjoyable read because of all the various thoughts and post opinions. Ain't it grand we're not all alike!
Fruit, vegetation, trees, great sea monsters, every living creature, birds, cattle, beasts of the earth, and all the creeping things were/are created to multiply after their own kind. Pretty straight forward science to those of us who know a bit about scientific reproduction.

But humans are the only creatures to have a different "multiply" schema according to God's Word.
So dinosaurs are real, but how long ago they roamed the earth I don't care because today's situations will be all I can handle anyway, and I'll marvel at the people who God has made in spite of us and our grumbling nature.

Genesis 1:26-27 is vital to knowing "Why?" we humans are here and dinosaurs are not.
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

You see, it's not dinosaurs arguing when humans roamed the earth. It's the other way around. Humans are vital to God's Plan of Redemption and Restoration of the earth, but dinosaurs must not be.
Or just like the nation of Israel, who God Himself chose, and who again occupies a "land" after nearly 2000 years of having "no land" (as the prophets wrote long ago) .... dinosaurs would still be roaming.
God's Plan has been revealed to us >>>> The God-man named Jesus did rise as the first to defeat death and rise from the grave after being dead, dead, dead, and the reason people like us can post on this trapping forum, can trap in the 1st place, and can enjoy each others company..... is by God's Grace alone.

Thank God for rainbows!
Blessings,
Mark

I found this
https://www.icr.org/article/a-30-years-later-lessons-mount-st-helens

I know the feeling Grandpa Trapper !

I quit after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th,5th,6th,7th and soon I will be quitting the 8th and looking forward to the 9th, lol.

Interesting read. So much for, "the science is settled" arguement.

So I read the article, I was looking for an actual source for the scientific data. The problem though is when I found the specific subject we are talking about, the source they quoted was an earlier article that they published, no citation of the actual study that dated the rock. That is not honest science and is typical of my experience reading young earth "science" literature.
Furthermore regarding other subjects that the article talks about such as the rapid build up of sediment layers after the eruption; they act as though it's a new discovery that proves some of their points. They know full well this isn't new information. Just one example is the Katmai eruption in about 1910 in Alaska also left new sediment layers hundreds of feet thick very rapidly, this geological event has been well studied for decades.
Every geologist knows that there are sedimentary deposits that where the evidence shows the sediments accumulated very rapidly, and there are sedimentary deposited that formed over long periods of time.

Science says the earth is 4.5 Billion years old. Carbon dating is fairly accurate to 50,000 years.

Where you are seeing that soft dinosaur tissue has been found?

[/quote]


I find it ironic how a scientist that has finding that blow current scientific facts out of the water will be so mater a fact about how old the Rick's and bones are.

Of course the dino bones are 65+ million years old Providence Farm because that is how old the rocks it is found in are! Sarcasm Font on.

Very interesting youtube video, not new news. Watch clear to the end it is interesting to hear her quote and young earthers twisting and misusing her research.

I don't quite understand your point. Geologist don't use carbon dating to date rocks, as you correctly point out. Carbon dating only works out to 50,000 years at most.
What I find amusing is that young earthers admit that carbon dating only works to about 50,000 years. There are many things that we can fairly accurately date out to at least 20K-30K years. So if the young earthers are willing to conceded that, then how can they insist that the earth is only 6000 to at most 10,000 years old?

That's the ironic part. Before her mistake of leaving the bone in acid to long lead to her discovery of the soft tissue saying there was still soft dinosaur tissue was down right impossible crazy talk. Everyone knows that is not possible. Yet she is still dug in and entrenched on the age of said bones.... OK.

I was just pointing out his numbers are wrong.

IF there is surviving soft tissue, that still doesn't necessarily disprove an old earth; even soft tissue remaining in fossils just thousands of years old would be astounding.

They have also found soft tissue in the horn of a tricertops from the same formation. Link below.

Soft Tissue in Tricertops Horn

He is a scientist who is funded by religious right so what do you expect him to say? Anything else and he would be looking for a job. And before you say anything some on the other side are just as bad.

Thanks for the video link grumley; I always appreciate your posts.

rex, I agree with your statement, but I think you are wrong about SOME on the other side. Its pretty much an iron wall in academia. You either adhere to this doctrine on this side of the wall or else. If one suggests a hypothesis on the other side of the wall, then they are completely disbanded.

I think the Intelligent Design scientists are a bit more open minded and would like to have a place at the table as for as ID is concerned, but modern academia won't allow that.

Okay, so if the earth is young, let's carbon date some of this dinosaur soft tissue and it should be less than 10,000 years old. Carbon dating work on relatively young organic material.

The guy in the video sort of betrays why he can't believe in an old earth. From 1:50 minutes to the end he basically says that for evolution of non-life to a living thing it would take a long, long time. That is his unfounded fear. Regardless, it doesn't matter how much time you give it, you can't get life from non-life.

When do we get to the "Gap" theory?

Waggler, you and I have had this discussion on another thread long ago. When you post, I pay attention and read what you say because I respect you. But, you keep putting the topic back to the age of the earth (old earthers and young earthers), you have made points about an old earth that I can certainly not disagree with; however, I have made posts that you can't argue with either. I though do not accept that the earth is millions of years old, but rather thousands or tens of thousands. One, or perhaps both of us is correct; I don't know.

But this is not a topic about the age of the earth, but rather dinosaurs. There is evidence coming out since 2010 that dinos have soft tissue. In your above post, you say then we should C-14 date those dino bones. Well, believe it or not ID scientists have already sent their specimens off to academic labs known for accurate C-14 dating. Like all labs, they did not need to know what they were dating, they just need the specimen and date it. Well, guess what, the dino bones got a C-14 date! How is that possible if they are 65+ million years old and C-dating only works to about 50K years due to the half life of Carbon?

Well, it must be a sampling error then if that date was correct. The sample was contaminated so they say. Mainstream science shrugged this off as kook creationists up to their old habits. But the question remains.
So to lay the cards on the table, the ID/Creation scientists went to every museum in the world and and asked them to put their money where their mouth is and allow some of their dino specimens to be Carbon dating.

Guess what! They were continued to be called kooks because nobody in their right SCIENTIFIC mind would subjugate a specimen that is already known to be millions of years old to Carbon dating. So the debate will continue.

On the other hand, when I'm having some beers with my atheist evolutionist friends, Their explanation to me was that some along the lines of "there is no use in arguing with a pig; for he he will get you down in the mud and make you look stupid" Something along those lines.

Regardless, I am not stupid and neither or you. There are questions that need answering, and it is my OPINION that mainstream science and academia is deliberately distorting the TRUTH.

The DINO bones speak for themselves.

HA!

There you are Mark. Given your previous posts on this thread, even you don't won't to dabble with this topic. To many mainstream Christians cannot fathom the the thought of humans and dinos living together. Can't have a preacher believe in such nonsense. I mean that with the absolute utmost respect for you Mark. I love you contribution here.

[quote=wildlifeartist1]young earthers are my favorite just so miss lead by 1/4 truths if that is even a thing? dinos and people existing at the same time really----and on the ark ...yup
don't you think they would have been talked about buy everyone on the earth. --even before the floooood let alone after oh hey look theres an allosaurus ---RUN----
O never mine those sharp teeth are for eating watermelons
panda bears have sharp teeth and they just eat bamboo ya and 12 molars to grind it up and a digestive system to handle it
where is all the evidence like drawings ,sculptures more literture stories of battels being eaten by dinosaurs anything...
how about eating them taste like chicken well they should they are birds now.
you know when science gets it wrong who figures it out and fixes it scientist [/q
Pretty rabid response. I wonder if you are willing to respond to my previous question from yesterday?

i was juast wondering about what you hold to be christian and what kind of studies you have had? You said you were a christian for 30 years and serious study for the past 10.

Chancey,
You said:
But this is not a topic about the age of the earth, but rather dinosaurs. There is evidence coming out since 2010 that dinos have soft tissue. In your above post, you say then we should C-14 date those dino bones. Well, believe it or not ID scientists have already sent their specimens off to academic labs known for accurate C-14 dating. Like all labs, they did not need to know what they were dating, they just need the specimen and date it. Well, guess what, the dino bones got a C-14 date! How is that possible if they are 65+ million years old and C-dating only works to about 50K years due to the half life of Carbon?

Two points, 1) Yes, this should be about dinosaurs, a very fascinating subject; however, young earthers always want to use the topic of dinosaurs to justify their earth age ideas. That's where we get derailed.
2) I did not say we should carbon date dino bones; I said we should carbon date the soft tissue. You can't carbon date fossilized bone (rock), but you could carbon date the organic soft tissue, and if it is as the young earthers believe, this soft tissue should yield a date of less than 10,000 years.

It kind of irks me a bit when young earth organizations will quote secular scientists when it supports their particular argument, but then paint them in a sinister light when they don't agree with them.

I'll bet everyone on here believes the science that says O.J. killed Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.

I believe the science that Oj killed Nicole and Ron.
I do not however believe the "science" about climate change and the end of the world.
The one thing that science must rely on is that everything now is the same as even 6000 years ago- ie the rate of carbon decay is a constant. However, a pre-flood world could have had a vastly different rate of decay.

Waggler my friend, you are running yourself in circles with this topic.

I'm pretty certain that the stuff inside the bone has a very high probability of being the same age as the bone itself.

^^^^^^
My point exactly; therfore by using carbon dating on the organic soft tissue you will then know how old the mineralized bone is. Why aren't they carbon dating the soft tissue? Maybe they have??

There was sure signs that dinosaurs were talked about much and walked here with man and then evolved into dragons. If it wasn't true, how could they have made the movie Dragonheart ? Dragons were real, they was everywhere until they became extinct from over hunting. Wasn't it a flying dragon that Noah sent out to search for land?

It was my carnal side made me post this poke the bear Chancey.
Your posts are always respectful and edifying to believers (as we are called to be), yet engaging and thoughtful. Which is called debate, argument, or apologetics... all of which Neo-atheists consider babble and proselytizing but then again modernists consider any poke of their bear to be an affront to their faith in whatever they believe in. So they mock and scoff as mockers and scoffers have done since the time when Adam and the women made from his rib set their own course apart from fellowship with their Creator.

Oh, and I believe the earth is as old as the Bible records, formed in days we don't know the duration of (I affirm literal days),
and that Christians do the world no good when Christians do the things of the world such as "presupposition."
So we turn to God's Word for clarity...
not to make our name great to the world by shouting that we know something but rather that we are falling in love further with the someone Who's name is above all names!

So, as scientists and theologians debate the age of the earth we know there are 75 clearly defined generations listed in the Bible - from Adam to Jesus - helping us KNOW that Jesus was of human descent from the seed of David through Mary (Eli was her progeny in the physician's recording in Luke 3:23) and that Jesus is the Seed of the Woman written of/prophesied in Genesis 3:15. The Savior who fulfilled the 500 prophecies and Law of the Old Testament prophets.
THAT is the narrative plot of the ENTIRE biblical story and so when we debate how old creation is, we must not miss WHO created it. And WHY!
For God's Glory, not ours.

So as a scientist and theologian, academically trained in both 40 years apart, me and mine will keep our focus on what happened to a 33 year old on a cross on May 13, @ 3:00 PM, 33 AD when He said "It is finished." The Greek word written by the Apostle John in 19:30 to describe the crucifixion scene was tetelestai, which was written in the Greek passive voice, meaning the action was done TO JESUS.
By who? Well, 700 years before the crucifixion on May 13, 33 AD, the prophet Isaiah wrote of this suffering servant and all that would occur.

And all of this is the story of how much God loves those who He makes.
It's foolishness to the unbeliever because who would send their son to die for sinners? I wouldn't. Would anyone on this forum arguing about how long ago dinosaurs roamed?
If it's thousands or millions of years, does it really matter to a family sitting in the PICU with their child?
Or to the family trying to figure out how to deal with an abusive member?
Or to the family so addicted to their mobile devices they don't even know each other?

I know God is slow to anger, long suffering, and abounding in love because their hasn't been another flood to start over.... and over..... and over again.
Like I/you/us deserve just about every day.

I like dinosaurs. I had plastic ones as a kid and I play with some still with the grand kiddos.
How old the real ones or the plastic ones are, I DO NOT care, because the real joy is in front of me when I have my grand kiddos to play alongside, all the while knowing how all this is held together.

Blessings brother!
Mark

I've always thought the creation story, including the dino's, was about who created the earth. Without belief in the Creator there's no belief in the Son of the Creator. As for the ark, man has the ability to carry both male and female of every species in something I would figure as small as a briefcase, why then would God not have the ability to do the same on a ark?

For the last week I've been digging a water pit. We are down about 50 feet and finding fossils. I've found see shells pressed into rock and found some leaves which I assume is seaweed. What I find hard to beleive is that there's 50 feet of overburden on top. Lots of power in the glaciers move that move that much much dirt. Climate is real but it is a natural occurrence.